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Okay, loves. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Just so delighted to tell you who we love with us tonight. Get ready, Cleary's. Finally, we have Tegan and Sarah with us today. The route out there 20 year career Tegan and Sarah have built a multifaceted media empire that extends into TV books, newsletters and public service. Always of course rooted in their incredible.
So crushing and then reviving music with multiple June award wins and numerous Grammy Glad and Polaris prize award nominations Tegan and Sarah's crowning achievement is the Tegan and Sarah foundation. Tegan and Sarah are the authors of the New York Times best selling memoir high school and their second book Tegan and Sarah crush will be released on October 1st, 2024. That's really good news Tegan and Sarah. I just want to tell you a couple things.
Number one, I'm so glad to see your grown faces because right now I'm three quarters of the way through high school your book. It's just so much acid and I just the mom and me is so proud of you. Okay, I'm older than you. My shoulder. Just a couple years. I mean by five years. They're my age. They're my age. We're 43 right? Yeah. Okay. All right. So I just will I do feel like maternal to you.
It's always interesting for me to think about people who are younger than me, but whose life and how they've lived it made it easier for me to come out to be who I am in the world. We have to wear kids. Their experience is coming out. I have been so different. And you and who you are and who you've always been and your fierce determination to be who you are and share it with others so they can be who they are has changed the world.
Totally large. And that has affected my family. So my life personally. Yes. So thank you. Thank you love bugs. That's really incredibly sweet and I really love how quickly you went from our reckless acid use to just being complete gay heroes. Like I really I love to see it.
I think they're connected. Okay. I'm as impressed by that as you're active. When I smoke pot. I have to tell people not in previous times. All right. Everybody when you smoked right right. I used to have to tell people please tell me if I've peed in my pants. And you guys were at school. Yeah. I know we should really show a lot of promise. When we do things we do it as best as we can we do it to the max for sure. And we excelled at hiding our drug use. I will say this when we put out our memoir.
Sarah was the one who really championed us being really open about our experimentation because I do think there's a sort of you know.
Masquerade that happens when you're a public figure where you only project the perfect positive parts of yourself and Sarah and I were really all about this is sort of part of the Tegan and Sarah ethos is that we are degenerate dirt bags and our incredible career is a testament to the unbelievable village of people around us who constantly support us and hold us out.
But I think that part of what people connect to is that we're just kind of ourselves and we didn't want a gloss over our high school years where we really struggled with not just our sexuality but where we fit in the world where our path was going to be and it was Sarah who said you know we reward male rock stars for their shenanigans their sexual escapades their drug use their drinking all of that and women are just not allowed to do that.
And so we really leaned into that and embraced it and also will point out that it did really unlock a creative part of us so. Yeah major major props to acid LSD thanks so much for that we do not use drugs have not used drugs since the 90s but yeah also just thank you so much for having us on the podcast and thank you for that lovely introduction.
Absolutely I want to ask you to I feel like in listening to your music reading all of your interviews forever and reading your book I feel like you to have because you've worked together for so long as sisters you have gotten to a place that we are trying to get to my sister this is my sister this is Amanda hi and this is so nice to me you so nice to meet all so good to meet you finally you've been playing in my ears for 20 years and see. It's lovely to be here with all three of you.
Okay so what I'm thinking about is how siblinghood kind of shows us who we are but then also demands us to be that thing forever helps us individuate and then get stuck so much and then so you two said this one thing in an interview this is not going to seem like the most profound thing you've ever said but I had to stop reading and take a deep breath. Okay some interviewers talking to you about one of your albums.
Teigen started talking about your experience with the album and it was a strong opinion in one way and Sarah says this. Teigen feels differently about that than I do. And then you gave your experience an opinion and that was it no. I was like what that is not how we would do it we would just for a year try to decide who was right about it who was wrong and what we were going to believe.
Well we do that too you do we're heavily media trained at this point I mean we've been talking publicly for 25 years and when I say media trained itself taught like we just learned. Not to say and do and trial and error so I'm married to a twin she and I talk a lot about this idea that there's always one twin that's a little more independent more heavily identified as like I'm the individual twin I wasn't as drawn to
a twinness as like the other one or dependent or whatever word you want to use. And I think that this idea with all siblings but specifically with twins around like we must have the same memory or we have to have the same emotion or feeling.
It's sort of baked into the twin idea and so if it's not coming from you internally it's definitely externally like the pressures put on you like I can't believe you both don't feel this way or I can't believe you both don't think green is your favorite color.
There's this kind of like aggressive emphasis on oh you must be identical because you are identical I think to some degree just having that phrase you just used in our vocabulary it's helped sort of take some pressure off of us because sometimes what I really want to say is teagans wrong or that's completely incorrect or I'm worried about your mental health and I think you need to get it checked because that's just you fabricated that but it's just easier to say I feel differently you know my experience is different.
So I mean that's a huge thing between siblings and it's funny because I'm a new parent and I think we're only going to have one kid and so we're twins with one child and we walk around in like at the state of projecting grief on him we're like it's so sad it's so sad he's going to be alone and then on the other hand sometimes I'm like it's so sad that he's just a normal single you know because we think of ourselves as being somewhat special and now we're like we have a less special child you know.
Wait who is the twin in your relationship that is the more independent independent versus not. I'll let Tegan answer that.
