Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics used by the world's most successful people to get so much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. For the next few weeks, I am sharing some of my favorite interviews that I've conducted on How I Work in the last two and a half years of running
this podcast. So forward today, I am very excited to replay my interview with Rachel Botsman. Now, I've had her on the show twice and this is the very first time I had her on the show, and I got so much positive feedback on this interview. I seriously had so many people write to me to say how many great tips they got from this episode. So I'm hoping that you will feel the same way at the end
of this show. Now, if you don't know who Rachel Batsman is, she is a world or an owned expert on technology and trust and the author of two best selling books. Her first book was called What's Mine Is Yours, which was all about collaborative consumption and her second book, Who Can You Trust, explores how technology is transforming trust and what this means for life, work, and how we
do business. Rachel is a lecturer at Oxford University and has been recognized as one of the most creative people in business by Fast Company and as one of the
fifty most influential management thinkers in the world. So we cover so much ground in this interview, ranging from how the weather affects her productivity, through to her very unusual but very awesome way of crafting presentations, and finally, before we go to the interview, if you're enjoying how I work, I love it if you could take five seconds out of your day to leave a review in Apple Podcasts
or wherever you're listening to this too. It might be just a star rating perhaps or maybe a few words. I love getting this feedback. It really is awesome, And thank you to the hundreds of people that they've done so it's super lovely and generous of you, and it helps other people discover how I work too. So on that note, let's head to Rachel to hear about how she works. Welcome to the show, Rachel, it's a pleasure to be here now I've heard you referred to as a digital philosopher, not.
A title I gave myself, other people gave me, I think in the absence of titles. You know, for some reason people they don't want to call me an author or a teacher or whatever it is. But it's actually a very beautiful title because I think I've researched deeply the role of philosophers in society, not just what philosophy is, and a lot of it is giving people frameworks and lenses to view the world a little bit differently or
to simplify very complex things. And I guess that's what I do, is I study structural shifts enabled by technologies that are having a huge impact in your lot, on your our lives. So it's a big compliment. Even if it sounds very PONZI, I.
Think it's very appropriate. And and your most recent book, Who Can You Trust, came out I think late last year, is.
That right, Yeah, so it came out Who Can You Trust? Question marks, Yes, it came out in October. And then I had the bright idea that I will simultate, I would simultaneously launch it across three continents, thinking this would be very good in terms of focus and momentum, underestimating that that is physically quite gruelling.
I'm really keen to delve into the writing of the book. So I want to go back in time, back to when the publishers said, yes, let's do this book, and talk me through the writing the creation of.
A book like this, I might be slightly different from authors, but by the time I go to a publisher, the book is fully pretty fully formed in my head, like the argument, the stories. And so I wrote my first book, What's Mine Is Yours in two thousand and nine, so this was a pretty big gap. So I was thinking about it for about five years. So I hate the proposal process, just to be honest with you, like proposals are very strange, like a mixture of a marketing document
and trying to show your voice. But then once they said to the publisher's Penguin, once they say go I think I finished in seven months, we start to finish. And then with everything that started to go on with Brexit and the US elections, they actually chopped. So I was meant to deliver in April, and then they said, no, you are to deliver end of January, So they chopped so I had to write really fast, and at first when they said that, I was like, there's no way
this is going to happen. And it was good in a way. I mean, I think it was a little too much pressure. But it's always interesting what those time constraints can do.
Wow. And so what did a typical day look like during during what is a very time constrained for a few months to write a full book in So what does a typical day of writing look like for you when you're in that phase?
Yeah, I mean, as I said, I'm probably I don't know if this is different from some authors, and that a lot of the interviews were done. And one of the things I find is absolutely keys When people say to me, I just can't finish the book, I'm like, we'll have you cleared your schedule. And by clearing the schedule,
I mean nothing. I mean, it's got to be like your kid's life and death, your health, like a ball meeting you have to absolutely legally attend, because even when you have like a one hour meeting or an interview,
you change your state. And so I found that focus absolutely critical to find that momentum and to get frustrated and bored with the material, but to keep forcing yourself to come back to it because you hit these walls, and if you've got other things going on, they're the excuse or distraction to actually not deal with the tough parts that you're trying to push through in the material.
