Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the whitetail woods presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, we are discussing how to make a living in a conservation related field, as well as advice for how to be a more effective volunteer, conservationist and advocate. I'm joined by Chris Bergotti from back Country Hunters and
Anglers and Matt Ross of the National Dear Association. All Right, welcome back to another episode of the Wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their Camel for Conservation initiative, which is quite relevant to our discussion today because Camel for Conservation is a that benefits the National Deer Association. Every purchase of first Light's spector cameo pattern, so it could be their source jacket, it could be one of their base layers, could be a hat, whatever
it is inspector portion of that sale. The proceeds go to the National Deer Association and a member and a staff member over at the NBA is with us today as well as another person from another great conservation organization, BHA. They're with me today to discuss two different ways that you can work for wildlife, two different ways that you can give back to the natural world and the resources that we as hunters and anglers and outdoors people, you know,
that we enjoy so much. It's Earth Week, right, Monday was Earth Day, So I know a lot of people are taking a little extra time this week just to think about how can we give back to Planet Earth. How do we take care of these resources that you know, we enjoy so much, And so it seemed like now would be a good time for us to do that too. So the plan, as I alluded to in the introduction, is to talk through these two different things.
Right.
Number one, what if you want to make a living in this world, how can you go about being a professional conservationist? This is a question I get quite a lot. People are curious, you know, how do I get into this line of work? How can I get a job where I'm in some way giving back in some way doing something good for the environment, for wildlife or hunting and fishing. It's a tough question to answer in a quick email or an Instagram message. So I'm glad that we finally found a way to do this in a
long form kind of format. So we're going to discuss the pros and cons of working professionally in conservation. We're going to hear from our two guests and hear about their own personal stories and how they landed the jobs they're in, and the winding path they took throughout their careers. We'll talk about I think I mentioned pros and cons, but we will talk about the drawbacks and some of the considerations that you need to think about if you
decide to pursue this line of work. And then we also talk about like how to get a job like this, Like what are the most important things to do? What are the ways to open up opportunities that you might be able to make a living doing good things for wildlife and wild places. So that's part one of this chat, and then part two of the chat is, Hey, what
if I don't want to change my job. What if you want to keep on doing whatever it is with your career, but you still want to find a way to be a more effective conservationist in your free time?
How could you do that? What kind of things can make you a more effective advocate, What kinds of things can help you make more of a positive difference on your nights or weekends, spare time here and there, That and much much more is what we chat about today with my guests Chris Borgatti, who is the Eastern Policy and Conservation manager for Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and Matt Ross, the director of Conservation for the National Dear Association.
And we already recorded the chat, so.
I'm coming off of that right now, and I'm gonna give you a teaser, I guess, and tell you that I came out of this one energized, rejuvenated, pumped up, and excited to keep doing this kind of work and to try to do even more of it. You'll hear from all three of us here that this kind of pursuit, whether you do it professionally or you know, as a side things, as a volunteer, you know, just part of your weekends or nights or whatever it is, doing this kind of thing fills the cup.
Right.
There's a lot of things in life that drain you, right. There's a lot of things that can wear you down. There's a lot of things that can take the energy out of you. Take that kind of suck your soul, right. I think all of us have done things like that and giving back to the natural world, especially if you can be out there and enjoying it at the same time. Man, that just builds you. It just brings so much light
and energy back into your life. So I can't recommend it enough, and I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did. It's Earth Week.
Let's celebrate it. Man.
We are the luckiest folks in the world. The fact that we have so much open space still here in North America, the fact that we can still hunt, the fact that we can still fish, that there's clean water, that there's clean air, that they're pretty abundant wild species across big parts of this country still like that is not the case everywhere. That was not always the case here.
We've had some ups and downs in the history of America, and we got to make sure that we keep it going up and do not let it slide down, because this is just too damn important. It's too good. The things that we can go and share with our kids, the things that our grandkids could experience someday, the things that you and I could take off this weekend and see firsthand is stuff out of a fairy tale For
some people in different parts of the country. These are things that you know, we're living the dream in many ways, and I try to pinch myself and remind myself of that as often as possible. We can't take it for granted. We got to take care of this beautiful planet and the wild creatures that live on it, because man, they have given us so so much.
So with all that said, I.
Hope you guys enjoyed this one. I'm excited. Let's get to work. Here we go, all right, joining me now on the show. I've got two great guys, great conservationists, and I think perfect guests for our topic today, Matt Ross and Chris Borgotti. Thank you, gentlemen for being here.
Great to be here.
Likewise, Yeah, appreciate it. Mark.
I know you're both busy. I know you're both jet setting from place to place it seems like all the time, so you know, making time to have this kind of conversation, especially Chris, I know you're at a hotel room right now in the middle of a convention. Not easy to do, so I want to be respectful of your time time and just jump right into the meat of our topic
today in this week, which is working for wildlife. And I mean that in a slightly larger more holistic way than maybe I've talked in using that term in the past, because you know, anyone listening and you guys too, both know about the Working for Wildlife tour. But I want to talk a little bit about what it means to work for wildlife just on a day to day basis in their own individual lives. I think there's probably two
ways people could go about doing this. There's one way, which is, you know, being a volunteer, being an advocate, finding different ways in your own personal life, in your kind of side time, your extra time to in some way help out wildlife or wild places or a species that you particularly care about, public land, whatever it is.
But then, one thing we've not really talked much about on this show, but I think a lot of people are curious about, is how to do that professionally, which is something both of you guys do you have found a way to make a living doing good things for the natural world. Raise your hand, Well, that's not a good way. I was gonna tell you to raise your hands but people listening would not be able to see
that there are some people watching. But I was going to ask you, you know, do either one of you get emails the way I do about people asking like how do I get into constant conservation work professionally? Are there jobs like that? How could I make a living do this kind of thing? How did you get into it? I got to believe you two have got those types of requests too.
Right, Yeah, absolutely, I mean I get a decent amount of them. I'm sure Christo's as well. And I'd say there's more that are coming from people that are in a career already that are thinking about kind of reverting. But I get a fair amount of students that reply or not just me to our organization of how do you know how do I get a job with you?
Guys that you know that they're in school. But I'd say the line share is coming from a person that is maybe younger, but in a career and wanting to want to change a career path.
Yeah, what about you, Chris?
Yeah?
For me, it's I would say mostly people who've already who are already an established career. I think in part they're interested because that's sort of what I did, but also people kind of transitioning naturally. I've had Actually, when I was at Rondezvous this past week, I had a number of individuals who were coming out of military service asking me about, you know, how do you get involved
in conservation professionally? Actually, though, yesterday at this conference, I had a luncheon with current graduate students and I was honestly quite surprised given that a lot of the people at this conference were professional science professionals working agencies and things like that. But several people, several of the students asked me about working in an NGO and what that's like, and and uh, you know, public or like a federal
or state agency versus a nonprofit. So there's definitely you know, there's definitely people who are interested.
When you get that question, Chris, and they're they're kind of curious about it. Do you encourage them or do you warn them off?
Uh? I don't. I'm honest.
I'm very honest with the pros and the cons and and one of the things questions I kind of put back onto them is you know.
What what are you looking for?
And what is the balance of things that you value in terms of work? Life, personal life is it? Are you a passionate outdoors person who thinks this is going to allow you to hunt more?
Uh?
You know, with questions like that, and I think and their responses, I can kind of give them a little bit more tailored response. And but again I'm pretty honest about it. It's not always glamorous. It's it can it can be a grind, just like any job.
There's but there, you know, there are different buckets, as you're kind of alluding to, Mark. You know, there is the nonprofit or NGO world, which we both work in, Chris and I.
Uh.
There is agency work, state or federal. There's there's the private sector, you know, private consulting. There's advocacy work and advocacy groups. Uh, there's resource managers, which kind of like overlaps a different of the you know, different categories, and it does really you know, they all have benefits and drawbacks and I find a lot of joy I really thought I was going one direction early in my career, more to like an agency person.
Uh, and I did.
I worked at you know, seasonal work for a state agency for in wildlife, but I ended up in the nonprofit world. Uh. And I wouldn't have expected that early in my career. But I'm really I've been here a long time. I'm really pleased with it. And I think one of the things that we both do our organizations, our parent organizations is strong on grassroots, you know, community based work, and it's all and we also do strong educational campaigns and then there's all those other categories that
fall under it. And so it's just it's working with people. And if you were a private in the private sector, you're you're working with the resource and your outdoors a lot. If you're with agencies, you're also managing the resource or populations and you work for the people. But it can be a very adversarial kind of relationship with people. Sometimes
it's unfortunate. But we have the great fortune of being looked as we say the same message as all those other people and those groups we're right in step with, you know, ecological health and you know population balance and and and habitat and all of the things that we all talk about. But for whatever reason, the people in NGOs tend to be held a little bit higher on a pedestal from a trust factor, and you know, almost
like a heroic type thing, which I don't know. Maybe it's my ego and that's why I've been here for nearly twenty years. But yeah, I mean there are those different categories, but there's drawbacks too, as Chris said, and I don't know if your podcast wants to be about
that today, what are all the drawbacks? But there are these different buckets that you can work in and they all have really there's there's a benefit to it to the person, but they also have a purpose for you know, each of those jobs can really mean a lot for the resource.
