That will help those situations because then you come at it from a place of calm that you can then rationally explain and come to a consensus on for a solution.
I am Becca Pountney, wedding business marketing expert, speaker and blogger, and you are listening to The Wedding Pros who are Ready to Grow podcast. I'm here to share with you actionable tips, strategies, and real life examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level. If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business doing what you love, then you're in the right place.
Let's get going with today's episode. Today I'm chatting with Jordan Kentris, founder of a good day based in Toronto. They offer wedding stationary styling and gifting services. Jordan is a true creative and has turned his creative passion into a successful business. Jordan, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me, Becca.
It's an absolute pleasure. So you are based out in Toronto, in Canada. Have you lived there forever?
Pretty much . I grew up in actually Vancouver in BC, so I've got the whole cross Canada.
We love it when we have people from North America on the podcast. So I have to ask you about where you live because US Brits are fascinated about all parts of North America, and I have actually been to Toronto once, so I've been up the Sien Tower.
Oh, very cool. I mean, we still use British spelling, so it's like we're twins.
Yeah, we, we love a bit of, the Canadian culture in the uk. Okay, so let's get back to what we're supposed to be talking about, which is weddings. So let's go right back. I would love to know before we dive into a bit more detail, how you ended up in the wedding industry in the first place.
I worked in advertising and was feeling a bit tired and and exhausted being on the computer all day, and I needed to start working with my hands again. I did a lot of art growing up and painting and crafting and all those kinds of things, and I actually started making paper jewelry. my husband was at the time obsessed with broaches, so I started making broaches and then my brother, Got engaged and I was like, oh my gosh, I would love to make your wedding invitations.
And that was a bug that got bit, the jewelry died off and then the wedding invitations kind of exploded.
So did you take a leap straight out of advertising or did you kind of build up the business on the side?
On the side. I actually kept up both of them because for me it actually to me makes me a stronger designer. In the advertising side, I do user experience design, so a lot of human-centered design. From an empathy perspective, I do a lot of research and day-to-day job is wireframes, so structures for websites, and so for me, it helps me when I think of the guest experience and how do.
Map through what a person goes through when they experience an event, what are the touchpoints from invitation all the way through to the end of the event. And so I use a lot of the same thinking that I do on a big brand's website as I do in an event, which is, you know, for me it's fun. A lot of people you're like, what? But I like it.
Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of coming together of two different parts. Business because we see in the wedding industry, people are really creative on the whole, people start the business because they are passionate about their creativity, which is exactly what you've said, but then they feel like they can't be good at the business side of it, which you are saying you're kind of marrying the two together.
So what are some of the pitfalls you see in the wedding industry with these creative type businesses?
Oftentimes, they are coming from a place of their own needs, and so sometimes we don't always. Understand exactly what our clients are looking for. We think we know what they're looking for. So we market to that and we position ourselves to that.
And so one thing that I've kind of honed on over the past few years as I've kind of merged my two worlds together more succinctly was doing a bit more research and understanding how my consumer finds me and who my clients are and where they shop, and all those things so that I can market to them in ways that are relevant to them. Versus how I think they want to be marketed to and how they wanna be sold to, and how they wanna be designed to.
So for me, that's an area that I see a lot of professionals tend to be like, well, I like the color pink, so my clients like the color pink. And so I'm just gonna keep pushing that. And you know, it doesn't always work.
So how do you think they can overcome that? Is it market research? Is it investigating?
It's definitely investigating. It's having those conversations with your previous clients, your existing clients, your prospects, even. It doesn't have to be a like one hour interview. Just even a couple questions can go a really long way, and just getting a little bit of insight and kind of bringing that relationship a lot closer quicker.
Oftentimes people do onboarding conversations, but it's typically like, what do you want your data look like and all that stuff, which is wonderful and absolutely necessary. But for me, I think it's really valuable to be like, tell me about a childhood memory that is gonna be impacting your event. And how did you two decide on the theme of the event? For me, from a design perspective, like, well, what do you like about it? Are you referencing art Deco because you love New York?
Or things like that in the work. And I start pulling from, Design references that aren't super literal within those conversations.
So digging a little bit deeper and trying to pull a little bit more information out of the couple in front of you rather than just doing the basics. Absolutely. Okay. So I have a lot of creatives in my world, and I know that there'll be some listening they're coming into my mind now who work in stationery, who work in styling and all those beautiful things that you do as well.
