Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week, a former Conservative lambas his party. In the UK, it feels like a make or break moment for net zero. The country's forward thinking approach to climate change has for some years now been a source of pride. The UK was the first major economy to create a national climate law and to make a net zero commitment. All that has helped the UK cut the most emissions among the world's major economies.
It has also pushed other countries to move faster by leading the way at global climate summits, and the UK was pivotal in pushing through the twenty fifteen Paris Agreement. But the current government is moving away from all of that. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has diluted key policies and backtracked on green commitments. It's something I asked Chris Stark of
the Climate Change Committee about earlier this year. He acknowledged that the consensus that has existed across all political parties on climate action could finally be at a risk of crumbling. It's a consensus that's been taken for granted for more than a decade, and it's a bad time to lose it. But Stark was likely holding back in his criticism. This week, we weighed deeper into the reality of climate politics here
in the UK. Take a listen to what a former Conservative minister who just quit the party earlier this year had to tell me about his party's stance on climate and.
At its current states.
The Conservative Party is endangering people's lives, people's jobs, the opportunities for communities to grow further by taking a negative approach from rowing back on the energy transition.
That iss more. He spent fourteen years as a member of Parliament for the Conservatives. He was Energy Minister in twenty nineteen when then Prime Minister Theresa May signed into law net zero by twenty fifty, and later he was tasked by his own party to review whether net zero is good for the economy or not. You can tell where he landed after the Conservatives started rowing back on climate he could not in good conscious stay. In January, he quit the party and politics altogether. He now wants
to dedicate his life to getting net zero done. I interviewed Chris at the Climate Impact Summit in London last week, and he did not hold back on criticizing his former party or the weak position that the Labor Party, which is likely to come to power in the UK next is taking on the climate issue. Welcome to the Climate Impact Summit and welcome to the Zero Podcast. Chris.
Thank you for having me.
Even before we start and get into the conversation, it's worth acknowledging that you're a former historian, a former politician who is now a passionate campaigner for net zero. It's a conversion story that might seem unusual, but as a reporter, I've seen this happen many times, most recently here in the UK. Alok Sharma, who is a Secretary of State after being COP twenty six president, is now a passionate
campaigner for climate causes. What specifically makes such a conversion happen was there a moment when you realize that what you were doing was not just for government but was a calling.
I think for any sort of politician, when you start off as an elected member of parliament, you're jack of all trades.
You cover all different.
Sort of areas of policy, and over time, obviously some individuals focus on specific areas of policy. I originally was my background was trying to focus on education, and I became university as Minister, and for me, that was sort of.
Pinnacle of what I wanted to achieve.
The more I sort of got to focus on science and technology is also part of that role. I realized a lot of people were focusing on tackling climate, focusing on the energy transition, and actually the more I was exposed to this, the more I sort of realized this was the one thing that I wanted to focus on, and that was the sort of initial challenge I think where I knew I was eventually move away from politics. I didn't want to be that sort of politician that
tried to cover everything anymore. I just wanted to focus on one thing. When I signed that zera into law was coming up for five years, I genuinely didn't know at the time that moment would sort of trigger a
domino effect other countries. And I think what we've seen now policy catching up with the economics of the transition, that you are seeing a rapid decline a neural and gas, but the narrative, so this comes back to sort of the historian in me hasn't called up politicians and populism is still sort of focusing on trying to preserve the past. When this is a transition very similar to electricity to
the petrol car. It's going to happen, and for me, trying to articulate that has now become my passion and calls. But I knew when I did the net zero review and I sort of then began to focus down on net zero, I would probably have this sort of Thomas Moore moment where eventually I would have to be looking at myself in the mirror and saying, well, can I do what politicians do day and day out, which is cool, black is white, and defend my government against all the
evidence for delivering that zero. And I reached the sort of crossroads where I had to go because I realized that my priorities and everything I was focusing on now told me that new or and gas licenses were the wrong thing to do.
So, as a historian, need to say, you care a lot about the narratives at this political moment. It seems like the story that both conservatives and labor are campaigning on is that we are going too fast on net zero. But that's not what the science says, that's not what you believe.
So what do you.
Think is a winning strategy to change that? Narrative.
