As a listener of how I work.
You've hopefully picked up a few tips on this show to help you work better?
But do you want more?
And maybe in a book form, because let's face it, books are the most awesome thing on the planet. Well, now you can. In my new book, time Wise, I uncover a wealth of proven strategies that anyone can use to improve their productivity, work, and lifestyle. Time Wise brings together all of the gems that I've learned from conversations with the world's greatest thinkers, including Adam Grant, Dan Pink, Mia Friedman, and Turia.
Pitt and many many others. Time Wise is launching on.
July five, but you can pre order it now from Amantha dot com. And if you pre order time Wise, I have a couple of bonuses for you. First, you'll receive an ebook that details my top twenty favorite apps and software for being time wise with email, calendar, passwords, reading,
cooking ideas, and more. You will also get a complementary spot in a webinar that I'm running on June twenty nine, where I will be sharing the tactics from time Wise that I use most often, and also some bonus ones that are not in the book that I use and love. Hop onto Amantha dot com to pre order. Now, how often do you think about trust and what it really means? Do you trust your boss, your colleagues, or the company
that you work for? And how would your day unfold if that trust wasn't there, or if you didn't have the trust of your customers or your clients. Trust is something that Francis Fry sees as the foundation of everything. I was lucky enough to be in Vancouver in twenty nineteen to see Francis deliver her now famous Ted talk on bringing trust back into Uber and it was a game changer for me. Francis is a Harvard Business School professor and together with Anne Morris, has written several best
selling books about trust and leadership. So how do these world authorities on trust go about building it into their own day to day lives.
My name is doctor amanthe Immer.
I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this is how I work, a show about how to help.
You do your best work.
So Frances and Ann are not only partners at work, they are also partners in life. And every year they go through an annual New Year's reflection process, and I wanted to know what it looked like.
So we and when I say we, I mean I look for any excuse for group reflection, which is my idea of a good time, and it may not be shared by my better half. So New Year's is such a powerful moment for all the obvious reasons, but Monday can also be a time for reflection. So I do try to drag you, Francis into these conversations more frequently than just the turn of the year. But it is what we end up doing, and it has become a nice ritual that involves, like you know, swing by a
local pub. But it is to just free form reflect on what is it that we want to achieve in the coming year.
And it's what's beautiful about it is that it has no rear view mirror. There is no accountability for the last year. It is only what is our ambition and our greatest hopes for the upcoming year, and.
The questions like is there a structure that guides you in doing that forward planning?
Quite importantly, there's no. There's no shared structure. So usually each year we you know, as you're writing as structure emerges for each of us, but there's no overlap in the structure, and then we sort out.
On righte is parallel play. So we'll sit down, we'll write at the same time, and then whichever one of us has moved to go first will go first and narrate the list.
And that's a really important part of the process is then to describe it to each other. Yeah, and in the description we're also allowed and encouraged to ask each other questions, clarifying questions, contextual questions. That's definitely part of it too.
So is it more like a story or a narrative as opposed to hear is a list of things for the ya?
Yes it is. It is, But it's a comprehensive narrative because it will cover, you know, in years, it covers health, wealth, family, ambition, you know, like big small, want to go out for walks? More like it can be anything on it, but the context is very important. To Anne. Left to my own, I could have a crisp list, but within no list is crisp.
Francis has never forgiven me for springing on her the night before that. I thought we should write our own vows for our wedding the morning of. I keep trying to give myself more lead time in the retail, just willing in the retelling of the story. Was it the morning of?
It might have been the morning the pen you had just bought and a notebook you had just bought, and I was looking for the hotel pen and the hotel scrap of paper. I felt under enormous pressure, which you delivered.
I rose to delivered. Yes, you wrote it was the first real test of our marriage. Four minutes in.
Wow, that is such high pressure. I feel like I took weeks to refine mine. But I'm divorced. So you know, you guys are winning on that front. So now we're in May. So we're five months after you've gone through this knees planning session. How is that narrative evolving into the year, Like is it matching closely?
What are the things that are aligned and what do you do with the things that are not?
So it is a vehicle to have a very direct conversation around what is important to each of us. And we get to say in this ritual, what is important to you? What is important to me?
Is right?
That is that is the car In response, I think where it shows up six months later is I have no idea what I wrote and I've never revisited it. Francis, I think that's probably true for you as well.
Yes it's true.
