Welcome to zero I am Akshatrati this week a different kind of solar power. Nuclear fusion is a reality. It's how the Sun produces energy, but trying to replicate what the Sun does here on Earth has been, to put it mildly, a challenge for a long time. Nuclear fusion as an energy source has been in the realm of science fiction. One can imagine powering civilizations that move across planets and maybe even galaxies, but bringing it back down
to Earth to our current climate predicament. Fusion power could also provide emissions free, unlimited energy, and wouldn't that be nice. Fortunately, after more than fifty years of trying, there is some success to report on. In fleeting experiments, scientists have been able to generate more energy from fusion reactions than the energy put into making them happen in the first place. Now, someone just needs to do it at scale, and there
are dozens of startups trying to do just that. One of the most promising ones is CFS, or Commonwealth Fusion Systems. The startup CEO Bob Mumguard began his work at MIT, where he worked with researchers studying plasma science. They designed a reactor called Spark, which could become the first large scale reactor that generates more energy than it consumes. CFS has now raised more than two billion dollars in venture capital.
That's more than any other fusion startup. Clearly, investors are betting that if CFS succeeds, there's a big return to be made. How exactly well to find out, I caught up with Bob at the break Through Energy Summit in June. We neded out about the science behind fusion, how CFS's bagel shaped reactor or Tokomac works, and how the company is going to put the billions of dollars it's raised to work. Bob, Welcome to the show.
Great to be here.
Even those who don't know anything about nuclear fusion benefit from it every day. The Sun is the largest nuclear fusion reactor. If we could replicate that process on Earth, we could have unlimited energy. And we really started thinking about this about one hundred years ago. So let's just start with the history of nuclear fusion.
Yeah, so you know, basically humans have looked at the Sun since humans existed, and they've wondered, well, how does that work? And you had before we even understood that the nucleus was a thing. Right before we had any of that, people thought, well, the sun must be burning wood, right, and you can like calculate it up and say, well, if the sun we figured out in like the fifteen hundreds how heavy the sun was. He said, okay, if the sun was burning wood, it would have burned out
in like five thousand years. And so that was actually like a big deal to everyone because scientists were saying, well, things can't be old. They must all be like five thousand years old. The sun would have burnt out, and so there's a big question, well, how's the sun still around? Like once you like found out that things were old, like the Earth was old, and fossils and dinosaurs and all that stuff, you're like, well, what was powering the stars?
And it wasn't until about nineteen twenty that you had a combination of things. You had one we found how atoms were built. They had a nucleus, and then you also had equals mc squared.
And you have famous Einsteining question, yeah, which said energy and mass can be converted into.
Each other exactly. And then guy Arthur Eddington, who we're in the UK right now, a UK guy astronomer. He realized that the helium which they just discovered in the sun, only in the sun, was kind of like four hydrogens but slightly light. Yeah, And he postulated, out of nothing, just a pure inference, the inside the stars, they must be taking hydrogen, combining it to helium and converting mass
to energy. And if they did that, that that would explain how the stars could be old, and not only that, but billions of years old.
It's not a bad hypothesis. If you're starting to build a periodic table. The first element is hydrogen, the second element is helium. Hydrogen is only one unit of mass. Helium is four units of mass. And you go, why is there that big a jump?
And yep, and you can look at it and you can calculate it up. And he does it in a seven page paper, publishes it, and sure enough he got it like spot on. And then the paper even says, if we could do this on Earth, we would be able to solve a whole bunch of problems.
And so over the next one hundred years, theory is then converted into some amount of practical work, and what we now understand is to be able to replicate what the sun does on Earth. We need to do it a little bit differently. The temperature of this hydrogen mass has to be ten times more than what happens at the core of the Sun. So the core of the Sun is fifteen million degrees celsius. You need something like one hundred or a hundred and fifty million degrees celsius
for it to happen on Earth. And of course at that temperature, you have to do something to hold it all together. Because you heat stuff, it evaporates, it becomes stuff that you can't hold, So you have to hold it all together. And only then can you fuse these
atoms and these nucleus going from hydrogen into helium. All of that is going to take a lot of energy, and there have been a bunch of reactions that have been done, but only one facility on planet Earth has ever got more energy out of that system than put in it. So, before we understand what your company does, could you just talk us through the main ways in which we can make that reaction happen.
