Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to the whitetail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon, and this week on the show, we are joined by David Kenyon, my father, to see what we can learn from his experience raising a hunting and fishing fool.
All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light, and today we are continuing our series on parenting and parenting outdoor kids, helping bring our children into the hunting and fishing and outdoor world, helping to foster a love for wildlife and adventure and you know, engaging with animals and fish and wild places, all the good stuff that I know that if you're listening to this show, you have come to love just
as much as I have. And as we discussed last week when Tony and I kind of kicked off this topic, there is there's no right answer to many of these questions. There's there's so many shades of gray, there's so many different perspectives. There's so many different ways of going about this, you know, ultimate task of our lives. Really, I think anyone who has become a parent knows and has felt deep in your bones how it changes everything. And that
includes hunting. That includes your passion for white tailed deer, fishing for trout, or whatever it is that you like to do. But it's something we don't talk about a whole lot. We love to talk about pinch points and funnels and food plots and scouting and all that good stuff, but then we just kind of assume that, you know, we'll just know what to do when it comes to taking our daughters their sons out in the woods. We'll just figure it out as we go. When it comes
to teach them how to fish. Why don't we explore this in more detail? Why don't we give this as much attention as we do soil amendments and archery technique. That's the that's the question I've been asking myself here recently, and that's why we're doing this series. I think it deserves some time, some thought, and some different perspectives, new ideas. So when it comes to experts on this topic, you know, there aren't really any true experts. There's just a whole
lot of people with some kind of experience. And when it comes to people that have some kind of experience, I know one person especially well that I have a very clear understanding, at least a personal understanding of what they did and the results it led to. And of course I'm talking about my own dad, and I know the results because the results are me. You are listening
to me. You have found this podcast, This podcast is here and now and in the world, and the host you're listening to love's deer and fishing and wildlife and all sorts of crazy things like that. It's all because of him, this guy, David Kenyon. He mentored me, taught me, guided me into the outdoors, helped me understand how to engage in the natural world, come to love it, come to appreciate it, become capable within it, and so many
other things. And so my thought today was who better to kind of dive into this with than someone who I grew up with doing this very thing, And see if I can learn something from him right now in a different kind of way than I did when I was actually a child following him along. But what can
I learn now? Looking back on it all and kind of explicitly poking holes and shining a light on different sides of it and zooming in with a microscope and kind of picking apart what worked, what didn't work, what worked for me, what worked for him? What do I remember? What does he remember? And how did all of this lead to who I am?
Now?
This is a shared point of context. Right when you listen to other folks talking about hunting and talking about their kids, we don't really know what they're talking about, right. We hear the words they're saying, but we can't actually get a look at the results of what they're telling.
You to do.
In this case, it's unique. When you hear my dad share his thoughts and ideas and perspectives, you all pretty well know what came from it. So I think this gives us an interesting opportunity to, you know, hear what he has to say, and then look at me and
what I'm doing. Whether you know, you might hear what my dad has to say and they're like, oh, well, that's why Mark's so messed up, or that's why Mark's so annoying, or that's why Mark is whatever, or you might say, man, okay, Mark loves hunting and fishing and this thing his dad did.
You know.
I get it now. I can see how that led to Mark having this love. Maybe I can try something like that too. So I don't know. Maybe we're gonna have ideas like that, maybe we'll have the opposite. I'm not sure where this is gonna go, but I do know that my dad, David Kenyon, is someone who approaches things with a lot of thought, with a lot of care, and with a life journey. I think that gives his
advice and his ideas a sense of weight. My dad is someone who has push through a lot of things, work through a lot of things, and always has been able to find the light in it, has been able to find the lesson in it, the wisdom that can be gained from whatever it might be. And I think that makes him a particularly helpful person to listen to when it comes to parenting, because anyone out there who is a parent knows that it's not always easy. It's
not always cut and dry, it's not always fun. It's not always a straight and narrow path that you can walk on easily. It is a journey, and my Dad's been on that journey for many years now. I'm fortunate that he's been guiding me down that path too, and I'm appreciative of the fact that he's willing to hop on here and take some tough questions from his son, and I hope you all enjoy it as much as
I did. So, without further ado, let's dive into this second episode of our parenting series with my very own father, David Kenyon. Okay, now with me on the other side of the internet is a special guest. More special, I guess I'm biased here, but more special than most I have on the show. We've got my father, the one and only, David Kenyon. Thanks for doing this, Dad, Hey.
Glad to do it. Mark excited to be part of the wire to Hunt team.
Yes, I've gotten great feedback from people on the past episodes you've joined us, so you know we've got a reputation to live up to. Now, Dad, we've done a few of these over the years. I think we did. I think the first one, if my memory serves me right, it was you, me and Josh up at the cabin and we talked kind of about the history up there and our hunts and stuff, and then I think we maybe did another show after you killed your Buck at the Back forty. I think that was the next one
we did, and I of course enjoyed those. And I think during one or one or both of those or at some point I think I had asked you a little bit about what I was like as a kid and what it was like, you know, raising me a touch, But I think that was like a snippet of our conversation.
But what I want to do today, if you're willing to do this, is to expand on that dramatically, because, as you know, we're doing this short series around parenting and parenting kids that, you know, learn to love hunting and fishing in the outdoors and the natural world and all that kind of stuff. And you know, when I'm sitting here at my desk and thinking through, who do I know that has done that? Well, I can't think
of anyone better than you. But that is because I am, of course the product of that training and that parenting. But here I am. I love hunting, I love fishing, I love the natural world, and I'm obsessed with all the above. So I would like to raise a kid like me someday. So I suppose you are one of the best people I know to teach me how to do it.
Dad.
So that's the goal today. Are you up for the challenge?
I am, but I hope I don't let you in your audience down.
Here's the next question. Then, I I know you very well, and I know that you have uh you have dad blinders sometimes like you wear you wear rose colored dad glasses. By that, I mean you are you are so biased in your in your appreciation of your son, which I appreciate. But what I'm going to ask you to do here, Pops, is to be as objective, be as objective, unbiased and honest as possible as we talk about these things.
Do you really want me to be brutal? Yes?
So if you if if there's something you remember from my childhood where I drove you really nuts and I was a real a hole, you should say that. Okay, you don't need to pretend like, well, see I might I might cut you off somewhere down the line. Okay,
But that's what I want to do here. I want to you know, as a kid with my dad, I can look back on all of our experiences together and try to glean insights from the things I experienced as a kid, But now as a dad myself, I'm you know, and I'm sure you experienced this when you know I was a kid, there wasn't like a handbook. There wasn't anyone that gave you like, here are the rules, or here's the playbook or hear are the step by step directions for how to do this right? How to raise
a kid, how to introduce these things to them. So it's kind of I don't know how many kids and their parents get an opportunity to actually have like a a thorough conversation about this and ask the questions explicitly that maybe that you wonder about but you don't ever talk about. So I've got a few of those for you.
All right, Well, shoot, man, and I guess to.
