Escaping the Cycle: Healing from Toxic Relationships and Trauma Bonds with Ben Taylor

This is a really important episode if you are wondering if you're in a toxic relationship , if you are trying to understand what to do , or if you're frustrated with yourself because you can't seem to break the cycle , if you are in the place of wondering how do I do this ?

I definitely recommend checking out Ben's programs or you can head over to my website , emotionalabusecoachcom . If you go down and you see the emotional abuse breakthrough course , we will touch on a lot of the toxic behaviors and start to ungaslight you . Wherever you go in your healing , it's just important that you're showing up for yourself .

Whether it's me , whether it's a friend , whether it's somebody else , you deserve to feel like you can live a life that is for you . Hi Ben , thank you so much for talking with me again today , yeah absolutely Glad to be here . Tell us about who you are and what you do .

the trauma bond , the rumination , the toxicity of continuing to cycle back to a toxic person over and over and over again . So kind of like my tagline on some things is that my goal is to help people with awareness , growth , healing , change and development .

So we do this through two stages , really focusing on a healing journey helping people break out of the trauma bond and the limiting beliefs and the stories they're telling themselves and then change that to a growth mindset that has to maximize and start to develop and become , develop into the person that they're called the bee , which typically is moving forward out

of that toxic relationship towards a new goal , a new version of themselves that they haven't had a chance to see or unlock yet . And so we do that in a variety of different ways .

We have several different programs and things like that , but exclusively the biggest program that I work with one-on-one is our Thriver community that's actually focusing on helping them rewire the stories they believe I do every single day And not just about the toxic relationship At that point inside there we're honestly not talking about narcissists that much .

It's kind of wild because everybody at that point we've worked through the trauma bond piece and they're maximizing who they are in all four aspects of life that we really hone in and focus on So fitness , relationships , spirituality and then business And that we've seen some people massively grow , shift and change even over the past couple months , that we've been

constructing and putting all of it together for people .

It probably a little bit of a victim story , but also probably things that are happening in that relational dynamic that if we're aware of , we can see , But when we're not aware of , we might look aside or justify .

And the first thing that , as we know , i guess , like social media and we see a lot of bombing a lot , but I think that when we are attracted to a toxic partnership , we don't realize in those moments that the love bombing feels like genuine connection at the beginning .

And so I guess , if you can unpack for us what you see , maybe with your client base , of why love bombing feels so good in the beginning , I think I would kind of focus it in two aspects .

The hard part is , a lot of times , early on in a toxic relationship , the fact finding part from the toxic person has been let me figure out all the check boxes I need to check so I become the version that you want me to be , so that you actually stay with me or so that I get what I want from you .

And so a lot of times when the love bombing is ramping up and when it feels so great , it's because it's giving , oftentimes like the storybook , like the Disneyland version of like oh , this is what love is supposed to be And there's not a depth to it on the other side .

And then as people start to realize and they start to come out of the backside , it produces this giant incongruency in their minds of like I don't know the cognitive distance right Of like I don't actually know what to believe . And they start to believe in their mind that there's actually two versions of the narcissist , of the toxic person .

And that's the hard part , is actually helping them understand that there's not two separate versions . Like people will be like . He was so amazing , he was so loving , he was so kind , and then he turned to be this abusive person . That was a jerk to me And I just want the nice guy back .

I just want the nice version back and the one to latch themselves onto that until they actually start to realize , through the facts and through the story they're telling themselves , that the person that they actually are seeing now the abusive one is actually the real deal .

It's actually the actual person , but what they saw before was the mask was like an alternate version of reality that that person was portraying and coming across to look like in order to make them fall in love with them , in order for them to build a connection quickly , in order for them to lock in that thought process so that they would be with them long term

.

But this person , you know , the person that I'm getting now , the person that has shown me to be consistent in the last six months and wasn't present in the first month , like that one month person , is not here . He never actually existed . That was the mask .

And then it leaves you in this loop of always going back to the same toxic person , or always going to a toxic person and positively projecting , so like putting like good qualities on that person when they actually aren't there .

When I remember , like when I was younger , i had no idea what a trauma bond was or what that could be I remember feeling like , oh , i just need to get him on his good day , but like I was just forming trauma bonds all the time , can you talk a little bit about that dance between hope and potential and how that fuels the toxic relationship ?

