Ep. 769: How Lateral Thinking and Curiosity Can Make You a Better Deer Hunter

Have you ever wanted to have a sit down or discussion with myself and Tony Peterson to answer your very own hunting questions. Did you ever wish that you could send us a map of your hunting property and have us pinpoint the spots that we think would be good. Have us talk through our ideas on how you might be able to access your property or your hunting locations, or maybe where to put food plots or all sorts

of stuff like that. Well, guess what that chance is available now as a part of meat Eater's auction House of Oddities, we are auctioning off a one hour private digital consultation. I guess it's an hour long zoom call with me and Tony to talk through whatever you want to talk about when it comes to white tails. We will review your maps, take a look at your property,

answer any questions, spitball, strategize, We'll do it all. And as a part of this thing, As a part of this auction, this item which you can bid on, or many others that are out there as well, like some guided fishing trips, hunting trips, all sorts of different bizarre things like a I don't know, like a fur covered buyo harness, I think the beaver fur pillows. All sorts

of stuff over at the auction House of Oddities. But this auction house is benefiting Meat Eater's Land Access initiative, and this time around, the land Access Initiative is supporting the ongoing legal fees. So the funds from these auctions will go to help fund the ongoing legal fees of the Wyoming Corner Crossing case and the outcome of this case in Wyoming can be applied to twenty seven thousand

plus corner crossings across eleven Western states. So that means if this thing finally gets finalized in our favor, it could open up eight million acres of public land that would finally clearly be legal for you and me to access.

So that's what we're doing here with this auction. If you go over to Auctionhouseofodities dot com or just go to the meat eater dot com and then you'll be a find links there heading over to the auction house, bid on this digital hunting consultation with me and Tony or any of the other items, and help support this Wyoming corner crossing case and let's open up eight million acres of new public land for you and me. And just a heads up on timing. The auction house is

open from now until April ninth, twenty twenty four. Now back to the show. All right, Welcome back to another episode of the Wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their Camo for Conservation initiative. This whole initiative means that a portion of every sale of first Light Spectr cameo pattern, which is the white Tail pattern that Tony and I wear out there all season long. If you buy anything with that pattern on it, a portion of that sale is going to go to the

National Dear Association, which I'm a fan of. Now today we've got a different kind of episode for you. I've got my buddy Tony Peterson with me to help with this. And here's the idea. I kind of want to set the stage for the conversation we're going to have here, kind of lay out my pitch I suppose for you, and then and then we'll see where it goes. But

here's the idea, the pitch I have. The concept I want to consider today is this idea, This idea that if you want to be the best possible deer hunter you can be, you need to do other things than deer hunting. If you want to have specialist level success as a deer hunter, you know what we assume a specialist has, which is like the very most deer hunting success you could get. If you want to have that kind of success, you actually need to be more of

a generalist. So this is kind of a backwards thought here, But this is this argument that I have something that Tony and I have kind of dabbled around the edges and past conversations, but today I really want to focus on this idea that to get better deer hunting, to have more success, to have more satisfaction with this thing that we talk about every week, actually want to and

should diversify our activities and our year. We actually should think about adding in more seasonality to what we're doing. We should actually consider some changes in pace. We need to invest in different kind of activities that kind of spark our mind in different ways, that challenge us in different ways, and all of this kind of stuff. By stepping away from your standard way of thinking about deer hunting, the standard deer hunting things we do, it will actually

come back around and help us. That's the pitch. That's the idea that I want to consider here, Tony. Before I lay into like some of my inspiration for this, the first thing I want to know from you is does any of this resonate like, does this seem like something that makes sense to you? Or do I sound like I'm off my rocker?

for a lot of people. And I think that being a generalist and being interested in other stuff, not just outdoor activities, not just we're not just talking fishing or fast at hunting or whatever, but just having things that challenge you, that keep you working toward goals and kind of that that intermittent progress. I just I think it's as I age, that becomes so much more evident to me how important that is. You know, it's just a long game thing.

very useful come October or November, whatever it is. And like just kind of having that awareness on at all times, even outside of deer hunting season, even when I'm doing something completely unrelated to deer hunting. I think it's important to kind of just have that awareness boiling in the back of your subconscious so you can pick and grab and choose and remember these different things or jump on

these little opportunities when they arise. I think all of that stuff helps build this next level deer hunting ability. I guess here's one thing that I've thought about. There's like different levels or stages of growth as a deer hunter that I think I've experienced at least, and I imagine most people have this. You've got that first stage where you're just trying to figure out, like what the hell am I doing right where you just need like a foundation of what is this stuff I'm looking at?

