Push it. I mean, I know that Finland and Norway exist, you know, like I see them like in the Olympics and stuff like that, they would have a hockey team or something, or like skaters or like you know, downhill skiers. But as places, it never even like entered my mind to go them, like as a place to desire to go, like it just never even entered my thoughts, like someday I wish I would go to Helsinki like that. I never said that sentence or thought it in any way.
And to fly to fly through Iceland, you know, in land in Iceland and be like Iceland, and then to go on to Helsinki, it just was there was something for me amazing about it. But then I was with these other people who were like Ben, I gotta tell you, I got out of prison last year on a life sentence, and I thought I would ever leave a cell, let alone leave the country. And here I am in Helsinki, like here I am traveling the world like that was
that was crazy powerful. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best friends are dot dot dot dot dot dot. In this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. Yep. And and and today we're talking about some deep divides and some inequality for real, real though. Yeah, but but there's hope, right, because we've got to see what it
looks like on the other side of change. Yeah, We're gonna see what prisons look like in other countries, in other countries, not ours. So so you might remember, man that before you and on that trip, I called you up because I'd gotten an email from Impact Justice. All right, hold up. So Impact Justice works on criminal justice reforms. They're in the Bay Area and they were organizing a
trip to go see prisons in Europe. Yep. That's right, like basically saying, you know, we're taking this trip to Norway and we would love you to join the trip
as a writer to help chronicle what we see. Yeah, and uh, And of course I was very flattered by that, but I also was thinking, this isn't a good time for me, and to be frank, I can think of another person who would be better for this I thought about you, not only because you are actually a professional journalist, but you were also working on this book on corrections, and as your best friend, I thought to myself, this would be perfect for Ben to see something outside the
United States. So I called you up and you know, told you about it, and to my delight, you were in Oh yeah, it didn't It didn't take much convincing. The moment you said it, I was ecstatic. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I know you've been waiting for this. Thank you, Thank you for recommending me. I owe you, I owe you. Yeah, And I had to I had to wear like a name tag that said Khalil recommended me. Yeah, so you're you're acting all like my benefactor. But you went on
one of these trips already. You went to Germany and saw prisons there, right, just a couple of years before. Yeah, that's right. Back in in twenty fifteen, I went with the very Institute of Justice. We were there for several days, and we landed in Berlin and we spent some time there, but we also went to one of the northern states, near the Baltic actually, and there we saw, you know,
a more rural place and their prisons. So who was on the trip with you, Because one of the great things about my trip is that there were formerly incarcerated people. There were people who ran prisons and other institutions in the United States. There were politicians who were working on criminal justice reform. There were academics, there were criminologists. There
was such a group to learn from. Yeah, I would say, did ill to all that the exact same cast of characters, no different, just just a lot of people with both lived experience in this system, people who have studied the system and people who run these systems. So you and I both took trips to Western Europe to see prisons, and the point of those trips was to see how they operate there, because essentially they operate so much better than in the United States. The prison population in the
United States since nineteen seventy has exploded. It's gone up over seven hundred percent. The prison population in nineteen seventy was predominantly white. It was about seventy percent white and thirty percent black and brown, and that has reversed. And
so this is this is mass incarceration. This is what our country's prisons look like now, and we're at this opportunity point now in the United States, where like we've maybe reached the peak with mass incarceration and we're going down some and there's an opportunity to push through further, and so maybe there are things to learn from that, and let's let's talk about what we experienced there and
what we might use back home. Yeah, I think that's that's right, and I'd love to do that, especially since we know here in this country that the Biden administration is experiencing a lot of pressure to do a lot of progressive change. And one of the things, of course, as driving that is policing. But before policing, we'd seen
a decade of criminal justice movement and reform. Books like The New gem Crow by Michelle Alexander, published a decade ago, really helped to open up a national conversation and then laid in the Obama administration, we saw the First Step Act being proposed. Later, it was passed during the Trump administration, gotten held up in the center. Let's tell people what is the First Step Act? The First Step Act did
try to accomplish a couple of things. One had tried to shorten sentences by rolling back some of the harsher mandatory minimums, that had been such a key part of driving up the population in the first place. The second thing it did was trying to improve conditions of confinement, and those two things combined ultimately meant that the federal system not only should be smaller, but should be more humane, a little bit more like what we've seen in other countries.