Right, So, you know, we just jumped over here about one hundred years of work where we realized, oh okay, that's the reaction, and we confirmed it on Earth that that's the reaction. In the thirties and then the fifties we calculated, oh, if you want to do it on Earth, you would need to hold it all together. You need
to insulate it very very well. And then we built machines in the fifties and sixties or guess and try, and it turns out that that was way way harder than we thought it was going to be, and so we had to make big computers and we realized, well, there's maybe these few classes of ways you could hold it all together. So if you needed to reach the right conditions, which really are as you said, hot like one hundred million degrees, dense enough of it and insulate it so doesn't cool off too fast.
Or doesn't burn everything around it too quickly.
Yeah, and really, you know, if it got too hot and touch stuff around it, that would just cool it off. And so it's it's a double edged piece that if you needed to get those conditions, there was like a few physical forces that you could use to do it. And it turns out that you can sort of roughly categorize all different ways to reach those conditions into first order two branches, and there's some stuff in between but largely two poles, and one of them is you could
use magnetic fields. So you can basically build a bottle using magnetic fields and be different shapes and.
The advantages you don't touch it.
Yeah, So the Menet field's basically I mean it's almost like a force field, not not quite, but like you basically build a magnetic bottle, so no materials touch it. And then the other way to do it is just make it happen so fast that it can't get out of its own way. So you make a pulse that happens so fast that before the fuel, the plasma, the hydrogen, before it moves out of its own way, reacts.
It's like taking something and firing bullets at it from three hundred and sixty degrees simultaneously. The thing in the middle just gets compressed.
Yeah, exactly, and it compresses and it compresses, and then fusion happens because you reach the conditions, and then the fusion converts the fuel into two energy. And all that happens so fast that you don't need to insulate it. It just happens in a splink of nine.
So CFS Commonwealth Fusion Systems, your company does magnetic fusion. But the thing that has achieved more energy out than in is inertial fusion. Can you talk us through the facility that has done it multiple times and the only facility on planet.
Ar Right, So all of these fusion ways to do it all have at the heart of it the same basic physics, right, and it actually goes that physics from Eddington, the nuclear physics of how the reaction happens, and then the plasma physics of how do you have these very hot states of matter if you take something and you melt solid to liquid and evaporate solid to gas. Well, if you keep putting energy and you get gas to plasma and that's the state that the stars and everyone.
So that means that the underlying science of everything is those fields nuclear physics and plasma physics, and they're just different ways to apply that science. And the facility Niff that has reached more power out than in the way it did it is it took a tiny, tiny pellet that had the fuel in it, that was in a gas and.
It used how about.
Two millimeters so like the top of a pin rhythm. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, it took a tiny pellet and then it used one hundred and ninety two of the world's largest lasers and fired those lasers with the precision of like one part and a billion timing onto this pellet and compressed the pellet like a factor of several hundred.
So tiny pellet, it's two millimeter pellet becomes pointed time.
Yes, it might even be more. I can't remember that exactly. It's all in the papers. They publish it all in peer review, which is exactly what should be done. And when that happens, it compresses, it heats up, the density goes up, the temperature goes up, and the whole thing has a bang of fusion and all happens super fast.
Right, this is micro.
And so that reaches the right conditions. When you calculate how much energy the lasers put into the pellet, and you then measure the amount of fusion power the energy that came out, and you divide the two, you get the game. Right.
And that happened almost exactly one hundred years since Arthur Eddington produced his paper. And so after one hundred years, we've been able to show this can be done on Earth. But all we've been able to show is we could make enough energy to heat a cup of coffee. Right now, Your company wants to do this so that it can produce power that can be put on the grid, and you want to do it before twenty thirty.
Right, And so there's a couple of things that are important there. One, NIFF was never designed to be a power plant. It was designed to show the science worked. And so in that way, you know how much energy it made. Its immaterial right, it reached the right conditions, things went according to plan, and that was the big achievement,
Like science works. Right now, the step is how do you turn that science that's been validated that we've you know, in those one hundred years, and we came like somewhere around like fifteen orders of magnitude and performance faster than More's law for most of those one hundred years. So that's huge deal. And now we're at this cusp where you can start to think about how to make that practical. So how to make it so it's not just you know, a few times power out over in or energy out
over in, but like more than that ten. How to make it so it's not just mega jewels but gigagules, and how to make it continuous. So the plant is making megawatts. You know, those are the types of engineering type challenges, and what we're trying to do at Commonwealth Fusion Systems is to demonstrate in a facility that you can handle those challenges.