Well I would say that I am totally fine with being a twin and have also at points felt that Sarah did not necessarily want to be a twin or being a twin you know she definitely individuated herself earlier than me she took off and we were graduate high school in the late 90s and then Sarah moved to Montreal in 2003 or 2002 and that was the first time period that we like existed is independent people it's
weird to say that because so much of our life was still so stitched together you know being in a band and spending 300 days a year together it's like an odd feeling like I don't know if you guys experience this working together but it's all people come up and be like I love your cats and I'll say they're Sarah's cats you know
because Sarah has these Scottish fold cats and she'll put them on our Instagram and I'm like they're Sarah's cats and almost always people look confused like they're not both your cats and I'm like do people really think we still like live together with our mom or something what is happening the common sense just proof it flies out the window you know like when Sarah had a kid everyone I mean we do take photos of us together with him and it is odd I was at my mom's the other day
and there's a photo in her front entry way of me and Sarah and Sid and I'm like it is kind of weird it's like we're co-parenting together but so anyway I just I feel like there's just an automatic assumption that we must be each other's best friend we must love the same things we must do all the same things we must still live in bunk beds in our mom's house so I feel Sarah pushed against that further and harder and first you know which was really hard for me because I felt somewhat abandoned you know but now I really embrace it I think it's amazing it felt like there was a bit of a rock
bottom when you all speaking of things that male rock stars get lauded for when you all started to get in like physical fights backstage sister and I used to fight fight yeah like draw blood and then I yeah when we were little how old did you go to like doing that where was the line where it was like oh this is no longer appropriate and it's going to end in like police calls or something
at least October he was like sit down ladies I know I have a conversation do you still get into it no no no we don't we don't I've been trying to figure this out I think I was in early middle school yeah so that was you were old hate middle school yeah it was cool yeah to be fighting until you left probably for college do you think yeah
one of the things that I find so interesting about your all's memoir is I cannot believe how much you remember oh for me high school is just flash and I was like deep in addiction but just flashes but some of those flashes I remember sitting in front of doors just holding for my dear life like you see in horror movies and my sister clawing like the shining to get to me and wondering what is she going to do when she gets to me
there's nothing more intense than teenage girls and I didn't feel this is going to be a bit of a quick journey but I never felt totally like a girl I didn't struggle with this idea that I was you know born in the wrong body or anything so definitive
or like acute but I did not feel like a girl and I remember that really intensifying in adolescence because teenage girls were nuts and I was like get me out of here these are not my people yes doing and also this is sort of a more provocative kind of take on it but I really wanted to be around girls when I was in adolescence because I was attracted to all the girls and they were so not attracted to each other meaning like not sexually but they were always mad at each other
and I was like can we just all get along and out all the time and maybe make out maybe make out or just just fighting so much we could make out seriously like I was like such an interesting feeling to be a queer girl at the age specifically identifying the way that I did internally and externally
where I just was like it's so weird to want to be around girls who just do not they're just like allergic to each other I didn't involve myself very much in the sort of fights that teenage girls were having at that time but it just was really really destabilizing and we talk about this in the memoir there was a in grade 9 a group of French immersion girls came to our school and they were like a different species they were kind and generous and curious and they liked us which was like delightful
and it's like a miracle you know that we found them because I was able to sort of engage not just in queerness with many of them but like I felt like oh this is the environment this is the culture of girlhood that I wanted was missing and in some weird way that really drew attention to how Teigen and I had sort of adapted we were also fighting and knocking each other's doors down and really physical with each other and that group of French immersion girls was like what's wrong with you guys
and that was like really where the shame started for me where I was like oh my god what's wrong with us so I know boys have their own thing too but man I mean teenage girls that is it's heavy it's heavy I wonder about that because the story we've always told each other about that time
was that the intensity of our connection was always there and the outlet of the intensity came out in that kind of in some ways violent ways but the intensity of it now comes out in different ways but I wonder if it's about girls this is interesting because you have a son now too
but I have a son and sometimes I hear them playing in the yard and I'm like tell my husband he needs to go out there and like deal with whatever's happening because they'll just be screaming at each other while they're playing a game
and he's like looks at me like I don't know what you're talking about there's no problem happening there they are playing a game right that sounds you're hearing is a game being played girls aren't given that latitude to have their aggression in the normal state of things
so I feel like it just gets piled up and then springs out actually find that so interesting because in our career and I mean it's lovely that you guys stop kicking the crap out of each other in middle school we were still doing it in our early 20s but we were alone a lot because we were on tour
we just privately abused each other but I was going to say that it's actually it's so interesting to hear you say that about the difference between kids girls and boys because I feel like in our career that's really been a theme
I feel that there's almost like an unjust judgment on us like if we have any sort of tension or disagreement and Saturday we like every couple years we top up and go to therapy together and work on communication and work on our relationship with each other because we spend so much time together
and our whole life is intertwined and it is absurd our latest sort of therapist slash work coach after a few months of working with us was like it is absurd it isn't easy for you to unravel your lives you know in addition to being twins and queer there's just so much about your life
you go to each other first and that's different like when your family building it just is really complicated I think there's been sort of this judgment on Sarah and I like if any tension comes up any friction comes up the way that our band and crew and management and even our audience reacts to that
it has created an enormous shame in us and you know we had a really amazing therapist who worked with us during the making of our fourth album which was in 2004 and his whole strategy with us was to get us to undo that and to stop feeling ashamed
and to start asking permission to just say to people we are going to have an argument we make thousands of decisions together a month and we have left our family our friends are comforts behind and we're on the road in a foreign country with the weight of this responsibility of the band
and all of your lives and our livelihoods on our shoulders we are going to have tension and it's healthy and it's normal and it's fine and I think at that point Sarah and I started to realize like okay we can have that tension we can have those disagreements and arguments but there needs to be boundaries and rules and now it's evolved to the point where we have a code of conduct which you never you follow it you don't follow it but it exists it's there for us to rely on from time to time
but it's like I think we've gotten to a place where it's like yes, tension, friction, aggression, these arguments, it is normal I mean the first thing people say to us when they meet us are things like I cannot imagine being in a band with my sibling I cannot imagine traveling with my sibling
I don't think the concept of they're being tension with family is that foreign but I think that there's this automatic assumption we're going to be able to put all that aside and just get along and it's like no I want to fucking murder her a lot of the time you know