If you like being alone.
Outside a lot, you don't like working with people, you might go one path, you know.
So that's that's what I think about it.
Yeah, I do want to get into some of those pros and cons and different you know, recommended paths based on what you're trying to get out of it. But maybe the best way to get into that would just be to look at your own personal examples of how you picked your path and where it took you, at least as a starting point. You could you maybe kick it off, Matt with with what your journey looked like.
I mean, did you know from the time you were in high school that this is what you wanted to do, or if not, how did this whole thing get kicked off? Then how did you get to where you are now?
I did know from a very early age that I wanted to work in an outdoor sector, specifically deer, and you know, I work for the National Deer Association. So when I look back at my journey, I'm very proud of myself, which is a good thing for anybody to feel.
But that was because I grew up in a family that deer hunted, and I belonged to like a sports you know, rotten gun club with my dad and uncles and was around that, and so from high school, you know, later in high school, I was really interested in how I could make that happen. And one of my relatives was friends with somebody that worked for the our state
Wildlife Agency. And I live in the state New York up kind of in the hills of the Adirondecks, and one of the wildlife biologists, regional biologists, was friends with my uncle, and so I talked to him about what I would need to do to kind of work with deer, and that set me off on a path of looking at schools that had degrees in wildlife and I went to college in Massachusetts Chris for wildlife biology, got a degree, and then I actually for a bachelor's and went back
home and started working as a seasonal wildlife technician for three or four years doing game and non game work. I did some pretty cool stuff work with peregrin falcons and owls, and a lot of deer work and habitat work, and then decided I need to go back to grad school.
Just from the path that I was thinking, I was going to go into a role that needed a master's degree and got my masters in wildlife again, the whole time thinking I was going to work and not go to get a PhD, but work in some resource manager's role. Got a master's working with deer in New Hampshire, which was an awesome experience. And before I was even done with school, I got a job working for a private wildlife and forestry consulting company in New England and that
was amazing. I really I missed parts of that job.
Honestly. On a day to day.
I would go out just I worked for a guy that owned the company and there was a small crew of us, but on a day to day it was just me and my chocolate lab in my pickup truck. You know, a guy in his twenties mark and timber, putting paint entrees, work, talking to loggers, talking to landowners, making prescriptions of what to do. So I was out there managing habitat for several years, got my license in forestry, and I was introduced to the NGO world as a
volunteer as a member. So, and you know, I knew about several of the groups from a deer side, though I didn't know there was a deer group out there, you know, being a Northeasterner. There are some other deer groups that I think have been around as long or longer than NDA in the Midwest, but I just didn't know of them. And so at the time our organization was growing. Quality Deer Management Association was the name back then, and I joined when I was my last year in
grad school. Became a member, started getting the magazine, started a local chapter we call them branches. I was an officer, so I did the volunteer thing, still do. Actually we have a local group, and eventually I saw a lot of value. And I can get into this deeper if you're interested. But I saw a lot of value in the NGO side and applied for a job and got it in two thousand and six. So I had done the net the outside, you know, working on habitat for six years, and then got a job with then QDMA.
And it's been coming up eighteen years the spring that I and I've served in various roles, worked with our volunteers in the Northeast.
That was my job.
Initially, I was a regional director and then moved into our conservation department. I ran our conservation services and training program called dear Steward and developed a program for land certification and anyway, you know here I am all these years later, but so that that's my journey in a five minute snippet.
Yeah, and I feel like you've got like the kind of the more traditional path I think, in which you knew from an early age, you got an education, specifically wildlife based, you went and became a practitioner on the ground, and then have moved into like a more managerial role of sorts. I guess maybe manager might be the wrong word, but but you know, I see something different with Chris from what I know about Chris's background. Can you tell us about your path to this point.
Chris, Sure, mine is very different.
So I yeah, I was in college as a double major environmental science and geography. I sort of thought I would be going into sort of the environmental field in
some way, and that's what I did. I started my career as a environmental engineer and was doing all sorts of projects for large wastewater type of projects for large basically most of our clients were large corporations, and doing that work, you know, it was it was really good in terms of the paycheck, but I found that my clients were oftentimes not necessarily sharing the same values I had in terms of the environment, and they were just
basically trying to be compliant. And so I kind of had this man, I just I wasn't sure that this was the place for me. And to be honest, I took that job because of the paycheck, and I kind of figured that that is what I'm supposed to do. You know, I've been you know, I've done great in school, have done great in sports, Like this is like you're supposed to achieve and this is sort of a value.
And it just occurred to me that no, like I have to have a better impact on the world around me, and so I stepped away from that became a trout bum for a short period of time. I'd like to like to say that I'm completely recovered. If anybody completely recovers, Yeah, well, I've mostly been able to satisfy that by checking flies at saltwater fish a lot. But anyways, before graduate school,
someone I was planning on applying to graduate school. There may have been a little bit of an intervention there to kind of encouraged me along the way. And I was going to get there, but you know, I had money in the bank and fish to catch, so I I basically someone suggested, Hey, you should go teach at a at an urban school, and you know, teach a year before graduate school make a difference. And I thought
that sounded like actually a good idea. And you know, back in those days there's actual newspapers when employment sections and opened up. The newspaper found a science teaching job in Boston, called it up and the principal answered the phone and said, you know, very sorry, the position has been filled. And I asked her if we could do an informational interview because I didn't know anything about schools, didn't know anything about teaching she agreed. I came in
and we hit it off right away. I was asking her about her students and the community and the curriculum, and she just stopped mid sentence and said, hey, if I can, if I could offer you this job, or you take it. And I thought to myself, well, yeah sure, and she said, excuse me. She got up went into her secretary's office. I overheard a conversation and the person on the outer line she was talking to she said, I think I've made a mistake or I've made a mistake.
The position's no longer available. And that is when I became a teacher. And that was a nearly two decade period of time I was a teacher in that time. I worked at that school for a couple of years, went to graduate school at Boston College, and found my way out of prep school north of Boston, and worked there for about seventeen years. And it was actually a student's question in my class, one of my environmental science class classes.
He asked if we.
Could talk about hunting and an upcoming unit on food and food systems and food and food systems, a topic that I worked on as an undergrad and I was sort of saving it from when I was going to return after paternity leave. It was right before I went on leave, and I told him, hey, you know, I don't know very much about hunting. I do some research
and I will incorporate it when I get back. And I picked up a number of books and you know, started doing some research in that little, you know night when I'm taking care of the baby and all that kind of thing. And it wasn't long before I came to the question, why am I not doing this? Why am I not hunting. I've been fishing my entire life. I'm in the outdoors and in all these places. I'm
concerned about where my food comes from. And without having any people in my family that really hunts other than a younger cousin, I called them up. I said, I'm taking hunter safety and then to come down to Virginia and you're gonna teach me what you know.
And that's where it started.
And you know, in that process, I discovered backcountry hunters and anglers and got attended a couple events. Next thing I know, I'm helping out with the Massachusetts State Leadership team. And then a year or two after that, I joined the New England Board became increasingly involved in policy and and that kind of work, and with some really rapid growth in the chapter HQ, I need to get a
full time staffer in the Northeast, the chapter coordinator. This is around the period of COVID when teaching was not exactly a great time when you're remote and all that kind of stuff, And I just thought, you know what, I'm passionate about this. I want to continue to make a difference. This satisfies that, and applied and was offered the job. And I've been doing that for a couple
of years now, and this a few months ago. I was promoted to Eastern Policy Manager and so a little shift in my day to day.
But yeah, that's the quick version of how I ended up here.
That's awesome, Chris, super courageous, and I find like depths of inspiration here in stories like yours. I mean, really just kind of amazing. And there's more folks out there just like you, and they should take that leap.
I mean, that is awesome.
Yeah, And to be honest, I had a lot of people not just asking me about making a you know, mid I guess I'm in mid life, so they tell me. I still feel still feel pretty pretty young. A lot of people outside the conservation space, just former colleagues of mine, friends of mine, when they heard of me making a pretty dramatic change career wise, they wanted to talk about it.
They wanted to know how like the courage to do it, and of course, like I had support, I had support from my wife, I had you know, I was fortunate to be in a position where I could take that leap. And yeah, and to be honest, I'm really glad I did.
