12. Chit-Chat: Balancing Mental Load in Relationships: Why It’s a Struggle & How to Fix It

Honey, we need to chat. Hello and welcome back to Honey, we need to chat. My name is Amy and this is my husband, Blair. I am. Yep, we are all about communication at this podcast. This is something we're extremely passionate about. We've said it before, and I'll say it again, that when communication dies, bad things happen.

And so the heart behind Honey we need to Chat is to be workshopping areas where couples might get a bit stuck in their communication, in their relationship where we get stuck. Yeah, we have been stuck in where we may get stuck and just kind of workshop it together as a couple and then also with you guys. So that's what we are about. Welcome to our Chitchat episode. How you going today, babe? Good babes. Yeah, I am. If we're gonna do how we are at 10, I am a 9.5. Wow. I'm good.

I'm feeling really good again. A lot of my, and this has can be real negative and it's not for today's episode but I find a lot of value and self worth out of productivity. Yes. And so I last episode, I believe it was last episode or one one recently anyway. I spoke about how I had a really low mental health day or couple of days and it was because I did not feel confident in the work that I was doing which made me feel unproductive which made me

feel very low. I've had a really great week. Productive and productive. Kicking some butt. Yeah. Ticking the boxes and I feel really, really good. Yeah. So nine point you. Yeah, I'd say probably maybe an 8.5 as a bit tired today. Yeah, she got a nap. I did nice, so that's where I'm at. But yeah, pretty good. Should have had. Another nap. But before we get into the topic today I really I again, I sometimes I'm in my head a little bit about how much we repeat ourselves.

But I'm gonna do it anyway cause I don't care. Yeah, but I I seriously, a part of my 9.5 is I'm still in a bit of a high from the engagement we've been getting from our listeners. Absolutely no. Oh man, I I think. And how long have we been out for? Literally almost exactly a month. So I'm gonna put a post up, but

not even a month yet. It's crazy and and you know what we hoped for was that I'm, you know, I would have conversations these conversations were already having cause we're intentional about us growing in communication because we see it as such a core foundation and a relationship and to like cool, hopefully, you know if we help people that's going to be fantastic. But the feedback is not me, just feedback. It's engagement.

You know, just the conversations we're having with people, they're sending you messages and saying, oh, look, this really spoke to me. This is my situation, This is my story. And then also, you know, can you talk about this? And then, yeah, you know, we've had a couple of those now and we're like, oh, cool, how do we give this justice? Like, how do we do well in this space? So anyway, we're looking at some guest speakers and stuff coming up in the future.

I have no idea when, but to really just help bring a little bit more umph into those topics that we're getting that are have been written in. But anyway, I've just been on a high about that. I've just absolutely loved it. And even just before sitting down for tonight, I'm having a conversation with a bunch of guys about tonight's topic even. Yeah. And it just, I just love it. And you have so pumped up. Yeah, it's just conversations.

It's just communication. But the impact that it has on us individually and then just other people around us is really powerful. And so I'm just on a high. I think I'm just really pumped up. Yeah. It's really encouraging. And I think for me, it's just been very affirming or reaffirming, I guess, of the need of communication and that that's just so universal because what we say and how we navigate communication is just not how everyone's going to do that.

And that's totally fine. But the fact that so many people are engaged in it so far already is not because we're amazing communicators, is because everyone listening, almost everyone listening to almost every topic has some kind of perspective on it or has navigated it in some way in their own relationship. And so it's immediately applicable. And whether they agree with what we say or not, like they're like, yeah, we've got and we've had people disagree and that's awesome.

Well, it's gonna say is like one of the conversations I was having tonight with someone disagreeing with a view that we had. Yeah. And but it's what's what's awesome though is he still having the conversation with his partner. I was like, I gotcha. This is like it's again you. Not everyone's agree with our point of view and I'm completely fine with that. That's not the point Al. Opinions and our views are not the point.

Yeah it's having the conversation and encouraging you guys to have the conversations and to see the power of that. So yeah I'm, I'm just blown away and we want to keep on encouraging you guys right in. We'll get you know because again we are getting a few now which was we just weren't prepared for. So please, if we do have a little the delay or if we haven't answered it on a podcast like answered your questions or your inquiry, well, not inquiries. If.

We haven't, yeah. If we haven't responded to whatever you've written in, yeah. On on the episode just give us time you know a game we we were not prepared for this amount of input and so we're in a bit of catch up but I'm I'm so thankful for you guys and just being a part of this with us. It's just it's just reconfirms what what our theory our thoughts.

Were thank you. And I'm going to say before we dive into this chat as well, the interesting thing we've discovered is that well it's not interesting. This is totally predictable that most of our listeners are female, which is very normal for any kind of online content, most especially relationship related. Most will be female. But the most feedback we've been getting genuinely is from men.

And it's really interesting. A few people being like, I was, I saw this stuff and I was like, that's not going to be my thing. And then then I was like, oh, whatever, I'll just try it. And and then they've gotten really into and listen to every

episode we have. And then they've. Written and they've written, yeah, we've had multiple men that have that are up to date on every episode and commenting on it and it's just, it's awesome. So what I want to say specifically for this episode, but also in general, like, I just challenge you in this literal moment right now that you're listening to just think, who are three people that I could suggest this podcast to, but specifically this episode as well? Who are some men in my life that

I could suggest this podcast to? Because what we're about to chat about is something that is really universal. Again, maybe not the way we navigate it, but as universal to most couples and is hopefully going to be something that's a really good conversation starter and a tool and resource for even just starting that exploration in your relationship that sometimes guys maybe aren't aware of.

