By cost, I'm not just talking about your ingredients, your cost of goods, your heat, your electricity, your boxes and flour, you know, all those things, but the cost on your life, how much it takes away from your family or your personal life, the tax that it plays on your mental clarity, focus, health.
That all plays into it when you are an entrepreneur and we don't think to charge for stuff like that really just examining how do you pay yourself what you are valued and not just cover your cost of goods but actually make a livable income and then price to that.
I'm Becca Pountney, wedding business marketing expert, speaker, and blogger, and you're listening to the Wedding Pros Who Are Ready to Grow podcast. I'm here to share with you actionable tips, strategies, and real life examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level. If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business, doing what you love, then you're in the right place.
Let's get going with today's episode. Today, I'm chatting with Jenae Cartwright, the founder of Cake and Crumble. Based in Seattle, Cake and Crumble is a totally gluten free bakery, creating wedding cakes, dessert bars, and lots of lovely treats that they supply wholesale to local coffee shops. I got the pleasure of meeting Jenae in person during my recent trip to the States, and I cannot wait to introduce her to all of you too. Jenae, welcome to the podcast!
Thank you, Becca! Actually, really an honor to be on here.
I'm really honored to have you. I'm really excited to get into this conversation because we started a conversation about your business and about the gluten free world of baking over a drink in a rather nice hotel in Las Vegas. And I decided we needed to bring this conversation out for everyone else to hear it as well.
Absolutely. I, I think you're spot on.
Perfect. Now, before we get into that though, I want to tell the listeners, let them into our secret because we met in real life out in Las Vegas and it was kind of an unbelievable moment. I'd only just arrived in Las Vegas. I'd only just arrived to this conference with all of these people. And you tell the listeners in your own words, what happened? Yes.
Well, I think for both of us, it was kind of surreal. I was minding my own business, just checking in at the wedding MBA, and I'm, I'm looking down at my name plate and all of a sudden the most distinctive, fresh, spring like voice It comes out of nowhere and like chills went down my spine. I was like, this, this has to be Becca. And I turned around and there you are. So you know, your voice recognition. And what's so funny is, you know, it's the wedding conference.
It shouldn't have been surprising to find you there. You're in England, right? You're in England? Yes. I'm in America. It was just kind of an out of body experience for me. So, I yelled your name like a, you know, Taylor Swift fangirl. And, like a Swiftie. Oh, the look on your face was priceless too, because it was that moment of like, oh, somebody knows me.
Yeah, I was taken by surprise. And you know what's funny? I'm like, how does someone know who I am? But it was really funny because I got home and I was talking to my husband and I was like, it was so cool. And like, Janae just spoiled me and she knew who I was. And now my daughter keeps telling everyone, mommy's famous in America.
Brilliant. I'm so glad that I could offer that. Yeah, I mean, you know, after taking I just, I feel like I'm Got a, an English family after spending so much, you know, training time with Lauren and hearing you and taking your, your Pinterest class and listening to your podcast. It's, you know, it's that fake sense of familiarity. And so, yeah, I accosted you because you were already my BFF.
Well, it was fun because now we're actual real life friends and we got to hang out in Las Vegas. And exactly. And hopefully we'll get to do it again soon. And now you're on the podcast too. So, you know, Jenae, dreams really do come true. Okay. So let's get back to the job in hand. Enough joking around. Let's get back to the job in hand.
So let's go back to the beginning of your business journey because I want to, I want you to share how you ended up in this business that you find yourself in now and why you decided to go down this route of making everything gluten free.
Oh, it's beefy. Well let's see here. I was trying to think what year it was. I have to count backwards. It might've been 20 It's about 11 or 12 years ago, our, I was clipping along with life. I had just left the banking world to spend more time with my kids and kind of take care of some other people's kids. I used to be a bank manager and we're just kind of trying to find some purpose. So I was.
It's trying to find some purpose and our daughter who was three at the time was suddenly diagnosed with celiac disease and didn't know what that was. It was this random test that she'd had taken and we kind of didn't believe it at the time because it was so. It just seems so out of place, but lo and behold, she had it, and within seconds, our world changed.
It, it actually was right before Thanksgiving that it all really came down, and so, you know, I had my pie recipe out on the counter and was getting ready because I love to bake. I used to, used to kind of be in the world of kitchen tools, and it was, for lack of a better word, it was just really traumatic. I tried making my mom's. amazing banana bread recipe with some local, not local, but you know, just like a grocery store, gluten free flour. And it was disastrous.
