Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics used by the world's most successful people to get so much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day.
Today's show is a best of show because I'm taking a few weeks off How I Work, and I am very excited to share today's episode, which was one of my favorite interviews that I've done over the last two and a half years, and that was with Dan Pink. Dan is the author of six best selling books, including Drive, a Whole New Mind, and his latest book When, the Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, which spent four months on
the New York Times bestseller list. You might also be familiar with Dan through his ted talk about the Surprising Science of Motivation, which has been viewed over twenty million times times. I have been a Dan Pink fan for many, many years. I tried to get him on the show for ages before I finally secured him, so I was so excited about this chat. I just think he has such a knack for dissecting complex science and finding a way to make it not just accessible, but memorable and
impactful for his readers. And before I throw to Dan, I just want to do a shout out for everyone, all you kind people that have left reviews for How I Work. I read every single review and get all the star ratings and just thank you you lovely people. It just really does bring a huge smile to my face. I'm very, very grateful. And if you are enjoying the work that I'm doing on How I Work and you haven't left review, maybe today's the day where you might take five or ten seconds out of your day and
do that. It is so appreciated and also is a great way of helping other people find how I work. So on that note, let's head to down to hear about how how he works. Dan, Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Amantha. Good to be here. Now.
I want to start with your books, because you've written six books over around the last twenty or so years, and I want to start by understanding where do your book ideas come from, and maybe if you can talk me through how your latest book when came to.
Be right, Well, I'll start with the second question. First, this latest book when came to be largely out of frustration. I was making all kinds of timing decisions in my own life, and everything from when in the day should I exercise, when should I do my writing, and even more episodic things like when should I start a project, when should I abandon a project if that's not working. I was making these decisions in a very haphazard, ill informed way, which frustrated me. I wanted to make them
in a more intelligent way. So I looked around for guidance. It didn't exist. And then I started looking around at this wonder not even looking around, just wondering whether there was any science. And it turned out there was a lot of science on this topic. And that's how I got into that. Now that the genesis of this book is a little bit different from what often happens, which is that I have files of ideas, and when I when I say ideas, they're barely even ideas. They're just
shards of stuff. And so I will keep them in paper folders. I will keep them in drop box folders, I will keep them in email folders. I will keep them. I will use ever note, and I return to these things, you know, every few months sift through and I always have a running list of ideas of stuff I want to work on. And when I return to a lot of these ideas, they a lot of the ideas stink, so I get rid of those, and it's just a
constant turn. And my view is that in order to have a good idea, you have to have a lot of ideas, and when you have a lot of ideas, you have a lot of bad ideas. And I have a lot of bad ideas.
How do you know whether an idea is good or whether it stinks?
Great question, I'm not sure. I wish there were some kind of blood tests, something definitive like that, but there is not. Some of it is. It's actually a very interesting question on a number of different dimensions. So part of it has to do with you know, your own taste, and I think in any kind of creative endeavor, people develop taste and so something and you say, well, you know what, that's not my taste. My intuitive sense of of taste says this is not quite right. So that's
one thing. Second thing would be, is this something I really want to work on? And a lot of times, something that seems really alluring at first turns out to be deadening when you explore it a little bit more. And then another one would be I like, you know, talking to people about various ideas that I have just to hear how they react. And the reaction that I find most useful is not that's a terrible idea, that's
a good idea, but huh, that's interesting. Have you thought about X, Y or z and so something that engages people enough to ask a question.
And so with your book, when how how did you know or when did you know that you were really onto something with that?
Well, one of the things that I do is I it's another really good question. One of the things that I do when I develop a book is that I always write a book proposal. Now, typically when writers are just starting out, they do book proposals, as you know, as there have more work behind them, they need less elaborate proposals. Topic Often for me, I like writing book proposals because it's a test of an idea. And so there have been many times when I said, hey, here's
an idea. It's survived over a couple of years on the list I've marshaled some research. Hey, this research looks pretty good. And then I'll start writing a book proposal. And a book proposal is, you know, not a complicated document. It basically it says, here's what this book is about. Here's where it fits into the whole ecosystem of ideas. Here is why I'm the perfect person to write it. Here, who's here the people who are going to be interested
in a book like this, et cetera, et cetera. And there were many times when I thought I had a good idea and I started writing the book proposal and I was like, no, this is not a good idea. It didn't hang together with when it was one of the few book proposals that I've written where it just was like butter, It just smooth and creamy all the way through. And that's how I knew that I was onto a pretty good idea.
