You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone, welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about the choices we make and where they lead us. I am so excited for my guests today. Not only do they have a huge heart, but they are someone who is putting so much good back out into the world and spreading a message of love and positivity. And I'm all about that. My guest today is known for being a part of the Fab Five on Netflix's Emmy winning
Queer Eye. He's an author, an LGBTQIA plus activist, and he is the host of his very own talk show. Please welcome Caramo to the I Choose Me Podcast. I'm very excited to talk to you, so thank you.
I'm very shcityed to talk to you.
Do you remember the last time we saw each other?
Of course, well a fortune, real.
Fortune, celebrity Wheel of Fortune.
Yes, of course you thought I would forget that. I mean standing next first of all, standing next to one of the most iconic and most beautiful women in the world. I'm a huge fan of you, but also like we were on there and I was like, what the fuck is going on? Right now?
I can This was one of the most fun days because you were struggling so hard and we were trying to send you like the answers struggling.
I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.
It was the pressure.
It was a pressure, that's what it was.
Oh my god, I felt for you. But anybody who hasn't seen that episode of us on Wheel of Fortune, you have to check it out because it will make you laugh. Oh very well, very very well. Such an exciting time in my life and yours.
Yes, tell me what's making your exciting? I want to hear. I know it's about when you're interviewing me, but I'm always like, yeah.
I just have a lot of really fun new things happening at this age in the stage in my life I never really saw coming, and it's just all happening and I love it.
That's exciting. Yeah, that's really true.
I listened to your book over the weekend. I couldn't read it. I had to listen to it, but I really enjoyed it. I got to know so much about not just you, but the culture that you grew up in. And it was so personal and honest and candid, and I know that was a few years ago now that you did that book, right.
Yeah, but it still all applies, yeah, change it was.
The journey to where you are today is so layered. Yeah, for those of us that don't know, can we just kind of like rewind to the beginning or talk about, like you grew up in Houston. I did, and I would just love to hear about your household and your relationship with your parents a little bit.
Sure. So I grew up in Houston, Texas. I'm the son of immigrants, so on first generation America, and my parents are jamaking in Cuban. And it was a it was a tough childhood because my father was not a great father. So I grew up in a house where my mother was abuse. He wasn't responsible with money, So we moved constantly, constantly, constantly moved. I don't think I ever stayed in a place longer than a year, honestly,
just moving, moving, moving. And then it got worse. We were in a hotel for a little bit, you know, just now I realized we were homeless. At the time, I thought it was like a fun little like for an hotel. You know, we're all staying twin beds, you know, it's so crazy with you how you process things as a kid and then as an adult you're like, hmm, that was a mess. But yeah, but there was, you know,
there was, it was, it was, it was. It was difficult childhood because I had these intersections of my personality that just never seemed to fit with anywhere I lived or anywhere I was. So it was my father did this thing that he thought he was doing the best, where he always moved into an apartment complex that was on the edge of whatever rich neighborhood that you know,
we could be near. And the reason it was because he wanted us to be in the best school districts, and so those school districts were predominantly white because of the income. And so now here I am, We're in the apartment complex next to the rich neighborhood. So I'm going to the good school, but I don't have the money they have. I also am a my name is Kamos. That's completely different from everyone else, who is John Kevin,
Bill Jason. Then, like I tell people, like they would bring lunches and they had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and I'd be bringing Oxtella curry goat because it was whatever we ate the night before. Like imagine a little sixth grader bringing in food to Mike uwaid. It just was all a train rack, you know. And now I look back and I laugh and I think it's humorous, But in the moment, it was like what in the hell.
So it just seemed like I never just fit. But even with that happening, and always in having the hard things at home, I just still felt like there's some there's gonna be something better. I just always was optimistic. I'm just an optimistic person. I just always have been that, like, this can't be it. There has to be something more. There has to be something more, There has to be a better life. And that's sort of how I lived my childhood into my adulthood.
And what's your relationship with your parents?
Like, now, oh, mom, my mother and I. So I'm the youngest, I have all sisters, and mother and I are very close, so we hang all the time. I actually just moved my mom to California a couple of years ago, so I bought our house out And for anybody who's from California and Woodland Hills, which is nice and it's just come out all the time. My father and I have had a tumultuous relationship because at the age of fifteen, I let him in. Regarding my sexuality.
Use the term coming out. It's actually a term that I've been spending the last couple of years trying to destroy.
I love this, by the way, because I've never felt comfortable saying coming out. That phrase just didn't feel right.
It's antiquated, and I think there was a time in the LGBTQIA community where it was empowering. It's like, you're not going to force me to hide, I am going to be But now it's like we're forcing people to make these grand announcements to people who don't matter to them and don't have any any bearing on their lives. And we're also forcing people to say to someone you now have the power to accept or deny me based on me coming out to you, and that's actually not
the process. The process is I'm going to let you in because I trust you and I love you. And if I don't want to let you in, it doesn't mean I'm ashamed of who I am. It doesn't mean that I am not okay with me. It means that the same way, I don't let everyone my front door. I don't need to let you into my personal life because you're not worthy of that space, or maybe you're not emotionally or mentally intelligent enough to handle it. And again,
your choice, it's my choice. It's my choice. You don't get the power to accept or deny me because I have already accepted myself, right, And so I left my family in my family when I was fifteen regarding my sexuality, and my father had an adverse reaction. He just couldn't reconcile his relationship with his son with his relationship with his religion, and it became abusive. He didn't you know, he didn't have memory in high school. He would just walk past me for days and not talking too, and
you know, it was abusive. And then and then once I, you know, graduated high school, I was like, deuces, I don't need to do in my life. You know, I'm gone. And we didn't speak for about I don't know, thirteen years, fourteen, fifteen years. We didn't speak, no contact at all. And during that time I forgave him, like I'm one of
these people who I don't hold on to grudges. I kind of like there's a nature in me that I don't know where it came from, but I'm just like, I don't want to hold on to like your bs. I don't want to hold onto it like I'm able to release it pretty easily.
