Hello there, it's Amantha. I'm currently on a Christmas break, so I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite episodes from the last year to share with you. Okay, on with today's best of episode. If someone were to ask you how you define a healthy professional network, the first thing you probably think about is size, like how many people you know and if you were looking for a job or help on a project, how many people do you have?
And your virtual rolodex that you could call. But Marissa King knows that there is a lot more to a healthy network than size. Marissa is a professor of organizational behavior at the Yale School of Management, and she's been studying social networks for the past fifteen years. She's also the author of Social Chemistry, where she explores how anyone can build more meaningful and productive relationships. So how does someone who's studied networking approach meeting new people at a conference?
And how does Marissa go about making new friends? And what does the research say about how we can make ourselves more likable in social situations. I'm doctor Ramantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work a show that helps you do your best work. So, given Marisa has dedicated her professional life to studying networks, I was very keen to understand what kind of a networker she saw herself as being.
I would probably start with thinking, I'm a very reluctant networker. Why is that Like a lot of people, I feel really uncomfortable at least they used to feel really uncomfortable about being intentional about relationship. And that was one of the reasons that I have really delved into this topic. And when I started my career, I had spent you know, the early part of my career purely in research, so in the bottom of the basement with no windows, coding
computers all day, studying networks and how they work. And then when it came time to really get into the professional realm, I kept getting this advice like, you need to network, you need to get out there, you need to meet new people. And that for me was just paralyzing. And the more afraid I got, the harder it was.
So I've changed your approach then to like mazing new people from the research that you've done over the years.
Fundamentally, right, we often teach what we need, And a lot of what I've tried to do is to understand what are some of the basic things that we know from social science and how relationships work, and start to apply those in my own life. So as an example, this idea of you know, like networking, oftentimes people feel
awkward about or it makes us feel dirty. There's great research that was done by Tusiana Kutarot Rutman and Francesco at Geno of Harvard when they actually delved into this and what they found when they asked people to recall different types of interactions. So imagine a spontaneous interaction that's purely social. You bump into someone at a coffee shop and they become a friend, or a certain type of what we often think of is networking, right, a certain
type of social interaction. You're going somewhere with a professional objective in mind. And what they found is that when people think of networking and they were just simply asked to write about it and recall it compared to other types of social interaction, that they were twice as likely to recall cleansing words like wash or wish. So it really taps into this idea like that we many people
have this natural moral aversion. But one of the things that they found that I've really tried to apply and has been extraordinarily helpful in my own approach to relationships is to think about instead of what I could get out of a social interaction. So that's this instrumental calculating part. If I reframe that and think about what can I give instead, that that really has helped me overcome all this reluctance about being really intentional or instrumental about my relationships.
So given that, let's just say you're at a conference, how do you then approach meeting new people?
Well, the first thing is to try to change the orientation of instead of what can I get out of this? Is there some way I can be of service or help other people? But that is just like the tip of the iceberg. So we know that part of the reluctance or resistance people have to networking comes from this feeling of like ickiness or unease. But a second piece of it comes from feeling like you don't know how to do this. So and I fall into this category too.
So not only am I reluctant to do it, I often feel like I don't actually know how to do this. I'm deeply, deeply and I wouldn't say interpreted, but I'm really guarded. And so the idea for me of if I'm at a conference, of walking into a networking event, it pretty much is paralynztic. Like I to a large
extent avoid purposely avoid situations like that. But what I do know, and what I found extraordinarily helpful, is that by having some very very basic tools in my tool kit, I can approach those situations with less fear, which allows me to engage more authentically. So I can give an example of doing this. So now you've, as you mentioned
right that I do going to a conference. It calls to mind like walking into one of these big rooms, but I don't know anybody, and for me that often feels like I'm just walking into a wall or an ocean of people. But what we know from research is that people write don't form walls or oceans, that they
tend to actually clump together in small groups. So if I can see instead of this ocean of people, just wall islands of people, then the question is like, Okay, now they're islands, So this feels a little bit more manageable. What am I going to do next? Well, we know again from research that was done using wearable sensors at these types of events, that, like most people, I would try to find someone I already know, even if my goal is that I'm going to be new people, I
would usually try to stick to someone I know. But I know that that's not a good strategy. So setting that aside, what we know is that people almost always interact in groups of two or diets. It's really the most fundamental unit of human interaction. We have two eyes, and we have two ears, and our hearing does something that's known as the cocktail party effect. It really hones in on a single voice. So that means that if you can find an island with an odd number of people,
whether that's three, five, seven, it doesn't really matter. If there's an odd number of people there, there's someone who really isn't a part of the conversation that is likely looking for a conversational partner. And so that very basic strategy for me has become critical to starting to navigate a lot of the social anxiety I feel in these types of situations, because it gives me direction. So that's one of the things that's helped me out with conferences
and other professional events. So, particularly when I feel like I don't really know what to do here, having a feeling like I have some little playbook helps.
