Crime, Fear and Alternatives to Policing

move here. Like if it's come to that, like Chicago needs another handgun on the street, right, So if it comes to that, then it's time for you to come be with us. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best friends are this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. In today's episode, we talk about violence and its personal.

We're talking about our hometown, We're talking about our neighborhood. We're talking about the most spectacular instances of gun violence. We're worried, We're worried about overcorrecting or going back to business as usual, that somehow policing is going to solve this all on its own and ultimately we have solutions that will actually fix these problems and has very little

to do actually with law enforcement. So hey man, we haven't really talked about this, but uh, I mean Hyde Park, our home neighborhood has experienced unprecedented islands collapsing in one day. How are you doing? What's going on now? What's the response? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I mean there was a day where there was a shooting with automatic gunfire and hard report. There was a murder of a University of Chicago student and a murderer, a stabbing of a man in a domestic situation.

I don't even know much more about it, and it's really scary. I mean people are scared. There's you know, the loss of life and and then thinking about you know, for for me, and I think for you too, like how do you feel safe? But also guy, yeah, but also the fear that there's going to be some response that is going to be like more policing, and it's going to cause it's going to cause other problems. Like I'm scared of that right. Yeah, well, I can tell you from a mom who've gotten a lot of report

song she's watching I see it. I see her on social media every day talking about Yeah. I mean, she and I have basically been having an ongoing conversation about it because she's getting news stories. She's talking to people who live in Chicago, live in your neighborhood. And I'm really concerned not only about, you know, how how people experience what's happened, but also what comes now. You know, people in a moment like this decide to pack up

and leave, like it's an existential moment. You know, people are like, I've had enough and this is what this is what destroys communities. So I mean, I tell you that I have neighbors who were like, is this the breaking point? Is it? Should we leave? And I hate hearing that. I hate it. I mean, and I know I know that that people. You know that we have to have really honest discussions about crime and safety. But you know, I feel committed to this city, into this neighborhood,

and so there's something so destructive for me. It's also I think what I'm most interested in talking to you about today is exactly how this moment opens up possibilities that we haven't really done before and or in thinking about the summer of George Floyd and everything that came and the you know, the possibilities of really understanding the relationship of of social justice and policing, you know, yeah, like, yeah, this is the moment, This is the moment to test

our medal, right, to see because they were willing to do, they're responses to crime, and in a moment like this, they're a most predictable more policing. But we want to talk about, you know, what are other responses, what are other responses that are better. So let's let's go to Hyde Park. Let's look exactly at what happened there, and let's look at the responses. Yeah, so I called Sophia King, who is my local alderman. So Sophia, I'm recording, Oh

are you? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, she's good. She's good people. And I just saw her when I was a couple weeks are her. I saw her and I wanted to hear what happened from her perspective. There were at least I think twenty seven shell casings found, which you know, again just underscores the brazen miss of it. We're pulling into onto Harper right now, coming from coming from Kenwood, and this is our route essentially every day for lunch, you know, Kenwood kids, right, I mean and until at noon.

You know, it's it's a busy um street and and it's right in the middle of the day in downtown Hyde Park. Um And yeah, it could have been a mass murder. And also get a better sense of what the responses have been because she's been in hundreds of meetings since then with concerned you know whatever. The stakeholders as we call them, right, people are calling for more policing. You know. My response is is that this is also an opportunity, tunity to have alternative policing, like the neighbors,

the store owners, the University of Chicago. Because you probably have heard Um the Kilwin's owner. You know, it was a traumatic experience for her and her employees, who you know, Um luckily weren't in the windows that were shot out, but you know, in that regard, it was traumatic and people were hurt. Her business is still closed. They're scared, and they want to know, they want to know what to do about this crime, and they want to know what she's going to do, because you know, a crime occurs,

and then what is the proper response? I mean, that's what where you and I are always talking about this, right, you know, I just want to make sure that there's the appropriate response, and think in speaking of you know,

appropriate policing, there are other avenues. And she's a neighbor too, and I know that she's experiencing this in a in a real way that you know, I'm friends with her and I've known her for years, but I know that she's also on the block driving around, has some of the same concerns that Danielle, my wife has, and also that I have. You do you feel less less safe? Are you taking more precautions? I do? I do feel

less safe. I gosh, I come out of my my parking, I'm out of my garage, and I'm turning my head and going You've had friends on your block? Yes, friend, I've got my good friends who were carjacked and and and it's very traumatic for them. It's traumatic for me to know that that happened, to know how they feel, and and and it's hard to internalize it. You and I are constantly talking about about over policing and also about responses to crime and about the criminal justice system.

