Corporate jobs, family life and wedding photography with Kevin Lines

Let's get going with today's episode. Today I'm chatting with Kevin Lyons. Kevin is both a wedding and corporate photographer and is amazing at what he does. Based in Hertfordshire, but traveling all over for work, some of his clients have included John Lewis, Tesco, Porsche, and many more. I've known Kevin since he joined my Wedding Pro Members Lounge as a founding member back in 2019.

Most recently, I was thrilled when my friends chose to book him for their wedding, and even more thrilled when I saw the incredible photos. I'm looking forward to dive into his journey today. Kevin, podcast.

And the kids running around and it, yeah, it was just a brilliant day from start to finish.

Now let's move on because I like to take people right back to the start of their journeys because I think it's interesting for listeners to understand how someone's got to where they are now. So take us back, Kevin, back to the start. When did photography In general, become a career for you.

So I did that and then, yeah, kind of from there that I, I, I just kind of knew really that's what I wanted to do and it was just a case of trying to work out if I could kind of make a career out of it rather than it, it just being a hobby. So anyway, so I, I, I finished secondary school, and then I managed to get a place on a press photography course at Norton College up in Sheffield.

So, at the time they, the government were doing some kind of scholarship, so the course was quite expensive, but I actually got it for free, or paid for, which is really lucky, so I went up there and did that. It's kind of, it's quite funny actually, because I actually never finished the course, because the whole point of the course was to get a job. So I actually did kind of like 75 percent of the course and then left to get my first job.

Which was the point of it, I mean they're quite happy for you to do that, but yeah. It's always funny when I'm sort of like, yeah I did this course but I didn't actually finish it, but I got a job from it. Yeah, so I joined a photo agency in Hertford which, did a sort of various kind of, they did local news. corporate events and a little bit of sport photography as well, which was great fun.

Spent 10 years there and then unfortunately got made redundant because the local press at the time that it just, it, well, it's not there anymore. Advertising is all online now and all that sort of thing. So yeah, basically I, I got a, a fair bit of money because I've been there a long time. So I just kind of thought, Oh, do you know what? Let's give it a go, go out on my own. And here we are. I'm still here.

I mean, now, when I shoot now, I don't, I just move the dials, I don't really think about, it's just like muscle memory, if you see what I mean, and that all stems from there, they were quite big on that, and it's just sort of, it's hard to explain, but they sort of, they teach you about, watch what you're shooting, don't always look at the main thing, look what's developing off to the side, and again, you can kind of, you know, shift that over to shooting weddings, you know, you might

be, obviously you're there to focus on the bride and groom, but you might be shooting them just doing some candid stuff. And in the background, you know, I might say, Oh, you know, there's something, you know, cool developing in the background is sort of being aware of the entire you know, the entire scene rather than just one thing. And it's, it was just basically teaching awareness of that. And there was other things, sort of caption writing at the time, and, and little bits of pieces.

But yeah, it was mainly kind of, sending you out in, in and around Sheffield and, because they have lots of protests and sports teams and all this kind of thing, and you're allowed to kind of go out and just find your own, you know, stories and just be shooting basically.

And I'm guessing your background in press, you do only have that one moment. You've got to get the right photo at the right time. That that's, that's the definitely held you in good stead in weddings, I'm sure.

But it, it can actually, and anyone that's shot a wedding will notice it can be like, at the end of the day, you are mentally, you're completely drained mentally because you have to be switched on from, you know, nine, 10 o'clock, whatever time you get there, till nine or 10 in the evening. And there's always stuff going on. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a very. It is a hard job.

It might look easy on the, like on the outside of what you're doing, sort of physically it's not hard, but it definitely is very, it's mentally tiring.

At what point did weddings enter the picture for you as a photographer?

And I did it, and I kind of just really enjoyed it. It was something, as I say, I never really had any intention of getting into. I shot it and I found creatively is really sort of quite liberating because the thing with shooting press is that you're, you know, there's no room for that, that you can use create creativity in terms of your angles that you're shooting and how you approach it. But in terms of, you know, weddings just gives a whole bigger palette of creativity.

It was again another friend of my sister's actually needed someone and then it kind of It was so it's a long way back now So I can't remember exactly how it kind of panned out but I guess it was kind of just a snowball from that that you do that and then people that are there and That that's really sort of You can have your websites, but really word of mouth is, is, and people seeing you do it is, is your best kind, best type of advertising you, you, you can have.

Where your customers and clients have come from, where are your main sources that you think people find you from?