It was just the most disgusting thing. And I thought if I can't even make my mom's banana bread, what is the purpose of life? You know, it was really, I mean, when food is so nostalgic and unfortunately sugar is the queen of. You know, nostalgic food. And so anything baked just became really a real a real sore spot.
And so we went through the evolution of, you know, one year I found a gluten free bakery and got a cupcake went across, you know, town and got her a single cupcake so that she could take it to a birthday party for some little kids. And when I went to pick her up from that party, I'd spent an atrocious amount of money on this cake.
rather not good cupcake and then I walked in and all of the children had left their cupcakes on the Table to go play but all the frosting had been eaten off And so I was like, okay, so when her first birthday being a celiac came around we didn't have any cupcakes We just had frosting. I've had bowls of frosting with sprinkles because the first of all, you know, I was like, Oh, that's what the kids really want.
But second, I was still really terrified of gluten free baking and realizing that no matter what I made, it was just going to turn out like crap. And so anyway, that was kind of the beginning of the journey. And, but I have this personality that is just always driven to. Discover more to tackle problems. I don't like taking no for an answer when it comes to subpar things. So I was like, I've got to be able to tackle this or I won't survive.
And so I just started practicing and tweaking things and reading up as much as I could on anything I could find. You know, a decade ago, there was not as much information about gluten free as there is now. It's, it's really changed quite a bit, but. Even before me, the frontier for gluten free knowledge was pretty slim. So grocery stores, I still get post traumatic stress disorder going into grocery stores. Even though there are things now that are labeled gluten free.
So, anyway, the trauma around that was just a lot to tackle. And as I got better and better, people started Reaching out to me and asking, Hey, can you make this for me? Or, Hey, how can I make this better? Or I'm at the grocery store. What should I get? And then I would hear of another parent who their child had celiac.
And so I would talk with them on the phone for hours, counseling them on how to change out their cookware and how to have two peanut butter jars and, you know, don't use the same toaster and just all the different things. And one day I said, that's enough, let's, let's do something about this. How about I just open a tiny little bakery out of my home and make birthday cakes for people and try to get into coffee shops where they could have a fresh baked cinnamon roll.
And that was the beginning of madness. That's the short story.
Just a little bakery. That was the dream at the time. And I mean, it's really inspiring, isn't it? Because you do it even now. I know there's a lot more gluten free offerings, but now you go into the supermarket, there's that tiny little section of the store where it's like, this is the gluten free section. And there's the same three cupcakes that they can always, yep.
When it is kind of sad, you know, there's, there's a family member that I have that is celiac and every birthday, whatever the cake is, this poor child just has the same cupcake on the side of the big old cake. So I love that you saw that and you wanted better for your own child, right? What mom doesn't want better and therefore you could start to serve other people. So you had this idea of, of making it into a business. Where did you find your first customers?
Ooh, well, it, as I said Okay. Interestingly, she was diagnosed around Thanksgiving, and the state of Washington finally allowed me to, they like, made me an official business as it was nearing Thanksgiving. So my very first orders were Thanksgiving pies. I offered a few, I had some orders for apple pie and pumpkin pie and cherry pie. I believe that was the first, that was the induction.
And then the type of license that I have to work out of my home here in the States, or at least in Washington state, there's two types. You can either have a cottage food permit, which you must use your home kitchen, your personal home kitchen to do your work. But then there are limitations surrounding. The amount that you're allowed to do, the types of food, how much money you can make in a year. It's really meant for like small operations, farmers market type stuff.
And then there's a food processor license, which is, you're basically a food manufacturer. And even though it's a small operation, I could easily simply transfer this to maybe like a warehouse. But you have to do wholesale. And so, I put my big girl panties on, and went to a local bakery, kind of bakery, coffee shop, and sat down with her, and offered her to taste my cinnamon roll, and some muffins, and some cookies. And we sat there for the longest time.
She, I could tell she was afraid to taste it in front of me. And I was like, I get it, I get it. There's just such a stigma. So I said, I'm going to go use the restroom. Why don't you taste it? And I'll be right back. And when I came back and sat down, she just stared at me. She said, I have to admit, I was so, so afraid to eat this, but this is. This is actually delicious. I can't even tell this is gluten free. Let's do it. Let's start right now.