And so here we are in our neighborhood where I live and where you grew up and where your mom just left, and there's this crime that occurs, and how do you respond to it in the short term and the long term? What do you do to make people feel more safe? And then you know, not make things worse at the same time. Yeah, I mean, so here we are right where we are? What are we a year and a half? We're a year and a half.

What are we I thought I thought you were going to say, we are two leading experts on criminal justice system. We're a year and a half since the massive protests following the murders of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor buy police officers and and and widespread calls for defund the police. And and you know, then when crime occurs, when occurs in Chicago, when hers all over the country, people return to this sense of like, well, shit, we must need

more policing. You know, forget the fund. We need actually more policing because that's what's going to keep us safe. That there is still this fallback to the kind of status quo sensibility of public safety. Yeah. Yeah, I mean

I would put it a little differently. I would say that while while it's certainly true we've seen news reports of refund almost every city that promised some kind of cut has put a lot of that money back in cities all over the country, I would say that part of what I'm sensing from the conversations that are happening on social media about what's happening in Chicago and even sort of watching the New York City mayoral race here, is that there's this sense that the uptick in violence

requires an immediate response, like somehow the protests unleashed a sense of entitlement to the streets that Lala has just sort of taken advantage. My mom even used the word like this is these are people who are doing things out of opportunity, and that somehow, like a tourniquet, there needs to be some immediate response to stop the bleeding and then we could get back to these bigger questions.

And I think, and I think that's the kind of the tension that's certainly the tension I feel in my own household talking about this, but it's it's also the tension I think I feel when I'm listening to people, you know, who have a more complicated response to this than just the old law and order stuff from back in the day. And I'm wondering what does Sophia say about how does she balance this tension and awareness of like the consequences of kind of going back to a

much more vigorous police presence. Yeah, I mean Sophia is complicated. She's the head of the Progressive Caucus and the City Council. She does ask for things like alternative forms of policing. She asked for funding for housing in schools, but she also wants it's on the ground. She wants more police officers. Sophia, in a way, is going to be held accountable for this. Right,

She's directly responsible if people feel unsafe. Someone's going to run against her and say I'm the safety candidate, right, and so she has to respond to this. I think we should move towards those ideals, but keep some real boots on the ground. That's that's the reality. So, like I said, I think we need more presents, um and police as part of that. I also think, you know, positive loidering and having a bustling and hustling business as

a part of it. But you're right, um, you know, these are kinds of opportunity where there there's not much, you know, somebody could do. I mean, one of the one of the reasons I think we decided to have a bigger conversation about it happening here in Hyde Park is that, like I'm experiencing that need for an immediate response. This is the community where where we live, you know,

So this is real for my family. So Lysia, my daughter, who is sixteen, still walks to and from school and now that it's you know, now that it's winter, it's dark when she comes back, and every day after school she likes to stop by the Medici this this U restaurant and get you know, like a bad dat our favorite, our favorite pizza place. Yeah. But but she her her friends have been told that they're not allowed to go

out with her. Not because she's a bad influence. So maybe that is the reason, I don't know, but because the parents are worried about crime and they can't be out when it's after school or walk around. Okay, so this, this is a this is a totally new thing. In response to the shootings that happen in High Park, most recently, this is, this is right now, right now happening. I mean she has one friend who this is you know, I heard the second hand from a sixteen year old,

so take a taken like that. But who she was told she can't sit in the front of their of their home that's facing the street because they're worried about straight gunfire. I mean that's real, right in every possible way, and people do get killed randomly, and oftentimes kids. But like this is this is our neighborhood. Like it's a very middle class, upper income community, and so the thought that that's the advice now in Hyde Park is really wild.

