Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati. This week breakthroughs on the Grid. If you're caught up on the last few episodes of Zero, we've been talking about the grid, how it so magically brings electricity into our homes, and what is going to take to update and upgrade the grid as we electrify more and more of our world. A good amount of the grid is visible. You've seen miles and miles of cables that bring you electricity, more than thirty million miles actually, but there's a lot that you
don't see. You don't see or hear about the people whose labor and ideas make the grid better. So in our third episode and for now final episode of the Grid series, we look at one such innovation. What if instead of rolling out new cables, we gave the old ones a high tech makeover. I don't know if there's it's I'm sure I'm missing something. It just it makes no sense to me that this is not bendable.
If you have a sharp age here, yeah, it's gonna snap. Yes, that had been the problem of the order generation product. Yeah. When you have the aluminum protectingly carbon core, yeah, now you can bend it. You will yield. But you were nasnat.
That's Jason Hung. He has a PhD in material science, and he's used that expertise to launch a startup focused on equipping the grid with a new generation of extremely durable cables. Because we'll talk a lot about cables in this episode, let me try to tell you a little bit more. First, the cables that are deployed for high voltage transmission, essentially those hanging between pylons, look nothing like
a normal wire. It's not just a bigger version of a cylindrical copper wire covered in insulation, the kind you use for a phone charger. Instead, it's a steel cable that provides strength to a bunch of insulated aluminum wires that are wound around the steel cable, all of which is then wrapped in insulation. TS Conductor's main innovation has been replacing the steel cable core with a carbon fiber core and making circular aluminum cables be trapezoidal in shape.
That means they can use the space more efficiently, and Monk tells me these new cables can carry as much as three times more electricity, a game changer and maybe the first of many big innovations on the grid that will cumulatively have huge impacts. I sat down with Jason at the Breakthrough Energy Summit in London in June to find out more. Jason, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, Thanks for the opportunity to be here.
Now, there's a term that I know you're very familiar with, but which listeners may or may not be familiar with. Reconductoring. It refers to replacing old transmission lines with sturdy, new high capacity conductors. And one reason is to make the lines stronger, strong enough to be able to withstand heavy winds, durable enough to have very little sagging, because sagging lines can spark wildfires. But there's another reason, which has to
do with the energy transition. Can you explain what reconductoring is.
Yeah. Reconductoring typically refers to the need to use a different conductor than the conductor that's used. This involved two situations. One is you don't have to retrofit any struck. The other one you may have to retrofit the structure, make them taller because there's a lot more sag, or the cross arms of the tower had to be strengthened because you're using a behavior conductor and I should add a comment about the reconductoring. Why utility does reconductoring. It is
actually principally driven by capacity. They have capacity constrain, a bottleneck, for example, so they are looking at a higher capacity conductor to the bottomneck the grid.
Well, but before we get to exploring how exactly TES conductor solves this problem, let's go to the basics of what a cable today looks like. Most people think it's going to be copper that carries electricity, but you said it's aluminum. Now I'm holding a piece of what a TS conductor wire would look like, and it's multiple layers of aluminum. And they're also not round, not all of them, some of them are flat. So why do we have this kind of structure today and why is it not copper?
That's an excellent question. Copper is simply too expensive and too heavy. When you compare copper with aluminium, copper is three times the weight of aluminum, and the cost of copper on a per pound basis is three times the cost of aluminum. So you are looking at copper versus aluminum, it's a nine x cost and for a connectivity that is less than two x, So it's a lousy trade
off in terms of using copper for overhead lines. In terms of traditional conductor, why we use normally round aluminum strand and steer being round as well steer wires In the conventional conductor simply round is easier to make, but you also leave a lot of space in between these round strand because there are a lot of gaps in there, and that is a poor usage of the conductor space. In the TS configuration, we use trapsort or wire, and the trap wire gives you a much greater packing density.
We can achieve easily in ninety three percent packing or more around they're probably by seventy three percent, So you're able to integrate more aluminum with the trap wire. So it's a better design, a better way to build a conductor.
Now, when I heard about your company first, and you are in the business of reconductoring, you're in the business of making cables that can carry two or three times as much electricity as cables today do. When I first heard about it, I was surprised that that is something that can be done. You know, I understand you can get some increase in conductance, but two times three times is that surprise? Normal? Or is this an industry secret that just never got out of the industry.