And you're doing it through magnetic fusion. So talk us through exactly what that is and what is CFS's approach.
So in magnetic fusion, you build this magnetic bottle using very high strength magnets and that can hold plasma. Plasma is charged, so it responds to magnetic fields and in fact, that's like why the northern lights are so pretty. And it turns out if you build the right shape of magnetic bottle, the simplest shape is a shape that's kind
of like a doughnuts, like a bagel. You can use strong magnets and you can have a bagel of plasma, and the performance of that plasma, how hot and how dense and how insulated it is, that will go like the menetic field to the about fourth power. So it's very strongly dependent on the strength of the magnet. And we know this because we've built about one hundred and fifty of these machines that are these donut shape machines.
And they have a name called a Tokmac from a Soviet discovery where they really figured out these machines in the sixties and then everywhere around the world and the seventies they were.
Built and if Americans had done it before, maybe they would have been called bagel reactors.
Yeah, who knows, But you know, at the time, it was actually a cool story of you know, we were in the Cold War and fusion was something that everyone had agreed they were all going to work on together because it's so hard, right, We've been at it at that time, like forty years and it's kind of like, well, we're going and slower then we want, let's all work together. So fusion's always been declassified, it's always been open. And the Soviets made this machine they called it a Tokamac,
and it suddenly was ten million degrees. They measured it was ten million degrees and the world was like, no way, right, So they sent the scientists from the UK with the laser which had just been invented, over to measure the temperature of this new fangled device in the Soviet Union.
Right, clearly, like this is temperature we've never experienced. We don't even know what a thermometer would look like to actually measure it, and so you had to invent a thermometer as well.
Yeah, and they go and they measure it in like sure enough, it's ten million degrees. And that threshold of ten million degrees is still today like an important threshold in judging where fusion ideas are. It was such a big leap at the time, and they published it in peer view journals and like everyone's like, oh, awesome, big breakthrough. Right, we have these tokemax they can get hot, and the
world like went and built a bunch of tokemacs. And what we saw then in the seventies and eighties is a bunch of to camacs that got higher and higher performance. But because of this magnetic field, they sort of ran out of headroom and how to make them higher performance because they ran into limits on the magnets. And the other way around that is to build them bigger.
Right, And this is where the biggest nuclear fusion experiment in the world comes into picture. It's called Eater is being built in France. It's already spent twenty billion euros. It's still not done right.
And so eventually it gets so big that you know, you learn a lot and you say, well, I only have access to a certain magnetic field. Because of the magnet technology, I can solve the science equations. And it says, I gotta build it big, like office block big, and so that's gonna be expensive. Let's get all the world's governments together. You remember, we've been doing fusion out in the open. Will make it a big science project like CERN. And you go out and you try to build this
giant fusion machine. And it turns out that took longer than anyone thought and was more expensive than anyone thought. Some of it's technical, a lot of it is organizational. You can imagine a un of science trying situation right, and so they're they're part way through building it and it's continually delayed's.
And Bob the PhD student thinks, you know what, guys, this is too much. We should just make a small version of this and make this reaction actually work. Is that how CFS was born, Not not quite, but the parts of that that are accurate was that we had known that if you had better magnets, you could make it much smaller.
And that was an idea that was not a controversial idea at all that that was an idea that people at MIT had worked on and people in Germany and the UK, and so we knew that was a possibility, but we didn't have the technology. And what changed is we in the about twenty ten timeframes suddenly had a material science, a superconductor that was practical that you could begin to think about, Oh, I could build really strong magnets, a new generation, a new class of very strong magnets.
And if I did that, I know I can make those fusion machines, those tokemacs much smaller. And that's what really underpinned the effort that became CFS, and still is. The fundamental technology inside CFS and.
The magnets that enabled you to be able to make this tookmac smaller are called high temperature superconducting magnets. Now those are lots of words, but superconducting is kind of self explanatory, which is that conductors are things that carry electricity. When they carry electricity, they typically lose some of that in the form of heat because there is resistance as
the electrons are flowing through that cable. Then you can make it a superconductor by trying to reduce that resistance to zero, and that was shown to happen by reducing the temperature to almost zero. But that's not great because getting to almost zero temperature takes a lot of energy, so if you want more energy out, that's a bad idea. And so they came up with high temperature superconductors, which are not absolute zero, but they're still pretty cold.