Ah, I like that. I mean, book proposals are almost like the business case of the ride as well.
I guess absolutely they are. They are more like You're totally right, they are more like a business plan than a literary product.
Yeah. And when you first released when, which I think was about a year ago, and I read it from memory like a few days after it had come out. I thought it was just such a brilliant idea for a book. And I feel like I remember you. I feel like I remember you talking in an interview quite a few months ago where when was quite hard to structure in that you went through a lot of different
drafts of the Table of contests. Can you talk me through what that process was like and how you did land on the final structure for the book.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's you know, I'm a big believe when it comes to book nonfiction books, I think I think the same thing. It's true with fiction. I'm a big believer in structure. Structure solves a lot of problems, structure makes structure helps out readers, and structure gives you a sense of whether what you have has integrity. And I tried a couple of approaches to structuring the book.
I knew there are certain like big elements that I wanted in there, but I wasn't sure, and so I went through several I don't know, maybe fifteen or so, as you say, draft table of contents, just to feel how it all to feel how it all hung together. And I just had a sense And again it goes back to one of your early questions that this is just not quite right. And once again I would bounce it off of other people, not a huge number of people, but I would say, hey, what do you think of this?
What do you think of that? And you know, and I wanted to see how other people responded, and I think I began simply saying, Okay, you know what I'm going to do. I know this is a chapter, so let me write this chapter and then put the total structure aside. But over time, if you just keep coming back to it, and keep coming back to it, and keep coming back to it, you will find the material in some ways will tell you you what the structure is. But again, not everybody agrees with me, not every rid
agrees with them. But I think structure matters enormously. And I see too many books out there that are poorly constructed, wobbly, and I think it makes it harder for readers to enjoy the book and get something from the ideas presented in it.
Couldn't agree more. And I really like the structure that you landed on. I feel like it's not like with some books you read them and it's a pretty intuitive structure. You kind of go well of course it's structured that way, but I like where you landed with when I feel like it's not the most intuitive structure, but it works really well in terms of I guess, constructing the arguments. Yeah, and I want to talk about the title as well, for when and how did the title come to you?
This is one of those titles are hard, and I've always I've wrestled with titles for various books that I've that I've that I've worked on a lot of I mean, titles are you know, mostly art, maybe is a little bit of science, and I've changed and a lot of times I've had books that start out with one title, and then as the research and writing goes on, the title changes, and the changes again and changes again, changes again. This one actually had the same title in the proposal
as it did in the final cover. The book was always called when. I'm not sure why that one held up. Whereas other books that I've had have changed their titles a lot, and we have wrestled with them. Now now occasionally now authors and publishers will do some testing, some market testing of titles, and you know, I'm I think that can be a good idea many in many cases but but I have I have read, wrestled with I
have wrestled with things. And sometimes when I go back to the both the paper and electronic files of other books, I forget I don't find them. You know. I look at a book called you know, I wrote a book called Drive about the signs of motivation. And that book was not called Drive until very close to the end. And so all my files are labeled something else you because that's what you know, whatever the title was back then.
So titles are titles are. Titles are tricky. And what I have found is that I'm much better is a common attribute of problem solving is that sometimes we're better off solving other people's problems than our own. I'm pretty good at coming up with titles for other people. I stink it coming up with titles for myself.
And I actually wanted to delve into that. I remember when I read Give and Take by Adam Grant, reading in the acknowledgments that he'd thank to you for coming up with the title for that book. And and so what is that process like when you're advising someone on a title.
Wow, that's some careful reading of acknowledgments there.
I love the acknowledgment sections of books.
Yes, so do I I actually love them too. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What was the question?
I want to know, like, what's the process that we forgotten?
Now? I was so amazed that someone had read the polishment in a book.
I feel like writers love the acknowledgment section, and being a writer, I love that section. I feel like it gives you interesting insight. But yeah, with Adam Grant's book, Give and Take, he said that he credits you with coming up for the title. And I don't know if you remember how how you did that or how that process works for you.
I do remember that particular incident because I live in I live in the east coast of the United States, Washington, d c. The federal capital of the United States of America, and I have been self employed for twenty years, and because I am a staunch believer in low overhead, I have never had an office outside of my home, and these days, for the last eight years or so, eight plus years, I have worked in the garage behind my house.