Think twice the capacity. You have other technologies who actually could achieve it. The challenge is can you do it without retrofitting the structures. That's important. What's unique about TS technology is it's actually reflected in the name T and S. The T stands for technology. It is really about material science and the technology. We simply integrate the best material science had to offer today in building conductor, not over one hundred years ago, what was available and what we
have in TS. We use the most conductive type of aluminum. We also use carbon fiber composite as a strength number. It is the lightest way possible or strongest core material possible, yet at the same time, it has no summer expansion. That's what allows this conductor to, for example, run at high temperature without the sagging issue. Why because the carbon core doesn't have a summer expansion, and it allows us to add far more aluminum to the conductor without the
weight penalty. Why because when the steel is replaced with carbon core, we save about eighty percent of the weight from steel. So you're packing the better conducting aluminum and you are not creating the weight penalty. And lastly, a neared aluminum, which is more conductive. They do not have strengths. However, with carbon composite it is twice the strength of steel.
You actually end up with a conductor that is stronger, even though the aluminum is less strong compared to other aluminum options.
Now you're going to do two things in replacing old wires. You're going to increase the density of the aluminum wire. You're going to change the type of aluminum that is used so that it can carry more power. And then the most important thing is that you're replacing the core, the thing that holds all of this together, from steel to carbon fiber. All of that sounds fun and clearly, if you can make this work, all the great people
would want you to provide these cables. At what stage are you at deploying this technology at a commercial scale.
We have been doing volume manufacturing of TS conductors and we've been doing commercial deployment since twenty twenty one. Our first commercial deployment here in US is with Montana Dakota Utility early twenty twenty one. It's a two hundred and thirty kV line. We were able to save the utility
about forty percent in total project apex. And since that time, we have also been working with utilities on new transmission lines because we're able to enable fewer and shorter structures building new lines as long as we're included in the d design phase so that you can fully leverage what TS can offer.
And so you've been deploying since twenty twenty one. What's the total number of miles of cables that you have deployed so far?
Yeah, they're in the thousands in terms of kilometers or miles. And we have been very blessed with utility support, but not all utilities are anxious to jump on new technologies. And when you look at US utilities, it is a target rich environment. You got more than one hundred you must own utilities. There are thousands of municipal utility and co ops. So there are plenty of utility who are nimble, who are proactive, and we have been blessed with utilities that are more progressive.
But there's a start that I recently saw and it really jumped out at me because it said that the world will need to nearly double its electric grid to one hundred and eleven million kilometers. That's a distance equal to almost three quarters of the way to the sun. So we're talking about all this grid groundwork that has been laid since eighteen eighty, one hundred and forty years ago, and now all of that needs to be doubled in
the next twenty five years. When did you realize that the grid challenge is something you wanted to work on?
One, it is the opportunity to make a difference for humanity for the world, especially when you talk about climate change, energy transition. This is the existential threat for humanity, and it is also about preserving the environment for future generations. So it's a worthy effort. We have been very blessed with a great technology, perfect timing as well, and along the way we really were blessed with investors who share
our perspective. By the way, we're a public andfit corporation in the US, and our public benefit focus is sustainable development in greenhouse gas emission reduction. We take that very seriously.
Now, the powerlines that are currently in use, the ones that have these round cables, are designs that date back to the nineteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, and they are definitely due for an upgrade. But why did it take so long for somebody like a TS conductor to come in and think of a new design. It just baffles my mind that we did not think of this efficiency gain just in packing design, if not in carbon fiber material until now.
That's a great question. I think we have to recognize power grade utility companies. They are monopoly by design. They do not have to innovate or compete the way private industries though, and they are also risk avers. They have an intense focus on safe and reliability longevity of their transmission asset. And with all of that in mind, new technology adoption by the power grid is very slow and
very challenging. Yes, only one hand. There are technologies that take advantage of the trapsoid or close packing even with traditional conductor. I've seen conductors offered by manufacturers to do that. But fundamentally progress in conductor is dependent on material science progress, and when you have better materials, you have better conductor options.
But when you have better conductors, you also have to check the box for the utility in terms of their concern on practicality, safety, reliability, longevity easy to work with that is not easy. There are older generation advanced conducts. They have failed in that category. This is really where TS shines the name TS. The second part of the later s. It is about safety. It is about safety reliability design into the product that is done through this
aluminum encapsulation. Protection for the carbon composite core that had been missing in the prior generation product.
