Gemini is taking over Google

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Hello and welcome to Squarespace, the flagship podcast of our fancy new studio. Look at this, guys. It's sick. It's so fancy. I wish I was there to see it in person. Does it smell nice? So many times this studio smells like weed when I walk into it. When Alex and I sat down to record this show, many times you've commented that it smells like weed in here.

We don't know if that's from our colleagues at Vox.com. We don't know if that is from Liam. We don't know if that is from the other people who are podcasting here. But today, it does not smell like weed. It smells fresh and new. It's good. If you're listening to the show, it's going to be the same show.

It's just our, the space that we recorded has been dramatically upgraded. David was gone for two weeks and they are amazing studio team took the time to rebuild the thing while we were kind of out and about and traveling and recording remotely. And it's just real fancy in here. It does look awesome. And truly, even if you're just listening, like you won't see it, but like the vibes will be better. It's very moody.

You know what I mean? It's like the NELI is like a happier, more optimistic person now that we're in this studio. I mean, I got a giant TV behind me. That's the largest frame TV they make, ladies and gentlemen. And there's like a hangout zone like where sidekick son podcast go. Oh, the like retired NFL player who just like only says two things in every episode. I love that. That's the job I want. Like the AJ Hawk corner is right over there. If you're a Pat Maxi fan.

I'm gonna do every segment of today's show from a different spot in this room. But it is beautiful. It's very nice. It's funny. You know, we share the studio with other box media podcast network shows. So Andre, you do all an Evan Turner record in here. And we have a new show with Megan Rapino and Sue Bird that also records in here. And the first time I saw pictures of it was all set up for them. And I was like, where's our game cube? Don't worry.

It turns out they just changed the studio around for every show. I do think though we should find a way to anchor our webby to the shelves so that no one can get rid of our webby. Anytime you do a podcast, you will see the Vert cast's webby. That's those are the rules. I think our YouTube play button is permanently not so there. So if you are an XNFL player sidekick, you know we have a million subscribers. You know it in your heart. You got to sit under that. That's the mark everybody.

Forever. Anyway, I'm your friend Neely. Welcome. David Pierce is back from vacation. Welcome David. Hi, I picked the worst two weeks of all time to be gone, but I'm very happy to be back. Nothing happened while you were on vacation. No, including not the like culmination of a trial that I covered for months and care deeply about. And seems very important to the end of the internet. Like super chill.

Does anybody know anything about the search engine, Neva? Oh, I guess the guy who wrote the profile of it isn't here at all. Real bummer. I only reported them for like a year and a half and didn't get to talk about that at the end. But the good news is that case is going to go on for six to seven more decades. So we'll have more chances. So we are right. Yeah, there's a long period. And then Alex, you were on last week, you had been on vacation.

And then you immediately went away to cover the pixel event in San Francisco. Yeah, I'm currently on the West Coast and not in the room with you. Otherwise, so we're going to use a pixel to just do the Admi feature. Put me in there with you. But otherwise, it's it's a good time out here. It's very nice temperature wise. Yeah, the theme of this episode is can you believe you're lying guys in the answers fully fully know.

So let's start with the pixel. There's a lot to talk about. There's there was a pixel event which you guys David, I think you covered a little bit on the Tuesday show. Yep. I want to talk about TV. So I love talking about TVs. So a lot of gadgets to open the show. Then we got a bunch of just stuff in the app store and the EU happening. And then of course we have a lightning round.

But deeply controversial lightning round. I can't believe I left and you still didn't get the lightning rounds monster. Like that's I wanted to come back from vacation. You were like congratulations, David. Here is the lightning round yacht that we all bought. We did it. We put the money actually on the set. I've gone all the way to in my head, leaving the various box media corporate meetings.

So I have to go to with like what if I ended every meeting with don't talk to me until the lightning round sponsor. I'm not sure this would go well. I'm not sure that it would achieve any goals really or even my continued employment. But rest to short thought about. You feel really cool. Yeah. Like why are you talking to me with an on sponsor? Sasha. Yeah. Just a little scarf. Yeah. This is what I think about my spare time is how to get myself fired.

Okay. Let's talk about the pixel. The pixel itself. David talked about on the Tuesday show with everybody. There's like two parts of the pixel event though that I think are kind of important. One was the phone. And then the second is that the phone was introduced until like 20 minutes into the event. Because what it really was was Rick Ostroho who now runs Android and pixel talking about Android becoming the platform for Google's AI ambitions.

And even showing a bunch of AI features on Samsung phones. And I there's something there that feels very worth talking about to me. What you mean the fact that we saw a Samsung phone in a Motorola phone before we saw a pixel phone. And I think it's a cooler way of putting it. I think it's weird right there's something to that that I think is really interesting.

It's weird and it isn't like it's it's weird that it's not weird is actually where I'm at with this because they're there three things going on here. Right. One is that Rick Ostroho overseas Android and pixel. And that is a very hard job. We've talked about this that for years Google was like we have a very hard firewall between our own hardware efforts and our partner ecosystem with Android.

Now it's just literally the same dude in charge of it. And that is a complicated thing to do especially because for Google the vast majority of everything that matters about Android does not happen on pixel phones. Right. So for Google to come out and say look a Samsung phone that does all this stuff is purely just a recognition of what actually matters to Google, which is the Android business, not the pixel business like that is just the fact of the matter.

The other thing is. I think Google thinks AI as a thing and Gemini as a thing is more important than all of that right like that is the big bet. So you have to lead with Gemini and you have to lead with Android and then like a while later show everybody the phone that you made. And then if you if you also believe as I as I do and I think as Google does that the hardware just exists in service of the software which exists in service of the AI like it all ladders up.

So it's weird that Google ostensibly launched a bunch of gadgets in what was not at all a gadget launch but like increasingly this was now two days ago is recording this like it wasn't really a gadget launch like they launch some gadgets. But the main most important thing they talked about was not the gadgets, which is very strange.

Yeah, it felt more like an IO I mean not not in the room. It felt like a pixel event in the room, but the content felt like an IO keynote more than a pixel event because we're just going to talk about all these really great features that you can now use AI to generate adorable animals and key.

Here the keykeeper thing I'm still I got nothing on on like between the keykeeper thing here and the Sydney, sweetie thing at the silly can we just stop with the really awkward celebrity cameos nobody has fun. It's good for them to get paid that's a triple down just for random Neil Patrick Harris at an Apple event just get out there just whoever it is.

I think we're sevens at the Apple event. Let's be there or scarge. But no, like city, sweetie looked like a hostage keykeeper or like she got to move around. Hey set the celebrities free. Yeah, don't just make him sit in a chair and awkwardly way she was there sort of at the very end right like she was just going to be like, yeah, it's great. And they're cool aid man in basically. Yeah, but the thing you're discussing more broadly, which is.

Google believes it has a huge distribution advantage for for Gemini. That distribution advantage is Android. And they're going to put it everywhere and embedded into all of their platforms and services we. Oh, sorry, we did see that coming in. I thought that's basically what they said. And Rick's message was now the stuff is here at shipping. Like you can get it. And then you know they showed it on a bunch of Samsung motor all the phones.

And then they're like, and here's the pixel. And then here's a tiny bit of stuff the pixel can do that the others can't do, which is the ad me feature and the photos and all that. Yeah, but there's a sense that Google knows it is better at distributing AI than any of its competitors. It took a lot of digs at Apple, for example, just secret, not even secret.

Just like quiet side swipes at Apple throughout this whole event were available in all the languages apples intelligence isn't we don't have to send your data to a third party. Apple is going to send some of your stuff to open it down the line. It was Google was just reinforcing that it is building the AI.

Like it has it it controls it it runs in the cloud and the best way to get it is through Android. I just don't know if that's going to get anybody to switch from an iPhone like that's actually the thing that I think is the most interesting here that they're like Android is the place where you get your AI and everyone's kind of like.

Okay. Well, I think I think Jim and I live is probably a good example of that because that's coming to iOS later this year and that they spent a lot of time on Jim and I live it felt like that's that's their like answer to chat GPT's voice assistant.

Yeah, it really just felt like this moment of okay, no, you don't actually just need to be on on an Android device and I personally I just kept thinking of the fact that just last week they found out that they something's going to happen with Google and one of their biggest revenue drivers is their relationship with the iPhone and so now it feels like they're their phone.

Ecosystem is more important than ever and we just didn't hear a single thing about it besides AI. So yeah, it is a little weird that everything hinges on this AI now. So at all the big AI companies have been saying is that they think AI is a platform shift. You can interpret that a lot of ways like I tried to get soon to our Pichai to explain what that means to me.

I said it's as big as fire. I don't know that there's that many ways to interpret that. It's just the one really. Yeah, he's yeah, I mean, it's true, but I what the way I have interpreted platform shift is people are going to use computers in a different way and that will create many more opportunities to build products and services, right.

And if you look back at the history of platform shifts, you go from I don't know, DOS and text based computing to nice and keyboards and then you go from local applications to the web and then you go to touch screens on phones, right. Yeah, those are the platforms. Yeah, if you can think of another way to think about the word platform shift, please let me know because I'm sort of dying to figure out how to understand the words platform shift as it relates to AI.

And all I've come up with in that framework is, oh, you're going to talk to the computer instead of typing, which isn't a like that's a platform shift we already had. Right, except now can do it except except now Gemini live can just like listen to you and maybe take actions on your behalf and maybe you're going to type to it. Maybe you're just going to say, I don't know, like go make me an app that can do X and Gemini live will spit it out and that'll be fine. Yeah.

