You probably know that creating good habits can help make you more productive, but can habits make you happier? For me, I quit sugar seven years ago, which makes me a whole lot happier because I no longer have to worry about that awful sugar crash that followed. And my daily exercise habit definitely makes me happier too, as does an evening reading habit that I've recently started to build. But could I be doing more? Is there a way that
I could level up that happiness? And could I be making decisions in a different way to bring me even more happiness? Well, today I get to ask those very questions of my own personal happiness guru Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen is the host of the popular weekly podcast Happier with Gretchen Ruben, and she's the author of several books, including
the international bestseller The Happiness Project. After Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work, a show about how to help you do your best work. I've been a fan of Gretchen's for over a decade, and the first thing I wanted to know was what does someone who was dedicated over ten years of their life to thinking about and researching happiness do in their own life to
be happier. What are the habits in Gretchen's life that contribute most to her happiness.
Oh my gosh, I love a great habit, So I have a lot I've contributed to my happiness. I would say getting to sleep on time and waking up at the same time every day. I'm a real morning person, so I do my hardest work early in the morning, and I like it when it's kind of quiet, and so I always get up at the same time every day. I one of these people who's a super low car person. I have a crazy sweet tooth, and the way that I dealt with that was just by quitting sugar and
basically all carbs. So that's not a habit that everybody would want to follow, but that's a habit I love. I write every day. That's just to always stay in my work. That's a habit. I kiss my husband first thing, before I get out of bed in the morning, before I check my phone, or before my feet hit the ground. That makes me happy. I have a lot of habits that make me happy.
I want to ask about your writing habit and also your reading habit. Let's start with your writing habit. What does that look like? Can you set the scene as to you know, if we were watching you do that, what would we observe in terms of how you form that habit?
Well, you know, I write books, and so the rhythm of my day really depends on where I am in a book cycle. So right now I'm doing editing, so that means most of it's already written, but I'm doing editing, which tends to be like you're working on the things that aren't working. Tends to be a little bit hard, but you have stuff to work with. So it's like, say from six in the morning until like nine or ten, and I'm really focused on editing things that are really hard.
And then after that I start doing things more like doing interviews or working on a podcast episode or like things that are intellectually challenging but don't take the same level of concentration, and sort of as my day goes on, I if I can, if I have control, I will kind of do increasingly less taxing tasks. But I write every day and I read every day. For me reading. It's like my it's kind of my cubicle and my playground.
I love to read. I read for fun all the time, but then I also read a ton to give myself ideas and you know, and for research. So both of those things are are part of reading for me.
And do you have a specific method when you're reading in terms of, you know, making notes or references? What does that look like?
Well, that is a great question because actually I spend a huge amount of time with notes. And so when I read, I'll mark up a book, you know, in the if it's a library book, I do it, you know, with like sticky notes, and if it's my book, I'll just massively mark it up. And then once I'm done with the book, I'll go back and then sort of go through and take all the notes and so, like I have list of quotations, I do one Sudden's aphorisms, I have multiple documents on multiple subjects that I might
be tracking. So doing notes is really fun, but it actually does take a lot of time, and so that is part of my kind of my reading regimens, so I have to sort of work that in as well. But like that's something I would do later in the day because it's taxing, but it's not that taxing. I sort of have to figure out where it plugs into all my stuff, but I you know, it's basically copying or digesting something from it from a source.
And what about at the end of the day, do you have habits or rituals to disconnect from work or reconnect with family or anything like that.
I guess what in my habits are sort of quitting time. So I will sort of say, like, oh, in ten minutes and it's just quitting time. And I'll take ten minutes and I tidy up my office. So you know, if I got out papers, I'll put them back in a file or I'll put it back on my courtboard, and I'll throw away my trash and I'll put I get pens out. I don't know what this happens to me, but like I get pens out of my pen cup, like fifty pens that I put the pens back at
the pen cup. And I like this because you know, for most people, like for me, outer order contributes to intercolm and I find that when I just take ten minutes to clean up, it sort of clears my mind and it does act as that kind of transition, and then when I come back in in the morning, it feels like it's so much easier to sit down because I'm not finding my way through a bunch of like piles of books that I took the notes on, or you know, articles to read, or you know, just the
stuff that accumulates sweat, sweater that I took off. You know, I get I put all that stuff away. So I do like a ten minute closer every night and then and then I feel like, okay, I'm ready to call it a day.
