Michael Bungay Stanier teaches you how to begin

twenty too. So how does Michael make sure that a new project is worthy of saying yes to? Why does Michael set goals in six week chapters? And why should you be creating an operating manual to use with new colleagues or clients. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, And this is how I work, a show about how.

And it's varied over the years, but for the podcast that I have at the moment, I am trying to disrupt the usual conversation that people have, particularly authors, because if the author is on a bit of a podcast tour because they're talking about a boat, they're kind of locked and loaded into a couple of stories and a couple of key messages. Yes, And I'm always interested in

trying to get something else from there. So my podcast is called two Pages with MBS, and it's where brilliant people read the best two pages from a favorite book. And I know my first ten minutes of that podcast is to try and get my audience to feel a connection to that person, and then the rest of the podcast is them reading the book and then us talking

about the ideas and that. So in that before we hit record, I'm like, first of all, permission to permission to muck up because it is a produced podcast, so my producer can take out gaps and pauses and stumbles and the like. And then I say, look, here's roughly how the structure of the calls going to go, so you'll you'll know roughly the kind of the milestones. You know, ten to fifteen minutes, we moved from your story to asking about the book. And then I go, look, I'm

really interested in the slightly unexpected. So if you see a story, tell me the story. If there's a left hand turn you can take in the conversation, take the left hand turn, because I love trying to keep up with you and engaging with you in the moment, because for me, I'm trying to invite people in my podcast who the type of people who if you sat next

to them at a dinner party, you'd be stoked. Sometimes you sit next to people and a dinner party or at a conference or something, and you're like, you know what, it was a perfectly pleasant conversation, but I'm not feeling totally nourished by it. And sometimes you get lucky and you sit next to somebody and you're like, oh my god, you are so interesting. I'm trying to get people to be that person on my podcast.

we're going to work on together. So this is a conversation that's helpful if you're you know, you have somebody new coming on your team, or you start working with a vendor or a contractor or anybody. Really you got a relationship where you like, we want this to be

really good. The temptation is always to go, let's talk about the project, what needs to be built, what are we starting, what are our KPIs, and what are our es or whatever, And that pressure to an excitement to get stuff done often kind of sweeps you into that type of conversation. And you're in the honeymoon of this relationship with this new person, just like you're awesome, and I'm awesome, and where awesome? This project awesome? What could

possibly go wrong? And the thing is something will go wrong every because it always goes wrong. It always goes off the rails a little bit. So I'm really enamored and try and have the discipline to have a conversation about let's let's talk about our operating manual. And I've just got a few questions or and I don't ask all of them all the time, but a few questions that I feel like help us having a conversation to go, let me tell you how to get the best out of me, and I want you to tell me how

to get the best out of you. So I'll say things like, you know, Samantha, when you've worked with somebody like me before and in a project like this and it's gone really well, tell me what happened? What did you do? And what did the other person do? And

then I'll answer the question myself. You know, when I worked on somebody like you and Mantha on a project like this and it went really well, here's some of the stuff that happened, and I'll go and when you've worked with somebody like me on a project that's kind of been a bit of a disaster or just kind of mediocre, what happened? You know, what did you do and what did they do? And we're building up understanding about one of the contexts in which we flourish and

one of the contexts in which we struggle. You know, a great one is, and this is a question directly from Peter Block, how do you feel about the amount of power you have in this relationship? That's a that's a really hard question to ask. It it's it always takes people are back, but it's it's it's really good at kind of going how who has control here? And how do you feel about that?

way to pull me out of that. So we actually have a conversation about this is what I look like when I'm behaving badly or under stress, and here's how you can manage me best to get me out of that doom loop. And I'll get them to tell me the same.

get some interesting answers. What do you do though, if, like, if you're working with someone and maybe there like their insight into themselves and particularly you know, their shadow side their weaknesses is.

going for you as a human being? How has it going for me as the person who's your your nominal boss? What do we need to do differently to do that? One of the questions that both with Shannon who's the CEO of Boxer Crayons, and Ainsley, who is kind of

she works at MBS dot works. One of the questions that is most powerful in this is what needs to be said that hasn't yet been said, because that just creates space for us to go, ah, you know that thing that's hard to talk about, or I've been looking for the moment to sneak it into the conversation and I haven't quite figured out how to say it because it's a bit confronting to me or a bit confronting

to you or whatever. What needs to be said that hasn't yet been said is just a permission to lay down the as yet unspoken, and that is a great cleanser and builder of resilience into the relationships.

