Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the Whitetail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on the show, I'm joined by Kip Adams, the Chief Conservation Officer for the National Deer Association, to discuss the state of white tails in twenty twenty four and the issues that we deer hunters need to be aware of. All right, Welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their Camel for Conservation initiative, which gives money back to the National Deer Association from
every purchase of First Light's spector Whitetail Camo. Big fan of the past, big fan of the program. Thanks for supporting both and our guest today works for the National Deer Association. As I mentioned in the intro, he is the chief Conservation Officer, Kip Adams. Kip is someone who hopefully you've all heard from and heard of. He's been on the show many times. He is a tremendous resource.
He has a wealth of information at his fingertips a wildlife biologist and now has been working for the NDA for a long time. One of the best educators, the speakers out there when it comes to dear related issues, dear education, dear biology, you name it, Kip can talk to you about it. And he is one of the people working on this Deer Report that the NDA puts out every year. This Deer Report goes through and compiles data on all sorts of different things related to the
deer population across the country and deer hunting. So today our conversation goes through what the main takeaways are when it comes to trends within deer hunting and deer harvest. You know, how are we doing? Is deer harvest up? Is it down? Bucks, dos AID, structure, all that kind
of stuff. We cover it. We also dive into some of the issues of importance that we deer hunters need to be keeping tabs on, maybe taking action on UH stuff like where things stand on chronic wasting disease, things related to ballot box biology and you know the changing composition of UH. You know, wildlife commissions in different states. The people who are overseeing are managing agencies UH do we need to do. We need to know about what's
going on there. We talk about the importance of prescribed fire. We talk about the importance of and if we can have any influence on, you know, deer UH donation programs, venison donation programs. We talk about the continuing challenges that we're having in many parts of the country managing our antalyst population. Why that's something that we deer hunters need to be paying attention to and acting on ourselves. So
that's kind of stuff we cover today. If you are a deer hunter here in America, this is something you need to listen to. I highly recommend you go and download a copy of the Deer Report for yourself. Review this information in its entirety. We cover just a fraction of what's in that report, but it's some important stuff. I think this is the kind of information that arms you to be not just a better deer hunter, but someone who can influence the future of deer hunting in
a positive way. Right, knowledge is power. We need to understand the landscape. We need to understand what's going on if we want to make sure that it stays good and healthy and around for us in future years and for our kids and our grandkids and all those that follow. So that's the plan. That's the podcast today. Kip always makes it interesting, he keeps it fun. This is a good one. I hope you'll tune in and enjoy the
restless episode. And I thank you for being here all right back with me now on the show for I don't know the sixth seventh, eighth appearance. It's been a lot. Now, Kip, I've got Kip Adams here with me on the line. Thank you for joining me, my friend.
Absolutely, it's good to see you, Mark. And yeah, I always always look forward to being with you once our annual deer report comes out, so we have done a bunch of them together.
We have. There has been not many years of the podcast in which we have not had you on the show to either review the deer Report or something similar. So I'm glad the trend continues. And before we get into the state of white tails across America, I have to ask, what's the state of white tails in the Adams family. How was the twenty four or the twenty three season for you?
It was it was a little slower than many. We've been very lucky in both my family and my hunting camp. We've had several really good deer seasons in a row, so we were due for maybe a little off season, and we had some really late frost this year late May. We had three frosts out of four days at the end of May, which is za all of our acorns. We lost all of our apples. We actually had some
oak trees will and we lost mature oak trees. What that means for us is that we have a bunch of other food sources, but certainly acorns you know, can make or break, not make or break, acorns can have a big impact on deer season. We had no acorns and no other mess, which meant we didn't see as many deer as we normally do, so we had a lot of fun. We put deer in the freezer. We still have a very traditional Pennsylvania deer camp with a bunch of family and friends there, so we had a
really good time. But it's the first time since twenty eleven that we did not kill a buck at our camp. So the two biggest bucks that we know we're there. We still had pictures of all the way through the end of our firearm season. We just never saw either of them. So we had a lot of fun. We didn't have as good of a year from a buck standpoint as we typically do, but that just means that they're going to be that much bigger and older next year. So high high hopes for the upcoming season.
So with that, with that the mass issues you talked about there, does that portend any kind of concern for the future as far as the impact that could have on you know, survival over the winter or anything, or or is that something you're not too worried about.
No, I'm not worried about that. You know, we're even we get some pretty hard winters here at times, but uh, you know, deer deer live way north of us and then do pretty well, you know, on winter. So even if we don't have you know, that mass, you know, our deer aren't going to die. It more impacts daily movements during our hot and season than anything else. We work hard to ensure that we have food throughout hunting season,
well throughout the whole year. But you know, where I live, it's mountainous in most of that those frosts were elevation related. So what that means is some of our neighbors had as and we didn't. So it's not like deer we're going to die. It's just man, with those acorns are hiding the ground, they just moved off of us to feed on them, you know, pretty close by. Two of
our neighbors had exceptional deer seasons. Uh, three of our neighbors that all touch us, we're kind of like us and just didn't have acorns and didn't see as much. But uh, and one of our neighbors stopped. They also manage a lot of habitat. They do a really good job with that. Said Kip, I don't know where all these bucks have come from, but we have never seen this many bucks in my life.
And I'm thinking, I know exactly what I think, because I mean, it's they join us, and so it literally, you know, you know how good deer are just finding where the best food is, you know, within there.
You know, it's not like these deer are leaving and going miles. You know, they're just shifting a little bit. So so anyway, no, deer aren't going to die. And I fully expect, you know, us to have a really good year this coming year, so hopefully we'll we won't have any of these late from us, we may be able to take advantage of some of the mass that we have. Yeah.
Man, it's funny how it can be so on and off hot and cold year to year, little little changes in habitat weather, it can it can really change the experience you have when you're on a you know, a relatively small area. It's kind of like during the rut right every year, people like to say, ah, the rut was late this year, or the rut we must have
missed the rut, we didn't see it. There's always folks that are making these big claims based on what they saw just on their eighty acres or one hundred acres or twenty acres. But it's so it's so hard to miss the big picture when you know it might have been dead for you this week on you're eighty, but then like you just said, you know, five hundred acres over the other side, they're just on fire. It's it's very hard to see that when your own experience is so different.
Yeah, I tell people, you know, we we love to we as hunters complain about our state wildlife agencies and this, and then you know what I tell them, Hey, you know, like they manage deer at the wildlife management unit level. We don't hunt that level, you know, we hunt at the property level. So you know, in any given management you'll have areas where there are a very few deer, way too many deer, and everything in between. So you
are exactly right. We like to think of the exact situation we're having is what all hunters have, and that that's just not the case at all. So, you know, managing habitat and managing hunting pressure help us, you know, put the odds in our favor that we will continue to have really good hunting. And you know, in most cases that works out. You know, sometimes with extreme events
that doesn't. But I'll always want to err on the side of that, and you know, continue to do habitat work because I know, nine times out of ten, that's definitely gonna help us see more deer and as long as we're passing younger bucks older bucks as well.
