Ep. 647: 2023 State of the Whitetail Report with Kip Adams

future for deer and deer hunting. All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light. Today we are walking into week two of our Conservation Month series, and as I just mentioned, we're joined by Kip Adams and this week's show is a really nice I guess zoom in from where we started last week. If you remember last week we talked with Doug Chadwick and got this thirty thousand foot overview of kind of the state of wildlife across the world. How

do we stand, where are things going? What caused for concern is there? Where do we see hope? What kind of action can we take to make sure there are wild critters all across this world? And now today we're going to zoom in to America and one specific species, white tailed deer. I think anyone listening to this podcast would probably rank white tails right at the top of their list of favorite critters, and I think that's going to make today's episode particularly interesting to a lot of you.

Our guest, Kip Adams, as I mentioned, is the chief conservation officer for the National Deer Association, and what we're doing today is using the twenty twenty three Deer Report and this document that the National Deer Association it's together every year. We're going to use that as a tool to explore the current state of white tails across the country.

Where things stand with a herd. What kind of trends are we seeing in the harvest data, in the information that state game and fish agencies are sharing, What kinds of changes are we seeing, what's looking good, what's looking not so good? What do we need to work on? What can we be doing to continue what in many ways are the golden years of deer hunting in this country.

We cover a lot of stuff like that. We explore some really interesting trends that we're seeing, some maybe surprising data points that Kip and his team have pulled out, and we also talk through some action, some things that we as deer hunters and managers can do tangibly to make things better or to change the story or to keep the good times going. We cover everything from current

trends with buck age structure. We talk about antler lists and their buck harvest numbers, where things are looking there. We talk through some really interesting things around how and why and when we should be targeting at loveless deer and why that's important to maintaining good deer hunting and a healthy herd and healthy balance with our habitat out there. We dive into some policy, some legislation that's particularly important.

We talk about the importance of private land conservation, especially for deer and deer hunting, and the opportunity that provides a lot of us. We do spend some time talking about CWD, which is not necessarily a fun thing to talk about, but we took advantage today to kind of level set to see, Okay, this has been a thing we've been talking about a long time. Where are we today? What's real? What's you know, what's the data show us today? What's working, what's not working? What can we really do.

Moving forward, we get a new sense of all that and man, that's just scratching the surface. There's a whole lot covered today. I think that I know that every one of you listening is a deer hunter, interested in white tailed deer in the future, wanting to make sure we've got these creatures to hunt, to watch, to chase, to study, to introduce your kids too, or your friends too.

I know this stuff matters to you, and I know that I think you'll be able to find some ideas here today that you can take action on to make sure this stuff lasts long, long into the future. So that's the plan. That's what we're going to discuss. I will give you one more quick PSA, which is just an update on what I've been sharing with you over the last couple of weeks, which is the latest on

the Working for Wildlife Tour. This is a series of volunteer events that we are hosting and participating in in collaboration with a bunch of different conservation organizations where we're heading out to public land across the country and doing some good work. We are picking up trash, make habitat improvements, doing different stuff like that. I told you last week about the first event, and our second event is coming up in just over a week, so I just want

to give you another reminder. That is April twenty second, Earth Day up in Calcaska, Michigan, in partnership with the MUCC that's Michigan United Conservation Clubs. We're gonna be building small game habitat, brush piles, some other habitat stuff that's gonna be great for all sorts of creatures, including deer of course, and we're gonna have a good time. So I hope to see you there on Earth Day. If you can't make it, or if you live in the other part of the country, man, don't let that stop you.

Get out there on some public lan by your house or your own dear property, or just your backyard and planet tree, pick up some trash, get out there with some buddies, do a little something. I can promise you it does help and it's a good time. So that's it for me. Let's get into my chat with Kip Adams as we dive into the state of white tails across the country. All right here with me now for what I don't know, Maybe it's the tenth or eleventh, twelfth time. I'm not sure what it is, Kip, but

we've got a Kip Adams back on the show. Thank you, Kip for being so generous with your time over all these years. Absolutely Mark my pleasure. And yeah, it's hard to believe we've had this many dear reports to talk about here, but good information just keeps on coming. Yeah. I just passed ten years of doing this podcast, which blows my mind. I don't know where the time went, but uh, it's it's gone fast. So you and I both were getting up there, Kip. Yeah, that's not I

got a good way to start this at all. Mark. Usually we have a we have a great conversation, but it's certainly we have We've got to talk about a lot of deer stuff over the years, and it is crazy to think how long we've both been in the dear world and you know, and things we've been doing. So I agree, time has certainly gone fast. And you know, I think it's because we both enjoy what we do so much. That's true. Certainly doesn't drag doesn't feel like