Really, for me, people always make a, a big thing of networking and now you've got to go to networking meetings, this kind of thing. I don't buy into that at all. For me, networking, we're networking. Now you're talking to people. That's all it is. You don't. Have to build it up to be this, this like thing you go and do. It's what you do naturally every day.

You know, when I pick my children up from school, you talk to the other parents in the playground, you're networking to a degree it, you have, you, you have to shift the mindset from it's something you've got to do where towards more, you do it all the time, just speak to people. You know, they might not need anyone tomorrow or in a month's time, but in a year or two years time, they'll remember you. Oh yes. That guy that does the photos, you know, you know, I'll chat to him.

And see if we can get something sorted out together. And that's it. There's no real, I don't spend any money really on advertising by my, my website. Cause I, well, one, I don't really understand it. I don't understand Google ads or anything like that. But to me, it's just, you don't, I think nowadays you're, you're often, whenever I log into Facebook or go online, there's someone saying, Oh yeah, pay me like, 200 and I'll tell you all these secrets. You don't need to do any of that.

I mean, fair play to people to do it and they're successful from doing it, but there's nothing you can't get for free from Google or speaking to other business owners. You don't have to have a big budget as well. I think that sometimes stops people. It's really be yourself, just talk to people and work will come your way if you do a good job.

And I reckon, and on the surface, none of them had anything to do with what I did. There was no wedding industry people there, but actually just talking to people and finding out what they did. I found some really interesting connections. I've got someone who was a comedian. They're going to come on the podcast and talk about adding humor into things. Actually, there's connections everywhere we go. We just need to be open to having them and open to talking to people. And there is no, secret.

There is no secret. No one go on the internet and pay thousands of pounds for a secret. There isn't a secret. There is help. There's accountability. There's putting yourself in the right rooms, but ultimately you've got to do the work. You can't just wake up one day and, and have this successful business. And I, you make it sound easy, but I know you have put lots of time and work into it. I think one of the.

things from when my friends booked you, because I obviously took a vested interest when I was sending supplies to people and they were making decisions. I was asking them, why are you, why did you make that choice? What were you looking for? And your website played a big part in it because they went onto your site. And obviously I pointed them in your direction. So that's the connection piece already. I put in them in your direction alongside about 10 other people as well.

They looked at your site. They really liked your images, which obviously as a photographer has got to be number one selling point. So if people don't have the best quality images on their site, that needs to change straight away.

And then the big thing as well was the pricing and the price transparency and being able to see exactly how much you charged, what you charged for a day, weekday wedding, because they were actually getting married on a Monday and just, they said it was just so refreshing that they could see everything straight away, could contact you. And then the rest is history. They liked you and they built you.

Again, everyone's different, I'm not saying that's the right way. And also the. It's perhaps easier for me to do because I don't really do packages because to me, you know, bronze, silver, gold is like, all right, better, best. For me, I can only give my best at every wedding. I don't have like a, oh, it's sort of like a half effort kind of thing. I give 100 percent at every one and that's it. That's the only way I, I kind of, you know, feel comfortable doing it.

I don't, I don't see how you can sort of be like, Oh yeah, I'll give like 50 percent effort at this one because you're only paying half what my full day is, or I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. It's, it's not easy. I mean, I think the secret is you just have to be yourself. And when you speak to clients, I kind of, I'm how I am with everyone, whether they're the top, the bottom, and at the end of the day, my photos are are okay.

There's lots of other photographers that have got better images than me, but I, I think people, I know it's a horrible cliche, but people do buy people and I think if you, if, if you are as a person, can make them feel relaxed.

You know, that, that is why people will book you, not because of your technical ability because there's so, I mean, if you see a wedding put on Facebook now, there's like 200 replies of photographers all say, all with like really good sites and their images are all amazing. There's, there's only one person going to be booked there. So you have to, the only thing, the only differential that you can have is you and your personality and how you are with them and how you make them feel.

And that, that really is the bottom line of, of I think how I get booked.

And you're right, because actually the general public, i. e. me, if I look at a photo, I couldn't tell you technically whose photos are better. I can tell you whether I like a photo or not, but that's personal preference. I can see when it's framed well, but the nuances that a photographer can see, I just can't see them.

And I think there's a lot of photographers, and I'm sure there's some listening that say, Suffer from that perfectionism, feeling like their work's not good enough, not putting it out there because it's not good enough. Whereas actually the general public, if you showed it to me, I would probably think it was amazing because I don't have the knowledge to know any differently.