more opportunities than you can actually cope with. And there's a wiring that I've certainly carried on or taken with me, and other people might have taken it too, which is like when you start your career, you kind of say yes to a lot of things because you're just trying to build up experience and stories and to taste things. It's like, do I like the taste of this? Can I do it? You're trying to find that sort of sense of this is who I am in the context

of work. Because I don't know about you, Manthon, but the first two or three years I spent working, I was just learning how to work. I was just learning who am I in the work context because it was different from being a university student or whatever. At a certain point you can actually do, you know, technically, you can do more than you actually have time for. So now it's about going, well, what are the choices that I can make that are thrilling to me and important

and that they serve a bigger goal. And in organizations, there is a hunger for people to be more strategic, you know, they're like, ah, we said we need we really want people to be more strategic and everyone's like, yeah, I need to be more strategic, and everyone's like, yall, what does that mean? Because it's one of those anodyne words that gets bounced around and can mean you know

everything and nothing. I think that one way to think about what does it mean to be strategic and therefore valued and therefore influential and an important person in a setting, in a context is to have the courage to say no to things? Who can say yes to what matters? And it's scary, and it's confusing, and it's fear of missing out, and it's what if I take the wrong choice, and the guilt and the anxiety that comes with making

a choice. But it is also an adult act, and it is a choice to say, look, I'm committing to something that feels right. You can't control the outcome, but a full commitment of the process gives you a better chance of something amazing happening.

Hell Yes or No. Now it's just one really helpful way of going, look, just work with my gut instinctive says it hell yes or no. Second, I'll actually do a little test for criteria, so, you know, to take an example that we're living at the moment. For podcast invitations, I've got somebody in my team to do a tiny bit of research around you know, what's the podcast about? How many people listen to it? Do I know them? And there's a kind of mix of a criteria I

might say yes or no to there. And then there's the third point is me. It's a bit more existential, Amantha. It's just me going why am I filling up my space? And one am my you know, kind of one of my running from and why am I so uncomfortable with space and silence and you know, non busyness, and so part of it is just to kind of check into what the bigger the bigger things are that I do. So I've got that as a kind of immediate response

to a request. Then there's a bigger context, which is what's the big project that I'm working on at the moment. So again, you know, Manthri, I stand on so many people's shoulders to talk about this stuff. But a writer called Kevin Kelly gave me the idea many years ago of figuring out your death date. So basically, with with statistical tables from actuaries, you can kind of figure out statistically when you're likely to die. And I know my

death date. It's September fifteenth, twenty forty three, and Kevin Kelly and you can look this up at kk dot org if you're you're interested in finding this article. You guys, look, you basicly got five big projects, one big project every five years. So twenty twenty one, twenty forty three, I basically got five and a half four and a bit project left in me, which is quite sobering. It's like to write a book and get it out into the world and really kind of have that be a thing.

Is about a five year project. Maybe that's a bit long, but it's about right. It's a good useful rule of thumb. So for me, there's also the bigger picture around, so what's my worthy goal right now? That's the language I use around how do I set that big project that I want to commit to that feels like the best expression of something that lights me up, something that serves the world, something that stretches and grows me. And then

against that It's not as complicated as it sounds. I work in these kind of six months six week cycles around. I do a burst of work and then I stop and I pause and I kind of re evaluate where I am and re orient and decide what the next six weeks are going to be. And that structure also helps me figure out what I'm saying yes to and what I'm saying though to.

I find and I find this when I talk to writers of business books, there's kind of there's the the year of research and prep, there's a year of writing and editing, and then there's a year of promoting it, and you know, and obviously like you still just ter.

make it. A part of your focus around well how does this book end up looking and going through the type setting and then getting it out into the world and then committing to marketing it and stuff.

and a role model to myself. And I'm like, you know what it is worth being fallow for a little bit to kind of go what matters to me now and to kind of open yourself up to the to the world to go, how can you bump into stuff that might spark you and have you think about new

possible projects. Because the process of kind of figuring out a project, I can talk about it and I will talk about it in just a second, but there is an experience that it's like the recency effect, which is we we're so influenced by what we've just recently done that sometimes it can be hard to shake off what

the next project might be. That's not just kind of like it's just it's almost it's kind of the same as the last big project that you finished, because you're still walking the value of writing a book and writing a book about you know that particular topic. I read an article in The Guard on the weekend by Tim Minchin. It's an interesting article about ambition about how he made his name as a comedian and then stop being a comedian, and people may not have fully noticed it, but he's like,

I didn't want to get sucked into that label. And he's he talks about his ambition now to be unpigeonhole able, if that's even a word, and I personally admire that because it's like he's been a willingness to kind of slow down and go let me stay open to what shows up, and let me stay open to what other projects he might not just move towards success, but actually be something that stretches and grows you in an unexpected way.

on LinkedIn. Just search for Amantha Imba. I think I'm the only one there, and you can also find me on Twitter at Amantha and on Instagram at Amantha.

