Ep. 803: Mindsets of the Whitetail Masters: Tony Peterson

of good stuff, which is still ongoing. But today we also have some different excited First Light whitetail news that I want to quickly tell you about before we get to this Mindsets of the whitetail Masters podcast and in a special edition of our Mindsets of the whitetail Masters podcast. Because the guy who's on here today, I wouldn't call him a white tail master. He's more of a knucklehead. But somehow he slipped his way in here. But I'm kidding.

I'm kidding. But before we get to that, and while I still have Tony on mute, we have to talk about first Lights brand new as of just a couple of days ago, launch of are revamped, completely new white tail system. Three new whitetail systems have launched as of July thirtieth, twenty twenty four. Tony and I both got to be a part of that process, you know, prototyping

this gear for like three years. I've been involved in kind of conference calls and zoom meetings and back and forth feedback sessions discussing what we liked about the old stuff, what we didn't like about the old stuff, what are all the little things and changes that we would like

to see made. You know, I think something that Tony and I have talked a lot about within our deer hunting kind of world is the importance of the little details, the tiny tweaks, all these little one percent things that stack up and end up making a big difference in the end. That's the approach that we've tried to take with this new gear, and so that's that's at a very high level. What's now dropped there is the new

phase system, the core system and the thermic system. The phase is going to be well, you know, Tony, do you wanna do you wanna run through any thoughts or sharing quick thoughts before I walk through a quick system overview?

this process. You know, we spend time sitting around a table with the people who actually put this stuff together, and you know, in July and Idaho three years ago or whatever, it was talking about what we want to see, and these things go through iterations and you know, they they do a lot of behind the scenes stuff and it bounces back and forth with us where we get to try this stuff out in the field and it's amazing to be a part of that and go hunt

really nasty conditions and then be able to text somebody or email somebody from a tree stand and be like, hey, this little thing is not working for me, or like I love this or I hate this or whatever, and you can you can affect change, like in real time

while you're actually hunting with this stuff. And there's you know, it's not just you and I working on this right Like, there's so we had so many people out testing this stuff out on actual hunts that people can watch, you know, coming up here pretty soon that we filmed for the last few years. It's pretty incredible process. There's so I didn't know what really went into that until being involved in this latest wave.

has from Hartlan Bowhunter. You know a lot of people that take this stuff really really serious, put this stuff through the paces, and you know, we would reach out to our buddy Greg at First Light and the other guy's working on say hey, this thing sucks or this thing didn't work, or this thing needs to be changed or whatever, and we would get changes made, which is

like you said, it's encouraging, it's exciting. And what we have now is a set of products that I think we're pretty stoked to be using and excited that the rest of the world now gets to see and use. And like I mentioned, as of July thirtieth, it's out there. You can see him over at first light dot com. There's the three sets. Like I mentioned, We've got the Phase system, which is going to be the kind of

soft shell replacement in the past. We put the catalyst in this bucket, so if anyone's used the catalyst, this is kind of within that use case bucket. It is a wind proof, incredibly silent soft ship all jacket and bib. It's got a light flea sexterior. That's something that a lot of people have wanted. People really like that flea sex tier because it's so quiet. We finally now have that and it's the quietest wind proof soft shell out there.

That's the phase that's gonna be something you can wear earlier in the year, or you could wear it later into the year if you layer a whole bunch of stuff underneath it, but it's not heavily insulated, it's more of that outer shell and light fleece insulation.

more packable. And then the exterior is the same as what we have on the Source jacket. So everyone who's used the Source loves the Source. Right, that's our white tail puffy, very silent, but still heavy duty and puffy

and packable. Well, now you essentially have that but built out with you know, improved, you know, white tail specific feature set with a new kit link pass through system, with new removable hoods, new fit and feel with the collar, fit and feel with the wrists, a whole bunch of things. I won't go through every single little feature set right now, but I will say that all of these feature improvements are across all three systems Phase, Core, and Thermic, So

that is the same. You'll just have a different fabrics, different insulations for each kit. So there's the Phase, like we talked about, versatile or earlier than the Core, which is like you're, you know, twenty degrees through forty degrees, kind of like the sweet spot for the core, you know,

that rut, hopeful rut temperatures. And then there's the Thermic, which is like that you're never going to be cold again, super late season, super nasty blizzard, freezing, freezing, freezing cold temperatures, very burly late season suits, and that again has the same feature set, but a ton of insulation, a very thick, like heavy piled fleece interior even in there. So if you're looking to be super duper cozy and you hunt in North Dakota or northern Minnesota or Canada or whatever

it is. That's a great option. So I guess I don't want to spend too much time on it and bore folks. But that's that's I think the high level. Is there any other quick thing you want to make sure relief folks with?

works for some people, doesn't work for others. Like man, they did a good job addressing that stuff, you know, and when you say you like the core is sort of the heart of the rut type of of system. Dude. I wore that sucker sitting all day in a blizzard in North Dakota, just because I didn't think I was going to be dealing with weather that bad. And this was like weather that would call for thermic on paper

all day long. And we sat out there all day in that prairie wind killed the buck at last light, and it was it was gnarly and that was our mid layer system, but it was you know, when you start blocking the wind and dealing with some of the materials they've put in there, it's just it's amazing what a good job they've done. And how much more like I don't know if you feel this way, but like, how much more form fitting our stuff has gotten like this this new these new releases are awesome.

it's a it's a higher quality insulating material. You actually get significantly higher insulating value in this lighter, packable, seemingly lighter weight garment, which which I which I really like. And it's all all three of these systems are all one wind proof, so you know you're gonna have no wind problems no matter which version you decide it is right for your setup or for where you're You know, your region of hunting is the most So yeah, I

guess I'll leave it at that. I'd say go to first light dot com, dive into the details on this stuff if you're interested. We'll have a lot more on this in the future, lots to share as far as you know, our favorite pieces or our setups and our kits and what we're using in different situations. But for now,

you're where it's out, it's exciting worth checking out. And with that, the one other thing that's out now and exciting and worth checking out is a thing that you and I Tony have been working on closely, which is our new white Tail edu video series. You want to tell folks about that.