Uh talk to me a little bit about your decision making process and motivations other than like you felt drawn to do it. But I got to believe your old job had a steady, very reliable paycheck. You had history there. You you know, you knew what you had been doing, you knew what it was gonna look like moving forward. You worked at a very you know, really nice prep school, seemed you know, kind of glamorous within that world maybe a little bit. And now you're gonna take off work
for an upstart conservation organization. I don't know for sure, but just from what I know about NNGO is usually it's less pay. Uh you know, why why would someone do that?
Yeah?
Uh? I get that, get that question a lot, and yeah, it in terms of if you had asked me five years ago, would I be doing working conservation, I'd say no. I totally planned on retiring as an educator at this school. I could not have worked at a better school. It was phenomenal, you know, as someone who's coming from a
science background. They allowed me to continue to do professional development, to go to graduate school, to take courses, and I was able to do climate change research in the art Arctic. I was tagging sharks in Monterey, California. Like those were my professional development experiences. It was a great place to be.
But you know, I just, you know, after sort of immersing myself in them in this space, I recognized that that I could make an impact and I had this, I had this opportunity to do it, and you know, in life, you don't get many of those opportunities.
So Yeah, while there was certainly a little.
Bit of a decrease in benefits for sure, you know, salary, the fact that I could have had my boys go to that school tuition free, things of that nature, I just I just felt like this was something that I that I wanted to do and.
It was sort of like a fresh fresh start.
And and like I said in the beginning, when I had that initial career change, like it was really when I came to that realization that I couldn't just do a job, that I had to be able to have an impact on the world around me and the things that are important to me. You know, that was something that I really reflected upon. And yeah, and that was always something when my students would always ask me at the last you know, especially my seniors.
My seniors would ask.
Me about you know, the the the you know, any parting words or advice, and I was I always told them, like, I blow them off, and like, I'm not.
Giving you guys advice. Do you guys can figure it out. That's part of life.
But one of I really got pinned down one time by some students and I'm like, all right, I'll give you a couple And one of those things was to to to take a career where you can make a positive impact. And so many of my students were really interested in what I was interested in graduating college, which was you know, having making that you know, having that big career and and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was an opportunity to do that. It was an
opportunity to continue to have an impact. And yeah, so, like I said, I took the jump.
I think that I think that job satisfaction thing is a huge part of well, I mean, it's starting at the volunteer level all the way up to like careers like you're talking about, Chris and Mark wants us to kind of dive into is. I mean, I think one of the reasons I've stuck with it for so long is I do feel like I make a difference and I can see it. It's tangible, and uh, no matter what level you're working on, I've always kind of tried
to elevate that. Each time I've had a promotion or a decision to jump into a career like I did, the same thing trickles down all the way down to the volunteer because they feel like they're making a difference than they are. And one of the things I think I heard this actually on one of the trivia meat Eater trivia's is the highest job satisfaction out there is like foresters, you know, they feel like they make a
difference because they're outdoors. It's obviously a little stress doing that you're just hanging out with trees, but you can see change. You can see it. It's tangible, and that relates to any job.
And if you're.
Dissatisfied with work, it's really hard to justify that paycheck.
Yeah.
So one of the upsides then of making your career revolving some way around conservation is that there's this real sense of satisfaction and fulfillment and purpose. And I would say that's something that I felt in my work on What are some of the other things on the positive side of the career choices you've made that are worth highlighting?
Anything else other than other than impact in the way you've discussed it, Is there anything else like when you look back in your career choice that you're like, man, this is this definitely goes in the pro's column that someone listening maybe hasn't thought about.
Man, There's so many things that fall under make a difference. You know, they're all like subcategories.
I feel like.
Being able to work in a community that is like minded is a positive. You know, you get you get energy from like minded souls, people that work for the organization that I'm employed by, but others that that is a huge positive it's like a daily dose of adrenaline, you know, to feel that motivation. You know, from a deer hunting deer management things have changed. I'm in my later forties. It's a pretty different world out there, in
good and bad. You know, there's some from at a population level, and that's one of the things I really enjoy about my job is working at a national level, running national conservation programs and seeing change changes in the actual population of hunters. How that's changing, good and bad. You know, we're losing hunters, but seeing a different demographic pick it up, seeing deer heard health change. But then there's the negative to the CWD issue that we all
know about. And so I feel like one of the things that I have high again job satisfaction is is I'm in the mix. You know, the company I work for is in the mix, and I'm right there at the table about talking about those at a national scale. And if I worked for myself or worked in the private sector, I'd be in a couple counties. Or if I work for state agency and I was the state's deer biologists, i would work at a state level. But I really like talking about things at a national, national scope.
So that's one thing that comes to mind too from a positive.
What about you, Chris, Yeah, I would agree with matt first point. I think one of the most.
One of the best parts of it are working with the people like our grassroots chapter level, our chapters, our chapter leaders, just our members who are active. It is such an awesome community and there are so many talented people that give so much of their time and resources to to get us to a point where we have
more opportunity, where we have more access. And so that community aspect I think is really important and it makes my job now as as a policy person to be able to tap into that that advocate network of people from around the country. And you know when when you're in you know, in some grinding political battles, maybe some legislation that that is very you know, it's just if you're dealing with some really tough rhetoric around from animal rights group and it's just yeah, it's a battle.
You know.
Having just come from our rendezvous, it was such a big pick.
Me up, you know, just to be around that those people. The enthusiasm, the energy.
The commitment to make a difference that I think is it's probably the greatest positive because you know, I think Matt is as well, like we're we are. We're remote workers most of the time, and our office is in Missoula, Montana, but I'm the time sitting in my office in Massachusetts. So when you are able to connect with not just your colleagues, but the people your membership, I think that that's one of the one of the best best parts.
I'll add to that mark before you shift to probably the negatives is one thing that I was thinking about, and I mentioned this earlier, you know, being viewed differently from the outside. The NGO community is viewed differently, almost like heroic, right, as I said, And that's probably silly to say. But we in our field of where Chris and I we connect a couple things. We are all science based, right, we are involved in policy. All the NGOs advocate for good things that are happening and oppose
things that are bad. But we take that responsibility the NGO world. And I'm just talking from first person. I mean, I only worked for a few years in an agency setting, and I'm sure I would find a lot of positives if I had done that for seventeen or eighteen years. But one thing I really enjoy is being the conduit of information, the educator, the driver of motivation, not just me, but like the people that are that are in our
field Chris and mis field. Is taking and packaging things that are hard to either read because it's deep in science, you know, scientific literature, and turning it into more of a layman's term so that people can understand it, or from a policy end, telling people how to act, not in the truest sense, but give them the package and say this is why this is bad or this is why this is good, and try to motivate them to
act on that. That is also that responsibility in the role that NGOs serve is also deeply satisfying because that is the making the difference. It's not only making the difference, but it's also the community aspect that we talked about.
Where you're marrying those two. You have a community that trusts you and listens, and you can get them to take good action to make a difference for whatever species you're you're you know, concentrating on For us, it's deer, and there are other groups that you know, focus on turkeys and ducks and others. Or if it's just public land management or you know, whatever the umbrella is that the organization oversees, you funnel that energy and you can point it like a bow or a gun towards the
bad and motivate people to take take action. Which that is one of the things I love about sitting at this desk every day, honestly, is I do work from the field, but sitting down there are there's a lot of pleasure in knowing that that difference is going to happen because that responsibility is on us.
Yeah.
Yeah, And I would add that we occupy like a really we're really lucky that we occupy in a kind of a unique niche in the greater sort of hunting and fishing space. Like we're we're kind of like industry adjacent, right, We're not.
We're not necessarily.
Part of the industry where we're not necessarily part of the agencies, the state or federal agencies.
So what we have the great.
Opportunity to do is to represent the stakeholders who are in the middle of that and and like you said, Matt, like to sort of represent, to help support, to direct, to empower, and to elevate the voice of that of the stakeholders, the actual hunters and anglers.
You. So you mentioned something there Matt a second ago about just that energy you know that you have there that you can harness, and it just got me thinking about another part of this part of my of my role that gives me so much energy, And it's the fact that this kind of work because of those types of impacts that you guys are talking about, because of the downstream effects that we can help bring to life. It's just personally so like intellectually stimulating and internally motivating.
And I think that's a huge positive too. Like when I wake up in the morning and I know that what I'm going to be working on today has the potential to make that difference, Like what I'm going to be working on today like lights of fire in my belly, and I'm excited to get to the computer and start writing about this thing, or I'm excited to fly to wherever and work on this project because like I know it's going to make a difference, and I know there's
gonna be other people that'll be influenced by and that will, you know, join me in this thing, and like all of that creates like a cycle of positivity and like your own you know, in your daily life that I know from my previous work I've done, you don't have that, even when you've got a great salary and maybe it's challenging work and fun people, when there's not that sense of like, well, I guess it all comes back to
impact and purpose and what you're doing. But when you have that, it lights like a there's something different going on in your body and your mind. When you know that that's what you're working towards, that I think shines a totally different light on everything you do throughout the day.