bit nerve wracking as you take it on. You know, I was talking to Liz Wiseman the other day, who has a new book out, and she's like, it's like, you know how to start the project, but you don't know how to finish it, Like exactly, there's a goal like that, So the kind of right weight to it. And this isn't something that you've done before. You might not have done it technically, or you just might not have done it at this scale or at this level

of ambition or something. So it's there's unknown, and it means that you can't just map out a you know, a three year project of a water fall going this and this and this and this. It is emergent. It's going to evolve. Even what might be the goal, the bigger goal that you have made, change and evolve as you begin the work on it. So this idea of well,

here's another metaphor. It's not like you set you find your worthy goal and then you go right, I'll just type in the Destiny Nation addressing to my Google maps, and you know, it's like seventeen minutes, five corners eighteen minutes if you stop at the coffee shop. You know,

it's more like you. You're in front of you is a kind of misty valley, and on the on the other side of the valley is that kind of a peak which you think is your peak, but you're not entirely sure, and you've got to find your way forward and you've got to navigate your way through the wilderness that's in front of you to get to your destination. So you know, I can claim inspiration from something like orienteering. So you're like map and compass, You're like, okay, this

is where I'm trying to go. So you set your compass and you set a destination. I've got to get to that gum tree, and then you run to that gum tree and then you pull out your map and you re orient and you get your compass out and you get to the next gum tree or rock or whatever. But it's the same pattern you see in things like Agile in terms of how they think about working in bursts.

They figure out what the important thing is, they work hard on it, and then they stop and they go, now, what if we've done this or we' to do this, where do we what feels most important now? And it also is a process talked about by the former chief tech officer of base Camp, and he's got a book called I can't remember what the book is called, but it's basically about how they ship product in base Camp.

And he says said, look, we tested it, and it seems that six weeks is long enough to make real progress on something, but short enough that if you've just been spent six weeks working on the wrong thing, the opportunity cost isn't that great, So you can get really committed to it, you can go far. And also, if it's been a complete bust. It's only six weeks in the big scheme of things. So I was like, you know what, that's a good thing. That's I'm going to steal that. So six weeks it is.

was I super excited about that as a job. So how to coach? I kind of hired or no, I kind of tapped Shannon, who's working for the company. I said, you're around, next CEO. We spent a year preparing for the handover, and then on a certain date I stepped aside, she became CEO, and we had another year being coached to basically stopped me screwing up the founder transition because founders always medal and their beard and their prima donnas and blah blah blah. So it's basically to keep me

out of the kitchen. So that all went pretty well. But I'm on the other side going, and you know, Mantha, this kind of connects to your you know, what's my next project question from earlier on. I'm going, well, who am I?

that wasn't my thing to talk about anymore. That was Box of Crowns and I was going to be separate from that. So somebody mentioned erin we work to me. She calls it the dig dog, and she's like, well, here's what happens over two three hour processes. You will tell her your story, she'll listen to it, and in real time, she will create your your ecosystem, your kind of operating system using language. It'll be you know, somewhere between one and five different words. And Amanda, I can't

tell you how skeptical I was about this. I was just like, you know, first of all, I'm a pretty good facilitator, and I'm like, Okay, you're gonna have to be a really good facilitator because I'm very impatient with poor facilitators and I'm not that good with the kind of woo woo stuff either. So I'm like, ah, man, this sounds like it's it's a combination of bad facilitation and woolness. But I was a bit stuck. And you know, she actually there are two people who've gone through her

process that I knew and admired. I was like, well, okay, she's got social proof that is actually of value to me. So I caught her up and we did this remotely because there was COVID times or maybe it wasn't. Maybe well it doesn't matter, did it remotely? And Manta, it was amazing because I was so sure what my three my words were going to be. They're going to be something around possibilities and curiosity and coaching and questions and

creativity and making a bit zany or whatever. And I just was like, I know, I know what this is about. And the three words that came back were actually none of the above. One was confidence, one was forward as in kind of looking forward and progress. And the root word, the kind of the core word, and my setup is power, particularly disrupting power kind of how do I how do I play a role to disrupt and decenter the norms

of power that show up. I was very excited to get those three words because I because they offered me a way out of the box that I built myself, the box of crayons kind of definition and cloak that

I was finding it hard to shed. And you know, the power word became the kind of the origin of what the work that NBS do works is about, which is to help people be a force for change, where I'm like, I'm going to help other people give them the tools and the confidence and the resources in the community to claim power and disrupt power in whatever their sphere happens to be. So as yeah, it's super exciting. I was surprised, and you know, I know, I actually know.