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it's so interesting about the yeah it's okay it's just okay and then we just keep going and we just keep coming back which is what men do yes I was an elementary school teacher and I would see this happen like the boys were allowed to wherever they were whenever they were hash it out hash it out without anybody freaking out but when girls started to do it there was just this panic and everybody like get along be nice did it and so it has to come out sideways I think that's why women sports
are so interesting because it's like a container where women can be fully human but it makes sense that we would only do it in private places with small groups of friends each other in the house with whatever because we're not allowed to do it in the world so we have to get it out in these small private places right yeah well I think it's interesting that you bring up the sports analogy because I do feel there is something about men
in all those worlds like yet like we can go out on the field and we can get into conflict with each other and have these issues but then we can go back to the locker room and we can get along and it's wonderful that women have that space to do it too I think men have that space to do it in rock and roll too yeah music industry I mean I watch men over the last two decades in our organization argue with each other
get into conflict and then move on and have a beer later but I can tell you every single time I've had a conflict with men in organization it has never gotten better and it always feels like it's my fault it's like well you raised your voice or you were emotional and I've had what seemed like very reasonable normal conflict with people about not doing their job pointing it out in a really really really really professional way and then later on have that man come to me
but like you really hurt my feelings and I need a hug you know and it's like no no would you go to our guitar for your get a hug after he gave you feedback like about you're in your mix no but it's just we have this really unbelievable expectation on women to be nice to resolve things to make things good to make everything smooth for everybody okay just because we've been sort of bouncing between the two but thinking again about kids because
I have like a big child he's going to be a bodyguard size child and he is so gentle he's very tentative he's really verbal he's really smart and the other day we were at the library and this little girl just walked right up to him and just dealt two hands on the chest just push them like just walked over to him and just pushed them and I wanted to pick up that child course you did of course you moved them from the library and I was just like not just from the library
the planet yeah yes I just like holy shit like my instinct to protect him was so intense and then it filled me with dread because I was like he's so sweet right now and I don't want him to become the thing you know whatever but anyways all of which to say then I read this the in Canada they just put out this big report like Canadian and the parks they need to climb and fall out of trees they really sort of like draw a link between this increased anxiety
and push boundaries they need to be out of your sights they literally recommend letting your kids climb trees and do things that are marginally dangerous because they're not getting any chance to like discharge any of this natural shit that comes up in you when you're a kid and you're figuring out how to do all this stuff it's interesting like how I'm already feeling that with having a son where I'm like I don't want him to be aggressive
but now I'm like is he already too wimpy so like I'm going to get a wrestle with him and throw him around a little bit more I have so much more empathy now for people it's really hard not to raise up somebody who's like just bonkers it's really hard it's so hard you're already doing so many things wrong and he's only like not even two because you spent your life trying to figure out how to be a full human badass free woman and then the universe is like good job here's a boy
even if it was a girl I think I would trust even if it was a girl my whole thing too is that I think there's lower expectations for this and I really see that now and you know I have a lot of friends with girls and I'm like man that it actually looks harder to me to raise the girl because it's like
you want to protect them and you want to make sure that they're strong it's stressful out here we feel you it's hard to be here we're at the stage where we're as parents we're trying to figure out did we do a good enough job because they're leaving and like the process by which to detach
that is yeah for me it's the hardest thing I'm struggling big time with it my instincts are like opposite game I have to like override myself I'm not detaching I don't is that your I'm not that's not my soul it's the only word I could think of of just like they're individuating
easy I feel you though because don't worry they'll write a memoir don't write a memoir as karma exists yeah if karma exists they will be writing memoirs yeah I know because like that's the other thing too is that we are all roughly around the same age and I just feel like our parents were really young my parents were 39 turning 40 the year that we graduated high school so you know I'm 43 and I've got a 20-month-old and I'm like I never want him to leave
I can literally bring myself to tears thinking about our life when he leaves and it's like it's over I used to laugh at my friends when they were like I'm in a move wherever my kid goes to college and I'm like I say this to Stacy my wife all the time I'm like we're gonna have to go live near him
wherever he goes especially if he's getting an inheritance it's gonna be all negotiable unless he lets us be in his life that's untelty I didn't that's untelty I know it's super unhealthy but I'm like oh I had you to fill the rest of my life I didn't have you so I could send you out into the world and get let you go out in a way that's why I had you when I was an old lady yeah I'm not going anywhere and that is what the parenting experts tell us that we should tell them
we had you to fulfill us and so I'm gonna need you to make all of your decisions based on what's best for me who's he gonna meet better than us actually in your case in your case I think that's fair I think that's fair taking your head like God help us
nothing seems harder to me than being a parent it's been awesome to watch Sarah go through it and so many people that we love so much have gone through it you know and we were lucky to have amazing parents and there's so much focus and time and tension put on kids and I really get it you're responsible for raising a human being is gonna go out into the world and yeah it's really huge but there's also part of me that's like you know it's easy to say it as a person who's not a parent
but like your kids are just gonna be who they're gonna be you know you can try as hard as you want you can be as good as you want but kids are just gonna be kids my parents I think did a phenomenal job considering all of the things that they had against them you know and how young they were and our lives started sort of in poverty and you know they did the best they could with trying to work full time and take care of us but we still took a lot of drugs
we still ended up being musicians even though my mom had gone back to school and encouraged us to go right into university we decided not to go into university you know you still make mistakes you still lie you still cheat and steal and do shitty stuff
you know like you're a human being and like I agree sort of with this concept of like you kind of just got to let kids fall and figure it out and I'm really grateful that we had those kinds of parents I love your parents I think they did a great job do you know that their first guitar they found and it was their stepdad Bruce's she gave our kids her first guitar oh and she's like yeah how do you feel about doing things not only you have a teenager entering the world
you have a teenager is entering the music business like how how are you feeling about yeah I kind of feel like I mean what could go wrong this one is great this one I'm I'm just stressing I feel exactly the way Sarah felt when that little girl
for singing right yeah I'm like my biggest thing is she's taking a gap year but probably will be a gap life and the problem I have and this is all me projecting is that she's such an incredible student and gets amazing grades and actually like cares about learning
whereas I didn't I was a good candidate to probably skip college and just go straight into whatever it was you didn't skip college I mean you went but you skipped yeah I went everything I really didn't go but like Tish to me feels like she's a perfect candidate and would love the college experience
etc and she also has this like crazy fucking gift that and I don't know anything about the music industry and I also have like my old school ways of like when you get an offer you fucking take it and you run with it
and she's of a different mind thank god she's of a different mind because it's a different time and she's Jen whatever she is right Jen Z yeah so she's like wants to think about her boundaries and her limits we're like what I know yeah I really appreciate that you see her as such a great candidate for academics are you fearful that she's going to miss out on the college experience are you fearful about her entering the music business or you're just fearful of her being critiqued by the public
