A New Chilean Constitution Could Mean Big Changes to Copper and Lithium Mining

irony of um, I guess the green revolution. In order to save the world and bring down emissions, we have to move to new types of energy electrification, a lot of which requires certain types of minerals and metals, and

getting those is actually environmentally destructive in many ways. Right. So, we recently had a conversation, for example, with Nick Snowden of Goldman Sex and of course over the long term he's extremely bullish on copper, for example, but as he noted, you know, one of the reasons for his like super bullish copper call is that they're just as not as much mining activity. And he pointed out, you know, around the world, it's not just in rich countries around the world.

There's been much more concerned being raised about the environmental consequences of mining, the water consumption that happens in copper mining specifically, and he noted that Chile, which many people know is one of the biggest sources of copper in the world, it's become a much more difficult place to

get a new mind built. Right, so, even if there is theoretically enough copper in the ground to satisfy the world's demands for electrification, it's becoming harder and more challenging to get it out because there are these additional environmental concerns, and in Chile in particular, they're even writing some of these environmental concerns into their new constitution, which is very

different to the types of constitutional writing that we've seen historically. Yeah, and so copper, of course, lithium is another big one for batteries because of copper the transmission and then you have you know, this boom and batteries. But again, lots

of similar environmental issues raised. And so rather than just you know, talking about, yes, they're all these environmental issues that get that have to be addressed, we should probably talk more about what they are, what the opposition is what are the concerns, why our politics changing, and how

do we resolve or think about resolving some of these tensions. Absolutely, and I'm also very interested in this from an E s G perspective because one of the fundamental questions over E s G has always been should you let the market decide this or should the government actually be making these restrictions? And Chile is really an interesting case example of all of this. Well, I'm very We really have I think the perfect guest for this episode. We're going

to be speaking with Dr Christina Dorador. She is a microbiologist from Chile and she is a former member of the Constitutional Assembly of Chile. Just recently, just a few days ago. We're recording this July eight, but only four. This new proposed constitution that it codifies and shrines some of these environmental protections was put forward. It's going to

be voted on later in the year. But she was involved in drafting, uh this new proposed constitution and for the first time which really gets at some of these tensions and puts it of of mining and protecting the environment right into the constitution itself. So Dr Dorador, thank you so much for coming on odd lots. Thanks to you for their invitation. So why don't you just give us a little bit of your background in bio. I'm mentioned that you're microbiologists, mentioned that you've been part of

this new constitutional Assembly in Chile. But what where does your interest in this space and work in the space come from. I did my my undergrad in biology. Then I did my based in Germany where I focused the study of micro organisms in extreme environments. So then I come back to Chile to analyze the micro organisms that living in the desert that a Kama desert and also in other places such as Salatis. There are very special ecosystem of a Politic lakes that now are the source

for lithium. So I'm working in this subjects more than I don't know twenty years ago. So um, we have a lot of experience about ecology and also the micro organisms that live in there. So you mentioned the unique ecosystem of Chile. Could you maybe give us a little bit more color on that, Like, what exactly is it about the geography of Chile that makes it so important to things like copper and lithia mining. Sure, well, Chile

is it's a land of extremes. You know, in the north of Chile we have the driest desert in the world'ma desert in the south is Patagonia and but specifically not a Cama desert. Um there are a high concentration of minerals and also high diversity, so it's possible to

find almost the whole predict table here. And and also it's in large reserves and in the special case of the of the water because it's a rist of course water is under the ground and and also the fresh water is coming from from raining during during the summer um and it's located in these special lakes that are called salades that already mentioned, and a couple of rivers. So the water is very scarce. And and actually for all the mining, the big mining that produced Chile is

using discarce water from the desert. So yes, So there's something that came up on a recent episode, and we were talking to the chief metal strategist at Goldman Sax and he mentioned, you know, he said, you know, the copper mining is generally improved, it's sort of environmental sustainability, but for one thing, there is a huge water need in copper mining. Can you talk a little bit about

from your perspective, what you see. You know, start with copper, right, we'll also talk a lot about lithium since I know you do a lot of work on that. But what do you see as sort of like the environmental costs or the price that Chile or people in Chile pay for have being such a big source of copper mining. Yeah, well, the copper mining exploitation is happening here since I don't know about a hundred years, and so it's a long story.