a job where we're both very fortunate. Yeah, that is that is the truth. It's a good problem to have when it seems to fly by, so I can't I can't complain, Um. But as you know, Kip, we've done these almost every year for I'm not sure if it's been ever one of those years that the podcasts have

been around, but if not, it's really close. So the audience probably knows what to expect here, but just in case they don't, you know, my hope is to of course review your latest edition of the Deer Report, Um, and some of the highlights, some of the trends, some

of the things that you're particularly interested in. But then also I think hopefully leave folks with a better understanding of just where do we stand right now when it comes to deer and deer hunting and habitat and all those different factors that impact this pursuit and lifestyle that we love so much in the in the resource that makes all that possible. So that being said, Kip, if I can toss you into the deep end right out

the gay forgive me, um. But let's imagine you were a doctor, okay, like a medical doctor, and deer and deer hunting as a combination. I guess we'll talk to the animals and the life style and the habitat necessary if that was your patient, If you were the doctor and deer and deer hunting is your patient, how would you assess its assess its general health today? If we just got out of our check in for the year,

what would you tell us? How would you assess or diagnose the current state of white tails and white tail hunting? And if you want to expand that to general deer that's fine too. But what's what's our standing right now? I think it would be that the patient is in, for the most part, really good condition. There's a lot of very positive things. Maybe it's a professional I think, you know, it's finally tuned, you know, well muscled, great

cardiovascular shape. But maybe it's had an injury that he or she is dealing with that's not out of one hundred percent. I think that's a fair assessment relative to where deer hunting is. There's we are in the golden age for for so many aspects of it, and I know that we'll talk about some of those on here today. So there's some really really good things going on in the deer world today. Of course, it's not without as challenge as though, so as I'm alluded to, maybe an

injury that they're getting over. It's kind of the disease aspect of what so many hunters have to deal with today, with the CWD first and foremost. Certainly there's some other deer diseases, but that being the big one. So I think I think it's very fair to say there's a lot of really really good things going on, um, but a little nag and injury that we have to deal

with as well. Okay, so one of the things that you know, that's kind of my sense of things from the outside, kind of trying to assess where we're at. It's seems like that's the case. But one of the I guess risks of being in that kind of situation where things are going pretty well, where you know you're you're on the Baltimore Ravens and you're playing well, life's good. You've seem to be pretty high. You're riding high and happy is that you can. It can be tempting to

let your guard down. It can be tempting to get lazy and just kind of ride that momentum the good let the good times keep rolling. It's tempting in those situations, I think too. I don't know if apathy is the

right word. But when there isn't a serious, imposing threat or a boogeyman breathing down your neck, it's easy to not be engaged, to not be active, and so, in stepping away from the analogy, just directly what we're dealing with here, I worry sometimes that we deer hunters have it so good across so much of the country and the white tail population and have it there's a lot of good things going on that it would be easy to lose sight or to not be involved in trying

to perpetuate that. Do you ever think about that? Do you ever worry about that? I mean, I know this has been a thing that in the past there's been conversation around It's like, man, the duck hunters are really active, or the upland hunters are really active with their conservation work and advocacy, because like those things have needed it, But white tails for so long have been doing so well that we don't always get that engagement. Is this

I'm rambling now, Kip. Are you worry about the same things? Is that something that makes sense? Am I onto something or am I over blowing it? No? I do think you're onto something, And you know, I'm not somebody that's screening the sky is fallen by any means. But I think it's always good, you know, to keep our eye on the prize here. You can look at waterfowl hunters today, You could look at turkey hunters today. You don't have

to look very far to realize, holy caw. You know, it wasn't all that long ago we were at historically high turkey numbers and just tre just turkey hunting them. That's not the case for a large part of that range today. Yeah, been thin in waterfowl hunting. You know, there's you know, there's there's a lot of work being done on that, but suddenly it's not the Golden age anymore. So I think what you're saying is a very fair assessment.

We are enjoying some historically good deer hunting right now, but you know that's because hunters have been engaged so much in the past two decades, and that today's hunters are so much more knowledgeable about deer and wanting to get engaged with these programs. So I think it's good that our hunters are engaged as much as they are, and I think it's important that they stay that way

to make sure that we continue to have great deer hunting. Yeah, so is there anything specifically before we dive into the report itself right out here at the top, is there anything that you think we as a community need to be engaging and more or really keeping an eye on or making sure is top of our list to you know, be ready to jump at the moment's notice, to ensure that we don't end up in a situation like the

Turkey world has been recently or something else. How do we make sure we keep our position in our golden years? How do we keep that going kip and avoid this slip back? Well, I think the single largest threat to the future of what we have right now from a deer hunting world is chronic waste and disease continues to spread, continues to infect more deer herbs. So I think that is where hunters need to stay in tune, need to do what they can to to limit the spread of that.