So you said, there are material science developments that you needed to be able to make the TS conductor cable that you sell today. What specifically were the material science developments.
Yeah, when you look at the evolution of conductors, you know, we have steel. One hundred years ago, the steel wasn't as strong, and then later on the steel industry was able to offer higher strength steelers. So the sagging problem we steal. In, the corrosion problem we steal. You have to address that. So this is why posit core came in. That reduces the sommer expansion which is a sac and also reduces the weight, which allows you to build the
towers lighter and shorter and span them further. So the composite came around initially with a glass carbon hybrid core to replace stel. It wasn't as ideal because you cannot use these conductors for heavy ice regions, for regions that has very long span or wind blowout. And when it came to TS, we did not have to use fiberglass because we can use our aluminium encapsulation as the corrosion
barrier against galvanic corrosion. So we can get rid of fiberglass, allow more aluminum to be integraded into our conductor, and you have better properties from carbon composite. And then on top of that we have this protective layer of the aluminum encapsulation protection that's made the technology work. This is all evolution of material science.
And you got me a sample of the core, the composite core. I'm holding a feet long black plastic looking thing. It is hard. I don't want to bend it. I feel like I might break it. Yeah, how can a cable which you look at a pylon and it looks like a slightly elongated U shape come from this which looks like a hard thing that might break if I try and sag it.
That's an excellent question because that's also what made this technology pandable. When this concept originally were developed, the initial or thought was is this even practical? Because you have to loop the conductor in the spool and ship it to the job site. Right. They were able to wrap it in a real in the initial concept trial. That's what made this technology special because it is against conventional wisdom.
This is why the inventor is not from the conductor industry, because anybody who worked in the conductor industry like the connector to be flexible, and when it is stiff like that, it won't work. However, the composite core, especially with the aluminium encapsulation protection, you actually have more bendable. It takes more force, but it can be bend into a tighter radius. And that's why it is robust in the field. That you're not going to be breaking the composite when it
is mishandled in the field. So if I try and bend it will break without protection. It might if the radius is too small, but if you have the aluminum encapsulation on one, you won't have enough strengths to bend it too. If you do bend it, it has that ability to accommodate the bendings better than the unprotected composite core.
Now, you talked about thousands of miles in the US, but I'm assuming reconductoring has to be done all around the world. The grid has been quite an old grid, especially in developed countries. So are you getting interested in reconductoring in other parts of the world. Yes.
I was actually in Poland on Monday and they are very interested in our technology. I'm flying to Romania in n in Turkey. So we are seeing TS getting recognized and being made aware to international utilities as well. That's been one of our challenges because we're a US based company. We're being focused on execution in supporting US customers, so we're not as well known and we oftentimes get lumped with the older generation advanced conductor or the problems that
were associated with the older generation product. They were automatically assumed on TS, and we have to do a better job articulating why TS is different. How we solve the problem for the utilities, including technical performance, affordability as well as practicality in terms of workmanship in the field, and is there any longevity, reliability, safety concerns. We check all of those boxes.
Are there incidents of previous generation of advanced conductors that caused utilities to become much more conservative?
Yes, that have been the case. That's why there is the bad perception in terms of older generation advanced conductor, they're delicate, they're difficult to work with, and they're easy to break.
Can you give me examples.
I'd rather refrain from that because these are, you know, in a way, our competition, and sometimes it's better kind of live it out because I don't want to ban mouse our supposedly competitions.
Jason was hesitant to trash his competitors, no surprise, but it kind of also makes sense because in this industry there's a lot on the line, no pun intended. In July, ts Conductor raised sixty million dollars. These days, raising that kind of money is a big deal. Jason did tell me about some of the failed scientific efforts others have tried, and it all gets a bit technical, but it comes down to the challenge of making a core cable that can withstand the stress the wire as a whole is
put under. Some have tried making the composite core out of ceramics or glass, but neither have proven to be durable enough. After the break, Jason and I talk about the market realities of reconductoring. And by the way, if you've been enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
It helps other listeners find the show. One reason why reconductoring is also crucial is because getting planning and permitting for new transmission lines is just becoming harder and harder almost everywhere, especially in developed countries in America and Europe. And so if you're able to replace the same cables of an existing transmission line with higher capacity, you can
avoid building a new transmission line to some extent. Is that what is driving the demand right now for reconductoring or are there other reasons that are driving the demand.