That's lucky, good, Yes, it is.
I help so many people who don't know how to do that, and I'm always trying to give them the tools too, And like, for some reason, my entire life, I've been able to. And so it wasn't until about maybe six years ago he came back around and he wrote me a letter and said, I'm so sorry for the way I treated you. I'm so sorry for now loving you as a parent, and he asked for my forgiveness, and I was like, I forgave you. I was like, I forgave you years ago. You've been holding onto this.
I moved on, and so now we have somewhat of a relationship. You know, it's it's growing. But yeah, that's that's me and my parents and my family.
Yeah, that makes me feel so good. I'm happy that you that he came to that place.
Yeah, yeah, on his own journey, his own journey, and yeah, you know, I think what I've learned from that that I try to teach people is, you know, setting the boundaries and being clear about you're not going to be allowed to hurt me allowed him the space to make a choice for the turpe of person he decided he should be, and allowed him to say because I realized I don't want to force anybody to learn, right, It's
not my job. I'm open to helping somebody grow, but I can't help you learn about the person that you want to be. And I say that both professionally and
just as a human being, I can't. You have to make the choice that you want to learn, and you know, like I can be blue in the face telling you to read this book, learn about this, understand and until you make that choice, no, But once you make that choice, I'm going to be there with open arms to help you to grow, to help you to understand how you can use that knowledge to be better and to be a better human being for yourself and other people. And because I let him go, he made the choice to learn,
and then I was there to help him grow. And he's growing into a better man that he's ever been in his seventy five years. He's finally turning into the man that maybe he should have been when we were all younger.
Yeah, oh, I mean, thank god he's there now, but yeah, sorry for those stairs. Yeah god, you are a beautiful, open gay man. And I think that maybe one of the bravest, scariest liberating moments in any LGBTQ plus person's life is that I choose me moment when you choose to open up to the world or to your inner circle about your identity, and that you choose to let those people in, like we were talking about, and you did that when you were a teenager your set. You said,
what was that like for you? And who was the first person you let in?
I think it was just kind of a group in high school. See, I didn't have any choice. The reason I let people n I fifteen wasn't It was just because all my peers were dating and I wanted to date, and they were all talking about crushes. And I've always anyone who knows me personally knows how to have an honest filter, Like I mean, I like, I just am just like I can't. I just not able to hold it in. I'm able to And so I'm like, you all are talking about who you like I want to
talk about who I like. And the guy that had a crush on was his name was John Brown, and he was just beautiful. And we sat next together because my name was Caramo Brown and he was like six ' four and gorgeous, and I just thought he was the most gorgeous person. So I just spit it out. I was like, is anybody else obsessed with John Brown? Because I'm a Brown And so it just became that conversation. So it was like, you know, I just it was just out of that teen hormones running in that I
was like, I cannot, I can't, I can't. I gotta say it.
Oh my god, I really wish that I grew up with you. We would have been very good friends.
Oh my god, you it would have been a good time.
Have been trouble. I've been thinking about something, and I'm sure if I have questions about this subject, other people do, so maybe this will be useful to some people. I have someone in my life whom I love very much that is gay, but we've never really talked about it, not like really gotten deep and spoken about it. Yeah, And I don't know why it wasn't like it. Maybe there were times when I avoided the conversation and everybody knew, but nobody was talking about it. So I didn't want
to be the one that talked about it. And I'm the baby of the family and it just didn't feel like my place. Yeah, but how I mean for anybody out there who might be struggling with the same thing, Like, what advice do you have for me to start that conversation and why should I start that conversation?
Well, I think the importance we starting that conversation is letting somebody know that your safe space. I think still even in twenty twenty four. Oh my god, look at your own dog. Hi, maybe what's her name?
This is Sandy.
I wish you could see my two at my feet right now. They're Leo, They're both. Isn't it crazy how they just stay right beside you.
I have three dogs in here right now.
No. But I think even in twenty twenty four, we forget that, like, this world is still unfortunately an unsafe space and in some places where Astqia people and I think the more people know that there's people in their life that want to be a safe space for them, that want to be there for them, want to make sure they're advocating for them being an ally. It is important.
I think it's important for any one of us. And so when you ask that question of like why should I want to be curious, because it lets the other person know that I want to learn and I want to know that I can be there to support you, to make sure that you always feel seen. It's an important thing we all want that, you know. I equate it to kind of what I'm trying to do in
this space in my life. I realized that I was one of these gay guys before that had a lot of girl I have tons of girlfriends, but I would always make comments about like lady parts, like oh, I
don't want to see it, I don't whatever. And I realized one day I was like, this is so fucking excuse me for cussing, but I was like, this is so like deal with misogyny and like like the fact that I'm like ill to the female body and I'm like supposed to be an ally to women, and like when I'm having some straight men, I don't I don't know enough about the female body and I know about their feelings, but I don't know about like how to support them in conversations that I was like, I want
to stop doing that. And so I've been in this space about learning about the female body, like you can't even know. I'm digressing a little bit. Oh my gosh, the rabbit holes and the books that I'm going down
to learn. But I'm doing this because I need my girlfriends to know that when it comes to their health and the things there feel and how they're changing, that I'm a safe space that we don't have to just talk about boys, cocktails, going out, you know, like I mean, we do have deeper conversations, but I want them to know that when they're talking about what's important to them and how they feel, that I'm there and that I've
taken the time to learn and read. And I think to your point in your conversation by saying I want to learn and I want you to know that I'm here for you, that there's something that's special about that. But I think the way to approach that conversation the second part of your question is is this letting the people in your life know that I'm so willing you know, you don't even have to bring up sexuality, your gender or you know, in the gender if you don't want to.