Right. Oh yeah, So in the eighties they discovered and this is one of these things that was completely discovered experimentally, I mean, it was not predicted at all, like the opposite of edding t.
Wait, so why is that the case? Because you know there's a conductor and it has resistance, why can't you theorize that there could be zero resistance at some point?
Well, it turns out that you need in that conductor to be a very specific type of material that has some quantum mechanical effects, so effects that are not classical that would make it so that the resistance is zero, and it is identically zero. It's not like approaching zero. It drops from finite and actually pretty high to zero.
So it goes from sort of Newtonian science and then breaks it and goes to Einsteinian science and says yeah, this is just a new way of actually running this material.
And when they discovered that, a guy named Henrik Ohms discovered that and he won the Nobel Prize for that, And so that's exactly what happens that you switch to quantum mechanics because of the materials and it's cold, and all of a sudden it's a super nuctor the limitation that needs to be very cold, and like those are like a few degrees calvin, a few degrees above zero.
But what they discovered in the eighties is there was a new class of material material that like people didn't even think would be a superconductor, and it was a superductor at like eighty kelvin and so that's a huge deal and they called that high temperature and they won the Nobel Prize the year after they discovered that.
Right, that's adye kelvin is about minus two hundred degrees celsius.
Think kelvin is about what you can do with liquid nitrogen. So that's like high school physics demonstration classroom.
You take rose, you dip it in liquid nitrogen, and then you pull it out and then you smash it and it.
Breaks into pieces exactly dippin' dots.
And so high temperature superconductors are discovered in the eighties. You only started building your company in the twenty twenties, really.
Right, And so it's one thing to discover in material, it's some other thing to make that material practical. And so really what the high temperature superneutor folks were doing is they were figuring out, well, how do I even grow this material? How do I make it? How do I make it into wires? Right, it's a supernutor so you need wires. And it wasn't really until about twenty ten that you could even see wires out of this material of any appreciable length and anything that approached the
quality you would need to make practical things. And so it wasn't until we saw that that we realized, oh, now we can build a magnet technology on that material. Continue to evolve them material as well, and that really was at the period where we started to lay the groundwork for CFS.
And what is this material?
This material it's called rare earth barium copper oxide, But what it really is is it's a crystal and it's a ceramic that's grown. It's like grown like silicon. Computer chips, and most of it's copper, barium and oxygen has a dope into a tiny tiny amount of a rare earth yttrium usually, And it turns out when you grow that crystal and you grow it really well, like nearly perfect, it will be a supergductor when it's cold. But importantly for us, it's not just that it's higher temperature. In fact,
that's actually not that important. The thing that's important is that all the other superconductors they had this limitation that when they were in a menetic field, the menetic field would break the quantum mechanical effect, and so they would stop being a superinductor if they were in a menetic field, particularly if the menic field got too high. And so here you're trying to build an electromagnet, a wire that's making magnetic field that limits itself by making magnetic field,
and that means that you have a hard limit. You can basically build magnets that were like tennish tesla.
So a material that breaks itself.
Yeah, so not a great thing if you want to like build the highest magnet fields in the world. But the high tempered supernuctors also had a feature that they were high magnetic field super nuctors. They didn't have this limit. The quantum mechanics was different, and once you realize that, you could immediately say, oh, if I had a bunch of this material and then I figured out a whole bunch of other technology, I could build really really strong magnets.
And so on the basis of that, CFS is now among only a handful of climate tech startups that have raised billions of dollars in money. That's a lot of money for a climate tech startup, not for Microsoft, but for a climate tech startup, a lot of money. Few startups even need that much money to reach commercial viability.
So before we come to how you're planning to spend it all, tell us how did you convince private investors who back ideas that actually become commercial reality and want return on these ideas, not just scientific work, to give you all that money.
Right, So at this point you have the fact that fusion. We always knew it was a big deal. Right, if you had a fusion power plants, that could potentially be a huge business, That could be a business, you know scale of the oil industry, right, huge business. We knew that it was scientifically possible. Not you're done, but like scientifically possible. And we knew that if you could build very strong magnets, you can make it much smaller and it would put it in the realm of commercially doable.