So all three of us are parents, right, and so you know we we hold that responsibility as a parent deer and you know, try to embody and teach and it's not the same thing as being a parent, but I'm just you know, using that as a metaphor, that is part of it. I mean, I do feel like with the wave of a wand especially you Mark, I mean you guys have a megaphone in terms of how to people listen and are influenced by your brand, it's
the same, it's the same thing. It's just use that power for good and get that army moving in the right direction. And when you see it happen, and it's tangible and you see see action happen, or you see regulation or legislation be shot down. Man, how how good does that feel? And it's an endless bucket of responsibility because there's always going to be those challenges and unfortunately they become more complicated as we go forward, just with
the way the world is. And maybe it wasn't like that, and you know our parents' day, they felt like things were complicated then. But I mean all of the layers of complexity with conservation man and wildlife management and habitat and threats to those things, threats through policy and threats through actual environmental threats. It is intellectually stimulating. I mean, I do feel satisfied from that side of it too.
You know I didn't mention that earlier, but you're just saying that just the challenge, the puzzle that it creates is a fun puzzle to tackle and you feel good about.
It, yeah, one hundred percent. But there It's not all rainbows and butterflies all the time, though, is it?
Like?
There's there are some inevitable, less sexy parts of this line of work, and it all varies depending on the specific role you have, of course, but I would assume that if someone comes to you and is asking you, like, how do I get into this stuff? I'm sure you're going to tell them all the things that we just discussed, But then maybe there's gonna be some words of caution too.
What might some of those things be? Uh, Matt, if you were giving some thoughts to that eager beaver wanting to get into this world.
Well, that's a that's a slippery slope, right, and let me try to think about how.
You know, there's the positives far far outweigh the negatives.
But it isn't all uh standing on a stage giving a plenary or standing in the weeds and pulling you know, you know, pulling a bunch of people behind you to cut trees or spray things. You know, a lot of a lot of the work that we do is administrative. I mean that's you have to enjoy that and also be proficient at it. A lot of it is not as fast as it seems that your phone tells you that it happens.
I mean, I'm.
Working on projects that are three years deep that have not really moved that much, but I'm still pushing on it. And you know, from the viewers stand point. If you're on social media and you're watching the results of something or a call to action, and you see the next one the fifteen seconds later and the next one fifteen seconds later, it feels.
Like it's it is.
All in that kind of name of all good. But sometimes you have to have persistence and dedication and rely on your colleagues. So those are things that come to my mind. Is that the amount of administrative work. I mean, I think this is going to be true. There's all these memes out there about if you become a biologist or a conservationist, and what your mom thinks and what your friends think.
You know, when I was in school in college, I had a bunch of roommates.
I went to UMass Chris, and a bunch of my buddies would tease me because none of them were in wildlife, and so they'd say, you know, how a.
Deer counting one oh one today?
When I get back to our environment, I'd be like, that is you know, that is not exactly what what we do.
It's it's a dropping count, guys, I'm counting deer droppings.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was my master's degree. So you know, the amount of an administrative work to to get these programs to occur.
There is a lot of like non sexy side of it.
Yeah, Chris, uh, your stuff's nothing but glamour, right, oh yeah.
All the time, you know, big wrapped truck and all that kind of stuff. Far from far from far from the reality, you know. For one of my as, I've transitioned from a chapter coordinator to a policy manager and I am more intimately involved with some of the legislative and regulatory battles around around the country.
They're not all battles, I suld. I should I should mention there's a lot of.
Great people doing some good policy work out there that you know that that can be solved through you know, pretty light bipartisan lifting. But there's a lot of stuff that isn't And a lot of stuff these days are extremely polarized and contentious, and when you're in some of these battles or and you know, strategizing talking to lawmakers, you tend to get you sometimes get take take some flack and and that can be you know, that is something that can be I haven't. I'm getting better at
letting a lot of that stuff slide off. Like when when when a leader of an animal rights organization calls me an extremist or a liar. I mean, I can let that slide. I can let that slide. But you know it is uh, you know, being around and being in some of some of these uh negative environments. Can you know, that's not necessarily a fun part. It's not like working with our chapters executing a conservation project or
stewardship project. You know, they take those types of things take more of a toll, and you of course, like Matt said, there's definitely the administrative stuff as well that we have to do. But but yeah, so there's there's definitely that aspect and and you know the other the
other thing. Even though we're working with especially Matt and I are, like working with state agencies, very often we come in contact with a lot of people who work for these agencies that even though they're they're in the wildlife, fish and Wildlife agency, they might not have a really strong connection to hunting or fishing at all, and they've had very little contact with the stakeholders, and not all
that contact might have been positive. You know, they they're fielding complaints there's not enough deer or you know, you know, why didn't you do a cut in this field like you've done in the last for the last however many years. So I think oftentimes we have to spend a lot of time and energy at uh at building bridges and building relationships. Not that that's a bad thing, it's a
great thing. But you know, sometimes we're unpacking the or dealing with problems that we're kind of left left for us, and you know that that takes time, and it takes you know, building that relationship, building trust. So yeah, we're that's that's just you know, comes with the job.
I suppose I'll elaborate on that too. And Chris said something that kind of peaked something in the back of my mind. As you know, we are member based organizations from the NGO side, and we have volunteers, and we talked about all the positive and that again far far far out weighs of the negatives. But when working with people and communities, you almost need a second degree in psychology, you know, to work with volunteers and figure out, you know,
where there are always going to be differences. People's motivation to volunteer are different, their purpose is different. Some people might want to work more with youth versus you know, bringing out non traditional audiences to learn to hunt or the habitat you know, or stewardship or habitat recommendations might might be contradictory from one person's pursuit to another, between
organizations or even within an organization. And so when you're working with volunteers, and I did this for several years in the beginning when I was one of our regional directors working with the chapters or branches, that that being a good you know, being a people person and reading people and being able to navigate those discussions is part of the job. You know, just like having any good relationship with friends or kids or a spouse, you know
you're going to run bumps into the road. And when you have those bumps, you got to figure out how to navigate around them. And they happen pretty often with when you work with people. And that may be a legislator versus one of our local volunteer groups, and maybe
two volunteers in the same chapter or a branch. And so that's not something that you're really taught when you're going to school for conservation or wildlife for forestry, is how to navigate those personal grievances or those personal issues and being able to almost be a therapist or a mediator between two different people that happens, and I say it kind of jokingly, but I'm serious. Is just being able to get people to sit down and talk about what,
you know, why they're having a disagreement. And another thing that I think schools are doing a much better job now is being a good communicator. Chris just said, you know, being able to I've had those same instances where you're put on the spot and you have to you have to explain yourself in a not in a heated way and talk about the facts or even write about or
be on camera talking about those things that happens. Because of NGO's being that conduitive information, you're always going to be talking to an audience in written or video form, audio form, in front of a live audience, or however be And that communication side is also that's not for everybody. And I'll tell you there are far more people that are not good at that than that are good at that.
And that's another not a negative, but a consideration. If you're going to get into this career, you have to be a you know, a mediator therapist, And you also have to be really good and think on your feet. And then when you do communicate, you have to push down any personal feelings you're having to a degree. It's always good to pull those in in a positive way, but then in a very even tone, communicate the facts and talk about you know, why it's important. And I
do like to show passion. I'm using my hands here if you aren't watching me, you know, being Italian, I use my hands a lot. But you know, I like to show passion and when I'm talking about and it's important for the people to connect with you. But you also don't want to get to the point where you're putting other people down and it's having a negative impact on what you're trying to accomplish in the first place.
Yeah, yeah, there's there's There are so many considerations when it comes to getting into this line of work or trying to incorporate this as part of your job or
whatever it might be. And I think you make a great point in emphasizing that despite all of these extra considerations, despite the parts that are not glamorous, despite you know, I think it's almost a rule that you're going to make less money if you choose to go to the conservation route than if you choose to go some other commercial route in many ways or in many different instances, at least you know, it just seems like the positive still far away, because at least from where I'm sitting in
my experience, the benefits of feeling like you have a real purpose and that you're making an impact and that you're making a positive difference that gives me so much more satisfaction than having enough money to buy a nicer car or something like that. I know everybody's situation is different, everyone has different burdens, it's different for everybody, but I feel like that's been a very consistent thing I've heard across the board from almost anyone who's chosen to take
this kind of leap. So that leads us to like the inevitable final piece on this side of things, which is just like, Okay, now it sounds like this is something that I want to do. I've been thinking I've wanted to do it for a long time.
Now.
I've heard these two inspiring stories. I've heard the good and the bad. Yes, sign me up. Where's this really easy job board that lists every single conservation job that I can just quickly sign up and get this gig.