I love that look for odd numbers. It's so practical and simple. What are some other tools that you're using at these kinds of events?
For me, one of the pieces that I try to keep in mindor what are some of the things that just lead to natural social chemistry. There's great research that has shown that one of the best things that you can do in a conversation is actually ask follow up questions. So asking questions in general makes people more likable, but we know that the follow up question actually has particular power, and in part that because it shows that you're really listening to the other person and so once so now
you're your odd numbered island. You found someone to talk to, and really just listening to them and engaging with them and continuing to ask all up questions really not only increases the sense of liking, but it deepens the conversation, and the more depth that there has to conversation, the easier it is to truly connect.
That's really interesting. I was intrigued when I was reading your book Social Chemistry. You actually talk about there are six types of questions that we can ask, follow up questions being the most powerful. Are there any other kinds of questions that can help us get into an interesting territory that will lead to those follow up questions?
I think one of the things that we also know about just how conversations normally unfold is there's a secret ingredients is also what I think of as mutual reciprocal self disclosure. And so there's a great study that was done by Arthur Aeron's which and it famously became like the thirty six Questions to fall in Love. But what's key about the way that those questions unfold is that they get with increasing depth. But what I've found also is true is that people will often try to meet
you where you are. So, for instance, in a conversation, if I'm honest and open, that encourages the other person to be honest and open to So an example of this is a common opening question is like how are you doing today? And lots of people right just use that it's a throwaway like oh I'm good, how are you?
Or talk about the weather, But to really build a relationship, and particularly to accelerate the building the relationship process, you need to go far beyond that, right, and you also need to go beyond what I could learn by googling
you or seeing on your CV and so oftens. When people ask me that I tell them truly how I'm doing today, and that honesty is usually met with equal honesty and openness, not all the time, but when it is, it really just changes the tenor of the conversation and makes connecting far easier.
So how much would you typically share? Because you also talk about, you know, research into oversharing and that can that can have, you know, not great consequences. So how do you sort of gauge how much to share, how vulnerable to make yourself when you are first connecting with someone.
It's such a good question, and I think that this is particularly if you're trying to do this so at work or certain situations, understanding what are they can straints and particularly like imagining the other person, because for this to be comfortable for everybody, I often say, like, you need two things. It's a part of the essential elements for these types of conversations, which are safety in structure, right, So the structured interaction part is that we're talking about
something rather than just open conversation. So this is why in general, just having a cocktail party or a work event with no purpose it's really really difficult. Instead, if you're ideally, if we go back to that previous scenario and we imagine that we're setting the stage or designing this interaction, ideally that there's going to be something to talk about, the mutual safe ground. So if that's true,
it makes it a lot easier. When that's not true, what you're looking for is that you want to engage in conversation that's aimed at mutual discovery, but in a place that right like, I'm not going to tell you about I mean I personally, For instance, I don't really talk about my family life. I don't talk about there's lots of a lot of people do, but I'm really private,
as I mentioned. So the idea is I let you know things about myself, maybe where I grew up or a really transformative experience I had a great question to ask people, or what are you really excited about right now? Because it allows you to tap into passion, it allows you to tap into identity, but it's giving the person a lot of control over what the boundaries of discussion are, which creates the safety that's so essential.
Now in your book, you write about Jane Dutton's work into high quality connections, and I was curious as to, well, firstly, if you could define what a high quality connection is, but then how do you think about using that research in creating those high quality connections when you are meeting new people.