And in all this time, the water using for these processes have been have enough Chinese locally, so that means from underground water and also the lower river that is the only river that we have here in the attack Anti Fagasta region and the large copper mining in the last from from the nineties UH started big private minings

and working they have been used water from salaries. So there are many cases than this big mining have drying out the whole ecosystem, producing the whole water extracting the water for more than twenty twenty five years day and night. So that's is a massive environmental damage. And also it's not only the damage is environmentally also social because they have practices that people were not used to, you know,

to deal with, and so it's very complex. But now copper mining is start to to use the slainest water for the sea also either direxy water or through the salidinization plants. But also of course everything half a fun effect. So and then the main problem I think here is the it's the magnitude, because the magnitude of processing this copper it's immense. This is so big that people can see these holes from the from the space, you know, So that means also an equivalent amount of water that

have to be used. So my understanding is that a lot of water is also used in lithium mining. Could you maybe describe that process as well, and also tell us what your own research says about quantifying the economic damage from these types of processes. Yeah. Um. In the case of lithium um, lithium is um concentrate here in

this um evaporitic basins called salades. They were in the past large pale lakes through the I'm have been drawing out and the industry what they do is to pump out the brines that are actually water full of salts concentrated in salts and between the sols are slipium there and they evaporate the water. So this is a water mining, so it's not a mining from rocks, it's from the water. So they have to be free of the water, so evaporate the water and then concentrate in a very arid

place produced major effects. So we have studied through using satellital images and also other parameters. The sladata comma where is the main extraction by now? Right now? Has been affected in different ways. For example, is less water in general, but also the population of flamingos have been migrated from here, this is less In the the last ten years, population of endemic flamingo have been decreases in a twelve person your scientific background is microbiology. Can you talk a little

bit further about the microbiology of the region. And I mean this is going to sound crass, but I don't mean it at all in a in a crash way. But I guess the question is how why should people care more about this and what are you know in theory? I get why people worry about the loss of wildlife, the loss of biological diversity and so forth, but how do you especially like even in the drafting of the Constitution. How do you express the risks involved from damaging some

of these ecosystems. This is very complicated because um first, all this eco system I'm talking about Atakama desert and saladdes, for a long time have been thinking that they were they were not life there because it's if you see pictures from the takamma is is nothing you cannot see in some part any plant. So but the life is just there is microbial. So if we take any example from from the dry soil of salt or whatever, we can't found bacteria and micro organizes and leave there and

they are very important part of the traffic web. So flamingos for example that they are in this sama in oders they eat sediments and these sediments are full of bacteria and and that also been used as an energy as energy source of energy and and pigments and whatever. They are important for the source for the life. So everything is related. So and that's why they're very fragile because when the system changed at microbial level, also affect

that major levels, so the impacts are even bigger. So as as been very complicated to explain this because it's different when there is a there is another sensibility when when when I'm environmentalist, for example, they claim to protect a native forests or Patagonia. You know, it's visible life there and also the landscape are amazing, so people really feel touchy about that. When you talk about priests protect the desert, it's like what the desert is there to

be exploded more than a hundred years ago. I have been there the source of resources for Chili always, so nobody really talked about protection of the desert is something even sometimes uncomfortable because you know environmental is it's not seen something important for a long time about mining. So we have to put that information also on the table for discussion in the in the assembly, and and we

we reached I think very important opjetics. First, we declare that the nature has rights and this is a major advance because change or ethics regarding ecology. So we recognize ourselves as a human as part of our ecosystem, and that also means that we need as a human of course, we have the responsibility to take care about the nature regarding certain relations of course. So yeah, this is what's