How did you form that habit? Because I feel like there'd be a lot of people listening, going like that sounds wonderful. But for some reason, I just leave my desk a mess at the end of the day because that's the easiest thing to do.
Well, you know. So I have my four tendencies framework, and one of the things about me that I've learned is I'm an upholder in that framework, and habits tend to come pretty easily to upholders, Like that's one of the that's one of the nice things about being an up folder. There's downside, so that is one of the upsides. So that kind of thing, once I was sort of like, oh, I want to make this a habit. It wasn't that hard for me, and I will say that it's not
a particularly difficult have it. It's just ten minutes, and it's not cleaning. It's not like going through your files and deciding like what to keep. It's literally just putting things away. I find that very kind of soothing. It's like something that you can put on your to do list and cross it off right away.
I'm actually curious, what are some habits that you've tried over the years that didn't really work for you?
Okay, meditation, which I've tried twice, And of course people will tell you that like the fact that you that meditation doesn't work for you just means that you need meditation all the more. But I just have to say I've given it two solid tries. I know, I know and respect so many people who I'm friends with Dan Harris, who is the ten percent Happier app and book, and he really convinced me. My college roommate meditates for like two or three hours a day and like more if
she can squeeze it in. So I have people in my life really making a case for meditation. So I have really tried it. It's just not a tool that works for me. So I've tried meditation, gratitude journal. I was very annoyed by my gratitude journal, which apparently is not that uncommon, So that didn't work for me. What else? I used to balance on one foot in the elevator as a way to work on my post my balance, which I just kind of forgot about and got out
of the habit of it. But I do, I do think I should try to have some balance exercise for some reason. I didn't like the elevator one, but maybe some other someone. I always try to put my socks on, like you know, one fit at a time as a balanced thing. What are some other ones that didn't work for me? Usually I try ones that I think will work, so I have a pretty good hit rate, you know, because I don't try the things that don't that I don't think will work.
Well. I'm very curious about meditation and gratitude because I feel like they're two of the most commonly talked about strategies for happiness and well being.
And yeah, well let me say I'm not saying gratitude. I'm not I have other ways that I try to remind myself to be grateful, because I do think that's really important. But the like right down three things you're grateful for, like the gratitude journal, that form didn't work. So I'm not saying gratitude isn't important. I'm just saying the gratitude journal is.
A tool absolutely with gratitude. What's your current ritual habit around gratitude?
So I live in an apartment building where we have like two doors that you have to go through to get in and out of the building. So I always try to use that as like a like as a transition point to be like, oh, how happy I am to be going out into New York City, my favorite city, Or then when I'm home, Oh how happy I am to be coming home to my like cozy apartment. So I try to use sort of the forced pause of going through those two doors as a way to remind
myself to be grateful right now. For this year, for my next book, which is about the Five Cents is I've been going to the Metropolitan Museum every day, which is like so much fun when it's open if person was closed for a long time, but every time I go there also because you know, they take your temperature and then you have to like get your ticket and all that. I'm always like, oh, you know, how fortunate
I am. I never, never, never want to forget how fortunate I am that I can go to the Met every day and so and like everything that the Met offers, everything that it stands for. So I think I kind of use physical transitions as and then people often do it before meals. That's the thing a lot of people do. So I think it's great to have something that you use.
Or another thing that I've heard people do, which I think is great is like use it as your password or your like screen saver or liker your lock screen photo so that you're reminded of it. I think those are all great things to do. I just personally did not like the right I don't and I don't like the like do it at the dinner table. That's not my family. I mean, my family's not going to cooperate with the like, let's all talk about three things we're
grateful for their you know, that's not the family I got. Great, They're not going to do that with me. So I just wanted to be clear about gratitude. I'm sure, gratitude, just not so enthusiastic about the journal. Not the journal.
I love the password idea. I don't think I've heard that before, and that's inspiring me actually to change some of my passwords, which.
Is just such a dreary thing. Your passwords.
Yes, yeah, you have to enter them several times a day, I'm mac I do now with meditation, how do you know when to give up on a habit like you did with meditation?
