Introducing my new show: How To Date

Hello there, It's Amantha here, the host of How I Work. But today's show is not an episode of How I Work. I'm actually interrupting How I Work normal proceedings to give you a preview of a new show that I have just launched with my closest girlfriend, Monique.

The show is.

Called How to Date, and it's a show that we decided to launch because Monique and I are both about one year out of our respective marriages. We are dating, immersed in the world of dating, not doing too well at it, and so we thought, well, what better way to get better at dating than to ask experts how

Hi.

I'm also your host Monique Robin. I'm a mom of four kids and a yoga teacher trying to find men who like me rather than my limber joints.

Welcome to our first episode, everybody. Monique and I have known each other since we.

Were five years old.

We do everything together like best friends.

Do.

We even got divorced at about the same time. So how's it that now this podcast came about because Monique and I we're struggling. I would say, well, I mean we're single, So that kind of goes to show that we are struggling with online.

Dating reader desperately feeling very pathetic.

And it's like it's a whole other world. Like I didn't think I'd be dating again in my lifetime. I thought I'd done with that in my twenties.

No, I'm so going to get married right first time round.

We thought we could host a podcast where we can bring in experts to learn about what are all the questions that we have about how can we get better at dating because clearly we're struggling right now, and we've got an awesome guest on today's show. We found this amazing clinical psychologist, doctor Yelena Ketchamanovich. She's based in Washington, DC, and we learn all about how we can be more successful in the world of online dating.

Yeah, she had some really really practical take homes.

So before we get into the interview, I'm keen to hear about what's been going on in your dating life this week.

Medique well, there was this guy that I met through the bumbleap and I was messaging him and on his profile, I thought, he seems like a really good guy. But I definitely ascertained right from the outset I was not physically attracted to him. He looked like a best friend kind of guy. He was not my type, but I knew that he was normal, good person, and by normal I mean just not a weirdo.

So I thought, the bar's low.

Well it is. You're right anyway, So I said to him, just because you know how, you asked these rudimentary questions. And one of the questions I asked him is so what are you up to right now? And he said, well, I'm just shopping locally. And I knew we'd already ascertained we lived near one another. And I said, oh, well, I'm on Balaclava Road getting a coffee and he said, oh, shut up, I am too. I'm not joking. We were

Okay.

I knew that he was a good guy. And I know this sounds dodgy. It was that brief period after Lockdown but before the next one, and it was still a bit weird to go out. So I said to him, do you want to come to my place for a drink? Somebody's like yeah, he jumped on that. And then anyway, so I said, I can't even remember. I said, like eight thirty pm for a drink. I get a knock at my door. I'm dressed up like, looking like I'm about to go clubbing, because you're excited to have social

What? What?

And I said, Oh, I don't know. If I was already borderline uncomfortable about inviting you to my place. You know, we discussed this, and you either have two choices, to use my kids bath or to use my on sweet one, which would mean walking through my bedroom. He's like, oh, I don't mind whichever one you would prefer, hang on?

Was there a third option? Go home, have a shower at your home, come back.

Well, he'd have to run whatever ten k's to do that. And that's also another thing, Amantha. Did that mean he expected to get drunk and sleep at my place? Like just saying so anyway? Seriously? So anyway, I said to him, ah, and I thought about it, and all that sort of thought like get out of my house went through my mind. And anyway, I said, you know what, okay, I said it really nastily and that really sort of you know, passive aggressive voice. Fine, you can use my shower. I guess.

What he didn't a towel?

I said, what was in your backpack?

Really?

You brought a backpack to my place? He's like, oh, my clothes. And then I had to direct him to my kid's bathroom, which happens to double as the linen clauses. So he ended up having to go into my children's bathroom. He gets a towel, he uses the towel, and so with that, I'm hoping that's what the banging was for, to try and find the towel. And he came down smelling like a powder path with his new like dating clothes on, and to be honest, it just land and

So he's come downstairs, freshly showered, ready for the date.

Yeah, and you're saying go, I said go, I said go.

How did he react?