Maybe I don't know where that relationship is, but privately being around them and saying I'm I'm so open to talking. I'm so open to being here for you. I'm so open to just being a place that you can talk to. They're going to get the clue that you want to be there have conversations, and that allows you to organically
find it. But I think just the desire and what you're asking is such an important thing, because what you're essentially saying is I want to be the best ally and support for people who already have right.
Right. Yeah, I'm very in tune with keeping the conversation present and open, you know, and being accepting of I've just I'm always been accepting. There's no question for me, like yeah, and so I have always just accepted it. But I do think that verbalizing that and just clarifying what you're talking about that I do care enough about you to want you to know that it's safe to talk to me about anything.
Yeah, about anything exact.
I like that. Over here at our house, my family and I are fans of your shows. We're just basically Coroma fans over here. Yeah, no denying it. You've just finished the filming the upcoming season of Queer Eye, which is season nine, right.
Season nine, Yes, in Vegas, and oh boy, for people to see.
This, that's gotta be a good season.
I'm gonna tell you it's a good season because Vegas is one of those places that you realize outside of the strip, there is so much heart and unfortunately there's so much hurt because this transient city. People come and they so one of the people. We're not gonna talk about this, yeah, but I can share a little bit. There's a person that we're helping who worked at her job for twenty five years and then that job just told her they were closing randomly.
And twenty five years. Wow.
And this is this is that her whole life changed literally a week before we were going to help her. Wow. Perfect timing, perfect timing, perfect timing.
I mean for her to grow with you, wow.
Yes, everything, for her to be able to grieve the change in her life, understand how she's going to have to move forward believing in herself again. Also just financially like for us to be able to come in and say, here is some support as you're about to go through this new change. We just I just fell in love with the people who live outside of the Strip of Vegas, and I was like, Wow, this town is more than we give it credit for, and so I'm so excited
to see it. We also have a new cast member, Jared.
Yes, and what happened Bobby left the show? You and Bobby are close? We're close? Are you still close?
Yeah? Me and Bobby are like best friends. He lived out, so we see each other all the time.
Oh perfect. I love that I've had that happen where you're on a long running show and then someone that you love, your friend, your castmate, leaves, and I know that can be difficult ground and like, how did you navigate that friendship with someone when you're working relationship ends? Because I think a lot of people can relate to that, no matter what their career is.
Yeah. For me, like, I believe that any friendship. So I have people who I work with that I'm friends with at work, and I have friends and this is not on Queerie. Queer as one of the shows I get along with everyone, So I'm friends. I'm friends with everyone, I say to say in other spaces, I've had friends who work friends and I have friends that I know that I want to build a relationship with, and I think sometimes people don't have that clear distinction, and so
things happen, and transitions happen. It becomes muddy and weird because some people don't know where they stand. Yeah, we've never had a real transparent conversation because it's hard because the assumption is, because we've spent eight hours a day together for four years, five years, twenty years, that we know each other. And sometimes you realize you don't. You know a version of me that's at work. You know this part of me, but I've never let you into
the rest of my life. And so for me, maintaining the relationship was more so about being an empathetic listener. You know, I tell people all the time. My granny used to tell me I have two ears and one mouth, which means he's supposed to be doing one of those things double time. And the thing that you're doing double time is listening. And so during this transition, I realized
my job was not to run my mouth. It was to listen to how everyone is feeling, Like, tell me how you're feeling, and know that I'm space that is not trying to solve it, not trying to be a solution, but just wants you to know that you're being heard, because I think that sometimes in transition, people don't feel heard, and we don't feel heard, that's when the feelings of anxiety, of loneliness, of isolation pop up, because you feel like
I'm on this island by myself. And so what helped my transition with Bobby is that he always knows he's heard. He's always felt hurt, and he knows that I'm listening and that I'm not here to judge his choices or anyone else's choices. I'm here just to listen and let him know that I'm here for him. And you know, one of the things that I love about what Bobby does is like like he gives me a call, like when we were shooting, and he's like, I hope it's
going great. I hope the season's awesome. I hope this is happening, and I'm like that just shows the character of you know, He's like, I hope the guys are having a good time, and it just shows that for each of us, you know, like no matter what, we understand that there's a bigger piece, which was helping people and you just still want that to be good. Yeah, I appreciate, right.
How is it working with your new castmate, Jeremiah.
Jeremiah is one of the most Have you ever met Jeremiah or Nate?
I've met Nate, I don't know about I think I met Jeremiah on a plane once.
Yes, Oh my gosh, you're very love He's he's one of the sweetest, most honest people ever, dear kind at all. So what he brought to this season, and if I can be really transparent with you, is that you know this from working on a long running show. After a while, it becomes a routine. You know, everyone knows what they're doing, and everyone knows what their role, and it becomes very Having Jeremiah there made me see this show like how I saw season one.