So they would turn on the light and the monkeys would pull a lever and then they get a treat and they would do that for a long period of time , train them that way , and then they started doing it randomly .

They give a treat randomly , they turn the light on randomly , they would give it , they wouldn't give all this kind of stuff And what they realized is that the monkeys level of anticipation just the anticipation leading up to a rose to such high levels that it was the same as someone being addicted to cocaine .

That's what's happening in a toxic narcissistic relationship is you get to the place where you're hoping and you're thinking about this potential that locks you into this concept of maybe , maybe it'll happen , maybe this next time will be the time that he actually cares , that he actually comes home , that he actually loves me , and all these pieces start to play back

and forth that make you feel and hope and want and it produces this addictive quality And , like you see this exemplified in society with addicted to gambling or addicted to playing the lottery , and even addicted to drugs and looking after that anticipation of getting back to that first high that they never can get back to , all of that peace is that concept of

that hope and potential that sells you a lie of maybe this will get better . And so when we talk about trauma bond , i normally preface it of like hey , it's made of three main things One potential cognitive dissonance and then intermittent reinforcement , those like inconsistencies you're referencing .

They're like those make it super hard to be able to know if this person's actually the real deal or if they're not , or if they love me or if they don't love me , if they care about me , if they don't care me , if we're together or if we're broken up .

And that piece adds to the addictive piece because it becomes like a push-pull When you have a narcissist that is highly back and forth , highly inconsistent and highly inconsistent about , like , say , the relationship that's setting you up for a reverse Hoover , for the narcissist to be able to step back and be like I'm just going to wait for you to come to me

because you know that I've always gone back and forth . I've always kept you at bay with this push-pull where you're always trying to get into the relationship , you're always trying to apologize for something you didn't do , you're always trying to make amends for something that was my fault , that kind of like back and forth .

And so the inconsistency is another piece of the trauma bond . I believe that actually gets the person to always return or a lot of times come back because they've been conditioned to feel that way .

And then when you tie in that like maybe piece and then you throw in Future Fake and the whole nine yards , then you have like this entire like addictive , toxic , addictive , like ball . In one sense it just keeps you coming back .

But it was such an unhealthy version of love And when I had to do my own work to unpack that and figure out why I ended up and why I end up in these kinds of relationships and it was that that's actually what I thought of as normal , like that push and pull was normal to me . That's what I grew like . The abnormal was normal .

That's what I grew up feeling and believing and witnessing and seeing .

And I remember my coach at the time said what was a healthy partnership when you were growing up And I had literally no examples , i didn't even have friends , family , and so I think that when we're stuck in that addiction and it feels like love , it's so hard for us to be able to break out of it and to see like okay , this isn't healthy .

And then I think a lot of people say like well , i don't know what healthy is or that would be too hard , yeah , nope .

I'm like you have to understand a lot The longer that the kids are exposed to those tendencies , the tendency for your kids is going to be either going to grow up and be co-dependent , to get abused by a narcissist , or they're going to grow up and become a narcissist Just because that is how they're formed .

They're formed through childhood trauma and they're formed through the things that actually happen . And so oftentimes people get into a toxic relationship and it feels comfortable .

And it feels comfortable a lot of times because they think either this is what love is , this is like all I'm worth , all I'm good for , because of the stories that they believe , based on their childhood or their education or their religious organization or the things that have stemmed early on in their livelihood that's actually brought them to the place to believe .

We normally call them stories , but to believe a lie is not actually true , but it feels true in the moment because it's getting validated by a toxic person .

I feel like people come to you like even at the beginning actually , of this podcast you were talking about in your group like a lot of times you don't even talk about the narcissist , you talk about what they're going to do next and this new life that they're writing and creating .

What do you think is the hardest part for people when they are almost like they're in the depths of that toxic story before they get to this point of I get to rewrite a new life now ?

You actually can feel , grown , develop and like when you start to break and shatter the frame that people view that they're being controlled by the narcissist , when they actually have the capabilities to rewrite their story , rewire their story into becoming the person that they're actually called to be or like meant to be .

Once they can start to see the possibility , then like , the second hardest thing , which is the most hardest thing I would preface it that way is breaking the trauma bond .