But we have had variations on that shorter variations. Let's ritualize variations on that conversation subsequently as new information presents itself. And I think that to me, that's the value of keeping that muscle warm. And what happens on January first is a recommitment to use the muscle and then I think we probably have some version of that conversation monthly
for maybe more. But what is important to you, know, and it is it is often that is the frame of this is what has value to me now, and this is the new insight that I have into it. And for instance, is the first person I want to share that with. Obviously she's my wife, but I think also because that's a dialogue we've been having now for sixteen.
Years, Francis, a lot of people might have come across you from your work around trust, and I would love to know if you, when you're first meeting someone that you have to build trust with, how do you go about doing that?
Yeah, so I am, and I'm I really like to build trust quickly. It's much easier for me to build it quickly if it's doing it over time. I'm not very good at the slow gear. So I'm either on or off or my two preferred states. And so I like to reveal the real me. So I'm just I just open the door, you know, in a disarming way, sharing something about how I'm doing or what I'm thinking about.
Like what's an example of that?
Yeah, so I will. I can't remember the last time I met someone who I didn't have a story about Anne or my family in it. So I am. I am more personal about my family life than almost any other person.
I know.
It comes up in every conversation, and usually you have to know people to do it, not me. I start with it. It also calms me down. It puts me in a great mood to do it, So I think that's the It's usually that or if i'm you know, if I've just gone through something, and usually you will. I would tell the next person I speak to about that, like I'm a very.
And you confess.
So I grew up in a very strongly Catholic family. Confession was a very big part of it, and I have kept that part of Catholicism. I confess everything to anyone, and so it's to the next person I talk to. That's who I'm doing it. So that's actually a crisper way of doing it. That takes care of the authenticity part of trust. If there's three parts to it, authenticity, logic, and empathy. I'm keenly aware of the other person in the conversation, and I'm always thinking, how can I be
of service to you? Like what, what are what? What's the underlying way that I can be helpful? And and that's the empathy part. And then my brain, I can't shut off the pattern seeking parts of it and the making, the sense making, and that's the logic. So it comes quite naturally to me when it's a stranger or a new person, particularly if I'm not the one who's asking for something. I'm so clumsy when I'm asking for something.
But when some were meeting, I just quickly find out how I can be helpful to them, And that's a really helpful orientation for me.
When you were first brought into Uber to help rebuild trust? Is that an accurate way? It's sort of a statement, maybe what were some of the very first things that you did to help that process.
One is by talking about it in a way that didn't make it feel like it was a third rail, right, So you know, I remember the first senior meeting I was in with the ce I only overlapped with the CEO for two weeks, but I was in a meeting with the CEO and the rest of his direct reports. And in the meeting, people were texting in the meeting A number one, B number two. They were texting each other in the meeting about what other people were saying.
Now that had just become common nature. So there was like, so everyone was excluding, everyone was excluded. Now you could have had it, but it was there was no empathy in the room, even though the people actually liked one another.
There was the structure. So it was just like having you know, when you're new to a place, you get to put on the glasses where you see what's you know, interesting, And it was willing to share my new glasses with those that were already there because they no longer realized it.
And then when I.
Described in the way I just described it to you.
They were like, I love that example, interesting habit. I love that example of for instances, because what we'll often say when we work with people on empathy as shorthand is to be present in the presence of others. And so that moment, first of all, everyone is distracted by their devices. Everyone is distracted by their devices, which is the number one empathy killer in the world right now,
and we're all guilty of it. But also the erosion of safety in the fact that there's a conversation happening about everyone in the room at the same time, and so we have no choice but to be self distracted
in that moment because we have to protect ourselves. And so unraveling that scene, which I know you did right away in your work there, but unraveling that scene which is happening, by the way, first of all all over Valley, but in many organizations that kind of behavior has become totally normalized, and it's it.
The amount that it holds the team back is mind boggling. So people are like, oh, yes, we do that. I'm like you, so, oh yes, we underperform by orders of magnitude, Like that's what that's what we're acknowledging. So we can choose to continue to underperform or we can make a small and kind adjustment.
So what happened when you brought that to their attention.