That is the million dollar question. I think that is really that is such a hard question because there are cases where you're like, if I would stick with it, maybe I would really have a breakthrough, you know, maybe I really would pass into a place where it would become easier, or I would I could feel this enthusiasm and you really want to give it a try, and I think so. I think I wish that I could develop kind of like a test for that, because it really,
it really did. It was really very hard for me as well. And actually I form habits pretty easily, and so stopping meditation was just as hard for me as starting. Like I really had to kind of say, Okay, Gretchen, this is not working for you. We're going to take this off the daily to do list. It took a fair amount of effort. I just think it was like I just I wasn't like whatever was supposed to be happening, I was not experiencing it. I wasn't experiencing any sense
of progress or any sense of change. It wasn't like I could imagine that I would get to a level where it just felt. It just was like, this just is a tool that doesn't fit my hand, but I think it can't. I think the I things do get easier. Like I mentioned quitting sugar. I think that's something where once you've stopped for a while, it gets much much easier because you lose that craving for sugar and you could just kind of you lose your taste for it a bit. So that's the kind of thing where it
might be really hard and then get easier. But it's sort of like there's no there's no sign that you'll think, you know, nothing comes in the mail to tell you, okay, it's time to give up or whatever. Yeah, it's if.
Only indeed, Yeah, and it's yeah, it's funny with with sugar. I quit sugar about seven years ago, and me too. Yeah, yeah, You're absolutely right. It does. It gets a lot easier, and then it just kind of it becomes the default. I remember us out for do you know, with my work team last night, and does it came and it's just kind of like I just have no desire for it.
So people don't get that, Like I think, it's really hard to understand. It's like to me, I'm like, it's like uncooked rice. It's not that it's not food. It's not that it's gross or anything. It's just it's not the kind of thing I eat. It just doesn't the bells don't ring in your head anymore. But you know, like one of the things that I that I've really found which is true for me, it sounds like it's
true for you. Is like there's abstainers and moderators when it comes to strong temptation, and for people who like to give things up altogether, like we're abstainers. It's like it's kind of all or nothing. Like for me with sugar, it's like if I have one cookie, I want ten cookies and it's very hard for me to stop. But if I have no cookies, then I'm like, oh, that's not hard for me. But like with a wine, I'm not that tempted by one. So I can have half
a glass of wine. But then I have a friend who's like, I can have one cookie, but for me, it's no wine or four glasses of wine. I can't have half a glass of wine. But then moderators are people who do better when they have something a little bit or sometimes. And these are the people who are like, I just keep a bar a fine chocolate in my desk drawer, and every day I have one square every other day, that's just enough, Like you should do that. I'm like, oh, my whole day would be like one square,
two square, two squares. It's my birthday, it's rating I deserve. I just like eat the whole thing just to get it over with. So I think it is different So from stainers. I think they're often surprised and relieved to realize what a relief it is to just say like
I'm just going to take this off the table. But then moderators really get kind of panicky and rebellious, and they do better when they're like, you know, you're just gonna have a few French fries, you know, just just gonna have a half a brownie and that's how they do better. So again it's like not everybody. There's no magic one size, so it's all solution. A lot of it is just experimenting and figuring out what works for us.
Yeah, it's such a good distinction. Is that it obviousactly like you with chocolate and wine, Chocolate could not have it here wine do not care.
But also, Joe, people say to you things like, you know, what's life without a brownie? Like yeah, Like I'm like, not eating brownies makes me so much happier than brownie's ever. Did like have a brownie if you want one, but I'd rather not.
Definitely, yes, and I'd rather not have the sugar.
Yeah. Well, and that you're just free of that Like that that like crazy decision. I just I find that very boring. Yeah that is now later, well does this count one? Two? I was Likeugh, just tiresome.
I don't want to talk about decisions. I want to know what's your process when you have to make a big decision. What does that look like for you?
Well, I'm a big pros and cons person, so I will make that list. But I have found a super useful test when I have a big decision where the pros and cons feel very balanced, and sometimes it's sort of like an apple and an orange, So no a
pros and cons, this doesn't even really help you. So, like we were trying to decide, it's a family whether to get a dog, like five or six years ago, and it's sort of like there's all these pros, there's all these cons, but in the end, it's just like do you want to have a dog or do you not want to have a dog? And I couldn't figure out how to decide, and then I realized, so my
test is choose the bigger life. And I think for some people a bigger life would be a life without a dog, because they're like I could travel more freely, I'd have more disposable income, I can always get a dog later, that's the bigger life. But I knew that for my family, the bigger life was to get the dog, and so we got our dog. We'd love our dog.