And whenever this was not probably seven years ago or so, I'd gotten to know Adam and he came over and we were talking about the idea of this particular book that he was contemplating writing, and I thought it was great. I thought it was a great topic. I thought he'd be a great person to write it. It's a book that I absolutely like at that moment, I wanted to read. So I was really excited about it. And for whatever reason, I said, hey, I think this is your title, and it ended up being the title.
So wow.
I guess I was inspired by I was inspired by his excellent idea, I think, and I also, I guess in some part of me wanted to help make this book come to fruition so I could read it.
M I did that. Did that sort of spark of inspiration just come to you or were you thinking, I guess of you know, different phrases that were in like the vernacular. Do you remember how that happened?
I don't remember that well enough. But see, I actually like trying to come up with titles, and because yeah, it's I just think it's a really interesting exercise in thinking in creativity. But it's one where if I'm not integrally involved, I probably do it a little bit better than if it's something that has that's something that has my name on it.
And so what's your starting point for that? Like, you know, if you were to give advice to a writer who's struggling with the title of their book, like, what what kind of roots would you recommend that they explore?
What I would that's another really interesting question. What I would suggest would be I'll tell you what I do. What I listen for when someone comes to me with this issue is I want to hear how they talk about it, and I want to ask them questions about it, and I want to look for phrases, words turns of phrase that somehow seem fresh and novel and interesting and
make me want to explore. And again, it's there's probably a way if I were to completely reconstruct this kind of advice, it would be a little bit more systematic than that. But but I think there's something to be said when it comes to titles for talking about your stuff out loud, not giving a speech or anything, but just telling your friend or your spouse or another writer, Hey, what are you working? Oh, it's about this, that and
the other thing. And a lot of times within that description there'll be a word or phrase that just seems really delicious, and you just take that piece of fruit up the vine.
Well, I like that. That's that's nice and I think good advice for anyone that's thinking about naming any kind of a project, whether it be a book or something else.
Yeah, and there's also there's also a there's also something to be said for generating a lot of ideas for names. So and so one thing that you can do for generating titles is just, you know, get three or four people together and say, okay, we are going to generate. We're going to sit here for half an hour and we're going to come up with sixty possible titles. And you just start like spitting things out and building up
of other people's ideas. And out of that sixty, you know, fifty of them are going to be horrible ideas, but within that remaining ten one of them might be decent.
Mm. Yeah. I want to move on to to understanding, like what are some of the practical strategies that you
apply in your own working life? And I imagine that like writing a book like When, which I feel is full of really interesting ideas but also is incredibly practical, And there's a lot of really tactical advice in the book, which I love, Like what have been some of I guess, you know, out of When or out of any of the research that you've done, all the books that you've written have been sort of the most impactful I guess, tactical things that you've changed about how you work and
how you work currently in my own life.
Yeah, So, I mean When had a lot of those. So, for instance, one of the ideas and when has to do with the pattern of our performance and our attention and our mood over the course of a day, and how we go through this day typically in three stages, a peak, a trough, and a recovery. Most of us go in that order. Night outs go in a very
different order. And I realize I'm looking at some of this research that I should be doing my heads down analytic work writing first thing in the morning, and definitely in the morning. And I change my schedule around there so that on writing days, I will set myself a word count, however many words, you know, not a lot, seven hundred words, say, and I will come into my office.
I don't come in exceptionally early. I come in at half past eight, and I'll say, okay, today I got to write at seven hundred words, and I won't bring my phone into the office with me, will not open up my email, I will not do anything until i hit those seven hundred words and then I'm free to
do other things and that. And so the idea that this peak period, this idea that the research showing that I had this three or four hour peak of vigilance and ability not to be distracted, that I shouldn't fritter that away answering email or going on Twitter or any of that nonsense. I really stuck to that and use that kind of schedule to actually write this particular book. And this is the first. Out of the six, five of them were late, only one was on time, and this was the one on time.
Oh wow, that's interesting. And how like I mean, does it require much willpower for you to stay off all those digital distractions in the morning.