So Trump took credit for it, and it was a first step literally in softening some of the hard edges of the incarceration experiencing something as ludicrous, for example, was now banning the shackling of pregnant women in federal custody. So that was partly informed by people going to Europe and studying what they were doing, and of course you
and I got to see it firsthand. But I think this is a moment to put back in the conversation exactly what we saw, because if we're gonna if we're going to really move the needle, I think as many people as possible need to know what real change looks like. Yeah, and I thought this would be a good place to talk about it. Some of my best friends are on this podcast where some of your best friends on that trip, I wasn't there. Well, I felt like you were there.
You're always with me and we knew a lot of people in common, that's right, And I helped you get on that trip. You've mentioned that maybe seven times so far. I mean, we pull up to this prison in Norway, a maximum security prison called Haulden, and it looks like a fucking prison. It is a prison, I mean, like in the fortress model, you know, giant concrete walls. There's nothing from the outside that says this is not a prison. You know, crazy security, you know, double layers. To get in,
it was like getting into a prison. You know that. You know, my experience is here in the United States and in Illinois too, you know, all kinds of guard towers things like that. So then you get inside and that's where the differences are. It's like it is a prison and it is separation from society. Like they're being punished, and the punishment is that you lose your liberty and
you're inside of this space. And so both Norway and Finland and maybe Germany, you could tell me if it's the same thing that they have this idea of normality, which sort of is you know, foundational to their belief of punishment, that that prison should be as much like the outside world as possible, it should be as normal as possible, that you lose your liberty but not your citizenship, that that prison itself is not an additional punishment, meaning
like the conditions inside are not so fucked up that it's it's beyond the years that you're separated from society, like it's it's actually a punishment in the United States, not just to be separated from society, but to live in this cell, to be exposed to violence, to terrible healthcare, to terrible food, to terrible conditions, and so you know, to make it as normal as possible, so you're not wearing prison clothes. You you you cook and have a kitchen,
you cook for yourselves. We went into these cells, and the people who ran correctional facilities in the United States, they were losing their minds. They couldn't believe this cell,
you know. So one thing, it had a door that locked from the inside, so meaning meaning the person who was being you know, supposedly locked up, he was actually like like any home you could you could just sort of control and it was like it was just like it was like just this little wooden door from from the hardware store, like the cheapest wood door, meaning like you didn't need some hack saw to get out of there. It was like a college dorm room sized. It also
had its own bathroom. None of this was visible from the outside. And just the concept, you know, to use the toilet with privacy. I mean to think of the degradation that you you know, in a prison in the United States, anyone walked can buy uh, can see you on the toilet anytime. You know, sometimes people put up sheets in their cells. But but the idea that you should always be visible from the outside. Um. And they had a window with a beautiful view and like curtains
on the window. Curtains people had their own linen. Yeah house planet, you know, I know you're describing yours, but I saw some of the same stuff. And I mean, the thing that really blew people's minds from the United States is they were seeing in every space things that
could be turned into a weapon. Like their minds. Even as people who had been in prison or who were running facilities, they were like, well that metal frame and those pins and those you know, everything, and I was like they could be turned They were like, it's not even like they could be turned into a weapons like nothing was bolted down. The metal chair itself was a weapon.
Um and so you and then do you you missed the most obvious thing, like the silverware when I went into when I went into one of these same cells in a literally in a maximum security prison, people had their own forks and knives, knives, Like we can't even take plastic knives through tsa on an airplane in the United States, right, But but in Germany or Norway you can have a metal knife and fork to eat with
like a human being. Yeah. Yeah. They had shared kitchen, so you know, you're cooking as a group, and there were butcher knives. They were on sort of like chords, you know, so you can slice in everything. So you didn't just kill them in the kitchen. But now you didn't take the butcher knife back to you. So um so. So when we sat down in the very first prison we sat down in in Finland, one of the first
questions was is there violence in the prison? You know, the people who were imprisoned, you know, are they fighting? Are they attacking guards? And one of the guards there sort of almost laughingly said, you know, there were a couple like fights in the shower, you know, things happened. Um, they were not only rare, they weren't suddenly an excuse to have, you know, sort of extreme separation punishment due humanization.