As of right now, we can't stop it, but we don't sure can limit where it is. And there's something that every single hunter can engage in that fight, And then you know, that's not a fun thing to talk about. And so because of that, a lot of hunters don't, but we try to take the tack that, hey, this is not a good thing for sure. However, there is something that every hundred can do every day that he

or she goes to the woods to help this. So I think that's an important message for hunters to hear and to realize, and the more hunters that do help with that, the better job we can do. Keeping the disease word is right now, you know, and getting science of time to catch up and figure out a way to defeat. So since we're since this, since you brought it up, let's drill into the CWD side of things a little bit, because you're right like it is. It's one of those topics where I think there has been

some real issue fatigue. I think folks have gotten, for better or worse, tired of hearing about CWD, or they have felt like, well, everyone made a huge hullabaloo about it so many years ago, but you know, it pops up here and there, but it's really not impacting media.

It's not really taking anything that I'm seeing yet, And so I think there's this continued perception that it's it's not looming or it's not what it was thought to be, or that I don't know, just hear this kind of sentiment simmering still as CW just becomes more and more prevalent, and there's almost maybe when I'm getting at here, has there's been like a shifting baseline where a long time ago and c to CWD first popped up, it was like, oh man, this is this is this is new? What

do we do? But now it's almost becoming baked into the culture, like we all know about it. It's there and it's kind of silently there. What's your read on where we are now, Kip with the CWD situation, and do you feel like on the research side, with new things we've learned, or what's the progress towards some kind of solution. Is it just feels like we've been treading water for a long time? Am I right on that?

What's your read? I think you're right, yeah, we we have been treading water, or at least it feels like, you know, there's no good news about it because everything we're here is so dire, and I think that there is some good news relative to some success, is that the researchers showed us so you know, for example, we have better ways to test for today in the landscape

than in the past. UM. We have ways that we can go out and identify without having to have a dead deer you know that's either shot during hunting season or as part of a targeted removal or are killed in the road. That's a huge advancement that we can now start to find new errors where this is. We are continue to reduce the amount of time that it takes to get a sample back to a hunter, you know, if they harvest the deer, to go until they find

out whether the deer had the disease or not. So, you know, those are those are things that are definitely bright spots in the fight against the disease UM. You know, there's there's legislation now that that's helping states, you know, monetarily battle this disease so UM for a long time, there just wasn't any good news at all, and we're

starting to see some some victories with that now. What the disease is still one hundred percent fail all the deer, but least we're starting to figure out ways to do a better job with surveillance and with monitoring and given hunters some other things, you know, that can help them or at least help this be less of an inconvenience for them. So I think those are all good things, and I'm hopeful that that's, you know, just on the cusp of more things to come that will help hunters.

So I'm an optimist, you know. I firmly believe that we are going to beat this someday. So I want to do everything in my power to make sure that when we figure out how to beat it, it's in as few places as possible, so that weekend eradicated as quickly as possible. I don't I don't want to see this in every county that has white tails and mule deer and elk and just make it that much harder to battle. Yeah, I don't know how deep you've gone into this side of things, Kip, so if this is

beyond your purview, don't feel bad telling me that. But have we you know, we've been I can't remember what the year was that CWD first popped up down there in southwest Wisconsin, but it's been a good number of years and that feels like maybe twenty years or something like that. Now where we've been, you know, actively as a deer hunting community talking about it, trying to deal with it, trying to adapt to it, trying to mitigate what's happening. Do you feel like we're making progress in that?

What's the word I'm looking for here in dealing with it? Have we are we getting better at slowing the spread? Have the things we tried in certain states led to some best practices now that are actually working. Do you feel like that side of things is getting better so that now twenty years later, we are doing a better job of slowing the spread? Has there been progress there? Do you think? Absolutely? And you're right. There was first confirmed in Wisconsin in two thousand and two from from

Deer that we're harvested in the fallible one. So yes, it's been just over twenty years now. There's a lot of wildlife professionals that they've spent their entire career, you know, with CWD. So at that time we knew so little about it that there wasn't much hope at all. Fast forward to today, and yes, many states are dueing a much better job than Wisconsin was able to do at

limiting the spread. Illinois is a perfect example. They got they found the disease at the same time as Wisconsin took a very different tact and at try to reduce it, and much of those initial areas in Wisconsin today the prevalence rate is over forty of some of those deer.

In Illinois, we're still in the single digits, you know, four or five percent prevalence rate, you know, strictly from a management standpoint, So we've seen, you know what, Illinois has done a much better job at limiting that spread past two decades. There's a lot of other states who are just now finding it or maybe have found it within the last five years. They're able to do more of what Illinois did, you know, to help limit that spread.