which can be so horrible like is there or is it all those things thanks to you know my all the I just was building my fear my fear inspiration yeah I'm afraid of her failing no I'm afraid that I'm making a bad parenting choice by allowing her to do this
she thinks that we had a choice yeah like this child who's never had a choice Tish reminds me of that yeah she just is non dramatically going about what she's gonna do all the time yeah so either we get on board or we don't but yeah I was like this fierce I was like I have to be a soccer player
and it was like everything in my life revolved around that and Tish she's not like that yes her music is the most important thing in her life and she has like a really healthy relationship with all the other her life and it just to me it feels confusing because I didn't do it that way
with that way and so it's all about me we just were texting yesterday that like I'm projecting on a Tish and I need to like get regulated before I've been talked to Glenn and about it because I can fire her up and then it just starts this whole like negative cycle which we don't need it's just fear
it's not facing reality I feel like we were still fighting until like we got on this interview we weren't we were kind of fighting we were passing the best of fighting I was fighting with you in my mind yeah it feels pretty on point for the conversation you know look I want to just say I mean not that you're soliciting any sort of advice we are we are but I'll give it to you anyway because that's how I work I I'll say I think it's just like so inspiring when someone knows what they want to be
it's such what a gift like you know what I mean like to be good at something and to love it and want to do it especially at that age like what a gift for you I know for Sarah and I that's so much of what we talk about in our memoirs
that we were so aimless and lost and part of that was the fog of queerness and just not yet being able to articulate that and like see ourselves because at that point I mean obviously we weren't equal citizens under the law we didn't see ourselves you know in the mainstream
so it was really hard to imagine college it was hard to imagine a career like we just you know had such a difficult time and music just became this incredible vehicle to put all of those feelings in to kind of push us forward and I don't know that we even were thinking about having a career in music
or thinking about fame or fortune or what our lives would look like it's just there was this one thing that made us feel good and we just had to well we also like girls but you know that was too big like hidden you know so two things we liked but one that we could do openly
we also just asked for a year off and it turned into this is our 26th year race yourself Abby yeah and the first couple years were really hard you know making it in music especially as queer people I mean it's still incredibly difficult you know especially as you get into your 30s and 40s
where nobody wants you anymore because they want 18 year olds and it's not an easy industry and it's changed so much and you guys all know this from being public people it's really tough but you know that feeling of loving something
you know that is often the most important thing is just if you can find something you love so many people go through life never having a thing that they love and that they want to do and I just think also it's not like you can't make a mistake because you can always go to college
you can always always always go to college and that's the other thing one of the things that our dad really focused on when we were trying to figure out what we were going to do and how to not convince my mom but my mom was so upset
that we had decided not to go to college or university that really had been her goal and she had done it the unfun way like she did it as a adult single parent with kids you know student loans arguably the hardest least attractive way to go to school and Tegan and I while we saw her as a total hero
it wasn't like the American Dream College experience like I wasn't like boy I want to be like my mom I was like that looks so hard that looks so complicated and to find our music career and be able to sort of like build the road as we went was really exciting to us
and I remember my dad saying like he's really dark but he was like look you have a job and then you have to do it till you're like 65 and then you die that was essentially his big speech to us he was like so like if you're going to have to do this job forever definitely find something you want to do
and I remember thinking like yeah I don't want to just go like aimlessly to college and hope I figure it out I really felt like I had something but then in the back of my mind I was always like if this doesn't work out with music
I'll be what you were just saying I also felt like I was a good candidate for school I felt like I was a good candidate for these things and you never stop being a good candidate for those things like if she's curious and interested in education and learning and continuing to learn
she'll always be that so that's the thing that is actually often missing in people they're going to school because they have to or they're supposed to but if you're like such a good candidate and you're like a sponge and you want to learn that thing will always be there music
Tegan's right I hate to like I don't know feed this stereotype but like music is for the young the music industry is for the young so I was so shocked there for saying I don't think I've ever heard Sarah say Tegan's right so I'm just gonna write down we're gonna play it time
yeah I'm just gonna write down the time so that I can play that before that I've said you were right before I've said you were right like four times specifically you were specifically right when we got offered to open for the killers in 2004 and they had just put out their album Hot Fuss I was the artist that was happy to continue to struggle and be obscured and have nobody know us and Tegan was like we have to be the biggest band in the world and so we sort of like always had this push and pull
I was living in Montreal and I was very very into like a very niche sort of like music scene and queer music and the only thing I'd ever heard was that killer song about I don't know whatever that big single was that seemed vaguely queer baiting and I remember being like I don't like them
and Tegan was like we have to go open for this band they're about to be the biggest band in the world and I disagreed and we went out and we toured with them we were in theaters and they were already selling their next tour which was gonna be sold out arenas and like every night at every show
it was like the who's who of the music industry Bono showed up to a show David Bowie showed up to a show like it was crazy they were like the about to be literally the biggest band in the world and Tegan and I were opening for them well I was like well Tegan was like good show good call Tegan
I was like this is a really good show for us because a lot of times when you support bands that are already really established people are like we just want to see the band that we're here to see but there was this like really fresh excited energy of just young people coming out to see a concert
and not necessarily fully being into the band yet I was on an ad I didn't know that they were gonna be a huge band I just for me I was so self conscious when we chose not to go to college that I was like we have to take our career so seriously so for me I was like we must pour all of ourselves in
like nothing else matters when Sarah kind of was happy to sort of meander and at times languish in more of the indie underground because that sort of was more of her pedigree was to be intellectual about music I was purely like we must succeed so everyone in our life doesn't think we're losers
like thirsty sweaty Tegan was so sweaty in the beginning of our career she was like we gotta be famous I didn't care about fame you know we'd been given a shot I still feel that way I'm 43 and I'm still like I hope people aren't disappointed that we didn't become a bigger band
but you know we've never been nominated for a Grammy like we've never played us in L it's weird I'm not disappointed for myself I just am so worried that other people are like they didn't do it they didn't succeed like we set them up to succeed and they didn't make it
it's like that's so silly because we've been we've done lots of cool things so many more things than I thought we would ever do but I worry that we've let people down you know who do you see Tegan what faces do you see when you like the people will be disappointed
are they family people or they fans people or is it just like the grey cloud of people it's a good question I suppose I haven't put a face to them it's probably a mix I think sometimes I'm very self-conscious when people will talk about our legacy because I'm like we don't deserve that in Canada our Grammys are called the Junos and we're getting a humanitarian award for our work in the LGBTQ community and it's like I just am like but do we deserve that?