Yeah, So this this idea of trying to look at the bigger picture and recognizing that what you are seeing in isolation in your back forty or in your county or whatever, that might not be the case at the state level or the nation level. I think that probably speaks to a bit of the purpose behind the Deer Report that you guys put together. Right, What are you guys trying to achieve with this every year? I mean, it makes for great talking points for us to have
a podcast once every twelve months. But when you guys sit down and put this information on paper and send this out to the world, what are you really hoping comes from it?
Well? I think strictly education, and we provide information that helps hunters see what's going on in their area, what's going on in their state, how that compares to their neighbors and other regions. It helps natural resource professionals with the same because many of the issues that somebody in Michigan is dealing with. It helps your dear biologist to be able to take a look at a map and say, oh, you know what Pennsylvania's dealing with the same thing, or
Iowa is, or oh wow, Mississippi does this way different. Really, so, you know, the audience are or is deer hunters, but it's also just dear enthusiasts, deer managers, the media, et cetera. So it's most helpful if we can understand what's going on outside of just our area that we hunt, and then also kind of what's going on around the country. You know, there may be somebody else that's with a similar issue that has a great answer for where you are.
So anyway, that's the idea of it. Let's collect the information that we can and then put it all together and then be able to share that. In some of those chapters, you know, we provide our analysis of oh this is good or this is bad. Some of them we just put it all together and share like, hey, here, here's a look at what's actually out there. So I think hunters are more engaged than ever before, and that's
a really good thing. And you know, we've been doing this since two thousand and nine now, and I really appreciate hearing back from the State Wilife Agency, dear biologist, how helpful it is to them too, because they can see how you know, take drones for example, you know, drone is a big issue today. So we have a chapter this year looking at where are they legal? Where can you use them for deer recovery? Where can you not? And so we get questions not only from hunters but
from state wilife agencies about that as well. So hopefully it's an educational thing that can help you know, a whole suite of people who are interested in deer.
Yes. So if you had, you know, after going through all of this data from across the different states, from the surveys you've collected from all of these different agencies, if there was one headline that you wanted deer hunters in America to take away from this, If there's one important takeaway from the twenty twenty twenty four still get my years mixed up? In the twenty twenty four Deer Report, What's that single most important thing that we walk away from this year's from.
We have historically high buck harvest rates right now with the oldest age truck sure we've ever shot, which is unbelievable. I'm not going to say that is my number one thing, though, because we have been edging toward that the last few years and sharing that information. So we're in the golden age of deer hunting right now. However, my number one takeaway from this, which is shocking to a lot of hunters.
It is really shocking to non hunters, and it's maybe less shocking to deer managers, but pretty pretty impactful there as well, is that less than half of all the hunters that go to a field each year shoot a deer. Less than half, you know, think about it. Michigan, you have a two buck limit, you can kill multiple analysts deer. Pennsylvania, I have a one buck limit, but I can kill multiple analysts deer. You know, some states you have a multi buck limit and multiple ant like Georgia you can
kill ten dose with your tag. So we think hunters non hunters alike. Man, we are just laying deer out. The reality it is, oh Mark, less than half of all the hunters that go deer hunting every year are going to shoot a deer, and only a small number shoot more than one. I know you shot a deer. You're in the minority. I know you shot more than one deer this year. You are in the real minority of hunters. People who are avid like you and me and a lot of your listeners. We look at like, man,
everybody's killing deer. That's not true. Less than half the hunter shoot a deer. I think that's pretty amazing.
Yeah, that's pretty eye opening. But what's the what's the what do we do with that information? Like, what's the what's the action item? Or why does that matter? I guess it's it's interesting. But by in us recognizing like, oh wow, most hunters aren't killing deer, what does that mean for us as hunters or managers moving forward? Does that mean there's an education gap, like hey, people need to learn how to be more successful? Or is this
a for a managing agency? Oh wow, even though you're selling all these licenses, the minority of them are the ones who can actually take enough action to manage the population. So therefore we need to do something differently. What's the next step now that we know this?
I think there's two parts of that. One is the next step for wildlife agencies is that you know this allows them to know how many antlelist tags they need to issue to you know, to meet their harvest objectives, or be able to share this information with hunters from a strong educational campaign. Hey, you know, if they want them to shoot more ant list deer, you know, Hey,
here's the reality. Here's why we need you to shoot more because most people aren't shooting in it or from a disease standpoint, if you're in a disease zone and you want hunters to shoot more, it's important for them to realize just by saying, hey, here's an extra tag, that doesn't mean it's going to be you know, a filled tag, or there's a deer. It helps them to know what percentage of hunters are actually doing this, so they can then do the best job to meet their
target harvest goals. Most states, not all of the most states go into the deer season with, you know, an idea of Okay, here's how many deer we want to kill in these different different units. So knowing how many hunters are in those units in the success rate of those hunters allows them to do the best job meeting their their harvest objective. That keeps them from over harvesting or under harvesting deer herds. So that's very good from
the hunter end. This is important to know because you know what I thought we were, you know, like eliminating deer herds, or we're reducing deer herds to the point where I didn't need to take an extra deer, or I didn't need to shoot that dough. But you know, I can hear my agency asking me to do this, and if the reality is there's only a very small percentage shooting multiple deer, okay, maybe I will you know, help you manage these resources even more by shooting an
ant list deer or shooting an extra antlist deer. Maybe I can then donate that to a needy family. So it helps people be better stewards, you know, if they understand, hey, here's exactly what's happening on the playing field.
Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. So, so a few thoughts on her questions around herd management as we're talking about some of the things you mentioned there, you know, managing the dough herd. You mentioned that our yearling harvest is the lower low sever been and the three and a half or older harvest is as high as it's ever been. So, you know, for as you mentioned, for several years now, we've been right around that mark. Kind of feels like maybe we've found like an equilibrium. Possibly.
This has been a mission of the organization you're part of, formerly, the Quality Deer Management Association, for years and years and years was trying to get a more healthy age structure, a healthier deer herd. When it comes to age structure nationally, when you average it all out, it seems like we have seen you know, leaps and bounds of growth there
and improvement. So the question is if if that is a message that has gotten across and we're seeing strong, strong progress there, especially in the southeast, but the better in most places. It seems like, what's the next major focus area for herd management that we hunters really need to focus in on. We talked about this last year in the year before a little bit, so it might maybe your answer is going to be the same thing.
But I'm curious now here in twenty twenty four when we're looking at, hey, how do we make sure we're managing this herd appropriately? For a long time it was past that young buck. What's the next thing? What's the yes?
And to that, it's in much of the United States harvesting additional ant list deer. It is increasing the antlerus harvest to appropriate levels to keep deer herds where well we need them to be relative to the you know, how much habitat there is. In some cases that means really reducing the deer herd locally. In other cases it might be just slightly reducing the deer. But the fact that for many of the hunting seasons in the past decade, we have shot more antler bucks than antlyst deer. That's
not a good thing. Like there are some states that, yes, that's a recipe for success. New England comes to mind. State's kind of on the fringe of good white tail habitat. But for most states, that's a recipe for disaster. If we're shooting more bucks than we are analysts dere So that's really the next step. We have done a great job as a hunting culture protecting those younger bucks. We have the best age structure we've had in the last one hundred and fifty years from the buck end, so phenomenal.