Oh, that's so good.
Because I had someone there who from the first day. I remember we walked into a house. On the very first episode of season nine, we walked to the house and Jeremiah, as we were walking out and we were all deciding what we were going to do, started crying and he was so tearful, and I was like, I turned him and I was like, baby, what's wrong? And
he was like, this is so thoughtful. Y'all are being so thoughtful about what you're about to do for this person, because a lot of people don't realize, like we really are thoughtful. We really think about it, you know this, We really figure out what we're going to do to help them, and we tell the producers, and the producers then support what we've said how we're going to help them. And so he was like crying. He was like, Wow, this is not just something where you know, you get
on camera and then you walk away. Y'all are really huddled up talking about what's going to be best for this person to have the best life. And I was like, yeah, baby, we do. And it just it just gives you this sort of like reinvigorating like and so and he works so hard this season. Sorry, I'm laboring on Jeremiah so much, but he worked so hard that it made us even work even harder because he was fresh and we wanted to match him and like his excitement and so our
excitement all went up too. Not saying we weren't excited, but like it can lose.
Its vigor after a while.
When it comes, and so we're used to it. We know formulas being the maggot. We've seen the formula, we've seen the magic we know, and with him there, every episode in season nine felt like every episode in season one.
Oh that's great, those fresh eyes. Fresh eye aspired that.
Yeah, every moment and which was beautiful and so ever people to see this because I'm like, I'm like, we haven't been like this, patting my own stuff on the back like this since one or two, like where you're just in it like everyone over hours, hours and hours over like when we did like season one and two and three where we're like I would be sitting there like really digging and having conversations for hours and putting hours and now coming back and we just did that,
and I'm like, okay, we're thanks, Jeremiah, thank you.
Oh good. Fresh energy is always good always for anything, anything, right, Yeah, talk about fresh energy. You had your father too, incredible, Yes, and then your journey to fatherhood happened in kind of a surprising, somewhat shocking a little shocking. How did you find out you were Jason's father and then Christian came into your life?
Yes? Yes, yes, so I have only had where everyone's adult here had sex with one girl he was my best friend. You're best friend since we were in seventh grade. Eighth was beginning ending in seventh grade, and she had a boyfriend in ninth grade who was a senior and she was going to lose his virginity to him, and she didn't want to be bad, and so she asked me if we could practice. She knew itay, yeah, I was like, I was like, okay, yeah, sure, this makes sense.
We're fifteenth for out of practice. And I mean, she knew I was gay, but it was like I was safe.
You were safe. Yeah, I was.
I was a guy she could be weird with and vulnerable with, and she wasn't. She couldn't be that with her boyfriend, but she could me. So we slipped school and we tried. It lasted no joke six seconds at and I literally sat on the side of the bed and I apologize to her now for this, and we have a good joke, but at the moment, I was like on the mat of your bed, like, no, I don't want to do that ever again. No, I don't want to.
It was probably a little hard for her to her and like.
That's why I apologize and we laughed about it. Now but I was like, I took your first moment away, Like you would have had a better shot with him where a special and he would have held you and he was your boyfriend.
Like who's to know?
Yeah, I used to know, but I'm like, you definitely didn't have a good good It wasn't good with the gay guy. We definitely know, me on the side of the bed rocking holding myself a blanket was not the first good look for it. And so she, you know, we laughed about it. We stayed friends. And then at the end of that school year, she moved away. And this is you know, I'm forty three about it, forty four, So this is nineteen ninety five. There was no cell
phones like there are today. There was no Instagram or social media. So when someone moved, if you didn't have their home phone number or mailing address, you know, like they were gone. Yeah, And I went on my life. I went on with high school and I just she I thought about her, but she was, you know, she just was a kid that moved away. And then when I was twenty five years old, I got a stack of paper for back child support. I was living in California at this point. For this kid. I didn't know.
And if I can be honest with you, I thought I was being punked because I was on MTV's Real World when I was after undergrad. I was twenty three years old, and I thought that MTV was doing like some pumped of the gay guy, like, let's punk the gay guy that he has a kid. And so when I saw these papers on my doorstep, I thought that Ashton Kutcher was in my house.
You thought he was just gonna pop out?
Yeah, I thought it was like I thought like someone was pranking me. Why why would I ever think that was the last time I'd ever saw a girl or like, didn't put a girl like and this is years now, a decade. I'm like, there's no way that I have a kid. So Ashon Coutcher's in my house, I read a plank me. I literally went down to my car and changed clothes into a new outfit because I wanted, Yeah,
I want to look good for oh. I was like, I got to and I walked in the house and if you would have saw the performance I had when I walk in that house, like I would and nobody was there to see it because the house's empty, And so I thought that the papers were for my neighbor, who is this straight bachelor, And I was like, oh, they're putting the wrong doorstep. I'll give you to him tomorrow.
I literally threw the papers out, and later that night is when I opened them and I saw her name them my name, and it was my first time seeing her name since I was fifteen, my son's name, and it blew my mind, and I immediately went back to Texas to confirm paternity. That took about two weeks. They confirmed the fraternity and they gave me her address and I went to her house and I showed up on her doorstep same way the paper showed up on mind. And when I opened the door, she was shocked because
she didn't come after me for back child support. She had applied for benefits for her other children she had had. She had five children total, and she had applied for food stamps, and because she had put me on the birth certificate, the state came after me. Wow the benefit she was receiving. So when I showed up on her doorstep, she was shocked.
Everybody was shocked.