What are these things I'm trying to do? Where do these things live? How do they operate? Like you have to have a base level amount of knowledge, right, And then there's like the second tier, which is like a big one where like how do I become good at this stuff? Like how do I really understand the nuance? How do I really get to the two oh one three oh one level? Stuff like this is that stage where people go from just killing deer to like how do I consistently kill you know, older deer? Right? And

I think a lot of people maybe stop there. But then there's this next level that I think there's probably two ways to go about getting there. I think there's one level where there's the person who just wants to be the specialist, the guy or girl who says, I'm

doing nothing else but deer hunting. I'm gonna spend ten thousand hours becoming an expert in this thing and this is the only thing, and that that might be one way to do it, Like I can I can point to some examples of that, But I guess what I want to talk about today is a different way to get there, which is this this way of pulling in from the outside world that will then help you on this inside whitetail world become better. And so part of this this is a long, roundabout way of getting to

what I want to say here, Tony. But there's a book I've been reading. It's called Range by David Epstein. You've ever heard of that. So the book here is I mean, it's right about what we're talking about here. The book's called Range Why generalists triumph in a specialized world? And the general thesis here is that there's if we were to oversimplify, there's kind of two different ways or environments within this world that we live in that you

could break things up. There's something that they refer to some studies that point to kind learning environments, and kind learning environments are kind learning activities are the kinds of things where you know, there are clear rules, there are clear patterns, there's very immediate and clear feedback, and you can then, you know, operate in an environment like that or in an activity like that and very clearly understand, Okay,

this is what you're supposed to do. I do the thing, it worked or it didn't work, and then I adjust. This would be stuff like chess, This would be stuff like solving math problems. This is stuff like golf, I don't know, different activities like that. And then there's what you know. Epstein makes the argument in his book there's a different kind of a learning environment, which is where

the world is trending more and more now. He originally speaks to the fact that kind of the old world was more of like that kind learning environment, like working in a factory. It's like you take this thing, you put it in this hole, and you move it down the line. Right, It's like, just do this, do this, do this, move it down. And now we're moving into a new kind of world, which is what they call a wicked learning environment and a wicked learning environment. I'm

just going to read you the quote here. A wicked and learning environment are these activities where patterns are harder to discern, and feedback is delayed or inaccurate. Information is hidden even when it isn't. Feedback may be delayed, it might be infrequent, it may be non existent. It may be partly accurate or inaccurate. So sometimes in wicked learning environments, the wrong types of behavior are reinforced. What is that soundly to you? That sounds like deer hunting, right.

if this is the right thing, right. How many times have we talked about asking why and we try to figure out the why something happened, but we never really know, right, there's no clear feedback, there's no accurate feedback. All the time, we're dealing with a tremendous amount of uncertainty.

allows something called lateral thinking. So the simplified version of what lateral thinking is just like being able to connect disparate ideas, being able to take an idea from one world and apply it to another, taking a concept from one realm and pulling into your world, like combining different things in creative ways problem solving, right, And that I think is what we're kind of trying to get at today. I think that.

you know, can make you a better deer hunter. And I think this is pointing to man, there's like higher level studies and higher level stuff going on here that points to, yeah, that being true, whether it be diversity in your deer hunting or diversity in everything you're doing.

And again, like being able to pull from all of those different places, being able to pull from all those different activities, strengthening these different muscles hype like metaphorical muscles, mental and physical in some case, and how all that comes back and helps you as a deer hunter. Like the thing is if you just do the same thing over and over and over again, if you just hunt the same way over and over and over to a degree,

you'll get better at that thing for a while. But there's that plateauing, right, And we don't live in a static deer hunting world, right. Things are always changing around. It's the habitat is changing, hunting pressures changing, There's all

sorts of things that can go haywire. If you're not able to stay up on that, if you're not too able to adjust with the times, if you're not able to be just as dynamic as the wild world is, you're never going to enjoy the success that you probably could have otherwise.

the best doing right now? And it kind of like my wife walked in and I was like, I'm going to ask my wife if she ever thinks about small mouth any other time than when I'm like we should go because right like she fishes with us, you know, and like we we go up to the lake a lot. And so I'm like, does she does it ever occur to her to think about small mouth in March or

you know, April or whatever. So I asked her, I was like, in any given month when we're not like going to the lake, do you ever think about what those small mouths are doing in our lake? And she looked at me and she was like no, like why why would I? And it just it kind of like it made me think about how often you talk to somebody who's a deer hunter, you know, like and I'm

kind of stereotyping here. But you know, maybe there's somebody who goes up for the rifle opener and the you know, up in the up at the cabin or whatever for three days, and that's their hunt. They're probably not thinking about white tails, like what what what are the deer

doing up there in march? And I think that so when you talk about, you know, learning in this wicked environment that we're going to get into here and and becoming a generalist, I think one of the easiest things for you to do is to start thinking about this stuff more like just start just put some mental horsepower to it. You can't always go out and scout. You can't always be a part of it in that world, but you can not even not even necessarily eat scouting.

You can be thinking about this more like why do the deer do this? Or why do they do that? Like I'll give you a quick example here before we move on. I took one of my daughters out scout turkeys just like a week ago, and we went and sat and on this property we I have permission on and that the owner has one redneck blind on this food plot. It's a great it's great set up to glass turkeys just it just is right. So we went in there and sat and we watched a dough in

a fawn and then three bucks come out. Three shed bucks come out, And what they did was they're at that blind the whole time and feed in the corner of the food plot and kind of move off and browse and come back out. And then it got dark and they went past, but they I was like, they're still avoiding this blind, and like it kind of struck me as like you know, when you hunt there, like I hunted their Muzzloder season and of course the deer is super kGy because they've been hunted out of their

whole bunch. But in my brain that sort of shut off once the season ended, like I just assumed they would get real comfortable again. But we were talking almost you know, almost four well three and a half months out from the gun season or the end of the bow season, and those deer are still like that's the

danger spot. And it kind of made me realize, like I wasn't thinking about that correctly, but they are like they're still like we don't want to get close to there, even though we haven't had any negative interactions with that in months, it's still ingrained in there, and it kind of it was kind of an eye opener to me.