And he goes, oh, like, I'm really sorry. Do you think he goes? Was I inappropriate asking for a shower? I said, I need to get some feedback on this, but I do think it's inappropriate. Yeah, I do, but I've lost my social parameters and barometers, so maybe you're appropriate. And I said, I really don't know, but I need time to think about it, you know what I mean. Anyway, He's like, oh, all right, so do you want me to go? And maybe we can arrange another time. I said, yes,

A week? Oh, you wouldn't call it good. It started off well though. So I'm matched with a guy on bumble and I think I sent you his photo because he looked like Hugh Jackman, and I was very excited. But I think when you say someone looks like a celebrity, it's always slightly offensive because they're never going to be as good as the actual celebrity. So he was let's call him very important businessman. He thought he was.

An answer for you to call him very important businessman. This is a story.

So we're messaging, and I know for both of us, we've discussed this in terms of our dating funnel. One of the aims is to get people off the bumble app or whatever Apple dating pipeline, dating pipeline and onto WhatsApp, because it's far.

It's an important transition to make.

It is. It's a big step, and a lot of men fall down at that step. But anyway, I'd managed to make that transition. You converted him, converted him, Yes, So we exchanged a few.

Even as a very important businessman.

Even as a very important businessman, I was happy to make that transition. And then we're exchanging quite long text messages, and he had this weird quirk where he would finish his text messages with a rose emoji. Okay, like I was a actually contended and was giving me the roes.

Yeah, okay, every extra you're so bloody luggy lucky it again. You made it to the next round of textings exactly. So I'm a very important businessman.

That's right. You should be happy. So he was you know he was. He was very keen, which was slightly off putting, and I wasn't sure if that was my own self esteem telling me why is he so interested, or whether it was something I was picking up, And now that I look back on the experience, now that it has ended, it was definitely something I was picking up. So we arranged to have a zoom chat, which, weirdly enough,

Yeah.

Yeah, So I searched for him, and I search for his company name, and I land on this website where people can complain about really dodgy business practices, and there are literally like over a hundred entries. I kid, you did for him, people complaining about him and his business practice.

It's making claims against him or yes, yeah, and he.

Had a lawsuit against that.

It's actually not funny.

It's not funny at all.

It's not funny at all, but trust you to find that.

So he had a lawsuit, and he did explain that in one of the earlier texts. He said he was framed.

Of course, so it wasn't his fault. It wasn't his fault because people wanted to destroy such an important man.

Exactly how could the poor thing? He was a whistleblower for his industry.

Oh right, that's what he said.

And so I find I find this website, I'm like, oh my god. And I've just committed to a zoom chat with him anyway, so I just thought, well, look it, tell it. I totally did it, and just to see what sort of a person is this, Like is he a classic narcissist? Because I think it's always good to have experience with narcissists so that you can identify them more easily. Yeah, So we have a fifteen minute zoom chat.

Can I just say one thing just to psychoanalyze this? Yes, I reckon, because clearly from what you're about to tell me he's not a very important businessman. He probably did his Google research on you and he probably thought, oh, this will validate my story dating this lab. You know, you are all just part of his very important businessman persona dating a very important business woman.

Oh yes, anyway, continue anyway. So he's just he's reeling off the most ridiculous things, like I said, you know, how's COVID been for your business given that you can't do face to face meetings and consults anymore? And he said, you know what, it's actually been great. We're saving about three hundred million in leases. I'm doing the maths in my inventium has a lease in Melbourne where we pay

You get really dismissive when you're in that mood you would have done yeah, yeah, like I.

Don't want to talk about me. I want to talk about it if you want to understand this very important businessman who's very, very dodgy. Anyway, so we get off the phone. I'm like, sorry, I got to prepare for my next meeting. I got to go lovely chatting, and at least he was good enough to go, well, if you want to continue the chat, let me know. So he kind of left the ball in my court, which I appreciated. And then I try to have a policy of not ghosting, but sometimes life gets busy, I accidentally

Not did you respond?

I think I just responded with something innocuous like thanks and best of luck. So that was my week in dating. Okay, it is time to introduce today's guest, doctor Yelena Ketchmanovich, otherwise known as doctor k. She is a clinical psychologist and also an adjunct professor at Georgetown University in the

There are few things that's successful, it's called them successful online daters are doing differently, and first of all, what they're doing is that they are taking it seriously for various reasons. A lot of people tend to approach it kind of almost with ambiguity, with ambivalence.

They are ambivalent about it.

You know, they might want to find a partner, but maybe it's not the right time for them their life. Maybe there's still a little bit of embarrassment or stigma about finding partner through online means.

There are a.