A high quality connection is a connection that's really positively energizing in the moment, that has a lot of resilience. So it's not when I say it's positively energizing, it's not just like that makes you feel happy, but that it strikes an emotional core in a way that is energizing but also has the ability to hold a lot of emotion. And that can be it's difficult to articulate, but you know when you're in them. And that's one of the really powerful pieces of a high quality connection
is it has true physiological effects. So when you're in a high quality connection, for instance, your cortisol levels, which are a biomarker of stress, lower, your heart rate slows down, your breathing slows down. So we're really wired physically to be in these types of connections and they can happen. Which is so powerful is they can happen in a moment, So we can get that kind of energizing connection even with a stranger that we are just meeting for the first time.
And so how do you then apply that research when you're at a conference or at the dinner of hatty and you're encountering people that you don't know.
The heart of a high quality connection is really being as present as you can in the moment. If we think about where high quality connections come from, right, we've talked about these physiological effects, but they're really felt through our senses. So whether that's through eyesight, touch is extraordinarily powerful, or listening is another example of the ways in which
high quality connections are really created. And to move in this direction, the first and biggest piece, which I feel like is the biggest very of the most people, including me, based on a day to day basis, is just simply distraction, and that, in many ways is what can derail these the most. So there's great research doing that. In a conversation, just even simply having a phone on a table makes
that conversation less enjoyable. It makes people feel that they're trusting their conversational partner less just simply the presence of a phone. There's another great example of this. There was a study that was done to try to understand how just how distracted can technology and phones in particular make us. And to figure this out, the researchers ask people just to be walking down the street, either without a phone in hand or not. And what they found is that
and then they sent this is the punchline. Then they sent someone addressed as a clown unicycling by, and they found that two thirds of people who are on their phone did not even notice the person unicycling by. So this gives you a sense of just how much we can miss. And so it sounds like a very very simple place to start, But the truth is that most of us are distracted most of the time, often by technology.
So the first piece is actually to just simply put away your phone and try to be fully present with the person that you're connecting with.
Now, you mentioned listening, and you write a lot about listening, and I one of the statistics in your book stuck with me that ninety six percent of people think they are a good listener, which is probably quite untrue, So how can we listen better?
Listening is one of these superpowers. I always say, if I could give a superpower to someone for human connection, it's listening, because it's so rare to truly be listened to. If you think about what often happens in conversation, people will derail a conversation. They're trying to be good listeners, but they'll derail a conversation by, for instance, jumping in with a oh, yeah, that happened to me, or oh listen, want something you know, a me too type of story,
but that can often derail the conversation. Or they will try to offer advice, which is not necessarily what you're looking for. So one of the best ways that I found to just try to figure out like what's going on with me, like how well am I listening in a given moment, is to just simply, for instance, ask someone how like how are you doing today? Or ask a question and see how when I'm listening to them,
to see what my tendencies are. Do I have these tendencies to want to jump in and fix their problem or and try to understand what am I doing and how quickly do I want to interrupt. There's great research that has looked at actually physicians in patient assessment, because in that research, listening is extraordinarily powerful, both in terms of reducing pain and healing, but also for how effective
physicians are. And that research has found that after a physician ask a patient you know, why are you here, for instance, that they don't even when they know better that they'll only go seven teen seconds before they interrupt the patient. And if they just let them finish, which they oftentimes people say, well, won't they go on forever? And the case is that they usually don't go on beyond thirty seconds, but if they just give them the full span, the entire visit is much more effective and
wraps up faster. And so for me, at the very beginning, I just had to actually practice sitting on my hands and keeping my mouth shut, which sounds like a ridiculous thing to say, but what I found is actually one of the best things that you can do in interaction is simply to do nothing. And doing this exercise time and time again, I've seen people literally brought to tears just by having the opportunity to truly be heard.
Hello, there. It is nearly time for a little ad break. But before we do that, I never talk about my own social networks. But if you're on social media, and let's face who isn't, feel free to reach out and follow me. I'm on LinkedIn just search for Amantha Imba.
I'm on Twitter at amantha super simple, and I'm now getting a little bit more active on Instagram where you can find me at at amantha I. So we will be back after this break where Marissa will be talking about how do you sever tize with friends or people in your networks and on the flip side, how Marissa
approaches making new friends. I want to talk about network churn or network turnover, and I was really intrigued how you write about that our networks start to reduce in size from gosh, like I think it was our mid twenties, like quite young. And I was also in the same context just thinking about, well, how do you know when it's time to say goodbye to someone in your network, like maybe like a close friend or someone that you've known really well at work and perhaps you're realizing that
that relationship is no longer serving you. And you talk about how breakups are rare, So what do you do when you recognize that a connection that you have is no longer serving you.