That is the exact reason, because building new lines is getting more and more difficult, as you stated, in terms of permitting reconductoring oftentimes you can do it without much of a permitting effort, especially when you can leave the towers alone. That you are just swapping the conductors and you can get two x or three x capacity with for example, or TS conductor. And that is also the fastest, the cheapest way of getting more capacity to our power grid.
So there is that economics in there as well. Think about it in the US, for example, if you build new lines, the cost of conductor they're very low. You know, one percent two percent, three percent is quite typical. On the structural related cost, they could be as much as thirty percent. So when you do reconductoring, you are only working with that one two three percent of the Now you are suddenly doubling or tripling the outcome the capacity. There's just no better way of getting a better return
compared to reconductoring. So that is the way to go.
So utilities are now knocking on your door, they want these cables. How are you manufacturing them? And how are you scaling up manufacturing?
Yeah, we have existing manufacturer operation in California. We are already expanding and we just leased another building and we're adding additional machines. We are also looking at building a mega facility in the East Coast. We'll make a decision in about a month in terms of where we will do the mega facility. Even that is probably just a small down payment in terms of the conductor manufacturing capacity that we need, just even for us long term.
And how big are these facilities, like how many miles of cable do they? Pretty annual basis.
Yeah, in California we can do three thousand myers of complete conductor and with two to three thousand miers of encapsuley core, which is the most essential element inside that we can use that partner with other companies that does conductors training for them to make the complete conductor. The East Coast expansion that we're looking at, we're looking at ten times capacity compared to our California operation.
Now, very few people tell me they're building a manufacturing plant in America, where land is more expensive, labor is more expensive, permitting is harder. They typically go to Asia.
How come you have, well, you have some other geopolitics involved. There's the own shore of manufacturing operations in the US, and even in the US, when you look at the power grade upgrade, the whole industry is handicapped. White supply chain constraint. Transformer could take four years, switch gears as much time as well. Conductors the lead time is fifty to seventy weeks. And the better way of delivering conductor is they are made in America so that they're not
dependent on foreign country. When there's something, you know, bad happens, you still have a secure supply chain in place.
But does that not make your product more expensive? Yes?
No, no, you know the product itself, it has a modest premium over conventional conductor. However, when you look at it from project cost spases, we offer better value than all the other options, whether you do new lines or reconductoring. So it is a situation that we can manage. And also utilities in the US, some of them are requiring made in America. That made it essential that we make the conductors in the.
But with demand coming from Europe, are you thinking of building a plant in Europe too?
Absolutely, because we need climate change solutions around the globe. You know you cannot just solve the problem in America or Western Europe. You also have to address needs in Africa Asia as well, So we will be building additional manufacturing facilities around the world to support energy transition.
And what could make you not succeed well, I.
Think there are a couple of things. One is execution. When you are managing a growth company, you have to have the talent in place to execute your growth strategy. I think, more than anything else, having the right people in place to execute is very important. The other part is we always have to keep our customer in mind. These are customers that they rely on you. We need to make sure we meet their expectation in product quality product, delivery time, and be able to continue to offer better
value for them. Thank or the other options somewhere I war to thank you Jason, Thank you very much, really appreciate the opportunity to be here.
Thank you for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode, please take a moment to rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with someone who likes trapezoids. If you haven't already listened to the other episodes in the Grid series, I would urge you to check out the previous two episodes where we talked to Keith Anderson, CEO of Scottish Power and to Sunjit Sanghera of the National Grid. And
now for the sound of the week. This one was suggested by Sunjee, who knows this sound all too well. That's the sound of an emergency circuit breaker at a substation. The voltages are so high that even when the metal connection is broken, electricity uses air itself as a way to complete the circuit, causing all that crackling sound. Fortunately, it only lasts for a little while, and these breakers
are crucial for delivering power safely. If you have a suggestion for a Sound of the week, or you have comments or questions, get in touch at Zero pod at bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is Mighty le Rau. Bloomberg's Head of Podcast is Sage Bowman and Head of Talk is Brendan Nuna. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly. Thanks to the Breakthrough Andage team for the recording space for this episode, and special thanks to Kira Bindram and Matthew Griffin. I am Akshadrati backed Soon