And you basically had like a fifty billion dollar statement of conviction by the governments that the TOKENMAC and eater was going to work if you could build it. And now all of a sudden, you have this material that hey, all that and puts it within the reach of something that would look kind of like a SpaceX, right in terms of scale and engineering, et cetera.
Right, So if Eater is NASA CFS's SpaceX.
Yeah, you know, certainly people had boiled it down to that. I wouldn'tess to say that, but other people have, and so all that came together. It's at INT you know, it's all peer reviewed, and it makes a really you know, pretty simple roadmap. Go build that magnet technology, show it works. Go build a TOKENAC that makes a lot of energy, more power out than in using the science we already know, and then go build power plants based on that machine.
And that's a digestible, falsifiable, peer reviewable path. And that's the path that we've been on since before the company was a company. That's been a path that we've been on for about ten years now. And through that, you know you look and say, okay, each execution stage, how is it going? Is the team actually doing what said
is going to do? And by twenty and twenty one, we had taken two hundred million dollars, we had spun out a mit, we built a team, and we had demonstrated that magnet technology and shown that it could scale, and we designed the fusion tokemac Spark and peer reviewed it, done the engineering, found the site, figured out how we were going to go build that machine. And that's when we're raised the one point eight billion dollars to go and build it. And now we're we're about halfway through building.
That and what does it look like building it?
Well, it's big, like it's smaller than either, but you know, you're still talking about having to build a factory to make those magnets. So we have a factory that runs three shifts, that is full of hundreds of people, that makes supermufic magnets that simply did not exist before, based on materials that won the Nobel Prize multiple times. You do that, you have to find a place where they're like,
let you do that. And so we own a fifty acres outside of Boston on an old military base, and on that site with the factory, we have a fusion prototype power plant and you know, it's buildings that are made to hold fusion machines, and in there is we haven't yet started assembling. We're getting ready to start assembol of pokemac which we've built one hundred and fifty before, but never one that was this powerful, and never one
that had these magnets in it. And so it looks like a big construction project, that looks like a big engineering project, that looks like a manufacturing project. And I think that looks like actually what climate tech is going to look like for just about every climate tech innovation at scale.
And so you're waiting to learn this joke, which is nuclear fusion, great idea, it's the future, it's always in the future, and you're going to go, ha ha, we made it happen.
We're going to go and say, look, show up at this place, push a button and make a whole bunch of heat from a reaction that built all the atoms on Earth. That powers the sun, and do that with a team that built it all quickly out of sight in a factory with blueprints, and we think that's fair.
You're also going to not just make fusion reaction. You are going to turn it into power at that facility, and you're going to do it before twenty thirty.
So that facility will make fusion reactions, it will make a bunch of heat, so we won't turn it into electricity. But if we had turned it into electricity, which means basically making that heat go into steam and turning a steam turbine, if we've done that with stuff that ever exists off the shelf, stuff, that facility would be able to have sold some electricity. But we didn't demonstrate those pieces.
But it took a mac reactor. This bagel shaped machine building will produce heat. Nobody has yet shown how to capture all that heat turn it into steam to generate power. So there's still one more step beyond the hardest step that still needs to be shown to work.
Right, that's right, But that step is fairly conventional. You know. That's a step that say a coal power plant does. It captures heat and turns it to steam and turns that steam turbine, and the electricity confusion in that way is not that dissimilar then other ways to boil water.
Well. Sure, but the whole point of a nuclear fusion reactor that you want to build is one that will continuously generate heat. A continuously heating unit needs to take that heat away. And so if you are not readying yourself to do that, regardless of whether you want to turn that heat into power or not, you're not going to run this reactor on a continuous basis.
Yeah, So the one in that we're building right now, we'll run it for short periods because it does get hot and you can't take the heat out at the rate that you generate it. It's basically too small to take the heat out. But we have then in parallel efforts that are like, well this is how you take the heat out, and those are fairly conventional.
And so when will we have a CFS blant that actually generates power.
That's the next piece in the milestone. So you know, what we are right now is to build a machine that does the really fusion specific pieces and does it in a way that's like that's a snapshot of how a plant would work.
And that will be ready and doing it when we think that'll.