So we definitely have some case examples today of things to do and things not to do that helps every state that now finds it or you know, continues to deal with it. You've got a big section in the report about I think the terminology is targeted removal for CWD management. Is that a big part of what Illinois got right? Or if not, what do you think, you know, what is the best practice that Illinois has has shown

works so much better than what's going on in Wisconsin. Yeah, that is what they got right, and early on Wisconsin employed that strategy as well, but for political reasons that they had to forego it, so they stopped. Illinois continued with that, and we are a big fan of that partly because it allows agencies to go in and strategically removed dear in areas where you know you have the disease. So you can remove far more CWD positive animals by

shooting fewer animals in total than any other way. So what that means is you can remove those animals from the landscape, which helps all the deer that are there, the remaining deer. But then it helps hunters too because that is the least inconvenience to hunters. You know, it's outside of the hunting season. It involves the smallest number of properties, the smallest number of actual deer, So it's best for hunters and it's best for the deer resource.

So so it's some targeted removal can be a really really good strategy in those areas, and Illinois is living proof of it. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I know it's I know that's no fun for the person who owns and hunts that property where it happens, but it sure seems to make sense for the long term, and the numbers, like you said in Illinois certainly seemed to back that up. It's hard to argue with that. You mentioned one other piece of good news on the CWD side,

which is some legislation. I'm assuming you're referencing the CWD Research and Management Act, which seemed like one of the most substantial wins we've had from alleged lative perspective when it comes to deer maybe in a while, Am I right on that? Is? Is it truly going to be impactful? This is the thing that folks were talking about last year, really trying to push across the finish line, and we did it. Now what Yeah, you're right, and that's exactly

what I'm talking about. You know, up to this point, in the very early years, there was some federal funding to monitor CWD and to collect samples. All that went

away almost twenty years ago. So the the cost of this has been on the state wilife agencies, you know, almost the entire cost, which means then they have to take money away from other things they would much rather do, like enhance habitat and you know, a hundred recruitment and you know, public access, all those things that has hunters we would love to have our state wallife agency working on.

So much of that money got shifted into disease sampling, disease monitoring, etc. Well, now this CWD Research and Management Act makes seventy million dollars available a year, thirty five million for research, thirty five million for management, and that will be split among the states. So that suddenly now the money of the state wilife agencies had four of those other things we wanted them to do, they can

put that money back in those coffers. So this is this legislation is a huge win for deer hunters, for all wildlife enthusiasts, and ultimately our deer hurts. So that

this is a really really good thing. Good good, Well, I'm glad that was that was one of those nice last minute addends there at the end of the year last year that that came to fruition, and it seemed like, man on paper, this sounds like it should be a good thing because you know, we can't we can't solve the CWD issue and finally push that off the plate unless there's the funding necessary to get the research done, to get the monitoring done to do all those different things.

So I was, I was glad to see that, um, and now we'll just have to see what happens coming out of it. But h but thank you for humoring me kept by starting with like the downer topic, which is not the most fun thing to talk about though, But I feel like, as you in your analogy, like the nagging injury that this elite athlete has right now can't be ignored. If you ignore the nagging injury, that nagging injury, all of a sudden becomes something that knocks you out for a year or two or three, or

takes you out of the league completely. You know. So let's let's look at in the hairy eyeball versus sweeping underneath the rug. Now, I agree, it doesn't do it's any good to hide from it. So there's there is so much good stuff going on, So I think we're fine starting with that one and getting that right out of the way, and then we can just start talking about good stuff and gain momentum throughout throughout this talk. Yes, exactly, So,

so give me some of the good news kit. What's maybe one or two of the most exciting or important takeaways that you took out of this year's report as you compiled it and as you've reviewed it, we see justin sheer numbers of deer that hunters are killing remains very high. It really strong deer harvest across the white tails range. We have mule deer harvests as well. That's a separate section in here. And you know, relative to five or ten years ago, mule deer are doing really

well too, so that's good. We had such a long slide and mule deer numbers that the good news is many of those populations today have either stabilized or some of them are increasing. So mule deer are looking pretty good relative to where they were a few years ago, and white tails are really really strong. We're maintained in very high buck harvest rate, almost historically high numbers. But we have better age structure in the buckside that we've had in at least the last one hundred and maybe

last hundred and fifty years. And that's pretty cool from a deer health standpoint, and it's obviously really cool from a hunter standpoint. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's one of those things that folks are feeling on the ground. I mean, just in my you know, fifteen years in this side of things, running Wired to Hunt and everything. I remember seeing these early reports about you know, age structure and that data that was showing where things were, you know,

for example, in my home state of Michigan. And I have been able to over the last fifteen plus year scene on the ground with my own eyes those changes here, and I know they're being felt across the state or across the country. Sorry, and yeah, I mean, I know we've talked about this in the past, but that age structure, it leads to a different hunting experience, whether or not you're wanting to target mature bucks. It just leads to a more natural herd, a different dynamic across the landscape.