So we I think this false narrative that somehow there's going to be a more proportionate version of net zero. When I signed that zero into law, I was really conscious that I was meeting with climate groups of saying
net zero isn't going far enough. And this was very much a middle way of via media saying, look, we could still grow the economy and decarbonize at the same time, recognizing that there would be sort of new technological advances eventually coming on stream, but this is what we need to do now, and then obviously is what we need to buy twenty thirty. So this whole idea of net zero being somehow, or the calls of eco zalots, it's sort of completely false.
I think.
However, there is this challenge now, how do you look at the vested interests of those that are trying to maintain the status quo when the status co can't hold Actually looking at oil and gas, it's not just an environmental issue, it's an economic one. It's simply uneconomic to invest in oil and gas that it would only come on stream by twenty forty when the demand for aill and gas is dropping by about forty percent. And we
need to drop by sixty five percent. So for me, it's basing the argument in the facts and that might seem cold, and it's not meant to be unemotional, But what I don't want to do is see the climate movement sort of you somehow fall into an elephant trap of being sort of led by climate delayers who are now were the climate delaiyers, into being seen unreasonable.
We've got to keep our heads at the same time.
I know it's really frustrating, but how do you have that ability to prove that they're the extremists.
They are the Zalots, not you.
Well, emotions do take a hold of the narrative. We've seen here in the UK that the government has been pushing a strategy specifically tied to one election that happened in London, around pushing against a policy that was supposed to try and reduce the number of polluting cars. And they thought it's a winning strategy, and so they used what they thought was both an emotionally winning strategy but also a vote winning strategy and then applied it nationally.
Now we've just recently concluded local elections here in the UK, and that seems to have backfired. Conservatives did quite poorly. In fact, Liberal Democrats now have more council seats than the Conservatives too, and of course Laborer is at the top of that chart. So is the Conservative Party wrong to think that voters want to push against screen policies?
So just to say to start with this is not the reason etra for our thanking, for why we need to do net zero. I recognize it as being important in its own right, but politically, I said at the time when Rushie selected this rowback that this was going to be the worst mistake of his premiership.
Now why is that the case.
It's because there are conservatives like me across the country who believed that being a conservative also meant that you believed in conservation and demonstrating how you were going to ensure the best in the country was preserved at the same time as managing change appropriately. And now throwing all that away, he's seen conservatives like myself. You know, I've now become independent. I resigned the Conservative whip. I've left the Conservative Party now.
Have walked away.
And that's been replicated hundreds of thousands of times, if not millions of times, by individuals across the country who've now thought, well, what does the Conservative Party stand for?
And is not what I stand for?
And having this sort of future facing vision of where the country's going rather than looking backwards and trying to maintain the past, I think for me has been disastrous. We've seen that in the local elections, not just obviously, and everyone focused on Reform and it's a fault of the media, not yourself, but obviously why was Nigel Frage and Richard Tice ever given a platform on Question Time when effectively Reform UK is a private company, not a
political party. And they've only won two council seats at the local elections. The Greens actually gained one hundred and fifty seats, one hundred and fifty six seats, sixty seven percent increase, the largest increase of any political party. And so actually we've seen a coalition now of those parties that are looking to promote environment and climate succeed and
also in the mayoralties as well. The one Conservative that won was Ben Houchin, who proudly and published a net zero strategy for tea side that set out and I would encourage anyone to read that strategy is a great document that net zero is not about what we have to lose, but what we have to gain, and framing net zero is that opportunity was what the net zero.
Review was about.
Yes, obviously absolutely vital that we tackle the climate crisis, but this is a moment in time that won't come again.
We're in a net zero race.
You know, if the United States has taken forward the Inflation Reduction Act, the UK will fall further behind having been a climate leader if we do not continue to take action. And what we've seen with the Energy Secretary Flerkatino is to sort of rest on the laurels and say, well, you know, if the carbonized by fifty percent China is so bigre only one percent, that sort of narrative that defeat this narrative that suggests that the UK can't be an example for the rest of the world to follow.
And for myself, you know, it's absolutely critical that we all work together, cross party, put together this local Climate Pledge. We've got about a one hundred council leaders to sign ahead of the local elections, including Andy Burnham, including Tracy Braben, to commit to working together. Because I know it's difficult sometimes everyone has their own political allegiances, but carbon DIYX said knows no political parties or no country borders, so
we just have to work together. And this is where this politicization of net zero has been so tragic, and it will cost the Conservatives even more votes at the next general election. It's probably too late now to change the course that Richie Senaka set himself, but people historians will look back at this moment and recognize this was the moment that the Conservative Party lost the country because it no longer spoke to the country about what its future was going.