Everyone was shocked, and in that moment realizing she was shocked, any anger that I had went away because I realized she wasn't being malicious. She was just a fifteen year old who was trying to make the right, best decisions. And the first that was I knew one of us had a chance of having a good life, and I wanted to be you because you were always so kind to me. And that's sort of why she didn't tell me.
And when you hear that, you knowing the life she had, which was abusive family, I just I forgave her and we became best friends immediately. And then like later that day, she was like, you want to meet your son. He's going to be home to school in three hours.
And wow, that must have blown your mind.
Oh my gosh, girl, I was like twenty five and a ten year old's a nine year old's walking home. I'm like, what am I about to do right now with this?
Like no, yeah, I mean, but I know I can tell for you that being a dad has just given you such purpose and meanings in your life.
Having finding out my son, and then within six months I petitioned for full custody with her support because she had five kids twenty five years old, you know, she was struggling. She did grat her in high school, so you know, she had to drop off because she was a team mom, and so it was my way of saying, I'm doing well, I'm done with college. My family's doing well.
Now like let me support. And then within that time period, her other son was being molested and the state was going to remove the kids out of the house, and so I said, well, I was a safe placement because I was licen in the state of Texas, and so he was going to stay with me for six weeks. Why they did investigation. Six weeks started to six months, six months to return to a year. And then one day he walked in the room and he called me Dad, And all of a sudden, I realized that I was
a father of too, and he was doing great. So I asked her for if I could take custody of him. She said yes. And and when I tell you, she said yes, this was with This wasn't an easy yes for her. I say that now in like hindsight, but in the moment, she's rappling, like, am I being a bad mom? Right? She knew that I would keep them close. She knew that I would keep them safe, and so I became his father of two by twenty six, like a ten year old and a seven year old, and it was like the weirdest thing.
With just no gradual build up to where they were. It was thrown in.
Alright deep, which I think, I like that in my life, and so I, yeah, they saved my life because I was I was dealing with my own issues from my father, like I told you about of him being abusive to my mother and him being abusive to me that I had never processed. I had forgiven him, but I had never processed the pain. And having kids it made me realize that I, first of all, I wanted to break that generational curse. I wanted to break that cycle of abuse.
It was so important to me. But breaking that cycle of abuse made me focus on the things that happened to me, like when I wouldn't react to the same way to my kids that my father reacted to me. It made me them processed. But why did he react to me that way? And I need a clarity? And it made me start digging and healing myself in a way. And I wouldn't have done if I wasn't a parent making better decisions.
Right, did you instinctually parent the way you were parented like in the beginning, no I.
Knew because it was so chaotic my childhood that I knew I had to do the opposite. So everything was the opposite of what happened in my childhood. So for instance, like the minute I got them, when we moved into a place and we were in that the same place,
I was like, you're not moving around. You're going to be in the same home, and this is going to be your bedroom, and you're going to put It's going to sound like the smallest things, but I was like, you get to put posters on the wall because for me, no wall ever had anything on it because I didn't know how long I was going to be there. So it was important that they knew that that was their room.
It just I you know, I didn't I got hit because we you know, we were spanked and beat and so for them, I was like, there's I'm never going to there's always going to be a conversation, you know, Like it wasn't gentle parenting, so I wasn't like why do you feel this way? It was still stern. I was still stern dad, but it was like I'm going to talk to you, you know, you're you're eleven years old, so I can have a conversation with you. Do you
understand the impact of the decision. Do you understand what's going on? And now do you understand there's a consequence. The consequence is I'm taking this. You're going to be in your room, You're not going anywhere, and these are things are going to happen. And so and now, like I with my kids, like they're not fearful of me because they never got hit by me. They never they were never screamed at in that way, you know what
I mean? Like it, So I just did the opposite of what I had how I was treated, and it healed them while also helping me to understand how to heal.
So interesting how your journey taught you so much about how you didn't want to be I think a lot of people have that you provided them with that structure and that discipline that's so vital to being a parent, but also the acceptance and the love and the communication and encouragement. Yeah, that's a really important balance. It's because you don't want to lean too hard on either direction. Yeah, you want to incorporate both of those, all of those things.
Agreed Yeah, having them feel safe enough to talk to me was like the was paramount because I never felt safe enough, Yeah, talk to my parents and my childhood, like I could never open up to them about anything I was feeling or going through it.
I saw the episode where you and Jason talked on your show about overcoming his struggle with addiction, and that traumatic experience that you went through finding him and learning about his addiction probably the one time when you didn't he wasn't communicative with you about what was going on with him.
Yeah, Yeah, that was hard. So during the pandemic, I found my son overdosed, and I guess, so this is what the problem is that I've talked about this for I put my child in a box because he was the good child that I never had to worry about. Jason has always been the responsible child. He's always been. I could count on him to be where he said he was going to be at the time he said he was going to be. When he was in high school.