Barnaby was exactly the right decision. And I've talked to people like I talked to someone where he and his wife were trying to decide whether they should move to be closer to family. So it's like now we're in the big city. It's so exciting, but life is harder. We can move back home and like that's a smaller city, so maybe we don't have the same opportunities, but we're closer to family and friends, and we're thinking about having a family, you know, and it's like pros and cons
and you go back and forth. And I said, Okay, what's the bigger life. Choose the bigger life, and he was instantly He's like, the bigger life for us is to move back. That's just a bigger life for us. It's more opportunity, more friends, more family, like and he just knew it right away. And then and then he was sort of like, Okay, that's kind of like all I need to know, because only you know what the bigger life is for you. But it's it's clarifying. I think I found it very clarifying.
What is about the questions that you usually ask yourself you're making decisions about how to spend your time or energy, your money.
Well, I always do say is this going to make me happier? And that's how I make my decisions. So with that, like anything that goes to relationships, anything that deep into relationships, or broaden's relationships is likely to pay off in terms of happiness. Anything that helps me learn or grow that, you know, the atmosphere of growth is so important for happiness. So anything like that is something that I would be inclined to do. Something where I
feel like, maybe it's the fantasy self. It's like my idea of the kind of person I like to be. I watch out for that. That's a big warning sign for me. My big, my big personal commandment is to be Gretchen. And then sometimes I'm like, that just feels like me kind of wanting to do something that would be a good idea if I were a different kind of person, like by Linen cocktail napkins because they're on sale. What am I thinking? There is no that is not
Gretchen Linen Cocktail nlpkins. That would not be. That would not That's not something to spend my time, money or energy on.
I love your twelve person no commandments. I got to say, can you can you talk about some of the other ones that I guess that you apply in your life? My stuff in.
Well, one of them comes from my father. That's enjoy the process. And this is really helpful because you know, sometimes in life. And this goes back to decision making that you were talking about. You know, sometimes we can decide to do something that we really do not want to do at the time, maybe for years, but then we think, oh, there's going to be this big payoff, So I've got to like put up with all this badness in the in the in the process, because there'll
be this payoff. So I don't like being a lot lawyer, and I don't like being an associate in law firm, but in seven years I'll be a partner and that'll be great. Or I don't enjoy writing this book, but one day it'll be a bestseller and then it'll all be worth it. The problem with you when you don't enjoy the process is that a lot of times things don't work out the way we wish they did. We're not in control of outcomes. We can we can focus on process, but we can't. We can't control the outcome.
And if you enjoy the process, then the disappointment if things don't go your way is less. So I wrote a book called forty Ways look at JFK. I loved writing that book, and it flopped. It flopped so hard it didn't reach an audience. Didn't reach its audience. That's what they tell you when your book it fails. But I loved writing that book, and you know, I'm sad that it didn't find its audience, but I don't regret it because I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the process so much.
But if somebody had said, oh, you should write a book about X y Z, and I had had no interest in it, and I had just forced myself to do it, thinking like, well, there would be a big payoff in the end. So if you can enjoy the process, then I always just remind myself and also just remind myself like I enjoyed the process, like, Okay, maybe today I don't feel like writing this part, but I love writing. Like as my sister's a TV writer. She has a big sign in her office that says it's a fun job,
and I enjoy it. To remind herself that she picked TV writing, this is what she wants, and then I think. One of the most thought provoking happiness project resolutions for
me has been to imitate a spiritual master. One of my spiritual masters is Saint Trez of Leziu, which I'm not even Catholic, but I am like obsessed with her book Story of a Soul, and in there, Saint Terrez says that when one loves, one does not calculate, and so one of my personal resolutions is no calculation, because I can be a bean counter like, well, if I did this for you, husband, then you should do this
for me. And you took a nap yesterday, so it's my turn today, you know, and that's just not good. You should just give and not calculate. So no calculation comes from Saint Terrees.