And actually I think it's an income stream that people are quite often afraid of, or they don't really understand what it involves or how they get into it. So can you just give us. a little bit of a insight into what the differences are in corporate photography and how you find those connections and how you get those jobs.

Like this is going back, have a, have a business card, you know, it's all online now, obviously, but giving cards out left, right, and center. I, I got really lucky in that one of my best clients is Bedfordshire University and at the time when I left the paper, or the, the press agency, one of my friends was the marketing officer at the uni and kind of got me in there and he, he left after a year, but they kept me on and I'm still doing lots of work with them today.

So yeah, sometimes it is just pure luck at the time. But I've also, when I started out, I did do a couple of free jobs, which I know is generally like a big no no. But at the time, for my local council, it was a foot in the door for me. And again, I do a lot of work with them still now. And it's kind of, you have to judge, you know, is it worth doing this job for free? You know, only that person will know at the time whether they think that's worthwhile and there will be work to be done.

You definitely shouldn't do too much of it for free, obviously, but that kind of worked for me. Also, Friends of Friends got jobs at team building agencies and event agencies. And got me in there again. There's not really a kind of way I would get my work. It's just sort of a lot of my friends do video work as well. And they will obviously say, Oh, you know, you need a photographer yet. My guy, I'll hook you up and get work that way. Corporate stuff is different in terms of.

It is a lot less creatively. I, you'll go to a conference and it will just be shot for this speaker, shot for this speaker, shot for this speaker, people, you know, networking. And there's not that much room for creativity, but it's kind of, you are literally there to provide a service. You're creating content for them to put out on their socials within a defined brand style of whoever the client is, which is obviously completely different to weddings. For me, I enjoy it.

Cause it's, I've got to a point now where I, I, a lot of my clients are regular. So it's, I see people I know there and it's kind of, it's, it almost, it doesn't feel like work sometimes. And I mean, I've, I've done some bizarre jobs over the years, done crystal maze themed days. I've been in a crystal dome, had a go at that. That was cool. I didn't get a crystal though. What else have I done? Done like, I did a thing for P& O Ferries and it was like, they're AGM got cruise for you?

It's like a. Have I got, you know, have I got news for you? Kind of rip off on there. And quite often you're there doing these things and you're sort of like, I can't believe, I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this. This is so weird. But yeah, that, that's kind of, it is a completely different beast to weddings, but that's not to say if you, if you can do a job at a wedding, you can do a job in corporate, it's different, but it's not that different. You just have to.

adjust your mindset and your expectations of, of, of what you're doing.

So it is a slightly different mindset in that way, because you're much more likely to get repeat business. I'm guessing the time frames are shorted, you have to get the photos back to people a lot quicker?

And that just like, I can't even get my head around that. It has to be quicker than that, from my point of view, anyway.

Now, you don't need to go into detail about your rates, but how did you work out how to set a rate? Do you do a day rate, a half day rate? And how does that kind of compare to when you're pricing up a wedding?

Generally I have a kind of half day or a day rate, so you quite often get inquiries where they'll go, yeah it's only a quick like half hour job or something, it never is. It never is because it's a half day because by the time you've driven there or gone into London, if it's in London and you've had, it's always a half day. So that's, that's just nonsense. You never have a quick half hour job. So yeah, I kind of, and also balance it up. Do I want to do the job? Really?

If I do, then perhaps I might, you know, if it's a, I don't know, like someone, I really, a famous person that's presenting an award and the budget's not quite where I'd want it to be, but I quite want to shoot that person. And then perhaps I'll be like that. I'll, I'll do it. I mean, it, it, it's, it's a lot less defined than weddings and there's a lot of sort of, you might have to back and forth a little bit and kind of get a steer.

Generally, if someone's emailed you, they like your work, so you've got a bit of a kind of starting point that they obviously want to book you. But then there's some that you can, you can definitely tell it's just like a generic email that's gone round to several people and half the time I probably don't even reply to those. Because they're going to be just after the cheapest person how I got my rates in the first place.

I just kind of did a bit of research on other photographers sites because a lot of corporate photographers do have prices on their site or like a from, and just kind of, you, you get, you get a steer just from speaking to other people and often I've got a network of all local photographers and they'll be, Oh, I'm busy this day, could you maybe cover and the price will be this. And you can sort of just gauge roughly what they're. their prices are there. It's not an exact science.

It completely depends on the requirements of the job, how long, where it is. It might, you know, it might, I'm in Hertfordshire, but if it's a job right up north, then you've got to factor in that you're going to lose a day or half a day, sorry, traveling. And you've still got to be paid for that as well. Because when you're there, you're not, you can't be working on anything else.