He could stay out a little later because I knew that he wasn't doing anything like he's always been that. And his brother Chris was always the one that I had to pay a little bit more attention to it, like who I had to focus on a little bit more. And because I put Jason in that box, it didn't allow me to see any signs of him having an addiction, because you know, when he slept in a little bit later, I was like, well, it's just because he's working hard. I would fill in the blank for him because I
put him in a box. And I realized how harmful that was, not allowing my child, or period for human beings, not allowing human beings to be holistic that you put them in a box of like, this is who you are, and now anything you do, I'm going to fill in the blank because I've already made my decision that this
is who you are. And that's why I think a lot of us miss signs of when someone is hurting, depress, maybe having suicidal ideations, is because we've already put them in a box said, oh, oh that's my strong friend, they can handle everything. Oh that's the friend who always shows up for you always. You put them in their box and now you're not going to see anything but that. And that's what I did with Jason, So he had was not dealing with the pandemic at all. He wasn't
dealing with it. He felt isolated, felt alone, even though like we talked every day and everything else, and he was living with his girlfriend. I still put him in a box where I was like he could handle this, Like he's handling this, he's going great. And it just got worse and worse. And the only reason I found out is because he was supposed to catch a flight to his mother's back to Houston to be with his mom,
and he missed the flight. The driver was in front of his apartment and they couldn't find he didn't come out, and I went over there upset.
Because he thought he was just sleeping.
Yeah. I was like, I was like, Okay, now this is being irresponsible. I know it's a pandemic, but like, there's a flight that's been paid for, car service has been paid for. You said you wanted to go to your mom, like, So I went over there like angry and then walked in and saw the door a jarred and like him fased down in his cat's cat litter, and just was I mean, it was devastating. It was one of the hardest things that I ever saw in my life.
I bet that just turned your world upside down, side down, especially because you thought she was the one that could handle it and was handling it.
I know, not anymore, not anymore Like I. After that moment, I did a reevaluation of every person in my life who I put in a box, and that goes from sisters to coworkers who I was like, I mean everyone. I just I realized there were so many people that unconsciously I had already fined who they were, and I erased all those definitions and said, no more defining you.
I'm going to allow you to be yourself without any definition, which is going to allow me to truly see you and again hear you, really hear you, and be there for you.
I think that that is such a great message that you sort of took stock and reassessed your friendships and your relationships, but even just people on the street. You know, we put people in boxes all day long, every day. Yeah, and nobody knows what anybody's really dealing.
With exactly exactly, And so if you want to get to know what they're dealing with, you know, first don't put them in that box. Secondly, let them know, like we talked about earlier, that your space to be there to really hear them and be there for them and listen and then do like I said before, you have
two ears, listen more than you're talking. That has helped my relationships tremendously in my life because now I'm getting to see people and be there for people in ways that I wasn't before because they were they were this or that.
I mean, I can you being an expert when it comes to providing guidance in these areas for other people. And then to have this happen in your own life, I can imagine all of the emotions that you must have been going through.
Yeah. I think the thing was the biggest emotion was that came through the first thought is that when I got Jason, I promised his mom that I would keep him safe. That was my biggest promise. I said, I'll keep him safe. Don't worry, I'll keep because you know, like I said again, like, it was a big decision for her for her to hand over her son. Yeah, and inadvertently I was a stranger. Even though we were kids as friends, I mean friends as kids, I was
a stranger. It was ten years later and it was a big decision and so I was like don't worry. That's why I stay close. And so that parent guilt of like I didn't keep him safe. I didn't. I didn't keep him safe. I didn't give him the tools. I didn't give him something. And I think that rap that that that rattled me for a long time, like I didn't do it. I didn't have make ship runs of my family. Like my father was an addict in my twenties, I was an addict. I I loved drinking
and I love cocaine. And when I was in my twenties and so and I thought that I had broken that cycle because we had such transparent conversations about drugs. And what I didn't realize is that I talked to him about how bad the drugs were, but I didn't talk to him about how easy they can come into your life. And that was a conversation I realized, Like the conversation was always like it was so bad, I was in a dark space. But I didn't realize I didn't tell him that when I started drugs, I wasn't
in a dark space. I was in a happy space. I was with friends. Like the first time I drank and did cocaine, I wasn't in a dark space. I wasn't like depressed. On some corner, I was at a nightclub looking really cute and some friend was like, do you want to bump girl? And I was like, I've never done it, but sure, Like I was in a happy place, and I didn't explain that to him. Is that these vices can come into your life at some of your happiest moments because your guard is down and
because you feel invincible. And then what happens is that once you've let it in, now the darkness inside of you that you might be keeping out of bay is now going to start growing because you're feeding it with these vices. And that's what happened to him. It's the beginning of the pandemic. He's having fun with his girlfriend and his friends and he's like, we've got this, but
wasn't processing the emotions that he was feeling. And now I've tried a drug because we're we're twenty and we're having fun, and now it's turned into another and now I'm depressed, and now it's getting darker and darker, and I'm doing more to try to find that first feeling that I had on that first day. And one of the things that I've now learned is I'm having conversations to help people to understand the dangers of drugs. I
talk more about like that first day, it's probably you're happy. Yeah, that's the time that you have to be most aware is when you're happy and when right.
I wouldn't people don't think that. People what you think of someone starts an addiction or drug addiction or drinking addiction, that they're in a low place and there don't know where to turn.
Every story is different, obviously, but mijority of people I have talked to or I have helped or I have counseled. They are with friends, they are in a club, at a party, they are feeling good, they are it was exciting. It wasn't some dark alley moment you know, it gets can get there for people. It's always something fun and like new and like, oh my gosh, are we trying this? Are we going to do this? Are we having a shot? Are we're having this drug? And that's when you have
to be more aware. And so what I try to tell younger people now especially is like when you're the most happiest and those endorphins are running in you, is when you have to then be really conscious of like, this is the moment I have to say no, because there's something that might be darker laying underneath that hapiness that you haven't focused on, that those drugs are going to trigger. And so this is where you really have to be paying attention. And this is where friend groups
have to say to each other. When we're our happiest is when we really have to protect each other. That protecting your happiness statement takes a bigger like takes on a new way when you're like in our happiest, we really have to protect each other because that's when we're most vulnerable to getting the shitty man that comes in our life. Most happy is when we're most susceptible to that drug coming in that Like, like every shitty relationship I've ever had, I was in the happy.
