Today's episode is another my favorite Tip episode where I go back to interviews from the past and I dig out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the thing that I got out of the interview that really impacted or resonated with me. Today's extract is from my chat with Scott Anthony. So this is my second time having Scott on the show. I loved my first chat with him so much that I was keen to have him back again during COVID to check in and see
how the way he approaches his work has changed. So if you haven't come across Scott, Scott is a global authority on innovation and also the former managing partner of Inosite, the innovation and strategy consulting firm co founded by Clayton Christiansen. Scott has written several best selling books and writes regularly for Harvard Business Room. Scott has also been awarded the Thinker's fifty Innovation Award, which recognizes the world's leading thinkers
on innovation. So in this extract, with my second chat with Scott, we talk about the new rituals that he has developed for doing deep and also shallow work, which I found fascinating. So on that note, let's head on over to Scott. I want to dig into deep and shallow work. You mentioned that as part of your routine, and I remember when we spoke last a lot of your deep work rituals took place when you're on a plane and therefore disconnected from all things digitally distracting, and
also in cafes and seat of other such places. So how does your deep work ritual work now? And I guess how are you tricking is not quite the right word, but it is kind of tricking your brain into going, okay, this is deep work time. Because I found for myself I completely had to change my habits and triggers around that, because I too would do a lot of my deep work in cafes and on planes, which is now no longer an option at all in Melbourne where I'm based.
No, absolutely, And you know, so the planes have certainly been out for me. The cafes are conceivable but challenging, you know, because you're then either very with Singapore regulation, you're either very slowly nursing a drink, or you're sitting around with a mask on, which just makes you conscious and it's just a little bit harder for your brain to unwind and focus, I've found. So for me, it
really has been three things. Number one has been being even more ruthless about scheduling the time, making sure that I use some of the things Amantha that you've taught me about making sure that you put formal time on the calendar for things, and then making sure that that is time that you hold sacricent. So that's number one. Number two, to trick my brain, I do change space, just I do it within the place in which we live. You know, I again am fortunate that there's enough different
places that I can work. You know, we've got a nice porch that if the weather is good, can be a good place to get stuff done. And the kids are in school. Schools are open here, so there are good quiet periods of time where I can actually do that where sometimes you know, it's at weird hours. You know, it could be quite late at night where you get that moment where you've got ninety minutes just to crank
through things in between calls. So it's making sure it's not all done within the home office where I sit most of the time, but it's in different spaces in the house. And number three, I've used music a lot as the way just to get my brain into flow. You know. There's just certain mixes that I have or playlists on Spotify that just tell my brain this is when you're going to actually engage in a task. And I found for me, at least, I get much more in flow when I have background music. And I'm very
thankful for the AirPod pros from Apple. They're just to me, just phenomenal noise blockers. So you really can just immerse yourself and sound and just disappear in what you're working on. So those are the things that I've done.
That's great. What are your go to playlists then? For your deep work?
Oh, it's a mix of different things, you know, and sometimes it's just following threads, you know. So I like music a lot. They are all things that I've created. If I'm trying to do deep work, this is not one I listen to my favorite band, which is a Pearl Jam is good for other things, but it is
not good for deep work. But usually I will have some album that I've purchased recently, Like recently I purchased a new album from Phoebe Bridgers and Bright Eyes, and there's just a tonality in both of those albums that it's just good for me when I'm working, and then I'll go from those albums and sometimes go to Spotify Radio off the songs actually do my albums by the way, I just, you know, I feel like in the creative space, I write things and I hope people buy some of
the things that I do. So I always feel like for artists, if I am listening to the music, I owe it to them to buy the albums as well, you know. So I buy a couple dozen albums a year, and it just changed depending on mood. But it tends to be things that are a little bit discordant sonically, but not things that are too loud, if that makes sense. So something where I can kind of feel the noise
but it's not disruptive to my brain. I've actually never thought about that before, but that's at least the way that I think about it.