So it's a bit of, Speak to the client, ask what their budget is and just kind of back and forth and see if you can agree on a figure. So it's not a very good answer, but.

You're doing weddings, you're doing corporate, you're doing headshots, you're doing all of these things. But I also know you're a family man. I often see pictures on Facebook of you at your kids football matches or going to watch Stevenage Town. So how do you balance it all? How do you keep that time with your family a priority as well as having all of this work?

Or, Both, both mine are in full time school now, so I obviously have a lot of time during the day that I can get my, my work done. But I, I just feel that they're only young for such a kind of small time. You don't want to waste it working, because work, work's important, but it's not that important.

So that's kind of, I often think like, what did I used to do before I had children? Because I had so much free, I thought I had so much free time, but obviously I have none now. I just, I just think it's, it's all individual. We are just a busy family and we're kind of cool with that. And that's how we've always been.

But as I say, I just don't work when they're here and try and they're, they've always got some kind of club or, you know, some, you know, you know, the drill, something or other for them to go to. So yeah, you just have to find the balance and, and make sure they're, they're like the most important thing and what some, some people sell, like my business is my life. My, mine isn't, mine is just, part of my life that I, that I use to earn money. And that, that, that's the reality.

Family is, is my kind of, is the most important thing as it probably is for, for most people.

But actually I'm trying to shift that mindset and think actually my works, I don't want my work to take me away from my kids. And I think when we realize actually what's most important in this situation, is it me sitting down on my phone and replying to emails, or is it be being present in the moment and taking them to every club under the planet, because actually one day in probably not that long, They'll be gone. They'll have moved out. They'll have moved on with their lives.

And that moment is, it's a cliche, but it is fleeting. And I can see it already disappearing in front of me. So I think if you're listening to this and you're in that struggle, sometimes it's just about readdressing it in your own head and realizing it's not your kids taking away. That's a choice you've made to have the children and like find ways to make your business work around your kids rather than the other way around.

And to be honest, I, I, I don't reply unless it's someone asking me for my bank details to pay me, then obviously I'll reply straight away. But but no, generally. email can wait and I reply in emails in sort of office hours.

So first of all, thank you for your loyalty, for still being around all these years later. I do appreciate it. For you, what is it about kind of being in a community or being part of the members that you've enjoyed over the years, even if you're not always around for all of the things, because there'll be people listening to this and thinking, I don't know why I should ever join a community like that. I don't understand what it's all about. What would you say to them?

I probably wouldn't have ever thought about it that way, but it's just cause you can, you, you can talk about work to your partner, but at the end of the day, if they're not in the industry, you're in there, you can only kind of. Listen and sort of they don't, they don't understand that is the bottom line. So just to have other, other people to understand your situation and what you're trying to do.

And you know, if you're struggling to get bookings or you've got too many bookings and you don't know how to deal with it, but also it's good to have a network, especially in a photography standpoint, you know, if you come down and you, you know, you break your leg in like before wedding, you need to have a network of people that you, you can trust and called up to cover you. Cause things will happen.

I remember once on a wedding in the very early days driving between the church and the venue, I got puncture and as it was, I did manage to get the puncture change and get to the thing, but I called someone to be at the venue just in case. And you know, it's things like that, a sort of a safety blanket if, if you like, because you can't do everything on your own. You've got to have a network around you.

It is kind of an insurance policy. You don't know that you need it until you need it. Like quite often I'll have members in the group that haven't been particularly active very much for ages or they may be dipping in and out of something and then something goes wrong or someone disagrees with their contract or, and they just don't know what to do. And then they're like, Oh, thank goodness I could reach out and talk to you about it.

So sometimes it's, it's just knowing that those people are there when you need them and you never quite know. when you might need someone. And also the Christmas party is always fun, Kevin, isn't it?

So actually it's a, it's a, it's a really good thing to get out and just see other suppliers that you might see all the time at weddings and you kind of, because you're both there doing your jobs, you don't get a time to talk, but you, you know, the socials, it's a good night and you can just have a chat and chat about stuff that isn't always weddings that you don't get time to when you see them at an event or a wedding.

Just make sure, you know, you've got a website that shows off your best stuff and use your kind of USP, which is you and your personality and how you are with people. That's kind of my thing that maybe I didn't do as much when I started out, but I learned quite quickly that's not a way to be successful.

You never know.

And in Becca's terms, that would be, I want action, not excuses. I'll see you next time.