So this episode in particular, I'd love to challenge you to just think who are people I could share this with? And also specifically, who are some men in my life that might benefit from this too? Even though I wouldn't necessarily first think men in this podcast, but it seems to be being a blessing to them. So absolutely that's our spiel.

What is the topic? Yeah. Well, on that, on that note, the topic of this episode, this chit chat, is mental load, which is a phrase that we discovered I think was like last year or the year before. Sometime. Recently, however, it is a concept that has been in our relationship since the beginning. It's just something that I

didn't have the words for. The words for it a structure around it until whenever I discovered it in the last couple of years and then I was able to, I was like, oh, I saw this real that was really intriguing and it was a man that was talking about in his relationship. Psychologist for something, I think. Maybe, yeah. I can't even remember who it was.

I just remember seeing the real and he was talking about the mental load within a relationship and the imbalance there and specifically about grocery shopping, which we'll talk about as we go into the chat. And so I showed Blair this real because he worked with dads and also just for our relationship as well.

And then it was like a concept that was introduced to him and it was just, it was really fascinating to kind of realise how much blind spot there is on both sides to this concept, but how prevalent it is in relationships. So we thought, and we've mentioned it on the podcast or in passing, but we thought it definitely deserved a sort of chit chat. Yeah, so that is why we are here. Tonight, and I wanna say as well, a lot of the things that we're talking about in this

episode I struggle with. So it's it's important for me to say that because again, I don't want to be coming across of like, alright guys, you need to be doing this, doing be doing that, whatever else. I actually really struggle with this and when Amy showed this to me, it was like a light bulb went off in my head. I'm like, I do that. I hadn't, I I hadn't even thought of this before you brought it to my attention and I've shared it to many guys

since then. Yeah, we've already we've ever made a a webinar about this for my work and it's like it's so much. And again, the impact has been huge. Again, not everyone is going to agree. That's completely fine. A lot of guys just might not see it. That's completely fine. What we're trying to do in this

is encourage the conversation. So women, if you're hearing this episode, we want to encourage you to have this conversation with your partner and we want to talk about ways in which we can do that, how you start the conversation and so forth and how we did that because that's a sensitive thing.

And also guys be receptive, like try and let your barriers down, let your walls down, just just listen and see and just just reflects your your your way of interacting, your way of communicating, the way that you're trying to show love. Because again, we're going to dive into this soon and just just here. It's just we really want to encourage you to listen and reflect and talk lost. That's something that I really have been wrestling with and

trying to grow in is talk last. I'm a verbal processor, so that's really hard to do, but it actually helps my verbal processing if I listen first, reflect, then talk and process. So just want to encourage that if that's gonna help you guys. And just one last little disclaimer before we dive in. Obviously this is generalising, so it's not always men and women that will fall into these categories in this way that we're going to talk about generally.

This is how it plays out, may not be the case for your situation. So just disclaimer generalising a little bit and just so we don't have to say the whole way through, that's, that's what we're starting with. Cool. Let's dive in guys. We have an exciting update. What's our exciting? Update Patreon. And Spotify subscription. Spotify Some. We have some really great quality raw extra content that we are going to be posting on our Patreon and our Spotify subscription.

So if you are interested in a little bit more from our episodes, if you get to the end and you're like, I want one more story, now you. Know. It's also going to be a place where we will be updating, sending resources and just keeping our little community growing and extending there. So if you're interested at all, please check it out. We will post about how to sign up. If you have any questions, let us know. Get on to the Patreon. Get on to the Spotify subscription. Yeah. Thank you.

So to start, I thought it would be great to just kind of even just give a definition of what mental load is. So mental load I was, I was doing a quick Google, I found it really well worded on a blog. So I've just literally taken a word for word and I'm going to tell you what the blog was is written by Randy Donahue in my home. Yep. The definition that she wrote out was mental load is the cognitive and emotional effort used to manage your life and in many cases the lives of others.

And everything that I can see about it is it's basically the invisible tasks. So we all know workload, right? We've heard workload as we've grown up and gone into the workforce and that kind of thing. I think even in your family, in your household is fairly easy to see the the physical visible tasks in terms of workload, you might have that kind of worked out how that lies with each partner, but there's a visible task.

The mental load is the invisible tasks that sit on the mind and they tick away and they take a great deal of effort and they actually impact a lot of all the other aspects of your life.

But they're really, they're hard to kind of express that you can't see them. And so it's like it's real easy for a partner to not be aware of them happening. It's even easy for the person who's got the mental load going on should not really be aware of what's going on because all they know is they're stressed. They wouldn't necessarily have words around it. Mental note is the cognitive and emotional effort used to manage your life, and in many cases,

the lives of others. So mental load could look different for each couple and probably will. But I found a list at healthline.com that was really helpful with just some general ones that might be common. And the first thing that they start with is, does the refrain of just tell me if you need me or let me know if I can help sound familiar? And I thought, yes, those are great like that. Those two things on their own is a really good way of kind of defining what mental load is.

So here are some things that might be causing mental load. Having to remind people to pay bills or handle other essential tasks. Needing to offer praise or pass on the back for handling necessary chores around the house like the dishes or things that are just you need to do them. Keeping track of parenting related daily details like school plans after school plans, permission slips, library books, due dates, doctor's appointments. Checking in on the kids,

physical and emotional needs. Making to do lists, grocery lists or chore chore charts. Purchasing and wrapping gifts for friends and loved ones, birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, etcetera. Scheduling date nights, vacations and visits to family or friends. Lacking the time to pursue leisure activities when your partner does have time to pursue leisure.