How do you do that? Right?
It's not that easy? What Chris, what would you tell someone who's like, Okay, I want to find a job in this kind of world. I want to make a positive difference. I love the natural world. I love hunting or fishing or rivers and forests and prairies, and I want to do something like that. How do you how do you get that job?
Chris?
It? Yeah, it's a it's a question.
A lot of people are asking and and and I should mention that in it in the space, partically in the agency space, they are looking for people. They want people, and they want to they want people to to stay put.
For a period of time.
I had a meeting yesterday with the directors all the fishing game agency directors yesterday and one of the tough conversations that we were having was about how do we retain wildlife professionals beyond five years. So they're they're looking
and they're looking for good people. So I think you know to start your search if this is something that you're interested in, I think you have to connect with the professional the professional groups, the professional uh wildlife professionals or an organ or the Association of Fisional Wildlife Agencies. If you're interested in the nonprofit world, then connecting with you know, the nonprofits, becoming a member, volunteering, seeing if like the the your values are reflected in the organization,
picking up skills. I think those are all important steps in the process. I mean, there are, of course recruiting agencies, and all of our organizations are regularly posting positions that are available. But it goes back to something I mentioned earlier.
I think you have to be honest with you know what you want out of a career, the balance that you're looking for, and you also have to be honest about your professional skills and abilities and figuring out ways to improve areas of weakness and make yourself an attractive candidate for one of these positions. That said, so much of it, of this space here that we're in is built on relationships. So the more relationships that you can build and nurture, the better off you're going to be.
You have an opportunity to share who you are and what you're about in all of those personal contacts and relationships, and oftentimes that's one of the most important and the most overlooked parts of this whole thing, and yeah, yeah, what about you, Matt.
Chris is right, there are opportunities now. And not to sound like the old man walking uphill both ways or whatever, but there are lots of opportunities now because people are retiring and that generation, the baby boomer generation that we're losing hunters, we're losing not to resource professionals, because they're they're making space within all of the buckets that we mentioned before.
And when I was getting out.
Of school, it was harder to find a job. Not that it's easy now, but there just was no space. And so if you were interested, I think there is opportunity.
Mark.
There actually is a couple of conservation job boards that people can go look at Texas A and N. If you just type in Texas A and M job board, I think it's conservation job board is another one. I can provide the links to you if you want to share with people, but there are a couple like unique places that you can go look. I'll also say Chris is right in surrounding yourself and building relationships, but I'll kind of take a step back from that. You know,
different jobs have different requirements. Some might involve a degree that you don't have, and so that's a path that you want to go down. You have to start looking at schools and try to get a degree in it. And there's a lot of online programs you can try to get those degrees. Some are going to and a lot will require a master's degree, not only a bachelor's but a master's and that's more on you know, it depends on what level work. If you're going to spend
your career. If you do this doing more out outdoor technician type work like the doer, that wouldn't require an advanced degree. If you want to be in more of an administrative role, you wouldn't need something like that. But I would say, figure out what direction you want to go, and you can do a couple things.
To do that.
Great advice is to just surround yourself, get involved, join organizations. Join if there's you know, opportunities, if you want to explore something with your local state agency to go volunteer, go knock on the door, call people there. I was fortunate that I knew somebody that was affiliate with an agencycy early on, I was able to ask those questions. But there's no reason why you couldn't go to your local agency and make an appointment and talk to somebody
there and express those things. And I would say internships are also another great opportunity because there will be these kind of trial by a you know, opportunities in NGO world, but also doing things for all of the other private sector federal agency. You can go do like an intern or volunteer day and talk to people, so you don't have to dive one hundred percent in. You can kind
of try different things out before you do it. But my kind of reflecting back to my mention about being persistent, I mentioned I got a master's degree, but it didn't just fall in my lap. And this is one thing that a piece of advice that I have told anybody that's a young person that's looking to go into a career is if they're going to get a master's is to try to surround themselves with the type of people
that they're interested in doing the degree. And so for me, it was deer and so I looked up all the different when I was in high school or college. When I was in college, I looked up all the different places that good dear research was being produced and so a lot of that was in scientific literature. I mean, it's only like a couple couple names that usually come
out with that type of thing. So I familiarized myself with the universities and the professors that were churning out good deer research, and I started making phone calls and said, I'm an undergraduate, I'm interested in going to school for deer, you know, in a couple of years for a master's degree. Can I come visit you? And I got in my pickup truck or car back then, and I would go visit and you know, put myself in front of those folks and applied to schools when there was the opportunity.
But the position I ended up getting was because of exactly that I was just a known commodity. And I think that would that type of effort would would be
replicated in any of the buckets I mentioned. So if you really want to work for a policy group, or if you really want to work for a private consultant that is nearby that does wildlife and forestry work, you know, or if you want to do something with a state agency, be known, don't just hope go do it, Like make those phone calls, make you know, send emails, be persistent, be polite, and just be somebody that you portray yourself as professional, respectful, and you're a go getter. I mean,
this is like anything in life. We're not even talking about conservation, but just that's what I did and the position that I ended up getting, the graduate position studying deer poop mark I fell in my lap.
Actually we did, no.
Yeah, my project had to do with a winter feeding up in the north. You know, people dump out corn in the winter and it's not good for deer, but poop had something to do with it. But that ended up because I was known. The professor knew I was looking, and he said, hey, I got a project coming up and would you be interested. And that was awesome because I ended up living and working at a research facility that we had captive gear or research dear that we
were doing metabolic research. But every summer I got to work with a bunch of undergraduates and we had thirty or forty fonds that we were bottle raising. And I mean that that was an awesome experience that came with it. But my advice to anybody listening this is do your research, dip your toes in and then once you kind of figure out the path, if you're hungry, just jump in and you'll make it happen.
Yeah.
Yeah, I just quickly added, and this is like I'll pre physic by saying, this is the case across like all industries, all spaces.
But you know, one of the things that.
Is a reality is when you are on the inside, things are different than what you might have men. That's the case for the in the NGOs, it's the case in the industry. And so yeah, like there is that reality.
And for some.
People that's a little bit shocking when they they've come in, they've been you know, involved, and when they sort of get a different perspective of things, they're a little bit taken aback. But like I said that, that's normal in any space. And then the only other kind of like you know, like our job, Matt and I, our job is not.
To go deer hunting.
Like do we get opportunities to do that that you know that we might not have, but that I might not have had as a teacher. Certainly, definitely, I'm not
going to fully admit that. But I think the other important thing to just acknowledge, and this goes back to that advice about knowing your what you're interested in, your values and and everything is if if hunting or fishing is a real passion, like there, there is reason to sort of be aware and cautious about aligning that so close to your job and and Mark like you've you've kind of talked a little bit about this over the years and have been really honest about it, which I've
really appreciated that, and I've been able to relate to that at times where you know, this passion of yours is so close to what you're doing for work, and you've put this extra like this pressure on you that doesn't necessarily need to be there, and that cuts in
a little bit on the passion. You have to set boundaries, you have to be aware of that, and because it's going to impact you, it's going to impact your family, it's can impact your ability to have an impact in the space that you want to to have.
Excellent, very good fact excellent West Chris, Yes, yeah, very true.
I'll jump in with one last kind of pile on note and kind of validate something you said there in regards to you know, the the do everything be everywhere approach. Once you figure out your lane. That applies not just to NGOs or agency work or being a practitioner on the ground. It also applies to like the conservation communicator role as well. So I have lots of people who are asking me how do I make media? Like how do I do a podcast? How do I become a writer?
How do I become a TV show host? How do I do this thing or that thing? And all of those things plus everything. Both of you described the same approach does work, which is you know you just said, figure out what your thing is. Figure out what your angle is or what your lane is, or what your unique skill set is. So like, are you do you have that science background and you can be someone who can work in resource management, or are you a great orator or are you a great writer or are you
passionate about photography? Find out whatever your thing is that you can bring to the world, and then do it. I think that that's a big thing. Some people think they need to wait until they get permission to do the thing, or to wait until someone validates them and says like, hey, you now work in this field, Now you can do your thing, or they're waiting for someone to bring it to them. You kind of alluded to that, Matt, like, no one's going to knock on your door and ask
you to do this stuff. You have to put it out into the world. So my biggest advice is, once you decide on what your thing is that you can bring to the world, do it. Do it, make it, create it, start doing the work. So if you want to be a habitat manager, go out there and volunteer do projects. Go and volunteer on the back forty or go out there and be a part of these different events and do the work and showcase, hey, I've done this stuff. I'm doing it all the time, I'm getting
better at it. Or if you want to be a podcaster or you want to be a writer, don't wait for Field and Stream to tell you to start writing for them. Just start writing all the time, getting better at the craft, doing the thing, and put it out into the world. Whatever the thing is you end up doing, make sure the world knows about it, share it with the world, put it out there as much as you possibly can. Because that leads to the final thing which you both alluded to, which is, like, so much of
this is network based. It's based on who you know who knows of you, who's aware of your work, who's aware of your skill set, who's aware of your talent or of the value you bring to the table. And so you just need to make and do and share and work with other people. And if you do that over and over and over again with this set of values and motivation that we've been talking about, with that fuel burning and making your fire go and go and go, you can make this work. You can do this stuff.