you know in your wonderful intro Glenn and like you saying that we've changed the world I'm so hesitant to accept that that's possible because to me there's so much we didn't accomplish there's so much we didn't get there's so much success that escaped us you know that just wasn't available to us
and I have definitely shifted my focus to not worry about that remember that legacy is not how many records you sell or how much you stream or how many tickets you sell it's like how people feel about your family or friends you know
people who come into contact with like that's so much more important and Sarah and I's focus the last couple years is about building a fuller life not a bigger life you know we don't have to climb it's so significant that Sarah had a kid it's so significant that we've been able to take time off and
be creative in other ways so yeah I don't know what the person I'm worried I let down looks like exactly but I guess I'm worried it might just be everyone around us going you did so great you did so great but inside they're like oh it's too bad they missed you know these other things
and that's probably just insecurity you know I think just looking at the next crop of young amazing artists that are coming up many of whom are queer and I'm so proud of them and so excited for them but like a lot of them are achieving things we couldn't have dreamed of okay so hold on stop
are you gonna talk about you okay good I can't wait first of all I hear you and I can very much empathize with every single thing that you said so on the US women's national team and you guys probably know a lot more because the Canadian women's national team has had a lot of success
recently they won the most recent Olympic gold medal Christine Stinclair amazing I lived pretty much what I felt like was a big-ish life I was very concerned with my legacy and how is I going to change the world and I retired
and then a few years later the team was able to secure equal pay with our men's national team and quite honestly I felt and still feel like so jealous and like I didn't do enough myself to help make that happen when it was my time but unfortunately progress is fucking slow as hell
and so it took longer and my impact on the players who were able to get it done and on the world at large was really important I'm certain about that and I'm also certain that you two went through and played through probably arguably some of like the most difficult times to be an outqueer person
I mean it was the indigo girls and you two that I saw myself in and because of people like you I was able to stand in my industry in women's sports as a queer person I mean I didn't cut my hair short until 2010 because I was afraid I wasn't going to get any marketing deals
or any contracts doing commercials I still had a long ponytail I mean it's ridiculous but there you were as like this beacon of hope and unfortunately it's the folks who paved the path who often don't get the kind of financial reward and the fame recognition I understand and I have to imagine
that you know that you were a bigger part of the bigger picture in the United States and in Canada and worldwide as it relates to the coming up artists I mean my queer daughter she's able to do that because of you all I appreciate that I totally understand the comparison for sure
no doubt that you were integral in paving that way for what came after you retired I appreciate that I want to be clear that I really have felt it in the last couple years that like so many artists have come to us and said thank you so much for being out
and thank you for so much for writing those years where it was not cool and hip to be out that was really meaningful it still really gets me very emotional because I just didn't realize we were having that effect and it sounds so naive but remember that half of our career happened for social media
and so no one could reach out like the first 12 years of our career was a vacuum like it was just sireni we met ony de franco over zoom last year what we were in the industry with no peers we were so young and it was just a different time and now it's so meaningful
I mean I tell people this all the time reach out to people you love reach out and say you appreciate people and don't be afraid I meet people and it's I'm sure there is so embarrassed because she's so polite and shy and introverted but I just I'll walk up to anyone and be like
thank you so much for your contribution to our industry to our life like you've been so meaningful like I don't care about being cool to me I just was a lonely place for a long time because we just didn't realize we knew the impact with our audience
we saw that like that's why we built such an intense connection to them it's why we eight years ago the foundation was because we literally understood that through our most popular time that our queer audience stuck with us that they supported us and that rather than seeing it as us abandoning them
they saw us us braving more of the mainstream space for them to say like you belong here it's okay if you want to be here it's totally fine there's no reason why there shouldn't be queer women on radio so we'll go out there and we'll fight to try to get out and radio and they stuck with us
and it meant so much to Sarah and I because it was like oh okay these people really care you know year after year after year to hear the impact on these people's lives that they felt like they belonged and existed and were relevant and deserved a good life it's still a weird thing
that you're just but there were so many things we could have done and maybe we should tour more and maybe we should have done that and why didn't we campaign for this and like why don't we just ask those questions I mean and that that's just who Sarah and I are we're just always questioning it
I would also add that you know our motivation and I'm only speaking sort of like from the queer perspective I don't honestly don't know if straight people have this maybe they do but my desire to be a musician and like to be seen but also to be kind of invisible you know how to do with my own
internalized homophobia my acceptance it was so much harder for me to put myself out there because I think I actually was so much more vulnerable and so much more sensitive to the rejection you know culturally socially and so it was easier for me to sort of stay in my world because I was afraid
I was so certain that the internalized homophobia that I felt was representative of the homophobia and misogyny that I saw everywhere and you know Teigen had such a and I learned this when we wrote our memoir because when she sent me the draft of her side of the book I was like where
in all these pages is Teigen's homophobia because she didn't have any and I was like this is bullshit she's lying like there's no way that she didn't fucking despise herself as much as I did like there's just no way how is that possible through my own sort of therapy