makes new ideas pop out. I mean, this is like a thing in writing, I'm sure in like all sorts of creative and creative endeavors, right when people have like writer's block, or people are struggling to write something new or paint a new picture or whatever. It is like a common practice is to you got to shake things up. You've got to put yourself into a new environment. You need to you know, create something new in your environment mentally or physically to then you know, get your body

and brain thinking differently. And so I think that same thing applies. So it's like in your case, scouting turkey's hunting turkeys, whatever you had this pseudo epiphany because you were in the deer hunting world but in a different time. I think similar things might happen, Like when you're out small mall fishing. I bet you when you're out small mall fishing, there will be moments when you're out there fishing and then all of a sudden you're like, man,

this is a lot like what deer do. And it's kind of funny because I realized that small mothor we you know, adjusting to this rock pile in a certain way, and that's just how a buck's going to use structure when he's traveling or I don't know what it is, but like there's probably these different, like analogous things that we can see or understand more clearly from our deer hunting world when we look at them through the lens

of something different. And that's I think that's like the whole thing that I'm hoping we can get at here today is like how we can do that a little bit better or examples of how we've done that at least, and maybe that's useful for other folks.

this I don't know how big of an area. It's not like a huge area at least from spring through fall. But they're not necessarily on that rock pile, you know, postponed to the you know, getting their feedbags on in the fall. You'll find them on there. Sometimes sometimes they're just not there. They're over on that sand drop, and it's you know, because a mental hatch or the crayfish

or molting or something. And I always think about that with white tails, because we talk about them like that buck beds in that swamp and he feeds in that field, and it's like, yeah, two out of every seven days he probably does that. But there are so many things going on that where that might have been affected by a predator, might have been affected by hunters, or it just could be that they felt like going the other

way and browsing or whatever. And we kind of try to boil this down to like there's a simple solution to this, right he here's his bed. I know he uses this, I know he feeds in that alfalfa simple but they don't follow that, like they that pattern is not like a day to day thing, especially if you get outside of that summer pattern bleeding into the fall season.

You know, like if you get in past the first couple of weeks of the September season, you know, if you can hunt that, those patterns start to die real quick. Those deer didn't probably move, but they're not they're not following what we think is like an A to B thing all the time. It's like so much more dynamic than that.

just not looking up? So we need to flip it. Go through there again. Now you don't get bit and you're like, they're probably not here because they should be biting. The sun isn't up yet, the conditions are right, then it's time to move. Or you know, like it's it's always I know you see this a lot, but it's always like you have this idea. You're like, I'm going

to go out and do this. They're going to eat this way, or I'm going to catch them this way, or I'm going to shoot a deer this way, and then you get out there and it's just never quite what you expect. You're out, you're making a million little decisions to just because it's just it just doesn't work that way. Like as much as we try to set it up to be like they always come into the

food plot. Now always kill them on Halloween, Like okay, well, now you have an east wind and it's eighty five degrees or whatever, like, it just doesn't work.

But take what you just learned about what works in small moth fishing, going to the next spot, testing a couple different things. If you don't see what you're looking for after those couple different tests, which might be a couple sits, or looking for certain amounts of sign in these areas or whatever it is, the way you're testing the theory like you're talking about, and then moving to

the next metaphorical rock pile. That's a perfect example of doing a non deer hunting thing and being able to recognize, oh, this is a thing that could be applied to deer hunting. That makes a lot of sense when think about it that way.

their fingers and hope the hunt happens there. And when it doesn't, they try it again, and they hope the weather brings them in, or the seasonal timing or whatever.

I see so many parallels when I'm out bass fishing to walleye fishermen that way, where it's like early season, if you've got some current or something, you know like they're gonna be they're going to be coming back from where they spawn and stopping at this point, in this point before they get into their summer pattern out on the lakes, and you know then they're going to be on a mud flat or a drop off or some

kind of reef or something. And so most of the walleye fishermen I see, they come out for three or four months and go to the same spots and they're like they're either biting or they're not. So they're either eating the worms I'm dragging or the minneros on a jig or whatever, or they're not eating. Well, what I started noticing the last couple of years is this like shiner hatch going on in August. And what happened is if I could find a bait ball, It's just like

fishing in the ocean. Walleyes northern is in Smallmouth are just following them around, and oftentimes they're pretty shallow and blown up on a wind blown island or shore or whatever. So what's happening is walleye fishermen are going. The walleyes are out here. They're either in ten feet of water, twenty feet of water or whatever. And if I if I'm catching them, they're here. If not, they're here, but they're not biting. And I'm in a situation where I'm

not looking for them. You know, it's bright sun, it's August, it's hot. They're in three feet of water, just gorging on this you know here today, gone to morraw food source. So all it is is like when you when you're a white tail hunter and you're like, I've got three stands, I hunt this farm and you go out there over and over again, and you're like, once every ten years, I get a shot at a big one and it's like, the big ones are there. You got a Montreal camera.