And you know, I have talks with her about not being the low hanging fruit, about now walking with her phone out and looking at her phone, that there have been a lot of robberies of people just pulling up and jumping people and taking their phones and often with guns, you know, saying give me what you have. And so I tell her not to be that person who is with her head down and a phone and looks like an easy target. Yeah. I went to a meeting of

the Chamber of Commerce. I did this on zoom, and all the store owners from the neighborhood were like they wanted to know what to do. And it wasn't like they were all demanding more police, but they were like, what do we do to feel safe? You know? Should we have cameras, Should we have drones, should we like you know it, should there be secure guards? Like they

wanted something. Yeah, And I and I mean, just to add to that, I also read an open letter written by something like three hundred faculty members at the University of Chicago in response to the killing of a Chinese national student. So the student who was robbed, the student was Chinese national student who was here in the neighborhood. And he's he's the third University of Chicago student killed this year, and the second one who is an international student.

Yeah yeah, And in that letter, and a couple of things jumped out, I mean to this point about how do you respond. I mean, there was like literally a call for surveillance cameras and this is not an exaggeration on every intersection in Hyde Park. And while they didn't quite say cops on every corner, they did say security

guards on every corner. And you know, I mean, I could I can certainly understand it because the stakes of what that very significant response might mean in terms of delivering public safety cut against the other problems which gave rise to police reform debates, which is what happens when you over police a community and everyone's treated like a suspect,

especially if they happen to be black and brown. Like this is where I think my mom and those faculty members at the UFC are probably not that far apart, right, because there is a sense like you have to do something in the moment, you have to do something now to lock it down. I'm really interested, maybe not so much in alternative policing, but I want to talk about alternatives to police. I think. So let's let's let's talk about safety and justice and what that looks like without policing. Yes,

safety and justice without policing. Well, put, that's right, because people want those things, but they're having a hard time

trying to get there without police playing a big role. Yo, so Khalil in the aftermath of the shooting in Hyde Park, the murder in Hyde Park, I guess you know, the robbery and killing and another stabbing murder in Hyde Park all in one day, and the general uptick and crime that's been going on everywhere, right, Yeah, one I think that's been real clear to me is just like people need some kind of response to it, and they need a sense of safety, and that could come in all

sorts of forms. There's that demand for a sense of accountability or writing the moral balance. And here here in Hyde Park, after those crimes, what was offered was more policing. Yeah, a lot a lot more cops. Right. I mean my mom the other night over dinner, she looked at me

and she was like, you know, this is terrible. You know, she mentioned Donald Trump's call for the National Guard a few years ago and said something to the effect of, like, you know, maybe Donald Trump was right about that, right for the wrong reasons, because he really didn't care about Chicago. But maybe since the police are failing, the national Guard can do better. Yeah, And she said it in a way that she's like, and I know you don't agree,

but she was also daring me to have a better response. Yeah. I think I might have told you this. I'm not sure, but you know, my brother Jake, who runs a music venue in the neighborhood just just a block from where

that shooting happened, Romatory. The Friday after the shooting, he was having a show there, a concert that happened to be a rap act, you know, and the police essentially showed up and we're like, na, na, if you have this show and and and anything happens anywhere in the neighborhood at any time afterward, we're gonna hold you accountable. And so he had to postpone the show. Is that even lawful? For real? Though? I mean, I mean this in asking that question is just a little tip of

the spear of where the slippery slope ends up. So I mean just to kind of put a put a pen on this point. So you know, this is in many ways hot spot policing. As the entire neighborhood of Hyde Park, this is basically the idea that you have a hot spot right an area where we've identified a

lot of crime happening in a concentrated space. And in the tradition of hot spot policing that's been going on for about twenty five years now, this community, our community, which hasn't really experienced this level of intensified, spectacular violence now is saying we want all these things that we've tried in what's called high crime areas that are often low income can munities, often with black and brown. So

that's what's been presented here. Let's you and I talk about some other alternatives to policing, not alternative policing, but alternatives two policing. Right, we know to your point, like, we know that the menu of options is actually much greater than what we're even hearing in our own home community. All right, so let's let's let's run through it. Let's run through the menu. That's right. Let's call these the

shovel ready immediate responses, okay, ding ding ding, already immediate responses. No, because when you like that, when you think about opportunity out of crisis, um, you think about like what's on the shelf that we can we can mobilize at this moment, and maybe we're hardwired as a long term fix us. Okay, go for it. Violence interruption, Yes, yes, I think. I think in fact, if we were playing a version of a family feud, that would be the number one answer.