To look like.
Well, the next general election could be happening in months time if you believe some or before the end of the year. Now you were a member of Parliament for other Conservatives till January you've quit. Would it be fair to say that, given your context for where the Conservatives stand on climate today, that if people believe in climate change, they shouldn't vote for the Conservatives.
I think that's right.
It's difficult to say that because there's lots of colleagues who are friends. I've worked a large part of my career for the Conservative Party. But in its current state, the Conservative Party is endangering people's lives people's jobs, the opportunities for communities to grow further by taking a negative approach and rowing back on the energy transition.
And we can see that recent.
Report published by UK SIFTS demonstrated the sixty three percent of companies are seeking potentially to relocate jobs in investment elsewhere. And I wanted that investment to come to the UK, to demonstrate that this is an opportunity that will only come once in a generation. But what I'm not going to do is say to anyone that this is the
particular party you know you should vote for. I mean, Keir Starmer has these sort of mission based approaches times very closely to my own Mission zero report, that long term certainty and clarity you can have by having stable policy frameworks. But I would say to anyone who's thinking about you know how to cast their votes. You know, look at the candidates sort of record locally, look at
obviously the cup of the seat. You will have this moment in time, and it's so important I think personally, it's to look at if the UK is going to meet it's national determined contribution sixty eight percent emissions reduction, whoever forms the government will be the stewards of that NDC. If the UK fails to meet that NDC, it's one of the most ambitious obviously globally. Then what's to say any other country will want to meet their own national
determined contributions they promises they made to the UN. So for me, this is not just about thinking about the political party that's going to form a government. This is actually about picking a government that's going to be the stewards of a really important policy framework that then the rest of the will be watching and waiting to see whether we succeed.
So, if the polls are to be believed, Labor is likely to come into power here in the UK, and especially on climate Given how the Conservatives are playing the cards, it should all be a cakewalk for Labor. Do come up with a plan that already exists that the Climate Rae Committee has developed, back it and make it work. But the opposite seems to be happening. They are backtracking on their own previous commitments made in the opposition. But
climate action is still popular with voters. So why is it that both the major parties in the UK are acting this way?
I remember Tony Blair once said that Labour's best when it's boldest, and it's the case if you look at Sidi Khan's commitment to maintaining the expansion of ulets that he set himself a course. He put a lot of political capital on the line and he's stuck with it, knowing that there was this one moment in time when
this by election happened in for the UK. For those who are familiar the Oxbridge by election, Boris Johnson resigned his seat behame available, the Conservatives held onto it by a whisker. If it was went four hundred and twenty five votes
the other way, we wouldn't have been having this conversation. Actually, my resignation from Parliament was sparked also partly by trying to course correct, to say, well, you know, it calls one election, calls another by election, and then he lost that to labor.
For listeners who don't live in the UK, here's a little bit of background on that pivotal Uxbridge election and the role climate policies played. As Chris said, the election was set off by former Prime Minister Boris Johnson resigning from Parliament last June. Steve Tucker, the Conservative Party candidate vying for Boris's old seat in Uxbridge, ran a campaign that was heavily critical of one of London Mayor Sadi
Khan's key environmental policies. Ules or the Ultra Low Emission Zone scheme requires owners of cars that don't meet certain emission standards to pay a hefty fee for its use. It was introduced by Boris Johnson when he was Mayor of London back in twenty fifteen. At that time it only applied to central London, but under Sadi Khan its scope was expanded. Over the years, the zone has cut air pollution and raised millions of pounds for the city
from the fees. Ducker for the Conservatives argued it put a too heavy burden on regular commuters. In the end, the Conservatives narrowly held onto the seat and the party thought doubling down on anti green policies could be a winning strategy in local elections around the country. That backfired. U Les remains in place and Chris says it's in fact exactly the sort of bold policy we need for the climate fight.
The challenge is is how to maintain that sense of boldness, that sense of purpose, because there will always be a reaction to every action taken, there will always be vested interests. The role of politics and leadership is to demonstrate that you're going to stay the course. You're going to set out a vision and you're going to take people with you. And the narrative focus that you need is almost like
polishing a pebble. It doesn't happen overnight. You know, you need to work and crafted it, come back and address faults and mistakes along the line, knowing that those are going to be made. And I think that both political parties are guilty of having that lack of purpose and boldness. I wouldn't say that's the case with their millibant. He is absolutely committed and demonstrating. But we're in a new
age now where social media creates these funnel mechanisms. GB News is not the rest of the country and they we shouldn't cow taw to their anti climate messaging because the rest of the country, a silent majority, wants climate action.