But I know that one of the things they struggle with is that they work really hard for very little money, and it's like they feel like they just can't charge their worth for what they're doing, and so they're just working all the hours and barely bringing in an income. Like what would you say to those people?
I've been there for a number of years. Things are a lot better now because I've started again, applying my advertising side of my brain to my creative side. And oftentimes in the advertising world, we charge an hourly rate. We have a very defined scope, and by that it would be, you know, we're gonna be doing two rounds of revisions, three concepts. Set number of pieces, set number of hours, and that is very defined. And we're like, no problem client, we're gonna come back to you for more money.
But for some reason, when it comes to events, oftentimes we're like, well, I don't want to go back to them and ask for more money if this costs me more money. But we didn't have that agreement in place. And so oftentimes we're conflicted in asking for what we're worth. I've also started charging a creative fee because I'm like, hello, that's my brain.
I. Mark up my invitations to the point where I'm doing something basic, but it costs $50 an invitation because they're gonna be like, why does it cost $50 an invitation? And I'm like, well that's because I wanna get paid what I'm worth. So I've just made the paid what I'm worth conversation a lot easier because then they're like, oh yeah, that's 10 hours of your time. I understand that we're gonna be talking a lot over the next year. That doesn't seem like a lot.
And then the invitations cost what they cost, you know, with whatever markup for all the other things that need to happen. But to me that is a lot easier of a conversation than when there's sticker shock in comparison. Cuz oftentimes they're gonna be going to a big box printer or any of those, or any other of my competitors and being like, well, they're foil invitations. Let's pretend $18 and yours is somehow $40. What is different about it?
And I'm like, well, it's paper . Like you really fall down in that conversation and you lose a lot of the bargaining conversation within there. I'm not saying I wanna barter my services, but there's less wiggle room when there's. No clear way why something is marked up substantially different than another.
That's really interesting, and I think a creative fee is a really great idea because that is what you're selling, your creativity, your ideas. That's something that someone can't copy. So if you're listening to this and you've been struggling with this yourself, then that could be something to explore. Now, another thing that I know these creatives struggle with immensely is perfectionism. So I look at what they do and I look at what you do, and.
Think is incredible because I could not design something as incredible and as intricate as that, but then they look at it with their eyes and say, yeah, but this bit wasn't great. This bit didn't go very well. How do you, how have you got over that, or how do you deal with that in your business?
I've really started to adopt the mantra of, you know, done is better than perfect. I could spend literally days, doing little, little minutiae, but it doesn't bring me any additional revenue. It doesn't bring me joy in the sense in the long run, it makes me happy because I love that kind of obsessiveness of my. But ultimately, if I look at the grand scheme of things, if I'm spending that much time, I start making, you know, pennies on the dollar for everything I bring in.
And then when you start factoring that in, you're like, oh, holy cow. Like I had a, a project a number of years ago, which I did not price correctly. This is my first really big job of that scope. and when I sat down at the end of the day, I covered my material costs, but I literally made like 2 cents an hour for three months of work. And so, you know, it was a very hard experience for me to realize that because at the time I loved it and I really wanted to do a great job.
And. You know, make the planner that I was working with really happy and proud and excited and we built a really strong relationship. But you know, that job also almost cost me my relationship, because I was so obsessed over it that I wasn't doing all the other things I needed to be doing. There are caveats you have to kind of weigh in, pros and cons.
There was, you know, other work that I dropped, other clients, sacrifice to do those things, and that ultimately impacted some other relationships. And so you have to start to balance those, those needs.
Yeah, that's some really helpful advice, which brings me onto the topic that I really wanted to be talking to you about on the podcast today, which is burnout. So we are thinking about these creative business owners. We've talked about how they're working hard for potentially not very much money. They're completely overwhelmed with perfectionism, and then that can lead for some of them wanting to just. And give up and burn out and fall out of love with what they're doing.
So when it comes to burnout, how on earth do we even identify it?
For me, it's a few different ways. Sometimes I, I experience burnout. I experience it usually every couple years, , it just happens. It's kind of not inevitable, but when you have practices in place that are not healthy, you can tend to overextend yourself. For me, it shows up in a couple different ways. One is I completely lose focus. And so I may be like, well, I should sit down and work on this.