especially around that time and I've like gone to therapy so many times over the last 25 years couples therapy all these things but one of the most sort of like helpful times for me was when we were writing the memoir because what I realized is that that little like injured person
you know lives inside of me that's the person who's like been driving my career car I just have been like ah let's stay on the back roads I'm so afraid of the highway you know like I just that's like the thing that has been so omnipresent and Teigen was like you know in a like hot red Ferrari
on the freeway being like get over your bitch she was so confident that we deserve to be there and seemed so you know was injured but her outrage was coming from a place of like I absolutely do not deserve this this is wrong you're wrong whereas I was like I knew it
I knew we would be treated this way or whatever and I think that that sort of like made the early part of our career really really complicated but it's also that healing that I did like through the process of our career and really around the time of the memoir
it's also made me feel so differently about this like legacy and this conversation about like I have found that in sort of like loving little Sarah from before like when she was all like freaked out and scared and you know hiding her queerness or whatever I've let all of that go
and I don't long for the kind of accolades and acceptance that I used to and I find myself much more sort of like at peace with what we are what we were what we will be and I feel like it's been so interesting for me and I feel like she's having a harder time accepting all of this than I am
I'm like if you want to call us humanitarians because we just had really gay haircuts and donated money to LGBTQ organizations like sure okay I'll take it my hair was really gay like I'll do it you know like I feel like I'm like if this is what the people have determined I will accept my crown
you know like I'm fine with it now whereas before I would have been like no way self-hating gay you know and now I'm like fine I can accept this I think to have grace for that is really hard and Tegan and I too as like Canadians it's really hard for us
we live in this perpetual state of self-legulation and like humility like no we don't deserve this we're so bad you know and it's like we do deserve it let's just accept it and let's move on you know like that's how I sort of feel and I don't think I would get that from SNL but I do get that from
like Tegan said younger queer band saying I'm so glad you existed you know that made me feel like I could cut my hair or I could be gay or I could write songs about my girlfriend it really I let that get in the muscle now I really understand hmm Pod Squad some of what we share with you on the show
are individual unique experiences in therapy and the takeaways that help us grow appreciate each other and navigate this beautiful life we're doing together thank you for doing it with us but the things we talk about in therapy itself these are things we wouldn't necessarily share
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like if you're a roles and I know we started this talking about roles and how you get in them and you stick in them for better or worse if teegan your role was like I am the one I am the accountability department that is going to make sure that we push ourselves as far as we go
and we get that Ferrari going to its max miles an hour or kilometers or whatever the hell you guys have so it would make sense then that then you would be the one to say like was it enough did I push enough I was the one who said we could do this did I get us there yeah are you still carrying that
well it's interesting you're saying that like I guess in a way yes it's weird like I'm split down the middle because I do feel really proud like don't get me wrong I'm so proud you sure as health yeah like I feel proud and excited like I feel like it's a good idea yeah I feel like
I feel like I'm getting that that's just a good idea I think it's been amazing and by the way I mean it's not a career retired I mean we still put out music we're still working you know we still have other projects but I think the part of our career where we're climbing and pushing
and you know obsessed with that campaigning that so many artists have to do it a certain part of that I'm not going to be able to get that job done and I'm not going to be able to get that job done by me and in a culture that's obsessed with listing accolades and doing that it's less that we did
for myself I don't really care that we didn't accomplish those things but when I see people accomplishing those things so easily and I just is pure projections so easily I just mean so early to be disappointed that we never went to the Grammys is that a weird thing to hold on to maybe but
we decided eight years ago to start to diversify our feel to be creative in other new interesting ways we decided to start our foundation we decided to start thinking about what family building would look like we made a really committed focused change in our lives
to think differently about what success is and would mean and I'm still 100% behind that but yeah I have moments where I'm like did we give up was it us going oh well we don't belong there anymore we don't belong in the mainstream so we'll back off maybe a little bit of Sarah creeped in
where it was like back roads I mean I like back roads now now I want to be a farmer so I only have all of this is that Teagan doesn't have a driver's license and I don't know why I'm not sure why I'm using all of these automobile analogies but I drive now not bragging but Teagan does not
and so maybe it's just age like Sarah pointed out you start to have big questions you don't have to have kids leaving home to start reflecting on like what's the next part of your life and look like we're all in the second part of our lives you know what I mean the second half
and that second half it looks different I think for a lot of us than the first half of our life I spent my 20s and 30s with a really different focus then I have now we're also surrounded by young people who are like using all the language of therapy and trauma and it's like they seem so free with it
you know and then we're still like I have internalized homophobic it's so hard for us I can't remember anything Goddamn go away for a week the whole news cycle is different new language and new ideas our musicians now being like I kind of get off the road to protect my mental health
and I'm like are you joking I toured with whooping cough do you understand that we get vaccinated for whooping cough no one gets whooping cough since like 1920 I somehow got it and toured through it just drink a bottle of cough syrup the show must go on our mentality our whole career was like go until you break and then when you're broken just proper up on us Mike stand and the other one I'll take care of it you know what I mean?