So that was my first coffee shop and now I have 20 with a wait list.
That's amazing. And let's just dig in a little bit while we're on that subject because I know there'll be Kate, people listening and possibly other types of supplies as well, who have Thought about going to down the wholesale route or thought about approaching cafes, but are too scared to do it. Like, how have you gone about growing that side of your business?
I, my, my official advice is run, run away. Don't do it. Was that surprising? No, it, it's actually a wonderful thing. I yeah. The way you go about doing it is find your local city and state or province, you know, wherever you are in the world. Find your local governance on what they will allow you to do. And even have a game plan for how ramped up you want to make that. Because we figured we would have a few coffee shops that we would work with.
And then would, you know, have the recipe custom cakes and such. But last year, two years ago, my husband put By himself, 50, 000 stickers on clamshells over the year that would go out to the coffee shops. That's usually when you're at that stage, you've got some automation and we do not have automation. We're putting it on ourselves. So, you know, I, I would, that's why I say run or be prepared with how you want to ramp up. But yeah, just start with finding your local, your local rules and.
Go from there and know what you want. You don't offer too many options. Start with three or four. Don't have more than six or seven. I have ten. Don't do that. But, you know, just offer a few things.
Okay, so you basically just reached out your comfort zone, reached out to some cafes and coffee shops and just asked for a meeting?
No, actually, the coffee shop that I told you about was the only one that I pitched. Everybody else came to me because word of mouth was. powerful. Everybody wanted a gluten free option.
Oh, it's interesting because one of the things I talk about when I talk on stage is about how important it is to know your niche and how if you become the expert in something, everyone will come to you because people have to have a reason. You have to be the go to person for something. And it sounds to me like Going down this niche of gluten free, obviously you didn't plan to go down that route. Some people would think, well, that's a bit scary.
It's a tiny little niche, but actually you've become known in your area as the go to person for that thing.
Yeah. I, I even, I get often asked, Oh, can you just make this? You know, regular for me. And the reality is I can write. I'm an avid baker. But I can't not for the bakery could do it on the side friend for friend, but the bakery must remain completely gluten free so that it's safe for someone with celiac disease. And so, yeah, sometimes having that. Really sharply defined niche is very freeing. It allows, it allows you to stay focused.
And it helps people to know that you're the go to person for that because actually, especially now, it's getting more and more important. All of these coffee shops need to be providing an alternative option for people and you're the obvious choice for them to come to, even if you're trying to run away from it.
Absolutely. And, and, you know, not to blindly segue into wedding cakes, but that's also what I'm trying to form with my, you know, the luxury wedding cake side of my business is I am your option. You know, if you want the best. Gluten free, non tasting gluten free wedding cake. It will look fantastic and it will taste more fantastic and there is no reason to attempt to just use some other bakery that can try to do gluten free. I am your option, you know, insert evil laugh.
I absolutely love it. And it's true because your cakes are beautiful. I haven't tasted one because you didn't bring any with you, but hopefully next time we meet, I will get, I will get the opportunity to taste it. So talk to me about weddings and how did you end up doing your first wedding cake? Because it's a far cry from doing wholesale. baked goods and birthday cakes.
Oh, it really is. I remember when I was meeting with a group of friends and you know, excited about sitting down with this wedding couple and unsure of what to charge. I grew up pretty, we didn't have a lot. We, we had to be really frugal with our resources. And so for me, the idea of spending a lot of money on anything is a little bit terrifying. And so I was really hesitant to charge too much. I just didn't know what that would be. But also I didn't really Know what my costs were.
So I, I was really worried about that, but at first wedding, I made way too large. It was a a cake that probably would have fed about 175 people, but there were only 75 people there. So that's okay. But yeah, it was, it was a fun experience. Very terrifying. I realized that transporting the cake was the most terrifying part of the entire process. And Oh, you know, it's, it's so funny all the things you learn along the way to, to make life easier, but I don't know.
So it's easy when people listen to a podcast and us talking to just assume that everything is rosy for you in your business. Oh, Jenae sounds like she's got it all together. Business came easy to her, but we know that the reality to that is a little different. We all have our ups and downs. So when you look back over your years in the cake business, what would you say have been some of the things that have been a struggle?
Well, the first one. Is not valuing myself enough. I think that the first struggle is just deep imposter syndrome. And I think that's really hard for any entrepreneur. I think another struggle is. It's just simply not having all the information.