Okay, it's nearly time for an ad to break, but can I ask a favor? If you are enjoying how I work, I would love it if you could eat, pause and leave a quick review for the podcast. I love getting feedback from listeners, and everyone has left reviews or star ratings. Thank you, thank you, thank you, you guys rock It's just awesome getting feedback. So thank you and thank you if you plan to do that today.
After the break, Gretchen will be back talking about how you can make your own commandments, Gretchen's method for handling criticism, and why she picks a word of the year, and what her word is for this year and how she's using that. What advice would you give to people who are listening to these personal commandments and thinking, oh, I wouldn't mind creating my own list, Like what was your process?
Oh I so highly recommend this exercise. Yes, so I have twelve, but you know that's just kind of the number that I came up with. Often people have fewer or more. This is a very very creative, really compelling exercise to help you know yourself. So this isn't sort of your to do list, you know, get my hair
cut regularly, and it's not. On the Happier podcast, we talk about like your twenty one for twenty one list, which is like what are twenty one things you want to get done in twenty twenty one that's super fun, Like on mine it was like watch mad Men finally, or you know, or things like deal with my email archive, which was like a mess that was like haunting me. Those are more like things that would be done or
things you want to start. Personal commandments is more about like what are your deepest principles and what are the principles that you want to guide your whole life, So like enjoy the process or choose joy I mean or is something where it really is kind of a transcendent principle that you want to live by. And it took
a long time. I worked on mine for months because I would add to it, and then I would decide that two things were really the same thing, just in different words, and then I had to pick one, and then some sort of didn't rise to the level of being a personal commandment. But I think it's really a creative way to do self reflection and to think about your aims for yourself.
I wanted around sort of handling criticism when you know, as someone who wants to achieve and maintain happiness. So what's your approach to dealing with criticism and negative feedback.
Well, one thing is if I wouldn't listen to their advice, I won't listen to their criticism. So I try to not expose myself to the critics, like drive by criticism. So like I don't read any reviews of my books, and I don't read any profiles of me. I try to read about nothing because it just gets in my head and often I will overreact to it, you know, like one person says one thing, I had this with my audiobook, Like I for my book Happier at Home.
Like someone had said, like, oh, why is Gretchen reading her book? She's not a professional actor, which is true, right, and so I thought, oh, that's why they said that for Happiness the Happiness Project. So when it came time to record Happier at Home, I thought, oh, well, I really want to do the better thing for listeners, and so I'll have it. You know, I have an actor do it. I won't do it myself, even though I
enjoy doing it. And then all these other people were like, oh, it was so much better when Gretchen retted herself, and I was like, why did I listen to one person? That just happened across my consciousness, you know. And so I try not to open myself up because I feel like that's distorting. I have so many people who give me criticism, people that I respect and admire, and I'm like, let me stay open to their criticism. That's not easy either,
but so I don't like expose myself to that. I do read emails from everyone, and like with the Happier podcast, we get a tremendous amount of email, and I get a lot of reader or email too, and of course on social media, so I definitely hear from people and with criticism. One thing I remind myself is is that a strong voice repels as well as attracts, and that's true of anyone that you can think of. Nothing is
universally liked. And if I try to make myself so vanilla that everyone will like me, then no one will be interested. So I just have to accept that like I am who I am, you might find it interesting, you may not, And that's just the way things go. I can't please everyone, but I do try to stay open to it. And like when I'm going to get a big edit, as I said, I'm in that process
right now. Like I will literally like have a mental imagery thing that I do where I like like imagine myself opening my heart, opening my chest to be like I'm open. My word of the year, I pick a word for the year every year. My word for this year is open. I want to stay open to hearing what people say. Often I have to think about it. I will warn people who are working with me, like
I always say no, I'm always really defensive. I always say I can't do it and then give me time, Like at least twenty minutes and then I'll be like, I see your point. I see how I can do it. That's a good point. Okay, Now I can't wait to do it because you're on a resent, right, and I can't wait to make a sit.
You know.
I just have to let myself go through that process. So part of it kind of knowing how I'll respond, and then I will kind of go into shock kind of. I often will. If I get an edit, I'll look at it and then I won't expect myself to do anything.
I'll just like go to bed early and start it because I am such a morning person the next day because I think it is hard to get criticisms, so I always want to be at my best when i'm when I'm starting to work through it, like had a good night's sleep, kind of ready for it, not just kind of drive by.