Yeah, that's very interesting. I remember, like a couple of years back now, I had Matt Mullenwig on the show, the co founder of Automatic, and he had a strategy where he would to get into flow, he would listen to the same song on repeat. Do you ever do that? Or is it always circling like straight through the album.
I never listened to the same song and repeat, and generally, if I'm trying to lose myself, it is some collection on random, because if I listen to something in order, like if I listened to the Phoebe Bridgers album in order, my brain is starting to track into and it knows what's coming, and I get kind of pulled too much into the music on random. For whatever reason, brain kind of loses it. You know, you hear it, you hear it, but it's not something that you're tracking and figuring out.
It doesn't really make sense because you would think if you're listening to something where you know what's coming next, it's a way to not have to process things, and when you get surprised by a song then you have to stop and think about it for a second. But at least for me, it just helps me disappear.
Yeah, it's interesting listening to you talk about it almost makes me want to experiment with music again. I've tried different strategies around music and working rituals, and I did try the same song on repeat. I remember when I was going through a massive Hamilton stage quite a while ago. Now I would have a particular song on repeat from Hamilton, which found I found quite good because you just sort of get into the zone and it does become background
music quite quickly when it is the same song. But yeah, that's almost caterintuitive what you're saying about the random music. But I'm feeling all inspired to try music again when I work.
Now.
I want to look at Kelly work because you said something interesting where some mornings you'll feel the need to feed your brain with shallow work. And for me, that just kind of struck something in me because in my own possibly quite rigid rule book, it's like, hang on shallow work in the morning. The only time I would do that is if I've got a keynote in the morning and I know I can't get into flow before
the keynote because I'll just be disrupted. So tell me about how you know when you're going to do shallow work in the morning. And I'm just curious to understand more about that.
And you know, some of this is just again just given the reality of the way that twenty twenty has worked. You know, my chronotype, according to the test that I took about reinventing your workday is a middle bird, so I am neither a lark nor a night owl. But the thing I find for me is where I am at my best really is circumstance contingent. So there are some days where I've not worked that late. I've woken up after a good sleep and I can hop out of bed and I could go and write a check
after the book. And there are other days where it's been more fragmented. It's been later, I've had a choppy morning where there's just no way I could do it. I just I'm not going to be really deep functional until later in the afternoon or early in the evening, and I have a reasonably good sense of myself to just have a feeling as to what type of day it is. And if it's a day like that, then I'll flip around and say, Okay, this is a great day to do stupid stuff and just answer the emails
that need to get answered. And I know I'm beating the whatever skinner like dopamine hit when I do it, and i know I'm not really making progress with anything material, but it's just a way to kind of warm up. And there are other days where that is the exact last thing that I will do where I will say, Okay, I really do have it in my brain to do it, and I need that focus first thing in the morning, and I won't even look at email. So to me,
it's very circumstanced contingent. And I do have something that I adopted as a ritual a couple of years ago that is held, which is, I do not look at email first thing in the morning under any circumstance. So I wake up, I do other things, and I might look at WhatsApp to see who's texted me, and I'll read some sports news, and I'll look at other things. That it is only until I've had my first sip of coffee that I will allow myself to look at email.
And some days it's not even that. If I really have a deep work task, I won't even peek because you know you know this. I mean, you tell other people this, you tell yourself, Oh, I can just look and not engage. But your brain just starts worrying once you see these emails, and you're like, oh, here's all this stupid stuff that I need to do. Not that my colleagues asked me to do stupid stuff, but you know, you know the point.
That is it for today's show. If you want to listen to the full episode, I link to that in the show notes, so you might want to check that out. And if you are enjoying how I work, I would be so deeply grateful if you just take five seconds out of your date to leave a review in Apple Podcasts. It might be a star rating or a few words, and by doing so, it helps other people find the show and it also brings a huge smile to my face. So thank you to the hundreds of people that have
left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is it for today's show and I will see you next time.