Now we can just manage that and go through that's the healthiest for deer. It's obviously great hunting opportunities for us. But now we need to look at again at the ant list side and say, okay, let's make sure that we're being good Steward's here and shooting enough ant list deer, because if we lose that part of it, that all
that gain we have in bucket structure doesn't matter. We need to be having the right number of deer for what our habitats can support, and we do that by having the appropriate analysts.
Harpers. Yeah, forgive me for the fact that we talk about this a nauseam, But can you give us the cliff notes rundown again on how balancing that side of the herd helps the health and quality of the deer and of hunting opportunities down the line too. So buy more effectively managing our ant list deer population. So by killing some more dose we're appropriate. Can you just give us the quick rundown on the trickle down effects on how that helps all these other things that we care about.
Sure, from a deer herd, everything starts by having the right number of deer for what the habitat can support. Deer can exist above that line, but they're being nutritionally deprived, and nutritionally deprived, they're not able to express their body growth potential, their antler growth potential, their fond production potential. So there's a lot of hunters that hunt in herds that are being nutritionally deprived simply because there's not enough
food for numbers of deer. Now, I will be the first to say I like to see a lot of deer when I go hunting. I get it. There's nothing wrong with that. So hunters don't need to apologize for that or try to get around it. When I'm not seeing many deer, you know, I'm the first to begin itchy, like, hey, something's not right. However, we want to have a deer herd in balance with how much the habitat can support.
We do that by harvesting analysts deer to bring it down, but also increasing the quality of that habitat so it can support more deer. But when we're in a skewed situation, that's not good for deer because they're not getting enough to eat, and since they can negatively impact that habitat, they degrade the habitat, which means that five years from now, well it can support even fewer deer, which is not what we want. And it's also negatively impacting numerous other
wildlife species. So if you have too many deer, nothing good happens. So let's correct that by shooting analysts deer. Now we have a habitat that is healthy, can can support more deer. It is also good for other wildlife species, which long term is best for us as hunters. And then once a deer herd is in balance, then they get enough to eat and they get enough high quality food.
Da It would be like if you or me, you know, We may have all the rice cakes we want through the ear, you know, but we can eat the heck out of rice cakes, you know, and we're not going to be big and strong. It just doesn't happen. So hey, let's get us enough to eat, but also get us good stuff to eat. That's what we do by managing habitat and making sure that there's not more deer than the habitat can support. Some people think, man if I shoot that dough, I'm hurting my future hunting. The reality
is that's not true. You are helping your future hunting by making sure that deer are getting enough high quality food to eat. So long term, it's way better for us to make sure we achieve those appropriate antelis harvest goals.
Yeah. Now, I think there's another risk to not managing our anteer list deer herd, which is something that was alluded to in an email that my whole State of Michigan, the hunting population in Michigan received last year from our deer biologist, in which he pleaded with hunters in Michigan to get more serious about trying to harvest antalysts deer, especially in the southern two thirds of the state. Where deer populations are largely out of control. He spoke to
the fact that our analyst harvest continues to decrease. We are killing significantly more bucks than does now. And I can't remember exactly how this is phrased, but there was something in there along the lines of if we can't write this ship, if we can't start managing our analysts heard hunters as a tool for managing the deer population, will be might be deprioritized. We might lose our job to some degree, or we might be threatened to some
degree with the opportunity to do that work. By that, I mean there are some places now that are looking at other ways to manage their deer herds outside of just hunters, because hunters haven't been able to put the numbers down to where they need to be. Can you speak to that a little bit? Is that a real risk? Is that something that ten years down their line, twenty years down the line, could have ramifications on our hunting opportunities and our place within this whole management system.
Well, I think the answer is yes today because hunters provide a free ecological service to society. You know, we harvest deer, which is great. We help keep deer herds in balance, which is great, you know, and we're not charging society to do that. We buy the hunting licenses and the gear in effect, you know, pay for our wildlife management programs by pumping that money in. So we
are champions of society. We get to have that opportunity, though, because society allows us to only about four percent of the US population buys a hunting license. So we'd like to think, yeah, I'm going to hunt, and I'll always get to because it's my god given right, and I wish that was true, but we don't get to do anything in the United States because four percent of us want to do it. We get to hunt because about eighty percent of the American public supports hunting. Even though
they don't hunt, they support legal, ethical, regulated hunting. So because that part of society allows us to hunt, we should do the best job we can be in the best stewards possible and manage those hurts. So, as hunters, when we choose to not shoot enough deer to keep deer herds where they need to be and deer human conflicts continue to rise, crop damage, forestry damage, deer vehicle accidents,
et cetera. Society will find another way to solve that problem, and as hunters, we don't want them to find somebody else, because you know, we want to continue to hunt. This doesn't mean that we're not going to be able to continue hunt in the future. I'm not saying that, because I believe we will. But right now we are by far the primary way that all wait til herds are managed,
and I want to keep it that way. So if we don't solve the problem, society will find somebody else that helps hunters solve that problem or manage that deer herd, and that that may be good for hunting, but there's a really good chance that hunters won't like that, so me included. So I want us to continue to do the best we can and by projecting a good public image, which today hunters in large part do, that's very good.
But we also need to make sure that we are managing the deer herd appropriately, following what our state wilife agents are asking us to do. The non hunting public doesn't want to hear the agency say we need you to shoot more deer and then hunters not do it. So so I think what you asked about is a very legitimate question. I'm not a fear mongerer by any means, and I'm an optimist by nature, So I'm looking at just what I know from the last thirty years of
managing deer and hunting deer. So yes, I think there's a real chance in the future in places where we just failed to do the job, that society will find something else. We're seeing this in other countries right now, so you know, it's not that big of a stretch that you know, we can see the same thing here.
Yeah, I think we need to We need to get ahead of that, right, We need to stay on the front end of that and keep those conversations from having to bubble up, which I think leads to a need for folks to for that two percent or whatever the number of people who kill multiple deer. So what we're what that original data set points to, is that the proportion of the hunting population that is actually currently making a dent in the deer population enough to manage it.
We're talking a very small group of the hunting population. So if there's ten million deer hunters in America, what was the percentage that kills multiple deer seventeen percent?
Is that right, Yeah, less than one in five.
So seventeen. Yeah, So we've got a real small sliver of the hunters who kill more than one deer. So those of the people who currently right now are having some kind of influence that within that group. For good reason, there is for many hunters a a pretty darn close one to one correlation between kill deer, eat deer right or or close to it, or kill deer, give deer to friend, or kill deer share with family at the
pot luck. But what we're seeing is that there are more deer that need to be killed then I can personally eat myself, right, And so that is where I think we need to have these conversations about, Okay, how do we a make sense of that and come and make that kind of math add up for us, Hey, if I'm going to kill more deer, how do I feel okay about doing that in a way that I don't feel like I'm wasting this meat or inappropriately taking from the landscape and then making it possible for that
meat to go to good causes like these different hunters feeding the hungry programs making it easier to share meat, to donate meat. It seems like that's something that needs to continue to grow, because it's actually getting harder to donate meat here in southern Michigan, and my local meat processors aren't taking it anymore. I think in states with
CWD issues, that's becoming more challenging. So I think that is likely another one of these things that we'll have to continue to address to make it easier to make sure that we kill the number of deer they need to be killed, and that that meat is going to a good cause and that hunters feel good about doing that work.