Or Siri on with Apple intelligence will go use the apps for you, which is something that Apple has, you know, it's not going to ship, but it's it's what they previewed at WBC. That is that's the platform shift. That's the platform shift that last piece is the real platform shift and this is what I've been hearing from people forever.

I think it was Paul Ford recently wrote a really good thing about this where he said right now we're in the like command line era of AI, which is like the tech is kind of under there, but nobody has figured out how to use it yet. And the idea that you're going to be essentially use a command line to interact with it, which is essentially what writing an AI prompt is is fine as far as it goes, but that's not the mainstream answer.

And then actually what needs to happen is everybody needs to invent the interface on top of that that makes it interesting. And that we have not seen, but I think the thing that I hear from everybody is like this starts to get really interesting when we get to the, it can use your apps for you.

And then you can use the app for the interface of all of this because that's where you actually do use your computer differently because right now it's like you right you can look up information by talking instead of by typing and Alex your point A that exists B it's not better.

Like it's not better. It's different. It's a little faster, but it's not better. And Alex you've used Gemini live a little. So I'm curious to hear what you think, but like we're still at this point where it is it is sort of a technology and search of a

user interface. Yeah. And I think I didn't like you see a lot of Google like poking it that I think the pixel screenshots thing which we should talk about in which I am on record of being fascinated by is an interesting version of that, but like how you actually push and pull with this thing is such an unanswered question in so, so many ways.

I feel like they they definitely haven't figured it out like like I only spent a little time with Gemini live it was me and Sean Hollister and Allison all Johnson all in our little room trying to talk to this thing and. Was it the same I'm picturing a demo like the chat GPT one was like phone on a table.

Yeah, yeah, I just need to hold the phone like like I couldn't stand far away from the phone you have to hold the phone really close to yourself because otherwise it will be like no I'm not listening to you.

But I really struggled with it because I try to be very polite and conversations and like if you're talking I'm going to usually let you finish not always as verch casters listeners can attest but I'm usually going to let you finish and and this one you're like encouraged interrupt it and and you're encouraged to interact with it in a way that would be like really rude if you were interacting with a person.

And so it's at one point once you to feel like it's more human and more realistic and at the other point it's doing that and then like I got in a fight with it because it wouldn't shut up. Yes, so I told it was man splinting me and it was like oh I'm sorry do you want me to change my tone of my voice and I was like and it was a little sassy when it said it was just like I just get like talk clap back to that by AI.

Yes, and then and Sean was like I got this and Sean just went and it was like no shut up I have a question and just immediately just no no. I'm just like I was just immediately just no no shush me now and and it's like he was basically addicted to it and it worked perfectly and I'm like, who knows more about the steam deck you were me.

He might have asked but we may he mainly asked for talk stock tips and that it was like I wouldn't personally invest in bitcoin but you can do that if you want it's just incredibly high risk are very first Gemini scandal. No, that's not scandalous. It's good advice. Here's my question. So you use it you talked to it it has some personality. This is this is the thing like this is how Google is talking about beating open AI right right open AI is going to put out its voice version.

It's going to sound like scrolls your hands are not it's in that personality it takes a breath in the middle of counting numbers as fast as a can we've all seen that video.

It's like they're competing on personality not content right there can yeah because some stuff it didn't really really well for me like I asked it to fix something it took me a while to fix on my car and it didn't 30 seconds it was just great and another stuff it really struggled with and it struggled to understand the questions and if like somebody

that to being a kind of a friend and I wouldn't have friends like this thing because it it just talks it doesn't listen to you it doesn't respond to you in in the way that a friend might and it's but it's at the same time it's a computer so you're just in this weird space where you're like am I having to be nice to my computer.

I don't necessarily want that I want it to just be my computer what you want I think that the thesis of the verge as a whole as a publication is do I have to be nice to my computer yeah no and we've been struggling to figure out that answer for quite some time but I do think in a way those companies pushing that stuff are kind of telling on themselves about the actual state of the technology right because what has been true for 60 years is that if you give a computer any kind of personality people will fall in love with it and try to

have sex with it and tell their deepest darkest secrets like it's just true like you we did a video about this a while ago that was very fun and it's like in the 70s this guy made a thing that basically all it did was say your commands back to you as a question.

So you'd be like you know my father was mean to me it would be like your father was mean to you and people are like oh my god it understands is Eliza right yes that was Eliza yeah and that's that's actually a really powerful thing and I think one other thing I miss while his on vacation was all the friend drama I wrote the story about this guy who launched an AI friend and it everybody went nuts on the internet because there was drama about who owned it was a whole thing.

I'm very happy I missed all of that drama but one of the things that Avi the CEO said to me was he was like the reason I'm doing this is because it's the only thing AI is any good at right now and I think that's right that there is there is vast gaps between where we are right now with this technology and like I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to do that with this technology and like true utility and people's lives but it's pretty easy to make one of these like fun as hell to talk to because it's not that hard to make them fun as hell to talk to so what they're able to compete on right now is making them fun as hell to talk to because that will make people use them more even if they can't do very much and the things that they do they don't do very well and so if you're just using this as like a

straightforward robotic task machine you're going to notice it's bad and you're going to hate it. Yeah, but if you make it fun and cool and friendly and exciting. It doesn't have to do that much right and I think that's a fine road to go down but it is so not the same thing as like making it more useful to people. So let me put that into the framework of the question I was asking Alex when you were using Gemini live. Did any of it feel like the platform shift.

Is the big question right if you're your Microsoft and you're pointing billions of dollars into this because you missed mobile right this is your chance to. Reclaim the primary user interface of computers if you're Google and you're basically communicating that you're going to bet the company on this. Is it is there evidence that that is real because I don't I don't know I honestly don't know.

I know I think right now I think right now the the answer is no for me I think it is a valuable tool I was talking with people afterwards who don't even. Work at Google work at other companies about these kind of things and they were like well yeah I really like it because it's a good brainstorming tool it's a good way for me to like just figure some stuff out and I'm not going to brainstorm that way person.

It's fun to talk to like that's the whole thing it's fun to talk to but but like I didn't feel this urge to just oh I want this in my I did actually want to my car immediately so never mind I did feel that. It's an air from shift. Yeah I was like I want to be like I'm slightly mansplaining to her you know like this is a good.

It was like so man's plan it was very upsetting but you like as a voice as if you think of it as part of the evolution of the voice assistant as the digital voice assistant it's a lot better. It is a huge improvement of her assistant it's a huge improvement of her Siri and and Alexa. But is it a replacement for computing general like general computing no absolutely not it's not a platform shift from my phone it's a platform shift from my Alexa.

Yeah well I think even the question of is it better than Google assistant or Siri or Alexa is a really interesting one because one of the things that's happening is Gemini is replacing Google assistant kind of all over Android which is a big deal. Like it wasn't that long ago that Google was out here being like Google assistant is the future of everything.

And now it's very clearly Gemini and there have been a bunch of people out there testing early versions of this thing obviously there early we'll see. And it just can't do some of the very very basic things you would expect that's what right and so it's like okay you have this thing that is more fun to talk to. Understands you better does the sort of basic interface tasks way better like orders of magnitude better than the stuff that we had before but it can't do the things.

I think it was Jared Newman a fast company wrote a thing where he was like it can't tell me what the weather is it can't play the podcasts that I have played because it doesn't have access to my apps it doesn't do turn by turn directions very well. Just all these basic things it's like okay what Google assistant had is is access to the systems that you actually want on your phone right like it was able to use your apps for you.

And Gemini can't use your apps for you but we're replacing the one with the other before it can do both things which to me is just it's like it's so clear that that is what Google thinks is more important.

It feels like a big rush but I'm also I feel not concerned about I feel like that's the kind of thing that they can do a software update and be like yeah now it can do timers now it can tell you the weather like those should be relatively easy things to just pipe in and I think they just haven't because they've been moving.

That quickly to turn this out and compete with Apple like to the point of the this whole event happened a month before what we assume is going to be the Apple iPhone launch and traditionally it's how in October and that was very I think everybody at the industry is just like oh that's just to get ahead of Apple intelligence.

So it definitely feels like they're rushing they're rushing it but at the same time there's a level of polish there but it's not perfect right like there's with Siri and assistant stuff like that you ask a question and it'll pop up something contextually on the screen for you so you can see it there's there's a visual component and there's zero visual component here and I think that if anything was the most annoying element of it because you ask it for question you just expect to see some sort of result in front of you and instead you just see this little glowy screen.

And it's like okay cool like that be cool in my meta glasses that's just not cool on my phone that's a waste of my phone even when I use the chat she would you voice mode which I think I've said it several times I have mapped the action button on my iPhone. Halfway through it talking I'm like I just need to read this like yeah I'm tired of this like I can just read much faster than you can you can machine talk to me robot.

We're going to get another run at this when the phones come out we're obviously going to get a chance to use it more I want to talk for one second to wrap up the Android pixel a conversation. And just talk about the photo stuff for half a second I feel like I could spend five hours talking about what is a photo right now I would say historically speaking that that we've proven that several times so you know the pixel lines coming out that has gotten a chance to use the

picture and some other photo stuff you can go watch that video but we're just in a really weird spot where it seems like the phone makers in particular have utterly given up on the idea that the pictures they take should represent reality what was the line that you pulled out me I where like Google was like we're not even we they don't

do photos anymore yeah so Julian it wire did the peace on the pixel camera this year set down with a bunch of Google folks talk to the camera and new features and why it's better and basically is thesis in this piece is Google is chasing memories not photos.