And then it takes me seven hours to do something that normally takes me 15 minutes because I'm distracted. I'm kind of stuck and I'm trying to just push ideas out, but nothing is really coming out and I'm like, I am not loving any of this, even though they may be really great ideas. I'm just in a place of like, well, this isn't challenging enough for me. This isn't where I want to be, and it's not in a healthy, like, I'm gonna keep pushing myself. I'm just like, this isn't right.
This isn't right. This isn't right. This isn't right. And I'm like, okay, I'm not getting anywhere. And now I've chewed through my creative fee , and then I'm still nowhere. And so that is one way the, there's a few other, like for me, I can work myself until I get. That is another sign of burnout where I am pushing myself past my boundaries. You know, working late, getting up early to do work, not necessarily, you know, enjoy my life.
The other side is, you know, relationships with friends and family, you know, dwindling. Where I am solely focused. I mean, I'm pretty sure many of us have experienced that over the past few years with the influx of a massive amount of work that kind of smacked us all at the same time. And that to me was okay for a period of time, but after a certain point you're like, okay, I need to start resuming a life. I need to be able to disconnect from my work so that I'm not so honed in that.
That is the only thing I'm focusing on.
Yeah. There's gonna be so many people that are gonna be resonating with some of the stuff that you're talking about right now. Because again, I think as creatives and as entrepreneurs, we definitely push ourselves too much. We put so much pressure on ourselves to get it right, and it's very easy for us to end up in these scenarios. And I know lots of people listening and myself included, have definitely experienced some of that.
So if we have, we are resonating with this and we're thinking, actually that's describing where I am right now as I listen to this podcast. What could we do to address that?
So the first thing I, I typically like to look at from a project perspective is how do I manage this relationship with this client and this amount of work? Oftentimes I get overwhelmed and then I'm like, I don't know where to start. So for me, it's about breaking all the pieces down and putting a, a foundation and a plan in place that is reasonable for where I'm at currently.
Have an honest conversation that, you know, maybe you need a little bit more time, maybe you're not able to deliver that full scope and see where they're at. You know, oftentimes we will. Kind of suffer in silence where we're like, well, they're gonna be upset at me, so I can't go back to them and ask them for more money, or I can't go back to them and ask for more time. I mean, if you have a wedding on Saturday, you can't really ask for more time.
You gotta see what you can do within that reasonable amount of time. Bring in some support. I mean, honestly, the friends that I've been able to lean on when I'm in my most dire need. I was very surprised that they would sacrifice so much time to just come and help me which chose the relationships that we've had. But, and it wasn't me asking, it was my husband who was like, just go ask your friend. And I was like, no, no, I can't ask them. Like, I've got all this stuff to figure out.
And so I asked them and they're like, yeah, I'll be there tomorrow. And I'm like, oh. That was it. There was no like begging or pleading or anything and they came over. We made them dinner. They helped us up for like five or six hours. It was amazing. It was like I had eight hands and so I got a lot more done and a lot more accomplished and I actually was able to ease a lot of my burden. And so asking for help is definitely one thing.
The second thing is kind of laying that plan Plan out on paper. That really helps cuz it gives you something to track back to. So, you know, set some deadlines for yourself, set some tasks. And also time box things. That's another thing that I've really started experiencing of like, I'm going to spend half an hour doing this thing. If I need more time, that is fine. I will bargain for that time after that half an hour.
But I'm gonna set that up and then I will stop that work and then I'll move on to the next thing and then I can put more time in my calendar later. That has helped me not sit there and spin when I am stuck.
I love that bit about asking for help and how people will step up and help you because that's so true. But often we have to get past our own pride and our own ego, don't we? Because we, again, we're our own worst enemies. We don't want anyone else to know that we're struggling. We wanna pretend that everything's okay. We wanna project this picture to our clients that we are perfect and nothing could ever go wrong.
And actually, as you've just shared, when we step out of that and just a little bit, be a little bit humble and say, actually, I'm struggling with this and I need some help. There are plenty of people around us who are willing to help. So if you, again, if you're listening to this and you are resonating with it, please reach out to children. Reach out to me and just say help. Like, what should I do? Because we don't wanna leave you in that burnout.