You could answer that so many different ways. And we realized as we were kind of conceptualizing this thing that there's a lot of these sort of universal questions that we get that just need sort of a deep dive answer that's not just super regionally specific, that covers everybody.

And you know, so in that one, just to just kind of lay it out, you know, yeah, we talked about egg and destination, food sources and food plots, but you get pretty deep into soft mask hard masked brows and the entirety of the white tail's diet, no matter where you're hunting, and whether you're on public or private, or you're in the big woods up north or some real egg heavy section of Middle America, and it's just

every topic is like that. So deer tracks, rubs, stuff that sounds pretty basic, and maybe somebody who's been you know, bow hunting for forty five years, maybe you know, maybe it's not entirely for them as much, but for most of the white tail audience we hear from, it was just kind of a way to get this this educational piece out there, this series and cover so many of these fundamental, fundamental questions we get asked all the time.

we're getting at. But then also we would we would try to end with that next level of how do you use this? How do you interpret this? How do how do we get from just identifying deer tracks to then identifying the little nuances that deer tracks tell us, to then also thinking about how do we connect all these dots to formulate a hunting strategy. I think we tried to do that with each of these different topics.

So there's gonna be a little bit something for that beginner all the way to you know, that more experienced deer hunter who's just trying to shore up their foundation, get some good remind and maybe get an interesting aha moment or two. Throughout But the idea here was to get anyone who listens to the Wired Hunt podcast who's been jumping in and maybe sometimes feels like, man, they're talking about a few things here that I'm not exactly sure what they're getting at, Like it's a little over

my head. If you follow along with this edu series, you shouldn't have that problem in the future. So if you're new if you have newer friends, if you've got folks who are you know, a little bit earlier in their journey than you are, you know, if you're a forty five years in, guy, pass these along to them,

check them out yourself. I imagine we're going to continue to do more of these as we get feedback and get you know, more ideas about the other topics that folks have questions about that want this kind of treatment on. But yeah, that's that's the idea. So the first one

came out in July. There's probably three or four of them out by now when this episode drops, So check out out over at the Meat either Clips YouTube channel, so that's Meat Eater Clips C l I p s and subscribe there so you'll see all the new episodes when they drop. I'll say there was one of these episodes that I don't know if it'll make it into the cut, but I literally cried. I was laughing so hard while we were trying to film it. So I don't know if that's gonna see the lighted day or not.

But but there is a moment where I'm crying and Tony called me an asshole or something. So with that only pretty pretty rich if it makes it out, then.

It's not that kind of stuff I'm interested in. It's the the mechanics, like the decision making, the mental models, the way these people think, the way these people deal with adversity, adversity, the way these people deal with success, all that kind of stuff. I want to understand that kind of behind the curtains kind of thing. And you know, you and I have talked about the nuts and bolts of deer hunting at Nausen for years now, but I don't think we've covered some of this stuff with you.

And you obviously are very thoughtful, analytical, and I think you're gonna have a lot to share on this one. So I'm excited to run you through with this series of questions I'd say the only kind of thing I would tell you is the more that you can tell me and us about your internal dialogue when you think about this stuff or when you're in these moments, the

more interesting it is. I think that's been Like the thing I've tried to get to all of our guests is like, what's going on in your head when this thing happens? What do you say to yourself or what do you what are the demons you're wrestling with? And I know you've got some demons, Tony, so this one should be good man.

have a chance that really matters to me. Think it's very satisfying for me at this point in my life to you know, encounter a new situation whatever that is, you know, even if it's a place I've been hunting a long time, but there's new people there, you know,

new crop rotation, whatever, I don't I don't care. Or if it's going someplace to public land hunt for four days, putting myself in a position like doing the work to get into the position where I'm like, I have a real shot, like it might not I might not get one, it might not work out, but seeing that deer, or putting myself in a position where I'm like, I believe I did what it takes to get here, and a lot of times it doesn't break your way, but for me,

it really It bothers me to not fill tags, but not like it used to. It bothers me more than anything to feel like I settled at any level, Like I just I don't like that feeling. I like feeling like you scouted, you put the work in, however that may go for whatever hunt I'm on, and just getting to the point where it's like he's there, but he didn't come in or he came in and he shot him, or he got down windy and he winded you, but it was you know, he was at forty yards. Like

those are like successful moments to me, you know. And and of course I like filling tags, but I like feeling like I just I did everything I could to get there.

say this just because I feel this. I say the same thing you're saying, and I'm trying to get there, But I also struggle with it being easier said than done sometimes in the moment when there's all this like in season pressure and expectations.

know that that looks like failure on paper. The places I head back to and the new places I hunt and that you know they're trying to hunt at different times of the season or trying new stuff out almost always stems from me getting my ass kicked somehow, and so it instead of like dwelling on it and being like, man, I paid for this non resident tag and I ate it and that sucks a lot of that stuff just makes me really want to go back next year, you know.

And anybody who's who's elk hunted, you know, like the first time yell hunt like it, it takes you one of two ways, right, You're like, I don't need to do this again, like that was I'm glad I did it. I don't need it anymore. Or you're like, I have to go back to the mountains. I have to be in that setting and I have to try again, and you know you're gonna work out harder next year. You're gonna blow on that bugle tube until your dogs go insane.

You're gonna you're gonna use that as motivation. And so I look at this stuff. You know, people people look at us or you know, like people in the industry, and they go, you know, like it seems easy for Andy May to go fill tags, right, but you don't get to see Andy May's struggle years. Like you don't get to see just the amount of scouting. And I know we've talked about this a lot, but like that's those are the parts that make this whole thing, huh.

And so to go out and put in that world wherever and not fill that tag is okay because it's gonna drive a certain amount of people and like I'm one of them, Like you're going to keep trying at that, you know, And it's it's like the other part of that for me is once I do something like let's say I go I don't know wherever, South Dakota and I kill a buck on a pond, part of me wants to go back there and hunt that same pond again.

And part of me never wants to see it again, because I know I did it, you know, and you know how it is like you go out there and now they're graising cattle here and there's a quarantine and the situation is vastly different. So it's not like you're returning to the same thing. But it's like that process of figuring new stuff out and just feeling that feeling of like you put yourself there and you failed, like go back, get like complete this mission and move on.