And so he talked to a Google PM named Isaac Reynolds who says quote it's about what you're remembering when you define a memory that has a fallibility to it you can have a true and perfect representation of a moment that felt completely fake and wrong what some of these edits do is help you create a moment that is the way you remember it that is authentic to your memory and the greater context but maybe isn't authentic to a particular millisecond.

Wow there's a that's a PhD thesis seriously it's beautiful that is a PhD thesis in philosophy right there like what is real is it what you remember or what actually happened.

I don't a PhD thesis I'm just telling you you can spend the rest of your life chasing down that question and Google has just made a decision that what they want to do is help people create the memories they felt they were experiencing as opposed to capturing what actually happened and they're just headed down that road they have been for some time I think not just Google that's everybody like that's a pretty good summation of the whole industry right now yeah it's it's bananas to me

because we live in a time when like synthetic and fake media is everywhere and you can even see that having it exists at all allows bad actors to call into question the significance or reality of real media so Trump saying the Harris rally was quote a

I'd which can we not do that can we just pause real fast like can we not with the a I as a verb that I already mean too many things it's a huge catch all word that has become sort of meaningless can we not make it other parts of speech to I agree we should not use language

Donald Trump uses language but what I'm getting at is you only get to do that if people believe the technology can do it and it is true that people believe the technology can do the stuff for years before Ken but now they're going to hold in their hands the capability on a San Sun phone to circle an empty field and say add a crowd right they can just do it they are going to hold in their hands the ability to add people the photos who

weren't there before with add me on a Google pixel and the companies are marketing this is this makes you more creative that let's you take the photos you want for Google all the way to we want you to create the memories of the things you thought were happening rather than the things that were happening I mean have a like Chinese

phone makers been doing that with we want to create what I think I look like versus what I actually look like with the face tuning like sure it's been happening a while it's one of those things I think what was shocking to me is the ease of access of the tool itself but I'm not like shocked at putting these tools in the phone. But it's weird that they put it in the camera app the add me feature is not like the most AI it's like generating you right doing a bunch of cool stuff.

On a technical level it's it's doing something cool right it's generating a depth map and then using a depth map to realign the multiple photos that's all very cool and I'm confident there's much AI in there that is helping to do that but it the most fundamental level what it's doing is compositing two photos together like you look at the photos that the Hollywood magazines put out with like 500 stars in the cover.

Those are often composite photos and we don't those are at me photos like every single poster movie poster you see is one of those had me photos but like right but I'm never like I wonder if this movie poster happened. Right but I will also say. I got to try it out a little bit at the event and an ad be is certainly really cool but also I would say it's like the royal family level of photoshopping abilities.

Deep cut Alex you see some you see some hands where hands should not be that sort of thing sometimes so it's one of the things where it's like yeah it'll do it at a glance it looks awesome.

It looks really really cool you look closer and you see the edges on this stuff and I'm going to try it as all of these tools but like even the AI one where you circle things and add like that messed up at the event they scroll through it really really fast and they're like here's a hot air balloon and then they like did another one is like a blob in the guy like just speed scroll pass this horrible amorphous block it was pretty great all I'm getting at is those tools aren't great but because they exist and they are broadly accessible.

It's not just that there's a bunch of synthetic photos we can point at and say those are fake. Bad actors are able to point at real photos and say they are fake and we are just barreling towards no one believes anything they see I think we're already there there's a strong argument were already there but do you just remember a bunch of years ago far had man you when he was at the New York Times wrote this really great column about selfie culture.

And his big sort of think he thought that I've been thinking about ever since was basically like we've entered into a place where everything that there is to be photographed has been photographed and so now what's different is that I'm there and that's it's like it's a meaningful thing right it's like I'm this picture is different because it has me in it in the grand canyon you've already seen pictures of the grand canyon so people putting themselves in it as like this is a this is a new way of seeing this because I'm here something like add me just breaks that in the most interesting way.

It's like we talk about sort of the cultural meaning of photos and I was seeing a bunch of people during the Google event be like how on earth can a photo first social network exists after this like if suddenly I can be anywhere at any time doing whatever I feel like just gets weird and I get that add me has some like limitations that make that challenging and arguably the photo for social media has been weird for a while given that like influencers rent sets that look like planes.

Yeah, I'm looking like there's a plane but at least that like cost money and time and effort. Yeah, I agree like what pixel is that what Google has done is just remove a ton of barriers that we're already exist right like Photoshop already existed people faking photos has been happening forever but now it's just like to Nielis point really really easy.

Yeah, it's Samsung faking the moon but it's you and it's everywhere like weird two things one we should have made this that look like a private chat what were we thinking oh my God. We fun to go early on. This should look like a PJ lying down in the PJ. I'm so mad that this room doesn't look like the inside of a private jet.

Second, what we're talking about the cost element the brand of David is the thing yeah it's the thing when when I L M made fake dinosaurs in Jurassic Park there was not a widespread outcry about people believe time starts real small I'll cry somewhere sure. There's actually one line from that movie that should have gotten even more outcry which is you are so busy wondering if you could. Right, I'm just pointing out but when you make it so that everyone's phone.

Lots of raptors in every photo and they look real and you brought the cost to nothing some people are going to believe some dumb stuff and like we're just there and I I agree with you all it's like we might be way past the point of no return or people are just not going to leave anything's true anymore yeah like the needle might just be in the red I'm just deeply cynical.

I think we wrote with the pixel eight last year that we were at the what is a photo apocalypse yeah I'm just saying I'm looking at it now and there's no longer when we were at the pixel eight there was some pushback like we're not doing this for being careful you're over reacting and then this year they're like you can just put yourself in it right and it's like oh we're over it.

There's just a lot there to talk about we're going to get the phones I think we should see how well they work as always but there's a piece of all of this Russian election season where I suspect we are going to be talking about whether or not people believe what they see for a long time now because it's just it's fully off the rails.

All right we should take a break we're going to come back and we're going to talk about televisions I promise you it's going to happen we'll be right back with more of a chest. Fox creative. This is advertiser content from Zo. So I'm on this job listing site and I get a message from a recruiter for a small shipping company the recruiter said all I needed to do was send $500 to cover a mandatory software training and job was mine.

It's games are happening like this more and more because of the change in technology this guy's the limit on scams. So says Deborah backsy a mobile payments and FinTech consultant of over 20 years never be pushed into a sense of urgency always sit back think twice if something seems too good to be true or a little bit weird think about it. But there are steps you could take to help protect yourself.

You should never give out any what we call PII in the industry personal identifying information which includes everything from your mailing address your social security number any kind of banking information. Encountering a crime like this can be a little disorienting stranger than fiction even almost like your in a TV show.

Come in safe squad we got a 10 3 that's why safe squad was made the hottest new fictional crime drama all about how to protect yourself from financial crimes copy that dispatch we're on it. Remember never send money online to people you don't already know and trust learn how you can spot the signs of the scam so you don't have to call the safe squad by visiting www.box.com slash safe squad HQ.

Support for the verge cast comes from square space it's 2024 and that means one of the first places people will look to learn more about you is online and that's why for any new project you need a website luckily building a website is a breeze with square space square spaces and all in one platform that you can use to build a website and help people find your ventures.

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You can get started building an online home for whatever it is you're passionate about like square space says a website makes it real. Head to square space dot com slash verge to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code verge. Baby reindeer has been nominated for 11 Emmy Awards including outstanding limited series. I knew she was bad and I knew she was dangerous but she flattered me.

Richard Gett singular achievement has been hailed as astonishing by the New York Times GQ raves it's as powerful as TV can get. I wanted so badly to be the funny guy. The guardian says Jessica gunning gives a knockout performance. I was thinking you might be the death of me. Stephen Kake proclaims it's one of the best things I've ever seen. I really don't know where it's going to end baby reindeer only on Netflix. Alright we're back. I'm in a different chair in the studio.

I'm on this I'm on this side of the table. It's much more like regal like I want you to give me investment advice from this chair for some reason. Should we invest in Bitcoin to that but I will tell you to smoke all the cigars you can smoke. That's it feels like to me like I should be giving bourbon and cigar advice. We should start that show and my answer is to have as much as you want. That's every fine. It's just a joke. Yeah. It's fine. It's two or three in there all the same really.

Yeah. Alright that's enough we we've done enough philosophizing about AI and platform shifts and whether or not reality is real. Let's talk about the most important tech story of the week which is that as promised I published 2500 words about judging the 2024 TV shootout. I've never been happier in my entire life. Doing the shootout writing the words avoiding the many other lawsuits that happened this week.

If you remember last week I was going to do it and then the Google decision came out the whole week got thrown away and I couldn't talk about TVs. This week I just ignored everything. Google also really ruining everybody's life is what I'm hearing. It's been a hard time on all of us. I think we and one assumes for Google. We should probably we there's some regulatory stuff talking about Google is in a world of her right now what will come to that later.

But we did it again we're going to talk about TV's start talking about Google and trust. Tell us about the TV's. These concepts are so inextricably linked for some bizarre reason. Why? No TVs we're in TVs. There's a really high-end boutique home theater store in Scarcelle, New York called Valley electronics. They've been running the TV shootout for 20 years. This was the 21. You can go Google all the coverage from 20 years 2004. Plasmins are amazing. The whole thing is amazing.