Oh, at first they did just what you did, right, They they laugh at it. But it's then it's important to put processes in place. So I was one of the things that Travis asked me to do is to facilitate the senior team, and so I run the meetings. So we just in the beginning, we just had to say all technology gets put over there. So we just had over in the couch area in the table area, and it totally freaked people out. And I was like, we just have to learn how to be free of
it because the tethers are too tight. And then we would tell any of the assistance if you have to come in and get someone because people were And then over time people could be like, well, I really want to take notes on my computer. Okay, well we have to be away from it for a while, so we have paper and pens and then you could slowly bring it back in. But it needed to be a hard a hard cut in the beginning, just to feel what it was like. And I have to tell you it. Also,
the meetings became better. They went we went through materials faster and deeper as a result, because when you're interacting with only distracted people and only people who are feeling unsafe, that takes forever and you hardly get anywhere. So it really improved speed and quality quite monumentally.
And you mentioned that devices one of the biggest issues we have around building empathy. How how do you bring that insight into your in line lives.
Yeah, that's a great question. These devices are so seductive and they are meant to be and so I think putting up strict boundaries. For me, putting up strict boundaries is the only way to go. So I never bring it into our bedroom. I never bring it onto the floor where I'm trying to sleep. Uh, you know meals. You know, all devices have to be away from the table for me to be present. I think I've removed apps from my phone that are more distracting. I just
think that the it's the we are. I am in the phase of a relationship with my devices where prohibition is the only thing that is working right now. But other people are at a healthier place with.
Them and and for me, I so I don't use my devices very often at all. So I'm never on zoom and on something else. I'm always there. I check my email at most two times a day, but probably once every other day is a more natural rhythm. So and I learned that lesson from the late Clay Christiansen, when I once asked him, how are you so much more productive than everyone else? And he said, I check email twice a day, so I'm not distracted by it.
And then I made the maybe like five years ago, I made the parallel to consumption of news and the intra day consumption of news. I haven't seen that be helpful to anyone, and so I no longer do intra day consumption of news. I would for a while I had to go cold turkey so and would just narrate whatever it was important.
The capital is being attacked Francis by.
Our own people, and now I can check in. But I don't check the news every day. I certainly don't do it intraday. Those were that's for me. I've never been very late to the social media landscape, and so I don't have any kind of They're designed to be addictive, but I've never gotten that far up the participation curve for that to be an issue. But I like to have total blockout of those things so that I can focus on either my work, the television program I want
to watch. Like I consume a lot of alternate things to spark to spark my thinking. But it's almost never. It's almost never the traditional way of doing it. And you'd think that I was hard to get in contact with. I'm not that hard. It turns out we're not checking email more than once a day because we need to be in people need to be in contact with us. It's something much deeper than that, because I'm plenty easy to be in contact with.
No, we're just trying to find out am I loved or am I not loved? What about now? I am I love?
Now? I go downstairs and ask my wife, you.
Have a wonder. It's been super provocative in the best sense for me to watch you set these boundaries. I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I'm not as far gone as some of the people, some of our loved ones. But but I think you're you have you have said an excellent and challenging model for me. I was definitely overconfident in my multitasking. I thought it did not come at a price. And even small experiments in
scaling that back had pretty pretty profound payoffs. And so that that's what has spurred me to come closer to the light where I see you standing.
I'm as productive as I'll ever be because I've trimmed out all of the multitasking. So this is it.
It doesn't get any to go in. So and what do you do with your emailment?
Because that it's exactly that. It's like checking to say, does anyone love me right?
Now?
Right?
And then do the right people love me right? If you get certain, if you hit scale, then you got to go then you got to go to quality. It's never ending. So I mean, you know what is the structural solution? That's hard work? You know, that's that is the hard work around. Why am I seeking external affirmation which the world has turned into all of these incredible devices.
But I think if you if you don't want to do, if you don't want to work that hard, then you're then you're in setting up setting up boundaries and running experiments on.
How you're great at running the experiments and.
Learning, like let's try like how does it feel to take Twitter off my phone? That feels? That feels good? That feels good. Uh And and and that's I mean we in the work that we do with individuals and organizations, a lot of it is encouraging people to just run experiments on their lives, on their leadership, on their ways of working, you know, just to bring that kind of can do, joyful, curious energy to all aspects of their lives.
And our relationships with our device. For some of us, it's the most devoted, meaningful relationship that we have right now. We're sleeping with our devices, we're caressing them, we're checking in with them constantly, and I think that, you know, there's a lot of great experimentation that can be done around that relationship.
So, and what are a couple of the most powerful experiments that you've run in your own life in racing times?
Oh beyond devices anything.