I'm not a big believer in willpower. I think when you start having to use willpower, you're already using the game. What I do is is reconstruct the environment. So so for instance, as I said, I don't bring my phone in the office with me, so I can't check my phone, I can't check my text messages or anything like that. And I literally do not open up any of my email program, any of my email program. I have two computers in my office. I don't email open up the
email program. I'm either computer in my office. I just don't open it. And you know, I guess for the first few days, I get to be, you know, maybe a little bit itchy and twitchy about opening it up, but after that it just seems normal. So again, to me, the key is constructing the environment in a way to eliminate distractions. And so that's both the physical environment but
also the temporal environment. So if I come in and the environment doesn't have any distractions, and I'm doing it at the right time of day, then I have a fighting chance to get some writing done. And I'm I. Other people are different, but I am very I rely a lot on momentum. And so for me, if I do something, if I do that on day one, and then day two and then day three, I get into this rhythm where each day becomes slightly easier because I've
done something the day before. I'm not one of those you know, there are writers out there who I say, there are a couple of writers here in the United States who are also TV presenters, and two of them who I'm thinking of. I don't want to say the names because I don't want to. I actually admire what you're doing, but I don't want to be disrespectful. Is that they will during the commercial breaks write their newspaper column on their phone, just like, oh, two minutes and that let's
go to commercial. And then there's too many commercial break and then they'll they'll write a few sentences or a few you know, paragraph on their newspaper column and then oh, we're back. I could never do anything like that. Or there's another there's another fellow who very accomplished author, very smart guy, who is a he's a physician. There are a lot of physician writers out there. But you know these physicians who, oh, I'm going to write. I always
write a few paragraphs in between surgeries. That's not me.
Wow, that's yeah, that's not me either. How do you use the other two sections of your day?
I use the early to mid afternoon typically for answering email and putting. I'm a big I have a lot of files, paper files, and like filing stuff away and oh I need to scan this thing and put it into drop you know that kind of stuff that doesn't require heavy load, and then during their cover period, which is basically like the mid to late afternoon and early evening, I generally do interviews. So interviews like this one are
also even interviews when I am asking questions. So that period of the day, so the peak again for most of us early in the day, that's when we're most vigilant. We should be doing our heads down work the trough early to mid afternoon. That is a really bad time of day. Our mental performance, cognitive skills are way down.
And so I do my administrative stuff then, and then when I come out of the trough, you know, around whenever three o'clock, three thirty four o'clock in the afternoon, I tend to do interviews like this or things that require not necessarily be lockdown and vigilant, but just to be open to possibility, open to ideas a little bit more mentally loose.
And how do you manage your emails? Like I imagine you must be inundebted with them? And I remember when yeah, okay, well look I remember when I first reached out to you, which is many months ago, there was almost like this gatekeeper software that you had in place. Can you talk about that?
Yes, I do I use that. Yeah, I did that because I was just getting so many emails and I was also getting a lot of spam as well on certain email addresses that were public, and so so I just use a program called short Whale. And what that is is essential. It's just like a form, and so it says who are you, and what's the topic, and how quickly do you need a response, and then gives people a short, short, short amount of room to make
to say what they want. And I find that at I find that as a pretty effective, pretty effective system for organizing the emails that come in and also just forcing people to be brief. What I don't like is getting a one thousand word email from someone whom I've never heard of before. Very unlikely that I'm going to read that carefully. But if somebody, if a reader says, if a reader says, hey, I read your book whatever,
and I have one question. Here it is, and the email is two short paragraphs or three four sentences, yeah, I'm going to try to answer that. But if someone sends me an email saying someone says me in the email saying, I've never read any of your books, but here's my life story in fifteen hundred words and can we meet to have coffee? I'm probably going to say.
No, And I want to get into that actually, like because I imagine a lot of the emails that you receive a request for your time, And how do you, like, aside from the obvious, like, how do you decide what to say yes to and what to say no to, particularly for those opportunities that are perhaps not black and white.
That's another really great question, and I don't really have a good way to do that, and I've changed over the years, and I think it's an important question for creators and artists to ask. And I can argue both sides of it. It's at one point, at some point, it's certain moments in one's working life, it's really advantageous say yes to everything, because, especially if you're not that you know, if you're just starting out, or you know, you're trying to get your ideas out there, in some ways,
the default answer should be yes. I think that when you're actually in the act of creating something or or a little bit more established, I think in some ways the default answer should be no. And so what I've seen over the years is that, especially now because it's so distracting, and there's so much stuff coming in, is the default answer is generally going to be no. Someone has to overcome the default that it's a no.