I bought my Sony A95 L there because they have stock. It's actually pretty hard to get that TV but they sell so many of them that Sony gives them. Special applications. I went and bought one from them. I got to talk to the owner Robert Son and his wife Wendy and they were like do you want to judge the shootout this year? And I just imagine I was like yes. Like more than anything I'm just going to my wife and daughter will be fine. I'm just waiting here until the TV shootout begins.

It was a call at the end to judge it. It was an incredible panel. You can look at the story. The pictures are adorable. It was just a bunch of nerds in a room. They cleared out the store and they set up three TVs, three OLEDs and three mini-LEDs from Samsung Sony and LG. And they put $40,000 Sony reference monitors. Like the ones that used for Hollywood and Hollywood in front of them.

And then the first day was the objective day where the task was across a number of clips that they were playing to judge how similar the TVs were to the reference displays. And the TVs had been professionally calibrated by famous calibrators on the AVS forums. I was like in heaven. That's an amazing phrase you just said by the way. By famous calibrators like hell yeah. Now if you're an AVS forum nerd and you have ever just like gone and looked for the settings for a TV.

It was probably Cecil Need or Duane Davis. That's awesome. Who go by classy tech and D nice. I was in heaven. Heaven. Heaven. Like just a bunch of nerds talking about TVs. So where were you on the on the list of like panelists and experts from most to least qualified? Where would you say you were? He's fully the least. Okay. All the other judges are basically like Hollywood types.

Okay. So the director of encoding services at Warner Brothers Discovery, the senior director of technical operations at Paramount, a handful of professional cinematographers and directors, a handful of professional calibrators. So calibrators are that's a real job in this industry. People set up their studios. They bring in the professional calibrators to make sure everything is displaying accurately at every point in the chain.

So from your camera to your display to your master in display, this is a real thing. And so those people have kind of the most knowledge of all of the quirks of all the various displays. Because they're constantly trying to get them to display accurately. And so what was particularly interesting is they know these TVs really well. Because these TVs are showing up increasingly in professional operations.

Because fancy studio executives like watching things on big TVs instead of little reference monitors. And they're like, yeah, these Sony A and 95 else are showing up all over the place as references plays for the executives. And so they just and obviously they do fancy home theaters and other viewing rooms and all this stuff. So it's really interesting talk to them because they're in the weeds of what these things can and can't do. Sort of divorced from any marketing or whatever.

Like they're just trying to make them look good professionally and they're completely aware of the limits of the TVs. So and then there's me and I'm like, I've just been looking at screens for 15 years. I have a lot of opinions. And I thought that was it was kind of interesting to be that person. Because it would like we weren't supposed to talk to each other so much. In the conversations we had, it was kind of interesting how much my instincts were to compare things to like phones and tablets.

And you can see how the TVs relate to what these companies do on their phones and tablets. So I was looking at the Samsung and I was like, oh, it looks like a Samsung. Like I have looked at a lot of Samsung screens over the years and boy to Samsung like nuclear colors. Yeah, Samsung has a move for sure. Yeah, it's like, oh, and they were like, why did they do that? I'm like, I don't know, they just always do that like every Samsung's ever looked at has just been incredibly bright and colorful.

Even at the expense of accuracy. And it was kind of interesting to just have that other perspective in the room. They obviously knew more on the technical elements of the displays. Like they were, they kept bringing up the reference curves on the reference display. Oh, wow. And being like, see this and I'm like, it's a line. Make it brighter. And eventually, you know, you start to pick up on what they were showing you. But it was just like, it was interesting to have that other perspective.

So the fascinating thing about all of this is this is the year that Sony made a big bet on many LED TVs as opposed to OLEDs. So Sony's still selling a bunch of OLEDs. Their flagship TV is still in OLED. That's the A95L. That's a year old now that came out last year, last September, basically. But you know, we're basically a year into it. And the A95L won again. We just won the shootout and last year's TV last year's TV won the shootout. That's a quantum dot OLED. So there's a wider color gamut.

We think it's a Samsung panel. Pretty much the Samsung panel. And then this year's Samsung OLED. We think is the like the next generation quantum dot OLED. But Samsung and Samsung and they did some weird stuff with colors. And like it lost by just like point one. Right. It was just a little bit behind in some things because. And then LG was at the back. And so this is a really weird thing is the 65 inch LG G4 performed much worse than the 83 inch LG G4.

And the collaborators in the room who have been like setting up these TVs for different people are like this is the story with these TVs. So the 65 and then the 77 and up. We are great. The 65 seems to be worse. Oh no, I have to go get a new TV. Well, I mean like one takeaway I'll give everyone is like the OLEDs are so close to each other that it was taking like three times the amount of time to score them. As compared to the reference because you had to see where the differences are.

Whereas on the mini LED side you're like, okay, the LG is bad. No one knows what sounds like. And the Sony is pretty good when I can see these big problems. And so the game on that first day was you had a reference display that was showing ideally what the studio or whoever wants you to see in the picture. That's the reference display. We can ask a really dumb question. Is a reference display like the best one like is that?

Is that how we should think about reference display is like this is the perfect television. Yes. No. Yes. Yes and no. I'll agree with Alex partially, but no, it's the most accurate representation of like the content. So it's the one that like changes the least through the whole pipeline. Yes, it's like you have a display and it is ideally the same display as the person who did the color on the movie. Got it. And it's sometimes the same. It's a different way to say it.

It does stuff that an OLED just can't do, right? Like a reference display is going to do a much smoother gradient of color than an OLEDs capable of. You're going to see those weird stepping that stepping issue and an OLED. And they also have giant ass fans in it. So they could run really bright for a very long time. All the OLEDs were dimming. And you said they're what? 40,000 dollars. Yes. And they're also small.

But interestingly to your point Alex, the cutie OLEDs have the capability of displaying more colors than these reference displays. So there's places where they actually aren't as capable as the television. Right. And so there were scenes I forget which movie it specifically was where we were. It was I think it was like the the Saber fight in Rogue One or Darth Vader's like light people up. Spoiler. I mean, Rogue One is a really good one for that.

Yeah, it's great. Spoiler Darth Vader kills people on a star. What? I know. But one of the questions there was like, is this accurate? Is this accurate because the people who made the movie were just sort of mastering to whatever set of colors, but they couldn't see them. So then it's like, is it different? Is it bad? It was kind of that was pretty interesting, right? Yeah. And so the reason that the first day was objective, but the goal was one out of five.

How much is this the same as the reference display, which is a really interesting way of thinking about it a picture. Because sometimes you like, this is better. I think this is better than the reference display, but it was different. So you knocked it down. And that took a while to get your head around basically. This is where like I just accuracy is king for me in TVs. Because I've done the calibration. Like I went to to to to ISF and did like the week long course with them and everything.

So I love the accuracy. And so when I hear like, oh, the Samsung is probably doing more displaying more reds. Well, those reds were never intended to be displayed according to the reference monitor. So is that actually better? No, because that's. Yeah. Like the director could never have decided that. So therefore it's not better. Yeah. And we see that a lot with like classic film too, like all the all the stuff they captured on technicolor is so much more vibrant.

And that was before we even had color spaces is like a concept. And and and so it's just totally different and it's weird. It's just weird. So you're a real like what did the what did the founding fathers intent? Yeah. I'm a founders intent. I'm me and Scalia or over there. Yeah. You're truly the answer and Scalia TV calibrations. Where's Neil? It's just like what looks sick now? Like it's 2024 baby giving them reds. I saw it famously love the Samsung display. How many frame TV is to you?

Not even in the mix. I was putting that out there. I'm sitting next like a hundred inch frame TV. And it's like the TV quality of frame compared to all of these is like, man. That's what your back to it. Can you describe it a picture quality is present because that is the Samsung. Appears. That's what a Samsung frame TV looks like. Well, fastening on the mini. It's all really close out. It's like some color stuff aside in this like, you know, the fact that the QD.

Oh, let's have a wider color gamut is like kind of interesting. But like outside of that context, it would be almost impossible to own part. Yeah. And that and honestly it was like the way you could tell was it was taking so long for people to score them. Because the difference between a four and a five is like when I see any. It's like, what is it? It was only the LG that was like, it just was really muddy in dark scenes. It just like didn't have the detail dark scenes at the other one said.

Weird. On the mini LAD side, everyone was like, all right, that one's bad. This one's good. Except for the Sony because Sony is putting so much emphasis on mini LAD this year. Like they're the Bravia 9, which apart from the A95 is like the flagship. It's the one they're pushing. All mini LEDs, they get hell of bright because they're just LCD TVs with an LED backlight. And you're like, oh, this tech has a long way to go and it could get there, but it's nowhere close.

Like they look kind of washed out. The colors are a little shifted. The detail isn't quite there. They're still a little blooming. So if you think about how a mini LED backlight works, it's just another screen of pixels behind the screen that light up. Like it's a lower red screen behind the screen that lights up to produce light. And it has to match what's on the screen in real time. So you get true blood.

So they're off when there's something black and they're lit when there's something on the screen. So if there's any latency, you see blooming. Right. Or if the zone is too big because it's not one to one, you see blooming. And so you can see in the algorithms are like trying to manage all of this as fast as they can with as little latency as possible. The Samsung was like all over the place. Like sometimes this just looks like a regular like local dimming TV.