It seems to have a lot of ripple effects, right, I mean, that's been what the QTMA preached for so many years, was that there's all these there's this cascading series of benefits when you manage for a natural herd in balance with the habitat. And and you must I think we've talked about this last year, maybe too, but it must be really rewarding for you, Kip and the rest of the team there to see so many of the things that you've advocated for over the last couple

of decades, you know, manifesting in real life now. Oh, it is that it's so rewarding, you know, because we want to see deer herds man as well, you know, and be able to express what they can and you know, and show the way that they evolve. And you know,

in the hunters are the ultimate benefishiaries of that. So being a lifelong deer hunter, it's great to see hunters be able to photograph older bucks during the course of the year and you know, and see very natural behaviors like a group of bachelor a group of bucks in the summer, and you know, an older deer in the fall, you know, a chase mature bucks during the rut and fighting and just everything that goes with it. It is very,

very rewarding for sure. And I vividly remember, um, maybe fifteen years ago, I built a talk that I gave on you know, uh where where the best places were to kill mature bucks? And uh gosh, it was like, you know, five places in the country, you know that that's where if you wanted the mature buck, you went to one of these places. And that was really it.

And uh, just think about where we are today. You know, you legitimately have the chance of killing a mature buck, you know, in every single state that white tails live. So it's not just you know, a handful of hunters anymore, or you don't have to travel numerous states to get to one of these spots anymore. You know, deer are are accessible to just about every hunter in the country, and you can you can be in any state that white tails are and legitimately have a chance to hunt

mature deer. And uh, and that's really really cool. Now, while on the buck side of things and age structure and sheer numbers, that all seems to be pretty darn positive.

You know, the other half of the quality dear management equation has always been also managing the antler list population, and that is how you manage the overall population in relation to habitat, right, And that the antler list side of things stood out to me though, is another possible This looks like a little concerning And I know over the last couple of years you've been seeing this too, this idea or idea, but the fact that we seem to be getting a reduced antler list harvest compared to

antler bucks when it really should be the reverse. If I think I got the steat here right, tell me if this is wrong. But I think in the report it showed that fifty nine percent of states killed more bucks than does in the twenty twenty one season, which is what the stat is from. Did I get that right? And what's your read on that and the trend that we've seen pop up in the last couple of years. Yeah, the one thing that we need to really start and a handle on is we do need to start shooting

more ant loists deer than antlerd bucks. Again. For a bunch of years during the early in mid two thousands, we did that, and that's what gave us a bunch of the successes that we have today relative to correct

number of deer for what our habitats can support. But we come along, you know, two fourteen fifteen, basically a lot of states, through increased antalist harvests, had balanced deer herbs with their habitat, so they strategically then reduced the number of ant loist year that hunters needed to take. You know, we don't need to shoot some many anymore

because we're in a good spot. Well, that corresponded with a couple of really bad hammorrhagic disease years where we lost a bunch of deer about the time that in the southeastern US we were seeing greatly elevated kyrie populations and reduced fun recruitment rates. So there was a lot of things that work together there and really scared a bunch of hunters into oh man, we were shooting a bunch of doze. Things were good. All of a sudden, Now our agencies are telling us not to shoot as

many and deer herbs are dropping. So what that did is that had a ripple effect where for several years after that, hunters really pulled back it purposely were passing on ant last deer that probably didn't need to as much. So we're at a point today where you know, suddenly more states or harvesting bucks than ant last deer now, which is not a not a good thing. There are

some states that should do that. States northern New England, some of the states on the west that are kind of on the fringe of white tail habitat, Yeah, they can be very successful by harvesting more bucks than does each year. But most of the US they should be harvesting more ant list deer than bucks, or else those deer herds just grow too high and you end up back like we were twenty and thirty years ago, and there's just way more deer than we had food for.