Do you remember or I guess? Like, how do you know when when you've reached that tipping point when you should change your default from yes to no?
You don't? You don't. It's a great question, And you know there's certain moments even in and there isn't a systematic that I know of a systematic way too. There isn't a systematic way to do that, and you know, and you got to do what feels right and authentic to you as an individual as well. There's some people who love saying yes to a lot of stuff and
who love having lots of things going on. Then there are people like me who can't multitask, who don't like working on lots of parallel projects, who are you know, much more narrow in the way that they approach things.
Do you have a strategy for saying no politely that you've developed over the years?
I do you know? Because again it's like, you know, people aren't trying to be route And what I will do is I will try very hard to answer questions about the books from readers. I really do try to answer all of those. I mean, I honestly don't do it immediately, but I will often organize them into batches. Just sit down for you know, an hour or two and answer thirty or forty or fifty or sixty or one hundred emails from readers asking questions or things like that.
So I try to do that. For people who want something else, I just try to be polite and say, you know, basically what I said to you, which is that I'm terrible at doing two things at one time. I'm a terrible multitasker. I'm terrible at having parallel products going on, and right now I'm trying to focus on one or two key projects. So unfortunately I have to
say no to most things. So but thanks for contacting me, and you know, I just you know, and i'd like, you know, I just hope that you know the books that you're writing, or the film that you're making, or this album you're producing or whatever goes really well.
Yeah, nice. I want to talk about keynote speeches because I imagine that how a lot of listeners would know you is through your very famous Ted talk, which I think has received something over twenty million views. And I want to know, like, what's your process for translating a book into a speech?
Yeah, another great question. Well, here's the thing. The a book is going to have so much more material in it. Well, I mean a good book. It's just not everybody abised by this, but a book should and ideally have significantly more material than you could even begin to present in say a half an hour talk. And so I think the key is to figure out think about what the audience is and what's the best half hour set of
material for them. And you know, the way you talk about something in front of a group and the way that you actually write it are going to be somewhat different.
And so you know, I generally will talk about it, maybe do like a short talk to a very very very very very small group of people, like literally around the table, and do that a few times and see what to see how people react, and then maybe do some things that are for very small audiences of you know, let's say fifteen people or something like that, just to see how people react, sort of like putting out a
stage production. You go off off Broadway. Then you go off Broadway and you get it right until you go to Broadway.
Yeah, and where do you start? Like when when you're sitting down constructing the first draft of a speech, like are you looking through the book going what are the most impactful points I can make? Or like what's the overall idea? Like where's that starting point?
I actually start with the audience and so and think about try to think about it as much as possible from the audience's perspective. So if you think about, you know, okay, so you know, here these folks and they're going to be sitting there for half an hour, they're imprisoned there
having to listen to me. What is going to be is what is going to be entertaining for them, engaging for them, interesting to them, And what among all of this is going to make them say, you know, because what I want is at the end of that half hour to say, Hey, I'm glad I spent that half hour listening to this guy, rather than checking my email, rather than hanging out with my spouse, rather than taking care of my kids, rather than going to the gym.
That was a good use of a half hour. And so it's going to vary from audience to audience and so I always start.
With the audience and what questions like would you ask yourself when when you're kind of unpacking the audience in preparation for designing a presentation, Uh, you know, one.
Thing would be out of all the material out of all the materials that I have, what are the two or three things that this that this particular audience might might react to saying oh hm, I never knew that. I never thought of it that way. And then what are some takeaways that would be most useful to this
particular audience. So if it's an audience of doctors, it might have it's obviously going to have a different takeaway than if it's an audience of consumer package good marketers or high school principles or you know, military officers.
M Yeah, that makes sense, makes sense. And now, like in the last few minutes that we've got, I want to briefly touch on what are some of the things that you're consuming, because I think it can be so hard for the average person to know, like what should they spend their time listening to, reading and so forth. And I know I listened to the kind of what it was that a secret podcast that you're released to your subscribers actually just Yesterday, which had some great recommendations.
But I'd love to delve into some different things that perhaps you didn't mention. So I'd love to know podcasts. So you were a big podcast consumer, and if so, what are some of the ones that you listen to regularly.