So would you write for eight hours a day? Like, what would that look like? No?
I mean I think you have what I call, for lack of better term, big stride days. So you have days where and you don't know when they're going to come. So it's not like you can say, well, you know, a researcher for four days, it's gonna be a big stride date. You just sit down and it's like a powerhouse. It's just you forget going to the toilet. You've just it's like you can do four or five thousand words.
So I've never been one of these people's like I'm going to do fifteen hundred words a day, because sometimes some days you'll write two hundred words. But it's the key section of the book. So I find those goals quite artificial, you know, if you're moving at the right pace. So one of the things that I will set is like chapter goals, Right, So I will wake up. I now have children, so this privilege of the six to nine slot, which is absolutely precious for me when it comes to writing, has gone.
So the six to nine am slut.
Yeah, So because I used to go to bed and think about it and write and then want to wake up and write, and I could do more in those three hours than I could do for the rest of the day. And when I first have my son, to be honest, I was quite resemful that and I thought, well, you know, I'm never going to find that productivity again. And then you get to a place of acceptance where it's like, well, you know your children are there and they don't have any understanding around this, and you have
to drop them off at school. So one of the tricks I've found is how you settle, how you start is really key to the rest of the day. And a really easy trick I learned is if you're in flow the day before, don't finish the paragraph, so like get halfway through the paragraph and then kind of write the next sentence. And it's really easy to pick up. Days where you've like completed something and you're starting again, they're harder because you're kind of starting the engine from scratch.
It's interesting. We were talking about Adam Grant before we started recording, and he gives us the exact same technique where he will kind of finish. I think Ernest Hemingway described it like packing on a downhill slope or something like that. That's interesting to hear that that works for you as well.
And so you.
Mentioned like the six to nine am slot when you're a mom, that's gone, and I've definitely experienced that myself. So what replaced that.
Well, it's not just what replaced that. The other thing I think people underestimate is that six to nine slot requires a lot of energy, and you've probably experienced if you're not present for them, or if you're on a rush, they move backwards, they take their clothes off, the thing happens, right, So it's saying like the these hours are yours and then whatever you do, how you switch from that mode
to this concentration mode is really important. So I don't know, maybe it's because I'm British, but the team making the process of making tea properly making tea in a teapot and sitting down and drinking it, and then I always try and read something that is not mine that I think is brilliant, and I'll have a stack of things and it quietens you down, especially if it's me in a racy morning, or there's something that happened that you can't control. And so really what you're doing is controlling
your state. And anything can happen on the way to work or the drop off of the kids, but you're saying, I'm in control of that because I have these mechanisms and tricks and food and drink and listening as well. So I found like podcasts or listening to other books, not so that you're totally immersed in it, but you've switched mode in a very conscious way.
So the tea, the reading something that's quite inspiring and powerful, has that almost become like a ritual to get you into that sort of work state or a flow state.
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean the other thing is I have I write with a pan and pen a lot. So the other thing is I will write a list of things that I've got to get through. And you know, when you're in writing mode, like I've got to read this paper, I've got to whatever it is, but it's
still a to do list. And then it's also I literally write the time the day where I'm going to deal with other things, and like that's the religion, that's the discipline, right, Like especially on the days where were like I really don't want to write, like the temptation to just shot for shoes or do email. I always know when things are going really bad because I do invoicing, which I hate. And it's also not been too harm with yourself, like those days your mind is doing something.
I really believe this, it's tripping for a reason, and you kind of have to let it do that. But also know when okay, I've done that now for three days in a row, there's no more billing to be done. It's back to Yeah, I want to come back to the big stride days. And I'm curious if you've ever thought about what are the precursors to a big stride day?
Have you ever thought what if they all got in common? I have.
Sleep number one. It's like absolutely key, like when you ironically it's when you're not thinking about the work and you're well rested. And there's a difference I think between they don't often all for me anyway, they don't happen on a Monday, so it's not about the weekend of recharging and resting. It's just literally you've slept really well. So I think a lot of it is tied to
your physical mental state. They often come when you've been wrestling with something, so especially when you're trying to really get to the heart of something quite complex. I often find they come also when you've been inspired by something, and it can be something very small, like you read a sentence or so it's they're the consistent conditions. Weather for me also is really big, so I write really well when it's raining. I think it's because there's.