And I think the trauma bond is misunderstood by a lot of people , is excused by a lot of people And , frankly , there's a lot of therapists out there that don't have a clue what they're dealing with when it comes to trauma bond . Now , i'm not saying that because I'm saying I'm smarter than a therapist Heck , no , i'm not .

You know , i got through school and I was glad to get out of that And that's it Okay . But what we actually target and work on is the only way to the only like short story . The only way to actually deal with the trauma bond and actually eradicate the trauma bond is truth . Now , how you actually get to the truth . There's multiple ways to do that .

We actually specifically hone in on the story that you believe And so getting down below the surface , understanding that every single day you're constantly triggered by a million different things in a toxic relationship times that by a thousand and you're always getting triggered by that toxic person .

How you respond to those triggers will either tell you or sell you a story that you're going to live in , ascribe to . Now that story might be like you're not good enough , or like if I was a better mom , he would have stayed , or if I would have given him more sex , he would have loved me , like .

There's so many stories and everyone's story is completely unique to themselves . But being able to go to that story , find it , that's one hard piece of it . But first find the story and then be able to put it on trial and say , look okay , like , let's walk through .

Like from a logic standpoint , what are the facts that actually prove or deny the story , like is it actually true ? Like do you know , without a shadow of doubt , this is actually true ? And then what would this look like if it wasn't true ?

and be able to actually work through the story that they believe to come up with a brand new story that ultimately replaces it . And that's partly what we focus on is helping people rewire the story that they believe , because otherwise the emotions kick off , the feelings kick off . It sells another version of reality , sells another story .

So , when they believe it , oftentimes it leaves them stuck in the toxicity and the victim mindset , in the place where they don't think they can get out because they don't think they're worth it or that that possibility is even there .

And when I work with people , i always tell them like , even if you can envision the full picture , if you could start to imagine parts of your life , moments of your life , being able to do your job without having your phone blowing up , and your thoughts in an argument with someone that happened yesterday , like , imagine being able to get through these tiny moments

, or like for me it was . I used to imagine sitting on the beach and being able to be present and playing with my kid with sand toys . It was like that meant the world to me and it was such a small moment , but that's the only one I could imagine at the point , at that point .

We're focusing on a lot of their goals , like three months , 12 months out , kind of a thing , and like we're focusing on what they want and not how they're going to get it .

Because every time a person focuses on , well , like this is what I want , but I don't know how I'm going to get it , they start to lower their goals , lower their standards and lower , like where they actually want to be six months , 12 months down the road , and so like the goal is like let's tie you to the vision of what you actually want And then let's

actually build a roadmap there , versus being like , oh , let's tie the vision to the roadmap I can already build . If we do that , we're always we're always selling ourselves really short .

But they are coming from a place of being extremely gaslit and probably I've only started to understand that the relationship was toxic . They most likely had this other person telling them that they were the toxic person .

And you're like I can't believe , you just kicked the dog . And he looks back at me and he says no , i didn't . So at first glance it's like okay , that's a lie , right . So gaslighting first off is a lying period . But then gaslighting is taking it to the next level of where it's like making you question your reality of like what are you talking about ?

I would never kick the dog , i love the dog . Why would you even say that that I kicked the dog ? Like it's taking it to a whole new level to even make people doubt their current reality .

Probably one of the best examples I have of this was a client by like a year and a half ago that she was having a conversation with her toxic partner in the kitchen and they had the cameras in the house And he said something that was like super awful and offensive . She was like I can't believe you just said that .

And he was like what are you talking about ? Like I didn't say that . And she was like yes , you did . You literally just said that . He was like no , i didn't .

And so she went , she grabbed , like the security iPad and like pulled up the camera because there was motion sensitive at that point and played back the recording where he could actually hear him say the words that he said he did not say . And he looked her dead in the face and was like I didn't say that , i don't know what you're talking about .

And like she doubted herself so much like she literally had to take the iPad and go to friends and family and like set it down and play it for me And be like can you tell me what you heard ? because she was doubting her perception , her reality of what she'd experienced , because the other person seemed so dead set that her reality was wrong .

