Hi, This is Milan Vervier and this is Kim Azarelli. We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose. And you're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio. Carolin Tastad is the Group President North America for PNG, and she also serves as the Executive Sponsor of Gender
Equality for PNG Worldwide. Under her leadership, PNG has made significant strides in advancing equality in the workplace and in the world. Caroline sat down with Milan during the World Economic Forum in Davos to discuss the concrete steps companies can take to close the income gap between men and women, a simple technique anyone can use to disrupt bias, and her belief that accelerating progress on gender equality is truly possible. Listen to their conversation and stick around after for my
top takeaways. We'll be back after this break. Caroline, we're here in Davos and we know that the World Economic Form puts out an annual gender gap report. The latest report estimates a staggering two hundred and fifty seven years that it will take to close the gap between men
and women on economic participation. Does this surprise you, Well, unfortunately, it's not really a surprise because, as you and I have talked many times, one of the things that we still encounter is these false narrow atives about women, and they continue to be visible in our society, in our workplace, uh and frankly even here at Davos, and it really just illustrates how people still believe that women may lack ambition, or they lack confidence, that they have a responsibility to
carry more of the load at home, or that they're opting out of big rules. And the truth is, as you and I know, men and women are different and we act differently because we've been socialized differently, we have different experiences. You know, men stereotypically amplify their capability and again I want to say this is a stereotype. It's not true of all men, of course, and women stereotypically
understate their capability. That's all okay to understand. But when we shortcut that and we label it as men have confidence and women don't have confidence, that's when we take a misstep, and that's when we do damage for women. That's why we're going backwards. These false narratives about women cause us to focus on fick seeing the women versus fixing the systems, the norms that perpetuate that global gender gap. Well, I think you're absolutely right, But what can we do
about these false narratives. Well, I think, as we've said, it's time to acknowledge that gender inequality has to be fixed, but the women don't need to be So that mindset shift changes everything, and it really allows us to set a higher standard, to see a bigger picture and to recognize that there's a lot of things that have to change in our organizations, in our workplace, in our society
in order for the world to see equal. So there's been so much awareness building in recent years about these issues, particularly in the private sector, and yet we have this sense, and we also have the evidence space case that we aren't moving forward faster. Why are we still seemingly stuck? Well, I think at the heart of it biases everywhere, and what we have to do is learn to enter up that bias. And most corporate leaders, most decision makers are
recognizing that bias exists. We have to learn to interrupt the bias, and there are ways to do it. Lymp can give you an example from PNG. I was working with one of our marketing directors and he was excited to show me a new ad campaign for one of our shampoo brands. And he said, listen to this, I'm so excited. And he started reading the concept board and what the intention was, and at one point he came to a line where he said, because when she looks good,
she can be her best. And I said, okay, hang on a minute. What I want you to do is just go back and read that again with the same enthusiasm, but substitute he for she. He said, okay, and he went back and he started going through it, and he read the board and then he said because when he looks good, and then he started laughing and he said,
that's that just sounds ridiculous. And I said, exactly, So, if it really sound ridiculous when you say it for he, it's also sounding ridiculous when you say it for she. And so we call that flip the pronouns. And this notion of flipping the pronouns helps you see where there's bias.