Nowhere else to go and.
Well suited to the UK climate. But if you look on it's the most beautiful day, you know, you'll think, when can I go for that walk? Or maybe I'll read outside in the sunshine. So it's like this inward focusing.
The impact of the rain that's fascinating. It kind of gets you focused because there's nothing else to do to procrastinate on outside. Yeah, and I want to know, like you talked about invoicing being the kind of thing that you know you might go to or you're in sad, really very very sad, very understandable when you're trying to
tackle a tough task. How how do you like, do you have you know, anything that you do or rules that you set yourself or tricks that you that you use to stay focused on tasks that can be hard to push through and try to sort of push out the various digital distractions that are out there.
I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it's it's really difficult. And but this is the most basic advice. The way you start your day, you will continue. So I call it like that monkey brain that jumping right. So if you are going through the check Twitter, check Instagram, check LinkedIn, check email check blah blah. You you you've put yourself physically in this racing mode. I mean, I don't understand neurologically what's going on, but you understand physically you feel
very different. And so I think this. I I'm not a believer that you get everything out the way. You know, so some people and it works to some people, like I'm gonna do email eight to nine and then it will be a clean slate. There's usually something in that email that comes up that you have to deal with, or that bothers you, or that requires more than five minutes to answer. So the way you start your day really sets the rest of the day. And that's become
far more disciplined around that. And even like I can't believe for years my phone was my alarm. It's such a stupid thing to do, with all due respect, it's so it's like, you know, it's like waking up and having a can of coke there, Like it's just there's
no way I could resist the temptation. And I thought I was being super efficient because I thought, you know, if I set my arm for six fifteen, my kids typically wake up at six forty five, I can do half an hour of emails and wow, I'm super mom, And then they wake up and everything's clear, and then I can have their breakth make their life, you know, like listen to the pace of it. There's no way you're gonna start your day and be able to Yeah, or some people maybe, but not for was there was.
There a moment in time where you know, you had your phone as your alarm and you're checking emails first thing in the morning, and it kind of dawns on you what am I doing? Or was it a gradual shift?
I think I realized it, but I didn't change the behavior for a long time. I think I realized it when I am really shortsighted, so I have to put my lenses into sea and I remember like the having turning the phone on. I sleep with airplane mode, right, so at least it wasn't dinging and really and it was pitched back in the room. My husband's asleep and it's like, what I happened to my face? And I'm like what, I haven't even put my lenses in, Like do you know what I mean? Like this is not
how human beings are meant to wake up. My feet haven't even touched the ground. And one one of the things I try. You know, I'm not a particularly religious person, but every morning, when my feet touch the ground, I try and ask myself, like why am I doing this? One? Am I grateful for? What do I want to achieve today? And even I think that's my one minute mindfulness, that's
all I can do. But it's really you know, when you come back to the end of the day and you think, like did I do that to I achieve that? How off balance was I? And it's a for me, It's been a form of self reflection that if you keep missing it, there's probably something physical or time based that you have to address to Maybe you don't have enough support, or you don't have enough support the right
end of the day, maybe you're eating wrong. Whatever it is, there's something structurally you can probably change.
So now I assume you've got an old fashioned ALAM clock. Next I do.
Yeah, and my son's learned how to work it, so it went off like four am the other day. I was like, okay, bring about the phone.
Gosh, I love that. Yeah, oh wow. And so you're saying, like it's really important to set your day up well and how you wanted to flow. And so with that, what time would you first check your inbox or Twitter feed or Instagram feed on a good days.
It's different now because I'm not in that writing mode. It really, I mean, it really does switch, right. So there's no way I stuck to these rules when I was on the book tour. I mean, you're like responding to media inquiries. So I think this is one of the key things is you don't have to be in this state all the time. But when you're working on a project that has a massive artifact or just by design requires concentration. You're going to have to redesign and
restructure your day. Now it looks quite different. So now I'm actually back into this, Like I'll do emails nine to ten, but then I won't get into the habit. I'll turn it off and then I'll probably check it again around four o'clock and people who know me and know who need to get hold of me, they will text me. So that's the thing, Like, there are ways that people can get hold of you if it's really truly time sens its.