Begin it, it might be useful, and I think it'd be interesting for me even if we were to rewind the clock even further back. Let's go back not just when I was a kid, but let's go one generation further back and go back to when you were a kid, which I imagine some of those experiences were what informed you then when you started parenting me. Right, yeah, so do you remember or what can you remember about the earliest exposure or memory you have of hunting or fishing
with your dad. What's that thing that sticks out for you? Still? Do something come to mind?
Yeah, you know Grandpa, my dad, he loved the outdoor and it was you know, he was kind of a product of the depression, product of the Second World War, very strong minded, strong, powerful personality and as I think many particularly men, but you know, in that generation, had a challenge I think, really connecting personally with us as kids. So his way of being able to do that was through the outdoors. So the thing I remember that was most memorable was and not that my dad didn't spend
time with us. He did. He did lots of different things. But where we really connected, where I really felt that I knew my dad best and really enjoyed being with him and we'd have great conversations, et cetera, was when we were hunting and fishing, and we spent a lot
of time doing that. As you know, Mark, every opportunity we got, we were out in the boat fishing during the spring and the summer, and every opportunity we got to go up to the cabin or go out in the woods to do hunting we did during the fu and they were in the winter and early early fall
as well for different kinds of animals. And so for me, I grew up outside, and I grew up loving and appreciating the outdoors and loving and appreciating the relationship that I had with my dad and with my brother because of that. So for me, it was very formative in that it created and I think really helped me grow
into the kind of person that I was. And you know, I'm not not jumping ahead of a generation yet, but that's why that was so important to me that you had that experience, because I had it, and that was a primary way as for me, at least, to connect with my dad. Do you.
Do you remember Do you have like a moment that you can think back on specifically? Is there a story that when I say, all right, tell me about one of these formative early in your life moments with your dad hunting or fishing that like, is there movie can still play in your mind of one of these days and one of these mornings. Can you tell about.
One of those? It's yeah, I can. It's a little bit challenging choosing just one, because honestly, I have a bunch. But let me let me throw out one maybe two that are really I think exemplary of what I'm what I'm speaking of. So we did very little hunting up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Most of our hunting was down in the southern in Baldwin in some of those areas in mid Michigan when I was really young, you know, four or five, six, seven, eight years old.
But one time my dad wanted to go up to the up I think he had heard from some of his friends about an area that you know, was pretty well stocked with big bucks, and the Upper Penince of Michigan, for those that don't know, is especially back then, it was quite remote, big tall stands of pines and a lot of conifers, very deep woods. That the interesting thing is because there's very little agriculture up there. Although it's beautiful terrain, not a lot of food for the deer.
So when you did find deer, they oftentimes were bigger, but they're fewer and far between because of that. But anyway, so I remember one time, I don't know exactly how old I was, maybe seven, six, seven years old. My dad got me up and said, hey, Dave, we're going to go hunting. But it's a long ways away. We've got to take off early in the morning. So you
got me up at three in the morning. We were on the road by four, and we drove up to I don't even know where in the Upper Peninsula what it was, but it was a way beyond the MacNell Bridge. And so I say it was probably seven years old and back then. And you and I have talked about this before, Mark, you know, this is before all the fancy clothing. You know, I remember even seeing a pair of surround boots on the shows at the local store.
It was a really big deal, you know. There just we just didn't have the quality and the level of technology in terms of outdoor clothing that we have today. So I had, you know, an orange sweatshirt, some pull on flannel jeans that you know I had, and then Grandma, who was a knitter, you know, knitted up a hat and knit hat and a knit scarf. And that's when I went into the woods with and it was certainly better than nothing. But I got to tell you, I froze my butt off. And so we get up, we
get up to our spot up in the up. It's maybe seven o'clock because it's a three or four hour drive, we you know, very quietly sneak out to the to the to the woods. And because we hadn't been here, we hadn't set up any blinds or anything. That it was kind of a you know, find the best tree. That's the other thing that's so different about today. You know, nine times out of ten, we just go find a tree someplace and sit next to it. I'd sit on one side and my dad would sit on the other,
and that's what we did in this particular situation. And overnight a snowstorm had come in. It wasn't snowing down south, but it was snowing hard up in the up So these big, beautiful snowflakes falling down, and you know, all the big pine trees were covered with snow and the branches were draping low. So as we went into the woods, there was probably a foot of snow on the on the ground, and it was brutally cold, so cold front
had come in. It was I don't know what what the temp was, but I'm guessing ten above fifteen above for a little kid, it was really cold. So anyway, so we sneak into the woods and you know, I'm following a lot, and I got this. You know, I'm all bundled up in four or five layers with this orange sweatshirt on top and a knit you know it knitted cap and then knitted scarf around and I'm just kind of waddling into the woods behind my dad, and
you know, he'd say, come on, Dave, let's cold. You can do it if you just pulled me in, and I'd follow him in these big beautiful trees. I remember seeing with all that snow all over the branches and hanging down, and it just seems surreal. It was like being on another planet. It was absolutely beautiful, absolutely gorgeous, absolutely freezing. So so so we get out to the to the tree. We find a tree someplace, and really all I remember is it was very thick, beautiful, just gorgeous,
big snowflakes the size of quarters falling. And we get to this blind again. He sat on one side, I sat on the other end. And he would always bring a blanket, and so after I sat down, he'd take a blanket and kind of wrapped me up in that blanket. Right, so all you could see is my head poke up about this this little cocoon. So we're waiting and waiting, and Grandpa just like you and I marquess, and great conversations when we're going up to hunting and that sort
of thing. So did so did he and I. And one of the things and this is one of the takeaways, certainly I took is you know, he talked about how great it was to be able to go hunting, the kind of experience of funny what to look out for, how to you know, how to see the deer and you know, spot the deer out in the woods, and you know what to do if they do if you do see a deer, and how to communicate with him. All those things we talked about all the way up.
So by the time we got, you know, to the Upper Peninsula and we started going out of the woods, I was really stoked. I was excited. We tried back in. He puts me on one side, sits on the other side of this big old, you know, pine tree. And what do you do when you're seven years old and you're walked in a half mile and it's colder than I'll get out, You fall asleep.
Yeah, and you're still doing that same thing today.
So a couple, a couple hours later, as I recall, I woke up and I'm just raizing, like my toes are cold, my nose is cold, my ears are cold, and and I'm just you know, my I'm shaking and I'm shivering, and Grandpa courses on the other side of the bine and he said, quiet, I think I see something. I hear something. Everybody, Oh yeah, right, sure, Dad, I'm freezing and you're gonna here. But it turns out that
that was a false alarm. A little bit later, though, he says, damn, dam just touches my shoulder from the back of the tree and around comes a cup of hot chicken soup and a thermos. And it was the best thing ever. It was like dying and going to heaven, right for a little guy. So it's a combination of hot soup, I Coco and Nestle's chocolate bars that kept me going during those hunting trips. So did we shoot a big deer? No? Did we you know, see a monster come through the woods? And was it the best
hume of my life? No? Was it one of those memories that I'll hold deer forever because it was that special time that I had with my dad and It was one of those experiences that clinched it for me as so why I left going going deer honey. Yeah.