So , like a big piece of it , like we've kind of danced around a lot of this subject , but like a big piece of like all these pieces around , like the gaslighting , the trauma bond , intermittent reinforcement , hope and potential It all keeps people like cycling right , like cycling back and forth with a toxic person in a toxic relationship , which ultimately leaves

people a lot of times being like maybe I'm like cursed , maybe something's broken with me , maybe there's an issue , like why do I keep like attracting these type of people ? and like you have lines of people that will come and they'll be like ?

I just feel like I see a pattern of like I've been with a toxic person and I got out and I was with another toxic person . I was with another toxic person , like do you see that as well ? where there's it seems like there's like a cycle .

Right , what is going on within you that is keeping you in that cycle and is there a resistance to healing in some way ? I think that sometimes people come into this work and they this may be 10% out of 100 of they just want to be validated and then they go and they don't do the real , true inner work on themselves to not repeat the cycle .

While all that is true to some degree like there's different nuances of it , the end of the day , i think a big piece that boils down to why people attract narcissists consistently . Now I've had some pushback on this .

I'll be interested to hear these thoughts , but I believe for me , what I've seen consistently in talking to clients is typically the people that are attracting a narcissist consistently is someone that actually doesn't know who they are and doesn't have strong boundaries , which is because they don't know who they are , and so that lack of like , purpose and direction , of

like this is who I am and this is the direction I'm going , and these are the boundaries that actually are keeping me going .

This direction are typically one of the reasons why a narcissist comes into a person's life and pulls them off of that road , because that person isn't locked into the vision of who they actually want to be and they're not strong in the boundaries that they actually want to have .

Now that could be from a maraud of different reasons why that's happened or why they're that way from childhood , from all the things we kind of touched on earlier .

But at the end of the day , like a narcissist is like let me find someone that I can manipulate or that I can use or I can fill a void so I can actually capture and control and manipulate to what I want them to do , and all of them is . The easiest way is to find people that don't know who they are and who don't have solid boundaries .

I had two narcissistic relationships and I think that For the first one , i wanted to be this person who was like more fluid , more easy going , you know , didn't jump on everything , wasn't controlling , didn't have all these ideas Like . I always prided myself on like not being someone that is like so , you know , drama focused .

But when I look back now , i didn't know who I was And I just really wanted to be this person And I allowed a lot of toxic behavior to happen because I didn't want to make a quote unquote big deal out of things . I had strong boundaries at that point , but not strong enough to push them away .

And then in this , the second relationship and this is where , like , the 50% agreeance comes in is that I actually knew who I was and I knew and I said who I was . I remember the day that I met him . I said I actually I met him like out in the world , which doesn't happen in real life anymore And he was . I was like .

He was like you're , like we , you know , we were drinking , we were at a bar and he was like you're going to come home with me tonight And like no , i'm not going home . And he was like no , you're going to come with me . And I was like no , i'm not , i'm a single parent , i'm going home .

And he was like you're a single parent And I'm like I'm a single parent , i'm going home .

I'm leaving in 10 minutes actually , because my baby said I asked to leave And I completely said who I was And then , like the next date , i was completely myself And I think he was attracted to me as that person but could not deal with the fact that , like I did know who I was and that I did have boundaries because I did , but he did everything to shake

them . And he , and he did a good job of it . And then I ended up . I ended up feeling like my boundaries were ridiculous , Like , like , why do I have to be rigid about this ? Or why am I upset when I show up at his you know apartment for a date and he's asleep , Like what's wrong with me for being like this ?

When it's like , no , the boundary is , we had a time I'm paying a babysitter . He's not ready , You know like I should just go home .

But I just think that yeah , but I think , like because I've also I've worked with really self-assured women who do know who they are , but after you are love bombed and like maybe I think it's also true And I know I feel this I don't want to speak for other women out there , but I definitely feel like I know who I am and I feel good about what I do

that sometimes men can be intimidated and they don't say that , but they want someone . That's a little bit more agreeable And I have had a few clients say that too And then I think a narcissist .

I sometimes wonder , like if they want somebody with that strength , if they're attracted to somebody like with that kind of strength , and then they almost , like it becomes a project to like tear them down . I don't think it's always a conscious project .

It becomes so controlling And then now when this really strong person no longer knows who they are , they are now dependent on this person .

It's going to sound probably really stupid , but a narcissist looks like a narcissist looks at a woman that makes a lot more money than him . He's like , whoa , like that's pretty cool , let me be with her , because if I'm with her then I'll be better . Like I'll have better status , i'll have better money , i'll look better , i'll be with her .