That's right, And I think that is the single largest issue that we need to solve, is that venison donation opportunity. As you said, some states have it make it very easy, some states not at all, And in most states there's still a hunter has to pay for part of that. And you know, like, you know what, I if I can donate a deer and help somebody, if I have to pay a little bit, Okay, I am into this,
you are into this. We may do that, but for the average hunter who it might have, you know, it might have been difficult to even get a hold of that analyst tag or to pay for it, and then to pay an extra twenty five to fifty or whatever to have it donated. You know, that's a real barrier. So I firmly believe that we have to make it as easy as possible free to hunters. If you want to donate this deer, it doesn't cost you a penny,
you know. Okay, you have to get it to the processor, so you're going to pay some gas or diesel, but you're not costing a penny. And I think that's where society legislation can help by providing, you know, enough into those programs. Right now, hunters fund them, which we fund all this other stuff, you know, because we want to, But the bill is bigger than what we can fund, so I think we have to solve that. To provide
that avenue for those deer, that would be great. The second part is we have to have much stronger public education campaigns from our state wilife agencies encouraging deer, encouraging deer hunters to shoot those extra analysts deer, but they have to explain why and how that will benefit them. Some states have been really successful with strong campaigns. Most just haven't got in enough, you know, for those two
be successful. But there are examples of where states have done that and have moved the needle.
To your first point of that statement, that being there, there likely needs to be some larger mechanism to help pay for this, to fund these kinds of programs. Is there any Is there any example of a state that's found a way to do that well or be Is there any progress towards this? Have there been people floating bills to develop some kind of nationwide pot of money
for something like this or program. Is there anything to point to and say, hey, let's get behind this, or do we really literally need to build something from the ground up.
I think we need to build something from the ground up, but we at least have examples, the most recent being the CWD Research and Management Act. I think there's been so much push from the CWD and in the past several years, and rightfully so, that there just hasn't been a push from the venison donation. Most states, or maybe all states, have some type of venison donation programs. Some
are way better than others. Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry that's based out of Maryland is one of the best. My family has donated many deer through that program and it is phenomenal, but even that program runs out of money in Maryland each year, so there is a bigger
need for those. I'm not aware of a larger now push with that, I don't get as involved with the policy anymore so as possible there is I don't think so though, Mark, But there's definitely an avenue for that that we have seen with other things, So that would be a great thing for hunters to get behind.
Yeah. Well, interestingly, there's a direct connection between CWD management and this kind of program, right because if we could better address the donation of deer, we might be able to encourage a more appropriate management of deer herds, which then helps you mitigate the spread of CWD by reducing
densities unnatural densities where it's a problem. So I almost wonder if there might be a way to tap into future CWD earmarked funds to fund a program like this, because you know, we were talking this past summer, there was a CWD someone I was at and one of the single most important action items that's so simple but would make such a big difference and continuing to address the spread of CWD is just take another antelus deer get folks to do this job. More effectively, more consistently.
If we can just do that, it serves as such a speed bump for cwds spreading faster and further. So this seems like it could be a very action oriented way to actually make a difference on the whole CWT challenge too.
You're right, they definitely are tied together, so there's a relation between you know, those and then in those disease zones it's even more important to shoot extra deer like that. So yeah, there's a lot of tie ins. The state of Maryland several years ago had a great way that they actually dealt with this. Of course, Maryland is small, there's only three counties, but they had drop boxes where hunters could just take, you know, to these coolers put
your deer in. They ended up having all these deer processed at their their state jail where they actually talk the inmates to process me. So the inmates were learning a ski bill. It was literally pennies to process these deer. It was. It was a tremendous example of hey, let's just sit down and figure out how to solve this. The deer went to these coolers, agency staff picked them up, they took them to the jail. The inmates actually processed all of this. It all went out to the food banks.
It was a tremendous example of you know what, when we were sitting down and work together, you know, we can make things happen. So that was pretty cool how they tackled that.
Yeah, that's a that's a great example of just simple problem solving right there and finding solutions. So CWD. Since that's since we're talking about it, we might as well dive into that a little bit further. Can you give us an update on where things stand in twenty twenty four when it comes to chronic wasting, chronic wasting disease, the spread of it, updates on research, anything new there that we need to know about.
Well, we're up to thirty one states now. The disease continues to spread, finding it in new areas like Florida, like Alabama, you know, some some states down in the southeast. Now. Fortunately, hunters understand more about the disease than ever before, so we're not seeing it as much as these scare tactics and you know, oh, I'm going to quit hunting because this unknown. There's enough information today to tell hunters, hey,
here's what we know about it. There's still a lot we don't know, but you know what, we're finally seeing some successes relative to to manage it. We know more about how to predict where states will find it, which is a good thing because as soon as we find it, then the state can get a better idea of how long has it likely been there? Is it pretty new? Has it been a while? You know, what's the prevalence rate within that deer herd? Because based on those things,
they attack it differently. So we at least know more about predicting where we'll find it. We have better tools today to test for it. Luckily, there's there's more equipment available so that hunters can get that test back sooner. Perfect example, we had a chapter in our annual report a couple of years ago on what's the turnaround time nationally? It was like two to three weeks from when a hunter would turn a CWT sample in until they would
get the results. That's a long time. We need to do better than that.
This year, my.
Home state of Pennsylvania average turnaround time five days, so that is a huge gain. You know what, if you're processing your own you know you're probably hanging it for that long anyway before you process that, so you have your result back if it's at if you take it to a processor within that time, you may not have it back anyway before then. So anyway, the faster turnaround time is way more convenient for hunters and allows you to better handle that meat if it turns out to
be positive. So my take is, hey, let's continue to push that envelope in the future so we get that down even more. You know, we're not real close yet to an infield test. It would be great if in the field you could take a blood sample, take a DNA sample, ear chip something and quickly know what it is. We're working towards that. You know, that's not going to
happen in the next year or two. But the fact that today the average turnaround time went from two to three weeks to you know, less than a week in the state, Hey, that's a big gain. And we know that actually running the test is very quick. The time is getting the sample from the drop boxes to the
lab and then back the hunters. So as now that as we have better technology to test those, we can increase the number of machines that do that testing and increase some of the logistic you within these states to get the samples quicker, which means we can we can reduce that turnaround time even farther. So that's a that's a huge gain for hunters. That's a big win for us.
So there's a lot of things we don't know, but we're finally starting to see some successes in the fight and that's encouraging and that helps more hunters feel like they can make a difference in get engaged.
Yeah, the CWD Research and Management Act was signed into law last January, I believe, so we've been in it about twelve months now. Has there been anything has any action come out of that yet? Have we seen any important things be funded by that bill? Has anything been made possible yet by that? Because it was it was hailed as a big success at the beginning of last year. Are we seeing anything from that yet? I guess is what I'm getting.