You know they're there. So what's wrong. You're not going to find them. You're you're only You're you're hoping that it happens the way you want it to happen. But that's not how it works because they know that they know you want it to happen there because that's where you always go. And I think we don't think about that, so we go, all right, well I didn't kill him on the opener. I'm gonna I'm gonna lay low during October. I'm gonna come back in and he's gonna he's gonna

follow a dough in during the run. And yeah, sometimes that happens, but to really be in the game. You have to look at it and go, if it's not happening for me, it's not because they're not here, you know, like it's it's because they're avoiding me, or they're doing something different. What is that? Like? How can you solve that problem? And that's the parallel to all this stuff we're talking about, is it's just like a series of proper problem solving over and over and over again, you know.

but to what degree it is. There's like a certain amount of like predicting moves and strategic decision making like that kind of thing. I think flex is a muscle that helps you make better decisions as a deer hunter. There's another kind of line of activities that are not deer hunting related but really help with a lot of deer hunting things. And it's something both you and I've

talked about some of the past. We're both pretty active and now and that's just like running or physical fitness, different stuff like that, right, And we've we've dabbled in this a little bit. But I think I find myself going deeper and deeper and deeper into this world and finding that A I'm getting like more enjoyment out of it, and B I'm seeing how it's translating into the deer hunting world. The more I like allow myself to do that,

you know what I mean. Yeah, So I think the last time we talked, I told you that I had signed up for that Mountain Trail run thirty k right, mm hm. So I've been training for that, and then in training for that, I realized, like, oh man, that thing's gonna kill me. I need to have like a training race leading up to that. So now I'm signed up for another trail half marathon that's like middle of the road elevation game, but still a lot harder than

anything I've done in the past. So that's coming up in a month and I'm actually like realizing that something crazy happened. I don't know if you do this or not, Tony, but for years I've just been like a road runner, and then now I'm doing more and more trail running and now I'm actually like really enjoying it. Like before it was the thing I knew I should do, and I did it and I liked it, but I kind

of didn't like where I was at. But now I'm finding places where I can like just be out in the woods, out in the hills or whatever, and that's just like fun just being out there and noticing things. And I've actually been trail running in some places that I can deer hunt the public Liane, I can deer runt, and I've been noticing like, oh, man, like look at that, or I'm bumping deer off a little knowle. I'm like, huh,

interesting how they're betting here. And so it's another interesting example of something that you know, I know, you preach all the time, which just finding excuses to be in the woods, finding any kind of excuse to be out there, and you don't have to be dead set focused on deer, but just being out there you have the opportunity to

have these little aha moments. You have the opportunity to have these little discoveries, and that's been popping up my deer in my running now more than I originally expected.

like I cannot wait to go running. I mean, there's a lot of times you're like this, I have to solve for this daily to find this motivation or more likely the discipline. And then you're like, okay, how do I hold myself accountable If I sign up for this, I'm not backing out. And then you discover along the way you're like, well, it's actually a hell of a lot more enjoyable to run through the woods than it is on the road, and that's a hell of a

lot more enjoyable than running on a treadmill. And so again, it's like, do something that challenges you at an incremental level, that forces you to hold yourself accountable and it feeds into everything else.

But that sounds like, man, that's gonna be great. That's the best part of my day. And that just took, like that incremental work. It took finding goals along the way, it took challenging myself to do these things, and it took like how do I find the version of this that's enjoyable for me? And like you said, that's a process.

You're you're enjoying the process. And I'm sure it makes you feel pretty good, you know, knocking another good run out at the end.

with it. And so in this case, like the analogy of running, for me, it's like just building a running foundation so that doesn't hurt when you're running right, so you can just like comfortably do it without it being miserable. Like I'm I'm, I'm enough of a runner now that it's not miserable to run. And then like the secret sauce more recently has been like this is like so obvious, but like go in a pretty place where there's not a bunch of people and you don't need to worry

about getting hit by car. What on aha moment that is and all of a sudden, like my run is looking around like, man, this is beautiful. I like to go hiking. I like to be outside hunting, Like this is just being outside and getting a better workout. That's like an easy win when you can make it enjoyable, make it good for you, and also like you are still building good habits that help you in so many other things too, right, discipline.

kind of take in the story or whatever. But I've also found there's been times where, for whatever reason, I don't, you know, my headphones are dead or whatever, but I'm going running and I'll do that, and I'll be like, man, I'm actually really enjoying this, just being able to think

through and kind of disassociate a little bit. And I read something a long time ago when I was kind of getting into this about how one of the biggest mistakes people make when they try to like become a runner or go to the gym and use the elliptical or whatever, it is like it takes them too long to settle into their routine on a daily basis. So you know, you get there, it's like, oh, am I going to log in a Netflix and watch a show? Or am I going to try to find a podcast

now or something? And like, so what you find when you when you sort of get into this habit is like you're managing it. Like if I have a podcast I really want to listen to, it makes me want to run more. Like it was just dumb, but it's true. And so you end up again you're you're solving for a problem you anticipate. In case, my motivation isn't there to just be like what can I do to make

this a little easier? You know, I look at this like I've been doing a lot of work in the white Tail Woods this winter because we've had such a mild winter, and it makes me feel so good because

I'm I'm way ahead of where I knew. I had a list of things I'm just gonna do, whether I do them in May, June, July, or December, January, February, whatever, and just getting to the point where I'm like, man, I feel so set up for my little girls already in Wisconsin on a lot of stuff and some of the things I want to do and just those like getting through those things, it helps you so much to get to the next one and the next one and understand what that process is, just for thinking about it

and planning around it and looking for that motivation.