It's just that that part is like such a powerful motivator for me.

like figure this out, like you're not there yet. When I'm just like now I'm just gonna do this or I don't you know, like let's a lot of these hunts you go on, right, hunt in the morning, scout hunt in the evening. That's kind of your day setup. If I don't use that midday time, you know, so then I'm like i feel like I'm a little bit behind. Like that's a failure to me, like not being efficient

and just keep looking, because that's that's the thing. You know, Like Steve talks about this since our hunt where it's like he's like, you're not like an optimistic hunter. You're like, just nose to the grindstone. Let's just work through this

and figure it out. But that's like the process, you know, Like you and I were talking before this about your race that you just did a little bit ago, and you were talking about how the prep work and the training runs were almost more satisfying than actually doing the race, and it's like that's why whitetail hunting is so beautiful.

I don't care if you have that private place that you're just like working on making it into like a deer paradise and you're putting all that off season time in, or if you're a hardcore public land hunter and you scout a lot and on a totally different path like that work building up to it. If you can feel good about that, it's going to be hard to believe

you fail. But it's like when you just take that shortcut or you go like you sit somewhere where you're like the wind is not right, or I just like have no belief that they're going to come in here, which is you know when I think about like when I was growing up, my dad and I would hang like four or five stands, and then when you had a chance to hunt, you'd be like, well, you're going to sit the acorn stand or the crossing or what like.

It was never like they should be going through here now because it's October tenth and they should be doing this. It was just like, let's just sit there and hope they walk by. That's like a failure to me, you know, and I think a lot of people do that, and I don't. I just that feeling drives me freaking nuts. I don't like it.

you when you think about that. I mean, there's been a few times in my life, like I can remember very specifically one time down in Oklahoma hunting this total deer desert down there in this on this public land where I couldn't find a deer. I mean, I just like I walked around for like five hours one afternoon, sweating, I had nothing going on. I finally jumped a little buck out of a patch of timber, and I'm like, I'm gonna set up here, see if he comes back.

Like this is like the deer I have to work with. And I walked up to this tree and it had the deep grooves in the bark, and there were all these hornets that perfectly matched the color of the bark as I'm like throwing my first stick strap around and I'm like, oh my god, what's going on here? And I looked and they were all in there because it was like it was a cold front down there, so I think they were just hold up, but they certainly

wouldn't have tolerated me climbing that tree. And I just remember thinking like this sucks so much, like I have nothing going on, and on that trip, I just like I remember that feeling of like trying so hard and having nothing, and my buddy and I just talk and like, let's just go somewhere else. Let's not because you're kind of at the point like should we just go home like it was that hopeless or should we just call an audible go somewhere else.

didn't play with me, like for whatever reason. The best setup I had for them, I had five coyotes come in at one time, which I've never had before, and it was just like another one of those times where it's like, you know, I could be home in ten hours, like what am I doing here? And just that feeling of being like, you know, if you keep going, something's probably going to fall into place and you might not kill one, but at least you'll have like an answer

to this huge problem you can't seem to solve. And I ended up finding a little honey hoole thing after walking around forever and killing two deer. In like ten minutes, I kill a don a buck, And I was like, those moments are so reinforcing because there's not like in those situations, you can't go back to the house and be like I'll just come back on Halloween. You know, like it's either you do it now or you don't

do it. And so you know how that is, Like you sit there and you make all these excuses and you second guess yourself and sometimes you just flame out for days and days and days and it doesn't work. But sometimes you fight through those those bad thoughts and something good happens and that is like fuel forever, Like that never goes away from you, you know what I mean, Like I was, you know, you just did that race.

My buddy just did a Marria on this spring, and he was telling me and he I mean, he's he's a pretty fast runner. He had a great time, and he was he was ready, like he trained hard, and he said he hit mile twenty four and it was like he was carrying an extra person on his back, and he's like, I wanted to quit in a way

that never has occurred to me before. But he's like mile twenty four, you know, like you got to power through that, and he did, and he was like, you know, he wrote rode that runners high afterwards and he you know, like he did an awesome job. But we hit those moments in hunting all the time. They're probably a little more subdued than that, like that would hit you like

that would be a heavy one. But every time you kind of just fight through that and go I'm not I'm not going to listen to the voice that tells me to just give in or make the excuse to try later when it might be better, like just just fight through that stuff. It oftentimes works in your favor.

to talk myself through that stuff. Like maybe I'm maybe I'm a crazy person, but uh, but like, for example, speaking of races, like the race that I just did, you you the first like two thirds of the race is going up to the top of the Teetown Range, like almost six thousand feet up, just endless climbing, and then you come off the summit and there's a very long it was mostly single track trail all the way

to the top. But then on the way down there's like a service road that comes down off this this peak because there's a ski resource, so there was a road up one side. So there's just a long steep, pretty fast rundown. So your quads are just getting pounded. So first you're like, oh, this is great going downhill, but then after you do that for like two miles or however long, it was like you're like, oh man,

now your quads are just getting hammered. Every time, right at that moment where you start to feel like, oh geez, like my quads are getting destroyed, it stops and then it went way down and now all of a sudden, there's another uphill and you go up again. Forever it was all downhill from there, like you just thought it was all easy stand on from now, and now it's like, man, another huge climb. And I just remember, like on that

huge climb. It's very cheesy, but I literally for half hour just said like, you can do this, you will do this, you can do this, you will do this. And I literally said that to myself for half an hour in my head as I just like trudged up this freaking mountain again. And and that kind of stuff works. That kind of stuff helps well.