It's an interesting example too because it's, uh, you know, one of the cliche pieces of advice and probably because there's truth to it when it comes to introducing your kids to hunting or fishing is to you know, always make sure it's fun, right, keep it fun, keep it light. But will you just described there was kind of miserable and challenging for a lot of it, and then punctuated by a little moment of of you know, heaven.
Yeah.
So yeah, what do you uh, what do you think your dad did best? Like when you look back and try to understand why did you end up falling in love with this stuff? Kind of knowing you your dad's teaching style or just his personality or whatever it is, What do you think worked as far as how he taught you and steve to engage in these things and brought you, guys to a point where you loved it and wanted to do it yourselves. What what did you do right?
You know? I think there were a couple of things my dad did really well. One is he was always teaching it was always talking to us about the woods and about hunting and fishing in the different aspects of it. But it was always in It was always a teaching mode. It was always, hey, remember to do this, remember how to do that. You know, be careful about this. You remember the walking through the woods. And then just my dad was really good of building excitement and Mark, I
think you can relate to this, right. I mean, we go into the cabin and there's a dozen outdoor life or you know, the Least Deer Hunting magazine sitting on the table, would pull it up and talk about an artic league just so and it just he made it fun. The other thing is that if my dad transitioned from being a teacher to being a coach, and I think that's really critical. So you know, a teacher explains to you what to do, describes what to do and leads
you through it. A coach stands back and watches you do it and then just at the right time and the right place, strategically adds a little hint, a little piece of information to help you do a little bit better. And my dad was good at that.
As we got older, when did that transition start to happen. When you do you recall when that shift started to take place.
Yeah, somewhere around forty five.
It took him a little while, Yeah, I know, No, no.
Yeah, I'd say it was maybe twelve, I would say fourteen in that timeframe, you know, because we'd been hunting with him, that that shift from us being with him and he was the hunter, to us being with him and we were also the hunter. Because it was a period where we would carry our you know, when I was twelve, fourteen years old and I had a twenty
two fourteen, four ten over and over under. You know, there were times when we would both sit on either side of the tree and he just kind of that was kind of his mentoring, right, It was to kind of coach us through that. But I'd say sometime after that we transitioned to that pure coach And again, like I say, my dad was really good at that.
What was your dad not good at? What do you recall when you look back on those early days when you were hunting and fishing, that did not help you fall in love with these things or to teach you that. Yeah, was there anything that almost made you not want to do these things?
You know, although my dad was a good teacher and a good coach, he sometimes could be impatient. And well, there's another thing that I think I need to put on the plus side before I talk about the negative. The other thing my dad was really really good at is making it, making us excited and making it fun. Okay, So those were on the on the plus side. But I think on the negative side, I think the patience
at times was a struggle with him. So my father was very goal oriented, a perfectionist in what he did, and although he was really good at teaching and coaching, I think he at times was impatient with how you know, we're ten year old kids, right year old kids or whatever. So I say that that's something that I tried to do with you is to be a lot more patient and allowed you to maybe make your own mistakes. And that's okay because you learned from mistakes.
Yeah. What what when you look back on those early years, is there a lesson or one single thing if you had to take one thing that you learned from your dad that when you became a dad yourself, you thought would be foundational in how you parented me in Kristin, what would be that most important thing and I'm sure you probably mentioned an example maybe, but what was that If there was ultimate lesson that you took with you.
You know, it's interesting you bring it up. And this is kind of tied to some of what we just talked about. You know, what's kind of a hard transition for me to make, and I think every parent needs to keep this in mind. We joke about how when you were young and we were walking through the woods before the age of six or seven, let's say, was somewhere around that six seven, maybe eight. I was in front,
I was leading. I was kind of giving you perspective than saying watch out for that log, mark so on and so forth. Somewhere around that transition, something flipped and it was you and fraud, you telling me to watch out for the log. And I think what's really important is a parent is to allow that to happen, is
to encourage that transition. Don't be threatened by it. Don't And I remember, you know, in a different domain, but I remember when you and I were bass fishing and doing bass fishing tournaments, and there was a there was a point at which you knew more than I did. You were better at it than I was. And it would have been easy to kind of maybe not maybe not resent it, but but you know, kind of react
to that a little bit. And I think it's really important as a parent to allow your kids to express themselves and be their own persons, even if that means they might be a little bit more knowledgeable or a little bit better at something that you love and do. So it'd be different if I don't really I didn't really care for dear hunting, or it'd be different if I didn't really care for bass fishing. But I love both, and you were better than I was, and that's okay,
and that's a good thing. But I think that's something important to recognize and encourage. It's not about and I think men in particular, we tend to be, or at least the men I know, we tend to be so competitive, and sometimes it's easy to translate that into our relationship with our kids as well.
So you mentioned, you know, my early days as a kid, and I know a story you told before is about when I was, you know, a little guy, and we were going on hunting and I was three or four on the floor of the blind just playing with toys and napping and all that kind of stuff. So one thing I noticed that I can recall, I think this mirror is what you experienced as a kid, was that, you know, you took me, You took me whenever you
were going. It seems like I don't honestly remember a whole lot of hunting or fishing trips that you went on when I was alive that I wasn't on. I can I can remember, like I remember once you went to Canada on a fishing trip without me. I remember that one, yeah, But I can't recall a whole lot other than that. So you were dragging me along in
all these things with you. What was that like when I was three or four or five and you had your own passion for the thing, hunting or fishing, But now you had this tag along who's slower, louder, you know, more easily distracted. I know what that experience has been like for me as an adult, But what was that like for you? And having a three year old, four year old little Mark Kenyon messing up your hunt and fishing?
Yeah? No, No, I think that's a really really good point, and I think it was. It certainly impacts your success, It impacts and I think you're like me, Mark, Well, you're much more than me in terms of being very gulorated and everything's formalized, and you want to make You've got a strategy and a plan for how you're going to approach a particular hunt or whatever. And when something doesn't work out, he doesn't go exactly to plan. It's easy to get upset by that. It's pretty easy to
get frustrated by that. I think when you're again this, I'll point back to Grandpa for this. Grandpa was just really good and no matter how he was very serious, a very serious hunter and a very serious fisherman. But we were always first, so we never he never compromised that experience of his experience for us. He always prioritized us over that. And I think that's what I try to do with you, and I think that's what you
do with your kids. So it's not about as much as we love the sport if you really want to. So I think another thing that's really important about teaching our kids to love the outdoors and to love, you know, the sports that we enjoy that I think a lot of people may not appreciate. It is not just about getting them outdoors and given them the experience and that sort of thing. It's about building deeper relationships they're going to last a lifetime, because I really think that's what
this is all about. It's not about catching the biggest fish or shooting the biggest ear. It's really about love for God's creation and nature and building a really strong relationship with the ones you love and doing that. And I think that's that's what I've learned from my dad, and I think that's what I see you doing with your kids.
Yeah. I mean, I think I've said this before on the podcast, or maybe you said I can't remember who, but you know, if we hadn't had hunting and fishing, I don't know what kind of relationship we would have had.