But you know it's it's it's not it's not easy. It's easier said than done. But I think we all agree it's it's well worth it, right.
It's easy if it's a genuine burn, if that if that fuel is genuine, if you're doing it for self validation or val, not self held validation from the outside to get approval, which is you know, just being a parent, just watching all the stuff out there and trying to figure out, you know, self esteem and all the things that we all we all have doubts about ourselves. Don't
do it for for that. Do it because you have a genuine feel of wanting to do it, and do it for yourself honestly, as much as it is about the difference that you make. Do it because you want to be proud of yourself to do that, to make a difference.
Sleep a lot better at night when you know you did something. Yes, I always anyone who's listened to me for any period of time has heard me say this, and I'll say it to the day I die. But you know this line from Avon Shinar, the greatest cure for depression is action. And that's like, that's become like the mantra for my life. Like every time I see some new headline about this river getting polluted and this species going into decline and this public land that's being threatened.
You hear all this stuff, and it's so easy to get down in the dumps about it, and it's so easy to you know, feel that like cloud hanging over you, like, jeez, what is the world going to be like when my kids grow up? Anytime I start feeling that way, you know, I just think, Okay, well, now what what then, Like, what's the step I can take? What's the action I can take? And that immediately makes you feel better in the short term and the long term. And that's I
think so much of what this conversation. I think revolves around it. I think there's a lot of people listening, reading, watching, seeing the world around them, who care about wildlife, who care about wild places, who love to hunt and fish, They love these things, and they're seeing they're seeing those loves threatened, and they're thinking to themselves one of two things.
Either hands in the air, it's all going to shit and they're feeling really lousy about it, or they can say, all right, now what And I hope this conversation is an answer to that question, at least to some degree, which leads us, though, to a second part of the conversation, which we've gone way longer than I thought in the first part. So apologies to both of you for keeping
you here longer than we originally discussed. But there's so much good stuff to cover there on the Hey, what if you want to work professionally for wildlife, But what
if you want to work non professionally for wildlife. What if there's someone listening who loves all this stuff, wants to be able to make an impact, but the same time has a career that's already fulfilling, that's already checking all the boxes for them, and they're just looking for a way to do this kind of stuff in the other part of their life.
We'll keep this a.
Little bit more brief in the first half. What would be like a handful of ways that you guys have found to be the most impactful ways to do that for someone listening that wants to start making a positive impact on fish, wildlife, public lands, conservation, whatever their specific passion is. Chris, what would be a couple suggestions you might throw out there for folks.
I think a great starting point for people is to simply learn to take the time to read so that you can better understand why agencies or like what is the what's the logic behind conservation efforts? I think that is a great starting point. It's going to make the time that you can go and actually do something, you know, whether it be volunteer some time or whatever, it's going to make it You're going to be able to see and understand better what you're doing and why you're doing it.
It's going to make you a better conservation advocate in the long run. So that's it, Like you know, and it doesn't have to be like you don't have to you don't have to go out and read every conservation book.
It could be as simple as yeah, y, I was actually.
Thinking of your your your recommendations from yesterday for for Earth Day and and anyways. Uh so after you've read that book and what you had, like if your state agency has a magazine, sometimes it's it's a separate thing, a some separate subscription. It's usually not much, but in there they're going to profile the conservation projects, the initiatives
that they have underway. And it's obviously it's more in depth than a than an Instagram post or something, and that way you can understand the efforts and the motivation is behind. You know, your your state agency. That's starting point number one, and then number two. Just find opportunities, whether it's through uh nd A or b h A or whatever. UH attend a project or.
You know every.
Land trust are doing projects, uh state or are some federal fish and wildlife refugees are doing stuff all the time. And I think those are just simple, great opportunities to to to go out there and make a difference in an organized way.
Yeah, there's a local.
Property that is you know, publicly accessible, state, federal county, and there's likely some kind of friends of group, you know, friends of that group, friends of that property. Those those are good opportunities to kind of plug in locally. That was learned is a great baseline Chris, that was that was good advice. And I thought about this, Mark, you know, when you send us a message before recording, is what would what would the baseline advice be? Is obviously a volunteer.
I mean, that's what a volunteer is. And uh, there are tons of ng os out there like us that are geared toward you know, a specific niche so whatever that would be. And so that kind of goes without saying. But I was thinking more deeply about that advice. Why would you want to do that? You know, as you know, we're we're people, right, and we're we're kind of a community based species. Like we like being around others that are similar to us, related to us, that like the
same things. And that's one of the great things about volunteerism is you're you're plugging yourself into a community and you will draw from that. You can kind of go in full bore and become, you know, a volunteer every weekend or if you're you know, busy with work and family and other obligations, you can you can kind of come and go. That's what's great about being a volunteer is you give what you can. It could be financial. There's like the three t's right, time, treasure, and what's
the other one. Chris, I trying to remember what the other T is. But it's like the three ways to give. You could give financially, you give your time or talent. You know, your talent is the third one. Uh, those are those are like that. That's the three legs of
the stool of a volunteer. And everybody has something. You know, if you don't have the financial means to give a couple of dollars or become a member, you know, most organizations twenty thirty forty dollars to be a member per year, you certainly have a talent because everybody has something.
They can give.
Maybe you're a graphic artist for work full time and you can provide that, or maybe you take really good photos or you know, instead of being there for giving time. But those are the three categories that volunteers exist in. And you can do it one hundred percent and go, you know, a million miles an hour and volunteer all the time, or you can just do a little bit. But those, I would say, surrounding yourself in a community of like minded folks. So I'm a deer guy. You know,
there's a deer behind me in the video. I like being part of the organization I work for, and I eventually applied for a job because I just loved it so much. I'm talking to people about deer all the time. My wife would think that I would get sick of it, but I don't. I just I love talking about deer and dear research and deer hunting and dear you know, all of the things around that.
That's me.
I mean, that's who I am. I've been like that since I was little. But if you're super passionate about our public lands, that country Hunters and Anglers is the group for you. If you're a turkey hunter, there's the National Wild Turkey Federation. So there's all these groups that are national and goos. But don't look past those local
groups too. Chris hit the nail on the head. Because you live in a community and there's some environmental issue, whether it's development happening too fast, or some piece of property that is being threatened by invasive species or something that's going to be built on there whatever you feel like giving to find that group and plug yourself in.
Yeah, and if you want to be a kind of like have a force multiplier approach to conservation volunteering, there's a couple of things you could do. You can take your kids with you and involve them and and sort of nurture that aspect and you know that becomes part of what you do as a family and gets them
outside and I think that's a great one. And then you know, going back to like the friends groups that you mentioned, Uh, you know, we've we've we have at times some of the local chapters are have gotten together. Not a bha thing, but we'll go to a friends of a refuge event and just help out. We're not over it. We're not like making a big thing about
our presence. You know, maybe you wear a camo hat or a hat or whatever, and you know, time over time, people recognize these are a bunch of hunters coming to help, you know, do this, help this project, you know, remove this evasive plant or whatever and it And why that is a multiplier is because you're representing the community and you're showing up and doing things in areas that are kind of adjacent to you know, to what you normally would do, and those types of things make a huge,
huge difference.
Yeah.
I like that both of you mentioned physically showing up because because there are there's like two ways we can be advocates or conservationists in our spare time. There's there's the things we can do, you know, digitally or through a phone call, right, we can we can call a legislator. We can call a friend and tell them about this thing we can learn, which is very very important. That's
a very important baseline. You can send a tweet, make a blog post, do a podcast about this kind of stuff, and all that stuff is good and helpful and important. You can share your photography, very good. But there is something special, There's something magical. And you guys heard my spiel last year when I talked about this at the
Working for Wildlife events. But there is something different that happens when you make that shift from just like talking about this stuff to actually showing up physically for it. And it's my snowball theory, and I'll share it again
even though I know you both know it. What happens, I think is that when you start showing up for conservation in a physical way you arrive at an event, you say, you know, I'm going to pick up trash all day today because I care enough, Or I'm going to go and plant trees today or collect acorns or whatever it is, clean up a river. You are kind of staking a flag in the ground. It says something
about you. This becomes your identity when you're willing to take the time out of daily life to drive somewhere else or to hike out somewhere else, to actually get your hands dirty for these places, for these animals. That is saying something about you in a very real way. And that doesn't end on that day, because if you
can show up tomorrow or yesterday Earth Day. My wife was like, hey, let's real quick, grab a trash bag and let's just go for a walk with the kids, and let's just make sure we're actually taking real action today. I was like, Yes, you're absolutely right, let's go do it. And just that little bit of my kids going out there yesterday and spending an hour walking through the woods picking up trash, that says a little bit of something about them in them, a little bit of them is changing.