of ties back to our EDU series. I think everybody thinks that they can hunt deer as well as everyone else, you know, I mean, I guess it's a little different for like newbies like seem to know, like, hey, I don't know what the hell's going on, Especially with dudes

who've been doing it a while. It's like it's very easy to be like we're all kind of on the same level, but really, like the difference maker is almost always what's between your ears, Like you if you put a bunch of people, you know, like I've I've been talking about this a lot lately because a lot of people have been reaching out about you know, the resident non resident fighting in all these different states and these

opportunities we're losing. And I'll tell you what, dude, I have people reach out often who are like I hunt X state and the public land's so busy, I can't kill deer anymore. So I do think we should cut down on the over the countertags or make it all a draw or whatever. But you don't I never hear anybody say like I've been scouting more than usual, or I've been putting in more work, or I've been trying

to figure something out. It's it's almost always like what I've always done doesn't work anymore, and so there's some out external factor that needs to change. But you can get rid of those non residents, and the leasing is still going to happen, and there's still going to be more people pushed on to public land, and it's still going to be on you to figure this stuff out. And certainly you could certainly make it easier for yourself if you kicked out twenty percent of the hunters or

whatever the number is. But over time it's going to normalize again, and it's going to be up to you to figure that stuff out. And the more that you're just like I just have to kind of see this through and think about this and work through these problems, the better off, you know.

remember like reading a forum, bow site or archery talk or something, and so many people were like, there are no big bucks on public land in Nebraska because our gun season happens during the rut and we have over the counter non resident tags and just like on down the line, and I was just like, I have very rarely encountered better hunting anywhere than I'm seeing on your

public land that you guys believe isn't good enough. And you see that all over and like I do it, like we all have our you know, we're all biased towards something, but that mindset of like it's just not possible, like there's no big bucks here or they're all killed off or they all get pushed off of this land or whatever. I'm like, almost without question everything that we say in hunting where we're like you can't do that,

somebody does it, you know what I mean. Like, and you may can go to Kentucky and the land between the Lakes to kill a big one if you live there, you have that opportunity too. So what's going on.

just total meltdown buck fever thing. And that that moment, like what I felt there after like twelve years of trying and then having two just perfect opportunities served up to me within ten minutes of each other, and me just totally shitting the bed on both of them. I was like that moment changed how I looked at a

lot of stuff because it it took. It took everything that was like an external thing that I could use, right, like the other people who hunted there, or the fact that I'm in Minnesota and we don't get a lot of rut time, and all of these excuses I could have used, and I went, man, none of that mattered there. That was all on me, and I screwed it all up. And I remember, I mean when I first started hunting when I was twelve in Minnesota, and I was like,

I just want to kill a deer so bad. I remember one of the times we used to hunt down in the bluffs along the river and it was, you know, beautiful country and whatever. And I went into this stand in October in the morning, heard a deer coming in. I had a little fawn, little dough fawn come into like eight yards, and I was like, you know, at that time, for me to see a deer, it was like a big deal. And that little girl came in posed up, and I was like, I'm gonna kill this

fawn and it's gonna be so awesome. And I shot at that little fawn three times at like eight to twelve yards, missed her every time, and it was kind of another one of those moments where it was like, oh, I thought all that needed to happen was for that deer to get there, and then I'd have that tag filled, you know, And then you learn where you're like, nope, it's there's still so many points of failure that can happen for me, and you start to realize like, Okay,

what can I do to mitigate most of this because there's gonna be wild card factors no matter what. And so those two times, and I've had I've had a lot of others, right, Like I've I've had a I had a moment turkey hunting one time. This is going to sound really stupid, but I'm a pretty patient guy, especially like bow hunting turkeys. Like I can sit all day and I believe the process. Right, it's kind of

like rud hunting, Like it's not that much fun. Sometimes it's dark to dark, but you know it works, like we all know it works, so if you have the discipline to do it well. I had gone out. I was bow hunting turkeys in southeastern Minnesota, and I sat for like, you know till it was like five in the afternoon, from from sunrise on to that point, and I was gonna sit all day, and all the birds I was hunting flew down right away and just left

the whole farm. I watch them go so far away, but you know, like you could call in a rando, there could be a two year old whatever. And I sat there and I like talked myself in to going to get to my truck to get a full strutter, because I'm like, I just want like I just wanted to get out of the stupid blind, Like I didn't really want the full strutter. I didn't care. I needed

an excuse to get out. And I got out of that blind after sitting there for like twelve hours, and I looked up the fence row and there was a great big tom like fifty yards away walking in and he blew off. And I just remember thinking, like, you absolutely knew better, You absolutely knew better, but you talked yourself into this because you're a weak lit'tle be and you just like like those moments when when something like that happens where it's like totally in my purview and

I did it to myself. That drives me crazy. Like you know how it is if you're sitting there and somebody drives a four wheeler in a last light or something like that pisss you off, but it's like that's like a part of the game and you can't do it. You can't control that god from the machine man, like, you can't do anything about it. But when it's you and you know you're talking yourself into the dumb decision

drives me nuts. And so I've had one hundred million moments like that that just forced me to like not want to feel that way again.

a I think it was twenty fourteen. I had like a banger year where it was like everywhere I went, like big ones were hitting the dirt and big meal deer. I killed bear, Like just a good year. And that the variety of situations I was in or that I put myself in in the in that year and it kind of leading up to it just led me to realize, you've been looking for the wrong stuff out here, like you've been You've been looking for where like what what

decoy can I buy? Or you know, if I set up here, like what kind of sentense should I put out? Or like I was looking for thing that was outside the process to fill in a gap. But when you start to go travel to new places and you're like, I have a limited amount of time. That stuff doesn't work, Like I mean I shouldn't say that, Like that stuff can work, but it is not going to carry you through.