You're right, You're right, you know these we're very different a lot of ways.
Yeah, like that. This has been that one thing that has really brought us together on something we have shared interest in and passion for and vocabulary around, you know.
Yep, yep, right.
So you brought up something though that raises a question that I have been, you know, struggling with at times, or I guess recognizing in myself a challenge. I guess I've recognized in myself is that I have found myself wanting success when I'm out there with the kids, and as you mentioned, I'm goal oriented, I'm hard charging. I think there's a lot of other hunters and anglers out there like that too, who want to get the turkey. I want to shoot the buck. I want to catch
the big fish. And so I have caught myself sometimes out there with Everett or Colton, and I want success so badly, and I think, like, man, if only we could shoot this buck with Ever here, it would be so incredible and it would be such a great moment for him. And I'm thinking about this for him, but then I'll catch myself. So an example I talked about this last week with Tony. An example of this was this past hunting season. I think I told you the story.
There was this opportunity that me and Effort had to go after like a four and a half year old, actual mature buck here in Michigan. I was like, man, we actually have a chance to kill this big old buck with Ever, Like everything's set up perfect, and he was excited about it, and I thought this would just be incredible, Like this is going to be so great. But what
happened over the course of these two hunts. Is that because I was putting this extra pressure on it, because I thought we had a real chance to kill this big old buck, everything all of a sudden, like everything was ramped up, the pressure on every time he talked too loud, or every time he moved too much, or every time it was just like I was on a hair trigger because of that, because I wanted it so
bad for him. But then I realized at some point down the road, like he doesn't really care about that. He just wants to have a good time. He just wants to be out here with me. And I am I hurting his ability to have a good time because I'm trying to put my goals on his or impose my goals on him. So did you ever I guess what I'm trying to get at here is did you ever encounter that? Did you have how did you deal
with that? What did you do? Did you Did you ever have a time back in the day when man you want to catch fits so bad because he knew I'd be stoked about it, but then you know, I was just in la la land. And did you push through that? Did you try to get me over the hump or did you say, all right, no, this is going to be a warm collecting mission because that's what Mark wants to do. What's your recommendation for dealing with that or where's that balance point?
Well, well, I think I think it's a I think I think you hit on some really good points. And I think one of the maybe guiding principles is to remember that it's more about the relationship, especially with your kids. Right when you're with your friends, when you're with your your favorite hunting buddy, then then that's all different. But when you're with your kids or your family, I think it's more about the relationship than it is about the trophy.
And I think keeping things in perspective. And you know, one of the things I tried to do, and I think it's really important right up front, is that your expectations appropriately, you know, think about it ahead of time, Think about the great experience you're going to have, think about maybe the big buck that's going to walk on in front of you with when you're with your son. But then remind yourself that it doesn't matter how big
the deer is. It doesn't matter whether you even see a deer going back to your point, Mark, you know, some of my best hunts with my dad we never shot a deer. That wasn't what I remember. What I remember is the conversations we had, or the time, you know, the chicken soup that he passed around the tree to me. That's what I remember. Those are the things that you know, ten years from now from then, gave me the passion for wanting to be outdoors and being with him, and
you know, being able to hunt and fish. So those think of it as the seeds that you're planning that are going to grow into the love for the outdoors. And sometimes speeds need watering, and sometimes you know, you need to prone a few of those those you know dead branches. And some of those dead branches aren't on the one you're hunting with, they're in you. And so I think that's really important. I think that's really cay
and it's really hard. Again, I think not not to be not to say that this isn't a challenge for women as well, but I think it's particularly a challenge for me because we tend to be so competitive.
So along those same lines, another one of my debates that I continue to return to when I'm outside with the boys. Is something I'm curious about how you dealt with I see, as we talked about hunting and fishing and all these outside activities as a great opportunity to have fun with the kids.
Right.
You want to keep it fun, You want to make it fun for them. You want to focus on what their experience is, right, all these things you just mentioned. On the flip side, though, I've also seen hunting and fishing in the outdoors as this great arena for developing resilience and toughness and you know, becoming comfortable discomfort. Right, Like, these these experiences where we are pushed beyond what we
think is possible. I have found those to be, you know, such such critical parts of what that hunting and fishing experience has been for me. If I didn't have that, how would I have developed these characteristics? And so I want that for my kids too. I want them to be pushed. I want them to have to deal with the tough stuff and push through it and develop mental
toughness and all that. So how did you go about walking that line between the two between keeping it fun but not making it so cushy cushy that I never had to deal with the tough stuff. Was that something you were thinking about at any point over those years?
Oh yeah, yeah, And I think one of the ways we did that's something we haven't talked about yet. That's kind of related to this. And the phrase that I would use is feed the habit. Remember that Mark? Oh yeah, So feeding the habit is when we go to Cabela's
or our favorite sporting goods store. You were there with me, we were going through we were talking about, you know, the gear that we wanted to pick up for our next hunt, or the gear we're going to buy for the next tournament we're going to fish, and and very quickly you started studying and looking at what the best equipment was. And you would be you know, teaching me in many cases because that became an internal passion for you. So I think I think a couple of things that
are really important is, first of all, everybody's different. Every one of your children would be different. So don't try to make a square peg into a round hole. There's some kids and I can see this with you know, with some of our grandkids as well, is that you know, they they approach it maybe a little bit differently than you. Would or maybe a little bit different than their sibling.
That's okay, find that way. So you know, with with our daughter, we took a very different approach, but we were able to find her passion or see what her passion was, and then help her discover that. It's I think there's a couple of key That one is, I like, you know, that whole euphemism about feeding the habit It really gets that. Make sure they don't have to have the best equipment, they don't have to have the best
of everything, but it has to be good enough. It has to be good enough that it encourages the experience and enhances the experience. So we didn't go out and buy the twenty dollars of co reels and you know, ten dollars crappy little poll from Walmart. We spent a little bit of money and got a decent reel and a decent rig And you were part of that. You were, in many cases telling us what you wanted, right because you've done the research. I think the other pieces is
that it's eternal. You can never you can never make somebody love somebody something. It really has to come from them. And your job as a parent is not to force them to love your Your favorite sport is to encourage that passion and love inside first. And I think that's how you do it. You make it fun. You feed to have it. So when you see that spark of interest, that spark of gee, I really enjoy are you doing this? Then encourage it. You don't need to spend a ton
of money. It's not about buying the best. It's about buying or encouraging them and equipping them with the equipment that's going to allow them to have a positive experience.
Okay, then that all makes sense, But I feel like I feel like, let me let me rephrase my question. WHOA did you ever make me sit it out in the freezing cold blizzard weather when I said I want to go inside. I'm cold, this is miserable, and you're no, no, hear me out though I want to go inside, I wasn't having fun. But did you have situations like where that where you thought to yourself, all right, I have a choice. Mark says he is cold. Mark says he's
not having fun. But this is a teaching moment. This is an opportunity for Mark to grow a little are there? Did you ever have that situation where you had to debate with yourself like, okay, do we call it quits because this is not type one fun anymore? Or were there moments where like, you know what, I know, this isn't fun right now, but this is going to make him a man, This is going to help him grow, This is going to help him learn to deal with the tough shit in life that's coming down the line.