That's very disciplined. So checking emails twice a day, Yeah, that's cool. I want to switch gears and talk about presentations because you do a lot of presenting, a lot of keynote speeches. I would imagine that that's probably a large part of a typical week for you. Would that be fair to.
Say yes and no. So the other thing I learned is that when you look at when I look at my calendar, I should say and you can go, oh, right, like, so I'm going to do four speeches this month, and there's oh, it looks so nice, evenly distributed, you know, one in Los Angeles, one in Munich, like one per week for me, it's not the way to structure time because speech they require Yes, you do it a lot,
but they still require prep. Then you've got the travel, then you've got the delivery, and then you've got the return trip home. So unless they're in domestic, even if they're domestic, I mean they're Melbourne based, it's four days. So if you've got four speeches, it's actually a month gone. So I've now found I think of them as delivery weeks. I think of them as sort of outwork facing weeks where I know I'm going to be speaking and interacting with a lot of people and then I will have
so I clustered them. So like last week I had seven speeches, but I won't do any now for three. And on the calendar it's blocked teaching prep because I'm about to deliver a new course at Oxford and that blocking has been and the blocking I still don't think I've got right because I've been blocking in weeks and I think I have to be blocking in a Fortnite fortnightly
even though I'm not working on another big book. So yeah, so like article to write block and then I'll do like meeting days as well.
Hmm, okay, so kind of batching it, I guess is yeah, yeah, I want to look at how you prepare for a speech, and I'm curious as to how that's changed in the last five years, because I've heard you talk about how you feel like you've learnt so much around giving a good speech and how you do prepare. So can you talk me through what does that look like? How do you prepare for a speech?
So I think the main I can't watch early speeches like it's quite for me. I can see how clumsy they are, and in terms of the preparation, and I've found that you can speak to the event organizer and with all due respect, they'll tell you the number of people that's going to be in the room, and they'll tell you what the room's like, and they'll tell you
what they wanted to talk about. But then I always know if I'm talking to the right person because I say, well, why do you really want me there, and why have you put me in this particular slot? And how do you want your audience to feel? And this was a really new question that I started asking. And if they said I don't really know, then you're not speaking to
the right person. You're not speaking to the person that said we should have Rachel here, and so insisting that you have that briefing with that person is really important because otherwise you're going in dark. So that's been really key, is really using briefings in the right kind of way. The fearing question is really interesting because people can say, well, I'll They'll often say I want to talk about trust
in the digital aid whatever that means. If you say, well, how do you want people to feel, they're then really thinking about the state of the audience. So they'll say. Some people say I want them to for challenged or I want them to for inspired. They're two really different speeches, and there you get your guidance on tone and content and delivery. So that's been really key, is the briefing. I'll then put something together so I kind of have this.
It might be worth describing actually because people say, well, how do you put speeches together? And I found so I write blocks around particular examples and stories. So Facebook's a really good example. A lot of people want me to talk about Facebook because of Cambridge Analytica, and so I'll have speaking points in a Google doc and then every time I think of a new point or it
changes on stage. I edit that in the Google doc, and then I have a slide library that is like if you saw the organization, it's so anal like it's just it's quite I actually it's quite beautiful in terms of information design, not to I didn't do it so, but it makes it so easy that I can look at it. And I think it comes from writing, is that you're literally, oh, pull that story, and I'll pull that story.
So how's that organized? That slide file? Can you can you kind a picture of that?
So it's on drop Box practically, and like the highest folder. So my previous work was all called sharing, so that's all in one thing. And then the new work's called Trust. And then you go in and it will have like core concepts, and then you go into core concepts and it will have like core things that I've written about that sort of my ideas, so like trust leaps being one of them, or risk propensity or whatever it is,
trust evolution. And then you go into that folder and it's got all the slides and stories attached to that concept. Another folder will have other people's quotes. So these are other people that I find interesting that have spoken about vulnerability or trust or risk. Another folder will be all organized by company. Example, so Uber will have a folder, Facebook will half a folder, V and B will have a folder.
This is what I mean, right.