Leisure activities, childcare. The presumption that you have the kids when your partner is going to do something, but you having to arrange for your partner to have the kids when you go to do something. Finishing off tasks. So the partner might do most of the tasks, but then there's a little bit that you have to finish up for them because they haven't completed the task. Using the last of something.

So leaving one egg in the egg carton, or leaving like a tablespoon of milk in the milk carton and not replacing it, or not letting you know that it's almost empty so you'd have to discover on your own. Another example is leaving only like a few sheets, little squares of toilet paper on the toilet roll I'm not looking at. You you did you.

I also do it sometimes. Sometimes and getting the house and the family ready for tasks or the night or when you leave on holidays, those kinds of things. So this is a list of just obviously big bunch of random things. I thought I might dive into a few of these because a few of these already are applicable to us. But the first one I thought maybe is a good one to chat through that we first talked about, which was grocery shopping. That was the first. Kind of like light bulb.

Do you wanna explain? Yeah, because that was, that was, well, back in the day, the conversation you brought up, and that was your example and now for me was like, oh man, that's so true. So yeah, grocery shopping. So for example, you know, you, you will go back in the day, you would go grocery shopping and you've gone through the pantry, you've gone through the fridge, you've looked at what we need, you know, do we need dishwashing tablets? Do we need whatever else? Right.

You've done all that. Then you go with your list to the shops. And for me, what I was doing was like, alright, I'm going to do this. I want to step up. I'm gonna do the groceries because it needs to be done. I wanna step up and and and I want to rely on you for everything. So what I would do is say Amy, what do we need? The shops. I'm gonna go shopping. And that right there was the mental load. I was still relying on Amy to put the list together for me so

I can go do the thing. And for me, I'm like, I'm doing a great thing here. I am, you know? Well, not it's, it's going grocery shopping. I'm good thing. I'm doing good thing. Like I'm doing a responsible thing, you know, stepping up to the plate. I'm, you know, providing for my family. I'm not relying on Amy, but I was relying on Amy's, which is the mental load. There were times just this is not a big issue, the grocery

shopping thing. But I do remember times where you would go grocery shopping and in my head I'm like I should be grateful he's grocery shopping. But it still felt like a lot of work and I I never had words to put to it. Yeah I never was like it feels like it's a lot of work because I am still having to fill out the list when blah blah. Like I just didn't have it clear

in my head. But just like I would feel like a like frustration or a burden or like an ark with it even though something that you're doing nice and so it would be very easy. And I think this is what the trap is for couples in general with this to be like. But he is doing something, but he's doing something good. I shouldn't like Nah, he's doing something good. Or to even be like, I'm really annoyed and I'm just gonna be

annoyed. Like you could either go either way, like dismissing them being like negative critical or you could go dismissing yourself and your frustrations because like, oh, but they are doing something good. Or he did, he did take the bins out three days ago. So I shouldn't have that kind of thing. Like it's a real unless you have a clarity around it. It's easy to to kind of get lost in this big mess of confusion of

mental load. So when I give an example of what we came up with after that, So what could it look like? Right. So I have a look and I'll see what things we need. So I do that myself and don't rely on any. But it's OK for me to come to Amy and say I'm going down the shop, so I'm gonna get XYZ. What else do we need? So even though I'm still including Amy in the conversation, it's not putting it all on her. It's like, no, I'm doing all this. Just wanna check in.

Is there anything else? So that's not a cop out? And we have to be very careful with that. I'm not just like finding that we need eggs, but not putting anything else on the list and then relying on Amy's. Like, no, no, I'm doing my part. I've done my look, I've, I've done that. But is there anything else that you spotted? And this is really important too. Like what you said is you didn't just bring this up and be like Blair. You are putting so much on me on my mental load.

Like I I, you know, I feel like I'm taking on your stuff too. It was none of that. It was, hey, this is an interesting thing. What's a way that we can help you with that? And it feels weird cause I feel like a baby saying this like I really do. I feel like kind of your mothering me a little bit in this space and it's really annoying and I wish it was different. Reality is it's not.

And and this is a big part of the journey for a lot of guys and I don't understand why I completely and we've got some ideas but for for some reason a lot of guys need that help to think at this level for some reason and I was one of them.

So yeah, that has been a big part of this discovery. It's not only just discovering what it is, but how do I grow in that? Yeah. And I think the really big thing is there are a tonne of cultural things around this. So when you become a mum, specifically, you enter into this realm of motherhood and there are lots of opportunities to get frustrated at your partner. A lot of the time it was

legitimate frustrations. And I feel like we've said this in so many episodes, like legitimate frustrations where the husband or the partner just cannot step up. And it just when you hear the story, which makes sense, how it becomes this culture, you hear this story and you're like. What is that guy's deal? Yeah, why can he not step up?

It's so ridiculous that such a tiny thing, why does she have to be his mother, blah blah blah and you just It just is a self fulfilling prophecy because once that culture starts then it's like a big really difficult machine to stop because it is continuing to reinforce itself. What I've realised almost none of those guys I believe would want to be that way.

Almost none of those guys, if they heard the hurt that they were causing their partner, almost none of them would just be satisfied to be like, Oh yeah, that's what I do like, genuinely inside they might have that front.

I don't know. I think for so many reasons, they are unaware, not equipped, too scared, insecure, whatever it might be. There's like a bazillion reasons that might be thrown at them and and once you kind of ingrain yourselves in your in the roles of your family, it can be really hard to change that, especially as you have kids and you really like your roles just kind of get more and more and more and more

reinforced. And so one huge heart that I have behind this conversation is it's not about like this is what guys are missing. This is kind of what you've just said. It's not what you're missing. It's sad that you miss it. It's sad that something's happened. And there's a few things like you said that that I think we've looked into why it might pan out the way it does. It's sad that it's missing. It's sad that it's a fact, but it is a fact.