I love that image of like opening your heart and you said that open is your word for this year. What's your process for deciding on your word for the year.
Oh, it's so fun. Yeah, I've had one word theme for years now and I highly recommend it again. It's sort of you know, people get so tired of making New Year's resolutions. And yet it's very valuable to set an aim for yourself and to reflect. I think around the new year, this is a way to kind of
think like, well, what's the big idea? So for me, I was going to be doing a lot of new things this year, so I really did want to stay open and remind myself, like, think about there are other ways to do things, and they're you know, just stay open in the past, Like, I have a lot of material and so one year. One year my theme was repurpose because I wanted to figure out how to make new things out of stuff that I'd already created. One year, my word was lighter because I wanted to kind of
it was lighten up. My sister had lighter. One year I had lighten up. So I wanted to lighten up kind of my mood. I wanted to have kind of a more lighthearted outlook and a more light hearted demeanor. I can be kind of serious and kind of charging ahead, you know. I wanted to lighten up, and then I also wanted to get rid of a lot of stuff. I wrote this book Outer Order, inter Calm because I do feel like outer Order contributes to intercolm for me, and I thought let me just get rid of a
lot of stuff that I don't need. User love if I lighten up my my space. I thought I would feel I thought it would help me lighten up mentally, which it did. Oh my gosh, I love. I love I have an empty shelf. I love my empty shp. I love figuring out ways to create more order and more space.
On the topic of having out of order, and I loved your book out of Order in a com I think I read it like a week after it came out.
I was very excited to just vow that one. Oh thank you. It was such a fun like It's like it's like a hype book. It's like to get you pumped up to clear clutter. Right. It's like it's not even it's not like a narrative. It's just a bunch of ideas. It was great.
I want to know what what are your favorite ideas that you wrote about in that book?
Ooh so many. Well, one is the one minute rule. This is that anything you can do in less than a minute, do without delay. So if you can hang up your coat instead of throwing on a chair, or even better, if you can put up hooks, so you can put your coat on a hook instead of on a hanger, that's even better. Or like if you can put a document in the folder instead of just leaving it out on the desk, or you know, put a wrapper into the trash. I just do that with that delay.
That gets rid of sort of the scum of clutter on the surface of life.
Now, I imagine that you're someone that gets a lot of requests for your time and that you would have to say no very frequently in your life. What is your strategy for saying no? Like, how do you say no?
Well, get back to the four tendencies. This is something a poulterers are good at too, which is why they can sometimes seem cold, because they find it pretty easy to say no when they want to. But I can sometimes say like, I'll just say yes too easily because I know I can do it, so I'll just say okay, yes, whatever. Actually, I'm married to a questioner, and so it helps me that he's like, why would you do that? So sometimes I'll ask my husband Jamie if I should do something,
or I'll think, well, what would Jamie say? I don't even need to ask him, I just need to visualize him his face being like quizzically, why would you do that? So that helps me. And then often, you know, I just you know, I am like, I've got a big writing deadline that I have to meet, and I think people are pretty sympathetic to that. People get it, and so I just say, you know, I've got a big right deadlines, so I have to I'm saying no to a lot of things. Unfortunately I can't do it.
Where do you go for inspiration and new ideas, you know, particularly when you're thinking about what is the next book that you're going to write?