And he's like , oh crap , like I'm still the same person , like it didn't change anything , like she still makes more money than me .

I'm still the person that's not doing like what I need to do to actually move , grow and develop , and so like then it's like , okay , well , now what I do , i got to feed my ego and my ego is hurting because this person's still making more money and I don't feel any better about being in the relationship .

So now I need to belittle and bring the person down . And then in the narcissist mind . It's like let me bring her down to like my level , so that her work life suffers , so she suffers all those different types of peace , so that I feel better about myself , even though , if we looked even like on a balance sheet , in one sense I'm still not performing .

She was one of the top psychologist psychiatrist at the hospital and she and her partner worked like in maintenance or you know something that like the facilities in some way , And then he would start like what they got together , She thought he was the best and then he started controlling her money and she made three times the amount that he did and he and she

would get mad at her if she went to Target and didn't tell him what she was getting before she got home . And they weren't married , They were just dating , and it became . It was so and it was so hard and that was something that you know .

She was definitely somebody who came to me and was , like I am the strong woman , Like I have excelled in my career . I do not know how I got into this , but this is like this is where it's at , you know , and this is what I need to untangle . I think it can be so hard , But I mean , I think that's like where are that ?

some of that self-shaming comes in of , like how did I get myself here ? And I've been in that cycle too , And I just try and remind people , like if you're at that point of how did I get myself there ? You're right next to well how can I get myself out ? That's like . The next thought is like how did I get myself here ?

Okay , I'm here , accepting , Now I got to get myself out .

But at the same time I do believe that once we know the signs , and we see the signs and we are aware of the signs , it is our responsibility to get ourselves out of it . I was just curious what you thought about that too .

I don't think it should be something where someone's shaming because I hate it when people are just like nemesis therapists whether it be like just leave , you need to dump , you need to block them I'm like that doesn't do anything , it doesn't actually help the person at all .

I had a client that signed on with us recently and she literally spent like tens of thousands of dollars on therapy and she's like I've learned more already working here than what I did in therapy . Because I'm like I'm not going to tell you just to leave .

I'm going to actually help you , work on you and develop the mindset and the clarity that you need to make the decision that you need to make , because if I just tell you to do it , it's not going to last . Early on in coaching I would probably be like , hey , you just need to leave . I still say that on videos and live events and stuff like that .

But at the end of the day I never force or try to force a client to do anything because I know it won't last . It has to be from them . So there is this piece of once . You see it , i would say , yes , it is your responsibility , but then it's kind of left in a shame cycle for not careful of someone being like yes , but how ?

And then that's where you come in with all the stuff that you do and try to coach people . I come in with the programs and how . I try to coach people as well of like , okay , here's how We have an actual roadmap , we have a way to be able to move from point A to point B .

If you actually trust the process , if you actually show up and do the work And I'm very clear with people before they even sign on to our Thriver community , i'm just like , hey , just so you know I'm not here to save you and I'm not going to do the work for you .

And they're kind of like whoa , and I'm like , because this isn't some quick fix , i'm not going to tell you to do this , sprinkle some pixie dust and everything's going to be fixed . Like this is a journey that you have to commit to because you know we can actually get you there .

But if you're not willing to trust it , like it's just not going to work And so like that whole process is just just helping people understand , like , hey , we can get you there , like , but we have to be able to say that this is where you're at , this is where you're going .

Now that's working on actually scripting out the day to day so that you can actually achieve the version of you you want to be .

Be honest with people because if somebody's coming up to you and they're like I did this , this , this and this , And then you know , you think they're doing the work , and then they're like behind the scenes , like texting their ex , or you know they met up or they had , or they're like , Oh , I just , but it was just sex , It wasn't any .

It's like that's a piece of the puzzle , right , And it's a piece of your healing And we know the honesty . And if you're doing all this work but you're slipping , that is okay . Like that , you are a human being and healing is not linear .

But when you come and then you cover that up and you don't feel safe , being honest , that's really difficult because then we can't meet you where you are and actually help you heal the toxic patterns 100% .

You have no road signs , you have no idea where you actually are on the map . Like that's where we kind of are .