So we're we're still in a good shape. But the last couple of years we have started to sound the alarm that hey, we're we've really backed off on the antlists side. We're not back off on the buck side. We're killing more bucks than we ever were, but we need hunters to start shooting some more antlists deer as well to make sure we don't get ourselves in the same predicament that we had back in the seventies and

eighties and nineties. Yeah, and so is it still the case? So, I know you mentioned there was a little bit of a blowback after populations dropped and hunters got scared and worried about this. Is it still a hunter culture issue right now that's leading to these reduced antlalyst harvests, or is any of the regulation it's hunter culture. Um, there are opportunities to shoot more ant laists deer and almost

every state that hunters are taking advantage of. So it's just it's a punch as choosing not to to shoot those deers. One of the statistics that we monitor is just hunter success rates. And if we take a look around the country, you know, every hunter has a chance to shoot a buck. In many states, you have an opportunity to shoot multiple bucks. You could shoot multiple antle this steer. But nationally, only about forty one percent of

all the hunters shoot a single deer. So less than half of all the hunters that went a field last year shot a deer, and only about eighteen percent of all the hunters will shoot more than one. So what we have is, you know, this focus more on the buck side than the antlyd side. And hey, I get it. I mean there's more big deer running around than ever before. So we have a lot of hunters that say, you know what, maybe I'm only going to eat one deer

or can't eat more than that. So if I'm only going to shoot one, I'm going to shoot a buck if I had to get a chance. And more hunters today are having a chance of shooting deer that are three, four, you know, five years old. It's hard to knock a hunter for shooting you know, a middle age or a mature buck. So what we need to do, Mark is

convince more of them. All right, that's totally fine, and congratulations for shooting that, but let's do, you know, help out our deer herds and also take an antlist deer. And I think the way we can encourage more folks to do that is, you know, help provide more from the venison donation side, where you know, more people would donate a deer if they didn't either have to pay for the process need or pay for a portion of

the processing. So I think we have a really good opportunity to help hunters from that end where they can shoot that antlist deer, either give it to a friend or a needy family, or take it to a place that can be donated, you know, at no cost to them, where hey, they're they're helping the deer herd, they're feeding the needy family, man, they're a champion of society. So oh yeah, I think that is the next thing as hunters and as managers where we can really make a

big game. Yeah. I think that's a think that's a great, great point and something that if let's take a little step back and dive into that a little more, because I think there's a bunch of questions that pop up for hunters when they start thinking about analysts harvest, questions like, well, how do I know if my specific property has enough dos to be shooting a bunch of them? Or how do I know how many doughs to shoot? Or I mean, there's a whole bunch of questions. What about when's the

best time to be shooting a doll? Or is it okay to shoot a doll that has too young of the year with it. There's all these new questions that pop up when you start talking about doe harvest that just don't seem to be there when it comes to bucks.

So if you humor me, Kip, can we tackle a couple of those questions since we're on the topic of analysts harvest, Since this is so important, let's just get some of these big boogeyman questions out of the way so that hunters listening today we'll can say, Okay, yes, I do need to participate an analysts harvest, or at least we do across the country in many places. So how can I better understand these specific questions to know if I can on my property and the right way

to do it. Do you want to tackle a couple those kip or do you want me to repeat them while they're fresh? Sure? No, I'm glad to do that because I do think this is the most important fast and deer management. And as much as I like bucks, and as much as I like seeing you know the bucks I property managed, the most important point is not having too many deer for the landscape or too few, dear, you know, it's about having the biologically appropriate numbers so

everybody gets enough to eat or not degrading habitat. All those other wildlife species there, you know, are able to benefit from a good habitat. So so it all starts with the endless side. And we have all kinds of articles on our website that folks can run through to be able to calculate how many dose they should remove from the area they are, but just real basic and there was a general rule of thumb for the vast majority of white tail hunters you should be removing more

dos than you are bucks on an annual basis. There are certainly some exceptions in some of those states you know, they're kind of a white tail extremes, but for most of us, you know, if you're a landowner and you're going to shoot, you know, one or two bucks off your property each year be taken at least one or two doughs. Make sure you're taking at least that many.

And that's a that's a great place to start. But it's very simple for people to be able to just take a look at what's going on and assess, you know what, did they think I have too many deer for the amount of food or not? If you plant food plots, you know, if you have an exclusion cage, there as the food outside of an exclusion cage as tall as it is inside. For nine percent of the people who plant food plots answers no. That means those deer and that using that property could use more food.

So in your woods, do you have all kinds of new trees regenerating all these little seedlings and sapling, or is it you know a brows line where deer of eating everything. If that's the case, there's not enough food, it means either you need to enhance habit to provide more food, and you also need to then reduced deer numbers so there's less mouths vying for that. So so there's some pretty simple things that hunters can do to at least start to assis, you know, what, are there

more deer than there should be? And let maybe take it back, nobody thinks there's more deer than there should be And I'm the same way. I like to see dear when I'm hut, are there more deer than there is available food? And if the answer is yes, hey ta take an extra dough this year, you know, and then and then assess again next year. So that's some pretty easy things hunters can do to help, you know,

battle that. Yeah, that's that's great. And like you mentioned, I'll just second the point you made about the fact that you guys have some great resources on the website, uh that break down, you know, some more detailed ways to assess what your population is on your property. I know there's some different you know, surveying techniques that can give you a better sense of Okay, what's the herd looking like, what would be the appropriate antlerlest harvest? They

can they can find all that. What's the website is a deer association dot org or what does it know? Doc? Yeah, Deer Association dot com? Okay, perfect, So definitely check that out for anybody who wants more details? Um, what about a couple more? What about the best time of year

to take a doll. There's a lot of folks, myself included, that at times have worried about shooting a doll earlier in the year because I didn't want to mess up my buck hunting prospects, and I always wait until the end of the year, and then many years I would push it off, push it off, push it off, and then when I'm actually trying to kill a doll at the end of the year, it ends up being harder than I think, and I don't have as much success as I wanted. Um, what's your take on that, Kip.