See they are concerned about what that looks like and who will pay for it, and it's an important question about understanding how to bring investment in, which is why I'm so passionate about trying to promote the UK because it's not necessarily the tax pays paying for all of this, but nevertheless set out a vision and stay the.
Course coming up. Chris responds to the current energy secretaries claim that net zero has become a crushing leviathan of central planning. And by the way, if you're enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Now, the UK Government and the UK political parties will do their thing, but the UK Government isn't just the political parties, it's also the machinery behind it. And there has been a lot of
green hushing going on. So the UK Government is going ahead with some of the policies that it's set out. It doesn't want to advertise them as the Conservative Party. But let's come to the specifics. A key thing you did in your time in office is the net zero Review. This is a report that was commissioned by Liz Truss, who was Prime Minister for less than two months in late twenty twenty two. You spent more time being on the road for the review than she spent in Number ten.
By the time the document was published, she Sunak was the Prime Minister, and you said you had one hundred and twenty five policy recommendations in the final report, most of which you say were accepted by the government. Can you give a specific examples of the ones that you are most proud of that the government has deployed.
Yeah, so, yeah, you're absolutely right.
There is the sort of green hushing going on because of the departments and the individual civil servants to work in them are truly committed to the transition. And I had some of those fantastic individuals working on the net zero review, and I think the UK is really blessed in that regard in having that sort of policy expertise, which why I still say we're a climate leader when we look at the civil society movements, our universities, our
departments that are working on the transition. In terms of some of those policy recommendations, the government accepter have about a hundred. There are some that I wish they would still accept that it hasn't gone across the line. A net zero investment roadmap that would identify all these opportunities and set out what needs to be done effectively, an
Office for net Zero, Office for Net zero Delivery. The Australia is doing to bring all these departments together, but of the ones that they did accept the recommendations, I think some of the ones I'm proudest of all, including net zero duty for off GEM, I think is absolutely vital if we're going to move beyond what sort of consumer price duty, the off GYM had to actually identify where is a coordinating function in the market going to take place. One that I was really sort of happy
that it was accepted. I wouldn't sure it was going to be accepted was the rebalancing of gas electricity prices that the government's now committed to taking this forwards just fundamentally if we don't get this right, and we should have done it sooner. Actually while the gas price was still sort of artificially sort of high, we're not going to be able to embed the transition at a household level with the heat pumps and other forms of electricity like solar panels, So that for me was a real win.
A little more on two of those policies. Off GEM is the UK's office for gas and electricity markets, and as of last June, of GEM was legally required to focus on reaching net zero emissions, not just on protecting the interests of existing and future gas and electricity cans. The other policy Chris mentioned, rebalancing gas and electricity prices, involves moving a green levee applied to electricity that makes it more expensive. That levee is used to fund subsidies
for renewables and thus makes the grid cleaner. But currently the UK uses a lot of gas for heating homes. In the future, ideally people will use electricity to power heat pumps, thus making electricity cheaper is key. The review came out in January twenty twenty three. You quit in January twenty twenty four, and of course we talked through the change in stance for the Conservative Party in that period. How has that affected the implementation of the recommendations that
were accepted by the government. Has there been backtracking on the very things that they agreed on doing.
The review covered everything, so it wasn't just around looking at the sort of focus of supply so I, but also on the demand side, and that's where I think there's been a real now challenge which is going to imp act on our climate targets, which is we needed to maintain a focus both on retrofit, on setting the private rented sector a focus on how to commit to minimum energy efficiency standards.
That's been scrapped.
You know, there was a need to maintain focus on a boiler mandate as the equivalent of the TV mandate, which would say no new gas boilers sold from X state. I actually wanted to sort of push it further forward to twenty thirty three instead of twenty thirty five. Year that's been canned, and without that there is no certainty, there is no sense that the industry will have to move towards this, and so that in itself has been
entirely retrograde. Will probably cost households up to eight pounds over the next ten years in additional costs on oil and gas bills. So that was deeply regrettable. But then on the renewable side, you know, they've done a huge amount of positive things. They've got the Solar Task Force is a recommendation that zero review that's coming forwards. I am worried about potentially them sort of regrading agricultural land
that will stop solar farms being expanded. I mean, that's a political choice that will probably feature in the general election, and that really then sets the sort of binary vision now between is net zero going to happen. You're going to vote for parties that believe in that zero. You're going to vote for party that no longer wants net zero to be delivered.