It's the same thing when we talk about the opportunity for gender equality versus the risk of homogeneity anytime we can flip the bias, it really makes such a difference, and so I think that's something that all companies have to learn, not only to recognize and acknowledge that bias exists within their workplace, but really learn how to interrupt that bias. So interesting and and really right on. So many companies are going through a bias training process, but
it only goes so far. What else do we need to do to address bias when it comes to workplace policies? Because P and G has been in many ways very forward looking on these issues, what is it that you have found that can be done to address bias through workplace policies? For all of us as leaders in private industry, we have to set a higher standard for ourselves, and within workplace policies and practices, we have to reframe how
we think about those. Again, if we go to the higher standard, we often think about workplace policies as we've got benefits that we must be competitive in. We have to look at the legal laws and the minimum requirements country by country, and we set that frame for our
workplace policies. What we've tried to do within P and G is reframe that and think about not meeting this minimum standard of legal requirements or minimum standard of benchmark versus our competitive set, but rather what are those things that we have to think about as employment practices. And if you asked any of us as leaders for employment practices, we want to be best in class. I don't want
to hire competitive leaders. I want the best leaders. I don't want to build policies and and individual and assignments that are pretty good. I want to build great experiences for my employees. So there's reframing from it's something I have to benchmark competitively or media legal standard is very different from framing it as I want best in class employment practices. And I think there's a couple that play into that. I think in terms of we call them
equality based policies. It applies to parenting leave, it applies to pay equity. There's so many places that we can again set this higher standard and reframe something as a best in class employment practice. And I think as companies, we have the opportunity and the responsibility to set that standard. So, Caroline, there is such a need for more progressive parenting leaf policies, and yet there is something getting in the way of
offering these progressive brant to leave policies. What is it that keeps companies, that keeps their society more generally, from moving in the right direction. One of the things that was interesting in the Gender Gap report this year from the World Economic Forum is that of the hundred and fifty three countries that were surveyed, there are no countries, literally zero countries where men do more of the unpaid
care work at home and with family than women. In all of the hundred and fifty three countries, women do a disproportionate amount of that work. In the very best of those hundred and fifty three countries, the best, women do only two times more work than men. You know, it's still a very big issue that we have within our society that says women have a responsibility for home
and family. What we believe at p AND is that both parents have a responsibility for home and family, both partners both supposes, and we have been very specific about setting a requirement not only for sufficient paid maternity leave, but for paternity leave as well. How do we make sure we offer both of those? If we only offer maternity leave, we somehow reinforce this myth that caring for
home and family is only for women. If we offer maternity leave and paternity leave, we reinforce the reality that caring for home and for family has no gender. You know, we have paid paternity leave in every country in which we operate, and we see that as more men experience that opportunity to be with their children when they first come into the home, it makes such a difference not only to them in their family life, but also in
our work environment. It creates an empathy for women who are going out on maternity leave in thinking about how do you plan the time that you're away, how do you think about re entering the workforce after you've been gone for an extended time period. These are all important things for both men and women to understand. Another thing that's really important is having the conversation with men to ensure that we set the expectation that they then take
paternity leave. I don't say to an expectant mother, are you taking maternity leave? But many times I say to an expectant father, are you taking paternity leave? Why would I ask one and not the other. It's sets a different standard, so I should expect both would want to be part of bringing a new child into the home. And I should set the expectation that we expect them
to take that time. We want to offer the support so that they can have that time, because we know children who grow up with two very invested and involved parents do better. It's really good for everybody. Carolin, you make so much sense, and this is such an enlightened view of what we need to be doing and why we need to be doing it. So what about pay equity? Pay quality is another one of those areas where companies, I think often overlook this larger picture that you just
described when it comes to print a leaf policies. Do you see it the same way when it comes to pay quality policies? Yeah, really, we absolutely do. I mean, over the past few years, we've had several companies that have been heralded for identifying and fixing pay gaps between women and men in the same roles. And one could argue whether fixing a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place is something that deserves celebration, But regardless,
it's still only the first step. We have to ensure pay equity same roles for men and women as a minimum standard. And what if instead of being satisfied with fixing pay and equality. Business made fair pay the minimum standard and income equality or wealth equality the top priority. That would be a great standard for us to set. So you mentioned income equality in the same sentence that
you mentioned pay equality. What is the difference between pay quality and income equality and how can companies begin to close the income gap as well? Well. The pay gap is the gap between how women and men are paid in similar positions, and that's easy to spot and easy to fix in organizations that are really committed to fair pay.