Find people in your life, friends, family that you can reach out to and say, don't stay stuck. Now, one of the other things that people are gonna say, I know because I can hear them asking this question in the head right now, is it's great to say, I'm gonna time block and I'm gonna charge my creative fee and I'm gonna do everything in the right time. And then we get that really difficult customer who's demanding way too much of us for the amount of money they're paying.
Like what do we do in that situation to keep ourselves sane?
You have to . The first one that is a really tough one is, you know, that relationship might not actually be a healthy one to be in and possibly sever ties deliver the work as it is, you know. Cut ties, end contract, you know, you might have to refund a little bit of money. That's one avenue. I know it's not everyone's option, but that is the clearest, easy way. The second one is set some very, very, very clear boundaries, and when they breach those boundaries, it has ramifications.
So in the advertising world, oftentimes we're like, listen, if you don't give us feedback by 2:00 PM. This moves out. We don't go, okay, no problem. I'll just eat the seven hours that I've now lost in a day because you took too much time, and so I'm gonna have to make up that time.
The conversation is, if you don't approve this by Tuesday, the date moves out and you'll get the next round of feedback later, and then they realize they don't have any leg to stand on because they're like, okay, well if I take more time, , then you take more time and then that impacts me. And so the more that that happens to them, they start to realize that they don't really have the cards and they need to collaborate with you.
It is still very difficult, especially when you have a disgruntled client how to appease them. That is another area that is quite challenging, especially when your back is up against the wall and you have no wiggle room. I've been in that situation before. . You know, you may be late and they're like, well, listen, like, because you're late now, I'm gonna not pay any more money. And you're like, okay, I gotta eat those costs.
But for me, those instances, sometimes I just have to accept it and work through it in as quiet a manner as possible. But then I take all of those learnings and apply them to my next job immediately so that I don't do those things. , it might be working with my team to build a better, stronger plan.
Earlier it might be putting a new document together for onboarding a new client so that I don't end up with them not having as adequate wording or spelling mistakes or proofing issues like any of those things that you learn very early on. At least in the stationary side. I start to apply to my next job so that I don't replicate the same problems at times when you're. I don't know what to do.
The easiest thing is to just chip away at it and have an honest conversation, and if they're being overly aggressive, find a way to take a step back, not necessarily from the work, but just step out of the situation, process and come back in when you're calm. That will help those situations because then you come at it from a place of calm that you can then rationally explain and come to a consensus on for a solution.
Really helpful tips there. Definitely. One of the things I say to my clients all the time when they come to me with a problem or a difficult customer is, right, let's take the emotion out of it, first of all, and let's look at the facts. What have you agreed to? What are they asking for? Let's take the emotion out of it. But again, as creative people who love to serve our customers, we can get really wrapped up in that emotion.
And also, I think what you said about boundaries is so true because for some reason when it comes to our personal businesses, our creative businesses, we feel like. Go out the window or we, we try and be really good people. And what we always find, and I'm sure this is the same for you, is you give an inch and they run a mile . Jordan: Absolutely. The other thing that I would say is there are sacrifices we can make in our aspect of perfectionism.
And so well, by that what I mean is the client doesn't always know what is in your head. Like you've never been able, like most of the times I'm not able to articulate the final vision cause I don't know what it's ultimately gonna look like. I start doing things and things happen and, and those things. And so what I mean by sacrifice is there are ways that you could adjust the vision so that you're still delivering the end result.
And it is still gonna be, its its level of delivery, but you might not have to sacrifice those extra six hours to. In my case, cut paper a very specific way. I might be able to find a dye that does it, that costs me a little bit more money, but shaves off two days worth of work. There are things that I can do to speed up my process and put efficiencies in place that ultimately doesn't sacrifice the end product. but saves my sanity.
And so that's another thing you can look at, especially when you're feeling that little bit of burnout, is where can I find efficiencies within my existing work, put up multiple projects at the same time? Can I, you know, find some efficiencies there? That to me, has been another really great way of, of spreading. That pain . Becca: Yeah, that's really, really helpful. Okay, so there's gonna be some other people listening to this and thinking, actually, I don't resonate with this.
Burnout hasn't been a thing for me so far. Maybe they're just starting out, maybe they're in a good place, but what can they be putting in place now to prevent burnout? So even if they haven't had burnout yet, what can they be doing in their businesses to prevent it?