very interesting challenge. How do people in Chill feel about the mining industry and I realized that it's difficult to generalize, and probably your opinion will be informed by how close you are to any mining operations. But my understanding is that it brings a lot of money into the country, but that money is not necessarily well distributed among the population, and that economic inequality is one of the reasons why the country embark on this new constitution process in the

first place. There were big protests in twenty nineteen. So how do people feel, you know, broadly about the industry. Well, in general, there is the feeling that the system, the economical system that Chilen have mostly based on the abstraction of raw materials, even minerals or forests or someone whatever. It's not really helping people because of the political system that we have a legacy from the Constitution of nineteen eighties. So that's why I was important to change this constitution

first to warrantee social rights. So now we advanced from a subsidiary state one based on democracy and social rights and regarding mining. So I'm coming from a this is the biggest region of mining, I was saying, Chilen and probably in the world for Coppa, and my family is from here, so we have a long history in this territory and the feeling of the people is that, of course it's important mining. They give a lot of job,

but I haven't really improved life here. So for example, we're still doesn't have a good railways or or good um transportation system whatever, those the basic things for for living in a place. All the money goes to Santiago and especially to three well psychomonas, the most rich ones, and from there they distribute the money back to the territory.

So that's very unfair. That's why one or the most important advances is the new proposal of constitution is that the state create a news a new political and regional system. It's called statarynal o regional states when every reason is half autonomy. And that's very important because we will take around decision and also we will have our own money we don't have we we don't have to depend anymore of the decision of Santiago. So that's is a major advance.

And probably also that we have consequences that uh, you know, an environmental or other levels. So you mentioned enshrining the rights of nature in the Constitution, and again this is the first time that this has really been done done to my knowledge on a constitutional basis. But how far does the draft that was released this week actually go. Is it a complete ban on mining or something less than that? Nothing changed? Really we have in in and in a short place in the short term. Sorry, uh.

The important thing is that for example, for water chill what they have been privatized. So now we we demand in the constitution that all these propriety rights are compared into authorization so people before people can freely obtain these property rights and having for forever, you know, for perpeture. So now will be focused on on on the humans

and people instead of the different other uses. Because we also, um right and this proposed the human right for water that was not guarantee until it are people that don't have access to water at all, but next to them popular population, our companies using the water, you know, and and and and understate and focus on people. So this kind of inequalities we have already. So that's why it's important to advance in in this recognizement of the nature rights.

So um it's not only just that, also there is a whole very robust body of articles that will help to put that in in you know, in movement all this right, especially the creation of the the we all the fensory of the environment, so people could they are present their demands or the requirements about nights of protection. And of course the environmental standards either for minding of

other activities will increase. But that is how I have to I wanted to say that as it's not something bad, it's also necessary we as our country will be one of the most affective country by climate change, so we

need to also take care about our future. I know it's a pub station of corperal lithum is very important now for v cars and everything, but also we need to take care about our own land, you know, and and some and that this is the portunity that we have, you know, to to write our own constitutions say that we want for the future of for people. I want to ask more about what the constitution actually does and

how you see it working. But before we do, you mentioned the water system in Chile, and my understanding is that it's the only country in the world with a fully privatized water market. Can you explain how how that came to be? Mhm, Well, that was a whole ideological plan m preparing during the dictatorship of pinut Chet. So the constitutional anten eighties was written in a way that to think about the state is to have less power.

And also very important elements like the water and other were privatized because in their ideology they think that this is the best way to to manage a country. But now after more than forty years, we know that this is not the way for us. That's why there was this m This is all the studies of social or no in in twenty nineteen and and it's not really working.

You know, all the systems produce a large inequality in the country that it is immense and not not only regarding to money or access to buy things of consumer it's also cultural gender base, uh depends where you leave everything. So it's impossible to maintain a social equilibrium or social peace like that. That's why it's so important to change the constitution. And with this in mind. Um for example, that the water code was created in nineteen eighty one

and in nineteen ninety two, already the big miners. Miners were already obtaining the water right that what explodes in the nineties, so there was a whole preparation for to to produce a large amounts of copper in after the dictatorship.