My next book idea always has come to me magically, so that's wonderful. It just comes out of whatever I've been naturally thinking about. So I feel super lucky about that. But my inspiration comes from two things. For shirt, reading, which again like I read all the time because that's where I get ideas, or talking to other people, just talking to the people around me, and I guess reading. I read a ton of memoirs and biography, so that's kind of like talking to people as well, or reading novels,
but just talking to people. Like some of my biggest insights have come from the most casual conversations, like a friend of mine once said to me, She's like, you know, the funny thing about me is I'm happier when I exercise. And you know, when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running on my own at now? And I thought, well, that's a great, great question. It's the same person, it's the same behavior. One time it
was no problem for you. Now you can't do it. What's going on? And I came up with like a big long list of things, And in the end, that's what led me to understand my full tendencies framework. Or there were people where they would say to me, because you know, because I write about kind of happiness and habits, I'm very interested in how people feel about New Year's resolutions. I talk to people about New Year's resolutions a lot, not so much for what they do, but how they
think about it. And there's a kind of person that I ran into over and over where if I asked about New Year's resolutions, they would say, oh, I don't do New Year's resolutions. I'll make a resolution anytime it makes sense for me, but I wouldn't do it on January first. Because January first is an arbitrary date. And I thought, well, that's interesting, because the arbitrariness of January first never really bothered me, but clearly for like some group of people, it was very significant. And so I
was like, what do I make of it? That pattern, and again that led me to my four tendency. So a lot of times it's just these casual things that people say that send me off in some direction that ends up being very I mean, it comes from reading too, Like I was reading one of my spiritual masters is Samuel Johnson, and there's a line it's not even in the life of Samuel Johnson. It's like it's like a comment of his that was written down where somebody offered
him wine. This is doctor Johnson, and he said they asked h if he would take a little wine, and he said, I can't take a little child. Abstinence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult. And when I read that, that's when I realized, like you, I'm an abstainer, like Johnson. Abstinence is easy, temperance is hard. I can have none, but I can't have a little bit. And it was reading that line from Johnson that all of a sudden made me realize this thing about myself.
And I thought I was the only one who is like this, because you know, everybody tells you, oh, moderation and is pleasant to the wise, and you should follow the eighty twenty rule. All that I thought I was the only one. That I started asking around. It turns out huge number of people are like this. So I get my insights really from reading or from other people.
Do you have a process for I guess, processing those those things that you're hearing, those observations, or is it just kind of happening in the background for you.
Well, you know, it's interesting because I do have a lot of notes. So I have a quotes thing where I'll write down quotes. I have my book of Aphorisms. I have notes on all different subjects. And I also have something called notes, which is like notes that don't go anywhere else, which you would think would be miscellaneous, which I said not to do, but it's actually different
for miscellaneous. But so I have all that. But what I have found is that often I will feel like writings taking a note, I will feel that something is significant, but I will not understand its significance. I will be like, why, I don't understand why I'm even bothering to write this down, But I, you know, okay, fine, I'll put this down, and then later, maybe years later, I will understand its significance.
And that is super exciting when I realized that I've actually been reflecting and researching something for years, even though I hadn't really grasped the subject yet, because I think a lot of times it takes me a long time to understand how things fit in. When I was writing my book about habit change better than before, I would often write down examples of things that people were doing or saying, or that I read about, and I would be like, I don't understand how this fits into this system.
This seems kind of relevant to have it change, but I don't really understand how. And it was only when I got deep, deep, deep, deep into it that all the pieces started sliding into place. So sometimes I just sort of have to trust to the future and assume that at some point I'll understand why something seemed significant, and I do find myself pondering, like I'll often be struck by something and I'll have to really think about, like, why did that seem so meaningful to me or what
was the lesson there? Like, sometimes it takes some thinking to figure out what the lesson was.
Something I think about when I read your work, and you know, when I consume other people's work that does sort of like yours and really inspire me to be better and you know, lead a kind of richer life is I think about what can I apply as a parent. I've got a seven year old daughter, and I'm constantly thinking,
how does this apply to her? So I'm wondering what do you do personally as a parent, Like what are some of the things that you you know, write about for adults, but you help I guess or apply or teach to your kids.
Well, one thing that has helped me tremendously as a parent and also just in life with other adults is to accept the reality of other people's feelings. Because I had a bad habit of saying things like, oh, you're not hungry, or you're not called, or you love you love going to Grandma Grandpa's house, or you know, you're not scared of the pool. And that's whether you're a child or an adult. That is very annoying and counterproductive. And I realize now it's much better to just acknowledge
the reality of other people's feelings. Like we just ate, but you still feel hungry, or you usually you love going to the swimming pool, but today you're you're just feeling very apprehensive. You don't feel like going into the swimming pool. It's like and often when you tell people that you acknowledge the reality of how they're feeling, you feel so much better. It's like my husband, it's like, you know something, like it sounds like it was really
annoying to be on hold for half an hour. Instead of being like, well, what's the big deal? Like what you know, it's not such a big deal to call the cable company, It's like that just makes you feel angry. So that's something that's really that's really helpful. I mean, one of the things that I really try to work on is just remembering that just because something works for me doesn't mean that it would work for my children. And like, one way this comes up, it's like I'm
a super desk person. I need a desk. I realized, like I need a desk like every ten feet, Like I only work at a desk. I want to be at a desk. I want a desk everywhere I go, and it was really hard for me. I was always trying to get my kids to work at a desk, like they work on their bed, they work on the floor, They work in these like positions that look so uncomfortable to me. And then I went into this was a long time, this is you know, before the before times.