Oh my gosh, this is such a good question for Antie does them every week?
Well?
So, yeah, I don't know that we have the amount of time to have this conversation fully. But one sandbox that has made a big difference in my life is to be very deliberate about my own bioorhythms. So when I do different kinds of work and now and now people just refer We should give them different names, but people just refer to my morning brain and my afternoon brain. It's five point thirty in the afternoon right now, I've been up for a good like thirteen plus hour. We're
getting close to my bedtime. That anything coherent is coming out of my mouth that could be a benefit to your listeners is astonishing. But I did learn. I started to be very protective of the morning. I started to be very deliberate about what were the what was the kind of work I was doing in the morning, what was the kind of work I was going to do in the afternoon, And I redesigned my schedule around that idea. Yeah, and it was really transformational.
So people all over the world are trying to reserve morning brain slots for Ann. I think it's the most beautiful, intense It's like breath taking otherworldly. You can only get it from plank Am plank Am, and it's usually like four thirty to six thirty am like those And so that's precious. You got to reserve ahead.
Right, and there are some scarcity dynamics at work here. But then the next experiment is can I extend that that morning brain slot and what will it take and you know, when when should I exercise? What should I
be eating? When should I go to bed? You know, and with these things, you know, the motivation to kind of do those things well when it's general for me was not that helpful, like oh, be a more righteous person, go on this walk, not helpful, but extend that like a few hours and maybe even beyond like that, that was super motivating. And so things like meditation, timing of exercise, you know, sleep hygiene, and you know, the whole category
of sleep hygiene. One of the experiments Francis and I started running was I'm going to not get her name, but there's a wonderful reporter from ABC who just published a book on sleep. One of the recommendations she makes in her book is, when you're going to bed at night, before you fall asleep, write down every problem you have, anything that and the idea is anything that you would possibly be thinking about were you to wake up in
the middle of the night. But she really pushes you to go deep, like any grocery, like anything, write it all down on like one half of a page, and on the other app put the next thing you are going to do an immediate next step you're going to take on every single one of these problems, and.
You don't take those steps, but you have to write down the first step, and then that calms your brain down. And so this has free it's.
I'm gonna put I'm gonna I'm gonna tighten that a little bit because this is the intuition. It trains your brain that you solve problems in the daytime because what and I was getting really stuck on this. I would wake up after a couple hours of sleep, my brain would be firing and I would try to start solving problems, and then my brain started to think that's when I solve problems, which is, you know, at two in the morning.
And this ritual and her data is really fun because people think, oh, I'm going to now have to do this for the rest of my life. She said it took her two or three weeks of doing this and her brain was retrained. So we are. This is an experiment that Francis and I are in the middle of right now. I think we're maybe four or five days into it.
And not let anyone think that I run experiments. I don't, so I don't think about exercise dieting, Like, I don't think about any of that stuff. But what I do is I let Anne amortize the great things she learned, and so once she cycles through, she'll share with me the one to try. I don't have to read the book. She just tells me the thing, and I happily do it. So I'm not an experimenter. I'm a borrower of best practices.
I think that sends very wise Francis.
Now, and you do a lot of work with leaders and coaching leaders, I'd love to know what what are the very first questions that you're asking.
A leader to get a feel for what you're working with.
So I do a lot of work with the highs and lows. You know, when are you at your best? What are those circumstances? What are the circumstances surrounding when you don't feel like you're at your best and you're contributing fully. I think, again, a lot to learn in those edges. I think emotions are data, So what are you feeling? You know, we start in the workplace, but you know, really the conversation I seek to have with
people about it, what are you know? What are the lives that they want to live, and so how do they feel as they move through those lives? I think is really important information. What what is a legacy that you want to have? You know, how are you defining meaning? How are you defining success?
So and I'm going to bring my confessional nature to you. So, So, you had two coaching calls today and in both cases the people you were coaching ended up in tears, Which isn't that uncommon of an outcome for you? I mean that it's actually quite startlingly high. What leads to that?
Like?
What what is that about? And these are good tiers? But how does that happen?
That?
That's such a great question, Francis, do you want a job on how?
I No, I don't. I just confess, So I answer, but I'm just confessing. I know that happened today and it would be wonderful.
Yes, well, I love the question. It's there. They were good tiers and not that there are any bad tears.