And tomorrow when they're out there and they see a turtle crossing the road or something. They're going to be just a little bit more likely to say, Hey, you know, I'm the kind of person that picks up trash because I care about nature. So I'm also the kind of person who's going to take the time to hold my dad's hand, look both ways, go into the road and
pick up that turtle. Right, and in a more serious note, like with any of us, right, if you can pick up that trash today, then next week you can pick up that trash on the side of the road, because you know you're that kind of person. And then maybe a month from now, there's some bigger project that maybe in your past life what is seen like outside of your realm of interest or would be too much work.
But these little things start adding up, and all of a sudden you start realizing you start seeing yourself in a different way because hey, well I did that thing last week, and I did this thing last month, and gosh, I kind of amd that kind of person. And you start having this snowball effect where all of a sudden, you're making more and more of an impact, and you're surrounding yourself with people who are also doing these kinds
of things. And you get this compounding effect if you're putting yourself out there, surrounding yourself with people that care about these things too, and actually investing a little bit of your time and energy. That is I think how any big important thing has happened in this world. Yeah, and I think that's how we can make real change to help deer, public lands, trout stripe, bass, prairie or ass lands, whatever it is. That's how we're going to
start making a difference. And so it's a long winded wind up to say we've done some of these things over the last year with the Working for Wildlife tour that both of you helped out with and we're part of, and to kind of wrap it up, I guess I would like to just hear a little bit from both of you about your takeaways from those events last year, and I do want to plug a couple upcoming events
here for twenty four to two. So Chris, I want to start with you on this front because you helped us with our very first event last year there in Massachusetts, and when it bumped into you the other day at the BHA Rendezvous, you mentioned that there have been like a whole series of like rippling effects coming out of that event. I'd love to hear your takeaway from that day, what you thought about the whole thing, and then you know what's happened since that. Yeah.
Yeah, it was a good I mean, it was a great day.
And it was you know, as you said, it was the first first of the tour, first for us to to sort of plan an event, because it kind of kind of became a kind of an event conservation event. We had to It took place on the north shore of Massachusett at w May and you know, there's only limited parking on a w May and we had a lot of people registered to attend, so I had to secure off site parking.
I had to get a minibus. I had to get a minibus driver.
You know, we wanted to make sure that we had food, and the State Agegency mass Wildlife got got involved. So there was all this logistics that were you know required, and again these logistics are are a product of of of Marks platform and support and willingness to engage in this and engage with the cunning community uh in Massachusetts.
So yeah, a lot of people came, and a lot of the state agency people came, many of whom were coming from outside the district on their days off and were there and really really excited about engaging with constituents. And that I think was one thing that was huge, the fact that people had an opportunity to spend time work alongside, whether it was putting up wood duck boxes or just picking up trash, picking up spent shells at the shooting range. They had time to meet the people
who are responsible. They saw the passion all that stuff that we talked about for the first hour. They saw that in these people, their state employees, and I think that was huge. And we had a hugely diverse population of people there from real old timers who had just
not been plugged in with any organization. I mean they might have members of organizations and they just heard about this event and then it was taking place in a place they spent their youth hunting, and they made put a lot of effort in trying to be there too.
A brand new.
Hunter to you know, are a local Olympic legend coming down and taking part and giving of their time. So it was just a huge mix of people and experience and.
Though many of.
Those people and I talked about this yesterday at my PLENARYA I actually put a picture of the group picture of all people, and I was talking about how I could point to just individual people who have never stepped up before, have never offered testimony at a regulatory hearing or at a legislative hearing, and who've become involved and invigorated through that experience in part because they met all
people like them and they built community. And it's been pretty pretty awesome to see one guy who was there at another w A very close to there, I bumped into. He was a new hunter, he'd moved to the area, and you know, he was inspired just by the conversation and that led him to actually shooting a really good buck, which I helped him drag.
Out of the woods.
So from from conservation things to time in the field and experiences in the field, friendships, it's been it's been pretty.
Uh.
That snowball It definitely snowballed.
Yeah.
I met someone at the at the b h A rendezvous the other day who was at that Boston event. And I might get the details, the exact details wrong, but the basic gist of the story he shared with was that that was the first like event like that he'd ever been to and coming out of that, he was so invigorated by it that he started getting more involved with BHA, started doing doing some more chapter related stuff.
I guess came to this rendezvous all the way from Massachusetts, came all the way to Minnesota for the rendez who for the first time and it is now about to retire from his previous career in armed services and is trying to figure out a way to take a new career within the conservation world. And it kind of all stemmed from this year journey he's been on since that event. So just incredible kind of stories like that to to fuel our fire, I think when you hear that kind
of thing, right, Yeah, so exciting stuff. Matt.
I also just want to say, like, you know, and thank you.
You gave so much of your time and energy to talk to people, to work alongside with people, and I think that made just like the fact that they get to meet and work with their state agency people to to you know, be there alongside you who they've probably listened to or watched. I think that also, you know, was a big I mean, we're going to be honest here, Matt, and I are going to be honest here. That was a big part of it, and so we definitely appreciate that.
That's my absolute pleasure, that's for sure. And even though Aaron and the guys from Missouri aren't here, we also had another great event with BHA in Missouri last year. Yeah, similar effect, I mean, just like really reinvigorating. We got to work on all sorts of cool projects out there. It was a very diverse event in that we were
removing encroaching willows within a wetland restoration area. We were creating owl roosting locations in a prairie, we were collecting native prairie sees for future replanting efforts to restore grasslands. There was a couple other things, but there was a whole bunch of different projects. A very cool event, and then we also had three events with you, Matt and
the Nash Deer Association. Would love to you know, we talked about some of the stuff last year, but would love to kind of hear your perspective on what the impact of that stuff was or what the trickle down effects have been that you've seen, whether that's with volunteers or the Forest Service or your organization or anything like that.
Yeah, same experience that Chris had with a diverse group showing up. We did events in northern Idaho, did one in Mississippi, and did one in Kentucky last year. All three of the events that we held again with Mark you mentioned the Forest Service, we did a little bit differently.
We have a public Lands Initiative. It's just one project that we have within the organization, trying to improve a million acres of public land, doing this through various methods, and one of the ways that we're trying to do that is we do stewardship work through the Forest Service. So we have contracts to agreements with the US four Service around the country, and so we plug that program into the Working for Wildlife tour. Our chapters are our branches.
Our volunteer branches do a variety of different activities and they vary based on the makeup of those volunteers. Some of them are really strong on hunter recruitment events, some of them are really strong on habitat work or education.
They vary.
Not as many of our branches or do public land work. Some of them do probably the biggest trickle down effect, and that's one of the reasons we tried to hold it and administer those tour sites from the National Office was it just was more opportunity because we have dozens of projects going on on public land. It just was
it was easier to plug in. And the experience was similar in terms of the people that showed up varied from families to people that had never heard of us before, but they hunted that WMA for years, and they showed up because there was a volunteer day to some of our volunteers and longtime members brand new hunters. It ran the gamut. In Idaho, that project was pretty neat. We're
restoring aspen. In Mississippi, we were planting trees and also seeding some areas for game hunting because that's a highly used wildlife management area for that upcoming deer season. In Kentucky, Mark mentioned picking up acorns. We picked up seven eight hundred pounds of white oak acorns which are now being grown out in the state nursery. All three projects involved other partners. We had the state Wildlife Agency involved in
each one. But the trickle down effect, we have a lot of our branches that are now interested in doing these kinds of events. We've always had a few, but I've talked to at a national webinar series to our branches, and just this year alone, I can name events happening in Missouri and in Indiana and other things because of
the work and for Wildlife Tour. So it did have that multiplier effect, and I think it'll become a larger part of the persona of our branch network, and we've actually provide them guidance on how to hold similar events locally. I think one of the best stories that came from you know, there are lots of stories and the people
I met. One of the best stories. Mark and I were in Kentucky talking to a young man that brought his whole family, little children there, and he was courageous enough to talk to us about why he was there.
We asked a bunch of people, I'm sure you did, Chris, you know why they came that day, and he was courageous enough to say, you know, we had wanted to learn how to hunt, and this was something he was trying to do on his own and he figured coming to this event that he heard about on the Meat Eater and Wired to Hunt platform, it was in his area.