And so you kind of have to be like, what is the goal that I have for the relationship? What do I want it to be like? As as the person that struggles more with the mental load, I could be bitter and frustrated that Blair doesn't pick up on some of those things, and I could just sit in my head and Stonewall like we talked about in the Four Horsemen episode. Stonewall. Like get internal with it, get bitter about it, get critical about it.

For good reason, because I'm doing a lot of work, but for unproductive and not constructive reasons. Or I could be like this is how it is, we need to communicate through it. This is not what I want our relationship to be like in five years time. What I do want it to be like is for us to both feel equipped, to both feel safe, to feel like a team and that's gonna take some

steps. Like you've just said, that might be might feel a little patronising or might feel a little like unnecessary, but are going to work towards the culture that you do want for your family. Hmm. I think a big thing too is, you know. Again I want to speak to the guys here. This is this seems to be bought in you know means by by both sides of the couple like you. If you brought this to me and I'm like well it is what it is I like. It's funny that's gonna be such a kick in the. Guts.

I would just never talk about it again. Exactly. And then it's just going to be the way that it is. And that's not fair on you. But the same time, let's say two, I love working on this. You know, I don't know. I've got a long way to go. I really do. But I love it when I'm like, oh, I know what I've done. Like, oh, I've, you know, I've done, I've looked at the shopping list and I've asked what else you want to be in. I I love that because I know the

difference. Alarming and and it's it feels like petty talking about the shopping list. The shopping list is like one of the smallest things that we're talking about right now. It's a very good example, they. Don't. Yeah, don't get caught up on the shopping list thing. It's just a small thing that started this conversation for us. Yeah, so when you guys having this conversation at home, move on from just the shopping list. It's not a shopping list

conversation. It's a mental load in general conversation. Yeah, yeah. As I was going through it, I even said to play before like a few of these are things that I I do see in our relationship and. It's not nervous. Not to be critical. It's not to be critical because there's so much that there's so much that goes into how we've ended up this way. And I was even saying when we were preparing to, I don't know how I ended up in this role. Like, I'm really intrigued by

how this happens. Not because it's been done to me, but like I wasn't super independent or super well established in managing a household before we got together. And you actually were really independent and very, very capable in managing your household. So it's funny that this just naturally is how it progresses. Going to run by you to see how you see it or what you feel about it.

Do you think that because I work more than you and you're at home more with the kids and surrounded by that, do you think that has a big part to play in it? So. The other part too is so my burnout. I didn't work for about a year right now. This was isn't completely true because I was having a lot of mental health issues that you still have to take step in for, which is a whole other thing. And you had to get counselling over my burnout too, right?

Like it was a big, big thing. But that season of me being a stay at home, Dad opened my eyes so much more to the mental load stuff because I had. I couldn't rely on you anymore. Yeah, you weren't there. You were working. I was at home with the kids, our kids went in school, yet I was at home with the kids and all of those things did come on to me. So I feel like it gave me a whole other level of

appreciation of what you did. Well, my mum used to do when other mums do and and now like there's a there's a lot more to stay at home dads now than ever before. I had this whole level of appreciation for the stay at home parent. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that in terms of obviously it's not the answer, but how much of that would be impacting? It I definitely think that played a part.

I also think my personality days apart like I'm I'm a warrior, so I just not a warrior, Like a fighter, like A warrior, like a warrior. I buy more nails and I worry. It's usually felt like worry. I'm a warrior woman. I'm a warrior woman. I mean, yeah, you are. You are. I I am an anxious personality.

I can be anxious. And so my mind is the kind of mind that would overthink things or would like, you know, see things that could happen and catastrophic thinking and how to prevent the things that I'm catastrophically thinking about and that kind of thing. So I think there's that aspect

too. There's how you how you brought up would be a part of it. Like your family dynamics, the roles that your parents played, how you just naturally fall into them. Like I said, I wasn't super like what would you call it? Not maternal cause it's not motherhood but super woman neuronal.

There it is one. Arnold I wasn't like in that role before we were together, but because I had seen more traditional roles in my parents, potentially when we did get together was like, OK, that's where I'm going. So my brain just went there. But I did actually look up a

couple of things that will help. There's a study that was done by someone who is a student at Harvard, I believe that was really interesting on mental load and also just a few points on why it is that it usually ends up the woman with more mental loading and why the man might struggle to identify it. So firstly there was a a study done by this student called Allison Damager and it is on the household labour or the cognitive dimension of household labour.

To be specific, which is the cognitive side of the household labour? Which is a lot of words. Yeah, a lot of words, exactly. And she really interestingly dived, divided mental load into four different aspects. So there's anticipating, identifying, deciding and monitoring. And so anticipating means looking ahead at what's coming. So you could put the example they they have in this article is anticipating this, this school year that's coming, looking for schools.

You know, you need to get a school for your kids. You're like, oh, I need to get on to that as anticipating. That's part of the mental load. Then there is identifying, and that involves things like setting up tours to schools or identifying what options of schools are around or talking to your friends about what schools might be good, or thinking about your kid and what they might need in their school, that kind

of thing. So you've got, you've anticipated that's coming up. I need to get on to it. Then you've identified what's around, what are the options. Then the next step is deciding. So choosing the best school for your kid, you've gone to the tours, now you're deciding on it. You're deciding on what works for your budget, you're deciding on what works for your house. And then the 4th one is monitoring.