Eron's just starting to launch a course now I think, so if people are interested in their state, can go check her out. I really recommend it.

be kind of kind about it. I try and follow the science, Amantha, and that means nap and go for a walk and get into nature a little bit. And I'm not always convinced that I can tell the difference that it feels better, But I'm just trusting that actually I'm just the same as everybody else, and that lying down and taking a twenty minute nap or going for a thirty minute walk outside is just going to help

me help me get better. And you know, there's all the good stuff we know about you know, make you know, doing the tasks that you feel that are appropriate to your level of energy right now. So there are sometimes I'm like, man, I couldn't create a creative spark if if my life depended on that. So I'll say I'm just going to go, right, I'm just going to see if I can do forty minutes and get my inbox down to less than twenty eight thousand inbox messages or

something something like that. So there's there's a way of kind of setting context around that. But you know that, I think probably the final standard I give myself it's says to go, well, what is good enough? Because there I find what's really pernicious Amantha is a driving level of quality that is not always required. So a big thing is says to go, if I had to guess what good enough was for this little piece of work, right, now what would that be and is that within reach? Right now?

really means beyond just kind of the obvious. So you have to come up with a way of thinking about describing a brand. And I first came across as tool this not in the context of describing a brand, and then I moved it into the world of personal development and self growth and self management. So here's how I

think about it. I come up with pairs of words, somewhere between five and seven pairs of words, and I'm trying to articulate what I'm like at my very best and also what I'm like not when I'm at my worst, but when I'm just when I'm off my game, you know, like I'm ten percent off my game or fifteen percent off my game. And I find that's a really helpful Chok. So let me give you an example of some of

the pairs of words. Step forward, not step back, hold it lightly, not take it seriously, be generous, don't be greedy. And the way I manage it, Amantha, is if I'm feeling understress, and I particularly feel this if like I'm I'm about to give a speech in front of a kind of important audience, or I'm having a meeting with somebody and it feels like there's a lot on the line and I want my best public version of myself

to show up. This is particularly when I use this tool, because what I will often do is I will notice how I am playing small or shutting down or kind of manifesting some of those behaviors that are in the not that column, and I'll need to go into the this column to remember what I'm like at my very best.

So as an example, I was down in Detroit, you know, the home of all the big car manufacturers, some years ago, and I was giving a talk and it was basically a whole bunch of senior folks from like all the big car manufacturers, and it was just like this gathering of alpha males. I mean, honestly, they were all six foot four. They all had white teeth and short gray hair, and gray suits and white shirts and red ties and really firm handshakes. And this isn't my natural setting at all.

And I could just feel myself shrinking because I'm like, oh man, these are my people, this is my audience. And you know, my usual speech or workshop thing is kind of a bit provocative, a bit performative, a very interactive, and I could just have I have all these doubts, you know, like, oh man, this is bad. I should shut it down. I should behave I should conform to

what's going to be expected of me. And then I noticed that and I was like, oh, and one of my pairs of words is provocative, not sycophantic, you know, sycophantic meaning basically sucking up to somebody. And I could just feel myself becoming sycophantic, and I'm like, Okay, I'm going to remember that. Actually part of me at my

best is to be a little bit provocative. And it kind of gave me permission and got me reconnected to how I wanted to be on stage with these people, how I wanted to be the best version of myself.

nearly as good as you think it is. And I've just tried to build a practice of you know, taking it, honestly, taking a bit of a breath to think, what's the best answer to this that I might be able to offer, rather than what's the first answer that comes to mind? Because I'm now, you know, I'm in my somebody once said that I'm in my early mid fifties. So I've just been around long enough now, I just I know stuff,

and I know alternatives, and I know options. You know, I've just been around enough that enough settlement has sunk to the bottom of this particular lake, and I'm like, how do I how do I find an answer that feels most decisive right now that could be of best service to the audience right now rather than just the first thing that comes to mind.

we were going to be talking about. And forty minutes into it, forty five minutes into it, she guys, okay, so coach me. I was like, oh my god, I'm coaching Brene Brown. Try not to panic. And I would ask Brene a question and there just be this silence.

And I'm not sure how long that it goes on for, because I'm not that good at listening to myself and me, but it felt like it was like a twenty minute silence up between me asking a question, her answering at and inside my head is like, oh my god, fill the silence, fill the silence, ask another question. But you know, experience was like you know what, just hold the silence because it's such a precious gift to give people a bit of space to think.

dot com is a place for the book. If you want a more general introduction to the work that I do, MBS dot Works is where you'll find my podcast few pages With MBS, We've got this wonderful free year long course called The Year of Living Brilliantly, which was meant to be like a marketing thing. You know, I get people into this course and upsell them to stuff. But it's a terrible marketing thing because it's literally a year of brilliant teachers teaching people new stuff, like a new

six minute video every week. So by the time people are done, they're like, we're exhausted. There's been so much good work here that we don't want to buy anything. So terrible marketing idea, but a great course if people are interested in that.

The producer for this episode was Jenna Kota, and thank you to Martin Nimba, who does the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.