The Sony was much better, but still had the problems. And then all of them because they're LCDs, they're viewing angles aren't as good as the OLEDs. And they're huge. Right. These 65 inch 83 inch TVs we're looking at. So if you were too close to them, even just moving an inch or two to the left or right, shifted all the color and brightness. And you're like, oh, we're just not close. Like Sony is trying the hardest here, but we're not close.

I just, I don't understand why we would go backwards on viewing angle. Because they're cheaper because you can 83 inch TV for much cheaper. And it's very bright and very impressive. And outside of that room full of the most incredible display nerds I've ever met my entire life. And I want all of them to come on with me tomorrow. Outside of that room, I think it would be very hard to tell these TVs apart.

But it was like just that experience of paying such close attention to one quality of these products with other people who were doing that same task. It was like very refreshing to me. We weren't judging whether or not Tyson is any good compared to WebAlas. We weren't judging how many HDMI 2.1 ports the Sony TV has not enough. Right. Like none of that stuff, game mode, all that. We were like, can this picture be calibrated to match a reference monitor and which one comes closer?

And that, there was just a part of that having reviewed so many products over the years and had to think about so many things. It's like, oh, this is actually a really interesting way of thinking about these products specifically. Was there a consistent agreement among the, what was it, eight panelists? That's a lot of people to all point at this same, like, it's both objective and subjective in a certain way. Like did everybody tend to agree on everything?

We weren't, we were also excited to be there when we started judging, we were all chattering and then we were like, told to stop. Okay. So our score, I don't know what everybody else scored. You know, like a worry for me is like the consumer reviewer in the group was that I had no idea what I was talking about. I was like, man, I hope my scores are close. And they were.

In the end, you know, the average, the averages that were released and the rankings that were released were exactly as I had thought them. I feel like I was in an mainstream, you know, I think the one LG stand in the room who's like, I love blooming. That LG Mini LED is not good. Like, it's like I have hearted. And to be fair, it was the cheapest TV on display, like thousands of dollars. So they put all their efforts into Olets anyway. Like they just farted that out.

Yeah, it's like, let's head your bed a little bit. Like maybe this is the thing. But yeah, they have the micro lens array, which increases the brightness on their Olets. Like I said, the three Olets were so close to each other. You can tell that it's a mature technology. Right. It's just hit a point of refinement where you have to care a lot about extremely like arcane picture details. And Alex, I think you and I vibe on this. Yeah. I care a lot about arcane picture details.

The Mini LED is like all of my notes on the color for the Sony Bravia 9 were was just the single sentence colors all over the map. Like just all over the place. Like who knows what's going on here. So that was like the first day. The second day was much more subjective. They took down the 65s. They put up the biggest available sizes for all the TVs. So that was 77 for the Sony 83 for the LG 85 for the Mini LEDs.

And the Roberts on the owner was like, I've never had more people ask for a head to head comparison of two TVs. The people ask for the LG G483 versus the Sony Mini LED 85. Because they're very price competitive and one is obviously bigger. Right. That's the TVs people have big cheap screens. It's just like this is whatever it wants to see. So those two are right next to each other. And the LG just wiped the floor. Wow. So much better. Just incredibly better.

And the fact that the LG 83 was so much better than 65 that's what everyone talked about. But we weren't doing the intense reference comparison on today. They took them. They set them up out of the box. They turned on filmmaker mode to turn off all the bullshit. And they turn off energy saber because energy saber brings the brightness down. Yeah. Energy saber is the number one thing you should turn off on your display. I mean, destroy it. Destroy the environment. But just go turn.

If you have it on right now, go turn it off. Right. It just significantly reduces the brightness of your panel. So they turn off energy saber and they put them in filmmaker mode. Or I think Sony calls professional mode just turns off all the stuff. And they let them run out of the box. And that's where like Samsung was the most Samsung like your colors. Do you like them? And I, you know, the LG the 83 inch LG just was just a great picture. Right.

Like it was right behind the Sony and that evaluation. But we weren't doing numbers. We were just sort of ranking one, two, three for all the clips that we saw. And I at the end. And we can just wrap it up here at the end. I was basically put the Samsung QD OLED, the S95D and the Sony Manality were in a tie for me. It was hard for me to decide because the Samsung colors were so all over the place. And the Sony's backlight was so over the place. And the view angle is weird. And I couldn't decide.

And in the end, I was like, it's an OLED because I know the Samsung can be calibrated. And I know the Sony can't. So that's high-picked. Again, like my takeaway from this was one of the things that I wanted to do. I wanted to take away from this was one I should spend more time in rooms with huge nerds. Yes. Because those are my people. And I would say what? Like $100,000 worth of TVs? More wallet for more. I mean, like this store is out of control. Like that's just the TV.

So we didn't even talk about the audio side of the store. And Scar's Del is a wealthy town. This may be like, we're moving product. And it was great. And he sells, you know, in the country. And they've been doing it for a long time. The room was full of Sony's actual mark, like product people. Not just like that. So this is like matters. This is not just like a small town bunch of nerds. This is like a TV shootout. There's a thing. There's a press release of like a whole thing.

Like there are YouTubers there making YouTube videos. There are YouTubers live streaming with the calibrators. Just talking TVs in the back room. Yeah. I think that's a big 10,000 words on the calibrators. So that's coming. That's actually a great name for a show. The calibrators. It is pretty good. I would watch it. And the picture over the course of every episode, the picture just gets slightly better. That's my TV story. I finally got to talk about it. It's on the site now.

You should go read it. I'm sorry if you have an LGG4. And you, it's a great TV. You're fine. Don't listen to me. Just give it a 10. Just saying, I'm just so disappointed. I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm working through it. I'll be fine. Alex, if you want, I'll take your crappy TV. Anyone who would like to give me their very good TVs, I will happily take them. We can go complain until it's over. It's so crappy. It's terrible. Can I say one more thing?

The opening of this whole event, they're talking about the TVs and what they are and all the stuff. And they said two things. One, they're like TCL and high sense aren't here. They asked not to be included in a competition. Because they were going to lose. You can just read into that. And later, Robert was like one year of his year was here and it was embarrassing for me. Oh boy. So that's you read that whenever you want. Does he a rough?

It's a real like I will not be running for president in 2024 and develops. Yeah. Okay. That was it. That was my TV adventure. Thank you for joining me on this journey. This is why I started the Verge. So I could sit in a room full of TV. Do you think Dylan will invite you back next year? Did you do a good enough job? I hope so. I hope. Can we come with you? We'll be quiet. We'll just stand there. Alex and I are live streaming next year.

Chris Welch, if you wanted to come with you next year and he goes, I don't want to get into that level of smoke. I respect that. Yeah. It was great. All right. We should talk about just a handful of regulatory things. What do you want to call them? But the main one that I really want to spend just a minute on is Apple and it just can't give itself a break when it comes to the App Store and fees. It's on the floor all over the world. It has an antitrust lawsuit in this country in the EU.

Various charming European bureaucrats wake up every morning thinking about ways to troll Tim Cook on Twitter. This company is under a lot of pressure and then it won't just do things that make it life easier. I don't know how to describe this, but this is I'm going to tell you this story. If people out there can figure out why Apple did this, let us know. Patreon exists. You can be a fan of someone.

You can pay them some money to do whatever people on Patreon do, knit, clothes, make video games, whatever it is, Patreon. They've been in a grey zone with the App Store for years because you can pay people money in Patreon and they haven't been charging the fees. They haven't been giving Apple the 30%. I actually had Patreon CEO Jack Conte on Dakota a while ago and I said, have you ever talked Apple about this? Are you an exception? He was like, no. Please stop talking about it.

They know they're in this grey area. There are other companies that want to do Patreon like things like this little company fan house. They did a whole pressure campaign to say, why are you charging our creators 30%. This is unfair. You're providing no value to them. The idea is if you sign up for a creator subscription inside of the app, Apple will treat that as an in-app purchase and take its 30%.

They see signing up for whatever my favorite podcast on Patreon add the same as signing up for Spotify through the app. Sure. If you want to be very pedantic, that is probably the correct interpretation. For years, it wasn't. That feels important to keep saying. Particularly for Patreon, they have been in this grey area for years. You are a Patreon creator. You sign up for Patreon. You agree Patreon is going to take 8% and you're going to take the rest of the money.

That's fine. That's a fine deal. Apple is like, we went 30% before Patreon takes 8%. Now, someone did the math instead of needing a thousand true fans, or the number everybody always says, you need 1,554 fans to make the same money that you were doing before. That's weird. It is weird because Apple doesn't need this fight right now. It's under all of this pressure for whether or not these fees are fair, whether the app stores fair, whether Apple has too much power in the market overall.

Anitrust saw it in this country. I figured out why they did it. Whoever sent the email and was like, we're going to start charging to 30% of Patreon is actually like, was placed there by someone else to just make Apple give up. You put a United States Department of Justice sleep. Yeah. They're just a spy or something and they were saying it. Why would you do that? Tonight. On the calibrators. Yeah. Yeah, the calibrators went in. They like, they, they, they, they, they parished you to then.

And they were like, okay, we're going to do this so that we give even more ammunition for when we go after Apple for all the things we're going after Apple for around the 30%. Yeah, maybe it just seems like there are ways to make your life easier and there are ways to make your life harder. Pissing off a bunch of independent creators to whom you are providing no value, right? You can make the argument that Apple provides a lot of value to its developers, right?