make it rewarding. Like if you can do those things, that really makes it more achievable, and it's going to help you consistently do the thing you want to do. So whether it's scouting, or whether it's shooting your bow more often, or whether it's getting up in the morning and going to the tree stand, like anything you can do ahead of time, to make it obvious, to make it rewarding, to make it easier. So like in the case of going on to shoot, like I wrote, about

this in the Wired Dunt newsletter the other day. I want to shoot more consistently. If you want to shoot more consistently, ways you can do that are okay, Well, you need to trigger something that reminds you, oh I gotta go shoot. So okay, how about I hang the bow right by the door and the back door, so every time I walk it in out of the house, I'm reminded, oh shit, I got to shoot today, and

then make it easy. Okay, so how about let's make sure that you've got target right out the back door close so that you don't even need to like, not everybody can do this, but this is just an example. Let's say there's a target right at the back door, so you can see that trigger. Okay, there's the bow I got to shoot today. All right, Well, I got the target right there. I've got my arrows leaned up here in the corner. Let me just grab them. I'll get four arrows right now and just check that box.

At least get a little bit of a little bit of a session in right now, and then make it rewarding. So there's got to be some way, you know, to reward yourself after that. So maybe man if as long as I get my shots in today, I'm allowed to do X or I don't know what it would be in the case you made a good example, like when you go run, you're allowed to listen to the podcast

you want to get caught up on. Like there's different little tricks that we can incorporate to do the things we know we should do, but sometimes they're easy to slack on or easy to procrastinate on or whatever it is.

And I think that it's funny we came to this because of running, right, And I think that's why there's like the whole this ties back into what I'm talking about, Like we can learn how to get better at these things, whether it being building good habits or being disciplined or whatever it is, in something like running or some other sport you might be doing. And oh, by the way, that's all going to help you as a deer hunter.

like it's kind of just on you, like that. There's so much in life that you know, there's kind of this mentality out there a lot of times where it's like I gotta blame the boomer generation or I gotta I gotta like somebody else. It's somebody else's fault that I am where I am at, right, But when you talk about and you see this, I mean you see a lot of shitty stuff in the white tail world too, where it's like, well, if I had that guy's place, or you know, like if I had those opportunities, it's

like you don't. And it's easy to sort of get into that mentality, but really you just have to work with what you have. And if you're holding yourself accountable and not believing the lies that you want to tell yourself to make life easier, I think good things happen and it you know, we're so conditioned to want sort of instant gratification and we're so conditioned to want like

that shortcut. But when you do something that there is no way around it, Like if you're going to run a thirty k in the mountains, there's no way around it, like I don't care who your parents are, Like I don't care what genes you're drawing off of, Like you're just you don't start. You don't go from zero to that quickly. That is a year line. It's like retirement or anything else. Like, it's when you learn to hold your self accountable and appreciate these like baby steps and

building up some discipline, it goes a long way. And of course it feeds hunting like that's like, that's like a foundational skill that you have to have to be good at it.

I'm just feeling it. There's a lot of times like I had this last night where I lifted in the morning and I was like, I had a window where I could do a run before I had to go get my girls, and I did not want to do it. I was like, I just and I forced myself to go, and the first mile was torture, and after that I felt great and I felt so good doing it. But where I'm going with this is becoming a runner was really hard. Becoming somebody who lifts weights consistently was pretty hard.

But what it feels like now is a freaking vacation compared to my cardio days. And so this thing that at one point in my life was was very hard to do. You know. It's like it's humiliating going into a gym where you don't know anybody and you've never lifted, and you're you're super weak, and it's like you're you're hyper aware that you're not like a lot of other people.

And so now like now when I look back on that, like how far that I've come, Like, I'm like, that's like a that is not even it doesn't even feel like a workout the same way going for a six

or eight mile run does. And I'm like that, I feel so lucky to get into a spot like that in my life where just to get through that part and now enjoy it so much because I'll tell you what, dude, when I go hang stands or I'm working in the woods, like I've been cutting down trees like crazy that time in the gym, and you know, it directly translates to

like elk hunting really well, but white tails. You can do a lot of physical labor out there, and just the difference on uh, you know how I feel on like a traveling hunt where I have to set up a camp and carry stands in you know, we're often setting up for camera guys and stuff. So it's like that that is so beneficial to white tail hunting that I didn't I didn't do it because of that, and

I didn't think it would matter at all. And I tell you, like, I feel it all the time where I'm like, I'm glad I go do that because it makes this white tail work so much more tolerable.

that the takeaway here? Like for us it's running and you lifting, Is that kind of like the thing that we've found has been like one of those outside spheres of influence that's really helped us.

in that, you know, like advertising that. But for a lot of people listening to this who are like I would like to draw that iouad tag once or I'd like to travel to Ohio or from Pennsylvania to wherever. Just alone of even if you did twenty minutes a day or thirty minutes a day of something is going to make you more successful out there. And what it does for you is it directly translates to being able to do things better, like more efficiently, quieter, all that stuff.