So that is making sure all the paperwork is in, is making sure all the school supplies are ready, all their uniforms are ready, that the child's ready for first day. So there's four different steps to mental load, looking ahead, recognising what you need to do to do that, making decisions once you've recognised what needs to be done, and then also monitoring on the other side to make sure it's been done well.

And so when they did this study, they looked at 35 different sets of parents specifically and try to figure out where the tasks sat within the couple. And they found out that women were much more likely to handle the anticipating part, the first part. So flagging this is coming up, we got to think about this, everything about this, and then also more likely to handle the monitoring on the other side to

make sure it's been done well. Well then they said that they're deciding making the decisions tractor was fairly equal between the two, so it wasn't necessarily super one sided. They also didn't have for some reason the result for identifying. So the part where you're looking at what schools are good, I'm assuming that's kind of part of the deciding factor because you're looking at this school's good and this school's good and then you decide on the school.

So it's probably more of a partnership thing. I thought that was really interesting because I think that plays out big time in our relationship. Hmm. I will. Things like doctor's appointments or yeah, the school stuff was a big thing too, getting that stuff in and then also making sure all the little things are done, like their applications were done where their birth certificates are, so I can get their birth certificates on their

applications. If it's if you talking about doctors appointments, going on the other side of a doctor's appointment and being like, Oh yeah, I need to get back to the ENT to get into them, get their grommets checked. And that's a year from now. So I gotta make sure I'm doing that. And then whenever they complain of a sore ear, I'm like, oh, when is that doctor's appointment about the grommets kind of thing? Whereas you don't have much of that follow.

Up not not at home, but I do with work and this was gonna you model. So yeah, that's that's I think that's the case is like we said at the beginning generalising. So you would have mental light for work 100%. This is more talking about the mental load that ends up in the household. Hmm. How do they? Does it say anything about how they get to that point? Like how do they measure that?

So, OK, so just hearing you say that, I'm like, OK, well I'll do all those things at work, but why does not translate? To home, yeah. Is there anything in there? About So I looked up another thing which is, and this is just to be honest, it was just GPT. I just asked why guys can't do mental load and they it came back with a few things and I thought they were pretty good. So there's five things that whereas identified that may feed into why guys don't carry the

mental load at home as often. So socialisation, which is like traditional gender roles that are assigned to women as primarily responsible for the household and emotional labour, while men may be socialised to prioritise other aspects like work life or personal pursuits. So that's one thing and I think that would be a huge thing and like you said, probably changing as we go forward. Second lack of experience.

Men might not have first hand experience with the mental burden of managing multiple tasks and responsibilities, especially if they haven't been actively involved in the household and caregiving duties. So as we've also identified before mums, when you have a child, there's so much, even just physically, that is just automatically. The mom is just automatically kind of fed right into that

role. Being pregnant, giving birth, breastfeeding, the connection that you have with your kid, not that you're the dad doesn't have it, but there's just this level of comfort that the mom provides for the baby in the first year that is often very special. So you're just very quickly put

right into that role naturally. And so I think the more opportunities to kind of to balance out some of those mental loads in that for in those first moments of establishing your family whether it's as a couple or as a as parents, if it's not caught and and established then it'd be really easy to just that's the pattern that you go into.

The man doesn't have experience managing how many feeds a day the baby needs and when it needs to nap and how to get the kid to school while the baby is napping cause he's been at work and it's been automatically the man's role. And so when you don't have experience and you don't have that kind of repetition of that task, it would automatically not be on the top of the guy's mind. It's interesting is you sharing that stuff too. And and again this is an unfinished thought hmm. But I'm.

I'm in my head. I remember back to a conversation I had with a friend of mine. Now we've got a daughter and multiple boys. He has a daughter and multiple boys and we, me and my mate, we're making this observation that our daughter. So I believe for us we've given equal responsibility amongst our kids. Right. And especially looking after our youngest.

You know, I mean we encourage them all to do, to feed him to you know get his clothes to like get him off the window with his climbing up the window and or at the doggy door, whatever else. I feel like we've actually tried to really. I feel like we've we've done a pretty good job in sharing a load across all of them. But our daughter who is the third oldest I feel naturally sees things and that sort of forward projection stuff, this is maybe observed from you.

I don't know what it is, but both of my mate were both saying that we see this natural, maternal or woman, woman, anal, whatever. We decided to call it role coming out in our daughters already, and they're so young. So I wonder if it is something that you guys are just built with. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's just observations that you just see. Yeah. Well, something, I don't know, that's just really fascinating. Can you look at such young ages? I'm like, but I'm already seeing that.

Yeah. And I she has not been taught more than our oldest. I think it's really important to say that just because one partner is more natural at that and usually will be the female, that is not a bad thing Like it. No, I don't think at all. It's bad that I'm more naturally in tuned into these things. The reason this conversation is important is that these things can go unsaid and actually there's there's a big aspect of it not being noticed.

And one thing when you did become a stay at home dad that I think was really important for us was that the stuff that you would and not that, not that you ever said anything or were even very judgmental at all like that, but there was like stuff it would literally be in my head. You would come home and I would think, Oh, my gosh, the house looks like a mess. And I'm a mess when I'm tired and everything stressful. And I've got nothing to prove.

Like, I've got nothing to prove that it was stressful. And I did stuff today. Hmm. And you were always amazing. Like, you never made me feel bad about that. But I know that when you did start being with the kids, you were like, Oh my gosh, I got done. And I was like, I know. We can relate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there's a huge part of it that whether the partner says anything or doesn't say anything again, the mom guilts stuff is in your head or the woman guilt stuff is in your head.