They make the APIs, they shift the platform, they run some of the services, they make Xcode. Sure. That's very debatable, like truly debatable. Yeah. But you can make the argument and a lot of people have if you were a Patreon creator, no value is coming your way from Apple. You're actually coming from Patreon and you already pay them money, right? So like why Apple's showing up and be like, we want 30%. That, it's just like too much.

Yeah. And I suspect a lot of these Patreon creators are going to tell their audience is about it. And now Apple is right in a fight with creatives. Do they sort of keep walking into like their crush ad that they had to apologize for? Like why they just keep making their life harder with these creatives? And I just don't know for what money? Like if you took 30% of all of Patreon's revenue and you gave it to Tim Cook, you'd be like, get out of my face. Yeah. Like this is nothing.

Yeah. Like this isn't even gasped for the jet. It probably isn't. The only thing I can think is that Apple is desperately trying to get to a place where it can say with a straight face that it enforces all of its rules equally. Because one of the things that has happened to Apple over and over is that it keeps saying these are the rules. And we were very clear about them and we apply them to everybody. And then every 15 minutes we hear about a sweetheart deal that somebody has from Apple.

Right. And there are the rules exist except for all of the exceptions to the rules. And I think if your Apple, one thing to do would be to say, okay, we're going to need to be able to stand up for regulators and say, look, these are the rules they exist for everybody. Everybody follows them equally. I don't think that's a good strategy. I don't think it's going to work.

But I think if you're Apple, it is at least one way to be able to say with a straight face, look, these are the rules we're clear about them. You don't have to play by them anymore because you can go to Alt Store or whatever. But these are the rules. I think doing this this way and particularly in these very like haphazard ways that Apple seems to be doing this is deeply bizarre.

But I think if if you're Apple, I cannot think of another reason to pick this particular fight with Patreon right now other than this. Well, so just to be clear on some of the timing, they told Patreon this is going to happen a while ago and that's just happening. But there's no reason that it should be happening. So that's like, it's not that they woke up yesterday and were like, Patreon's going to pass.

They said, here's a big notice period and now it's happening and now Patreon is communicating about it. Right. So a more delayed timeline. But still, even if you want to make the argument, we have perfect enforcement of these rules and there are no exceptions. You're still walking into and we've pissed everyone off along the way. I'll give you another example. Apple is going to allow Spotify to show pricing and its app in the EU.

Just the thing that is happening is that Spotify is going to put numbers in its app. You still can't buy Spotify in the app. There's a there's I really encourage everyone if you're not driving to we'll put this link in the show notes. But open it up and look at the side by side screenshots because it is this big dramatic regulatory moment in this long term fight between Apple and Spotify.

It's a big deal and then you look at the side by side screenshots and they are identical except that one of them says 1799 per month, 1499 per month and the other doesn't. That's it. And this took like, you know, one of the more powerful government entities in world history to like force the one of the richest companies in world history to let another company show numbers. And you're like, what is the point of this fight? Who gives one solitary shit? It's like, you can't possibly care.

This cannot matter to your bottom line so much. Or and it can't be such a good argument that your rules are so evenly enforced that you're willing to die in this hill over displaying literally 1799 in this Spotify app. But they don't even have to buy stuff. Just showing the price that you can get on the web versus in the app. The only part of that I would take issue with is the it can't possibly matter so much to your bottom line. I mean, like Apple just reported earnings.

It's super, super does matter to Apple's bottom line. And especially if you're Apple looking at a world in which Google is no longer legally allowed to give you $20 billion every year. Like this stuff matters an awful lot to Apple. And suddenly the rent that you get to extract from everyone in the app store goes from like small but meaningful part of your business to like 80% and meaningful part of your business. Do you think that's part of it too?

It's just they their services because they've been bundling that $20 billion into the services reporting. Yeah, it's the lion's share of both the services revenue and Apple's profits. And they've been really big on, yeah, this is our services is doing great. And now it's going to be like, no, it actually it doesn't. Well, the Google remedy is years away. So reacting to the Google case like clamping that on Patreon. That would be a little bit more. A little bit more.

I think I don't think it's gas for the jet. It is not a huge amount of money. But I think their general attitude towards all of these regulators and all these courts saying, yep, these platforms need to open up. Has basically been to put a middle finger in the air instead of figuring out how to innovate. Right. And like I just I'm just saying they could make their lives easier and not harder. And they are consistently choosing harder. Yes. And it is bizarre to me.

There's a little more regulatory stuff to talk about because this comes right next to the judge in the epic Google and I trust case saying he will tear the barriers down on the Play Store. Because he ruled that the Play Store is a monopoly. And he's like, we're opening up the Play Store United States. Obviously the court in the Google search case found that there was a monopoly. And then Google's ad tech case kicks off in early September. And that probably is not going to go port.

Like of all of the cases where we're going to see a bunch of emails of Google executives saying shady things about money. The ad tech case is the one. Oh yeah. Right. That's the one. It's so boring and so consequential. Right. So you just see like Google is under all of this pressure and the the judges in these cases and the regulators in the year like we're in this company part. And Apple sitting there with the big open and I trust case to come.

And obviously empowered justice department because they just won the big Google trial and they got the next one coming. And then a bunch of e regulators are doing it. And it's like, why are you signaling to all of these people that your response that's putting your finger in there? Like it's not going to work because they're winning right now in Google in a real way. And maybe Google is more cuddly than Apple. Maybe people like Apple better than Google.

However, those optics feel they're on the hunt and they're winning. And so like if you add there's just something weird about this. I was like it's bad optics to go take a cut of 30% from a whole bunch of creators who don't make a lot of most of them aren't making a ton of money. Right. And then there's bad optics and just such an unforced error. It feels like them just stepping in rakes constantly.

They're just sideshow Bob. If you know what this strategy here is, please let us know because I'm dying to know. If you even want to concoct a strategy, we're not being successful at it. But there's a thing happening like broadly in the world of tech right now where the regulators are winning. And the platforms are being pride open and distribution is getting a little crazier.

And it's like kind of interesting for us right like it means more interesting things are happening like Alt Store is just a thing that's happening EU emulators are happening all over the iPhone right now because of EU regulation. The emulators are cool like they're downstream of some boring lawyer stuff. But now you can run Dawson or iPhone right.

So it's worth pointing out how big a shift all of that is from even let's say 12 months ago. Like I think the bet this time last year would not have been on huge wins for the US government in particular right. It was it was perceived that the EU had wildly overstepped its bounds and that that was all going to get very weird.

But like Lena Khan was having a really bad time picking fights with tech companies and it wasn't going well and it didn't go well and over and over this sense was like what what is happening here the tech companies are going to keep winning Apple was kind of winning against epic Google lost but in kind of a like not necessarily quite as terrifying way.

But just the momentum felt very different not that long ago and I think it has maybe not caught up to everybody how quickly and aggressively it seems like the wins on all of that stuff have changed. Yeah. And in part because of what you're saying the things like the emulators right like with every little crack like product changes are happening and there was the the one just this week with Apple opening up tap to pay stuff like that's been in the antitrust trials.

And then there's one of the things that Apple has kept really aggressive control over like we talked a lot about digital wallets on the show and this came out because like and that's the kind of stuff that is making big changes just because of the threat of regulatory action right like all this stuff is going to take a decade to play out. But it doesn't matter because as soon as it starts playing out.

Yeah, and I I just think we're on the cusp of we've talked about this a million times the show it just feels like everything is about to change like the internet is about to change our social networks about change search about change and then this stuff is going to break these companies open.

I am hopeful we see around of interesting new innovative companies and products and ideas most a little worried that like mostly we're going to get lawsuits and I'm going to try to talk about many LED TVs every week and instead after read PDFs even on this own show we have now sandwiched. The television discussion inside of antitrust conversations I don't know why this keeps happening to me but my solemn promise to all of you.

Is that any time we talk about antitrust I will bring up all our televisions. I actually believe that yeah. Alright we got to take a break we're going to come back to the point around and I'll be in a third chair. There's a lot of things you might say when your small business has a problem. You've got to be kidding me come on well I didn't see that one coming. But that won't get you to help your business needs. What you should really say is something that can help.

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Download the Experian app. Results will vary not all subscriptions are eligible savings are not guaranteed paid membership with connected payment account required. Hey suburb here Megan Rapino women's sports are reaching new heights these days. And there's so much to talk about so Megan and I are launching a podcast where we're going to deep dive into all things sports and then some. We're calling it a touch more.

Because women's sports is everything pop culture economics politics you name it and there's no better folks than us to talk about what happens on the court or on the field and everywhere else too. And we'll have a whole bunch of friends on the show to help us break things down. We're talking athletes actors comedians maybe even our moms that'll be a fun episode.

Whether it's breaking down the biggest games or discussing the latest headlines we'll be bringing a touch more insight into the world of sports and beyond. Follow a touch more wherever you get your podcasts new episodes drop every Wednesday. All right we're back. I'm in what I think of as the homeboy chairs. It's beautiful when you got the NBA players in here during the podcast this is where the homeboy said.

Yeah. You look like you should be like you look like a professor during the pandemic who like went a little hard on. Re-decker in the home office. That's right that's also this look. You know sidekick homeboys professor with an extra hand. The slats are like it's very trippy. So we we bought very similar slats for the studio at my house and. You know I don't know whose fault this is or if this is racist but we forgot to consider that this they're the same color as me.