And I imagine, I mean, if I were listening to this conversation, not having gone to Finland, Norway or Germany, I would be like, yeah, that's bullshit, right. But the truth is that while people can unlock themselves from their cells to socialize, they're still socializing within a limited cellblock, right, so they can't get out of the cell block. They still use solitary confinement. And the difference is not that it doesn't happen. The difference is that they have like
a four week maximum. The point is that the punishment is the least used tool inside of a prison, right because the point of the incarceration experience itself is to is to help people return to a normal life on the outside, and so everything there has to be instead of antisocial, it's got to be pro social. It's got to encourage people, um to find another language, another way of communicating their frustrations that don't lead to violence. You know.
The other sense of normality is that the normalcy is the to prepare you to reduce all the harmful effects of prison. So prison sucks, like it sucks in the United States, and it sucks in Germany and Finland and Norway. It's this is a terrible thing. It's a bad experience to be to be separated from the world, from society, and from your loved ones to a degree, right because and from your loved ones, right. So everything is trying to get you to reduce the harm those harmful effects
so you can come back to society whole. And so the more it's like the outside, the easier that transition back is. So one of the ways that it's also made normal is that, um, you're not you're not put in a prison that's you know, two hundred miles away
from your home. You know, in the United States, we have this model where where people in cities, and you know, largely black and brown men, are charged by district attorneys in cities and then they're sent into the state system and they're usually sent you know we you know, in Chicago, we say downstate. In New York they say upstate, but they mean it means far away. And it's almost like an additional punishment to say, if your family wants to see you we're going to make it as hard as possible.
So not only that, I mean, can we pause on this for a moment, because I think this is an important way to illustrate how different things are. So yes, I saw the same thing in Germany. Proximity was a big part of how people were never that far away
from home. But in the United States, not only is it the case as you describe, where mothers and siblings and the children of the incarcerated not only have to sometimes travel hours to get to their loved ones who are incarcerated, and sometimes those hours trips are expensive, then they have to experience the indignity of being treated like like bad people who want to come see their loved ones, by being subjected to searches, by being talked down to
by all of these incredibly heightened security measures, sent away, which you know, women are often sent away. They can say, arbitrailer, your clothes are too tight, or you're really feeling too much. Yeah,
just spent five hours your underwear is showing us. Yeah yeah, yeah, absolutely So So to your point that that the experience itself is meant to make it feel like everybody's welcome, like even even for us as you know, you could say to a degree your group in my group were special outside visitors, but all of us as skeptics on my trip, including the four state commissioners and two chief prosecutors. I mean there were there were plenty of people on
this trip. They were like, yeah, this is not going to be Like, there was no way they could have coordinated a massive conspiracy of like all these people pretending like this is how things work. We saw people roaming halls randomly with nothing but just you know, like a meditative stare on their face. It was like, and here we were walking amongst them, so like, just to think
about it, like we were not. I think we might have gone through some screening, maybe a metal detector in some instances I can't remember, but it was definitely the case that and I had a camera. I mean, my camera could have been a weapon. Anybody could have come up to me taken something from me. I could have given it to someone. It just wasn't. The whole mood was like, this is not about feeling like everyone is a violent murderer looking to kill somebody. That's so interesting.
Because I went in as the journalist, I was allowed to bring in all my courting equipment. And when we went into Haulden Prison, it's maximum security prison. While the rest of the people on the trip sort of got the rundown of the place from the prison administrator, I was escorted into a room and sat down with two guys who were in prison there, and it was just
so relaxed. One of the guys I spoke with was Frederick, who was this bear of a guy, a huge beard, giant Nordic guy, but also very seemed very calm and peaceful. He was in there for murder, and we ended up having this long conversation about his experience. It's a long story, a long story action, but yeah, it's changed. Something's has changed to the bid and something's has changed to the worst.