and now kids are like two months into their record cycle and they're like I gotta take a break and I'm like are you kidding me that's amazing but it's a bitters you feel confusing yeah you feel a little bitter like who the fuck do you think you are I know and then you're like but you're right
but I'm bitter you're right because you are right but like the other day I was having this no they are there's no but it is actually really like you should take care of yourself but you know the problem is that here's my but my but is that the problem is not the music industry
the problem is capitalism and so when I hear people being like my mental health I'm like well we have to put everybody has to put their phones away go buy electrical grid do you want to learn how to do do you know I mean like I go down extreme
yes we do I'm like the parent that's like you think you're tired well when I was in the music industry with one shoe you know carrying teagin in a guitar and with an antiquated like respiratory you think COVID scary I'll tell you your twins sister getting whooping cough in 2003 all right
we couldn't even look up what whooping cough was on the internet we just just passed around like a rumor like we think talk to my aunt Julie and Atlanta she talked to my uncle and Saskatchewan and they decided that her doctor knew what I don't know and I think also too
teagin and I are business owners you work your way up and then you have finally control and power and you create these infrastructures and then the young people are like this is an unhealthy work environment and this is not right and you're in your like oh now I'm the problem like this is what I get
my way up to the top and now I'm the problem and I'm creating the unhealthy work environment it's hard it's fucking hard it's really tough but we're so grateful we're so grateful we're very grateful we'll just cut that and put that at the end of everything yeah to be clear very grateful
we're having no conflict so lucky I also think that there is a period of time we're kind of coming into because of yes I do think that there is a space I do think that there is a space that everybody needs to learn how to take care of themselves but it's also opening up a door
for like anyone who really wants to fucking hustle and go through it it's not the best of mine anyone who's not interested in taking care of themselves is gonna really fucking score they really might because you're up against a lot of like that's so true folks who are meditating and taking a nap
yes you know that's the kind of thing that I'm like yeah but Tish you could just fuck that white men Republicans you know what if someone's got a little get to it well all these little evasion snowflakes are snowflake and we're gonna pull ourselves up by our bootstrap I know it's terrible
maybe there's a name between maybe we're getting at is that Tish's generation they're gonna take better care of themselves which is awesome and that is a product of learning that from us like our generation but also we gotta get out there in the world
I joked about this other day with some friends who have teenagers where I was like it's hard because even as an adult I feel it you look at social media and you see everyone getting everything but of course they're not getting everything right we're only seeing what they're curating
we're only seeing this sort of very varnished one-dimensional look at their lives but it makes you think you can get anything it makes you feel really entitled and that everything is accessible to you and that's tough because it's not when we are coming up there literally was no model
as queer people we could look at like a Katie Lang Melissa Etheridge, Indigo Girls, Tracy Chapman there was a handful of iconic artists but these were some of the biggest artists in the world once there and I were looking for something to compare ourselves to at 19 there was no one
but that was good because we made our own path we made our own future we literally constructed our career out of just what felt right and good and aspirational and we could actually accomplish nowadays you compare yourself to everything and that's hard to be a young artist or a young person now
starting out in the world to think I'm supposed to have this because everyone on the internet has that that's tough it's a really hard thing for all of us to resist the temptation to compare ourselves I just want to say one thing about kids as someone who's now raising a child as an older person
when we were growing up we were told 18 we started paying rent our parents were like you can do anything we were operating like power tools in elementary school like we were really really capable and we're not good caregivers our generation is not good at caregiving
because we were sort of told care for yourself get out there, motivating aspirational like try a million things we're entrepreneurial because of that whatever but we're not good caregivers my child is going to be an amazing caregiver because this guy he's getting love all around the clock
this generation of kids who care about their mental health and their physical health and determining like having a life for themselves that is not as intense as the one that we had I think it's making them more caring they care more about themselves they care more about their communities
and they care more about the environment that's what I'm telling myself I think you guys feel that way so but if they can't answer emails past five o'clock they are going to find motherhood a very toxic work environment I was trying to end on a good note I was trying to like say something nice
so that people were like oh let's do they get it yeah exactly everybody knows on the ass so let's find well I think we have a theme which is that it is okay to know that there are people who are benefiting from some things you didn't get to benefit from whether it's in music
whether it's in queerness whether it's just feminism in general when I deal with younger people sometimes and they annoy me with all of their I don't know self-sovereignty I think the reason I'm annoyed with you is because you are doing something and being something
that I wish I could have been earlier totally of course so we all want to haze and we wouldn't call it that but we want to haze people to be as miserable as we have they're cutting the line right and I just want to say that the people that I love and respect the most
I'm thinking of people right now in my head but it's just there are people who forge who they are and by their dogged determination to be who they are and be brilliant and be generous with their gifts they create these communities of people who are so fucking grateful for it that it's truly life-saving and then they sort of just spend their life serving that community in a million different ways.
I feel so grateful for it and I feel so grateful for it and then I get on instagram and I see the latest list and the latest party and the latest whatever and I immediately feel like I just it's like I go from gratitude to scarcity in four seconds but I think there's a way
of success that looks like a ladder and like if you're not on the right you're not on the right but it's just a little bit stressful but what I envision with you guys is there's the ladder but there's also if you looked out at the whole landscape of the earth there's like 40,000
I'm not good at numbers million gazillion like little light bulbs that are lit up that are like your success because you have affected people's lives in a way that you could see it until the beginning is of everywhere you use a color forward easiest way to Adella I mean it is not aたい disease I like the visual just so it's very, very, very clear here that it felt like a choice that's there and I stepped away from some of the latter climbing.
Especially after we'd seen some of the, well, yeah, that's a thing. I felt like we had a very incredible few years there in the mainstream and it was really amazing and I wouldn't change it for the world and I was really excited that we were able to do what we did and accomplish what we did.
But yeah, I think at that point, we signaled to ourselves that there was something more that we could do and there was more meaningful work that we put our time into and that for a long time was the truth and still is the truth. But I also, yeah, like in this conversation can admit that there's also part of me that's like, I hope we didn't let anyone down.
I hope it doesn't feel like we gave up and I hope that people realize that even though we didn't hit some of those markers or those benchmarks or those goal posts or whatever, that, yeah, maybe when you look down and you look around, there's more significance in some of the other stuff we focused on.
And more traditional things like having children to more philanthropic stuff like starting our foundation through ourselves into a broader spectrum of experiences so that we could feel the impact in a different way. But you're also talking about looking outward because a lot of times two, the things we're talking about not to project on you, Abby, but like I always think of like athletes as having to be, you have to have like unbelievable determination.
You have to be so self-focused on your body, on your team, on this thing. And music is really similar. You become so obsessed with yourself and your brand and what it looks like in the messaging and the this. And I think in some ways too, there's a freedom in sort of like expanding your world to look outward, working in the LGBTQ community and being more intentional about our philanthropic efforts, it forced us to stop thinking so much about ourselves.
It forced us to think about the community at large. Not just what our like place in it is, like our legacy in it is. It's actually like, what is our role? What can we continue to do? How can we continue to serve and be helpful? And how can we advocate and pay it back? You know, like that community lifted us up. So like now we're okay, we're up. So how do we help?