So we had to stay in the slots. Just turn to the side you'll disappear in the frame. It's very good anyway this is well I'm in the loose hangout you might call this the hype desk. It's a very fast one could yeah one could one one could say we are now in the market for someone to sit in the hype desk during the first weekend because we have a hype zone over here in the studio the eyes yet unsponsored unlaunched hype desk. Look once we get this lightning round sponsored we're moving on.

But now that I'm in the hype desk I think David that makes you you got to run the lighting round and I'm just going to. Say whether or not things are hype okay good well now that now that I'm in charge I picked six things for the lighting round. Classic classic lightning round no at crans let's let's let's start with you. You have a fun gadgety one so you go. Yeah I got a fun gadgety one so so real me is a Chinese phone maker and they make phones.

I don't want to I don't want to make a big assessment on the quality of those phones. They are phones we can say they are phones and they are really into like making the charging better and faster and they introduced 320 watt fast charging. Just that's great it's it's they're doing they said they could do a battery in four minutes and 30 seconds like a pixel nine battery. Wait isn't the plug I have in the wall like seven and a half watts and I'm pretty sure like 30 is like very fast.

Yeah so this is this isn't saying unclear if it will burst into flames as soon as you plug it in unclear if it'll set your phone up like a Thunderbolt 4 or a Slile cable like a big thick. I wouldn't feel comfortable you're not sending this through like a like a flimsy like lightning. Yeah this is not what you want to use like that random cable you found at the bottom of your desk. Don't don't use that. You're probably like a CCS charger under your feet. Yeah yeah so it's USB-C right now.

What can USB-C do except tell you what it's doing. But they haven't really like there's no phones that's really fully supported out in the wild. It's just technology they just said we did it this was kind of there they were doing their road show and showing off their new technology and it's like yeah we're going to do this soon. So at some point we're going to have phones charging in four minutes and that'll rule unless they catch on fire.

Can I just say my favorite part of the story is the main story is great we should show the funds faster. The press image they supplied is incredible. It's just like a happy guy saying we have a screen that says 320 watts supersonic charge and he just pleased this punch. What else do you need? That's all you need like that's how I feel when I read 320 watts. I'm like okay yeah same feeling.

Like I wish I was giving this presentation right now like I truly can we get the words 320 watts supersonic charge in this TV please. They also they call the charger the pocket cannon which is unbelievable yeah just great. It's great tremendous everything about it's wonderful and but we'll have to see if it actually does it not just in a demo.

I have for years thought that the thing that all these companies say that it's like you know the battery is trash but it charges pretty fast you can get from 0 to 50% in 35 minutes. I've always kind of thought that was nothing like I cares but the idea of fully charging my phone in four and a half minutes it's like okay I can plug it in my phone I can brush my teeth and my phone is going to be at like 70% is awesome. You can also heat a small village you can fry one egg.

It's going to be great you can I do like the idea of of both turning my oven on and charging my phone at the same time. No I think you'll blow a circuit break right. It's like a hot plate and a phone charger all in wrong little it'll give smell on my table. This is great the street the street lights for miles around dim when David plugs in his phone. I'm just looking at this photo this guy smiling at the words 320 watts supersonic charge and I think more of the tech industry should be like this.

Yeah that's why I have for you I will take a pocket cannon. I feel like I can live just to get a lot of podcasts but yeah here we are all right I have to the first one I actually should have brought this up at the top where we were talking about all the AI image processing stuff.

But how lied a very good camera app for iPhones and iPads launch the thing this week called process zero that is basically just a setting inside of their app that instead of running every photo you take through either apples I think they offer apples standard image processing.

The pro raw processing and then a thing they call reduced which is just kind of a light version of apples processing runs it through no processing so you get you get what is supposed to be as close to like a film camera experience as possible you just get the light it collects. The end a super cool feature got a lot of people very excited this idea that like we can actually choose to go another way it's going to make some of your photos meaningfully worse.

It's going to change them in certain ways but I think that idea of like not only do I get to pick like where I am in the photo which is weird but like I have actually real control over what is happening to my photo every time I capture it is very cool.

Also just the idea that a camera on your phone can have that kind of access is very cool and not a thing I really understood until I started writing about this thing that like it's again it's just collecting sensor data and if you give apps like how I'd access to that sensor data there's all kinds of interesting stuff they're going to be able to do with it. And I just think that's very cool and a sort of rich vein that at least to my knowledge nobody has really explored.

And I think that's really cool if you don't know a lot about photography don't use that feature all your photos are going to look like this agree I did this. You learn a lot about photography that's true I'm assuming of like the the 70 year old who listens to the verge cast and it's like you know what I want this sounds cool I want to put this on that person what are you doing with your time. Get out there take oh I see got it understood so just Alex's mom.

I've hung out with your mom before Alex I'll teach you about about digital. You say that now that'll be great for our verge cast. I think people will listen to talk about a patreon just me and your mom.

But what's really interesting here is pocket point and shoot digital cameras are making a tiny blip of a comeback yeah particularly with younger folks because they see how bad the processing on our phones has gotten and they don't want to be always connected like my nieces and nephews are all carrying power shot elfs and I'm like.

I made a lot of mistakes with those cameras don't do it I did but it's fast enough see that little comeback is it meaningful is it the threat to smartphone no none of that. But it is a pushback on how process the photos are getting yeah and I think you know an app putting some of those photos into the phone might push the default cameras back towards sanity and I'm.

Kind of hoping apple takes the hit right there's you've they've overdone it samsung has overdone for years Google has been inching towards over doing it. I think it's apple has taken kind of the most aggressive step from the 12 or the 13 to now. Where it's like oh this is these photos just bananas yeah I like the photos less on my iPhone 15 then I have in a long time from the iPhone like they I think in a certain way they are like technically better photos.

I like them less like my photos don't look like I feel like they should anymore on the most smartphones but the iPhone I think held out a long time but that has kind of gone away what is it that that I guess I maybe don't see it as much what is it that that you guys are seeing when you do that is it like is it the color is it the dynamic range.

All of it it's all of it that the things for me I'm curious David since you have the same opinion if you're seeing something different and for me it's the the iPhone is now just completely allergic to shadows just takes away it loves the sky like nothing loves the sky like the iPhone camera loves the sky. So just like more sky but not the sky as it is like what if the sky was the best it has ever been in history all the time every time you take a photo.

Oh my God sky oh turn up that sky now yeah like oh no it's gray out today I think iPhones like the fuck it is let's go. And then those things combined if you're outside in a bright scene you can actually make your photos great. Right so I was thinking about dynamics like if you're a music person you know dynamics right quite in lab like there's dynamics in photographs too and so everything is bright that perceived brightness of the whole image drops.

And so the iPhone by getting rid of shadows and pumping up the sky and then over it's like bringing everything up actually makes the photo looked in and I've seen influencers like complain about their iPhone cameras and they're like why does this camera so great like I think Alex Earl has made a video about why her camera appears to be great.

Right and like that's bad like you don't want to be there right when you are the the hardware of the entire creator economy having the creators being why is my phone great. And it's not because they're less bright it's because if you destroy all the shadows and you make everything bright. Actually everything looks to and that's just kind of a weird spot apples going to I don't know David is I were you're seeing tears it's something else.

No that's basically right and the other thing I keep noticing and in the the highlight story I wrote there's a really interesting comparison shot where what apple does by getting rid of shadows wherever it can and hyping up the brightness everywhere you can is it just it just flattens it all to so there's a there's a version of the shot that is like it's a it's the front of a flower shop.

And so you see all this sort of the flowers in the pots in the front and the photo is like crisper and brighter than the one that you got with the process zero thing that how that is doing. But it's also much less like dynamic the photo itself there's no there's no sense of sort of ups and downs you get the sense the whole curve is just like bright.

And it makes the whole thing look really flat come like you're talking about me like and it just it makes all the photos less interesting in a way like they're brighter and cooler and less interesting to me in so many ways yeah and there's other stuff is there's like weird sharpening when you get in the low light. I phones just start freaking out yeah and like not in a bad way they're not like making.

And technically bad for this I think it's what you're getting David they're just trying so hard to make a great photo that you lose the character of it and there's tons and tons and tons and processing like right and I think we're seeing a lot of coming back with the point shoots and the process zero stuff like this whole idea is like I people should be allowed to take

a good photo you know what I mean it's like there's something to if I'm standing in a dark room and I take a picture maybe it's actually okay that the picture is dark like maybe that's okay and sometimes that's what I want and increasingly with these devices you are not allowed to take a dark photo and I think that's just weird. I'm going to say sentence that a small number of people will understand the significance of.

I'm probably XCX invited the cover snake to a birthday party that it's a real thing and if you were in your 20s in the early 2000s you're like oh it's back. It's just fully back. We're still getting that whole aesthetic is back and like we're just going to do flash photos of drunk people and like let's do it the iPhone can't do that shit.

No one wants that no. All right my other one and then need I we should get to you and then we should get out of here is flipward which is we've been sort of chronically flipwards like relentless quest to figure out the fedavers which I continue to find very interesting. Turned on a thing that I think is actually very instructive in understanding how all of this is supposed to work which is just that now you can follow.

Fed of us accounts so like people from mastodon or pixel fed or even on threads. From inside of flipward right and it's like if you want to understand the way the fedavers is supposed to work it's that where you make posts and where you read posts can be different and that anybody can decide how those

are supposed to look and how they're supposed to work and in order they show up and so like the idea that you can do mastodon inside of flipboard is both like mind bending and exactly the point and so if you've like wanted to understand how the fedavers works go to flipboard and like mess around with a bunch of mass that on stuff they put together some lists I think one that includes you need a lot because you're just a tremendously huge deal

of course but like that I think this is the closest thing I've seen to like telling the whole story of like here is here is what you get when all you have is just this massive content that you can either build something that adds to or build something that reads from however you want so I think that was very cool. Yeah. That's awesome.