I went into a we work or you know, one of those places, and it had a sitting thing. It wasn't a chair, and it wasn't a sofa, and it was like a bed, only kind of in a sofa form. And I saw somebody sitting on it and that was the way my daughter worked on her laptop. And I was like, this is the way people work, you know, we work is acknowledging. Some people like to sit like this. This is a way that some people were. I would never work like that. It was desperately uncomfortable to me,
but some people do. And then I stopped hassling my daughters to sit at a desk, because why why is it any of my business if they sit at a desk, If they if they get their work done, and they are perfectly content and productive, they should be able to do their work in their own way, And so part of it is just like, just because something works really well for me doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for someone else. And if they're doing it, if they're
doing fine, I shouldn't. I shouldn't I shouldn't try to persuade them to do it a different way.
How about helping children foam good habits?
Well, the most important thing to do is to be a good example. One of the there's twenty one strategies of habit change, and one of the most powerful strategies is the strategy of other people. And we pick up habits from other people in a flash, good habits and bad habits. And if you want your children to read, you read. If you want your children to go to bed on time, you go to bed on time. If you want your children to put down their phone, you
put down your phone. First of all, it'll make you much more convincing when you suggest that they do it, and you're just showing that behavior. And what I have found, you know, one of the truths, one of this kind of sad truths about happiness is the only people we can the only person we can change is ourselves. You know,
we can only change ourselves. But what I happened is that when I change, a relationship changes, and when I change, the atmosphere of my household changes, and if I do something, other people sort of come along. Not always and not perfectly, but often and more often than you might think. So, say, when I started getting up, you know, like I get up at six every day, And what I found is that when I get up, I sort of start everything moving, and so I think that makes other people get up.
Maybe they don't get up when I get up, but they probably get up earlier than they otherwise would. Or when I started making sure that I gave everybody a really warm hello and goodbye every time they went in and out of the apartment, that made other people more likely to do it too. We all talked about it, but it was really important that one person was really doing it. And then I think when one person and starts doing it, then you sort of get swept up
in it. So setting like doing it yourself is often very important. And then also you know, just deciding what happens if you ignore this some things, it's like, yeah, you would like their bed to be made, but is that is that the argument you feel like having is that is that is that what you feel like spending your time and energy on. Maybe not? Maybe so it might be really really important to you, but maybe not.
Yeah, I like that one now, Gretchen Gosh time is flown by for people that want to consume more of what you are doing. What is the best way for people to do that?
Well, if you'd like to listen more, I have a weekly podcast that I do with my sister who's a TV show runner, called Happier with Gretchen Ruben, where we talk about how to be happier spoiler alert and if you go to my website Gretchen Reuben dot com, I have that's a kind of a clearing house for everything about my books. I have a lot of free resources. I have a ton of you know, material there on habits and good and human nature and happiness generally. We
talked some about the four tendancies. If people want to know their tendency and get a little report and find out what that means, they can go to quiz dot Gretchen Ruben dot com or just look on my website
for the quiz. Like more than three million people have taken that quiz and it's free and it's quick, and we'll tell you your tendency and then I'm on social media everywhere as Gretchen Ruben, and I love to get insights and comments and questions from people, so I love, I love to engage with readers and listeners, So hit me up.
Amazing, amazing, Well, Gretchen, I've just loved talking to you. After following your work for over a decade, it's just been such a joy to chat. So thank you so much.
Well, thank you. I so enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate it.
Helloi, That is it for today's show. Now, if you are not a subscriber or follow up of How I Work, you might want to hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening to this from because next week I'm very excited to have Yale professor Marissa King on the show. She recently wrote a book called Social Chemistry that is all
about how to build our social networks. And I chatted to Marissa about how she's gone about building networks in her own life, from professional networks through to friendships, and it is a fascinating chat. So hit subscribe. How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead said Studios. The producer for this episode was the amazing Jedi Coder and thank you to Martin Imba who does the audio mix and makes everything sound awesome. See you next time.