Space when it started.
Yeah, I was like I was like, oh my gosh, he is so amazing. I love Like he's so right now, it's so exciting we're meeting up. Everyone is that. And so like what I'm learning now is that protecting your happiness is more of a job than we actually tell people. Like, in those moments of happiness is you have to really
say hold on. I know this is exciting right now, but what if and this is not Debbie Downer, but what if how are we going to protect your happiness and how are you going to still spot the red flags the things that are dangerous in the happiness because those thedorphins are going to make you not see it right. And that's it. That's my soapbox about happiness. Sorry.
Well, it's an interesting perspective and something I think people should think about. So it's good that you're bringing awareness to that. I just commend how you and your son have been so open about this. These struggles in your own personal struggles that I heard about in your memoir has sobriety you think brought you and your son closer or formed a new and different kind of bond that you never would have had.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, sure, like we were. I mean, our communication has always been open, but now like there's nothing left to hide, you know, there's nothing left to hide, There's nothing that because now we've made it through the dark, there's nothing he could do or say that he knows that I would ever leave him or abandon him, and so part of his fear of not telling me was that he thought how I would react, And now he
knows that I will always react in love. And I think that has allowed us to get closer because now he's not afraid to tell me if something happens, because I think most children don't share because they're afraid that they're not going to get a reaction of love. And now Wow knows no matter what, when I find out you're doing something that I don't approve of, I reacted with love. I love you through this. I'm going to love you. We're going to support you. It's all love.
Ever a scolding, never a bad moment.
I mean that's so hard as a parent though, in the moment when something happens and you see your kid making a bad decision, is it's really really hard to take a beat and just remember that you want to lead with love and understanding. Yeah, so you don't sever that relationship.
You know what comes in my mind? I always sing this in myself all the time. You know that song I'm my young soul. I came to this strange We're hoping you remember that song from back in the day.
No, not at all.
I'm saying I'm not a good singer. It's okay, but it's about like being a new soul coming into this world.
Can you hear it in your head?
I have to find this now because I want you to hear this. This is the song. The sound familiar to all, so I can't do this strange.
Yes, I completely recognize it.
So in this song, she just talks about being a young soul. And now since I came here, I'd just been making every mistake possible, and I just wish that everyone could remember that I'm just a young soul. And I keep I sing that to myself while I'm always like, well, you're young soul this strange world.
Yeah, you got to remember that because they don't know.
They don't know, and so that's my little thing. Thanks for letting me find that.
Stupid of course, I wanted you to finish that moment for yourself. But I know the song now, so thank you. I do love that song. Yeah, you and your son co wrote children's books together.
Yes, we have two. One it's called I'm Perfectly Designed, which just reminds people that you're perfectly designed, no matter how you look, where you're from, you're perfectly designed and to embrace and love yourself. And then the second one is I'm okay to feel, which is important to like tell young boys that it's okay to feel your feelings. And yeah, you know, and so I'm proud of like to have written two books with my boy. It's like amazing.
Yeah, I just embarked on a business with my middle daughter, and there's something so rewarding, like you share that time together, but you also see them developing these skills and just like blossoming.
It's wild. That's the same feeling. I'm like, this is just amazing. Like we also, he and I have just been the process. We just sold our first television show to a network together. Yeah, I'm so excited. I mean, like, you know this there's a process, so you know, not easy when it will make it to air, that whole thing,
you know. So I haven't talked about it, but watching him write and become he's turning into this brilliant writer, which is like he was already a great writer growing up in high school and everything else, but to see it like turning into like books and now a show, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, you're like, you're
like brilliant. I read his words and I'm like, I was on a call the other day and he was sitting on the couch over there and and he heard me struggling to find the words to say, and he just said it out loud, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is our relationship now, Like my son is this brilliant wordsmith and now he just knows how to give dad the word. And I was like, I'm just I couldn't believe it.
I mean, I'm getting like emotional because you didn't know you were a dad and now your dad, and you're an amazing dad and you strive to be even better and you really recognize the glory in it and the struggles in it, and you share all of that so openly. If that's what it's all about. We learn from you because of you. Yep, Yeah, amazing. You talk a lot about boundaries, and I know that that's not easy for
a lot of people setting boundaries and keeping boundaries. What would you say, just really quickly, what are some good steps to creating boundaries in your life? Like what do you need to tell yourself in order to make those boundaries?
Well, First of all, most people are unclear on what they want in their life. So before you start setting boundaries that you're not going to actually keep or enforce, you need to write down what it is you want out of life and what do you deserve, What do you want and what do you deserve? And this is a practice I've been doing forever, and I try to tell people consistently, like, don't have it up here rattling around. Write it down where you can see it and reread it,
because it's important for you to understand. The reason this boundary is important is because I want this for my life and I deserve this for my life. And when you have those in front of you and you are aware of them, it's harder for somebody to break that boundary, overstep that boundary because you're not going to allow them. When I know that I deserve a paycheck at the end of two weeks because I've done this amount of work, your boss comes to you and says, oh, I can't
pay for another week, you don't just say okay. You say no, no, no, no, no, I worked, I did this. I want my money. And it's because you're clear that working hard, doing your skills, you deserve this money. And the same thing goes for like your emotional state, your mental state. When you know what you want and you deserve, no one cannot give you your money, or give you the respect, or give you the love, or give you what you deserve because you're aware of it. And so
that's the first part. As I say, I think a lot of people don't take that time to really be clear.