Was that something you were explicitly ever thinking about, debating, trying to figure out did you do that the right way? Do you think or at all?
Yes? And no, so yes, we thought about it. Yes, there are times when you wanted to go in, you were uncomfortable, you weren't ready. Now you're a little bit of a special case in this domain. I mean, you were pretty passionate about it. You were the one who was telling me to stay out in the woods longer. So this is a little bit different in your case. But I guess what I'm saying is you kind of have to read your audience, is really what I'm saying.
And yes, reading your audience doesn't mean you you just you know, follow at everyone requests, but it also means that if you there's a very fine line between sticking it out, going the way the whole way and then or and have an experience turned into a negative experience that turns you off and encourages you to go off and take up soccer or something else. R right, And I think you have to be really careful on how
you play that as parent. So I think, yes, we did, and we have, But I also think it's really important. What's most important is not that you force your kids to stick it out and make them tougher and that sort of thing, but that you you understand kind of the psychology behind what the what is going on in the experience and and help them wright because this is these are life lessons, and I think that's the other thing that's really important. This This isn't about it partially
about you know, getting outside and hunting and fishing. Yes, it's about that, but even more so and underlying all that, we're really talking about how you live your life, how you approach failure, how you approach success, how you approach you know, to your point mark perseverance. That's what you're teaching throughout all this. So think about the lesson that's being learned from their perspective and make sure that you're taking that into context as you make those decisions.
Yeah. So, continuing on a similar line of thinking, then what I'm giving you here dat is all of my existential questions that I'm trying to figure out. Like you just described, like there's this line, a very fine line between those two things, and it seems really hard to
be able pin down where the line is. Yeah, but here's another one that I have thought about a lot, especially with ever, you know, having more and more interest in getting, you know, really seriously involved with hunts and you know, wanting to be with me when I shoot at ear or shooting a with his BB gun at an animal, or you know, going out there and helping me track and gut deer. He wants to be in
it and do it all. And so I find myself asking and thinking a lot about how do I balance this other thing, which is keeping hunting or fishing fun, like just fun, enjoying the experience, but also somehow conveying the seriousness of it. How do I keep a thing fun but also teach them to respect the animal, to understand the gravity of killing an animal, clubbing a fish,
whatever it might be, I could see. I have found myself like battling with like, Okay, I want to make sure he understands this and he's got to take this serious and he needs to get this. But then I will catch myself and be like, Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa? Am I putting too much on him too soon? And do I just need to let it be fun right now without diving too deep into that because he's too young to understand that. How do you think about that? How do you do that?
You know? So now I'm and it sounds like I'm flipping because I think those are really important license Now maybe maybe you're thinking about this as being such an important aspect because I emphasized that and Grandpa emphasized it with me. So underlying everything I just talked about, all the experiences that we had hunting and fishing, was a really strong sense of how do you be safe? How
do you be respectful? How do you make sure you're doing the right thing and you're doing you're hunting or you're fishing or whatever the sport is, whatever the activity is, you're doing it with integrity. And that was I think an underlying theme in every conversation we had, and that was one of those things that was absolutely essential. It was it was non negotiable, is the word I'm looking for.
So we started, we started young with that and that I think we had maybe not as many conversations about those things as we did, you know, the actual process of hunting, but pretty close. I mean, that was pretty important, you know, I mean, can you recite the what was it to tip? What was the little acronym that Grandpa gave you for? How do you carry your weapon and use your weapon?
TPS?
TPS?
Yeah, that T stands for trigger. I'll never put your finger on the trigger until just before you're about to shoot. P stands for points. Never point your gun at anything unless you're gonna shoot it. Always keep it up in the air, down to the ground, and s always make sure your gun is on safety TPS.
I made my point and that was part of drilled into you when you're probably six years.
Old, right, yeah, yeah.
So you know, I think you need to do. My opinion is and everybody is different, So I'm not suggesting that my way is the only way or the best way, but my opinion is that that's that you do that hand in hand with the process of learning how to and loving the sport of hunting. It's just as important and in some ways even more important, because then these are life lessons. This is not to me, hunting and fishing is as much about teaching life lessons as it is about the sport itself.
What do you what do you think about what we have now in Michigan in many states now where age requirements have been removed, So so kind of taking what we're talking about here, how there's so many life lessons. There's all these different important things we're learning as we learn to hunt or fish or shoot. And you know, I think kids can be remarkably mature and ready to understand the gravity of hunting or fishing to some degree
at different ages. But you know, you and I were forced to wait until we were twelve or fourteen or whatever it is before we could actually do the thing ourselves because the state regulated it. Now that has been removed in many states because we want to have the opportunity for kids to hunting fish sooner before they get into video games or competitive sports or whatever and never have the chance to do it.
So now, yeah, you and I've had this conversation.
Right, Yeah, So there are a lot of five year old kids, six year old kids, seven year old kids now who are shooting and killing deer with their dad or the grandpa or a mentor with them, but they're they're pulling the trigger on animals at five years old,
six years old? What are your thoughts not, you know, we're not necessarily judging other people for their decisions, but what are your thoughts on the timing of a kid's exposure to that, giving your experience with me, because I'm trying to make that decision right now with Ever, Like when when Ever wants to shoot a deer? Now he's like, I want to do it, I'm ready, Dad. What would your guidance be to me as I try to decide what that appropriate age will be for him?
Yeah, you know, you and I had this conversation a few months ago. When you shared this with me, I wasn't aware that many states had lowered or eliminated some
of those age requirements. I was shocked, quite honestly. I really struggle with that because I think, for a couple of reasons, there are the mark Kenyans of the world who were very mature and very i would say responsible at a very young age as they learned how to hunt, okay, and you had that structure around you and pounding in your head around safety and that sort of and you know, respect for the animal and that sort of thing from
a very young age. But not everybody has that, and not everybody is mature mature is at the same rate. And I'm really concerned about that that I understand why it's being done. I totally understand the need to be able to encourage more hunters in the woods, and I applaud that, but I'm really concerned about that because I'm afraid there are going to be you know, not even I'm not even as concerned about there being some terrible
accident where somebody gets shot, that sort of thing. But just this realizes sense of oh, I don't know, casualness, casual illness, casualness. I guess the work about you know, carrying a firearm or a bow into the woods and the impact of that, the potential for an accident. But also, and as you know, Mark, one of the things that Grandpa really pounded in my head and your head as well, is you never shoot a running deer. Now, why did he do that?
You asked me that. The question for me, why did he say not to shoot the running deer.
Why do you think Grandpa not just said it, he pounded that in square heads?
Yeah, because his the rule that we learned was that you would only take the most ethical, you know, quick killing shot you could out of respect for the animal, and that a running shot would not do that right exactly.