That's always the balance that I use when people are becoming too obsessed with social media, are feeling bad or getting that Ick feeling about the world out there. I'm like, are you actually in the world out there? Yeah. Because being in the world out there is like getting out there, like you know, talking to like normal folks and going to do normal things. And I think sometimes when we're in social media land, we think that that's the real world and it just isn't.
I know that for us, the work with the foundation and sort of like our knowledge expanding to like, what's the community at large? What are their needs? What's happening in Alabama? What's happening in California? What's happening in Saskatchewan? What's happening? Starting to like understand the sort of network better allowed me to realize our world of like, we're taking in Sarah and we're gay and we're doing these things.
I just felt like that just like shattered, you know, it was like, oh, there's so much we can be doing that isn't going to be determined by if we sell records or get on SNL. We can do more for our community. We try to like bring attention to the needs in the community and that feels like good work. Feels like things that we're doing that don't necessarily have to be highlighted or like public, but it's a way to sort of remind ourselves that we're just like those light bulbs all over the world.
Like we're just all a bunch of people out here trying to live good lives. That's right. That's right. You too. Is the token non-famous person on this call? We have to do this just stay relatable. That's my role here.
Yeah. I am just grateful for your generosity and sharing about that when you get to a point whether you have a big, shiny career like y'all have had or whether you're a person at this stage of life, no matter if your career has been in a mill if your career has been at the newspaper, if your career, whatever it is, there's a certain point where you look at it and you say, is it enough? Sure. Is it big enough? Is it good enough?
I'm now like where there was an endless road ahead, there isn't anymore and you kind of have to look at it and decide whether you're going to keep striving and pushing or just get honest with yourself about it. And so I really appreciate you sharing that because I think it resonates with anyone who's honestly thinking about their lives and I love that whole night, not necessarily a big life but a full life. Because that's so beautiful.
I mean, anyone who is evaluating any of your lives would say that is big and full and beautiful and incredible and beyond my wildest dreams, but each of us can have a full life and sometimes maybe only if we stop striving so hard to make it big. Exactly. Because it's like more power, more power. It's like, okay, I know we're stopping, but it's just like, that's what I want to do. This is the vibe to me. Do I just spend my whole life trying to figure out if I have enough power?
Like, did I get enough? Do I have too much? Do I have not enough? Am I important enough? Am I not important? And then just being like, instead of trying to spend the rest of my life just gathering power, how do I just use the power that I have? Yeah. Oh, God yeah. That's it. And also, this is like woo-woo because we're using the word power and like thinking about the internet and whatever, but this is going to sound really woo-woo.
But I have asked myself, starting with COVID, I would think about this a lot. Does my life work? Does my life feel good without electricity? Meaning like, if I'm not on the internet, if I don't have social media, if I can't project outward and if I'm not taking something in from that, what does my life look like? And I think the pandemic for me anyways, like it made me realize, and again, this is really niche. I understand. I know everyone is on the internet.
Like, all people are on the internet. I admit the public people who make their careers on the internet, this is hard to get away from because I understand there's a real deep connection between the internet and how we market our band and how we connect with fans. But when everything stopped, I realized like I like my life. I don't need my career. I don't need social media. I don't need likes. I love my wife. I have a child. I have a great family. I like taking walks. I don't know.
I can just like, I can be okay with all of that. Like I really can. And I think if you stand in that for a moment and you ask yourself, do I need Facebook and TikTok and do I need a fancy career and do I need a Wikipedia page that's updated with all my current, you know, updated things? Forget all of that. No, I is for a second. And I would say that about people with their kids.
If your kid makes the wrong choice and doesn't go to the top school and doesn't become an astronaut, are you okay with that? Look, when you are at the end of your life, do you feel like you raised a kid that you love and who can accept love and give love? And are you a good person and did you mostly do good stuff? You know, like that's the thing. No, it sounds so stupid and woo-woo, but it's like, it's the truth. It's just the truth. That's the stuff that's going to matter.
And you know, Tegan even said this to me recently. We were having a conflict at work with someone else, not each other. And she said, we're going to get to the end of our lives. And the thing that we are going to be known for that's always been important to us is that we were good to our family, that we were good to our friends, that we were good to our community, that we were good to each other some of the time. And so I think that stuff is so important, especially as we get into this age.
Where we are looking back. And I think it's like, yeah, does your life work without electricity? That's my new motto. Let's leave it at that. God damn you guys are so wise and good. We're going to come see you. You're like two hours to our house. So me and Tisha and Abby are going to come see you. Oh, cool. We're very excited. We just, you're talking about to a show, right? You're not like inviting yourselves to their houses. You could. Two hours away from us. We're coming. Come on over.
We've got to work. We love that. Yeah, let's make sure that we get connected offline so that we can post you. Great. Thank you guys. Thanks for who you are. Yeah. Thanks for who you are. Thank you for you guys being who you are. And I feel like we could talk for hours. So really appreciate it. Yeah, we definitely went over so sorry. Yeah, sorry. We took too much of it. Actually, we really have never done that before. You're too irresistible. This is literally the first time we've gone over.
Yeah. My fault. Sorry. Tegan, see that's an exaculate. It was really lovely. It was honestly, it was a really lovely conversation. And almost every single time we end up doing interview, it's so funny afterwards because people will be like, oh, my God, they talk so much. I need it more time. And at first, I remember in our early part of our career, I was like, we should be more succinct, but we can't. We don't know how to. We just kind of ramble. So thanks for letting us ramble at you guys.
You're perfect. You should change nothing about yourselves. Okay. Go off to your day. The end. The end. See you next time. Yeah. Bye everyone. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. Have a good day, bye. We'll talk alot of other things. Bye but turn on, Morning Sid Soap. And I do not care what you do. I do start anytime. Any화л? Whoo. You can always watch our Instagram link, or anywhere around them.
in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman. This show is produced by Lauren Lagrasso, Alison Chott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.