To that has not this year because that puts seventy million to management, thirty five for research and you know, thirty five for monitoring and surveillance, which is a great well all of that money wasn't asked for last year. States weren't didn't survive, So long story short, through our policy work and other wildlife agencies or other NGOs and wildlife agencies, we're able to get out to the states and say, hey, you know there's money that we can
get for this. So that you can get for this that's not being requested right now, let's increase you know, all of these asks from a research into that because the money will not be appropriated if the states aren't effectively asking for all that, they're spending more than that, you know, they're just taking it from other programs. So hey, now we have a means to do this. So the biggest thing this year was getting states in line to be able to request money from that to make sure
that it's fully appropriated. So that is a big win for the CWD fight. We have this. Now, let's get states in line to be able to pull as much as possible from that so that they can they don't have to rob from all of their other programs to fund CWD management and research in their state.
Yeah, so what about on the hunter side of things? So where we stand today, I don't think things have changed, but I'm curious if there's anything else new that we have discovered over the last year that changes at all the best practices. So what are the best practices KIP for a deer hunter today in twenty twenty four. If you want to be a good steward when it comes to doing the right thing when it comes to CWD
as a deer hunter, what does that entail now? Given any new information we have or not any information?
The best thing for a deer hunter and I firmly believe that every one of us can engage in this fight and help one know if the disease is in the zone your hunting or not, whether that's at home or your travel. And it's super simple to do that. We work with on X They have a CWD layer on there on the app, so regardless of where you are in the United States, you can look and see am I in a disease zone or not? It's a free layer on there. There's no reason to not know
if you're in the zone or not. And if you are, there's additional information that we reference back to all the state wildlife agencies that show, hey, where are drop box locations? Do I need to provide a sample or not? And if so, where can I go? Do it? Are there? You know, all of that stuff is right there. So it's super easy for hunters so know if you're in the zone or not, and if you are, don't move the high risk parts of an animal out of that
zone if you shoot one. The high risk parts are eyes, brain, spleen, backbone. Because one of the things that's bad about the disease is if I come and hunt with you and we're in a disease zone in Michigan, we both shoot a deer and we'd take them home. If I bring those high risk parts home and discard them on the landscape, I literally could have been moving that disease to my area.
And another deer that come in contact with those remains, or the soil around those remains, or the plants going on the sore on them around those remains, they can then contract the disease. So that is a way that's very easy to move the disease, but it's something that hunters very easily can fight. Don't move those high risk parts. That, more than anything else, will help us. And you see people you know with deer in their trucks and the trailers are hauling them across state lines and and you're
seeing states get really serious about it. Kentucky and South Carolina both busted hundreds big time fines for bringing deer into their states. So it's it's not okay for a hundred to say, well, I didn't know the rules. Well, you know what, if you're a hunter, hey, let's be responsible. Let's know the rules. And so if you're in if you're hunting his zone, don't move those high risk parts.
Every hunter can do that mark and that is the single best thing we can do to help keep or help limit the spread of the disease.
Yeah, pretty simple but impactful. So, like you said, no excuse not to know about that and to do the right.
Thing and tell our buddies. Yeah, tell our buddies, no, don't let them. I was in Elk camp in Colorado a few years ago. A guy there who happened to be in camp with a shot and Elk was going to take the head home to another state. And I said, you are not leaving this camp with that head. You know, boil it. And there was an opportunity we could boil it, get the brain out, get the eyes out, whatever. And he said, I'll have my taxi or mister home doing I said, you're gonna do it here, like I will
not let you leave here. Like I didn't know that guy before we got there, but I said, like, this is a big deal. He ended up leaving a day early. I was out hunting. I got back to camp that night and he was gone. I was furious. All the other guys at camp said, we told him, like, Kip
is not going to be happy. So the guy broke the rules, which is wrong, But I was more upset about, you know what, you are risking all those deer you know back in your home state where you're going, because you're going to take it back there and dump it. So so not only can we not move him, but we need to make sure our hunt bodies know, hey, this is important. Don't you move them either.
So yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. And peer pressure is a whole lot more effective than a state agency telling you what to do, right, you know, putting the pressure in a positive way with your buddies, making sure they know the right thing to do and give them a little incentive to do so is probably going to is going to help get the right thing done more so than a pamphlet from the DNR. So yeah, we got to do that. We got to be those people.
So speaking of pieces of paper, one of the issues you highlighted which I found interesting in the report this year was fire. You guys made a point to dive into whether or not states have prescribed fire consoles, whether they have prescribed excuse me, prescribed fire assistance available in different states. And I'm curious, why was this something that you guys wanted to shine a light on and talk
about and make sure folks were aware of. Why is fire and prescribed fire of importance to the deer hunting world these days.
Prescribe fire is a tremendous habitat enhancement tool for wildlife, for deer, but for a whole host of other wildlife species. At the National Deer Association, we're big fans of using prescribe fire where where folks are able, and we wanted to get in a national snapshot on just how much of this is being used and where is it being used, because in areas where it's not, hey, maybe there's an opportunity for us to help folks in those areas have
the ability to use more fire. I'm a member of the Pennsylvania Prescribed Fire Council, so my part on that is we do a lot of burning in Pennsylvania now and public land. I want to see more of that happen on private land. Private landowners want to use it, so let's make it more available to them. So as much as anything, we want to just highlight the value of fire that people realize that, Hey, let's look at where it's it's mostly being used. We knew it was
used a lot in the in the Southeast. I know it's used a lot of the Midwest. I'll admit, you know, I was a little surprised at where the numbers came out, and of course the numbers that agencies showed on because we asked them, Hey, how many acres of areas are burned us and prescribed fire under state annually. Some states have a really good measure that some not as much. But nationally, you know, it was just under nine million acres,
which is certainly a minimum estimate. It's probably a lot more than that, but at least we have a baseline, you know, of that nine million, six million of it was in the Southeast, so and then almost all the rest was in the Midwest. It was only you know, a couple hundred thousand acres that we know of in the Northeast, So the Midwest burns a bunch as well, which was very cool. So lots of opportunity, you know, to increase use of fire in the Northeast, which historically
fire was used tremendously throughout the Northeast. So Southeast does a real good job using it and recording it. The Midwest does a good job using it and recording it. But we have lots of opportunities to gain in the northeast.
Would it be fair to say that this is something that's important to get on folks radar more often though, because we're seeing in so many places a homogenization of habitat and a lot of places a maturing of forest, especially in so many places where we're getting you know, there's a lot of forest management issues, right, I know you guys have tackled that and talked about that in the past, and more and more we're losing early secessional habitat.
We're losing grasslands and prairies and all that kind of habitat that's super important for deer, but especially important for turkeys and upland birds and grassland birds, songbirds, pollinating insects, all that kind of stuff. All these critters that are part of the ecosystem. They're increasingly across the nation losing the kind of habitat that they need. Fire is one of the greatest ways to put that back on the landscape, right, disturbance.
We need disturbance to create diversity, to create the kinds of habitat that so many creatures need, and that's a disappearing thing these days. Is part of the highlight here being like, hey, this is important and it's not as hard as you think it is because there is this assistance available.