Lot of these, as we know, online and platforms and apps. I mean, there's so many of them that it's almost hard to be serious about any single one because you know, you start this one and that's maybe not going that well, and then you try another one and next thing, you know,

Seriously, right.

And people you know will also kind of have hazardly write their profile and maybe just put a couple of pictures, you know, just pick them up, not really vet them with their friends, not take time to maybe even you know, choose the best photo of a recent photo hopefully or even professionally take and photo and you know, not take time to be thoughtful and deliberate and sucsynct in their profile, especially with.

Apps where you're allowed to write very little.

As we know, uh, it's even more important right to be to be you know, clever and maybe a little funny and and and to be just really also thoughtful and deliberate and honest about who you are and what your interests and qualities are, and also very much about what you're looking for. So I think there's successful daters are first of all clear themselves that they're not ambivalent, they're clear what they want, that what they're looking for, and then they take that step very seriously.

I mean, it's you know, uh, this may be a.

Myth that oh well, the only you know, dating shouldn't be that much work, right if life is going to find me, it's going to find me, and all these myths that we have about dating in general.

But you know, in truth, you know, it is like like big a job.

You know, you have to put time and effort and deliberation in it if you're going to have more success.

Should we just be picking one app and just committing to that app as opposed to like some of your clients who are on five or different.

Apps, I recommend. I mean, this is just my rule of time, no more.

Than two at the time, because anything more than that ends up becoming this overwhelming choice. Right, even without one app, depending how you use it, you can get into this paradox of choice. Like paradox of choice is a psychological phenomena very well described and researched originally by doctor Schwartz

I can relate to that because I feel that I have seven or eight interests going on at once, and I find myself in quite an engaging conversation with each of them. But I also have four children, and I'm very busy, and I might not realize that I've let a conversation fizzle out until I maybe get a random piece of communication from that guy six weeks later, are you ghosting me? And I'm like, oh my goodness, I really I actually really liked him, but it just got too overwhelming, the choice.

Too much, and it is really too much. You know, in a Russian terms, we are not designed to be able to actually make sort of you know, rationally best choice among you know, one hundred detergents, let's say, or you know, one hundred and fifteen profiles day right. And there's there's a very recent study from Touch researchers. Doctor punk is a lead author, that actually simulated swiping in their lab and they absolutely found, you know, this paradox

So they were just ending up in this very frustrated, unhappy.

Hopeless place, and so more choice was leading to actually less success.

Right, So how much time should we actually be spending per day or per week swiping? So we're kind of not getting into that paradox of choice, and how many people should we be conversing with at any one time.

It's very hard to put exact numbers. However, again we can talk about ballparks again. You know, the trouble of a choice is not only that, you know, we don't end up being able to devote attention to the people that we might be interested in, but we also end up having harder time, you.

Know, picking We end up being more picky, we.

End up having hard time picking few people, and then we end up having harder time committing to them even short term, because we always think, oh, there must be something better, right, because there's oh, all these matches are coming. So for all those reasons, you know, it really it like sabotages even the incipient you know, new relationships with that you may be forming as you as you are talking to somebody you know, conversing via text and then

What have you told this guy versus the other guy? You know?

Have keV you know replied to that one. Oh my god, right, so short.

All the time.

Yeah, those lessons people of course never make. Oh yeah, that's right. I think we're both killty if I'm being a little bit more selective so that I don't burn out with my overload of choices. And I say, how much to say physical attractiveness playing this? I've got two questions.

Yes, yes, and it's a great question.

Again, we do some have some really interesting research in this area and it says this that not surprisingly, the first part is not surprising, the second maybe it's a little surprising. The first part is that most attractive people and richest people get contacted by far.

The most online.

Not surprising, right, so we know that now, you know,

A third guy, you know, especially.

If he's perceiving himself not maybe not as good looking, is not gonna go and and try to break into this, you know, into the situation because he has feedback from the context you see he has feedback from the situation.

You know, they don't respond. They get overwhelmed and they don't.

Respond to overwhelming majority of those pursuing them. So you have a backlog and nobody wins. It's a kind of interesting thing to think about. So I think it is worthwhile, you know, kind of trying to engage our you know, rational parts of our brain kind of preferntal cortex, and to say, you know, if I can glence anything from this profile in terms of what people have written about themselves, and you know, if I'm intrigued by that, maybe they seem witty or funny or something like that.

And maybe, you know, I'm not that.