I am actually not a huge podcast consumer. Part of that is that I think one reason for that is that I don't ute in a car, so I think that's where a lot of people listen to their podcasts. And I tend to be interested in episodes rather than in a particular show, so I will rely on recommendation. That's one of where I rely on recommendations from people. There are a few that I there are a few that I do look at, Like there's a here in
the States. There's a national public radio podcast called Hidden Brain that I listened to a lot. There is The New York Times has a podcast called The Daily that I listen to a lot. But I'm really focused on episodes, and you know, people recommending episodes to me rather than religiously listening to a single show.
HM. That's a really interesting way I've approaching it and thinking about twenty nineteen was what was the best book that you read last year?
Huh. I read a lot of good books last year. I mean on the nonfiction side. Two of the best books that I've read. One of them was called The Art of Gathering by Pria Parker, and it's a book about gatherings and how everything from corporate off sites to dinners with friends, to having people over to your house to whatever parties or whatever. And she has this really fascinating way of thinking about how to be much more
intentional about gatherings. What's the purpose of gatherings, Why it's important not to be a chill host at the gatherings, why you should exclude people, And it just made me rethink a like even so, for instance, tonight, my family is having another family over for dinner, and I'm thinking about that book, about Okay, how can we make this
a gathering that is meaningful to everybody. Another book that I loved was called Rulemaker Rule Breakers by Michelle Gelfand, who is a cultural psychologist at the University of Maryland, and it's about really about her whole life's work on what she calls tight cultures and loose cultures. Tight cultures our cultures with lots of rules, pretty black and white. Loose cultures are cultures without so many rules, a little
bit more gray. And it turns out that this deep structure of loose and tight explains many, many, many things, from national differences, to class differences, to different parenting styles, et cetera, et cetera. So those are two. But there's so many good books that come out each year, so many good books that come out each year, that it's hard to keep up out of interest.
How do you decide which books that you will raid and white raid?
Uh? I really don't have a systematic way of doing that. I have these giant piles, and some of it depends on some of it depends on my mood, what I feel like doing at that particular moment. So the last book I finished was a book called I read a fair amount of fiction too. I don't read only nonfiction.
I read a fair amount of fiction. And the last book I literally finished it last night as we're talking here, is called It's a Book Amazingly Enough by James Patterson, who sold fourteen gazillion books, and Bill Clinton, the former US president, called The President is Missing. It's a thriller, and I think I picked that. I picked up that book because I think I was going on like a short vacation and I wanted something that was totally easy
and escapist. But I didn't get to it then, and then I just I think I picked it up one night when I couldn't sleep and wanted something that was an easy read, and so I finally finished it last night. It wasn't very good.
Okay, good noted two quick final questions. So again, going back to the acknowledgment section of the book, you thanked your wife in when for reading your books out loud, and I was so curious, why do you do that? Why do you go through that process?
Well, part of it is that I'm crazy and insane and anal retena, But I find that reading out loud helps me immensely in writing better. So nearly everything I write of significance. So you know, books or articles I will read out loud because to me, it's just a test of does it sound right? You know, are there words in there that are clunkers? Is it as year
and gleaming as it could possibly be? At the same time, though, I like to hear the work read to me, and there's only one person in the world who is willing to sit in a chair and read me my work, and that is my wife. And I learn a lot that way too, so hearing putting my hearing it so so again it's you know, people have different ways of doing things. I just settled on a way that works,
that works for me. But for me reading out loud and hearing the work read out loud it is for better is It is a significant part of my editing process. It's very time consuming, it's very laborious, but that's how I do things awesome.
And finally, Dan, how can people find out more about you and your work?
They can go to my website which is www. Danpink d a n p nk dot com. And I've got an email newsletter, all kinds of groovy stuff in the resource sections, some videos, all kinds of great stuff off at the low low price.
Of free fantastic And I must say I love your newsletter and I will link to all that in the show notes. So, Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show. Has just been an absolute privilege to hear about how you work.
Thanks a lot. It's a pleasure to have you to get your intriguing questions I'm glad I did this at the right time of day.
That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed my chat with Dan, why not share it with someone else who you think could benefit from some of the pearls of wisdom that Dan shared. I just personally love this chat so much. And if you are enjoying how I work, why not hit subscribe wherever you listen to this podcast and that way you will get alerted as to whenever new episodes drop. So that is it for today and I will see you next time.