So my, uh, the last time we talked about this, our guests said that already Chile has become a much harder place to launch a new copper mind so, even even setting aside the new constitution and whether it passes in a national referendum, that in two it's significantly more difficult to get started on a new mining project than it was twenty years ago in the early two thousand's when we had the last sort of commodity supercycle and those tons of demand from China for copper and other minerals,

and it sent prices soaring. Can you talk a little bit about what's happened and what's changed over the last several years, uh, such that politics has changed, mining permitting has changed, and just I guess general awareness of environmental consequences has become more has become more top of mind. I'm not really agree with that, because we, uh, we just try to be fair, you know, one way all the in the economical point of view usually is not

include the environmental damage. We don't know for example, amount of money I have been maybe paid by the state to solve problems related to big mining because as not insists, it's not in the equation. Also, it's not the in the equation the social cause. For example, the work that is not paid world by woman because women have all the task of care that thanks to that, men's especially can work in the minds does not including this equation.

So probably we're not really seeing the whole pictures. That's why we just demand more control. You know, that people can also be part of the decision because also the constitution include that methods of the direct democracy and more participation in the decision that we that we affect their own lives. It's more democracy, and that's is that's is a very good news for the world because um also for the mind and that they will have if they

do well. Stuff. Now regarding all these new you know, if it's a proof of course um new demands, they will have a higher consideration and local level because also for some people they are bad neighbors, you know, so it's as important to think about this front of you. So would you say that as of right now, like the current status quo, that there just hasn't been much change in that, you know, the extractive industries when we're talking, uh, copper, lithium,

other minerals. That company is one of mine. The status quo right now is still pretty liberal in terms of what companies are able to do. Yeah, that's pretty liberal. Yeah, that will of course the emvironmental relations, but they're not as strong as it should be. I think, for example, just a very short example here in Ada, Comma is a case of a gold mine that was actually everywhere in the world. Then what was the National Geographic magazine?

Where to start to to dig the mining? They need to move a whole colony of tintilla that is an animal in are very cute, Yes, exactly as well. And they proposed a plan to move the cynteria from that this um mountain and to move to another one, and of course in the transportation then die and that's not good mining. It's complicated, but I think we need to face these problems in a in a in a wider way. We need to talk about it. Not just everything have to be you know, surrounded by market. We need to

also think about the future. We cannot do the same thing forever because we have limits. The planet has limits. And if we put inside the climate change, if you're worsd so That's why it's so important to include different ways and include diversity, people that think differently. It lista and the big dialogues, or there was nothing would happen. I will be worst at the end of the Dame. So on the topic of paradoxes and looking at the

planet as a whole. And I want to make it really clear that this is a devil's advocate question before I ask it. But what do you say to people who will look at the situation in Chile and they will say, well, we need that copper and we need that lithium so that we can shift to cleaner and greener technologies on a global basis, we need electric cars, We need more electricity in general in order to reduce

a miss and save the entire planet. And what if it is necessary to sacrifice a desert in Chile in order to save the planet. More broadly, what would you say to those people, I think we need more elements in the conversation. First, if it's I think we all were agreed, then we need to decrease emission is some saying crucial. But the country that produced more um carbon dioxide, they're really doing their best, you know, they're really decreasing

the amount of carbon that they produce. Because we Chile, we are very small country compared to others, we don't we don't produce much carbon. We produce very little in compared to the big no China or the US, and but we have the corbon on the left field. So and also the question is, of course we we it's important to make this just transitions for electricity did, but really will change the or destiny of global warming. That's

that's the one question that we have to solve. You know, I think we need more research about that and and open research and research and include other views, not just uh, you know, a way too tour of replacement. And what we do is a replacement of things. We replace cars based on carbon two cars based on electricity, but it's still be in cars. And it's not also any incentive to decrease the number of cars is the opposite. So if I think that the conversation, you have to be

more honest. It's not just we sacrifice ecosystem for the good of the of the planet, because I'm not sure that will is like that at the end if we put all together. So the current status quo seems to be you have a few extremely rich countries or very big countries in the case of China, that produce a massive amount of emissions, and then there are mining and

it's in smaller countries. As you mentioned, Chile is not a very big contributor to emissions or global warming directly, and so the rich countries in the world want to electrify and need or want the minerals and metals of

poor countries. Do you work with activists and scientists and politicians in other countries as well to think about a sort of global response to this, and more broadly, like, why do you think it's happening now, because my impression is that it's not just in Chile where people are sort of becoming more aware waking up to some of the costs associated with industrial scale money. Sure, sure, you know, science and a knowledge is a collective work. Um uh.