And I'd be super intrigued to know how it does differ from like, couples that aren't parents to couples that our parents I'd be. We were parents so quickly, so we didn't have long enough to. Well I had this conversation with the guy this afternoon that was is not apparent and he was like it was really interesting cause he was coming from a perspective of I don't really struggle with that though.

Like he didn't get what I was talking about because he's like why would I not look for this can I use the shopping analogy example And he's like why would you not look through the thing And yeah this one example but again and I'll speak to a lot of dads to my work and when I'll share about mental it's his light bulb goes off like ohhhhh man, I I get that. I see how I do that and you don't even realise it.

Yeah, and I think that's probably a different, but again, I've shared it with other guys that are don't have kids and they're like Oh yeah, I do that too, but nowhere near as much. It's I feel like it's more for the dads than this the non parent dies. And maybe if you're listening and you are in a relationship that you're you don't have

children. I would love to hear from you how this plays out because we know the parents side, we don't know the the non parent side very well because it's such a little in our lives. Yeah. So there's a few other things that ChatGPT told me that may play into it. The invisibility of tasks which we've spoken about already. These tasks are so hard to identify. So they're not even tasks half

the time. Half the time they're they're mental task in terms of like something that takes up energy, but they're not something that you will ever see the results of the amount of things everyday that I think about. For one thing I overthink. So I really I wish there was a way to stop doing that. But you would have no idea the amount of little, little pieces that I'm just constantly like thinking about. And you will do some of them. But I think our brains just work so, so differently.

Yeah, our brains work differently and males and females brains work differently and there's a whole bunch of mixes in in amongst that. So the invisibility of the tasks being so hard to identify for the person doing it themselves and then even more so for the person that isn't doing it. I think that's a big reason why the mental load gets imbalanced. Elaborate what you mean by invisibility of tasks. So the example they have is such as remembering appointments and

anticipating needs. It might be less visible or easily overlooked by those who aren't directly responsible for them. So because you're not directly responsible for my dentist appointments or or even the kids doctor's appointments, there's very few times that you've ever had anything to do with taking the kids. And actually one of the one of the ones that's not listed there is deciding if they need to go to the doctor or not. And in the early days, our kids were sick all the time.

And I get stressed. I get really stressed about them being sick. And I remember us having conversations where I'm like, I need you to tell me if you think they need to go because I would just sit there and be like are they sick enough to go to the doctors? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And it's just like round and round and round and, like, literally made me feel sick, Like heavy because I just, I had to decide if I take my kid to

the doctor or not. And even that didn't sit in your head the same way. Like you would be like, oh, they're sick. And I hate that. But that would kind of be the extent of it. Yeah. So things like that, like thinking, oh, they're sick, I should take him to the doctor, but I can't take them to that doctor because that doctor's closed or your call before 8:30 to get them into the doctor

there. And if that doctor doesn't have appointments, I'm going to have to either take them to emergency department, if I take him to the emergency department, blah blah, that kind of thing. A perfect example of teamwork, right? Because again, women's brains and men's brains are different, you know, and and I think for me, I can compartmentalise things better than you. And so again, yeah, OK, I've got my areas I need to work on.

Mental load is one of them. But at the same time, when you're in a space where you can't process your thoughts, you can't trust your thoughts or whatever else, I can be that more clarity to the situation because I can compartmentalise. Because I I think back in early days though too, I was a learning curve for me too, because I don't know what it is with us guys and going to the doctors. And that's a whole other topic too. But even with the kids, I think I was like, oh, no, they're

fine. They're fine. But that wasn't helpful for you to just say like, no, no, they're fine. They're fine. I had to say in a way that you would receive it and that would actually calm your brain down. No, they're not fine. They are fine because last time the doctor said this, this and this. We haven't seen those symptoms yet. We haven't seen those symptoms yet. So we don't need to do that yet. We will go do that when we get to this point or if they get to

this point sometimes as well. It was just a matter of I could see where you were at. I'm like, Yep, you take them to the doctor. It wasn't even for the kids sake, it was for your sake, right. That was another learning curve for us as well. So to yeah, just so we don't come across like we're guy bashing here. Because. I don't like getting bashed. It's not that we're not doing that. We're just talking about this is an area genuinely, genuinely, generally.

Generally. A guy struggle with go talk with other stuff too, so this is a way that we can complement. The fourth thing that Chachi PT told me was that there might be communication barriers that play into it. She thought Podcast on that my. Gosh, some men and women may not effectively communicate about the division of labour and the emotional toll of mental load, leading to misunderstandings or assumptions about each other's roles and responsibilities.

I think that kind of plays into the previous one, they invisible tasks. It'd be easy to look at someone carrying mental load and think, you know, they're not doing this, this and this, or they could do that easy because they that's all they've got to do today and not think about the invisible parts of it. And if you can't communicate as the partner, that's balancing that. Like I said, I didn't have a fight. I didn't have terminology around it.

It was very hard for me to say, yeah, but I get stressed about it. Like, what does that? That doesn't mean anything. It's like, OK, don't get stressed about. Yeah, like I'll. OK, I'll get stressed about it then. It doesn't. That doesn't communicate well. So if you don't have the terminology around it, you don't have like an understanding of what's happening for you and you can't communicate it, it's not going to. It's going to be really hard to tackle that because they only

know what they know. It's same thing as we've spoken about before. Until I can communicate what's going on for myself, it's kind of still my responsibility than what I can communicate it. Then it becomes our responsibility and our teamwork on it. And then the 4th, the fifth one, is cultural norms. So cultural norms and expectations around masculinity may discourage men from acknowledging or addressing issues related to emotional labour and mental load, viewing

them as signs of weakness or femininity. I think that's probably why the people that ride in the most are guys, because the feedback that I've had is guys don't talk about this and I'm so passionate about that too. Again, this is a lot of my work in the fathering space is there's so many unknowns and you don't know how to talk about it. You don't know who you can talk to about it cause what's the safe space, right. And so absolutely I see that because that's a huge fear for a lot of guys.