And then so and things can live in two places, but only two places. That's another rule because otherwise you end up with too much duplication. And then I have a really important folder which is evolving ideas. And these are things that really, as I'm saying, this material being tested. So this is these ideas I'm testing on the stage that I know are not right material ready to be designed. And this is when i've I know it's working. So
very Signful describes it as fishing. So as a comedian, you fish and you feel when you've got a bite, and the work that you do on stage is turn that bite into actually catching the fish. And then for me, because slides and stories are so important, I then can get to the stage of I know how this is visualized.
Great, So it's a real.
Process behind it. So it makes it really easy because and I have a rule where I always test something new in a speech always, but if you're testing more than twenty percent, it's not going to go great. So when organizers say I want something completely new. I'm like, you don't like this has taking years, Like it takes about ten speeches to get one point, like to know
how to land it. So this is like one thing I say to people when they're giving speeches, like, I'm like, so you think you're going to stand up there and a lot of people just read the speech in their head as well. They won't even read it out loud, and you think it's going to come out like a ted talk, like which wrought you respect? Like this is ten thousand hours of practice, right, it's really getting to a place where you can have no notes because the
story it's in you. The points are in you. So it's a long winter way of they saying, so I'll put something together and then I won't think about it, and then I'll come back to it, and then you have to send it, usually in a couple of days in advance, which is silly exercise because then on the way there you're really refining the points and so and then I get there and I'm usually I can to add a slide or move a slide, but.
Yeah, definitely, How do you translate what the organizer will say about I want people feeling this way with picking out the points and the slides. Like in your system, have you got emotion tags as well?
That's a really good question. No, I don't have emotion tags. But so last week I was with one of the banks that's in the Royal Commission and it was a really tough speech because you're talking about trust in a company where trust is in crisis. So you look at some of the stories and you're like, I can't use that because it's funny, or I can't you know, it actually takes material off the table, which can be quite helpful. And the other strange thing you find, I mean, it's
just like writing music, right. You could open with this story and then finishes this story, and then in another speech you flip those things so you're closes, you're opening, and they will feel completely different. The bookmarking is key, so knowing how you're going to open and knowing how
you're going to close. And I you know, I've been in audiences where people Simon Sinks a great example where they're like, I've seen them open like that five times, like it's a criticism, and I'm like, because he knows exactly where to take the audience. From that point, it's like he's opening melody and he's grounding himself on the stage, and you will always go somewhere quite different because he's listening and he's feeding off what's going on in the room.
So I think the number of opening stories you can have is quite limited. But where you go from that, that's the black canvas.
M that's really interesting. I want to talk about how you prioritize incoming requests. I imagine because of your profile, you're probably getting a lot of people asking you for things to write, things to say, things to be part of things. How do you decide what to say yes to versus what to say no to?
It's funny. It's one of my goals I've been working on this year, not saying no, but finding myself lesson situations where I'm like, why did I say yes? To be honest, when there's an email that can I pick your brain or it's really really long. I get a lot of requests from students doing masters or dissertations that aren't part of the course that I teach that you have to say no to, and I always try and direct them to a resource. I always try and close
the loop and be helpful. You also get a sense, I'm getting a better sense when someone's quite hard to shut down, and then being more comfortable that you don't have to be the person to reply, so you put that on someone on your team. But the thing that I've really started to ask myself is what is the intentions of this person? Or why are they asked me to write this piece? So why they asked me to
do this interview? And if there's an alignment, So you really believe in what this person's doing and you think it's good for your work and you think it's interesting, then you consider it. That makes it so I think sometimes you're like, oh, can you get can you write
a piece for the Guardian? Okay? And you're like, oh, yeah, you know New York Times should totally do that, But then you know they A really good example is they might be pushing for an op ed on Facebook that's completely contrary to your opinion, and you get halfway through and you're battling with the editor and you're thinking, well, why didn't I ask them where they were coming from?
Because then you have to abandon ship midway through. So being okay, just saying no to people that really actually don't value your time because they're just saying pick your brain, finding a way to help people when they shut them down, and also making you know, a clean.
No, how do you do that?
So often it's better when it doesn't come from me. She's just not available, no reason.
Ye, So this will be your assistant.