And again I'm not judging somebody who disagrees on other circumstances where that may not be possible. But to me, my suspicion is that not all parents are not all guardians or friends or whatever have that kind of sense. So to me, it seems more dangerous, less respectful, and more likely that we're going to have hunters in the woods who are more likely to kill deer through a wound, not through a kill shot where they find the deer and you know, harvest it, and there'll be more probability
for accidents. That's what I'm worried.
About, because kids are getting to start hunting from a younger age. I don't know, if I don't know, if I follow.
You, yes, so not not. I'm not saying in every case. I'm saying that kids mature at different rates, and I'm concerned about younger kids being in the woods. Now tell me if this is true. Mark. As part of that process, some of the hunter safety requirements have also been dropped, isn't that true?
So so like in Michigan, you can have if I were call the latest the last time I looked into this, to bring someone out, you had two years where you could apprentice as a hunter, so without having to go through hunter safety. You could buy hunting license and hunt with a licensed mentor for two years before you had
to complete hunter safety. So that would give you the opportunity to have a kid go out at a younger age before they've gone through the whole thing and experience it, and then you know, go through the hunter safety thing, but again they have to be with a licensed mentor who has gone through hunter safety, who has done those things. So to Devil's Advocate what you're saying, there could be an eight year old who goes with his dad, who his dad's sitting right next to there, next to him,
guides him through everything. He gets this exposure, he gets to experience it, he recognizes that he is into this and is excited about it. Then he goes to the whole hunter safety thing and then eventually when he's older, he can go off on his own. So this isn't like we're releasing eight year olds into the while by themselves, right right, Yeah, And I.
Feel more comfortable with that, I would say, so an apprenticeship kind of approach. I'm more comfortable with so. But but again, I'm you know, this is not a yay or nay or black and white. I'm just a little concerned about so. And it's also a degree. So if you're talking eight year olds versus ten year olds versus twelve year olds, you know, it was fourteen when I first got my first license, and first here we were
not allowed to hunt younger than that. So I can see both sides of the coin and that remark reguard Mark, and I do like that apprenticeship kind of mentor approach. But it you know, you asked, and that's my kind of where I stand.
Hey, no, I did ask, but you didn't answer my question. My question would be what would your guys be to me? Not what's your overall opinion on should younger kids be able to go hunting? My question is, so.
You're asking me what should you do with ever Coleton?
Yeah, what's your advice to me? When I choose when Everett should be able to shoot his first turkey or deer, because he can accurately shoot a baby gun right now, and next year he'll probably be shooting a four ten or something or twenty two, and a year or two after that, I'm sure he'll be able to shoot a
two seventy or a three fifty or whatever. So within a few years he will be I'm pretty dark confident he will be able to effectively shoot a weapon that would kill a deer or a turkey by the time he's let's say eight, If not, probably could do it sooner, but let's just conservatively say I'm confident he could do that by then. So if you and I were sitting drinking coffee and I told you, hey, man, Everett could do it. He can pull the trigger and the thing.
He's consistently effective. He wants to go, he wants to get his first dear, he wants to get his first turkey. What would your father advice be to me about the appropriate age or how to come to determine what that appropriate age is for us? How do you how do you approach that?
So now it's a little bit unfair because I know you, and I know your experience and I know how you approach that right, So with you, quite honestly, I mean to speak out of both sides of my mouth. I won't be concerned, but from a legislative perspective or a regulatory perspective, I.
Don't care about that about I don't care about that. All I want is just give just give me the advice.
I think you should do it.
That's that's all I want. But but tell me more that you still not answer my question?
Dad? Yeah, what else is it? Right?
What do you what's your advice to me about how I think about this, how how I determine that proper age forever? So let's play what questions would you ask me?
Yeah, let's play Devil's advocate a little bit. Okay, Now, I'm I don't mean to put you on the spot with your kids, but let me let me do that just because I know them fairly well. And so you describe Everett and his passion for hunting and his carefulness around hunting. You've been coaching and I've watched you do this. You are very careful. You do exactly what my dad did with me and with you, So and Everett also has this really intense focus on hunting, so he listens
to everything you say and he applies it uniquely. I mean, he's taken almost as if he's writing everything down and reviewing it every time he does, you know, something related to that. And again I'm not suggesting that Colet and someone like this, he very well can be. He's two years younger, who knows, But let's say he wasn't. Let's say he was a little less careful, a little bit
more uncautious, or a little bit more spontaneous. Right. You know, you need as a parent to be able to read the differences in your kids and how they approach them and then to modify your style from a coaching perspective from a hunting and fishing perspective accordingly. And you may
decide I think it's appropriate. What I'm really saying is I'm asking your question by saying, this is what I would do if if Colton, just from a maturity perspective, is not ready, or if he's a little bit too you know, quick to take a shot, for example, then you know you have to be careful on you know, how the kids compare themselves and that sort of thing. But that's a scenario where I would I would pull back.
I would say I try to do it in a way that he doesn't take it personally, but I try to position up a perspective of maybe it's ten for him, not eight. But so I don't know if he answers your question. Yeah, but that's a little closer what I think you're looking for.
Yeah, And I think that the overall point is it comes down to knowing your child and reading their maturity, understanding what they are ready for and what they aren't, and taking that really seriously, because I do think that there is a there is a big upside right to be able to getting your kid out there and give them these opportunities. But then there's also this big, significant risk if you have if you take a child out
that's relatively young and they have a really negative experience. Yes, you know, there's there's a real risk of like they make a bad shot, or they make some kind of mistake that ruins it all. So that's something you want to guard against too. So so yeah, I'm definitely thinking
about that. And so that brings me to another one of these things that I thought a lot about, which is what about you know, kind of continuing in this same vein what about you know how you exposed me or taught me about seeing a dead animal, gutting a deer, seeing the blotting gore. I mean I remember being around you know, seeing I mean we've told the stories before, folks that have seen it, maybe in some of those shows.
Like as a kid, I love standing next to the buck pole, staring at the dead deer, examining their corpses, looking up into their insides. I mean, I was fascinated by all that. But what were you thinking as a as a dad? We're worried at all about me? You know, I don't know about being exposed to that too early? Or is it? Can it not be early enough? Because the earlier you are exposed to it, the less it seems like a weird thing to be scared of or
worried about. You know, I have I have thoughts, and I've an approach, but I'm curious what yours was.
Yeah, my attitude towards that as a camp be early enough. Now, yeah, I think it needs to be couched from the perspective of this is part of life. This is part of the respect we have for the animal and for this gift that we have right of nature and of deer and fish and whatever wild game we're talking about. But yeah, I don't that's a that's a case where and again I think you do need to read the child. Again, this is a really important component of everything we're talking about.
So there's not one size spits off. So it may be perfectly fine forever. It may not be perfectly fine for cold and that's okay. So I think you need to take that into account and allow the kids to kind of help guide that perspective. Now, sometimes it may be that there's maybe a fear of something that might be stronger than it should be. You might want to push back on that a little bit or help mitigate that. But in general, I think you need to read the audience and act accordingly.