Well, we might identify something, but doing anything about it for a lot of guys is is like pulling a tooth out, like they're just we just really struggle to do anything about our situation. And I think I think the reason is, is because we don't know what's safe. I feel like for me especially, and a lot of guys I've spoken to, we need to feel safe. We don't feel safe. We'll avoid. We will get anxious. When we get anxious, we'll shut down, we'll barriers up, all

that sort of stuff. Yeah, I think it's probably people in general, but because I'm a guy, I don't identify them myself. But if I don't feel safe, I react in many different ways, negative ways. Safety is a really, really big. Thing. And I don't think it's easy to identify that in a guy. I don't think it's easy for me to look at you reacting out of a lack of security and see oh, he's he's not feeling secure.

What I see not not you specifically, just in general, but also you as well, like what I see is is a defensiveness or a see a like an aggression or I see a this is not Blair, just to clarify. No, it's to a point. It is, Yeah, to a. Point it is or like a an apathy apathy. Empathy. No apathy, Like, couldn't care. Like brushing it off. Like brushing it off. You're not interested in it. It's not important distraction, like there's so many ways that

it would play out. It doesn't look like that scared little boy in the corner. Like it's not something that immediately evokes A ohi I'm feeling. Really. I feel for you feeling insecure in it because of how it plays out. So it's a it's a just this messy little conversation or messy little lack of conversation that can happen if you're not feeling secure and you're acting out of your insecurity.

I'm not seeing it as insecurity. I'm seeing it as something more aggressive, yeah, or something less interested. And so then my reaction is reacting to this anyway. It's just a good cycle. I think this is actually something is going through my brain now and I think this is really important to identify and not not putting it all on this. I think there's other factors in it too.

But one of the reasons why I feel like I would put mental load on you is because you are safe, you know and I know again I'm actually shopping thing but it's it's just an analogy, it's just an example. I don't deal with stress well, right? I don't deal with looking like a fool. Well, I don't deal with anxiety well for a lot of guys and and probably girls too. I'm not a female. I don't know. But for a lot of guys, it's fight or flight.

And the flight part is something that we don't talk about a lot. We talk a lot about the fight part, but we don't talk about the flight part a lot. And that comes out in the in the barriers, in the defensiveness, in the avoidance, in all these different areas. And I think it's really important to understand because, again, if a couple is going into this conversation as a female talking to a male, if you do not come at it in a safe way, there's gonna be fight or

flight. There's gonna be defensiveness as the fight. There's going to be flight as in barriers go up and shutting down and that's where again the conversation is really important. When the conversation stops it, it allows room for the barriers to go up. The if the conversation is done badly, the barriers going up anyway. If the conversation can be identified that needs to be had by both parties and can done in a safe environment.

I really, I would not be the man I am today if you were not safe. And I've said that before like the conversations that we've had have have been as fruitful as they've been. Our relationship is in is in the places in now because you've allowed us to have a safe space. Yeah. We would not be in the place we did if if this was not a safe environment. And I think again, just through everything that we've been speaking about, it was another light bulb moment that went on for me.

I'm like, Oh yeah, cause I I know that if I think back to a small scenario like going to the shops in doing groceries, I want to do that. I want to be the. I wanna be reliable. I wanna do this. If I have a hint that I'm not and I'm gonna and I'm going to let down you or I'm going to let down someone else, I'm gonna flight. I'm gonna shut down. I can't do it. Amy, help me.

You know, I'm gonna get to that little boy phase of I need you to help me tell me what to do. Or I was like, no, you do it. Hmm. Which I haven't done. But like, that's easy for me to get to is I know you do it. I'm shutting down. You can't do it. Yeah. Which is really interesting because as you're saying that it, which I fully, fully appreciate and I think is totally accurate, how does that play out when it's the woman then carrying the mental load of? That that's what I'm saying.

It has to be that mutual thing Jermaine. Like it's not now it's your responsibility for me to deal with my stuff. It's not that I, you know when we when we go to the other. I was intentional about dealing with my staff right. I've always been intentional about growing becoming a better man better dad all that's better husband, all that sort of stuff in that process. While I'm trying to do that and that's where I'm again I'm putting that shout out to the guys step up.

This is your responsibility. You know you need to own this. You need to go on that journey of growing and becoming better. You need to do that. You know the the benefit the bonus that I have is that I've got you you know, I mean and now my growth is so much greater because I've got you. It's not reliant on you. It's the fact that it's better because of you and it's so much more freeing rewarding and I I

have no concerns about our relationship because I feel so safe and confident in it because of the way that we've established that safety for each other and and we've allowed that growth for each other. You don't put your stuff on me. I don't put myself on you, but I own your stuff and you own my stuff because we're A-Team. Yeah, that's the big difference. It's not me saying like, I know. I mean, you need to carry me and help me through all my things, blah, blah.

No, no, I'm working on my stuff. I need to own that and I will own that while I'm doing that. We are a team and you are bringing so much more to my growth than if I was doing it on my own. Yeah, I think it's really important to highlight that we had this conversation the first time, let's say two years ago and it started with the grocery talk. Then that kind of expanded a

little bit. Even tonight, when I was going through this list, I was like, there are still lots of things that I carry the mental load for and I will. And I don't think, I don't think the point of this is the woman shouldn't carry the mental load. I think the point of it is have the conversation about about that mental load because if if it's unsaid, that's when the mismatch expectations and the hurt can come in and the imbalance.