Yeah, especially with speaking request because if you say something like even something like I'm really sorry she can't attend, what is that why? Or like if we sweeten the deal she, you know, and then you have to ask yourself, you know, if they come back and they said X and then they double the amount, you've put yourself in a very tricky situation because then you've said no, and then you're showing all money can actually change that, which
is not good for anyone. Then really, you know. The other thing on the calendar is like absolute no go days kids, first day of school, like all these things. It doesn't matter what it is. It's different for different people. No go days are no go days, and sometimes you have to invent a nogator, you know, like if someone doesn't really if it's a really tricky note, I'm really sorry, but one of the kids is the lead in a play.
I love it. I love it. And do you have of like any parenting hacks that you've learned as a working mother that just serve to help things run a lot more smoothly at home. You've got you've got two kids under five? Is that right?
One?
Six? Now?
Do you know? The funny thing is, I think the hats get harder as they get older because they get smarter. I think when they're under the age of three is distraction hacks, and they don't have a sense of time, so you can make it up to them. I've realized even now, you know in six is such a beautiful age, but they start to develop empathy, they do have an awareness of the day of the week. So consistency as much as you can is I found is really important.
So knowing them knowing when I can pick them up from school is a big one. So it's on you know when mummy is going to pick you up, the way you spend that time, So like five to seven is their time. And I always find the wills come off if you organize something you think can squeeze it in, because then they're like, I waited for this time. You know you're it's not fair to them, you're really cheating, So it's an obvious thing, but being present when you're
really present is quite key. I am. I think the one thing I've really got right is I'm very protective of my weekends, so I really one try not to work on the weekends and they know that I'm always there, holidays are not always possible. And then getting really smart around where you need support and not feeling guilty about that it's so easy to say, it's really hard to do, and even finding the right kind of support on the right person that doesn't support you and doesn't judge you.
Is also becoming more and more interested in my work. So I find showing him things saying this was a this was really exciting, that said, oh, I've got to go and do I've got to go on a plane and do this thing. So I've got to go to
Asthma next week is a really good example. So I've been talking to him about mountains and what he thinks mountains look like in summer and what an ideas festival is, what does he think that is And so he now wants to take photos of the mountains to see if it's you can engage them in your journey without them being.
Physically there's that's lovely.
Yeah.
I was in Vancouver for work a couple of months ago, and in the lead up, we're talking about what are the animals in Canada? And I bought my daughter's for this toy moose and I take photos of it, like having a drink and on the toilet and just kind of building up this story about this moose. And then when I got home, it was so much excitement and yeah, just something something to kind of share about where you were.
I like that, Yeah, they don't understand you're tired. That hack does not. So I always if I'm really honest with them, and I say that I'm just really tired. Can you give me a break or can you just follow the instruction because I have nothing left? They're like, I don't care whether you're tired.
So true, so true. I have one question before we move into kind of some rapid fire finished questions, thinking about how you work. What's something that would surprise people about what you do, how you do what you do and get it done.
Surprised people how visual it is. I think that's I don't start in words, I start in pictures and concepts. And I think this because I was trained as an artist. You know that's so I fine arts?
Is that right?
I did? I started Fine Arts, so I will offer and like so at the moment, I'm researching the relationship between transparency and trust. If you read the academic papers like bored and turned off and completely confused within like with auty respect about three hours. But if you actually start to look at how transparencies represent an architecture and how it's represented in films and design, and you start
to create this board and ideas start to emerge. So the process is extremely visual, even though the output is more wordspace.
That's very interesting. I love that. Okay, let's finish with some some rapid fire questions about what are the things that you're consuming, because I think that's something that people struggle with, is that there's so much information out there and it's hard to know what is the best stuff to feed into your brain. So to start with podcasts, what's a podcast or two that you're really loving At the moment.