Oh there's anything. There are two huge pieces of this. So the first piece is really just what's happening to how much our networks change over time. And as you mentioned, our networks are largest when we're twenty five, and then they tend to get just smaller and smaller over time. And one of the most striking things that you think has happened during the pandemic is actually just that reduction
and the size of our network. So in my own research, I found that our networks overall, people's networks have shrunk by close to sixteen percent, but that's almost entirely due to reduction in the size of men's networks. So men's networks have shrunk by more than thirty five percent, which translates into roughly four hundred people. But women's networks have
not shrunk at all. And what I think is really instructive about this reduction and network size in the and particularly with thinking about it in parallel to what happens over our life course, is this reduction in the size of our network it's really first off, unconscious, and the second pieces it's likely enduring. So what we know is that this reduction networks don't just naturally recover on their own, that you have to really reinvest in reinvigorating those relationships.
But as you mentioned, right, most of us aren't thinking like this, right, Like we're not thinking about how to reinvigorate our networks, and we're also not thinking about when it's time to let go. So we're really just kind of driven by inertia and what's around us. Most people's networks that are really just accidents. It's just kind of
like what's happening. But if we can start to be more intentional, whether that's more intentional with the respect to reaching out and reconnecting with people, or more intense about letting people go, because we all, no matter who you are, right, we all have a fixed amount of time in the day.
And so it's are you going to invest in relationships that are positive, that bring you joy or maybe you know you may be helpful, or are you going to invest in worrying about you know, you're grumpy co worker or your aunt or your neighbor who's just constantly a nuisance.
So what have you done in your own life? Like when you feel like okay, it's it's time to time to kind of sever this tie, particularly with someone that's a strong tie.
Like, I think it's like just a conversation based around the idea that this isn't good for either of us, and a lot of times there's also an opportunity to just change the where you're investing your energy the time the time that it's refocusing on just allocation of time. But I think it's simply like a conversation about like, you know, there's a lot of I appreciated about this, but it's I don't think it's in either of our best interests time just to move and grow.
Now on the flip side, in terms of growing our network or regrowing our network thanks to COVID, Like, I think a lot about you know, Like I'm a forty three year old female and I think about the process of making new friends because earlier in life, you know, there's all these opportunities to make new friends, like at school and university or college and so forth. But like I always wonder, like, you know, at my age, how
does one go about making new friends? And I want to know for you, like, what's your process for making a new friend?
Why it's so easy as you mentioned like why it's so easy to make friends in college in particular, Right, I always find it interesting to ask people to, you know, write down the five people non family members that you're closest to, and then the next column like write down or think about where you met them. And it's almost always in organizations or institutions, and particularly if you think about college or school, they have all the magic ingredients
for already made relationship. Right, There's a common shared identity, there's coordinated social activities, and you have a lot of
free time. And so when I think about how if I need to build or want to build new relationships, the idea is to try to think about, Okay, how can I find those common ingredients, And almost always it's by joining being a joiner, so trying to figure out a new area or a new interest or a new passion and then joining a group of other people who are interested, and that common identity and shared interest really helps relationships accelerate.
In form that's interesting, like something I've found why my daughter is in year two at school, and I felt like the school moms would be this new social network for me and it just hasn't found out like that, Like Granted, I work full time and I'm not at every pickup and drop off. I'm at, you know, maybe about half or so every week, and I just haven't found that kind of social click. But I'm determined to like break through. What advice would you give me to help do that?
Oh, I don't have any answers to that. I have the same issue myself. I mean, it's that piece the school parent friends is really difficult because those are your kids' friends. They're not your friends, and so this notion of finding a common interest or a shareground, it's really hard to move beyond the kids. And so I think that understanding that for me, that's the purpose of those relationships is like, they're really my kids friends. I just need to be
nice enough that my kid has play dates. But for me to find in any relationship, right if it's that one or at work, I always try to remind myself, like, the goal isn't like that I need to like everyone or everyone likes needs to like me, but there just needs to be mutual respect. So that's how I focus on that. That's my approach to those types of relationships. And then I'm like, oh, I'll find my friends with their weird sense of humor, right like quirky things like outside my kid's school.
That makes me feel so much better about like feeling like a bit of a failure with you know, forming really really good connections with the school moms. It's interesting.