Speaking of differences with children, you have me, who became a hunting and fishing fool, right, I mean, I'm obsessed with it. It has become the sun that my world revolves around. It has become my passion, my career, all of these things that's my life revolves around the outdoors in the natural world. Then we have my sister Kristen, who does not hunt. She I wouldn't say she really fishes. She's fished a handful times, but she doesn't fish independently.
She likes nature, she gets out here and there for some camping and hiking, but it's in no way what my relationship with the outdoor world is.
Yes.
Yes, When you look back on your parenting between me and Kristen, is there anything you can point to? I guess my question for is why is that? Do you think that was just? Is that just because of who she is? Or do you think that And this might be a hard thing to talk about, maybe maybe not, I don't know, but did you parent her in any kind of different way, if you were being honest with yourself, that maybe led to her having a different experience than I did.
So that's a really, really, really good question. And I thought a lot about that because I so I guess the first honest answer is I really don't know. But there are some things that I guess I think back on and think that maybe there were so Christian. Kristin had a different bent. Her passion, her explicit passion, the things she talked about, the things she really seemed to gravitate to, was something very different. It was horseback riding
and anything related to horses. So we fed that habit, right, We never never really tried to push her in a different direction or guide her direction. We saw that that strong interest, and we thought of that as her passion and we encouraged it. And as I say, we fed the habit. So that meant finding a person who had horses, who was learning how to ride it, was doing you know, competitive racing like she did for ten years, was all
those kinds of things. Now, having said that, I think a mom and I were very invomed in that right where in that as we were with you in hunting and fishing. But you know, looking back in retrospect, and Christen's made some you know a few comments along the way that lead me to believe that she kind of felt left out that I favored you for going up to the cabin or going hunting or going fishing or whatever, when maybe there was more of an interest in her
doing it than we realized. So yeah, I mean, I think that's the honest answer. I don't really know, and she would I think she would tease, you know, she would joke about it, but I'm not sure how serious she is that she you know, that I would always take you up and not take her. But I do kind of look back and then say, wow, did I miss an opportunity? Should I have spent more time with her? It wasn't a conscious thing, but yeah, I minut it's
a good question. Unfortunately, I don't have a really good answer for you other than that.
Yeah, so looking back, what would you say? Yeah, well, actually, before we go here, you mentioned the feed the habit thing, right you said you said you did that with me and with her was with the horseback riding. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit because I do feel like that has been one of the one of the great lessons I've learned from you, was this idea of feeding the habit. Can you just expand a little
bit on what that looked like more? I mean you earlier you talked about that was like buying the gear, but it was more than that. Can you can you just elaborate on that a little bit more and how that helped?
Yeah. So I think it's a combination of three or four things. One is talking about it, having conversations around it, understanding what your interests were around that topic, yours being primarily hunting, and fishing, and Christen's being horseback riding and then learning about it, being an active engager with your child and so that they know that you care about what they care about. And again, this is relationship building, right, This is more than just getting out in the woods.
This is about life lessons. So I think that's part of it. Yes, what I saw and partially with my dad, but that was kind of the age, you know, thirty four years ago. But I see this with other people as well, where they they kind of you know, when it gets down to them bringing their kids into their sport, they're more interested in making sure they have the best equipment, the best stuff, whatever it is. And then they either give hand me down to or they they buy the
you know, Walmart stuff for their kids. And in some respects that doesn't matter, right, kids may be too young or may not necessarily care what kind of rifle they're carrying or whatever. But in many cases it sends a message, right, It sends a subtle thing that that maybe it's not as important, you're not as important or whatever. And I'm not talking again about buying the best stuff. I'm talking
about having them actively participate in that. And then I think the third thing that I think we did with you is we we you know, we we got involved in kind of the community around deer hunting. So we read a lot of magazines, we you and I. I don't remember how many times you and I went and
beast feasts and that sort of thing with other hunters. Right, We got involved with the community around you know, our cabin and the people in the cabin around the cabin that we talked to, around the hunting that was going on. So it's just the whole atmosphere, the environment, and I think that's really important. So, you know, I say that that's kind of the the overall perspective that I would take around that perspective of feeding the habit Yeah.
Yeah, I think that that if I were to look back on things and say what led me to be who I am, A lot of it was was that it was it was putting rocket fuel behind anything I indicated I was interested in. So it was Yes, when I showed that love for hunting fishing, you were fanning the flames. I didn't have to fight for time to go hunting and fishing. I didn't have to fight for the fishing rod. You know, you saw something that you viewed as positive for me, and then you you fan
those flames, you make that happen. That you were in no way slowing that down. You were helping that. You were giving me the push there and supporting that with gear, with your time, and and to your point, the community thing was no small thing. I think just the idea of like being able to be a part of the group, like being with the men up at deer Camp. That was pretty transformational for me too. Just getting to be in the room, hear the stories, be a part of that.
That was so I mean, I don't know, maybe you remember when you were a kid hanging out with your dad and Jerry and those guys like you felt like you were bigger than you were and you were part of this very exciting, manly adult thing that was like a dream and you get to be a part of it and that was pretty special. So I can point to a lot of things like that that I look back on that that were great, that worked, that got me to where I am. What about what didn't work?
Do you remember anything? Is there anything when you look back on raising me that you realize, like, man, this is not working well or I really screwed that up or I made a big mistake there, so so you know, yes.
But it's probably not in a way that you would expect. And I kind of alluded to this before. You know, it's not that I screwed up or we screwed up and helping you discover your sport or you're passionate for your sport. It's more that that moment of recognition when I realized that the mantle had kind of been transferred from me to you, and that's that is. You know.
I think we all, again, especially men, maybe not exclusively men, we all have a we all have a need to feel like we're good at something, we're successful at something, we can we can beat our competitors. You know, this is just overall sense, and I think whether we acknowledge it or not, we all want to feel that way with our kids as well, until they're adults, right. I think we all consciously think, well, when they're adults, they're
you know, they're having their own careers. They have, But when your twelve year old son can outbeat you, outfish you in a tournament, that's a little humbling and I think that's okay. I think that's what I learned is I started shifting my perspective from personal success to celebrating your success and not and not seeing that as a personal front or somehow as a you know, a weakness. It was a strength. It's great to see your kids and then and then actually step back to a different role.
So I would say, certainly, in the last twenty years, since you've been in this role and your passion has grown and your knowledge has grown, the roles have changed. So now I'm the mentee and you're the tur and that's fine.
Was that was that hard when that first began? Did you resist that? Did you was there? Did we ever butt heads or did you ever want to put me in my place? Tell me a shut up and listen? I mean, what was that experience?
Like? Well, I think we did butt heads a little bit, right, and those I think and you probably can recall a few of these instances as well where I would say something, you say, well, Dad, that's not quite right, and I think, uh, again, going back to relationships, our relationship is such that it was fine, but there is a little bit of personal pride and perspective that relationship changes, just like you know,
kind of similar to the process of aging. You know, you, as you get older, your your role changes a little bit, and I think that I think you need to do that gracefully is really what I'm what I'm trying to say, recognize and celebrate and encourage this success of your kids. In your case, I mean, you way far surpassed and most every aspect of hunting anything I ever did. And I think that's phenomenal now.