But you're just more willing to do stuff, you know what I mean, Like you're more willing to like you know, I think about it this way. When you go on a public land white tail hunt somewhere and you've never been there, or you haven't been there in four years. Usually you get there and you're like, I got a way point here, I got a way point here, I got a wait point here, and you're like, I'm going to go in speed scout, speed scout, speed scout, figure

something out. And by the time you're like two or three deep, like do I want to settle or do I want to keep looking for that thing that's just like this is it? And what I found for myself is I just don't want to settle anymore. And it's just easier. The better shape I'm in, the easier it is for me to just walk into a spot that's a mile off the road and go I don't like it. You know, there's cattle in here or whatever, the ponds dry. It's just it's not right. And just keep going till

you find it. That stuff's important.

unquote right. And I found the opposite. I think one of the things, in addition to having some kind of physical habit that does the things we just talked about, I think another suggestion I would offer people within this world is to allow yourself the freedom to chase curiosities, to run down rabbit holes, and if it's going to take you away from deer hunting for a little while, if it's a thing that happens in the fall and maybe will take some of your time, I would argue,

do it. I think that chasing curiosities, chasing new ideas, trying new things, even if in the short term it might take away from your deer focus or your dear time or something, I think in the long run that can help both tangibly and I think intangibly with your satisfaction too. You know, there's this idea. There's another book I've been reading called Slow Productivity that Kell Newport, and one of the big things he talks about is this

importance of seasonality in your life. And his argument has basically been, you know, for thousands and thousands of years, human beings evolved with a certain seasonality to how we live. Right when, for you know, tens of thousands of years, we were hunters and gatherers across the board, and there

was you know, there was an up and down. There's an ebbing to the seasons in which there's times and you were doing a lot, and there's times you weren't doing so much, and there's times you did this kind of thing, and then there are times that you did this different kind of thing. And that was what we

evolved to do. And then even within the last ten thousand years when the agricultural revolution happened, there was still a certain seasonality for many, many, many many years as we all lived with the ebbs and flows of that agricultural up and down harvest, planting, et cetera. Winter. But now last one hundred two hundred years since the industrial Revolution, now it's like, you know, there's none of that for

most of us. It's cranking out every little unit of productivity for as many hours as you can get away with. And that doesn't just apply to work. That applies to our hunting too. I think, I think a lot of times we look at our deer hunting as if we are a factory trying to pump out filled deer tags. Right, So, let me read a quote from this book about this idea of seasonality, and kind of it's talking about work,

but sub in deer hunting. So he says the problem with the virtual factory, and he's talking about knowledge workers like people walking working in offices twenty four to seven. The problem with the virtual factory, however, goes beyond the fact that it makes us unhappy. It's also ineffective the process of producing value with human brain, the foundational activity of many knowledge sector roles can't be forced into a regular, unvarying schedule. Intense periods of cognition must be followed by

quieter periods of mental rejuvenation. Energized creative breakthroughs must be supported by the slower incubation of new ideas. So what he's getting at here is, if you want to be able to have your best ideas, if you want to be your most creative self, if you want to be your best version of yourself as a deer hunter, someone who's able to be effective, who's able to make those decisions,

who's able to problem solve. Having these periods of slow down, having these periods where you try new things, having these periods where you step away from the usual, all of that creates an environment where you do have this space to all of a sudden think of these new things, or the space to come back to deer hunting and be rejuvenated and ready to dig that next step or to do that next hard thing, or to you know, if you came off of learning how to do X, Y and Z, all of a sudden, you come back

to deer hunting next week and you're like, Hey, there's this thing I learned while I was learning to surf that actually has a whole lot of applicability here in the deer hunting world. So I think that that's another concept I kind of want to throw out there for us to think about, kind of related to that whole idea of like chasing different ideas and carry out curiosities. You know, my son is really getting into climbing, like early stages, but he's like really geeking out on like

rock climbing. We were just in Joshua Tree National Park and we kind of went there because he's like really fixated on this kind of thing. He's constantly wanting to pretend like he's climbing the walls and stuff. And so we're there in the park and climbing boulders and do all this kind of stuff, and I realized, like, Okay, I'm going to have to learn to do all this stuff because like I just need to make sure he's safe.

Like I need to make sure that I know enough to hang with him enough to help him safely navigate this until he's like old enough. So I'm going to be picking up a new hobby and figuring out and taking lessons and doing all that. And I used to say I would use in the past, I say like, oh man, you can't have more hobbies, you can't have new things you're learning. But I think now like it's going to be a net benefit. It's going to push me in new ways. I'm going to learn new things.

It's going to challenge me mentally and physically in different ways. And it might take me a couple of weekends away from the woods or something. But my argument to you, Tony is that I think that's actually going to circle back and be good.

be here. So it's it's curious for me to hear somebody who's like, ah, my little boys wants a rock climb, so I'm going to just do that. I'm like, man, more power to you, buddy. I think I mean, it looks amazing, Like I think it's I think that's an amazing activity to get into if you're wired for it. Yeah, I'm just it is not what that'd be like if you were like, hey, I'm going to just go take a bath with a bunch of spiders, I'd be like, that's exactly the opposite of anything I want to do.

ever see myself doing. But like there's people doing something, you know, don't know, climbing up there, fifty sixty seventy yards up, you know, one hundred feet up, one hundred and twenty feet up, Like I think I could do that, and I can. Like it's something I've seen from Afar from a long time, like just being active in like the outdoor recreation world, and like I've always admired that

and thought like that looks really cool. But I'm you know, a little bit nervous about it and just knew like it's a little bit intimidating, not just like the height stuff, but I mean, like there's all this gear you gotta get, got to learn how to do all this stuff, gotta learn the techniques and then physical different kind of physical challenge than anything I've done. But I guess having my son, who's like really getting into it now has been like

just that little extra nudge. And now I think I'm just at a place where I'm I guess I'm just recognizing how much value taking on these new things is giving me. Like I can now look back and see, like what the running thing and now the trail running things done in my world is like added so much, and like before that was like the fly fishing thing coming into my world. And I think all these things like I know it's all going to circle back and

help with my number one. And so that's why I guess I'm more willing to push outside of the norm because I see like it's it's it's it's filling the cup that then gives me more fuel for the rest of it, If that makes sense.