And so you're winging it half the time, faking it till you make it or working in response mode rather than playing defense rather than offense, you know, just so many different things coming at you or you know, I think the biggest struggle that I still have today, I've been open seven years now and is wearing all the hats. That I think is the biggest struggle because I'm, I'm an artist and I am creative. I also have a business side of me. I mean, I managed a bank.
I was in charge of millions of dollars and customer accounts and emails and training people. You know, I can do all of that, but so often I feel like a failure on that end, which is why I have an accountant because you can't, even though you can be an expert at everything. You also should not spend all of your time on those things. And so I pick and choose which areas of my business I will be kind of letting go for a little bit while I focus on something else. And I hate that cycle.
So. You know, it's about learning who the other experts are that you can offload tasks to or things that they can focus their expertise on. So that's probably been the biggest struggle.
And I think that's a big learning curve for lots of people because at the start, we have to do everything because we've got no money coming in. And then as our businesses get more successful, we get busier and busier and busier. But letting go of tasks we know we can do ourselves and letting someone else do something which is part of our business baby is really, really difficult. Have you managed to outsource many things so far?
Yes, some. I do have an employee. She bakes, she does almost exclusively the baking for the wholesale so that I can focus more on weddings and custom work and the business side of things. I have an accountant. I have a virtual assistant. And who helps with emails and drawing out my proposals for wedding clients. So that's. That's definitely been really helpful. My husband and daughter get forced into things all the time as well. So it is helpful when you have a village.
You need to eventually because otherwise you will just burn out or you have to just stop your business growth because there is no way that one person can do all of the things and grow a big successful business. You will just hit burnout.
Well it's, it's not even just about burnout. Some of it is. Because you are the one, you know, you're, you're one employee with 17 hats, which is just not feasible in the world of business. So often creatives start a business because someone says, Hey, you should do this. You're really good at it. And so they don't have the skills to really. Ramp that up. And you know, I certainly, I didn't get a business degree. My, my degree is actually in psychology.
And then I've had a lot of training, hands on training in the culinary world. So that's really helpful, but you know, when you don't know how to run a business, that's why bakeries so often fail or any type of, you know, small creative business, because you have that creative side, but then can't execute, don't realize how you have to pay your taxes, you know, all the different things. And so Yeah. You have to lean on experts and give them the opportunity to shine so that you can shine.
It's way more freeing.
A hundred percent. I often use as an analogy when I talk about what I do, I'm like, I cannot bake. I'm known in my family for being an absolute disastrous baker, but what I can do is help a cake maker market themselves because I'm good at marketing. You're good at cake. I'm good at marketing together. We can work on this. I don't need to be able to make a cake to help you market your business. So yeah, we all have our own skills and we need to learn which ones we We can get from each other.
Now, you mentioned at the beginning, you have been working with Lauren here in the UK. She is a take coach for personal development. You've taken my Pinterest course. You've done listening to all my podcasts as well. Why do you think personal development has been important for you on your business journey?
Oh boy, probably one of the most important things without it, you, you just, you stay segment. beCause you're only working within the framework that you know every time I've taken training my business has Grown multiple fold, you know, i'm not gonna throw in numbers Because I don't know them because I'm not really a numbers person, even though I was a banker. That's not that's not scary With without it.
My business would be stagnant Not only does it just grow you richly But it it makes you look less like an imposter because you're actually doing the work. It's like It's like when you're 45 and you feel like you're adulting finally, you know, it just puts everything together.
Now, I want to get into a bit of a subject that we talked slightly about when we were in that bar I mentioned in Las Vegas, and that is competitors. Because as you said, when you first went into this world, there wasn't a whole lot of gluten free stuff. But right now it's kind of huge. More people are talking about vegan and gluten free and all these kind of things.
And I'm sure over the years you've seen an increasing number of competitors or people starting to move a little bit into your niche. How have you personally dealt with that and stayed in your own lane?
I think you have to be confident in what you offer because I actually have to celebrate when other bakers or bakeries Offer something that's gluten free. So here in Seattle, we have quite a number of options. And down in Portland, which is, I don't know, a couple of hours away Portland, Oregon, they also have some incredible options. You have to drive down to Portland for the best gluten free, deep fried donuts. And I have yet to do it, but I need a field trip.