But there's still things on this list that I went through that I was like, oh, yeah, that's I do that. Blair hasn't done that. I do that. But not in like a Blair doesn't do it. It's just that's how we naturally play out. So one really important thing sort of talking about that being a secure, safe place. If you come into this conversation, if you're like, yeah, yeah, this mental alert. I need to talk to my partner about it. And you come in and say this, this, this, this, this, this,

this, this, this. You don't do that. I do that. I do all of this. You don't do this. There's like 25 things. These are the things straight off the bat, we need to work on these. It's not going to be fruitful. Hmm. You're safe. You can have a general talk. Like I think we did have a a general talk when we first brought up. It wasn't just groceries. That's the first thing. I was like, this is really interesting. And then we talked about what that might look like.

Generally. I didn't sit there and say I didn't even know what they were for one thing. But I also didn't sit there hopefully and say it's this, it's this, it's also this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is this. And it's like pile it on you because how immobilising would that be?

The way that you did it was you literally show me that real domain and you said hey what do you think about this and that's what you guys can do You can you can go through this episode together and just ask a question what do you think about that like do you think this is something that you know how do we go with this and and and for the female you can share like oh actually resonate with this for a little bit and and with the guy you could be like yeah you know again really reflects

really have a look at yourself in a non critical judgmental way. It's seriously just you know let's let's grow together mentality but and just have that conversation in there like what are your thoughts on this topic start there. Yeah. And yeah, and like, even use us as an excuse and be like, I heard this podcast and I was like, Oh my goodness, that's what I wrestle with. So this is, this is, this is concept that I've now learned about mental load. And that's why I'm always stressed.

And yeah, that I think about like, you don't see this, but this is what I'm navigating. And so like you can use this as an excuse if you need to like to start that conversation. One big thing was you helped me understand what's going on in your brain. Yeah, you know, I mean, it wasn't even just a matter of like, I'm putting all this mental load on you. You actually came from the perspective of helping me understand what's going on in

your mind. Yeah. So cause you owned it a little bit too. You owned it in terms of you never communicated that with me that that was happening because you didn't know, right. Like you, you, but you could have known and bottled. Stuff communicates. We're not communicated. So that's the other part too. It's not just a conversation about the guys doing all these things wrong. And in some circumstances, the girls doing the same thing.

It's not about that. It's about helping them understand what's going internally for you. Yeah, yeah. So I guess like similar challenge that you just put out to the guys, I would put the challenge out to the women. You, you might be listening to this and feeling frustrated and exhausted because you're like, yeah, he doesn't do these things, he doesn't see it, he doesn't get it, blah blah blah, whatever it might be. I would challenge you to be like genuinely have I spoken to him

about it? Have I genuinely made it clear to him? Sometimes the answer to that is going to be yes. You have tried to make it clear and he hasn't picked it up and that is valid. So not trying to excuse it, not saying that it's your problem, that he's not helping or aware of it, or he's being critical of you even though he doesn't understand it, but just do that, that second of a check in with yourself and and think, have I communicated this clearly with him?

If I haven't, am I willing to? If you are not willing to communicate it with him, if you aren't willing to have that awkward conversation, you need to to think well, what is that gonna result in? Where do I want to be in 5-10 years time? Am I gonna be happy if what we're. If the patterns were in right now are just going to be reinforced and reinforced because I just don't want to have that conversation or because it's just easier for me to do these things.

That's a huge thing actually with mental load. One of the main reasons is when the partner just doesn't do the thing right and there has to be a learning curve. There has to be a an awkward time. If you're wanting to hand over some of these tasks, some of this mental load, you you have to be aware that there's gonna be a time where things might get missed. Things might be sloppy, things might not be done the way that

you want it to be done. But just because it's not done the way that you would do it or the way you want it done, doesn't mean it's not a progress. And so just being aware of how they communicated it, Where do I wanna go? Am I satisfied to stay this way? And if I am, I need to kind of own that. Cause I'm not, I'm choosing not to communicate it properly.

If I'm not satisfied to stay this way, am I willing to go through the process of it being an awkward transition time, having to kind of be consistent with communicating through it and be willing to be OK with things being done outside of your control, outside of the way? Because that's a huge thing for me. It's really hard to watch someone do something in a way that I don't think is the right way, but you're not going to get anywhere if you if you keep trying to do it all.

This is a good one. I I really enjoyed this because again, it's something I'm still working on and I just, yeah, again, the amount of conversations I have with guys where the light bulb goes off. Hmm. Yeah, it's an annoying thing to struggle with, but it's a great thing to identify and it's an awesome thing to work on together, yeah. Yeah, I think we could talk about it for hours, but we're going to leave it there.

Yeah, we had a little more topics, more examples and scenarios, more than just the groceries. But. We just can't get there. We can have that conversation by ourselves. We don't need. That we can Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Can I have? Yeah. Alright, so the can you please give us feedback on our outros? I really want bad feedback on our trees or ideas. Hmm.

So maybe you guys can write in the Natural for us as well. That'll be fantastic. This week's one done by Chat TPT, and that's the rap on today's high octane conversation at Honey. We need to chat, buckle up and hold tight because as long as there's another topic on the horizon, how thrilling ride through the twists and turns of relationships isn't slowing down. Gear up for more action next week. Until then, keep the conversations fiery and the Connections Ohio Ectric. Gosh, I see.

Bye. Thanks for the chat.