The one thing that. Worked a lot on is really defining my scopes and my contracts, and that sets me up for success, but it also sets the client up for success because they know what to expect, when to expect it for the most part. Things obviously change over time. That to me has allowed me to basically block my timeout. And what I'll do is I'll put that in my calendar this date, this deliverable goes out on this date. I'm expecting client feedback on this date.
I'm gonna be putting things in production on this date and at least on paper. I'm not gonna overcommit myself cause I'm like, holy cow, I have a wedding on Saturday that's gonna have a four hour drive. And those things. Cause at the time I'm like, sure, sure, sure. We'll just book it in. And then I don't really realize when I take a short term job in there that it has a conflict. And now I'm trying to cram in four days worth of work in one day.
. Like you can tend to do that because you're like, sure, that sounds easy, especially in the digital world where you're like, sure, I can, I can help. No problem. I'll just start this project. But you don't necessarily always realize the commitment of time, especially with other things that are going on. Some people are amazing at it, but I'm a like a creative creative where I'm not the best project manager at times, and I'm like, okay, how am I supposed to do?
Today, and sleep and eat and clean my house. and so that has been a really, really big thing for me. It's also strengthened my relationship with my clients and my, you know, planners that I work with because they know what to expect and when to expect it in there. I also dictate turnaround times. So I, I'll respond within X amount of dates, like days and the . Client has so many days to respond or then we have to have a conversation because it's starts to impact ultimate deliverables.
That has been one way to kind of set myself up to prevent those things. And the other thing is kind of leaning back on the friend conversation about having open, honest dialogue as things are happening before they. And so I have a couple friends where I'll do like a check-in and we just see how things are going. You know, they may be struggling, they may not be struggling, but I'm like, Hey, wow, you sound like you're gonna be really busy. Do you need anything?
Like, is there anything I can do for that? And that can go a long way of helping ease the burden before the burden happens. It also just gives me a place to have a sounding board. With someone who understands what I'm going through. My husband is amazing, but he doesn't deal with my business day to day. And so when sometimes he's like, well, that's whatever, who cares? Just figure it out. And you're like, yeah, that doesn't really work that way.
But when I talk to another stationer and I'm like, I don't know how to do this, and I'm really struggling, and they're like, oh, what about this? Or How about this vendor that you've maybe you never used before? What about this paper? Or what about this method? And I'm like, oh. Like problem solved. Like you never really know until you ask.
And so that to me goes a really long way about giving me a space where I can ask questions earlier on and often so that I don't feel like I have to figure this all out on my own until it buries me alive.
Yeah, that is really helpful. And I definitely think having a community of other people within the wedding, It can be so helpful for that. And again, if you guys are listening to this and you're in my community and you're struggling, just share with the other people in there because I guarantee there's someone else in there that's gone through something similar and has got some advice for you as well.
Now, something came up in that conversation that I wanna touch back on, which I know is something else that we're all struggling with all of the time, and that's saying no to things we often wanna say. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And exactly like you said, you've got our wedding booked in and then you see a tiny. Lot of time on your calendar. Someone asks you, can you do my wedding too? And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. And then you're like, I dunno how I'm gonna do it.
In your own business, have you learned to say no? How have you gone about doing that?
Absolutely. Not often enough . But I'm practicing. It is a learning experience. One thing that I've gotten really. Good. That I will say is on events that are not going to move my business forward. That don't bring a lot of financial, like there's financial jobs where you're like, this is gonna keep the lights on and I will work through it and I'm happy to do it, but it isn't something I'm gonna put in my portfolio. And then there's.
It pays me very little and it's not gonna move my business forward. Those kinds of projects I've gotten really good at saying no to because I've learned like I've done them in the beginning, but they didn't do anything that, that relationship didn't bring anything forward. Those clients are not gonna refer me because they're work is not the kind of work that I want to be doing. And so that to me is a really big thing that I learned. The other thing is actually spreading the wealth.
So sometimes it's a no, but I know someone who's better at. And it's not because it's not a good fit, like it's not a good fit for me, but it might be a good amount of money. And I'm like, listen, this person specializes in this. You should go to this watercolor artist because I want you to support them. I, I'm not gonna be the best person for that. And that to me is another thing that I learned pretty early on because, you know, you always wanna try and you wanna learn.