I formed, you know, a few new close friendships in my adult life, and I formed one recently in the last six months with this wonderful woman called me and we've got quite a lot in common, and I sort of I've been trying to unpack what has actually turned someone that I didn't know like six months ago into some one that feels like a really good friend now. And I feel like the frequency of our catch ups
has certainly helped. But I guess, like, what what are the things Once you've joined something, you found someone with common interest, how do you actually then go about turning someone that you feel like you're clicking with into an actual friendship. What's been your process that you've gone through in your own life.
I think defining demarcation and relationship is when you become willing to ask for help from someone. And because it's the herd see one of the defining differences between a casual acquaintance and a real friend is it would you turn to them at a time of need. And why that's important is when it shows vulnerability, but it also shows trust to the other person. And even today, for instance, our car broke down and like, I had a neighbor who's like, are they a neighbor? Are they a friend?
And we had to call them for help, And that I think is actually a turning point at least in that's a turning point in the relationship. And a lot of people I think are really reluctant to ask for help in general. And one of the things that I find helpful in this regard is to realize that actually asking someone from help for help is really a gift because it allows them to have a sense of purpose, it allows them to feel a sense of mastery, and
it also allows them to get outside of themselves. And I think it's the heart of human connection is really the mutual the ability to help one another and mutual help. And so that for me is one of the key ways of knowing, right if I'm really friends with someone or am I just a casual acquaintance.
Is that like potentially a way to fast track a friendship by almost asking for help when you feel a little bit uncomfortable asking for help.
Yes, it also is showing parts of yourself that you would necessarily want, right like if people to see. So it's at the heart rate of trust is also vulnerability. And so there's a question, right of does trust come first or does vulnerability come first? And I think it's
it's kind of both. It's a mutually reinforcing process. But you can really fast track a relationship by being willing to either ask primarily by being willing to ask for help, but also you necessarily need to be willing to give it.
There are they other tricks that you use for fast tracking, you know, like relationships or intimacy. In that regard, The.
Other piece is related to this, which is just allowing people to see aspects of yourself, particularly the less perfect aspects. So I feel like so much of what happens on social media in the external world is trying to present this perfect image of our self, but no one really looks or lives like that. And by allowing people to see like, oh, this is how it really is, that that is a way of fostering authentic connection.
I feel like like we can't have a conversation about networks without talking about social media, And I'd love to know what's your approach to using social media to build or foster or nurture your own networks.
I try to avoid it as much as possible. It gets back to this question. It's often a substitute for really connecting with people, and social media is actually helpful for reinforcing existing sets of relationships. It's also helpful for building familiarity. We know that there's something called the mirror exposure effects. So the more you see something, whether that's a face or a symbol or a product, the more
you like it. And so another thing that social media is good for is simply people will start to think they like you if they see you more. So that can also be an out of benefit of social media. But the truth is we all because of this limited amount of time, we have, have to choose where we're going to invest it. And for me, the investment always pays off when I'm actually being more present with the people that are physically around me than it is when I'm online.
So that's really interesting. Like one thing I wonder about LinkedIn, which is probably the social network that I would invest most time and energy into, should I be accepting connections from people that I don't know.
On LinkedIn, my answer is yes, I actually, of all the platforms, I think that there's a lot to be said for LinkedIn because there's a can you know what you're there for? Right? Like you're there to present a like a polished, a professional version of yourself, and it's pretty clear what it's for. So there's not this confusion that often happens in other sites around right like what am I projecting versus who I really am? Or what a message am I trying to send? Like, it's very
clear what's happening there and I don't in there. I think there's no real drawback to expanding your community and having the opportunity to reach new ideas, And that's also one of the things that's been really powerful about There is a I would say a powerful positive of social media is that we actually tend to interact with people who are far more diverse on platforms. So research on LinkedIn has shown that this is true. So you can have connections that are far more diverse in online than
you necessarily would in real life. So I would say go for it, right, you never know who you're going to bump into or what new ideas they may have.
Now, I've heard that you have a weakely networking ritual. Can you tell me about that?