My case also have been a personal way, personal road because I'm from very specific discipline that is microbiologist, and I have to and when how realizing, because I'm working salaries, So every time I've been there working you know, to study them biochemical mechanisms for act for adaptation to extreme conditions. We went there and we noticed of the lay that we're working. I say that it's also having a personal road.

You know me as a microbiologists um scientists working in a very specific mechanism to understand the biology of microft. Then we work to the salaried working and every time we whether, we realize that it is what some saying different so that the place that we're used to work that doesn't exist anymore, that was completely drying out from example, So at some point we faced that personally. So okay,

it's very important. The sign is very important to write papers to know, you know, to be in the system. But what we as a as a as a human, as a person living here, we can protect this ecosystem because we know that so important. They have a high value diversity. They're probably in terms of bioptic compounds, is a source of new medicine for the world, but they use that now existent and the ecosystem is is the destruction because lithium extraction is the destruction, means the destruction

of the salaries. There's no other way until now, and and that's why I start to talk with other people with other countries, with other disciplines. I started to also create a network of people from anthropology that also works in economy and why and we are excusing this And I realized that was not crazy to think that, you know, as I could be another ways, another possibilities, and that we're trying to work now, can technology save us from

having to make some of these hard decisions? I feel like that that's what people are often hoping, right that there will be more efficient ways to use water when it comes to copper or lathia mining and it won't have as big an environmental impact and we can keep doing it while electrifying the planet. Is that a possibility? Yeah, Technology is important. Science is very important Chili, especially as account to that invests very very few in in in

science and technology. That's why something that we put a lot of attention in the new Constitution, we declare the rights of knowledge and we hope, I really hope that that would produce more alternatives, uh and also more technology. But there is no one solution for this, you know, It's that very very complex, and we also we have to face this complexity, and to face complexity, we need to include more people in the in the discussions. So

July fourth, the new Constitution was unveiled. When what is the process now? Just for listeners, there's going to be a referendum later this year, like what happens between now and then and how does this work? Yeah, yeah, we'll be a referendum this for September the fourth, in two months more or less. Now already started the campaigns about that too. To decision just approval, approve or reject rotasso and the proposal that we did. So if it's work, the work, when the ratasso, we will stay as we

are without changes. But also that's just it's a complicated situation because we will not give any any response to the social demands of people. So probably that also we produce a time on political instability in the country. And if you win the U provel, we need to also, I mean as as a country, we need to work on installed what the constitutions said. That of course would

be a long term process. Probably will take tears to do that, but I think it's very necessary, um, considering that we need to advance in and wellness for the people and also to face they speak, challenge and we have as a small country that um also if we've been will be very effective by climate change. Do you think the new constitution will be approved. Yeah, I think so. It's complicated. There is a lot of fake news around

that m mass media are are not really helping. But I think people is very interesting and they're really looking for So yeah, now we have to work a lot for that. How exportable do you think some of the principles enshrined in this new constitution would be to other countries? And you know, I've seen it described um well in all types of language. I think the economist called it a fiscally irresponsible left wing wish list, which seems quite harsh.