Be ready in like twenty twenty seven. So right now we're about halfway through building it and sort of the end of twenty twenty four will be manufacturing the parts, and in twenty twenty five will be starting to assemble all the parts and the big pieces of equipment will be installed in the buildings, and in twenty six we'll start to turn on individual subsystems that support the fusion machine and eventually at twenty six and twenty seven the
fusion reactions and more power, more power out than in Q grade and one in twenty seven, and so that's a very fast timeline compared to what we've used to doing in infusion. Right, So you know, big effort, but you know the talent that is at CFS. That's the
type of challenge that they live for. And then after that, the next step is to do that same thing a little bit bigger, make more power, but very similar in its parameters, and then put that out a site that has the ability to turn that heat into steam to electricity and then sell the electricity. And that is our next machine, a machine we call.
ARC and how many more billions. Is that going to take.
That's going to take a similar amount to what we've already.
Raised, So about two billion dollars.
Yeah, I give it to it, you know, right.
And the aim to have the arc reactor generating power is by what date?
So we want to do that, so it's in the early twenty thirties. You know, a lot of that depends on when we start, which depends on things like, well, how confident are we in Spark? Do we wait to finish all of Spark? Do we get started a little early? You know? Do we wait to get more results out of it? You know, there's some sort of a start date that you have to figure out, and there's how long will it take to build? And that's one of the reasons that we're building Spark is we're getting how
long it takes? You know, what are the challenges? What a supply chain look like? How much does it cost the receipts in addition to the actual science of how it works.
After the break? Are there too many fusion startups? And if you've been enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple or now YouTube. It helps other listeners find the show. There are now fifty nuclear fusion startups by one count total, they've raised about six billion dollars, which means CFS alone has raised about a third of all that. Are there too many nuclear fusion startups?
Well, I think what you're seeing is you're seeing a growing ecosystem. So in those that count, many of those are are companies that aim to build power plants. Like you know, if you think what CFS is, we would consider CFS like a tier one integrator. You know, we're like a Ford, right, but Ford buys parts from people that like ac Delco that make parts that go into Ford, but also go into Chevy. And so we're starting to see now in fusion the emerging of those tier two suppliers.
And in the continuing the car analogy, you know, there's people that make high end cars that fit that market, pickups in Sedan's, and you see that in fusion as well. You see, okay, can you make a really small fusion machine, a fusee machine that just generates heat, A future machine that might be more speculative scientifically, so maybe it's a next generation one. And so while there's a lot when you actually break them down you say, are we out
of good ideas? No? Are we done building new future machines. I don't think we ever will be. But is it an ecosystem. Yes, you can start to see the emergence of an ecosystem and eventually, like in a world where there's a fusion industry, you know, that's a standalone industry, that's an important industry. It's an asset class and so you know my history of technology hat, it's like, no, this is this feels about right?
Yeah, I mean we put it on the climate timeline, and that raises a bunch of questions about whether if you build it by say twenty thirty five, will we be able to build one hundred of them by twenty fifty or thousand of them if we need right, because we want clean firm power and we want lots of it. But if you're thinking about it from a species perspective, from a planet that has intelligent beings perspective, you would want to give them nuclear fusion power. That would be
pretty useful, regardless of what problems they have. Having access to unlimited clean energy is very useful.
Right. If you think about like technology, and you know we're sitting here at a conference. It's about innovation and climate. The crazy thing about technology is that once you have it and know it, it takes on a life of its own, and it could scale way faster than we thought. I really doubt that when Henry Ford was building the Model T, which you know, cars existed before the Model T, I'm sure there was there was doubters like, oh, you
know that's going to grow at like twenty percent. I mean, the Model T production grew at one hundred percent year over year for ten years. Like if you did that in climate, in any of the climate technologies, not only do you solve climate in ten years, but like you basically like lead to an entirely different civilization. Right, And so that's the cool thing about technology and the idea that you could have a technology like fusion that basically uses an entirely new process in a machine that we
basically manufactured. That's like why it's an intellectually and wide open space. Very cool.
Thank you both, all right, thank you, thank you for listening to zero And now for the sound of the week. That's the sound from inside a fusion reactor, not at CFS, but at another nuclear fusion startup called Zapp Energy, which I visited two years ago and which is also racing to bring fusion power onto the grid. If you like this episode, please take a moment to rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with someone who loves science fiction.
You can get in touch at Zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is Mithy Lirau. Bloomberg's Head of podcast is Sage Bowman and head of Talk is Brendan nunan Ar. Theme music is composed by Wonderly. Thanks to break Through Energy for the space to record this episode. Special thanks also to Kira Bindram and Monique Mulima, i am Akshatrati back Soli