Like that is not how you fill a tag. It is just getting out there and scouting and always putting yourself in Like what you think is the best position and managing managing like your impact and your time, like knowing I have the best spot I found here, here's my my a spot, I have BCD whatever I want to hunt a right now, Like I want to go in there, but looking at the forecast and going I realistically wouldn't be able to hunt there if I was being smart until the second to last day, I'm going

to be here and still knowing that walking away from that and going to be and sitting there, going to see sitting there and watching this whole thing unfold. That's probably like learning to just like trust that process and like embrace that reality instead of trying to like plug a hole somewhere in there with something I can buy or some some tactic that somebody else uses. Just just understanding for myself what it takes was a huge Like it changed the arc of all of my own I'm

talking like pheasants, whitetails on private land, elk whatever. It changed everything when I realized, like most of what this is is just discipline and work. And I know people don't want to hear that, but it's it's so true to the process.

give me. And I've realized that as long as I make the effort to put myself in those environments that it just like speak to me for whatever reason, you know, sometimes like you hate them in September, but you love them in December or whatever. Like there's a lot of variables there. But if I feel like my schedule that I've laid out is like, man, I'm so excited to be there because I love it, you know, like western North Dakota, I'm so excited to be there because that

I just love that environment. The killing a big one is sort of secondary, like filling that tag sort of feel secondary. But I also end up filling a lot of tags when I'm in places I like, and so it kind of just puts me if I hunt, If I plan for that kind of hunt where I'm like, I know, I'll love being there, even if even if the deer just kicked my ass or it's covered in people, it seems to work out pretty well, and I just

enjoy it more. And so you kind of plus you can stomach the bad stuff coming in, you know, the weather, the other people.

through the adversity. All of that becomes easier when you have that fun of the experience fueling it, versus being out there obsessing over the one deer, or sessing over shooting a one to seventy, or obsessing what all the bad things are happening, and then just being miserable. If you're miserable out there, it's very hard to be able to suffer through the inevitable challenges.

in a lot of tournaments. I was talking to him one time and we were down on the Mississippi River fish in this tournament, and I said, I told him, I'm like, next week, a buddy and I are going up to the Lhamadu Chain and Alexandria just to fish for fun. And he looked at me and he's like,

don't you like catching big bass? And I was like, well, yeah, but I'm like I love the clear water up there, and I love the fact that I can sit fish all summer long and you just you don't catch You're not gonna catch six pounders there, but you're gonna catch

a ton of fish, and it's it's just fun. And I remember thinking like, man, it's weird to me to look at it that like his way, just as much as he was like it's weird for him to be doing this, and like to kind of illustrate that point a little further, like on the lake that we go to a lot, it's dominated by walleye fishermen. We have big smallies, we have nice large mouth but we have a lot of meat fishermen up there, and I know a lot of them very well. My wife's related to

half of them. I'll talk to those guys and they'll be like, yeah, I caught a twenty inch smally out on the rock bar today. It fought like crazy, jumping like crazy. It was so fun. And then they go right back to fishing for fourteen inch walleyes. On the bottom, and it's like, even though they're sitting there, going I enjoyed this more than the thing that I went out there to do. I'm going to do this thing that

I go out there to do. And I think we do that with deer hunting a lot where we're like, I'm gonna go sit the food plot because that's what you're supposed to do, Like you're not going to go still hunt the public land down the road. But the more that you kind of break out of that mold and just figure out what you like, the better off you are.

just especially when I quit drinking. I mean I always kind of was with hunting, but when I quit drinking, I started working out and just like looking at my life in a different way, just like holding myself accountable for things like if I if i'm you know today, I'm gonna run six miles, I'm going to go do that, Like I'm not gonna let myself even though it's going to be so hot, I just can't let myself not do that stuff and it and you know this is

I'm I'm starting to really become like a momentum guy. Like I think about momentum a lot in life. And so you think about you've had some bad streaks out there where you know, you have a couple of bad shots in a row or whatever, and you know how that feeds, like the negative thing feeds the negative thing, and it gets worse and worse. It sort of gets exponential. And it's it's easy to fall into that when things go wrong and you put a lot of pressure on yourself.

But the opposite is true too, like when you have good things going and you're like holding yourself accountable and your your momentum is going in the right way. Like just think about if your if your marriage is going really good or your job's going really good, like that's going to feed your marriage or vice versa. Or you know, like you're having a good time with your kids, you know they're crushing it at school or whatever. That just

feeds a better life. And so the more you lean into that momentum and you're like, I know, even though I don't want to run at all because it's one hundred percent humidity and it sucks outside, I know what it's going to do for me, and I'm going to hold myself accountable. I'm just gonna go do that. Like white tail hunting, dude, I'm going over to Wisconsin this weekend.

It's going to be miserable in the woods, but I just have a list of stuff that I have to do because I know it's gonna it's I know it's gonna make my hunting more fun and enjoyable, both with my daughters and for myself. I'd rather go fishing, you know, Like there are a lot of things I would rather do, honestly than go fight the mosquitoes and the deer flies

and the heat. But I just know that it'll be worth it, and I think that that's like that's been the difference maker for me, probably more than anything.

So when I write something down, I stick to it. When I write down a goal for the day, or when I write down the schedule for the day and say, I'm going to do my run today at this time, or I'm going to do this many miles, or I'm going to make sure I check off that thing off the list. If these things are just like in my head, it's like, oh, I want to do that, it seems very easy for me to not do it, or to

have some excuse or to have something come up. But for whatever reason, when I write it down, like Man, this Saturday, I'm doing this project in this project that works for me. Like that's been a tool for me that has helped me kind of build like a structure around my life that keeps me on track and doing the things that I know I need to do. Is there anything like that for you or any other idea?

for me. Mostly what changed is when I figured out, like, Okay, to actually do this to a little bit higher level, I have to do the not fun parts a lot more. You know, like you can't just go glass all summer long because that's a blast, Like you have to go hang those stands eventually, or like you got to put something else in there, right, And I think we look at hunting especially, you know, like the people listening is look at hunting and it's like that's like their thing

to go do. That's fun, right, Like that's like their passion, their hobby. It's like it's outside of work, it's outside of a lot of the bs of life. But that doesn't mean it doesn't require that discipline. So when you look at life and go I have no problem going hunting, but you know, I don't hang stands or I didn't cut the shooting lanes that well, if you have something outside of hunting that's keeping you disciplined, it's no secret.

I know people are sick of hearing this, but like it's no secret when you look at the Animes and the Zach Farrenbaus of the world, they're all in really good shape, you know what I mean, Like they're always they're working on themselves just as much as the hunting. They're taking something that's, to me, is way harder to be disciplined for, like going to the gym five days a week, or you know, rocking around the block or

however you have to do it. That sucks way more than going in the woods hanging a stand with your buddy, right, But it feeds that. And so we look at hunting as it's just sort of like purely this enjoyable activity, but it's it's a lot of type two fun out there, man, Like you're really going I have I have to do the not real fun parts of this to have a lot of fun later or to have a lot of fun whenever. And that getting into that group's hard.

you know, garbage in, garbage out, and vice versa. So right, So one last question on habit's, Tony, what is an unusual habit or practice that you know that you stick to that's important to you, but the other people find absurd, crazy, stupid? What's something like that.