For example, at p ANDNG, we do audits, and we look at audits for men and women, for people of color, for different levels and experiences, different time in role, people with different experience. We look at all kinds of different diagnostics really to ensure we don't have bias in our system that pays somebody differently than another for the same level of performance in the same work. So this is
equal pay for equal work. You've got it exactly. The income gap is really the difference in total wages earned by women and men. So when more men than women hold more of the senior roles in an organization, there's an income gap, and and so that can be calculated by taking all of the men in an organization and getting their average salary, all of the women in an
organization and getting that average salary. If women are disproportionately at more junior or entry roles in the company, that becomes a lower number than men who may have a disproportionate share of the roles at the very top of
the company. So the income gap, or we call it a wealth gap, happens by virtue of disproportionate representation, and the only way to address that is really to get to fifty fifty representation at every level of the organization, including the c suite and frankly including the board of directors. So it's not enough to look at pay equality, but income equality is also important and companies need to be
moving in making progress in both of these categories. So we started Caroline by talking about the World Economic Forums Gender Gap report, and the gap clearly is still cavernists in many ways. And I wonder what will it take to get to fifty fifty. Well, I think it takes. The word I like to use is intentionality. I think we have to be very intentional in what we do. I think for companies, it takes commitment, it takes accountability. But again many companies may have that without the intentional
plans to address it. How do we think about giving women experiences that they need? How do I think about doing the simple math to determine how many roles I need to ensure that I advance women into in order to get to fifty fifty. It really requires a commitment from the top of the organization, talent planning and accountability throughout the organization, and again these plans, but it can be done. You know, at PNG, our CEO is a committed to this. He's visibly leading the work. We talk
about this all the time. We are all held accountable to delivering our targets and ensuring we are creating the very best talent pool for PNG and for our future. Today of all of our managers are women, and we are on our way to forty eight percent. I think by the end of this year. That's up from fort when we started. And that's a broad base of employees at the very top of our organization. I'm very proud
of this. Our global c suite, so the very top leaders in the company representation has gone from to four d percent, the major major jump, but again through intentionality, simple math, What are the numbers translating it to very specific numbers, developing plans? Who is the talent pool we're looking at, what are the experiences that they need? How do we get people in line to take on those roles?
And very intentional planning accomplishes tremendous things. Our board of directors has gone from thirty women's representation to forty two. So progress is possible in a very short period of time, but we have to develop the very specific plans to get there. So Caroline, let's tease that out a little bit. Clearly, what you're talking about is leadership, commitment, and responsibility. So how did you make this progress? And perhaps more importantly,
how can others learn from your approach? So we started very much with intentional talent planning, and as you know, and we've talked so many times, simple math. So let's say you have an organization of two hundred people, it's men, it's women. Typically we'd say I've got to double the percentage of women from to get to equal and to get to fifty fifty. Well, doubling the percentage of women sounds like wow, I've been a company in place for maybe decades. How do I double my population in a
short period of time. It just sounds overwhelming, and so we might just accept that it would take that time unless we do the simple math. The simple math says, if I want to get to fifty fifty with an organization of two hundred people, I need fifty roles. I need fifty more women. I need a balance that fifty is the number that I have to develop plans for, and within those plans, I need assignment planning. I need to find the talent with the greatest potential men and women.
I need great experiences for them. I need sponsorship for that top talent, and everywhere along the way. We have to be intentional, and we have to make sure that we're not falling into the bias that exists everywhere. There's a lot of times that we have said we really want to advance women, but we have to ensure they're qualified women well. In the company I'm part of, we have about representation at the entra level of our company. They go through the same qualifications, they go through the
same criteria. So I've had equally qualified people coming into the company. What happens that they lose their qualification as they move up in the organization. The logic doesn't work. So I have to ensure that I test for that bias. I have to make sure that I'm looking at my
talent holistically. I'm looking at all of the potential talent, giving all of that talent the opportunity for those great experiences, that great skill building, the opportunity to expand and build their leadership capability, so that I can get the very best talent in the organization all the way through. And in doing that, I'll get to fifty. I'm confident of it. You know, Caroline, as you talk, I hear the power of that word intention quity, because clearly that's what you're
operating on. You You are really thinking about where you want to get and committed to getting there by having the proper intentionality, if you will, to achieve those goals. Uh. And I think there's a lesson in that for all
of us. But there's another area where PNG is truly cutting edge, and I think that's the work that you're doing to change mindsets, which may be the hardest work there is to do in this space, because moving from bias, whether it's intentional bias or conscious bias, to unconscious bias it really means changing mindsets, seeing things differently, and you're doing so much of that through advertising. Tell us a little bit about that, because it's just fascinating. Well, thanks