And you're like, oh, I can do all the things. And you're like, well, I'm not really that great at it. Or It takes me seven times as long as it probably should and I'm not gonna make any money on it. But then this person's amazing and I love them and I wanna support them. So go over there, . That to me has been a really big help in the, in that sense. The other thing is relationships with vendors that are not healthy.
And that is when you know they take more than they give or they take and don't give anything. That to me has been a really clear eye opener over the past few years, especially coming out of the pandemic of a lot of the sacrifices I did. Like none of that has come to fruition and that planner hasn't really been reciprocal and the amount of work and money that I've donated to that relationship. And so for me, it's been okay to actually.
Let that relationship fizzle if they have it, if they something comes in, I'm like, okay, sure. Here's my fees. Here's all those things. And if they're like, well, can you do me a favor? No, I can't. I have to pay my bills. , I've given you a lot of favors. I mean, you can have it in a really nice way, in an honest way, but. you know, inside no . You know What? It doesn't pay off, so no, thank you,
. Becca: Yeah, and I think it's great that you put it that way because actually some people just need to hear it that way and realize actually they have got permission that they can say no to things and they can say no to doing work for free if they don't have time or they don't see a benefit for them. And that's okay. And that doesn't make them a bad person. It makes them a smart, savvy, business owner that doesn't wanna burn out. And that's what we want for everyone. Right? Absolutely.
You also wanna save your bank account, . Becca: Exactly. And freebies. Freebies don't pay our bills, right? No. I mean, you have to waive again those, what's the exposure gonna be? What's the relationship you're building? , you know, what could I potentially gain from that? Is there something like also when you're doing things via donation and you're contributing your time or materials or whatever, don't be afraid to ask for something back.
Oftentimes we're just like, I'm happy with an Instagram credit, but like maybe they could pay for shipping. Maybe they could, you know, comp partial ticket so that I can attend the event. Maybe I can go for free. Like maybe they can make a referral. Like if there's something you want from it, just don't be afraid to ask. The worst that's gonna happen is, no, I'm sorry. We don't do that. Like, and you're like, okay, I'm still willing to do it, or I'm not like clear, put it on the table, but.
Oftentimes we're like, well, they just asked for this, and so I'm gonna do it, and then that's it, , and then you're like, well, I didn't get anything from it. You're like, well, I didn't ask . Becca: Yeah, that's so true. That's definitely so true. They think all they can ask for is an Instagram credit, but you're right. There's a lot more things they could be asking for too. Jordan, this has been a great conversation.
Thank you for being so open about your own business and your own life and your own struggles. I know it's gonna resonate with so many people listening. Now before we end, I always end every interview with the same question, which is this. What is the one thing you wish you'd known sooner in your own business? I'm gonna go back to my Done is better than perfect mantra. Like I would spend days working on something that had very little payoff.
I mean, I would have embraced that a lot earlier on the, actually, the other thing I would be is don't advertise it everywhere. pick one thing, try it out, and then see how that resonates over a long period of time. I blanketed a lot really at the beginning to be like, I need to get my footing in there.
And I spent a lot of money that had never been reciprocated, . The, the clients never came in from those revenues because they, they weren't ultimately the right fit for me and my business, but I didn't realize that. And so I wish I would've taken more time to do a bit more research and choose a lot more wisely to invest in one or two key areas for advertising versus trying a whole bunch of different things. Because when I talk to my friends, they're like, oh, that didn't work for me.
Oh, that didn't work for me, and that didn't work for me. And I was like, Great. Which I would've known that before I spent a thousand dollars . Becca: Yes. And that circles us nicely background to where we started, which was do your research, do your market research about your ideal couples, and find out where they're hanging out, and then advertise there, not everywhere. Jordan, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you.
If people wanna find out more about you and what you do, where's the best place for them to find you? Website. Best place overall. A good day inc inc.com and Instagram is my other space that I kind of play around with a lot and a good day, Inc as well.
Fabulous. I'll make sure that I put all of those links in the show notes for you. It's been a pleasure to talk. Thank you again, and hopefully we'll speak again soon.
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Becca.
How great was that conversation with Jordan? And I know that's gonna really resonate with some of you, especially the creatives out there. I love his idea about charging a creative fee, and that's something that I think a lot of you could start implementing. Hope you enjoyed this week's episode. I'll be back next week.