So as part of the review, you were on the road, you did a lot of listening from businesses but also people. In April, Energy Secretary Claire Cortino give a speech warning against a future where I quote a net zero leviathan of central planning crushes our brilliant enterprise economy. Was that what business has told you?
No, it couldn't be further from the truth.
It's probably I talked about false narratives, but this is a corrupt narrative also, you know, it's simply the framing is polar opposite to what I've seen, which is, if you go around the country, there are businesses and industry raring to go. They know that their supply chains internationally are going to be effective by what is happening, and they don't want to be crushed by a net zero
race where the countries are taking advantage. They want to be able to sell knowing that they're producing low carbon products, that they are reaching low carbon sort of targets that are being required, not by government, but by other industries and companies globally. But they need direction, They need certainty, clarity, consistency, continuity.
The four seas of policy.
Direction that identified and net zero is part of a mission that would set out goals that then businesses can row in behind. They need leadership, and that leadership is lacking. Who is this leviathan? These are straw men that are being created by the government. At the moment, they simply don't exist. All that exists are individuals seeking to make a living, companies seeking to create growth, communities, seeking to regenerate post industrial landscapes. And they need support. And that
is not a net zero leviason. That is a net zero opportunity that we should be seizing.
Well, let's take all of what's happening in politics and let me paint a bear case for UK's future in a net zero world, and I would hope you would respond by making a bullcase. So, for the fifteen year period, sixteen year period that the Climate Change Act has existed, science, politics, and eventually economics all aligned with a net zero target. Now science and economics are still pretty aligned, but the politics is pushing away. There's been Brexit there's been a
cost of living crisis. The National Health Service is in distress. Putting it mildly, there is just a lot of near term harm that's happened to the UK economy because of political choices or because of external impacts such as the pandemic. All of that has to be dealt with. Interest rates aren't falling anytime soon. The UK doesn't have a climate champion. You go to the US, there's the Inflation Reduction Act as a climate champion. Maybe, but there's Tesla. You go
to China, there's bid. You go to Denmark, there's austed. Each country that cares and wants to do anything on climate has a champion. The UK has the Climate Change Committee. Maybe I don't know what the champion is. There's no industry that I can pick. There's no company that I can pick that is going to be UK's calling card for the future. So it doesn't look very good. What do you think is the bull case for why the UK's future is bright in an zero world?
So when I became a member of Parliament fourteen years ago in twenty ten, fossil fuels made up seventy four percent of hart grid renewals was made up two percent.
I stepped down in January.
Renewables then made up forty percent of rkgrid, fossil fuels thirty three percent. There is a transformation that is underway that is one of the most dramatic in the world.
And I know it's tempting to look across the oceans and other countries and what they're doing, but when I've traveled abroad, every other country also wants to talk about the successes the UK has seen in its policy frameworks, not least the contract for different to other countries, you know, want to listen and learn, and they sit up when the UK speaks, because the UK is still regarded as the prime example of how to deliver a successful transition
that also delivers economic growth. As I mentioned, we've decarbonized our economy by fifty one percent. We've also grown in that period at the same time by eighty two percent.
We are a.
Paragon that regardless of recent sort of political headwinds, this is ultimately flotsam and jets and sort of floating on a sea that I think ultimately remains a course and a current towards decarbonization that's here to stay. And if we look at those opportunities within a net zero economy. Research report show that the net zero economy grew by nine percent in the last year alone. It's helping now to hold up an economy that is fragile. But the more than an economy you can move into a net
zero economy, the stronger that economy becomes. The Net Zero Review set out a opportunity for inward investment to trillion pounds four hundred and eighty thousand new additional jobs by twenty thirty five if we want it. And we're seeing the signs now of an industrial strategy in the US
that is working. For every dollar of public investment, it's returning a co private investment of five point four to seven dollars and we've seen that also in the UK, not necessarily from the UK government, but policy frameworks such as the Bristol City Leap taken forward by.
The Bristol Mayor Marvin Reeese.