Attracted to their photo right now, but maybe I start chatting with them and you know, I start to kind of get this sense that they have these other qualities that again, in real life we besides looks, we usually are very early on exposed to other qualities of people. You don't see an online profiles. You don't see kindness, you don't see, you know, the ability to emotion regulate, to be a good partner in a relationship.

You're not going to see any of that, right.

And that's something in real life that we see in addition to physical attractiveness. So we do take many more characteristics in consideration. So I think it behooves us, yes to you know, lower as you say, maybe a little bit lower our physical standards and see if something shows up there.

And I want to know, because Manique and I have both in lockdown and so pretty much the only dating that is available to people that are not in an intimate personal relationship, I think is how the government are talking about it is video dating or foreign dating. And I want to know, like, you know, if you've got chemistry on Zoom or whatever video chat you're using, does that generally predict chemistry when you eventually meet face to face, assuming that you.

Do, absolutely as much as just looking at profiles does not.

Predict actual physical chemistry.

You know, at every level, the chances of you actually hitting it off, you know, and feeling that click right, So the lowest start just looking at profiles. If you start texting, okay, there's little more chance, but still there's a huge gap between texting with somebody, especially casually, and you know, clicking with somebody you know physically in person. However, talking on the phone improves the chances of clicking in person. Zoom is as close as you can get to physical interactions.

So yes, zoom is.

I mean, you know, it's not perfect, but it's done close to actually meeting somebody in person and seeing how that goes. So I absolutely recommend that to my clients.

Something else I was interested in is the traditional gender roles and what that plays in online dating because something I find in my career life, I'm sort of very proactive and forward and you know, trying to be in control of things, and I find that sometimes that persona leaks into my dating life. And I'm not sure whether that's a good thing because don't guys want the chase?

Just translate Amantha. Amantha is a natural born leader, and she's just used to coordinating large groups of people into her really busy life, and I think for her it's hard for her to differentiate that in her personal life. But is that okay to appear constantly assertive? Whereas I take the more traditional role of oh, I hope he suggests the zoom and I hope he does. He hasn't suggested one. And Amantha is like, you know, if I'm free at twelve oh five, I'm going to get into zoom with me.

So, you know, excellent questions, and I have a couple of answers to that. My first gun reaction is is if you are a certain kind of person, then there's really no point hiding it, even early on, because eventually that guy, let's say, either likes a certain women or he doesn't, you know, and so you know, pretending I think even a little bit that oh, you know, you need to chase me, and I am somewhat kind of passive or whatever.

It's just you know, my work for short term.

But eventually it's not gonna work because you know, there's some guys who you know, don't go for that, and there are plenty of guys who do. So being yourself from the beginning is a much much better approach.

That said, I think that a huge trouble.

We get ourselves in when online dating is texting via app or maybe once you exchange phone numbers, texting for really long periods of time before meeting each other meeting, and this can be even either be a zoom or in person. Right, That's that's the I think the biggest problem that I see that people get into into these you know, they call that conversations.

They're not really conversations.

The texting conversations you know, with this guy and number guy number one, and two and three and four and five, and then I'll you know, I always ask my clients and so how many.

Have you actually met?

Well, you know, nobody in the last couple of months, So what is it this all for?

Right?

So, if after you know, a couple of days of you know, conversing via text, via app, uh, the other person hasn't suggested that you meet again virtually on in person suggested suggested, because that's the only way you're going to know if there's any promise here, if there's any click. Otherwise it's waste of everybody's time and emotional energy, honestly, right, So it's.

Really I think it doesn't matter you know who you are.

If the other person hasn't suggested, if you again want to take this seriously and want to increase your chances, then just suggested, and you know, it's of course okay. If the other person says, I am really busy, maybe not this week and next week. But if they start saying that again and again, and they start wiggling, you know, not replying or wiggling out of.

The answer or keep postponing, you have your answer.

And I imagine, like, because I find when I'm messaging with someone, I feel myself starting to project these imaginary qualities onto them, which is obviously very unhelpful. I'm assuming that's why messaging back and forth is just not a helpful way to go.

That's one of the big reasons, and there's actually some interesting research about that as well. We absolutely create this you know, imaginary it's called hello Hello effect.

We create this image.

A perfect image that I had, and we are more likely much more likely to get disappointed because nobody can live up to this fantastical image.

And I know, I know.

Manique had one final question.