And he was picking them up for his kids, and I was picking them up for my kids, not even you know, you just see it. You're like, that's cool, put it in your pack, bring it home. Yeah. And then I, you know, I found a shed antler when we were blood trailing his buck. And what I realized is I gave them to my daughter and she's like, oh,

these are so cool. And then we did this Meet Eater Live event, you know, in December and Kevin Murphy brought us swamp rabbit skulls, you know, and I'm like, I don't as one does, right Anyway, I throw that in my pack and I bring it home and I'm like, my daughter thought it was so cool. So then we were looking up swamp rabbits and just you know whatever,

we went down the like rabbit hole. So it got me thinking when I went into her room for something, and I was like, man, she has a lot of like just stuff from us being out in the outdoors that I didn't know she picked up or agots or fossils or you name it. And I read about it just random on something and it was like, oh, that's a goblin shelf. And I was like that is like it's such a cool concept because we don't think about it.

I mean, I'm looking in your like you've got a bunch of shed antlers, and you're like we all kind of have this. Most of us have this version of ourselves where we like just find cool stuff and keep it. And when you think about that, that not only is that sort of the spice of hunting that you don't think about that makes it really cool, right, or fishing or whatever, like just being outdoors is like just the unknown, Like you might find something that just whatever works for you.

You know, you're on the beach and you find a shark's tooth or whatever. But then I started thinking about the times we're out there and how how easy it is when I'm with my daughters for us to get distracted from the mission and you know, walk up that ravine on the hillside and look for fossils, and then when you're doing that, you're like, oh, here's a deer

crossing I never knew was here. And so it kind of just got me thinking, I'm like, man, if you if you kind of open yourself up to the curiosity of just not being like I have to go skull so this, this, this and this, and that's my day done or my weekend done. But if you're like, I'm gonna just go explore, Like I'm just gonna go, like maybe maybe twenty percent of my mission is just to see this area I might deer hunt, but being real open to just whatever kind of trips my trigger and

keeps me out there. And I think that that is like an intangible to a lot of really good hunters. Is they just they're just looking at the world out there a little bit different than like, you know it take take like an over the counter elk hunt. A lot of people go out there and they're like, I'm gonna blow this bugle on every ridge I can until one sounds off. And you might do that the entire ten days you're there and not get a single response. And so you're like, that's a failure because I went

out with this plan and it didn't work. But if you go out there and you're like, I never get to be in the mountains, you know, like I you know, you know how it is. I'm like, I spend maybe ten days a year in the mountains, and I find so much cool stuff, just like plants and you know,

bear claw markings on the trees and whatever. And when you kind of go into it that way, and you're like you become a part of that environment in a way that's just like a little bit different than just like I gotta get in here killing el can get out and it leads to good stuff, like just looking for rocks leads to good stuff. And so I think going goblin mode is it's a good idea. That's why I wrote about it.

look at it and like it's it's not effortless. She's trying, but it's just she's just more naturally inclined to it. And so for me, just loving music and loving the idea of playing guitar, it's it's one of those things that I can do any I do it almost every day in my life to some extent, playing acoustic or whatever. But it is just kicks my ass consistently, Like it

is just hard for me. And I love that because I know, you know, it's just like if you look at going out on public land and killing a big buck, you know how hard that is. Like I don't care what state you're in, you know, it's it's just generally not that easy. But there are people who can do it consistently, and they can they can take different paths to get there. And I always look at that and I go if if why not me? Right, Like, why

not me? Like when I see an eight year old on YouTube who can play guitar better than me, I'm like, why not me? And it just it forces me to just keep keep working at it. And I think again, I think that you know, and you alluded to this earlier.

We have pretty easy lives a lot of us, Like if we if we have the free time to hunt white tails a lot, and you can listen to a podcast a lot, like your life is probably better than a lot of people in the world, you know, but without some level of challenge, like without without us being like I'm going to put myself in an uncomfortable situation and just like try to advance myself somehow, you just atrophy. I just believe that. And so, like guitar has been

one of the most frustrating things for me ever. I mean it literally is like when I first started bow hunting, and I was like, I don't know if I'm ever going to kill one. And then you know, when I finally started doing that, it was like, You're never going to kill a big one, you know, Like it it was like an almost almost unattainable thing. And so for a guitar. For me, I'm like, if I hear a you know, a song by tool or something like that sounds so amazing, I'll never be able to play it.

But sometimes if you sit down and you work at it, like over time, and you build like the parts of it real slow, it becomes something that you can actually do. And I love that about music.