You know how that is, Like you you're on the third watch of you know, third version of some you know film you made or whatever, where it's like mundane, tedious shit, and you're like, I, but I have to I have to read every word. I have to look, I have to listen, I have to watch and I I look at that kind of stuff and I go, I have to do that. But a reward for that is like I'm gonna sit down and play guitar for twenty minutes and change my mindset or you know, like

I love eating junk food. I hate that, I love it, but I love it. And so I look at like if I don't if I don't work out in a day, I'm like, I don't get that reward whatever whatever it is, right, like a bowl ice cream with the kids or something like that. And I know, I mean, this isn't probably like super crazy or quirky, but I I really try to view my life that way as like I got to clean the garage or organize this or just like this, this like a little bit of clutter that's been driving

me freaking crazy. I'm gonna just take care of it so I can go fish with my kids, or I can go walk out and hang a trail camera or something like, I can earn something else. And I feel like that's sort of how I look at white tail hunting. I know, Like I'll give you an example last year when I went to Oklahoma with Steve. I scouted my ass off down there for a couple days and it

was just pretty rough stuff. But you know how that is, Like you check off those spots and you're looking at on X and you're like, that place suck, this pond was dry. You just have to believe that the reward is gonna come when you walk into one of those places that's just hums and you're like there's tracks everywhere, there's a fresh rub there, there's per simons on the ground or something, and then everything else becomes secondary because

you earned it, you know. And it's like it's hard to do because once in a while like that, it's all stick, no carrot, you know, like there's no reward there. But when you view life like that, it tends to just sort of like find this balance and work out.

But then when you go out and do some of these other hunts where you have to do that in four days but also go find them in varying conditions and after driving ten hours and sleeping in a tent, it changes what you look at as hard work, you know. So it's like I think it's like highly individual, but you kind of just have to look at the stuff that you sort of dread and go, Okay, how can

I how do I make this more manage. Well, for me, if I if I'm in my truck and I'm halfway down to Oklahoma and I'm looking at the forecast, I'm like, Okay, it's going to be eighty five degrees tomorrow by eleven o'clock in the morning. I know that's going to suck. So how do I make it easier on myself? Well, I got a cooler full of body armor, a gatorader or whatever, ice cold, and I have a plan, and I go, I'm going to walk into this spot first, because I think this pond has got a lot of potential.

I'm going to walk in here. And then you start to go it's not I'm not giving myself a chance to sit there and think about how much this sucks, because I just checked this off the list and here's the next one, and one of them in this process is going to work for me, and so the hard work doesn't feel quite the same. And I think I think a lot of white tail hunters, you know, they

hear this, like you mentioned this. They hear about like, oh, well, it's you know, everybody works hard, and he may's out there working hard, but they don't understand what that means for him versus themselves. Like for a lot of people, it might be get one more stand up this year, or get one mobile setup that you can use to fill in the gaps when you're kind of season long stuff starts to get burned out. It doesn't have to be like a super hardcore burn yourself right to the

ground thing. It can just be like you yourself going, I'm here and I just want to be a little bit higher, like I want to do like a little bit more.

hunting as well. Right, not being overly worried about Zach or Andy or Tony, but just knowing, hey, man, this is what hard work was for me last year, and these are the outcomes. How can I take that up to the next step? This coming year, how can I work a little bit, how can I do the right thing a little bit more? And that's a useful way, I think.

make mistakes, you know. I think I think we look at it and go, I can't go in that way because they're gonna all know I'm there, or I can't try this style or do this thing I kind of want to do just for the hell of it, because I don't think it's gonna work, or you don't have the confidence in it, man, just giving yourself the chance to go make some mistakes and being like, well I tried it, Like I tried still hunting through my best betting area and I blew a bunch of deer out

and that kind of sucks. Or I had a blast doing it. But we look at it and go, we're too afraid because that big buck might get pushed out to the neighbors or something that I'm I'm not gonna try. I'm not gonna go sit on the ground on that point that he likes to walk out in I'm gonna wait for him to come by here because I have a tree stand. I get set up, I look at that stuff, and I go, if you if you're too scared to do that on your home ground, go hunt

somewhere else and try some stuff. Because when you start doing those kind of things like that, you're forced to in certain situations, like if you want to be successful over the road, you have to do things that you just wouldn't do at home, you know what I mean. Like you it's just a different approach. And you start doing that and having some good encounters, and you go, Okay,

I have a little bit more. I have another tool in my tool bag, and yeah, you might screw it up learning that process, but once you have that, you always have that option, you know. And it's it's not like you have to walk out there and always sit a tree stand, like you can go build a natural groundblone like try it out, or you know, like sneak into a spot that you're like, I'm probably gonna get busted.

Like remember when you and I were filming down in Iowa a couple of years ago, when we were down in the bottom of that ravine and the wind was blown right over the top, and you and I just like we looked at it totally different because you were like this, it's going to swirl like crazy, and was swirling like crazy in there. But in my head, I'm like, I'd try it just because what the hell Like, sometimes you try that stuff and you kill a big one,

you know. But it's I think a lot of people lock themselves in the mindset that there's like so much you can't do because you might bump a buck or you might like screw up your chances, and I think we lean way too far in that direction sometimes, and you just have to just allow yourself the chance to just have a little fun and try some stuff and understand that you'll probably screw up, but it's okay. Who cares that buck's not moving out?

expect like I would, I would be happy. And it's like, no, you wouldn't. Like there's a reason all of these rock stars keep killing themselves, Like there's a reason that you see, you know, movie stars get caught banging the nanny, Like there's a reason people they're they're not happy. They're still looking for something, you know. So I think I think mental toughness is like is one of those things where it's like, okay, are you happy with the decisions you're

making overall? Like when this situation came to you, are you happy with how you handle it or not? And if it's like you can start to get to the point where you're like that one doesn't bother me. My reaction there like or the way that we work through that, that feels pretty good, Like you're on the right path.