So we know that there's extraordinary power in our existing networks, and arguably the thing that you can do to benefit your network the most is to reinvigorate connections. And based on work that was done on something called dormant ties, so people that you have not seen in two or three years. Research that was done by Dan Levin, who's
a professor at Rutgers and his colleagues. They were curious about what are the benefits of these types of connections, and so they ask people to make a list of ten current connections and ten people that they haven't reached out to in two or three years, and then ask people to reach out to them for advice about a
current project. And what they found is these ties, dormant ties, were extraordinarily powerful and both they provide new, more creative ideas in existing contexts, but also the trust endured within those relationships, so they were really enjoyable. So I have taken this and turned it into a practice where I write down two or three people and on Fridays I reach out to them just to say, hey, I'm thinking
about you. There's often sometimes I will have and ask or something I'm hoping to get out of it, like I be back, or just I may have a question. But most of the time it's just hey, I'm thinking about you, and that for me has been both a source of great joy, but it's also been extraordinarily helpful.
So in terms of what you say, like it might just be general I'm thinking about you, what some what are some other examples of I guess things that you've like reasons to reach out to someone that you've used.
Yeah, for me, I like to think of this like there are three different ways of approaching this, and oftimes there are people are like, oh my god, isn't this going to be awkward? First, so just to say, I promise it's not. And the more you do it, the more you realize, like, oh, this is actually great. It's also helpful for me to imagine myself being in the other person's shoes. So if I imagine, like, oh, if I received this email, wouldn't I be happy to get it?
And the answer is almost always yes. So I find that piece first helpful. So imagine now that you've gotten over the awkwardness. I always find it helpful that they right. Are there three different ways that I can do this that I know will help increase social connection and also just make for a positive interaction. The first is simply to thank someone. We know that gratitude is extremely powerful as a source of connection. So I may think of is there someone who was a mentor like this is
who comes to mind right now? Is there a mentor or someone who gave me a piece of advice a couple of years ago, or someone when I was little, right they served as a role model, and just simply to reach out to them and thank them for what they've done. So that's one easy way that's always always positive. I mean, these are all always positive, but it's just so nice. The second is to think about what I can give. It can be as simple as hey, I saw this article or I was listening to this podcast,
I thought you might like it. There are lots of things that we all have to give, particularly in this moment when people are so starved for social connection. Just saying like I'm thinking of you is in many ways a gift. But there are lots and lots of things that we have to give if we just start to think a little bit broader. And then the final is we were discussing previously is just simply to ask for help, which in many ways can be a gift of itself.
So do you find that most people are writing back to you when you reach out in that way?
Almost always? I can't even think of a time when they have it.
Wow? And so you're doing this every week, Like, if you look back over the last year, what would you say the impact has been for you of really sticking to this weekly ritual.
So, I mean, particularly during the past year, it's been a lifesaver in the sense that it has allowed me to feel connected during moments when I don't feel is connected as I possibly could be. My husband also does this, and it's really a nudge about doing it, and he found he wasn't looking for a job, but he ended up getting the job he had always wanted, working exactly with the people he wanted to work with, which was
a game changer for our family. And I mean, it's just it makes me feel like a deeper sense of connection to my community. And I think there's no greater gift than that.
I love it. Are there any other habits or rituals that you've tried to help maintain a healthy network.
The biggest thing for me is also just realizing in any given moment, so I tend towards I tend towards being thinking, I'm really socially awkward, which makes me not want to engage with other people. And we know that this is common, right, So most people think that they're better than average at most things, So they think they're smarter than average, or they are better drive an average, But when it comes to social interaction, we know that
we consistently underestimate how much people like us. So there's great research by Erica boothby showing this, and for me, one of the things that a practice't I wouldn't callut a ritual, but a practice that I try to keep in mind is that I'm far underestimating how much the
other person truly wants to connect. And by reframing that and focusing on like, we as humans all really deeply want to connect and we all really want social interaction to go smoothly, And by reframing that, it's made it far more easier to navigate the everyday social interactions than it was before.
Now Marissa. My final question for you, For people that want to connect with you in some way and get the hands on social chemistry, what is the best way for people to do that.
You can learn more about me and my work at Marissa King dot com and I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn.
Of course, whether you know them or not exactly. Oh, thank you so much for your time, Marissa. It has been absolutely fascinating.
It was a pleasure. Thanks for talking with me.
Hello there, That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed today's episode, why not share it with someone else that you think would benefit and maybe get some useful tips to improve the way that they work. How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support from dead Set Studios. And thank you to Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for every show and makes everything sound so much better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.