And fishing too, fishing too, don't forget that.
Thanks a lot. But it's not just that, it's also recognizing that that I can it's okay, and I want to learn and grow through you. So that's okay, and that's tremendous. And because we have that relationship, we have fun doing it so we can joke about it. You know.
That's I think that's really important. But I think that that is a risk I think and maybe could be threatening some dads and some moms who are teaching their kids how to hunter fish when they go through that transition, that can be a little bit threatening at times.
Yeah, So we were talking about this the other day. You and I were up at the up a deer camp. We were driving home. We are in the drive through at McDonald and I brought up a statistic I recently heard, which was something along the lines of, on average, you will the average American will have experienced eighty percent of their time with their child by the time their child
turns eighteen. So eighty percent of the time you will get with your kids over your entire life happens eighty percent happens before they turn eighteen and are out the door. That was a very like eye opening thing for me. So what I'm getting at here is that those years where your child is living at home and you have this close intimate opportunity to experience these hunting and fishing
memories and adventures and outings, that's like a fleeting thing. It's this I've been having this realization myself as it's gone so fast, like it seems like yesterday I didn't have kids, and now I have a five year old going on six's who can do almost everything, and who's who I'm realizing is so quickly going to be like like you're talking about, he's going to be surpassing me and he's
gonna be out there doing his own things. And I guess I'm just realizing that this thing is flying in front of my eyes, and it's it's something I feel like I'm still trying to figure out how to do it. And before I even figure out how to do it, it's going to be done. So when you look back, you look back on those years with me and Kristen.
You look at those eighteen years when we were there at home with you and I was going to ken Revean with you as a kid, and we were sitting the blind together, or we were in the boat up in Canada catching walleye, or we were walking through the swamp. Two things I would ask, number one, what do you cherish the most from those years? What stands out above everything else as the great takeaway from those years? And
then secondly, do you have any regrets threats? Do you regret anything that either happened or did not happen over those years?
Good questions. So what do I cherish the most? Is the one on one time? It is it is the so our sport, whether it was hunting or fishing, became the It was the rallying point. It was the thing that we were doing together. It was the context. But that was providing the context for some of the best conversations, some of the most intimate moments, some of the most vulnerable moments that I've ever had with you, And same
thing's true with Kristin. Now with Kristin was a little bit different because it was usually Mom and I and we were doing group things, not so much one on one. And I say, that's my regret, my regret with Kristin as I wish I had found a one on one activity where I could have spent more one on one time with her. It's really you know, the old adage of quality time and that sort of in my opinion, that's bunk. There is no such thing as quality time.
There's just time and focus and personal one on one time with your child and whatever context, hopefully a positive, encouraging and fun environment. Those are the opportunities. That's the opportunity for those relationships to grow. What I love so much about hunting and fishing is that it's not just an opportunity for the two of you to get together
for a moment. It's usually at least hours long, if not days long, So you just have this wonderful context to be close, to be vulnerable, to talk about things you normally and you know you and I always joke about that right, Mark, we have some of our best conversations in the car going up to the cabin and coming back to the cabin. I mean, that's the opportunity. And so you know, my own regret is kind of going back to what you said a few minutes ago.
That time, that first eighteen years goes by so fast, and one of the one of the challenges I think we've had, and I think most parents who have good relationships with their kids have, is you just wish you had more. You just wish you who. You know, during the period of time when your kids are young, you're
so focused on your career. You're so focused on things that in the big scheme of things, frankly, just don't matter much that by the time you realize that kids are grown and they're off doing their thing, and now you try to make up for it by doing that
with your grandkids. Right, So, you know, the younger you can realize that, the sooner you develop those kinds of habits with your family, I think, the happier you'll be, the happier they'll be, and the longer those relationships and deeper those relationships will be.
Yeah, if if you for whatever reason, we're told that today is the last day ever that you can give your son a piece of advice when it comes to this hunting and fishing, raising children to become hunters and anglers, to appreciate the outdoors, to when it comes to all this.
If today, right now was your last opportunity to leave me with two thoughts, you've got two final thoughts of everything we've talked about here, or maybe something we haven't talked about, if you had to synthesize it down, if you had to distill everything we've covered down to the two simple things that I absolutely must take away from this conversation and carry with me for the rest of my life. And you will not have another opportunity ever
to tell me these things. What would those two things be dead?
Find? Okay, two things. First, find a way to build strong, deep relationships with your kids. And again, there is no such thing as quality time. Quality time as well. Gee, if I spend an hour with them a week doing something, that's that's enough. It's not. Find a way to make time one on one with your kids. And two, find a way to help them feel important. And when I mean, what I mean by that is not haughty, but that they're loved unconditionally, and that there's nothing in this world
that can make you love them many last. And I think that's part of what being a good parent is. It's building that sense of self worth in your child, that sense of confidence, that sense of of you know, at the end of the day, I know who I am, I know I am loved. I know that nothing, no matter how rough the situations in life are, that I'm
going to make it. And I think the time. It sounds cliche, but I truly believe that a time in the woods, the time and the boat, the time in the stream, if you approach it from that perspective, is the way you do that, or at least one of the ways you do that.
Yeah, well, wise, wise words dead. I am very fortunate to uh to have had you teaching me those things and uh and raising me that way. So thank you for that, and thank you for chatting about all this publicly in front of I'm not in front of, but verbally in front of a whole lot of folks. I I appreciate it. I think this has been great.
Thank you, Mark.
And let's uh, let's just say I'll remove that rule off the table. You are allowed to continue giving advice into the future, all right, I will. I will continue to take your wisdom and insights because I still got a lot to learn. So don't feel like you're stuck.
Funny, funny, how that's completely turn around. I'm usually asking you questions and learning from you and getting all that. So you know, remember that whole you know, the tables are turned thing. But I think that's you know, as you as you develop your relationship with your kids into adulthood, those relationships become friendships as opposed to mentoring and coaching, right, And I am thrilled and blessed to have the relationship with you and Krystal.
Yeah, it's pretty good stuff. And I guess on that note, let's let's wrap this one up and hopefully we can come back and do another podcast a few years down the road from now, and we can be talking about however it got his first deer or his first turkey, or the great memories we've been able to build up at Ken Rovan and some success that we've had up there. Hopefully, I trust we're gonna have some good stories in the next five to ten years to share.
Sounds great, Mark, Thank you all.
Right there, you have it. Thank you for tuning in. I hope there was something interesting in here. Hope you were able to garner a few insights, something that will help inspire you in your own either as a parent now or down the road, if that's in the cards for you. Like I said at the top, this is the pinnacle of hunting and fishing in my opinion, right, I don't care about the big bucks, I don't care about the trophy turout bringing our kids into this world,
into this tradition, into this pursuit and lifestyle. Man, there's no bigger win than that. There's no more meaningful trophy, experience and achievement and way of life than sharing these outdoor pursuits with our kids. So let's give it the same attention, passion, and obsession that we do for our deer, hunting, our fishing, whatever it is. So thank you, Thanks for taking time to dive into this with you, Thanks for being here, and until next time, stay wired.