In fact, I would argue. But one of the great privileges of this work is that I get to have a conversation with people about what matters to them, and I get to when I'm doing my job, I get to create a space where they can really get in touch with the best version of themselves, and sometimes that version of themselves they have not given that person permission to come out and play and come out and work, and come out and be part of the world sometimes for a long time, and that that's the space for
him or her or them to come out and play. I think can come with a lot of powerful emotions, particularly if they've been hanging back for a while.
We will be back soon with and talking about how one of the keys to her coaching work with leaders is making it less about them and more about those around them.
If you're looking.
For more tips to improve the way that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving three to interesting research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I Work dot co. I know that one of the things you think about with Lee doesn't coach them through is making it less about.
Them and more about those around them. Can you talk about that?
Yeah? I think, particularly as people move up in the hierarchy, the gravitational pull of self distraction can get really strong. It's almost like climbing a cliff and you look down, so suddenly you're confronted with the stakes, but you're also confronted with the fact that there are lots of people paying attention to what you say and what you do, and that whole ride can be very self distracting. So some of what we do in our work is give
people permission to look outward. Sometimes the metaphor we use is look away from the mirror and look out the window at what the people around you need. Often that's a very relieving message, because again, the best version of us is a very I believe, very service oriented version, and it is eager to get out there and be
of service to the world. But the way leadership has been defined, the way it's been done and practice, the world's obsession with individual leaders and you know the succession story and the palace intrigue, and you know the way we talk about leadership that the stories we tell, they're very focused on the individual leader, when in fact, where the real action is is what's happening in the rest of the palace, the rest of the building.
And so we.
Invite people to reframe the work that they do when they are practicing leadership in that way, and that can be a powerful pivot.
One of the great things that I've learned from n On along this line is that you might have a hierarchy a management position, but nobody's a leader twenty four to seven. So even if I'm in a hierarchical position, I'm only in the act of leadership when I am centered on others. And when I'm self distracted, which you have to be put the oxygen mask on yourself, you are not participating in the act of leadership. And the separation of leaders and leadership can be super powerful to people.
Oh yeah, I mean just so that I think that insight Francises can be so helpful and practical. Just this idea that leadership is a is an action, it's a practice. It is not an identity. Uh, And it's you know, you're you're leading when you are focused on setting the people around you up for success. And there are other things that you need to do for your own security and survival and happiness and well being, and those those
things are valuable too, but it's not leadership. And that that message has also been helpful to a lot of the people we work with.
Now invite your roles.
You would spend a lot of time giving people great advice and listening. And I'm wondering for you guys, over the courses of your career out what stands out as some of the best career advice you've both received and Francis, maybe do you want to take this one first?
Yeah, Well, by far, the best career advice I received is from Anne, so I might if I ever have disproportionate success, I get twenty four to seven of this, so it's so fair. But I'll tell you some of the things. I mean. And helped me understand the window mirror metaphor and that to be other distracted. I had intuition about it, but she really helped me understand that you met me at the trust. Well, Anne and I worked on that talk. I happen to be the one
that delivered it. So I would work overnight and she would work in the morning, and then I would work overnight. And what I learned is that the purpose of a first draft is to be embarrassed by it by the second draft. I did not know that, And I mean, and then I thought the first trap Okay, well, the second draft, let's poor liquid svent on that, and then she would do another and another and another, and I
it just blew my mind on that part. So it's the looking out the window of others and that think that writing is a really wonderful form of thinking. And I just always thought I was a bad writer, so I didn't participate in it very much. And it has just unleashed my ability to think and improved my ability to communicate, even though I still communicate with shapes more than words. I hear it like in that Ted talk, I had to draw shapes on the on the blackboard.
But I think those two things really the mirror and the and the revision of ideas, and that that's and that writing is a great form of thinking. Love that.
How about you, Anne.