He was he's a military man, and that event allowed us to connect him with somebody through our for service contacts there locally that took him out and got him his first year. And I shared that with Mark last fall and he's he wants to volunteer now and is starting one of our branches. So there's these These events
do have that snowball effect that you talked about. We're excited to do more of them and use them as a baseline of how not only volunteer branches or chapters and mngos can do it, but anybody can do it locally. You don't need you just need a couple of people and permission to go out and do it. And I'd love to see more of this stuff happening.
Yeah, Yeah, it's it's been. It's been a lot of fun. Been very fulfilling to see, exciting to see, you know, both on like on the day of just hearing all the stories and seeing the good work that's getting done. And the surprise for me was just all the the pure enjoyment of the whole thing. Like I knew i'd feel good about doing the work, but I did not realize it was just gonna be so much damn fun and that there're gonna be so many friendships started and
connections made. Stories like that like someone getting connected with the mentor who was able to help him, you know, teach him how to deer on get his first year, Like how incredible is that? So that's exciting and it's it's it's a big part of why we're continuing the tour going this year, and I'm gonna do everything I can to keep it going the year after that and the year after that and and hopefully see this thing grow this year. Right now, we have three events scheduled
so far. We'll see if there's more or not, but we have do we do a three locked in right now? Two of which Matt, you are helping organize again, do you want to give folks the quick spiel on these next two coming up here pretty soon?
Yeah, we have an event coming up in a month, May eighteenth. It's in Kentucky on Daniel Boone National Forest. That showing was real strong. We actually had the Kentucky BHA volunteers showed up in force that day, Chris, So that was awesome. So we have one on May eighteenth on Daniel Boone National Forest. We're going to be actually on a WMA doing some habitat improvement and access improvement
within the WMA. Then we have one on June first on Allegheny National Forest in northwestern Pennsylvania, and that one's going to involve a whole suite of activities, installing bird nesting boxes and bat boxes, removing some old fence, and actually repairing some fence. They actually have deer fencing up all over that National Forest. We're going to be we're doing some access work as well and tree and shrub planting, and so that's on Saturday, June first.
Yeah, and then we've got another one on August twenty fourth that's up in northern Minnesota, right on the edge of the Bounder Waters, and we're going to be doing a pretty cool project in collaboration with the Minnesota DNR and I think with the Forest Service up there too, in which we'll be actually creating an access point where you can, like they've got all these different access points for water access there on the boundary waters and surrounding lakes,
so we're going to help install an access point off this lake and then create white tail wintering habitat back in this area as well, so they'll be like a public land access component of it and the habitat side, So it's gonna be a you know, kind of like that other one you mentioned, Matt, A very clear connection between man, we're giving back to wildlife and then we're also creating opportunities for hunting, fishing, camping, whatever it is.
It's a big cycle that feeds itself and all these parts come together to help both us and the natural resources. So very cool stuff. I will definitely be keeping folks posted if there's more that we can add to the slate this year or early next year. But I'd say anyone listening if you would like to participate in one of those three events coming up or want to see if there's other ones down the line, Rather than try and give you a specific url, I don't have it
easy RL. Just google the Working for Wildlife tour or visit the meet at or website which is the meat Eater dot com and search for the same thing and we will have the latest information there. I think that's There should be sign up pages, Matt available for the first two right rock and roll, so hit those up. Please sign up Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, and possibly more to come. If you guys, the two of you had any last final words. You want to leave folks with a final
action item, suggestion or just peace out. I got to take a nap. How would you like to leave things?
Chris?
Uh?
One thing, just jumping way back to the the career thing. I think one of the things that is, and I think Matt mentioned it and Mark you touched on it was separate. I think I forget exactly how you put it, but I think it was, you know, separating your ego around a lot of this stuff, particularly you know, in
this this hunting space. And I think that is really important because when you go and make those connections and as you start having conversations with people, that is going to if your if your motivations aren't you know, I don't want to say we all.
Obviously it's a job, you have to pay, we have bills to pay and all that kind of stuff. But if your motivations are.
Outside of what the people would use your skills and talents for, it is going to be a parent very very quickly. And so I'm always kind of like remind myself that, all right, I am, I am operating. This could be advantageous for me, but I need to make sure that this is going to be the benefit of my organization, to the benefit of the resource. And I always keep that in mind. And one of the silly kind of ways I remind myself and Mark's been in my office it.
Is the wall of four keys.
In my office because I was I'm on all these calls and all these times, and I have the beer that I have in my office are four kys.
Now, I have made an adjustment. I have put in a better deer.
But that was a deer that I did with that I that was harvested along side one of my partners or one of my mentees, and it was just a meaningful experience for both of us. So I've made the exception in that case. But it's just a little bit of a reminder that, all right, like, this isn't about me, This isn't about sometimes, it's not even about Baja. This is about working for wildlife. And so that would be one point that I would make on the professional front,
and then just in general, just just get involved. Just get out there and do something and find like minded people, build community, and let's continue to build that snowball.
Yeah, mat Uh, this is great advice for anything. Learn as Chris said, and share. And that's the one thing that I you know, sharing is caring right, you know, share, share what you've learned, Pull people along with you on the journey, talk to them about what is what you're passionate about when you show up to things, because that that tangible of showing up. You know, our self identity is a big part of how our confidence and how
we feel about ourselves. As Mark said, So there's the physical showing up for a Working for Wildlife event or a BHA event or an NDA event or you know, whatever that is. But you can also show up and be a good son or daughter, or show up and be a good parent, or show up and be a good friend or a good employee by doing right. And
part of that is sharing. And so my advice to anybody is, if you're inspired by the story of conservation, if you're inspired by the work that Chris does or that Mark does, or that I do, and you want to get involved, either as a volunteer or take the deep dive, bring somebody along with you. Some of the most meaningful experiences what Chris just said in my life
have been when other people are involved. And that might a lot of that is involved in the outdoors, but watching somebody get their first dear or watch their first sun rise, or the jitters they get, or my kids walking with me in the woods and me just teaching them how to walk quietly, and all the things that we do as outdoors men and women. A lot of it does have to do with sharing and the genuine
mention that I mentioned that earlier. You know, do it for yourself, you know there is that self side of it, but don't be afraid to share, share with somebody and and take the things that you've learned. I hope people are inspired, honestly, you know, not just listen to a podcast about it like this one, but to do something. And it doesn't need to be grander, it doesn't need to be big, but just do something, you know, hold somebody's hand and jump in together and do something good.
It'll make you feel better.
Yeah, the greatest care for depression Action Action Action. Well, thank you both, Thank you so much. I am leaving this inspired and reinvigorated and excited to continue trying to to make a difference and induce good stuff in this world. For these incredible places, incredible creatures. We're so so lucky to live in a place where we can do these things, where we can hunt and fish and explore. Man, that's
not the case for everyone. So we got to remind ourselves not to take that for granted and not to assume that it's guaranteed. We have to make sure that we are putting in the effort to maintain these opportunities, privileges, and resources. So on us, I will leave with two last notes more practically. Number one, an action item that everyone I would highly suggest you take if you have not already, is become a member of the two organizations
that these guys are a part of. Both tremendous conservation organizations. Both have opportunities and events that you can participate in, like we've talked about, even outside of working for wildlife, right, there's other stewardship events BHA chapters have as you just mentioned. Other chapters are trying to get some things kicked off with NBA in places. Man, there's so many opportunities. So these are two organizations you can join. Become a member,
please do. It's Dear Association dot com for the NDA, and it is Backcountry Hunters dot Org for BHA. All right, you're right, Okay, so head to those websites, become a member, get involved, and then I'll reiterate something I just said, which is, yes, there's three events scheduled so far for the Working for Wildlife Tour this year, but there are many other stewardship events across the country involved with other
organizations all over the place. So if you do not live near one of those three we mentioned, don't let that stop you. Do a little bit searching around, do a little bit bit of googling, reach out to your local chapter of whatever organizations you're part of, reach out to your your local forest service unit, whatever it is. There's probably some way you can get involved. Like Matt said, do it, get involved, do the thing, and let's get more snowballs rolling.
Down the hill.
All right, that is a wrap. Thanks for being here. Please, as a mention, make sure you're a member of.
BHA and NDA.
I hope you'll take some action after our chat here, sign up for those Working for Wildlife events, sign up for a different stewardship event, Participate in any kind of way you can. When it comes to online advocacy, make your phone calls, chat with your legislators. Learn Like Chris said, make sure you're maintaining a baseline understanding of the different issues ongoing. Follow the news. Make sure that you are an educated and enlightened conservationist so you can take action
on the right things when the time is ready. And well, that ill said, thank you.
Thanks for being here. I appreciate you being a part of this community.
I appreciate you being the kind of person who puts a flag in the ground and says, hey, I care enough about wildlife, about wild places, about deer hunting, fishing, turkey hunting, what every thing is. You care enough to do something about it, to give back and to work for wildlife. So thanks and stay wired to hunt.