Flipward is way ahead of this curve right there they like re architected their app or the way they're thinking about their app around activity pub in these open protocols and you kind of have it you know in the broadest sense like the future of a browser yeah but it's by direction like you take content and you get to read it and you can like reply to it and it goes right back to the person who made it and it's pretty powerful. Nothing works with it yet.

Like which is a problem but you can just see there's like glimmers here of a new kind of web. I'm the one who keeps babbling on about how we're going to federate our site you can see how our site would play with something like that very quickly but then you start to build it and we're trying to build it and it's like

there's a million problems to solve here like big hairy technical problems that no one has ever really tried to solve before which is why it was you know threads is federating and they are doing it and like drip by drip like they're solving one little problem at a time they they let you know that someone in the fed

like one of your posts that was just a problem to solve they now they now they see those posts we can't reply to them now they let you like those posts we can't reply to them obviously we're playing in this going next and all of that is just like where does the day to go if you want to delete something how do you delete it across all of these servers that have now ingested it maybe you can't.

It's weird right if someone replies to me on another server with another kind of moderation policy and put something bad in my replies on my site or in mass like how do I moderate that big questions like huge earth shattering questions like that obviously have made the process slow for everyone but you're like oh these are new problems like I'm in the market for new problems

like we've never thought about these problems before fun like this is great so I'm very excited just like see everyone making slow progress here I just have a question which is the bigger platform shift jibb and I live or flip board you know you know I you know I believe it's the fed up I'm part of heart I believe it's the fed up I just really wanted to hear a

little bit more about this all say flip board is the platform shift this week I like flip board I think they do really interested I have flip board is a platform to I think it's part of the platform shift about how information moves around the internet that you know if you are going to break something like Google through regulatory action or just killing stuff yeah Google end of life Google search seems like a likely outcome it's more likely than not you know like giving Google's history

if all that stuff is breaking down in all you know the photo based networks are flooded with synthetic images no one can trust you need to make something else and it seems like everyone has bet on open interoperable networks this time and I do think that is fundamentally a bigger shift that more people will feel then Gemini maybe on long term obviously I will do all

the things and none of us will have to work and there are lots of spring and spina coladas but right now I think it's the social web yeah I agree all right Nila what's yours before we get out of here what is mine this is what happens when you're in a side picture you're not prepared you just hit a hype yo good point okay so mine is actually related to AI so Eric Schmidt used to be the CEO of Google he gave a talk recently he got dinged for a lot of stuff he

gave in this talk and he asked for the talk to be taken off of YouTube not a great cycle right you get a talk it's Stanford you're like oh no you're quoting my talk please remove it from YouTube it wasn't there a moment in it where he he's like this is off the record and the person he's talking to like points at the camera yeah so the thing he got in trouble for the asked for the talk to be taken down was he said Google was behind an AI

because the workers prioritized working from home in snacks as supposed to be competitive from the pharmacy of Google it's not go well like just what are you talking about just a bad take yeah yeah there's a million reasons and I don't think it's the people who work at Google who made the strategic

errors right yeah but whatever and also Google is you know this is coming on the heels of like the pixel event where Google is like doing huge muscular AI stuff yeah whatever so he got in trouble for that Alex he threw a quick host about it he's like here's this thing happened the video

got taken down and then Alex got a transcript of the thing you actually watch pretty the video and Schmidt said something else I think is very fascinating very telling and I think very important to understanding not just Silicon Valley but Google and

Google's place in the world so he said to this room full of like Stanford students a lot of you are going to be tech people I hope a lot of you know what I would do right now if TikTok was banned I propose each and I quote I propose each and every one of you

say to your LLM the following make me a copy of TikTok steal all the user steal all the music put my preferences in it produce this program in the next 30 seconds release it and one hour if it hasn't gone viral do something different along the same lines what element element so first of all yeah I don't know what kind of magic LLM like it best you're going to be on a bang the side pad like that's what he's using the rabbit we all expected to see that so for but I get you

understand what he's saying he's like if TikTok is banned just clone it just take it yeah take the music take the users take the content just make a clone of TikTok and stand it up and people start using it if they don't do it again and his point was the quote the example I gave the TikTok competitor is what that's what you do if you are a icon Valley entrepreneur which hopefully all of you will be if it took off you would hire a whole bunch of

lawyers to go clean up the mess but if nobody uses a product it doesn't matter that you stole the content wait wait what's what's the next line and do not quote me yeah whoopsies so I might my point of this is Eric Schmidt ran Google in the early period right he was famously the adult they hired to run Google well I don't worry in Sergey we're growing up or whatever they're doing finding learning whether or not

toe shoes were for them Eric is the adult in the room this is what Google did and not in a small way in a big open way they just built a company on copyright infringement they hired a bunch of lawyers and clean up the mess and they were a friendly company with two lovable goofballs is their founders they were providing an enormously valuable service at the time Google search was enormously valuable Google book search copyright

lawsuit enormously valuable YouTube enormously valuable built on copyright infringement particularly in spycom so valuable that the icon lost its copy infringement case because of I come's own people kept uploading the content to you to like ridiculous but this this is how Google worked in the beginning that is the attitude we're going to make the thing it's going to be so useful people are going to love it and then when the

copy are infringement cases or whatever other lawsuits come we will have enough money to pay lawyers to make it go away and Google did it that actually worked it was a successful strategy at the time it was successful for other companies like Uber or whatever it is right we are at a point now where the AI companies kind of want to run the same playbook Google wants to run the same playbook with AI and training

and they're not lovable goofballs anymore yeah and so when Eric Schmidt is at Stanford complaining that you know the kids aren't working hard enough anymore and then on top of it being like just steal the stuff and figure it out later the attitude that he say that the like the world's attitude in response to that is no where near is friendly as it was when they were building Google and I I think it's actually kind of fasting to see that

but I don't know like Alexis Ohanian like wrote the book that was like asked for permission not forgiveness right and that was like the whole industry's attitude and that worked like I think that's a great message for a lot of things still to this day but you're in this place where if you want to build Google again or something like Google and you're like I'm just going to tell robot to copy TikTok and then I'll figure it out if it works I don't think I

actually do not think that is going to succeed in the culture as it is today no and I think that is one of the most misplaced things in some corners of Silicon Valley now and it's not true everywhere but it is true a surprising number of places this sense that the folks in the tech industry still are the like counter cultural revolutionaries trying to build a better future and it's just like a you know a bunch of hippies

in San Francisco who are just like trying to make cool stuff together like that is not how those people are perceived and enough of them see themselves that way that that's why they're like oh we're we're just the contrairions and it's why you see this like crazy push away from woke is in all this stuff and like I don't want to get into the political side of it but it comes from the same impulse that it is like we are the

renegades and it's like no you're not do like you were the most establishment of the establishment and yeah you get the leeway that you once got and maybe you never should have the thing is also they were never their renegades like like Silicon Valley was built on like military funds and stuff right like they were never that it was a very conscious PR move and they decided at some point we are too big to need to do that

PR move but actually you can't keep running your playbook and do that because then you just look like all of the kind of like people who are always the villains in period films that's not a great look and we're seeing the Apple like Apple doing the 30% you're just seeing over and over again is like no you guys forgot like you forgot the PR part of this that actually is really important you do have to market this you

market yourselves and if you stop doing that we are going to all eventually be like hey you're being assholes you I can actually draw straight line from what you're saying Alex to Rick Oslo in an interview which we're gonna turn this week at the Wall Street Journal she said hey you had to pull this ad that you ran during the Olympics of someone asking Gemini to write a letter to an athlete for his daughter and it got

pulled because everyone's like why just have your kid do it like sit down with your kid and do this don't ask the robot to it and he was like the market isn't ready for this this is like when we went from

writing to email it's like no it's not it just isn't and I that little attitude like you're just not ready for the thing it worked at a different time it really did yeah it worked for the web it worked for computer mice it did not work I would say for the digital kind of the Apple watch but we're

see iPod it all the stuff it worked for it this is the moment where we're just gonna take the stuff and you're gonna think a slater a little warning sign I would just say that's my light and you're not I'm watch watch that one because it's the source of more conflict than you think agreed

yep all right that's it that's the show we've gone way over we've talked about antitrust too many times do you have any more chairs to sit in how are the chairs there is there's several more chairs okay good if you have ideas for sponsoring the hype type so please let me know my

god I'm gonna get this show sponsored I think we actually have ads right now that you know how it works that's not my side of that's not all right that's the show thank you for listening we got like like hydrogen car special episode on Tuesday David yeah so we we have deeply fun stuff coming

up the next few weeks of the verga cusp but the short version of a long story that I'm very excited for everybody here is will poor took a ride in a hydrogen car that no one was sure was going to go anywhere or keep everyone alive during the whole process and he learned a lot about kind of

the history and future of cars and everything and it was a lot of some story and he made it out so it's it's happy and all right well that's gonna have one Tuesday escape from hydrogen cars pretty much today on the

channel that's it that's a very fast and that's it for the verga cast this week hey we'd love to hear from you give us a call at 866 virgin one one the verga cast is the production of the virgin box media podcast network our show is produced by Andrew marino and Liam James that's it we'll see you next week