I know I've heard, I've heard it said that early and often is better, But what would you say. I'm a big fan of early season antalysts harvest, partly because, as you alluded to, they get really wise towards the end a hunting season and very hard to see. So I personally go into every hunting season with a dough harvest prescription for our farm. I calculated, this is how

many doughs we're gonna shoot this year. Share that with all of the friends and family members that I know, we'll be hunting, and we have a bunch of people that hunt our farm, so we start every season with a plan. Hey, this is how many we're going to kill. So the earlier you can get started at that, the more likely you are to meet that quota. And I love to take care of that early in the year because then I can save that food that those doughs would have been eaten during the course of the year

for other deer. And there is no better feeling than to get to the rut, which for many people that's the favorite time to hunt, and no man, I've already shot one dough or two dos or wherever how many I'm gonna I literally can just focus the whole to my hunting season on hunting a buck. So that is a great place to be because I know so many people don't want to mess something up in the rut,

you know, by shooting the dough. And although having a dead dough nearby is literally one of the absolute best buckmac that you can have during the rut, but I'm a big fan of that early season and I personally shoot dose early and I have the people that hunt our farm all shoot dos from opening day of archery get them as early as we can. That's just a

really good for the deer hurt. Yeah. And another plus of that approach, at least if you take enough doughs, is that if you have way too many doughs during the rut, it tends to lead to a situation where the bucks don't need to work too hard to find a receptive dough, and so they are locked down more often with a dough and traveling long distances less and that leads to you know, you're not getting to see

the frenetic chasing and seeking of bucks. But if you've got a or imbalance structure of bucks or ratio between bucks and does if you're taken a few more doughs off the farm before the rut, those bucks willing need to travel a little more, be a little bit more active, you know, work a little harder, which which leads to hopefully better hunting encounters. Right exactly. And you know, most doughs on a property, at least in the northern two thirds of the US, they're going to be bread over

a very short window. So you know, the fewer doughs that you actually have coming into heat any given day just just adds to the excitement of the rut and adds to you know, to more movement by those bucks. Uh. The rut can be an incredibly fun place to be and time to hunt, or it can be one of the loneliest times of the whole year. I've had plenty of sits during the you know, early mid November on really good properties where you know, I saw almost nothing.

You know, it's because of you know, all the bucks were with those or you know, that just wasn't a hot dough moving. So it's it's far better for hunters to have bucks under their feet seeking those doughs. And that happens, you know, when you when you have a very balance sex ratio as those gear come into the

into rut rather than just having doughs everywhere. Yeah, okay, here's another situation that a lot of guys will bulk at guys or girls bulk when they are in the tree and they're gonna go out there and try to take a dough. But then here comes the mature dough with a yearling or two. There's some folks that see that and then and they're really worried about, you know, if those doughs should be on the target list. I guess you might say, what's your take on that situation?

Is it okay to take that mature dough or should you not? As long as those fawns do not have spots, they are plenty big enough to survive on their own. You know, if you're in an area where they were just really late born, or you know your season is just really early where yeah, you can still see spots on them, then I would go ahead and pass that dough. If they don't have spots, she's on the target list. Now.

I totally get some people do not want to shoot a dough that has fawns, whether you know there's no biological reason not to, they just don't want those spawns to stay there. And I get it. So if that's the case, you know you can pass on that one. But it makes no difference to me if a dough comes under my stand and has fawns, whether if there's no spots and I can get a good shot at

that dough, I'm taking it. Yeah, Okay. I feel like that covers the top level questions that I get at least a lot when it comes to should you take a dough? Should you not? When should you? When should you not so hopefully that arms folks are a little bit more information to go out there this coming season and you know, get after it. And like you said earlier, kid, I mean I've yet, I've never once not been able to find a home for a deer that I harvested.