A lot of times when we're dealing with anybody , like any human in general , like unless the person's willing to be honest and vulnerable about like , hey , this is actually the stuff that's going on , it's not pretty , I don't like it , but this is where I'm at Then we can literally like guide them towards the end result .

We can help script out a path for them to get to be the version that they want to be . But if there's that block of like , well , like , i think I'm over here , or actually I'm kind of over here , well , actually I'm kind of over here . Well , that's not true .

And like like , sometimes I'll push and kind of press clients a little bit because I'm like okay , well , like , what are the facts ? Like what's actually true . And they're like well , you know , i had a client earlier . She was like , well , let me take that back , it's actually this way . And then she's like let me take it back , it's actually this way .

We got down . The bottom of it was completely different than what she thought it actually was , but then that's where she was actually able to start accessing Keelan .

And once you open up that door of honesty for anybody for toxic people , for healthy people once you open up that door of being honest , it opens up a possibility to actually be able to access how I don't like , describe it as like another version of you , like the version that you actually want to become Like there's , there's there's pieces of you right now that

you don't like , and the pieces that you do like and you're like okay . how do I feel about those ?

What do I need to do to grow , change , develop , to become the version of the person that actually shows up in a powerful , confident way , with certainty and clarity of this is who I actually am , or who I'm called to be , and like life is that journey of being able to uncover that , and so , the more you're able to be honest , to like this is my current ,

you know , work of art and this is current the either painting that I'm trying to get to like . once we're honest with it , then we're able to start actually to help people paint the picture that they're looking to have their life be .

I know you have so much going on , but I think that this is really going to be helpful and maybe even just a first step for people that are struggling and they're in toxic relationships or they're in that cycle , and they listen to this , they feel validated and now at least they have some seeds of what to start to do .

You mentioned a few times your Thriver community and I know we touched on it at the beginning , but I would love if you could tell us where how people can find you , but also touch on the Thriver community and I'll put all the details in the show notes . But just so , if someone's ready right now , they can just go on and find you .

And then easiest way to be able to contact me and to start that process , the kind of application process to move forward , whether you're working together or into Thriver community you'd be to go to wwwrawmotivationscom . We recently just like switch web providers , we have to have the wwwnow , So wwwrawmotivationscom , and then click on the one-on-ones .

There's actually a form you can fill out there to see if we'd be a good fit to start working together and moving forward . But the stuff we do inside of Thriver is really advanced in helping people . We walk people through depending on where they actually are in life .

So , for instance , I might have someone that comes to Thriver that is already out of the toxic relationship , already out of the trauma bond , and they're just like I want to grow and we're like perfect , jump right in .

And then we have people that are like I'm stuck in it , but I want to be a part of Thriver as well , and we're like perfect , We have them jump in , but we have them go through some of our courses first , And so basically the people that sign on with us and they haven't experienced anything inside of our motivations .

We're like , hey , if you're signing on for like a three month window that we're working with you , we're actually adding an extra month on for free And just saying , hey , we're going to actually walk you through , making sure you have the basics and you understand how we're going to break the trauma bond , to make sure that they actually have the majority of that

broken or work through So they have a working knowledge of how the process we use every single day of rewiring their mindset works .

And then when we do that , we found that it actually at first I was like maybe I need to keep it separate , But then we started realizing when we're able to combine someone who's out of the relationship and someone who's like in it right now , but have them walk and maybe like the same group call and have them walk through and exercise together , it's super

empowering because then they're actually seeing other people that are five steps , 20 steps , 50 steps before them or someone who's behind them , all going in the same progression and that accountability and the community of just everyone showing up real and honest and all of them hunting down like the version of them that they want to be able to achieve in their life

is hugely rewarding . It's really awesome to see .

Inside Thriver we focus a lot of not just the healing part but then the growth piece , using a lot of the compound effect of like what are you doing today ? that's actually putting you towards the version of you that you want to unlock . In doing that , we had someone inside of Thriver a week ago and she came on .

She was like , the stuff I just accomplished in the past two weeks typically would have taken me two months , but she's like I'm not stressed , it all worked because she was able to actually hone in who she was like , the direction she was going , and have it match up on a daily basis to be able to move her forward to the version of her that she's trying to

unlock . So it's really awesome to see the progression and sometimes the speed that people are able to move forward , at a very high rate at times .