It's kind of like with the happiness thing. If you're like I am not happy with myself because I'm out of shape and whatever, it's like you might hate going to do that first five k run, you'll be a happier person for a certain amount of time afterwards, and you will look and go there is a key to leveling up, like being a little better than I was before this. And so I don't know, I don't know how to describe it. I don't know how to address mental toughness. I guess Mark, Well, So.

head case. You worry, you overthink you, you know, have those demons whatever, right, but you've you've found a way to harness that. You've found some kind of way to either quiet those voices or reason with those voices, or or temper that or redirect that energy. And that I think is encouraging for a lot of people because I think a lot of people just think they're stuck with whatever's going on here and that can't change. But I

think you are an example. I think there's many other examples of people that have been able to exercise that muscle or point that energy in a different direction. And I know you say you don't really know how you did it, but I gotta believe there's been something or some things that have helped you deal with the mental side of things. I mean, there's there's the constant second guessing that we have as decision makings and hunting. There's

the dealing with adversity when we're out there. There's the dealing with the man, this sucks moments or man I screw that up moments, or the oh i'm tired moments. Can you point to any things that have changed or worked for you to help do that?

But when you look at you know how unhappy people seem to be lately, and you know a lot of people struggle with anxiety and depression and a lot of different stuff, addiction, whatever. Those are all your problem, right, Like you can make them your wife's problem or your family's problem or whatever. But but the person who fixes those or who not necessarily even fixes them, but addresses them and tries to mitigate the negativity around them, that's

just on you. So the more you like, and it takes a while, especially for guys like you, got to grow up. You got to look past that ego a little bit and be like, man, this, there's nobody else who's gonna fix this. You can go pay two hundred bucks an hour and sit on the couch and spill your life secrets and that helps, and it's great. You know, you can go get on some meds. Great, but really, like you have to look at this and go, how

do how do I do this for myself? And so you know you you mentioned this when you hear people. Let's just use Andy May for an example. You know, Andy comes up on here all the time, and he's the best white tail hunter out there. Andy has not lived an easy life. I think people look at Andy

and they go, the dude just has it made. But when you spend time with Andy and you get to know him as a friend, you're like, man, And this happens with so many people, Like outwardly, we see this scissor reel of just like everybody's life so bad ass, and everybody makes so much money and that guy's got

a new boat and blah blah, his wife's hot whatever. Yeah, I guess right, most people are struggling, and there are things outside of your like your agency that you know, your boss or whatever like there there you might be in situations that suck, right, Like, there are things that there are people who can influence you in a horrible way, for sure, But a lot of what we deal with there's only like it's just our responsibility. And so you

see this. You know, we talked about this earlier with the white tail thing, like it's not my fault that the gun hunters kill all the the big bucks or it's not my fault that the DNR has the gun season open this time when I want to bowhunt the rut or the neighboring farmer has an awesome food plot and he brings in all the deer and I don't have any left, and like, no, it's up to you to figure it out, Like you can't change that shit, you know.

things that are not. Because any energy diverted to bitch about being a victim, to complaining about worrying about what other people control is energy taken away from the things that you actually can influence. And that realization and being able to separate those two things and clear yourself of that stuff that's out of your reach and out of your control is freeing. It is empowering and it is one of the best things I've ever incorporated into my life.

And I think it's a huge part of mental toughness is just learn, Like when you're out there on November tenth and even hunting for eleven straight days and it sucked and everything's going wrong, and you can sit there and point to all the reasons why this sucks or all the things that have gone wrong. But if you can just separate these says, Okay, man, I can't control what the deer do. I can't control what the neighbor did. I can't control the weather. So why am I sitting

here ruminating on those things? Why am I sitting here worrying about things? Why am I sitting here, you know, crying myself to sleep because of these things? No, just think about what can I do? What can I do to change the situation or to embrace the situation, or how can I make this more fun? How can I make this different? And that is.

have an impact on deer, no question. But in this particular situation, my buddy's like, he wants to hunt his land right there, and this is a place with tons of public land, and there's kind of like different pockets where you see a lot of deer in some places where you don't see very many. And I'm like, you know, it sucks that we have more wolves now, but we're also in a beautiful place where we have tens of

thousands of acres to hunt. And you go over there, and let's say you're going trout fishing, like we brook troutfish over there. A lot totally unrelated to deer hunting, really, other than these streams run through a lot of the public land, and a lot of times when I'm driving over there, I'll see a horse hayfield that has a bachelor group of you know, all different age classes. Good deer, good really goodyear especially for over there, and I go, man,

there's still like a great opportunity here. So there is this idea that the wolves are there and they're going to screw everything up, but you're literally looking at it not happening right now, you know what I mean. So it's like you're dwelling on something that hasn't happened yet, and it sure it could happen, like a whole pack of them could move in and things could get pretty rough. Then you get in your truck and you drive fifteen minutes away and you hunt public land somewhere where that

you know what I mean. Like, we always have an option to sort of not just pontificate on this like horrible negativity and be like, well, this is going to end it for me. And that's that's a thing that I have struggled with a lot.

a backup spot? So if the wolves show up here and it's you know, you're not getting a trail camera picture for three weeks of a deer because they went underground or they moved two miles away. Instead of being like, well, this sucks and now I can't hunt, can you just

do something else? You know, like can you go follow the dogs around for some grouse and that in that timber company land and then maybe you run across a big community scrape that you should return to or something like what can you do to mitigate that because you can't get rid of those wolves?

the decision making process. So when you are deciding where to hunt, Let's say it's the you know you're going to sleep and you're think about we're gonna hut the next morning, or it's the drive to wherever you're gonna hunt the next morning, or the drive out in the afternoon to go hunt in Afternoon's about whatever it is when you're trying to decide where do I hunt next? Can you talk me through that dialogue? Can you walk

me through your decision making process? You know, I'm less interested in like, oh, I want to hunt a rub or I want to hunt a food source, because it's this I'm more interested in, like all the whys and like what are all the variables you consider? How do you weigh these differ from things? What does that look like for you?

almost always have to travel to hunt, I don't. I just don't have much around my house to hunt, And so for me specifically, I'm I'm looking at like probably two to four days at a time, and so for me, it's like, how do I manage every sit in every potential scouting session to do things the way I need to?