But you know, I celebrate that because I think about my daughter. I don't want to be the only option out there because I cannot serve. Every client, every customer, every consumer, not only in the Northwest, but the world, right? We all want to think we can take over the world and the reality is the playground is huge. Share the playground and build each other up. I cannot thank enough a gal who was just closing her bakery as I was opening. That actually terrified me a little bit.
She had a brick and mortar store. I fangirled over her. She was a popular spot. She had spoken with a business coach and realized that she wanted to go in a different direction and to work on a cookbook and her flour blends and stuff like that. And so she was closing and she sat down with me. We had coffee and I think we talked for three hours without her support and her care, there was so many things I would have had to work harder for. And so I feel a deep sense of gratitude.
And a deep sense of obligation to those around me who also are either in the same boat or they're just starting out. And anytime I can share nuggets of wisdom, they're not going to take over my business. Because I have made a name for myself for who I am. And you know what I have to say? If they do, kudos! Because that means they're that much more talented, or they've done something so much more brilliant with their marketing that it drew people to them.
They must be doing something with their taste. That's fantastic. Again, they cannot own the market completely. Because It's not saturated, right? It's it takes a community. And I think when we build each other up rather than compete, our businesses flourish rather than one siphoning from the other. I just think when you've got that sense of community, everybody wins.
100 percent I totally agree with you. I'm all about community over competition. I think it's a really healthy outlook that you have to. And I think it's why you can own that market because it's a real story, right? You're not just Putting on gluten free because you thought it would sell. Like you have a genuine heartfelt reason why you are gluten free, why everything's gluten free. It's not just some add on because it's trendy. Like there's a heartfelt reason why you're good at what you do.
And also because of that, you have made sure your product is the best in the United States because you want the best for your own child.
Oh, my goodness. Yes. In fact, there's a yeah, I mean, friendly competition can spur you to do even greater things for yourself. It helps you not be complacent. There's a local bakery that just popped up. They're brick and mortar. They're in a local city, so they're somewhat close by and they're getting rave reviews. And Even though there's that, of course, we're all selfish, and there's that sense in me like, Oh no, somebody is getting rave reviews, you know, what about mine?
And you're like, okay, share the field, share the field. But My my other first reaction is excitement because that means when I'm out with my daughter I can go out and she can eat something safely. That's my whole goal. I want people to go to coffee shops I want people to be sitting at the wedding everybody eating the same wedding cake and then going Why is Janet eating the cake? She can't have gluten and then somebody say well because the cake is gluten free and then go what? Right.
I want that. So if a local place is offering something that she can go and have a lovely time I celebrate that but then at the same time when the person said that they really liked the cinnamon rolls there I was like nah. Mm hmm. Nope. I have the best cinnamon roll Wait, do I? Okay, it's back to the test kitchen. Let's see if we can make it better, you know?
So it's good to, it's good to, you know never become lazy, but yeah, you have to celebrate others success because you can enjoy it then as well. You can play a part in their success.
Yeah, absolutely. I totally hear you on all of those things. Okay, Jenae, what is next for you then? I know that you're always looking to the future, you're always looking to the next best thing. I know you're going to improve your cinnamon rolls, but what else is coming for Jenae in 2024?
Ooh, that is an interesting question. Full of possibilities, fear, anxiety, loathing. Did I say excitement? I think I did. All the things. Jenae is at a bit of a crossroads. Cake and Crumble has A lot of possibility, and I'm just trying to decide which is the best way. Remember how, you know, earlier I had said that focus is really important, and I've had a lot of changes. We've considered so many times opening a brick and mortar, but it is incredibly expensive to do.
And in this really volatile, you know, post pandemic market, it is just not that easy with supply chain and whatnot. So I'm certainly. Focusing on the wedding cakes and the luxury wedding cakes and traveling with wedding cakes again, because gluten free is such a niche market and it is really difficult to have continuity there. I, I travel with wedding cakes this last year. I was down in Dallas.
I when we were down in Las Vegas at the MBA, I took a. a faux, like a dummy cake for a luxury styled wedding shoot down there. And so I want people to know that they don't have to be limited to what's in their local market if it's not going to cut it for, for what they want. So I do travel, which is a lot of fun. But so focusing on that and I don't know, teaching, you know, I, I actually, before I became a psych major, I did start an education and I, I love to be upfront.
I love to be the center of attention. You know, you know what I mean. You, Becca, will walk into a room and just instantly you know, the charisma's there. And I kind of have that too. I love to make people feel comfortable. I love to inspire people. And so, I, I want to move into the education realm. And I'm, I'm really trying to discover what that's going to look like.