I've seen people call it awoke constitution. I've seen other people just say it's more progressive in the sense that it pays attention to what people in Chile actually care about, which you know is gender and economic equality and environmental concerns. As you've been laying out, do you think the principles or just the idea of some of these principles could be used in other countries? Well, lu in the dictatorship till also live, I think one of the biggest experiments

in the war. Oh no, we were the experiment for the new liberalism, and that's the consequences. So and now this is a hope for people, hope to live a half of our life to do. And also when when we explain that two people is um I have experience to live in Europe for example, and Sis, it's something you know normal that someone have right to go to the hospital and have good quality attention, or to go to the kids can go to the school and they will be accepted. Not because of the amount of money

that we have. So there are basic things that's a human rights as we're looking for here. So and I think the analysts sometimes, especially when the look South America, they really reduce the complexity of politics to left or right. Here we're faces big challenges. I think, what is what is climate change? It's left or right, it's different, it's different. So I think that's also we need to do a more deep try to understand what's going on in in

other countries. Think a little bit outside the box of the market. I think a little bit about the diversity, the contribution of the diversity and also the future. And

that's one of the things that you can contribute. Especially for example, I will mention about this is the first time that we include um native you know, indigenous people in this conversation and that also produced for example, we we push an area called pistemic justice or knowledge justice, so we have to respect but the other thing and also what they know. That's why in our constitution regarding

the right for science, we call right for knowledge. So it's the first time and it's also is a recommendation from on ESCO that we recognize the knowledge as a whole, so I mean science, technology, but also art, humanities, local knowledge and indigenous knowledge, and that I think it is a very important starting point to to deal with this complex problems that we are deal right now and of course we will deal in the future. Dr Door Door,

thank you so much for coming on. We've been needing this perspective in the conversation for a while and I really appreciate you laying it out and talking about the work that you've done on the new constitution and the rethinking of the costs of mining. So I appreciate you coming out and outlasts. Okay, thank you very much. Again. I hope the ideas were understandable because it's the other another language, but thank you very much coverd this thing.

I think it's important for the audience. Thanks Fristina yeah, thank you so much, Tracy. I thought that was a really good conversation. And I think that you know, whether you think, oh, electrification and decarbonization should be prioritized, whether you think you know, wherever you wait these various issues,

like this tension is very real. And I don't know whether the new Chilean Constitution is going to pass or not in September, but I don't think that this sort of like growing awareness and maybe backlash towards some of the environmental costs of mining is something that's going to diminish any times. No, it feels like the tension is

kind of inescapable at this point. I did think Christina's point about electric cars and the transition there this is something that came up before, although I can't remember who, but this idea that even if Western country reads shift to completely electrified modes of transport, it doesn't mean that suddenly the whole planet is saved, because a lot of those old vehicles just go to emerging markets and continue

spewing emissions. So I think, I think what she's getting at is the need for a holistic planet wide plan. And then when I say that, I just feel very, very sad. Because it feels like that is so far off and it is really hard to sort of balance individual interests versus the whole. Yeah, and you know the other thing is like, look, I think it's not very hard to get corporate interests in wealthy countries or even

the public necessarily behind the idea of like decarbonization. People like electric cars, even for non environmental reasons, and so if it's just about moving from gas electricity, that's pretty popular. I don't like any time the conversation shifts towards consuming less, fewer cars, less consumption overall, then I think like from a sort of like political standpoint, from a market standpoint, from a public in rich country standpoint, those solutions almost

seem like completely off the table and unacceptable. So the idea like what about consuming what about having fewer cars? What about making cars more sustainable so that they don't need to be replaced all the time. Like that's when I think the conversation gets the rubber really meets the road,

and you have real tension. But I think, look, if there's going to be a major slowdown, and she said, the new constitution doesn't propose a ban on mining, but if you're going to change the way how water rights are allocated. If you're going to change the way how who can be involved in the permitting process. It's going to slow down the trajectory of new mining, I would

suspect at a minimum. And then you get like this real situation where like, Okay, there's at any given moment there is less available and people don't like the politics of consuming less are really tough. Yeah, I think that's right. Um. And economics, by the way, and not well equipped for a world where you're telling people that they basically just have to consume less, like the whole thing is about growing, growing more. Um. All right, well, shall we leave it there.

Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Why Isn't Though? You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guest Dr Christina Door on Twitter. She's at Ceo Door. Follow our producer Carmen Rodriguez at Kerman armand