for your tremendous compliments. And we know that advertising has the opportunity to shape how people see the world and it has the power to spark conversations that can change mindset. You know, we're the world's largest advertiser. We call it one of our superpowers because we have the opportunity then to really harness that superpower and change the world. And we really see that as the opportunity to be a force for good. But we all know advertising is also
a force for growth. It's really important to build our brands, and so when it comes to tackling bias, when it comes to shaping mindset, we see advertising as a great tool in a vehicle, and we look for opportunities for our brands to speak out on issues that are important
to them. When we do that, when we find an issue that really is important to our brand team and we can find a way to connect that in a way that's very authentic to the brand voice, authentic to what the brand does, how the brand works, then we really find a way to integrate that, and that's when
we have really powerful messaging. So the work that our Secret team has been doing on pay equality, the work that they've done with the national women's soccer team donating half a million dollars to really ensure that players can get paid equally, the amplification of those voices of the National women's soccer team, the voices of strong independent women everywhere through Secrets All Strength, No Sweat campaign. We have great campaigns like Always for decades decades has really stood
for how to really enable girls to thrive. One out of two girls loses confidence as they go through puberty, and so are Always Team launched their like a Girl campaign to really inspire girls to stand in their strength and their uniqueness and really feel amazing at all that they have to offer the world, and that campaign has run for many many years. Our aerial brand or Share the Load campaign is striving to redefine gender roles at home, and r s K two skincare brand is questioning stereotypes
with changed Destiny. So there's so many examples. I'm so proud of all of our brand teams and they're doing amazing work worldwide. Uh, and frankly, many of these brand campaigns become some of our best advertising, our best opportunity to build our brands. Caroline, this is so exciting. When I said cutting edge, it's hard to really comprehend just how cutting edge this work is through advertising because we
all look at those ads. The ads clearly are building brand, but they are also doing so much good for society and really changing mindsets along the way. With everything you have done and the company has purposefully done with this intentionality, we've been talking about what is your call to action
for other business leaders? What can they learn? You've learned a lot about what makes the difference, and it would be really interesting to hear you as we can fluid this conversation about what other business leaders can learn from the PNG experience. Well, I'll start where you started that said, you know, two and fifty seven years to economic equality for women. I mean, that's simply unacceptable. We can do better than that. We must do better than that, and
so reversing that and accelerating equality. It requires commitment at the very top. It requires intentionality and accountability throughout the organization and as companies and leaders. I believe that we're in a very unique position to make change. We don't have to wait for anyone in business. I don't have to wait for legislation. I don't have to wait for somebody to give me permission as a business leader, as CEOs, for businesses, for private sector, we have the ability to
act now. So my ask for all of the business community and for private sector is go find your superpower. Go identify where you can make a unique impact. Find that place in your company, that part of your business model, that part of your strategy to reach consumers, that part of your workplace environment where you believe you can have the greatest impact, and then commit to it, do it, and then importantly start now. We as Seneca women talk
a lot about power and purpose. You are an example of using your power and the company as a whole using its power for the kind of purpose we've been discussing here in Davos. I hope you keep going in this space because you are leading by example, and I can't thank you enough for your leadership, for your commitment, for the purposeful way that you go forward every day in leading the way. So thank you so much, Caroline. Thank you, and the same to you and all of
the work you do with Seneca women. We are old to work with you. You inspire us all every day. Thanks Carolin, stay tuned for our takeaways after this break. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Carol and tastad. To learn more about PNG's work in this space, go to PG dot com slash gender equality our top takeaways. First, to solve gender inequality, we don't need to fix the women. We need to fix the system. As Caroline says, it's time to challenge the false narratives about women, to debunk
the notion that they lack ambition or confidence. Women lead differently than men, and that's okay. Second, try a simple technique that can help you see things in a whole new light. When you hear or read a statement, substitute he for sheet or vice versa. An example, when she looks her best, she can do her best. Now try when he looks his best, he can do his best. Sounds silly when you change that heat to a sheet, doesn't it flip the pronoun says Caroline, and you'll flip
the bias. Lastly, the World Economic Forum estimates will have to wait over two hundred years to attain economic gender equality. And we just can't wait that long. Companies can help close the income gap by ensuring that women have representation at every level, including the c suite and the boardroom. How to get there, According to Caroline, the best tool is the power of intentionality accompanied by commitment and accountability.
You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio with support from founding partner PNGNG. Listen to Seneca Women Conversation on Power and Purpose on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and please support this podcast by telling your friends, subscribing,
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