And so for my decision making process, I've really learned I need backups to my backups that I believe in to some extent, right like where I'm like, I probably won't kill a big one here, but I'll probably see some deer or maybe I'll get clued into something, or who knows, maybe something will come in. But as long as I'm like working that plan and going, I believe I have these three spots to work with, this is the best one, second, best, third best. These are the

conditions today, tomorrow, the next day. Here's how I'm going to play this out, and I go, if this doesn't work, then I'm going to back off and try this. And I love I love feeling like I have that framework that's built through scouting, even if it's just E scouting. Sometimes I'm just going, I believe this plan will put me on there somewhere. So my decision making process is really like how do I make the most of however much time I have, That's what factors in more than anything.

You know, we've talked over the years about plenty of things You've screwed up on myself too, But today, in twenty twenty four, heading into the twenty twenty four deer hunting season, what would you say is the area that you feel like you are currently struggling with the most, and how have you tried to mitigate that, deal with that, get better at that handle that.

my spots. Like I'm always kind of like this will be good enough, this will get me somewhere, but just not not being like I have worked this farm or this chunk of public to like where I'm like, this

is I've got it. And maybe that's like a thing, you know, because I've been there in the past where I'm like, this is gonna happen, and then it just doesn't, and you're like, Okay, well, so maybe maybe it's actually a good thing for me to be at this spot because I have been there where I'm like, for for sure, I've got four days on the opener on this private place in Minnesota, like I'm going to fill this tag and then you don't. So sometimes it doesn't work out.

But I think that, like the thing that I struggle with the most is just that like I feel like and I don't know if that'll happen till I get out of this job or what, or get out of the industry, but I feel like I'm always just like a little bit like there's more I could do and I'm not doing it.

I can there. And I tell you, this is something that I think maybe maybe drives me the most nuts about a lot of those people who reach out about like the non resident resident thing is I'm like, man, if you have a home field advantage, like if you live close to where you're hunting, like you have such

an advantage. And I think I think we look we kind of sort of focus on well, there's lots of people at the trailhead or there's you know, like I found four stands in here, and it's like, yeah, you're you're looking at the negative side of this stuff, But are you are you trying to figure out where you have these advantages? You know? Like I've talked about this. A buddy of mine who I out count with from his house, he can see two over the counter units

in Colorado, they're right there. And he's a really good hunter, like he's really good. He's a good elk hunter. He almost always kills bulls on public land multiple states, knows a shit, But when you talk to him, he's gonna bitch about the non residence and I'm always like, ouch,

like that's me. But I'm like, even this guy who's like a very disciplined like he's he's doing just fine, but when you talk to him, he's like focusing on the negatives of lots of other people being there and lots of people in the back country, despite the fact that he goes out and kills usually a really good

bowl every year, let alone sometimes a raghorn whatever. And I'm like, your success is so consistent and so impressive, But when you like in your head you're looking at the negative side of things, It's just wild how we're wired for that.

best deer hunters you know. Is there one thing that's always true, because I know there's a lot of different things, right You and I have talked to a lot of different successful deer hunters, and many of them do things in wildly different ways. But there are some things that are always true. What would you think?

I'll go kill those later or whatever. They usually don't. But I think the people who are the best at this, they have a fundamental understanding of how to find and hunt all deer first, and then they can hone that down. And I'll tell you, dude, like, one of the things that I think has opened up my world so much more and really help me hunt is I give myself permission a lot of times to just hunt deer. Sometimes

I do it at home. Sometimes I do it on the road a lot, but I think we have this sort of tunnel with mature bucks or whatever age class we want to get to, and we jump there pretty early, and maybe we can do that on Grandma's farm pretty well because we have the time. But then you bring that to your first over the road trip and you struggle bad, or you bring that kind of mindset on

an el khunt or whatever and you struggle bad. I think you have to understand that there's a lot of situations where it's like, even if it's the first two days of your hunt, you have to figure out how to hunt deer first and find them. And this becomes something like when you go and you've done this, when you go to the Big Woods and you're used to a place with a pretty high deer density, you don't

have a choice. You're like, I have to just like find some level of concentration of deer first and hunt them. But then you take somebody who's like born and raised in Iowa. They take it for granted that they're around deer all the time, but they might not really learn how to figure out deer beyond sitting like a destination food source or something kind of easy that that really

helps you learn those animals. And so I think that's like, I think that's like a super important thing that a lot of people miss.

it's the Lowell, it's whatever, dude. I just think that people set themselves back so much with that mindset of being like, well, if Marjory doesn't go in until November fifth, here, I probably should neither. It's like, man, you're probably not hunting Mark Jury's stuff, right, Like, it's probably not yeah, commensurate to like you. And the more that you just go out and figure out that that stuff's kind of bs like you can find dear anywhere, it'll force you

to do something different. You can't just go ride out a funnel all day when it's October fifth, right, Or you can't just go sit, you know, downwind of a betting area when it's September fifteenth, Like, you have to figure out how to make that stuff work and go as much as possible instead of being like, here's my excuse to not hunt, and I'm being a good hunter by not hunting.

to keep that high dollar thing. A different way of looking at this could be like I'm gonna let you spend a lot of money on one thing. What would be that one thing?

a question for me. I think it would be like high end close just for what they they the sheer amount of hours extra hours they allow me to spend out there where the deer are.

you want to leave folks with. If if this is your last chance to say something to that audience, our audience, what would you put on that billboard.

it could mean different things. I think patience is universal, Like I think a lot of hunters are just not patient enough and you know, you think about how often when you sit an extra hour, or you go out an extra two hours early, or you do the all days sits like how often just being like I'm not leaving yet, or I'm not going to give myself a chance to leave. I'm just like I'm going to just wait them out because I did, I did the work right, like I found the spot, I found the train trap whatever.

Then it's just a matter of like being patient. So I think I would put like patience kills deer or big bucks like whatever.

something along the way. So thank you, and until next time, stay Wired to hun.