That's amazing, that's an amazing message for our listeners.
And then the second thing I would say, once you're clear, I would say, before you can start setting boundaries, I tell people, get your boundary bodies. And this is important things because if you never set boundaries before, it's very easy for narcissists manipulators in your life to learn how
to go around your boundaries. And so when I say get your boundary bodies, it's those people who understand equally what you want and what you deserve, who when if you have a moment where you feel weak, or you feel or you get sucked back into whatever pattern, these people are there to remind you of what you want and deserve because they've read that sheet too. And I think when you have those two things compounded, it's easy for you to set boundaries with the people in your
life and it allows you to stick with it. And boundaries who can save your life and chance?
Yeah, they can. So write down what you want and what you deserve.
Yes.
I did a similar thing with in my therapy, which was I wrote down my non negotiables.
Yep.
It's very similar.
Yeah yeah, and then get to.
Define it yep. Get your boundary buddies, bbeses. I don't want to not talk about your talk show. I know we're running over a little bit, but let's just briefly talk about this new season of Coromo, premiering September sixteenth, right, Yes, yeah, is this season two or three?
Season three?
Three?
Yes? Wow, it's been exciting. I shoot, so the syndication game is I shoot six to eight episodes a day, so it's it's it's a grind. My ship is different because I don't have celebrities on, so I help everyday people. And the thing about the genre that I'm in is that it's unfortunately, over the past couple of years, has got a bit of a bad rap because people have
been screaming, running off, acting crazy. And one of the things that I'm most proud of is that, like I give out therapy on my show, like anybody who comes and opens themselves up. I pay for therapy. I you know, make the network pay for therapy, which they've never done. You know. I always make sure that we bring it back down to real conversations, real emotions. We're getting through it,
like there's real healing, and it's it's, it's it's. It's been a journey of like rebranding this job and helping people to see like I'm not here for the solution. I'm here to tell you that you can be in a better relationship with your mother, your father, your sister, your brother, or your boyfriend and your husband and your wife. And it's been great because the audience is receiving it, which I'm just wanted. They're like please, yes, So it's
been a great thing. So yeah, we're going to season three, and I just know that, like this is a long game. Like you know, I think about like I think about some of the people I look up to, like Oprah. Her first seven seasons was not what we know about Oprah right now. Right people look back at early season Oprah, they're like, oh, that's that's not the show that we
ended up loving in the end. You know, you know, like there was moments where Oprah used to wheel out wagons of fat and have you know baby Mama's fighting on her show. And then you know, gradually she allowed people to see her heart. And so I'm just excited for the continued growth and for people to continue seeing me infuse me and what my whole life is about, which is helping people into this show.
Yeah, it's a perfect place for you. I'm very excited for you. You've shared your life, You've shared your ups or downs, the lessons that you've learned and challenges that you've faced, and you use that.
To reach people trying that's the goal.
And help them through those big life moments.
That's the goal. That is the goal.
Sister, Share, Share, Share What a gift you are?
Your gift?
Okay, two last questions. When it all ends, what do you hope the world remembers about Coromo.
That I hope that they just know that my only job on hair is to help people feel seen. That's all I want. That's the only thing. Like if I die tomorrow, I feel pretty good that people know that, Like I've been on this world to help you feel seen, because I don't believe this life is for me. I believe that all these experiences I've been through is for me to help other people, because my life is an up and down road culture that I'm like, I'm like, God gave me this to help other people to be
for a reason. There's there's no reason that the gay guy became a dad this way unless it was to help.
People and ended up on the platforms that you're.
That you're able to reach this for someone else.
It was all meant to be. Yeah, But before I let you go, Caromo, what was your last I choose me moment?
Ooh. I had a really important relationship in my life and because that person could not be a partner to me in a way that I needed them to be a partner. And I chose me because I decided that what I want and hope for in this in relationships, going forward, business, personal, is for someone to be able to show up equally. And so I said, if it's not equal, I'm not doing it, And so I chose me, which was beautiful.
It is so beautiful. You are beautiful. Thank you for I love you.
Love.
I'll see you around, yes, you will.
Thank you so much for everything.
Thank you. Wow. Okay, Caromo is so incredible. I just I love him. I just walked away from that conversation feeling so empowered to revisit some boundaries in my life and to just live an organic, authentic, open life like him. Thank you Karamo for coming on. You are so amazing. I cannot wait for the new season of his talk show and the new season of Queer Eye. Such great work he's doing. As we continue to choose ourselves. Each week,
I want you to think about boundaries. We talk a lot about that in this conversation, and I want you to really ask yourself. Are you having healthy boundaries with the people in your life? Are you having to set boundaries when it comes to your work life? After you think on that, if you feel unbalanced, I want to challenge you and empower you to start following some of those instructions that Karamo gave us today. What do you want?
Be clear? What do you deserve? Setting boundaries helps make sure that your needs are met and that you can show up the way you want to show up. Without them in place, it can be very hard to be the best version of ourselves, and I know it might not be easy, but this week I want you to try and define and set one boundary with that intention. Thanks for listening to I Choose Me. You can check out all our social links. In our show notes, you
can learn all about Karamo. You can rate us, review us, and be sure to use the hashtag I Choose Me. I will be right here next week. I hope you will choose to be here too,