I'm gonna I'm going to answer this as a category advice of advice with the headline of don't believe everything you think. And I'll add a little texture to that which so I am an authenticity wobbler, an empathy anchor authenticity wobbler in our a lexicon. When I was starting companies in a previous career, I spent a lot of time raising money from venture capitalists, a task at which I was terrible in the beginning. And back to our
conversation about trust. It is one of those conversations that is all about I mean, particularly when you're raising money for a company that does not yet exist. You are asking people to jump off a cliff with you, and so if they don't trust you even a little bit, there's no way they're taking that leap. And so in the beginning, I would, you know, get up at the
front of the room. And I was very distracted by the idea that I was a woman, and I was young, and I had never done this before, and I was queer, and I was in some rooms where no woman had been in except to like take a lunch order or
deliver a like. I was so distracted by the surroundings, and as I tried to figure out what was going wrong, I kept misdiagnosing and kept you know, confidence and swagger, and I just became more There was more and more preteenpse pretending to be the person in the front of the room that they wanted to see, which people can figure out very quick. The human animal can smell that one from a well anyway, So I figured out it
was authenticity. One of the frameworks that was very helpful to me was the Wonderful Byron Katie's for essential questions, and the idea is to identify the thought, so the you know, the thought in that room might be this is a room that doesn't value me. So the first question on the list of essential question is is it true? And your answers, of course it's true. The second question is is it really true? Jus as zooming your answer the verson one is wrong and in fact it's never
totally true. And then the questions get really fun, which is they're like, well, could the opposite be true? Could it be that you don't value the other, you don't value the people in the room, or you are undervaluing your It's not that they're undervaluing you, it's that you're undervaluing you. And let's take a look at the data. Your name seems to be on the list, like you seem to be invited to stand up at the front
of the room and take everyone's time. Somehow you've concluded that your voice is not being valued, and yet you are the only one speaking. Everyone is taking notes on what you're saying, right, So it's really fun and then the last question is really the moment of liberation. And I think this idea of freedom is what is most motivating to me in this work. Can I help get people in touch with a sense of freedom that they have not been able to give themselves up to this point.
But the moment of liberation is, well, who would you be if you weren't dragging this story around? And do you have the power to let it go? And what's on the other side of letting that story go? And it doesn't mean that there's no data to support your original story, and it doesn't mean that there's not someone in the room that's thinking, well, I really prefer a dude maybe, but that's not helpful to me, and that's
not what everybody's thinking. And that guy may be easily persuaded once I actually say something useful as opposed to getting stuck in my own head and that like, those are the sandboxes that are really fun for me. And that's part of the experimentation. Is if I'm not willing to do that work in my own life, then I cannot be helpful in facilitating that kind of work for anybody else.
That's awesome.
Now, I don't know where time is gone, but like it has and sorry, look, i'd love to know, I added Francis for people that want to reach out, get in touch, consume more.
Of your work.
What is the best way for people to do that?
For me, it's LinkedIn and it's at Francis Frye. It's a place. And if you look back at historic posts I've done, particularly over covid, I did a lot of instructional thing I just if I had thought, I tried to write, if I understood something, I tried to share it. I'm very much about democratizing education, so if I know it, I want to tell everyone else. So I would want is to see new thoughts. But also you can look in the library of things. But LinkedIn is a pretty
good place for me. I'm very good about the messages and things there excellent.
And yeah, I think LinkedIn is a is a good starting place for me too. We are not very good at promoting ourselves. We probably could frame it as promoting ourselves as opposed to just giving the people access. So that's that that's more work that we'll do. Uh now, And if we could, we could continue this conversation at five a m. And I would have a lot more at off for your listeners.
Oh gosh, I have just enjoyed this conversation so much. It's like it's it's a novelty for me to have two faithful that I'm talking to and saying again, a novelty. But oh, you're just both such joys. I wish I could just like take you home and like invite you to every dinner party that I have, Like, so thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. It's just been a joy.
It's such a.
Pleasure, such a pleasure. Yeah, delighted to have this country. We love what you're doing in the world and love.
It inspiring creativity. It's really wonderful.
Thank you.
I loved the metaphor that and uses with leaders about looking away from the mirror and looking outside through the window. There are definitely many times in my own work life where I can get caught up in myself and the impression that I'm trying to make. And I find that when I do this, like when I do this before a keynote presentation, for example, it can make me feel quite nervous. But when I remind myself that it's not about me, it's about the people that I'm there to help.
It really does help to settle my nerves and I can refocus, and I find I also get so much more energy when I shift to that servant kind of mentality.
So that is it for today.
If you are enjoying How I Work, why not hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening to this podcast from and in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to be releasing an episode every day of the work week which will have the top ten listener tips, which I've been asking you all for, So hit subscribe or follow if you would like to hear more tips that listeners like yourselves have called their favorites. How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support from Dead Set Studios.
The producer for this.
Episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you to Matt Nimba, who does the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much better than it would have otherwise.
See you next time.