In Haulden. Every every person who's in prison there works with the one of the guards, one of the correctional officers, and every correctional officer they're called contact officers, has at least two people that they work with that they're basically like mentor and mentee. It's like um, it's more like social work. They're supposed to guide you and help you with like if you apply for before before you can go on you know, permissions and stuff, and when they're
applied for different things. Yeah, the conduct officers help you with writing, if you need help with that, They help you with if you have troubles with your clothes and all stuff like that. Daily thinks that many struggle within. Here one officer that follows you, so they know about your family situation. And are these contact officers Because I don't remember this part of our experience, I can't say that they don't have them in Germany. But are the
contact officers? Do they present as guards or do they have different uniforms? Man, it is the guards. The contacts. Are the guards there as part of their job is that they're also like, you know, reminded me of when I was a teacher and they were like, Okay, you're a teacher, but you're also going to be an advisor to these eight students. And suddenly, like in the entire school, I'm like, I'm always looking for those eight students and I'm like, I'm responsible for them. I'm matched up with
this guard, Lynn Andreasen, a slight woman, brown hair. She's been working there for nine years, and I get to interview her separately. It's important that we can be open and direct, but I have to be objective about his case and who is in daily life, and I need to tell him what he needs to do. And she starts to tell me she had two years of training.
I know that. I heard that in Norway something like twelve hundred people apply every year for the job and they take about one hundred and seventy five and then they have to go through this rigorous process. She had a degree in social work and environmental therapy and she had worked at the prison for about nine years. I always say to my inmates that we're a team. I want the same as you want, but the question is when you can get it and when you want it
and maybe not. We're not agreeing that. And so specific things that you would say that you need to do is specific classes, their programs you have to take. Yeah, maybe I will tell them, okay, you need to take that class, even if I don't want to force them, and we can't force them, but we need to motivate them. And do you get into sort of the root causes of the problems or people tell you about their childhood and their families. Sometimes they need to, especially when it's
about drug problems. Why do you have a drug problem. This is also some of our education. We learned some tools and methods that we used to provoke feelings and honesty. Wow wow, I mean the line first of all, that was awesome interview and yeah, I just wanted you to hear my interview technique that yeah, yeah, yeah could to me for recommending you. Oh man, that was incredible. So the thing that that is so powerful in that statement by Land is we are a team. Yeah, just so incredible.
And for her to say, like all of us have one or two inmates that we work with and too, as you said, do you get into the background story, like, I mean, that's what individualize therapeutic intervention means, right Like, you are an individual I see you, I hear you. I'm rooting for you. I don't want you to do anything you're not ready to do, but when you're ready,
I'm here to support you. The way you describe it also makes me think, and I hadn't thought about this until now, that the loss of liberty, as you say, is the punishment, and we heard that a lot also, but also that you've hit the bottom when you land there, right Like, I hadn't really thought about that till now, but like we think about people who have addiction problems, and the whole the whole kind of science of addiction recovery is that you really can't help somebody who doesn't
want to be helped. And it's terribly tragic because you know, the whole kind of science of it is that people have to hit quote unquote rock bottom in whatever way that means something to them, and then they turn their lives around. Then they can commit to therapy and you know, and rehabilitation or whatever term gets them out of their drug addiction. And in a way, I'm thinking about this
just now for the first time. That's the analogy, not only because going to prison is that rock bottom moment, but then you get built up from there, like you get actual individualized therapeutic treatment. Half the people we talked to were literally trained psychologists because part of the people like the CEOs, the guards, the correctional officers, the people who work well, they weren't actually CEO, but they were part of the staff. They were the prison staff. Um
they you know, they weren't the guards. They were the social workers and psychologists who spent time literally working up individual treatment plans for every single person. Yeah, and so this so this think about like the investment in training man hours, woman hours like and then the notion that you can't treat people like they're some kind of widget on an assembly line of punishment, that actually everybody has a particular story to tell about how they ended up
quote unquote at rock bottom. Yeah, and that's what I loved. I love about how you described because it helped me to think about it as Yes, of course you go to rehab. The point of rehab is not to make you feel like shit for all the terrible things you did while you were high. Right. The point is, like, we need to help you see the beauty inside of you. We need to help you get reconnected to who you are in relation to these people who love you and
want you to do better. So, from my experience, so the beauty you can see inside, teach them giddy easy, Let the diligence last. I mean, I mean for me, Khalil. You know, I am working on these ideas daily. So I'm working on this book and also a podcast about the parole system in the United States and about criminal justice reform and about people who are incarcerated. You know, the United States has a quarter of all the incarcerated people in the world. That's just nuts, that just doesn't
make any sense. And so how did we get here? And also like, are there is there anything you know? And what we saw that we could actually use in the United States to get out of the condition that we're in, the condition of mass incarceration. Something happened to me kind of more like on my way home from Germany. But but it helped me to really understand for the first time how much America's foundation and race and racism
has so fundamentally shaped all aspects of our society. And so I want to yeah, so I I you know, So I want to tell you this story about some things I saw and then that I experienced on my way home. I never told you it kind of surprising because it was really kind of it was shocking to me personally. I felt it very personal. And it helps to explain part of the answer to this question about why the United States is so different relative to these
European nations. The whole point of the trip for us was to learn how do things work in Germany when it comes to prisons as compared to the United States. Like that's why we went there, and what we learned is that the laws they governed punishment were directly written to account for the Holocaust, that they were written to make sure that prisons themselves would never again be an instrument of genocide or any kind of state sponsored racist project.