I'm almost embarrassed to with this. I'm listening to where should we begin by Esther Forrell. I think it's a really I started listening to it for format, not for relationship advice, but this idea that you could let listeners into a very private window, and that she's kind of this pattern. She does pant and recognition, right, so she recognizes what's going on between the couples, and she's explaining that to you. And then I got like really absorbed
in it because I don't know if you've listened to it. Yeah, I mean it's restored my faith in the ability of relationships of all kinds to rescue and be restored out of all kinds of places of pain and anger. And so the power of really talking and listening. I think what that to each other is what that podcast is about, versus affairs and relationships. So I love Guy Ass. I think he's genius at what he does on NPR. So how I built this is just great. I love those
They're great for the bus. I was actually listening to Adam Grant's Work Life, Work Life. I really enjoyed Revisionist History. Malcolm Gladwell's first season didn't quite get into the second season, and now I found actually I'm listening to a mixture of audible books, audio books, and podcasts. So I'm listening to Jordan Peterson's Ten Laws or something. It's very dark. And then this is going to sound really weird, But
I will listen to books that I read. Why is that so I'm listening to Yva Harari Sapiens, which I must have read twelve months ago. It's either because you're like, I think I've forgotten something that was quite key. But when you listen, you pick up a different thread. So for me, the thread that I've picked up, I think you hear it at a more macro level then you
read things. So as I'm listening to it, I've picked up this idea that you know, when you create a digital tool and society becomes more efficient, then civilization becomes smarter about how to use that time. And if you look through the history of time, every time we've created something that is a device or a tool to make things more efficient, man has not filled that time wisely.
And that's so interesting, right, because when everyone's like, oh, this addiction to technology, and it's like, what innately human beings have. We got this desire to automate make things more efficient, but we can't be still and be bored and rest. There's this innate quest to feel time. So that's what I've got from listening to the book.
M I like that. That's really cool. E newsletters. Are there any a newsletters that you subscribed to that you actually look forward to receiving?
There's one?
What is that?
I generally hate them, really do. I don't know why. It's Jesse Hemple, she writes for Wired. I think you have to be selected to go on her list, so she knows that. I think she's only ever writing for about two hundred people, and it's not promotional in any way. She literally says, here's the five most interesting things I've read this month. And she has a radar across topics and publications that are very different from my own. Here's the one thing I've written. I think it's like, here's
something I heard that completely disagreed with. It's she's not asking for feedback. It's very much one way, and so I think that what the reason why it works is she knows exactly the purpose of that newsletter that she reads. Really why write widely, and that people want that kind of curated information. It's not laid out in any way. It's all text based. So I find that. Yeah, but generally news autists just feel self promotional.
I like the idea of a curated list that it's being said to Wow.
Yeah, that's that's very cool.
Do you then forward that onto a lot of people? That's one of the things in the club, and you can't let anyone else in. That's that's really interesting. Finally, books, what's what's a good book? A physical book or a kindle book that that you've read lately that you got a lot out of.
I don't do a kindle, so it's always coffee. Well, I have to read a lot of proofs because people ask for blurves, which it's very a privileged because you're seeing the book in its world states. So then I have to read the PDF or audio. What have I read recently? So I'm reading on my best I table at the moment, I'm reading New Power, a book by guy called Jeremy Hyman's and Henry Timms. It's very closely
related to my works. So it's about how power is moving from institutions to these distributed movements and models, and it's really interesting. I just received a copy of Hugh Mackay's new book. I'm rereading a book called More Human by Steve Hilton because I'm really interested about size and scale and when things lose their humanness and whether there's kind of a perfect state around that. I have the
Jennifer Egan book Manhattan Beach. So the way I read, I should explain I read one thing through to completion, and then I'm dipping into other things. So I'll probably get through four or five books a month.
That's pretty good.
It wow, that's not and that's and then I'll have work reading as well. I have to do. That's cool.
What great recommendations. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. I so loved learning about how you work.
It's awesome. Now it makes me sound really aibly attentive. It's more fluent than that. It's just it's the organization of information people. I think when you lose work, you then have to spend a lot of time recreating it. So how you capture Even after every speech, I write notes on what went wrong and what went right, because you think it's going to stay in your mind and
it won't even a week later. So that's that's probably my biggest tip, is how you document what you've learned, what you change, and really good organization of information is really.
I love it. Well I'm going to go away and reorganize my slide day. That is it for today's show. If you liked my chat Rachel, why not hit subscribe so that you get notified when all new episodes drop. And also, if you found this interview valuable, you might want to share it with someone else that you think
could benefit. Just click the little share icon, which is a box with an arrow pointing out of it generally and share it maybe with someone else that you think could benefit from hearing Rachel and about how she works. So that is it for today's show and I will see you next time.