Why is at the case Because the very concept of putting people who already live in a community in charge of conflict mediation, who have trustworthy relationships with members of the community, who can go to them and say, hey, I've got a problem with so and so, and if someone doesn't help me fix it, you know, there's gonna be there's gonna be drama, there's gonna be violence, and we need to figure out a way to stop this

before it happens. And this is a twenty year old, proven approach to violence mediation, and it's it's working in Chicago, it's working in Baltimore, it's working in New York City. I've seen it up close with my own eyes, and it's been discussed in some ways nationally. Not enough, but yeah, I mean, so we have to invest hugely in community violence interruption. It's proven, it's empirically strong and it works. Okay,

So second on the menu. So the fact is that about probably more than ninety percent of what police respond

to our non violent offenses. And so that's right, and sometimes the numbers are as low as five percent, I mean, in terms of what they actually record calls for service, Right, that's the data we have for when police actually are responding to somewhat member of the public saying I need help, About five percent or less of those often are for something that we call So there's another solution, which is that for first responders to mental health crises, to homelessness cases,

to many drug cases, to even traffic stops. You could send people who are experts in those and who are not armed police officers. You can have a different set of first responders. That's right. This is just about people who need help, and in a society, particularly in communities that are star for resources, it just isn't a whole

lot of infrastructure. If if you need help, if you've got somebody in distress, if you need I mean, I know, in our own suburban community, police officers literally, I mean like the old classic case of my cat crawled up into a tree, could you help get my cat out

of the tree. I know this for a fact because we've I've been at meetings where people have talked about how ridiculous it is that the police have to do this kind of But you know when people talk about the fund, if there's a limited pool of money, that more of that money would go to these alternatives, these other responders, rather than to arm police officers to take on these cases, which they have not been trained in

many cases to do almost in all cases. They're not mental health experts, they're not social service workers, those kinds of things that's right, and so this is something that's also been been done in cities and states across the country. Yes. A third thing on the menu is something that actually some of my neighbors brought up here in response to

the recent spate of crime, and that's having more positive loitering. So, you know, one of my neighbors talked about having ambassadors going out on the street and definitely not a community watch and definitely not something to call the police on people, but just to be present on corners and to meet people and to build community. This is something that also happens in Englewood, the neighborhood where we discussed in the

episode with Tanika Johnson fighting and equities throughout. Yes, yeah, that that and you know there were a group of mothers that hang out on corners on Fridays and Saturday nights to make sure that that violence doesn't happen. This is a way to build community and to strengthen the bonds in different neighborhoods. Yeah, yeah, so, I mean it's a the sociologists call this collective efficacy and uh, and

some of my own colleagues have written a lot about this. Basically, communities that have thriving nonprofit organizations that are doing art activities, that are doing youth based activities where there's just a lot of rich social engagement, and that it often is taking place in public spaces. Often is not just a deterrent to crimes of opportunity, but also is a sign

of community well being and this kind of a virtuous cycle. So, you know, we presented these ideas, but none of them are really going to get us to like, you know, deeper structural changes. They're not going to get us there in terms of public safety. Right, you know, people have been out of work, they've been out of school, they've

they've seen the unequal responses to the pandemic. And this is on you know, the tail end of police violence and for closure crisis and closed schools and closed hospitals and closed mental health facilities. And you know, this idea that you you treat the effect of all those causes, which is violence, the uptick and violence that we're seeing in Chicago and everywhere, and and don't look at any

of the causes seems crazy. Let's lean into this idea, like, let's imagine government pushing and doing all the things we want. Let's imagine the structural changes. You know, it sounds like build back better, right, and buildback better a little bit tongue in cheek, but I mean honestly, when we think about what an infra infrastructure would mean, that would be bottom up, would start with communities most in need of resources, of jobs, of affordable housing, of education, of education, of