So this wasn't just youth saying I think of Germany, I think of the Holocaust, I'm going to see prisons. So I'm equating the two. The two are linked there absolutely, and the public culture of Germany acknowledges certainly since the nineteen seventies and eighties, there was a generation where this
wasn't the case. But the public culture of Germany, including a memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in the middle of Berlin, the capital of the nation, is part of how Germans have taken this awful history and try to make themselves a better nation. I mean this powerful moment when on our first day we visit the Holocaust Memorial, which is really called the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, and it's this powerful memorials right in the
middle of Berlin. It is the physical landscape is represented by these block of granite that stand in various heights from a couple of feet to eight feet and you get lost in a maze. And this is a maze of murder. Early and out of nowhere, I look up, literally and I see a toddler running through Because what toddler wouldn't be captivated like being in a human maze, Because from that small child's perspective, that's all it was.
But it struck me that starting at the age of incomprehension, for the smallest child in Berlin, there is this inescapable relationship to that history, and that that lesson carries not just from the boldness which with Germans have had to face over time. They didn't get this right right away, but they had to face what they did and then
teach it to their children. But still I keep thinking myself, like here in this country, they've done the work, They've tried to uproot as best they can, the psychology that makes it possible to destroy other people in the name of politics or progress or efficiency of something of domination.
And yet when I'm on my ride home, I literally hear the conductor call out Berlin, and I realize I'm leaving this country, Like I'm leaving this country and I have to go back to my own country, and I have to think about what is possible in America, given the deep rooted nature of racism as punishment, that this is a system built by design. And then man, so I can't even believe this happened, because even telling you this for the first time, it's like, it's like it's unbelievable.
So I go home. I happen to fly home with three other people from the trip, all white folks. We make the flight home nine hours we land, We're all exhausted.
It's first thing in the morning. We're approaching customs and I get flagged, and you know, I had I was already traumatized by TSA because when nine to eleven happened and they put all of rules in place, I was on the no fly list for a long time because of your name, because because some black kid from the South Side of Chicago whose family can't even trace his roots back to Africa because we've always been here since slavery times is now somehow not an American and suspect.