Originally after Caitlin was diagnosed, there was so much fear and trauma and confusion even for the people in her life, her teachers, her aunts and uncles, her grandparents, playdates. Sleepovers, you know, all the different avenues in which she could be in a really dangerous environment. And so I've kind of wanted to put a series together on how, how to approach people, how to sit at a restaurant and order.
And there's books, but you know, a lot of people don't have time to sit down and read a chapter book. So I'd love to be more interactive, do coaching, even, even fly in and. teach people about their homes, work through their kitchens help bakeries know how to put out an excellent gluten free wedding cake or just a custom cake or a cinnamon roll, like consultation basis type stuff. I, you know, I, I dream. I'm a bit of a dreamer. So.
I love it. I think there's a definite market for it. You could be the super, super nanny of the gluten free world where you go in and you advise and you help people. Yes.
What can we, how can we, like, play off that? Super, super maid? No. What's a kitchen? Not a nanny, not a, not a maid. Super cook?
I think we need to work on the names, that is not an area of business that I'm good at.
Oh, yeah.
We're not there yet. Well, we'll watch this space. I'm excited to see what you do next, Jenae, because I agree, you have got the charisma, you've got the knowledge, you're amazing at baking cakes, and I think that very soon you'll be able to announce that you're not only the best gluten free wedding cake, in the United States, but in the world. And I truly believe people will fly you out to the other side of the world to make a beautiful gluten free wedding cake.
And I hope it's in England so that we can hang out too. Now, you know, I always end the podcast with the same question and I'm going to pose that to you now, which is this. What's one thing you personally wish you'd known sooner in your own wedding business?
This is gonna sound so cliche, but I wish I would've listened. More closely to the voices that that want you to watch your costs. And I also think that and by costs, I'm not just talking about. Your ingredients, your cost of goods, your heat, your electricity, your boxes and flour, you know, all those things. But the cost on your life, as far as how much it takes away from your family or your personal life, the tax that it that it plays on your mental clarity, focus.
Health that all plays into it when you are an entrepreneur and we don't think to charge for stuff like that Lauren's class was so helpful in that really just examining. How do you how do you pay yourself?
what you are valued and not just cover your cost of goods, but actually make a livable income and and then price to that and I think you know, unfortunately, it's it's not about money, but When you're working, it is nobody works for free, you know, Boeing, the people don't go in there because they just feel altruistic about playing parts. They, they go to make an income and the creative sphere is no different.
And so I think that, you know, sometimes I, it's what I want to be able to do is have the freedom to, to have the altruistic spin. When I, so when I can be philanthropic, you know, offer something for free or do something, I don't want to say the word discount. I hate that. But you know, really offer something that somebody can't afford.
I love to be able to do that when, when I can, but I, but I can't do that all the time or I will myself go out of business and then I'm not available to those customers that need me. So. I think it's just, it's balancing the, the cost with care for your, your self worth. Not self worth, but your, your worth as a business owner and an artist.
Such a good reminder, and I know there'll definitely be people listening that needed that reminder today to charge their worth and maybe even consider putting their prices up. J'Nai, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you today. If people want to find out more, chat to, or even order a gluten free wedding cake for their wedding in London, where's the best place for them to find you?
Oh, that's a great idea. London for sure. You can find [email protected] or on Instagram. You can find me at cake and crumble dot pnw. And of course, I'm on Facebook as well. I am still, you know, all those hats I'm wearing, still implementing. Becca's Pinterest. So yeah, that needs a little bit of work, but I am trying to focus on getting my, my Pinterest back up. And I'm sure that that's Cake and Crumble, maybe, dot PNW as well. I don't know.
I'll be sure to put the link to all of those places in the show notes so people can just go and click. Jenae, it's been so good. I hope to see you somewhere, somehow, in person again very soon. Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
I love that conversation with Jenae. Isn't she great? I'm so glad we got the opportunity to have that chance meeting at Wedding MBA and now we can actually be real life friends. I think she has so much inspiring things to share about the importance of niching, not worrying about the competition. Petitors and actually celebrating them and just reminding you to value your own worth. If you want to check out her cakes do go and take a look at them.
I haven't had the chance to taste them, but hopefully I will soon, but I do believe they are going to taste incredible. I'll see you next time.