Seven million pounds worth of public investment has unlocked to start with four hundred and thirty five million pounds of private investment from Moresco.
Up to a billion pounds will follow.
The economics are moving in the direction of change, and change is moving regardless of the government in the direction of net zero. The case for net zero is that it's here to stay. It is happening. It just depends on how slow or how fast we want this transition to happen.
And now you're taking this message abroad. In March of this year, you launched Better Earth. It's an initiative that's supposed to help countries achieve net zero. And you say it's not a consultancy, it's not McKinsey, it's not a think tank, it's not the Tony Blair Institute. The idea, if I understand it, is that you assemble teams to build and get these net zero projects off the ground around the world. Could you talk us through some specific projects you're working on.
Yeah.
Sure.
So when I stepped down, I sort of said I wanted to commit, as I said Earliert the beginning of the podcast, that I wanted to commit the rest of
my career's net zero. Obviously, I want to help focus on what's going on in the UK, but if we're going to meet our missions reduction targets of fifty by twenty thirty, I also want to try to help other countries as well, and I've been sort of cooped up in Westminster the last fourteen years, and it's having the opportunity to spread my wings and think how to help
other countries has been a passion of mine. So what I'd quite like to do with Better Earth is to almost take a net zero review process forwards to help other countries, partly with their national determined contributions that have to be prepared ahead of Brazil, but even beyond that, to try and help them think through strategies that are going to create that sense of ownership and take people
and industries in business with them. Because the transition isn't secured in other countries, there is an opposition.
So what I'm quite keen to.
Do with Better Earth is to try to work with governments and also some of those sectors in helping to prepare documentation that could be used with that.
Also, we've got.
Potential sort of engineering teams that would focus on some of them, maybe you can call it low hanging through capping oil wells, reducing sort of methane emissions, trying to look at what can be done ahead of twenty thirty it was only sixty something months away. And also we've got the potentially the investment that would come in so and asking governments for any money. So I see this as a wrap around approach to just get on with
the job. It's absolutely vice. So obviously we meet sort of our climate finance commitments that are a COP twenty nine, whether that's the Loss and Damage Fund, whether that's new quantified collective finance goal. But we can't wait for COPS to swing into action. So what I want to try to do with better is is to get in on the ground and make things happen now.
But for good or bad, your credibility when you go abroad and when you try and get these projects off the ground will be tied to the UK, will be tied to your achievements, and government will be tied to your party's achievement in government. Whereas Johnson has joined Better Earth, you know he quit as an MP in the Conservative Party. So why do you think you will be able to convince other countries to do the stuff that they need to do on net zero when you couldn't convince your own party.
It's a very good question.
I mean, I think what I did manage to do is convince business and industrial communities to maintain their focus and that's what they've done. I think with the net zero review, time and time again have people coming up to me and saying, this is fantastic. We've been given this opportunity to have a voice, and that voice wasn't really heard previously. And also the review allowed for every sector to sort of see in itself what needed to
be happening across the piece. So I think there is a narrative moment that I hope I can take to other countries. And I would say, you know, with Boris Johnson joining as co chair, obviously he has been committed to net zero. He took forwards the COP twenty six, the Glasgow Climate Pact. He's recently come back from an event with the COP twenty eight president, and he's committed to trying to work internationally on decarbonization and taking climate action.
And we have to work with everyone. And that's the challenge is that, yes, we've we've got to put our sort of political allegiances, sometimes our own individual personal views aside. So I said Carbon dox side knows no borders, it
knows no political parties. One of the challenges we are facing this year internationally is this is obviously the year of elections and more elections being held internationally than I think any other of the year, and obviously particularly with America if Donald Trump comes back, we've got to continue to be able to make the center right case, even if you are not personally center right for delivering on
the transition, but it won't happen otherwise. So for me, bringing anyone on board who's going to be able to try to make that case, working with any country that is going to need help is vital. And I think sometimes personally that can seem strange, that you might be decisions might be taken, but that's what we need to do, and I think anyone working in climate recognizes we have to work with everyone who's willing to be able to be engaged with and that's.
What I hope two intend to do.
Thank you, Chris, Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode, please take a moment to rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with someone who loves political defections. You can get in
touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Mithy Lira, Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to Kirra Byndrim Alisha Clanton, and to climate impacts Stephen Murphy and Socia kelders I am Akshatrati back so