I've learned this about myself where I have X amount of words that I can get out and then I got to do something else, And a lot of times I'll go, you know, turn on my electric or I'll go upstairs and play one of my acoustics for just like twenty minutes and I won't I won't think about I'm not learning anything new, I'm playing something I know or just messing around, and it is a mindless It's sort of like at certain points during a run where you don't think about the run at all. You're just

kind of in your head like your flow state. Yeah, you're you're out somewhere else. And for me, I can come back to the computer and write again, and it's just like it's just like a reset moment, and it is very important for me because there are times where I'll try to push it and it just does not work.

shot hoops for fifteen minutes, just like a kid. There's like a little kid like shooting hoops and like running around like by myself. I thought to myself, like anyone who's watching this grown adult at like one in the afternoon, and my hoop is lower because my kids are like my son's like trying to get better basketball, So it's

like a lower hoop. There's a grown man at one o'clock in the afternoon run around the court shooting like it might be a little weird, but it was just what I needed to kind of reset the gears, and I was able to sit back down the desk and do the thing.

so many ways. But if you can foster a beginner's mindset again, and if you can flex and exercise those like beginner learning muscles, it helps with everything else. So without remembering the specifics the basic gist of these studies, and the argument is like, by consistently tackling new things, like this year, I'm going to learn to climb, Next year, I'm going to learn the piano. Three years from now, I'm going to try to learn how to scuba dive. Like by doing that kind of stuff, it like helps

your synapses fire and connect differently. It makes future learning, It makes whatever other tasks you're trying to do cognitively, it makes it easier to do those things because there's something special going on in your mind when you're learning something new, and if you're working those muscles, and the only way you can work those muscles is by doing

the new thing, that then translates to everything else. I think I should have found these studies to be'll speak to because that perfectly proves the kind of idea we're discussing here, which is like man adding in these new things, learning a new hobby, whatever, it's going to come back and make you mentally or physically more prepared to do. In this case, the number one deer hunting focus for a lot of us.

going to get from that place. You've hunted a lot, and we so often look at it as only a means to go kill something bigger and not be in a different environment and not get better at this, And I think that's a huge mistake, Like I think, and I don't know how again, Like I don't know how you get people to understand that without just like go do it, Like just go see what that's like and

you'll realize. But you can't. You can explain that to somebody, but they're not going to understand it, Like why if I can kill one hundred and sixties at home, Like, why would I go somewhere and hunt one hundred inched to year? Like doesn't make any sense? And it's like because that's not what it's about.

I've I've experienced that, like that year I did the deer country thing, like really pushing what I tried, Like man, so many of those things have translated back to my usual in ways I never would have expected. There's there's a whole lot that can be learned by putting yourself into these new worlds.

the tackle shop. Just do what you gotta do, because I know what's coming.

just whatever. So I go out there and I walk out on that pier and I'm like, I know how to catch fish, and so I do what I do and I cast and I caught a barracuda on the first cast, and I was like, see, like I know what I don't and then dude, I could not catch a fish. Just it was like that one barracuda who was waiting there to make me look like I knew what I was doing. And then finally I'm like, I

don't know. So I did exactly what he said and it was non stop fish after that, and I was like, Oh, there's plenty to learn in this stuff that, you know, like we think we think we know, Like you know how it is. You talk to people who have a good place to hunt and they kill big deer and they're like experts, I can do it anywhere, and I'm like, I bet you can't. You know. I sat in a tree stand one time filming a show when I was at bow Hunter and the camera guy we were talking

about public land whitetail hunting. I was it was, you know, this was like ten years ago and I was on like a good run and a bunch of states, and he was like, yeah, I could do that if I had the time, and I was like, and I didn't know that much about him. So as we kind of got to know each other, at one point he called his dad, who had they hunt in southwestern Wisconsin, and

at that point you could bait. And he was telling his dad to go put out corn by his stands, and I was like, well, do you, like, do you hunt anywhere else? He's like, well, no, we just hunt down there on the farm. And I was like, I don't think you know what you're talking about that, buddy, Like, but it's you know, in your head, you're like, well, I killed deer here, so I'm I'm a good deer hunter.

And man, you know what it's like when you get out of your comfort zone, it's real easy to suck so much like, it's real easy to be so bad at it. But that's part of the.

to help you as a deer hunter. I think number three it's always keeping white tail mode kind of active in the back of your mind though, when you're doing these things as much as possible, so that you're open to these new ideas, so that you have the opportunity to have these like lateral thinking moments like I talked about, where you can connect the dots between what you're doing is on your small moll fishing trip, or what you're doing when you're playing chess with your buddy, or what

you're doing when you're playing the guitar, and all of a sudden you have this aha, like, oh man, this is the kind of thing that's actually gonna help me as a deer hunter. This is this is the way to solve that problem more. Man, that's a different way to approach the my access problem or whatever it might be, Like, You've got to put yourself into new environments, both literally

and figuratively to grow to get better. We need change, we need diversity, we need seasonality in our year, even to allow yourself like the mental space to come back to deer hunting, cot contrott and ready to go. I think those are like my big takeaways from this, and hopefully like my thought with all this was that through some of these examples of our own lives, it would either inspire folks to try some new things or help them realize, like, oh, this other stuff I've got it

is pretty valuable. I should do more of that. Or I can challenge myself in new ways, or I can convince my wife or husband that this is an okay to keep doing because it's helping in this kind of way. That's what I think we're trying to get here. Did I miss anything? What else did you add?

to do. It just takes. It takes a lot of repetition, Like you have to understand that, like whether it's you know, stacking up white tail seasons until you finally start getting things right, which is a multi year deal running whatever, just just the act of doing it, like committing to it daily, weekly, whatever. It doesn't have to be you know, forty hours a week, like twenty minutes a day matters a lot to a lot of stuff.