It is that and it's in many cases the least expensive perak or option to to manage a habitat. And so there are you know, there are things that we can do on many of those different vegetation types you know that may not simulate fire, but ways to manage them. They're all more labor intensive and more expensive. So by allowing people to know, hey, this is a tool and this is a really good way to manage you know, a lot of acres are get the most bang for
your buck relative to what you're managing. That is part of it. But it's also important for folks to understand maybe I'll never use fire, but if I see smoke over on my neighbors. This is you know, this can be a good thing. Culturally, we are in many places in the North we are losing that connection to using fire. And if you want to use a chainsaw or you want to use a bush har or herbicides on your land, it doesn't matter what your neighbor thinks, You're going to
be able to do that. But if you want to use fire on your land, it does matter what your neighbor thinks because that smoke may go over on his or her land. So the more people that understand the benefits of fire, even if they're not going to use it, the fact that they understand it and accept that it's practiced in their area helps everybody be able to use fire because in many cases, it's not the actual flame or the fire that is either most limiting. It's the smoke.
You know, where is that smoke going? Is it going to end up on a highway? So smoke management is a huge part of being able to use that. You know, smoke management is not an issue if you're using your tractor or your chainsaw, or you know, you're side by side, but it is at.
Least if you're using those things the right way.
That's right, that's right. It is with fire. So we want people who may not even use it to understand why it's used so that others can use it in the area. So and that's a big part of that, so big educational component.
Yeah, speaking of education, you know, I think there are probably a lot of people out there like me who know that fire on the landscape can be a good thing, but are just maybe not confident in putting it out there ourselves and doing it on our own right. Maybe you should speak to a little bit more about, you know, what these fire counsils and what types of programs are available out there, because there are there are programs in
many states where you can get assistance. So if you're like me and you're kind of a numbskull and you're like, I don't know if I should be out there with a torch, but you'd like to get it done and have some help, there are ways to get that help, right, can you can you speak to it a little bit?
Sure, and you're right, there's training available. Each state does it a little differently. Some offer a lot more than others, But just like using a tractor or a chainsaw or anything else. You can't just grab it and go without understanding how to use it. You know, hey, let's be trained. So we're using it safely for yourself and for others.
And in many places you can either get trained or there are other people who are already trained that you can have come on and help burn, Maybe come on and put fire brakes in for you and actually do the burning, maybe provide some other assistance. So there's different ways that you can have your area burn in different states. Pennsylvania, for example, landowners, you're allowed to burn. As a landowner,
they can't tell me I can't burn. But the problem is if I lose the fire on my neighbors are burned something up, I am in a lot of trouble because there's no liability protection for me. So most states have a training program where you can get your prescribed burner certification, which means you have been trained in the safe use of fire so that you can then pull a burn permit when the conditions are appropriate to burn.
So that provides you some protection. So what I tell people is the first understand hey, this can be really good for for deer, turkey, upland birds, songbirds, et cetera. So if you want to learn how to do it, that's great, let's help you find the resources. If not, if you just want somebody else to come out and burn, hey there's there's you know, consultants that do that. There's state and federal agencies that can help you with that.
You know, in most places there is a way that you can get somebody there to help you burn, whether you do it or not. So there's different options with that. But yeah, you're not You're absolutely not just going out in light matches and start because you know that that obviously can be extremely dangerous fire, particularly wildfires. We see the effects on TV all the time of how bad
they are. I'll say, you like the conditions, the environmental conditions, humidity, fuel, moisture, all of that, you would never use prescribed fire in any of those environmental conditions. So the whole idea of prescribed fires, you are using it under a prescription of certain wind speed, certain wind direction, certain humidity level, all of this to put it in as safe in an
area as possible. In in an area where you have fire breaks, which is an area around where you want to burn that you have removed the fuel, maybe it's disc fire breaks, maybe it's a creek, there's different things, but it's the very prescribed use of fire under very specific environmental conditions that allow that to be safe the vast majority of the time. Those are the type of things you get trained to do so that you use it appropriately.
Yeah, and is it for the states that have a prescribed fire council? Is that the entity to reach out to first? If you're looking for some kind of assistance or where would you recommend somebody go to figure out what kind of helps available?
The prescribe for our council is a perfect place to start with. You can also go to your state's state Wildlife agency or state forestry agency. For example, in Pennsylvania, the Bureau of Forestry oversees all the fire permits in that so, but a prescribe for our council would be able to direct you there immediately if it was someplace other than them. Our report has all the states that have those councils, so if you see that, it's very
easy to then search online and find them. But you can always go to your state wildlife agency as well. They would be able to guide you to the appropriate agency.
Okay, all right, I want to take another hard pivot to another topic that you guys focus on in the report and that I think has been showing up in the news and on our on our radar more and more often here, especially this past twelve months or so, and that is the impact of the changing composition of fish and game commissions across the nation. So the folks who are helping manage wildlife policy and management in the States, how that's how those people are getting those jobs, what
that's doing, how that's changing. And then I think a kind of a cousin of this would be ballot box biology, which is where we are seeing wildlife management decisions being made into ballot initiatives in which the general public is then voting on them. And both of these things I think are are are married together or they're they're adjacent, and I think they represent, you know, some some real risk when it comes to wildlife management and hunting in America.
Can you give me your perspective on a why did you want to focus on this in the in the report and be you know, what do we need to understand, what do we need to be watching for in the future to make sure this is something that's that's a positive and not a negative.
Yep. Sure, And you know, let me say one more thing about fire first. I'm not should have mentioned earlier. I'm coming to your state this summer to get to do some of that and a place near and dear to your heart. We actually have a learn and burn that we're going to do on the Back forty this summer.
We did one on my place in Pennsylvania. Two years ago, we did one in a different place in Pennsylvania's pasture, a learning burn where we people can come in, get some instruction and actually be on a fire and watch what happened. So this is part of the educational part. You know, Hey, let's let's show people you don't need to be afraid of this. This is you know, the ways that we do it. And so yeah, we picked Michigan and the Back Forty specifically to do some of that.
So I look forward to being there this summer. So that'll be awesome.
That'll be awesome, all right.
So as far as the Fishing Game Council, how they're made up, we are heavily involved in wildlife policy because we want to make sure that we are fighting as hard as possible for deer hunters rights, and there are more stakeholders today involved with policy than ever before. Many of them don't have hunters best interest in mind, So we are involved in that arena a lot. Most deer hunters aren't even aware of the National Deer Association of the fact that we do this, but we fight for
all deer hunters rights. It helps us to understand exactly the playing fields in all these different states, whether we're involved at the federal level or the state level. So in this case, we ask this question because we get involved in a lot of different state eight wilife agencies with this. So we want to know, okay, what is the actual composition of that commission because we work with those commissions in your state the NRC and my state
the Board of Commissioners. So it helps to know, okay, who are those people sitting there, where they appointed there politically or not, or where they elected Because as a you know, as a journalist, as a writer, you know more than anybody else, you have to know your audience. You have to understand your audience whether you're writing, speaking, or whatever to be most impactful, same thing in policy.
So we did this so that we have a better understanding of who are those board of commissioners and those commissions are those people there you know, are they made up of just elected officials that don't really care or you know, do they have a you know, a natural resource interest? So anyway, that's where that came from. To help us better understand what the audience is as we work, but then also to help deer hunters in any given state understand who is sitting there representing them.