Okay, so this is something that I struggle with. Okay, I made a in a bar, and I feel I can present myself quite confidently, and we get talking, and then my hope is that they get to know me, they get to know my situation, and then they say, once you know, it's clearly more than just meeting in a bar, they then find out that I have four

Again, wonderful question, and that comes in play in all kinds of situations because you know, what I want to emphasize.

Is we all have baggage. I mean, you know, you might say, oh, that's a lot.

A lot of baggage is for kids, but that's also something that makes you a really interesting person who obviously you know, has has juggled so much in her life. So you you know, immediately somebody might think, oh my god, she's amazing. She's able to have, you know, a career and for children, and you know, imagine what kind of qualities she must bring to the world, right, she must

That said again, because so many.

Cues are missing from texting unless directly asked. I think that some of these somewhat bigger revelations are best left for meeting.

Again, I would normally say, face to face meeting. Now we can say zoom. You know.

I just think again that that any of these more revealing, more intimate visis of information. You know, I just better communicated and received when we can see each other as facial expressions.

So that's I mean, kind of again, rule of time, the exceptions.

But I would say, I ask you directly, I guess you.

Have to then you have to. Yeah, I mean, well you don't. You don't have to.

I mean, people do lie. But of course that's not ever a good idea because people will find out the truth eventually.

Right.

So, actually, with my children, you can hear them from the next neighborhood.

That's nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with that.

You could you could just be like a politician, Manique, can just evade the question and answer the question you want to answer.

That's true. That is true.

We are so out of time that has flown by. I just want to say thank you so much for your time and insight. Manique and I are definitely going to be better off. So, Renique, I loved that chat. I want to know for you, what's the biggest takeout for you from that interview.

I would have to say what resonated with me was her suggestion that we contain our search to maybe one or two apps. I think that really resonated with me for the simple reason I find that even if I find a potential suitor that really hasn't showed any signs of not being so, I kind of can tend to lose interest because I've got seven or eight going at once.

How many apps are you on at the moment.

Oh, several? You know. Sometimes I'll focus on one, sometimes I'll barely focus on four. But I think now I'm going to contain it to one or two and just really make a pact with myself to be a committed data to follow these communications through.

I think for me, the thing that I found most encouraging was about zoom chemistry translating to real life. Because right now we're in Melbourne, we're in lockdown, we're not allowed to go on face to face eights and I've been doing a lot of zoom dating and I do always question, how does the chemistry translate, Will it translate? So I liked that she felt very confident that it would.

Yeah, And I think that's really important for us to have that confidence because we are in lockdown. We probably are having multiple zoom dates with the one person, so we can really maybe perhaps build a false sense of who that person is if it isn't translatable, and get into deep so to speak, and then be really disappointed in real life. So it's reassuring to know that perhaps that won't be the case.

So one of the things that we're going to do with How to Date is that Monique and I are going to have a regular segment called the hot Tip segment, where one of us will share something that has been a super valuable strategy or technique that we've been using in our own lives. So Monique, I've got something to share today.

Okay, good? Yeah, because you know, I don't I think I've had any successful techniques this week, so I want to hear your.

Tip, all right. So one of the things that I struggle with is that I've been doing a lot of zoom dating, and I can pretty quickly see if there's a spark there or feel if there's a spark there, but then it gets really awkward to end it. I find that they sort of like most of my zoom dates have been going for about an hour or.

So, right, that's a long time.

That's a long time, particularly if you know that there's no spark. So to be a bit more efficient with the zoom date my hot tip. And I haven't tried this yet. This is more something I'm going to try

I love that, you know, I'll tell you why. I love it. It's sufficient, but I also like it because it's just something you would not do in your twenties. It's very assertive, and I think that's actually very sexy. So and it's fun. It's playful almost, So I'd love to see how you go, and i'd be interested to see what that does to the guy and how he feels being put on the clock, so to speak.

Yeah, I know, I'll have to report back on that one, and I appreciate your feedback. Assertive and sexy, they're good words. I'm hoping it's not offensive.

No, not at all. I think that people liked to not have their time wasted.

Yeah, awesome, Okay, well I'm going to report back on that one.

I can't wait.

All right, So that is it for today's show. If you have enjoyed how to Date, why not share it with other people that you've think could benefit from some of the advice that we are offering. And if you enjoyed this episod so we would love to get your feedback. Please leave us a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listened to this show from and we will see you next time.

See you soon.