So and I don't fly internationally that often anyway. You know, I come back and I'm annoyed, but I want to get home. So I say goodbye to my friends. TSA pulls me in for interviewing and I get called to talk to the officer and he says, why were you in Germany? And I say, visiting prisons? Why were you visiting prisons in Germany? Because as the Germans don't destroy people like just like in the United States. Well, that's obvious, they don't have black people. Come on, no, this is
what this guy said to you. This is what this guy said to me, And that's it, right, Like, that's
that is the question in front of us. I don't even have the exact words to describe what it felt like coming off of that trip, going in there with those questions, seeing what I saw, trying to map and understanding of the Holocaust onto the way they treat people, even foreigners, even people of color there, even people who who have no trace of German ancestry get treated better than black people whose histories go back to sixteen nineteen in America. And yet I'm not sure he was wrong. No,
That's that's what's fucked up. Did he say it with malice? Was he was? He just was he? No? No, he didn't, it was it was It was just so obvious and if you think about the obviousness of it. That is the thing that explains what has happened in this country. Yeah, that is the thing that explains why we have mass incarceration. It is the thing that explains why, even in this moment of the possibility for significant change, because a lot of people agree things need to change, I'm not sure
how far down the road we're going to get. And it's not black people's fault that we got here in the first place, and it's not going to ultimately be black people that change the system, because white people are going to have to decide that they want to reckon with what they've done and they want to change because the the other irony that I can aunt let go
is that it was the Americans. It was white Americans who enshrined in the post war German constitution the protections and the sanctity of life that ultimately you and I saw with our own eyes, and we saw the impact of that. We are the ones who led denazification efforts. There as a kind of post war occupying force and
presence in Berlin and in Munich. And I've been to the museum that is a museum dedicated to understanding the History of the Nazi Party, where they tell the story of what then happened about American teachers coming to Germany to teach the classics of Western history, to teach the authors that helped to shape America's liberal democracy, and yet we can't teach ourselves what we did to black people in this country. Yeah, and that that, to me is the hardest lesson to take away from what I saw
in Germany. That's just so fucked up, man. Uh, you went to you literally went to study prisons in another country, and you come back and you're criminalized. It's it's uh, it would be ironic if it wasn't just so painful and real. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Uh wish you were there, though I would have been passed along, you know, I wouldn't have been I wouldn't
have been flagged. I mean that's just the truth. Like you were flagged, but you would have put your arms around me and been like you can't you can't go by himself. I have to go with them. There's this
sort of you know, disease of American exceptionalism. Uh so that we think where and this is almost what the Germans and the Finnish and the Norwegians were kind of poking fun at you know, because not only do they feel superior, they have the moral high ground, but they also know that that Americans believe somehow that they're the best despite being the worst at many things are really bad at you know, not only prisons, but at child
mortality and poverty and an acqualimed democracy, these healthcare, I mean, all these things. And so you know that, you know, I don't, I don't. I don't use that instead of racism, because it's it's in the tour are embedded. The two
are interconnected. That that you could think this that we are exceptional, we are the greatest at the same time times that all these things exist is both denying that system, or denying racial oppression and also normalizing it and embracing it a certain way, whether it's openly or or you know, de facto. You know that is how do you how
do you get past that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I think I think for exactly that reason, we are in a moment of a new administration and by an administration and a lot of promises for racial equity and perhaps the greatest systemic form of racism of the past forty years has been the criminal justice system and the crisis of mass incarceration in all of the racial disparities of black and brown people bearing the burden of this punishment machine on purpose, a system built by design to do what
it's been doing. And for me, that's why the twenty fifteen trip I took to Germany has really been life altering professionally and why it was so important for me knowing you were working on your book correction, uh, that if I had a chance to get you there to see for yourself that I could, you know, I could help make that happen, and I'm glad I did. Yeah, Man, this was a lot. You know, it's a lot, a lot of a lot of really needy, heavy stuff to
think about. And you know, we we've been friends for a long time, so it's been incredible to experience so much from like being dumb and stupid and teenagers to now literally traveling the world trying to figure out how to make a contribution to our own country. Yes, sometimes you have to uh to go a far away to to understand and the things close up. Yeah, it's kind of like when you went to the college and got some white buddies and left me behind. Na, That's not
what happened. No, keep I'm teasing you. You had some black buddies too, all right. So all right, so you know we gotta keep at it, right yea, keep on at time. Keep love you all right, Love you, Jim Mama, your baby Daddy's coming. Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, Debron Muhammad, and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff Vincent and edited
by Karen Kurge. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez. Our associate editor is Keishell Williams, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Leta Molad and Mia La Belle. Special thanks to Impact Justice and the Via Institute of Justice, which sponsored our separate trips to prisons overseas. We couldn't have done this show without the work of these amazing organizations. At Pushkin Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Nigliori, John Schnars,
and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan AVERYR. Young from his amazing album Tubman. You will definitely want to check out more of his music at his website, averyar Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter at Pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. If you love this show and others from Pushkin industry, consider becoming a Pushnick. Pushnick is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four dollars in ninety nine cents a month. Look for Pushnick exclusively on Apple podcast subscriptions. Let's do it, Let's go Activate, Powers Activate