So that said, that helps me understand the why can you can you give me maybe your own perspective, your personal take, or if you think the National Dear Association has a larger angle on this? Just just where what am I trying to say here? What do we need to be thinking about or how do we need to address the possible risk of new stakeholders on these commissions with anti hunting agendas influencing the management of wildlife in
our states? Do we have any ability to address that mitigate that change that This is something that seems to be coming up more and more often and seems like something we probably need to be not just aware of, but also armed to address.
Yeah, I'm I'm a fan of having a broad range of you know, those commissions. From a stakeholder standpoint, some get very nervous if every one of them there isn't an avid hunter. I think that there's enough influence just legislatively in any state that even if you have a stacked commissioner all hunters, you know, you're naive to think
there's still not political influence impacting what happens. So I think it's good for us to have a wider range of people there, because deer impact a lot of people. In the wider the range of stakeholders we have sitting at the table, I firmly believe the better job we can do managing those resources. However, I get real nervous.
You know when when those people are put on their you know, whether it's an anti hunter or you know, an avid hunter, when they are just politically selected, Boom, you're sitting there and suddenly you have a lot of influence over what that state wildlife agency does. Love them or hate them. State wilife agencies are full of professionals who have dedicated their life to wildlife management. I think it's good that you have a board of people that
kind of oversee what they do. But some of those boards are phenomenal in that they're taking direction from the agency, not just the biologists, the marketers, you know, there are three people, all of that and putting all that together. Where we run into real problems is where we have hand selected politically people sitting there with a very different agenda that suddenly have a huge opportunity to influence what all of those professionals have done and just unilaterally be like, Okay,
we have all of this work. Nope, I'm picking over here. That's where I think we have the greatest risk. And we've seen examples of that increasingly over the past five to ten years. So I have real problems with that, and not only impacts what goes on with that state. It impacts I mean this year, but it impacts in the future because we see burnout from state wildlife agencies that Hey, our folks are professionals, we're doing the studies,
we're analyzing the data, we're providing all this. Now I'm picking here, well do this again, and suddenly you get people like, you know what, it doesn't matter that I poured my blood, sweat and tears into this if it never matters. So I think there's a real risk in you know, not just the decision today, but you know, the decisions of you know, the people to go into the wildlife profession and work for those agencies five, ten,
twenty years down the road. I'll say this. When I came out of school or when I was in school, all I wanted to do was to be a state wildlife agency dear biologist. I became that, and you know, within six years of state wilife agency work, realized this is not at all what I thought this was going to be. Like they didn't talk about all the political influence and all that, and I think you have to have some of that, but it was way more than I had was led to believe. And it's only gotten
worse in the last twenty years. So you were starting to see the best students coming out of wildlife programs today with zero interest going into state wildlife management. And I think that's a problem, and it's influenced by political selection of some of these commissioners.
Okay, so what's the solution to that? What can we do, if anything, if we have a commission like that that has political appointees that seem to arbitrarily unilaterally taking actions that do not align with the best science or recommendations from the agency. Do we have any influence to change that?
We do? In some places yes, and some know. And the reason is it's not only political appointees on these commissions. Some of it is the executive director of the state wilife agencies, and he or she can directly influence what the staff does. There are some good examples of where
that person is not politically appointed. So there's I think there's a better opportunity to use the good science that that agency does, because if you're not politically appointed, there's less reason for you to have those political ties, you know, to make sure that, oh yeah, I get to keep my job next year, year the year after. So I don't work in the political arena, certainly not nearly as much as our director of policy does. But I have been in it enough to see, boys, you know, there
can be some serious problems. I'm not naive Mark and to think that, hey, there's a magical solution to all of this, But I have seen enough problems with some of that to make me realize that Hunters, we need to be very aware of this, and we need to be engaged. It doesn't do us any good to just not pay attention or put our head in the sand.
I think that's when it's the worst four hunters. So understanding what's going on always helps, and you know, when there's an opportunity to make our voice heard, and we do this. All the conservation organizations, you know, through their political or through their policy work, you know, have an opportunity to let their members know, hey, this is a bad deal for you. You know, if you want to
share your opinion, here's how you do it. We just need more hunters to take advantage of that today than before, because you know that political swing works both ways. You know, it's not just a one way street. If they're hearing from a lot of sportsmen and women, you know that they're upset about something. Well, that gets noticed at higher levels as well.
Yeah. So the kissing cousin of this kind of thing is the ballot box initiatives and wildlife management decisions being placed on ballot initiatives to the general public votes on. We've seen this most commonly, it seems, with predator related issues.
But regardless of what you think about predator management, I want to speak to the larger issue here of these types of wildlife management decisions being taken out of the hands of the managing agencies, out of the hands of the folks working on the ground that have the science, instead putting the decision on you, me, any random person out there deciding whether or not we should reintroduce a species or outlaw a type of hunting or a practice.
All of these things now are showing up ons and it seems to be some Western states here most recently. But can you speak to that risk of that kind of thing expanding and is there anything that we can do as hunters and anglers to to to mitigate that risk or are we just kind of at the whims now of where things are going.
I am not a fan of ballot box, you know, wildlefe management stuff at all, as I'm sure you guessed, and mostly because wildlife never wins with that. A lot of Western states recently have gone those lines. We see that, a lot of the Northeast so too. Maine has been through that numerous times over the past two decades, you know, relative to trapping and bear hunting and some other things. So and the reason I say that wildlife doesn't win
is because wildlife management is very complex. You can't share enough information for those ballot boxes for the average hunter. I'm sorry, the average citizen to make an informed decision. But what it's very easy to do, because wildlife is so cool, is to show a cuddly picture of something and then use that emotion to greatly influence which way you want them to swing. We see this with predators, you know, with a baby mountain lion. It doesn't have
to predators, though. I can show you a cute picture of a faon who's a prey item and swing people that way. I can show you a cute picture of a possum mother possum holding you know, babies, and swing it. So we have the opportunity for emotion to override everything else when we get into these wildlife ballot box initiatives. And that's why I say wildlife loses, because we end up with emotion driving of the situation. And then once that's done, you're left with the public and the state
Wilife agency to pick up the pieces. You know, it'd be like, we have a ballot box initiative. Do you want your local bank to give you everybody you know an extra hundred dollars today ballot box? Well, heck yeah, everybody vote yes. And afterwards they go to the bankers and say, Okay, this is what the public voted. Now you figure out how to make this work. You can't do that. But it's the same analogy when they take
this to the wildlife age, Okay, now you figured out. Well, gizu know, we were arguing against us all along because this won't work regardless take you know, take the wolf thing in Colorado. I don't care if you love wolves or don't love wolves. The ballot box is not the way to make that happen because it's never going to be successful that way, regardless of which side of the issue you're on. So, yeah, I'm not a fan of.
Yeah.
So the so that the next question is again kind of the same thing I said with the commissions. Do we have any leverage when it comes to this stuff other than just pushing back to our representatives within within the within the government stating the case like, hey, we don't like these things.