treating trauma, of a clean, green economy. But all those things those lead to public safety. Correct, That's how you fight crime. That way to fight crime is to invest in housing, to invest in education, to invest in health, to invest in trauma reduction, universal healthcare. Right. That is on the ticket of long term solutions to helping people

not need the police. Right. So what this means practically speaking is these are actually the things that we ought to do in this moment in High Park, in Englewood in other places when we want to answer the question what should we do to minimize the chance that people will use guns to settle differences, will act out in public by spraying up whole communities, and we'll feel the frustrations of their societies by taking them out on their loved ones when they don't have social service or mental

health professionals to talk to first, these other responses, I think we've got to lean into that, right, We got to say here is your answer, right, and and we need a lot more and we need a lot more right And Yeah, all of those, like you said, are critical and they're incredibly useful. They're not only useful, they work right the wor they stopped the harm before it happens, at the point of the breakdown, right when something'll go down.

So so if I'm you know, I'm worried about crime in my neighborhood and i want something immediate, and I'm scared right now. And you know, two jokers on this podcast say, well, you need big structural changes. You know, that sounds almost like pie in the sky stuff. It

sounds like it'll never happen. It sounds impossible. And just you know, hearing you talk and thinking about this made me think about the work that you do as a historian, and that these kinds of investments are not only possible, but it's proven that they lead to public safety, that they lead to crime reduction. Yeah. Absolutely absolutely, I mean, thank you, thank you for setting me up to talk

about the condemnation of blackness. But you know, the short version of this is at a time an American short version, short version. Yeah, when white people were killing each other on the streets of Chicago. When are we talking about here, we're talking about We're talking about the early twentieth century, the turn of the twentieth century. With huge economic inequalities. White immigrants were struggling. They were subject to all kinds

of racist attacks and stigma attached to them. Eventually, this got so bad that that prohibition was passed, you know, like ding ding ding, massive effort to lock up everybody having anything to do with alcohol distributes, like a precursor to War on drugs, right, massive failure. It criminalized the massive numbers of low income, working class white people that

were committing a lot of crime. To be sure, there was a lot of violence in those communities, but the social response, what was the response was the social response was massive investments in those communities that led from the progressive era to the New Deal. They got they got housing, they got economic security through through various rights as workers, we got unemployment insurance, we got social security, they got

access to the American dream with homes. We got police reform. Um. I mean, we could run down the list of all the things that most people know about as kind of the new Deal, the same stuff that is inspiring build back better today and all kinds of infrastructure. But what people don't realize is a lot of that was absolutely a direct response to crime in white working class as and immigrant communities, and it was a massive crime solution response.

So it worked, and it worked. So thank you for that, professor. You're welcome. H Let's talk more about today how we get structural change, Like, how can we possibly get this structural change that's going to lead to reduction and crime? And one of the ways we do it is through protest, right, That's right, It is a key. I mean, man, you are you are on fire today, that's right? I know, yeah,

of course right. No, No massive change in society happens without people in the streets demanding demand, demanding people organize people to agree upon what it is that they want to see change. When have we seen this before? Yeah? Yeah, I mean this gets us back to the summer of twenty twenty and all the protests, and you know, after George Floyd is killed by police, Brianna Taylor was killed

by police, Jacob Blake is killed by police. Yeah, like massive organizing to change society for the better, and then we get like crazy police cracked down and we get white self deputized men like Kyle Rittenhouse. I mean, like like literally as the response to the possibility of actually changing these things in a in a big structural way. Yeah. Yeah, And you know, we were recording earlier, and while we were recording, we got news of the verdict in his case,

in Kyle Riddenhouse's case, that he was acquitted of all charges. Yeah. It was disturbing because we were in the middle of talking about all of these issues and yeah, and we were just sort of completely dumbfounded by it and sort of overwhelmed. Yeah, I mean, it is still hard to fathom that when Kyle Riddenhouse can be acquitted for arming himself to be willing to shoot protesters who are protesting or racial justice and an into police brutality, that he

doesn't symbolize a society at large. It privileges police power over protests. And so to me, part of the challenge for us at this moment and taking stock of our own community, taking stock of where we are, is that a lot of good things are happening in spite of all of this. Yeah, it also prioritizes policing over healthcare and education and housing and all sorts of things that also,