Well, I think that we certainly can and should let our represent representatives know, Hey, this is how I feel about this. You know you're representing me. But I think that our agencies also have an opportunity way before the ballot part of it to have some very strong educational campaigns out there about whatever species is. You know, those
type of things can move the needle. That's one of the reasons this past year where the Southeastier Partnership where we did the you know, the documentary with wild Tail America's Greatest conservation success story. That whole project was about showing the value of deer, not just to hunters, but mostly to non hunters. I don't care if you hunt
or not. If you live in the east the southeastern US, you're impacted by deer, whether you hit them with a car, whether you see them in a field, whether you like to feed birds. Deer are impacting those birds, and deer hunters are funding that. So let's show the value of deer to people. We want hunters to be able to speak more intelligent about them, but the non hunting public,
we want them to know more. I think it's those type of efforts about these other species as well, in advance of those ballot box whether it's wolves in Colorado or bears in Washington or whatever. I think those are the type of things where our agencies in this case it was a conglomeration of agencies, but state Wildlife agents as well, can do more from an educational campaign and
not just a one time thing. You know, it has something has to be long term that you know, can help influence public sentiment around what these issues are because once it gets to the battot box, then emotion ends up taking over too much because the timeline is small. We have to play the long game with making folks understand, you know, why something is good for a wildlife species or not.
Yeah, yeah, it's no easy fix here, no easy answer, that's for certain, and that is so often the case when it comes to wildlife or deer in particular. So you've wrapped up the report, it's been out there in
the world for a little while. Now when you close your eyes goes at night with this information now on hand or anything else that's going on in the world of white tails, kid, what is one trend or one issue at hand that is keeping you up at night and what is one thing that gives you hope for the future.
One thing that keeps me up at night is we go through so many revisions of this, I think, man, I hope we found all the airs. There are literally, you know, millions of numbers in here from forty eight different state wildlife agencies, and we go through a very rigorous process among our staff will review look count number. Then it all goes back to the state wildlife agencies to review again and they make revisions like ooh, this wasn't So we do such an effort to minimize errors.
But I know there, I'm sure there are still some in there, so it bothers me. You know that we have airs, so that definitely keeps me up. But as far as an an actual trend, CWD is, is there, if not the top right near the top, just because it's such a big issue that we can't solve in one year, you know, we certainly look at it as one of the biggest things affecting the future, as do
the vast majority of wildlife professionals. There's certainly some folks out there that say this is not a big deal or whatever, but you know, the vast majority, and I'm talking, you know, above ninety percent of all wildlife professionals see this as one of the biggest issues impact in the future of deer and deer hunting, So so that one definitely keeps me out thinking and wondering. For my part, you know, I'm not a scientist that studies the epidemiology
or that. For my part, I think it was okay, like, what can I do to help share some more information with hunters and what can we as an organization do you know, to help hunters have a bigger piece of this to you know, to help solve this. So that that's where I am on that. But the CWD mark, even though I'm an optimist and we will solve this, I have no doubt that one definitely keeps me up.
Yeah, and then what gives you hope, what's got you excited or feeling good about the future.
To take a look at where we are today deer hunting. Think about when your wildlife career started, or my wildlife career started, the makeup of the deer herd was so different, very skewed toward young bucks, very skewed toward bucks and not you know, I'm sorry, very skewed toward antlust deer and not enough bucks. Today that is very different. We said earlier, we have the best age structure on the bucks side that we've had in at least the last
one hundred to one hundred and fifty years. Yeah, we have some regulations from the state wildlife agencies that helped that, But it has been an entire change in the hunting culture to get there. I know it is one hundred and eighty degrees for me from where I started hunting, you know, in the early eighties in Pennsylvania. I know it's very different for you in Michigan as well. Think about where we were to where we are today. There
that is a huge gain, like tremendous game. That gives me good hope that whether it's CWD or anything else, Hey, hunters helped fix this. Hunters have helped fix almost everything that impacts deer, you know, for the last several hundred years. So that gives me hope that, you know what, We're going to be part of the solution again. We work closer with our state wilife agencies than ever before. We're
more educated than ever before. There's more resources like your podcast than ever before to share good information and teach. So think that I'm very hopeful about is you know what I have seen tremendous gains for the good of deer hunting and deer management, and hunters were part of that will be part of it again.
Here here I agree with you on that one Kim, So give me the plug for anyone listening. How can somebody get the twenty twenty four Deer Report for themselves and review the numbers and review There's a whole lot more on the report we didn't get to, so there's a lot to dig into if you're interested. So where can they find that? How can they become a member of the National Dear Association and why should they do that?
They can get the report for free at our website, which is Dear Association dot com. They can go there to our just click NDA Programs Deer Report, and then you can download this year's as well as every other years. They're all right there for free. We even have an interactive index there with them that you can search by topic and you know and immediately go to whatever that topic is in all of those years deer reports. So we try to make it easy as possible folks to
do that. To become a member, they can sign up right at our website. We have different membership levels. A great one is our Premium Member, which used to be what we called an annual member, but that gives them access to all kinds of discounts for things that are NBA sponsors or text optics on X. The list goes on and on, and you will get way more than monetary benefit from those places by the low membership fee there. So you can do that and have access to all
of our stuff. If you say, you know what, I'm just not into to a paying membership. We have a free membership option that we started this past year that we think is pretty novel and we're excited about. You can join for free. Doesn't get you the all the discounts for all of the sponsors that we have, but it at least gets you our weekly newsletter and so that you can be aware of all the stuff that's going on in the dear world. So very simple way
to stay connected without having to pay anything. If you're on pay a little bit, you get way more benefits, you know, from those other places as well. So I like it that we're trying to appeal to a broader range of deer hunters that you know, may have the means to join with an annual fee or not. So I think that's pretty cool. But they can do that all at Dear Association dot.
Com perfect well. I would certainly encourage anyone listening to do that and to sign up for that premium membership. If nothing else, you can look at that as a donation to a really important organization that has done tremendous things for our deer hunting opportunities over the years. And I'm a big fan and appreciative of the work you guys have done, so that appreciation extends to you, specifically to Kip. Thank you. Thank you as always for this
conversation and for everything over the years. You've taught me personally so much, and I appreciate that well, thank.
You very much. Like that, I've certainly enjoyed our friendship over the years, and I learned a bunch from you as well, and and certainly respect the audience that you have. And you know how much good you do sharing information and getting it out there to folks. So you've had a big impact. And so I'm glad to be here and maybe play a small part in some of the information for at least the month of January.
Agreed, Well, how about we do this twelve months from.
Now again, sounds good. I'm looking forward to it. So thank you for the opportunity, Mark, and you have a great day.
All right, And that is a wrap. I'll just echo what Kip said. Head on over to Dearassociation dot com, get a copy of the report, come a member, follow along. They provide all sorts of great educational resources as well as policy updates, action emails, different things that you can do to take action and help the future of deer hunting in your state across the country, whether it be sending an email, making a phone call, showing up for
a volunteer event. The NBA is coordinating a lot of this stuff and it's great to be involved in that. So thanks for tuning in, thanks for being a part of this, and until next time, thank you and stay wired to hunt.