as we know, reduce crime. Yeah, or even back to public health interventions, like all these other menu of choices keep falling prey to the immediate need to say we need policing, and yet in so many ways, as we've just talked about, it's not going to get us there, and in fact it's a source of the problem. Yeah, it's easy to feel a lot of despair. I mean, it's sort of in the you know, hearing the Kyle Rittenhouse verdict. Overwhelmed by crime. I've got neighbors who are

talking about leaving Chicago. Yeah. Yeah, you sent me that Chicago Tribune report about like hundreds of thousand, two hundred and something thousand by people, like two hundred fifty thousand in the last twenty years, two hundred and sixty thousand plus one, including two hundred and sixty thousand and one. You know, it sucks, Yeah, you know, And and it's hard to think about these these big structural changes. You know, it's hard to you know, when when the crisis feels

right now. But I gotta say that there is a sign of progress from maybe from those protests from twenty twenty. It doesn't happen all at once, it happens over time, right, Yeah, and maybe may be you and I have to be more patient with people as funds. Yeah, we have to.

We have to keep you. But I mean, I mean, like, yeah, but I right, but like making the case requires some degree of patients for people who have this existential sense of crisis, like I can't send my kid to school right now, um, like Lysia's friends, like you know, you have to come home immediately. That there is that immediacy. And I think I think what we what we want to say in response, what we've said just now is that you can do both. And I mean, and that's

like you need to do. You need to focus on the things we can do, which are these public health violence interruption responses, redirecting actual public resources towards the actual service providers social workers who can take care of most of what people need and make long term investments in actually changing the conditions that produce and breed violence in the Yeah, and you know, you know what you're saying is I think that listen, we can't wait for some

pie in the sky utopia we can't wait for like everything to be solved in order to like delve into this important structural work, these big changes that has to happen right now, Like we're not going to get to some magical time when there's no violent crime. Yeah. Well, I would say it actually even differently, I would say, one, it's not utopic to see what most communities look like where murders happen, you know, every decade or so or

once a year, Right, That's not an abstraction. That's very real in tons of communities across this Country's it describes mostly the community I live in, but everything else that also describes this community is a community with tremendous economic resources, tremendous economic security, a community where where people have most of what we're talking about your suburb, New Jersey. Yeah, I'm talking about my suburb. But it's just it's just one of many and that, and they're not all suburbs.

Sometimes there are even neighborhoods inside of cities like your own, like like part parts of parts of Chicago. Yeah. So, so I think we have, you know, we have to work to demystify this notion that there is a way to invest in people and not policing that we want to invest in the actual people because we know we have all the evidence. We need to know that we're not doing a very good job of it, and we need to We need to do it now. We need

to do it now. We need to stay right and as long as and as long as we think that this moment is unique, like no, no, no, Khalil and Ben, this is this is such a crazy moment of bullet flying everywhere that we just need There's always going to be there's always there's les people that's right, you know it. There's there's always going to be the worst case scenario that says on. Fortunately, you know, we just have to do these things and police are going to be the

people who protect us. All right, my man, all right, love you man too. Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalildbron Mohammed, and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff Vincent and edited by Karen Shakerji. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez. Our associate editor is Keishell Williams. Our associate producer is Lucy Sullivan and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Leta

Molad and Mia La Belle. Special thanks to Sophia King My Alderman, to Dereka Purnell, the author of Becoming Abolitionist, Police Protest and the Pursuit of Freedom, and to my state Senator Robert Peters, who also spoke to us for this episode. At Pushkin Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Nigliori, John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by Fellow Chicago and AVERYR. Young from his amazing

album Tubman. You will definitely want to check out more of his music at his website averyar Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. If you love some of my best friends are in any of the other shows from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing

to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. If you like this show, please give it a five star review, and please tell some of your best friends about it, like a lot of your best friends, all of your best friends, all of your best friends. Now, yeah, I mean from as far as a lot of research goes. And this is my Balllywick

at a policy school. That's right, balllywick, new word of the day, man, That's how people talk at Harvard. Is that? Excuse me, sir? This is my Balllywick today. You know. No, no, that's my Balllywick. So all right, all right, we got it, we got it, we got it. M