There's there's any time I had more than I needed in my freezer. There's always been someone who would like that deer, who would like to have that meat. Um, it's it's such a great thing to be able to share with people. And like you said, almost every state has a donation program now, but if you ask around a friends and family, it's often very easy to find someone who could use that meat just to within your

own network too. So there's there's lots of opportunities to do good both for the herd, for the landscape, and for people who could use that meat. So it's a it's a win win win as far as I'm concerned. No, I agree. There's data in the US the shows somewhere around one in seven households or food insecure. I mean they don't have enough protein. So so think about that one out of seven. So how many is that just in your neighborhood? So Yeah, it's a great way for

hunters to provide food to families who need it. And uh, you know it never helps to you know to uh or never hurts. I guess that to help our public image. So hunters are already providing a free ecological service to society by you know, managing deer by shooting deer. So you know, if we can add to that by helping see folks, you know who who needs some protein, that's a pretty cool place to be. Yeah. So so pivoting

a little bit here, Kip. There was another UM report or kind of topic you guys took a look at within the report which was kind of a deep dive into the breakdown of where folks were killing deer private versus public And I believe the number was that nine out of ten deer killed in America were killed on private land versus public And there's been a lot of talk, you know, around this public land versus private land topic, whether it be how we invest our dollars or advocacy

efforts or our time and energy. What what was your guys takeaway from that when you saw that data come rolling in that this vast majority of the deer are being killed still on private land. What does that tell you? What do you what do you garner from that? What

should we be thinking about too? Yeah, you know what if you just take a look at public land in the United States, we were very lucky, and you know that we have over six hundred million acres, so just looking at anything, man, this is great, and there's a lot of people that couldn't hunt if it wasn't public land. However, about ninety percent of that public land is in the western US, whereas you know, about ninety percent of the white tails are east of the Rocky Mountains, so you

know they're in the eastern two thirds. So where we have the most of our public land doesn't really match up with where our white tails are or where most of our hunters are. So most zero managers, I think suspected that the majority of white tails shop are taken on private land, but we never had a number until this year. So as we start looking at that, we realized, and what you said is correct, it's nearly nine out

of every ten white tails. It actually came out at eighty eight percent of all the white tails taken, and we shoot about six million white tails a year, so eighty eight percent of those are taken on private land. So I knew the number would be high, but I didn't realize it would be quite that high. Yeah, that's uh, that's pretty stark. So what do you think that indicates,

Kip does that? Is that is that a function of how many people are honey on private versus hunting on public Or is that a function of how much more productive the private lands are than the public. I think

that's a little bit of both. And uh, And if you look at the eastern two thirds of the US, you know, states range anywhere from fifty some percent private land up to like nine percent private landland like in Texas, and obviously a lot of deer hunters in Texas and a lot of land, so there's a lot more opportunity to hunt private land for you know, all the hunters in general. So there's a lot of private land that

we have. But then also you just have so much more work over the last two decades, work work just being occurred private land to enhance habitat for deer. So take right beside your house or right beside my house. You take a landowner that's doing food, but he's you know, has a bunch of early sea or early successional vegetation. They're working in the woods, even if rate next door

is private land and it's all over mature hardwood. For us, you know, with nothing underneath, you're going to have more deer on that private landowner. You know, that's really getting engaged. So I think we have more opportunity on private land because there's so much more of it in the eastern two thirds of the US, and then you just have so much more work growing on. This is not a knock at all on our state wilife agencies or our

federal agencies relative to habitat management that they're doing. But we all know the stories like with the fishing or the Forest Service, that you can't cut on forests, you know, because of the political reasons, and so that the private landers have so much more flexibility relative to what they can do to enhance habitat, specifically for dear, and we're

seeing it. I know there was a stat out of the Southeast Dear Partnership this past year that a deer hunters in the southeast, so the southeastern US, they spend about one hundred and eighty three million dollars a year on wildlife plannings. Wow, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money on food plots and fruit tree plannings and other things specifically for deer hunting. So I think that just highlights all of this really good work that's going on on private land to make things better

for deer. Yeah, and when I look at that, I just see this huge opportunity that we have. You know, it's really not really well, yeah, I would say it's really hard. It's it's pretty darn hard for the average deer hunter to influence what happens on public lands as far as you know, conservation work, habitat work, improving that habitat for wildlife, it's pretty darn hard. It requires a

whole lot of different layers. There's a lot of cooks in that kitchen to make good things happen on those acres, very very important acres, like you said, But it's it's hard and slower to make positive changes there. But when you like as you said, on these private lands, there is this huge opportunity we have not only to improve our deer hunting, but really to address a lot of different wildlife issues. You look at any of these species that are not doing as well as deer like turkeys,

or songbirds, upland birds, pollinators. We have a huge, huge footprint across the country managed by hunters where we can just go fix the problem ourselves. In many ways, we don't need to wait for the government. We don't need to wait for some new law. We could just take matters into our own hands. Because we have influence over so many of these private acres that are so important. I just see it as this like superpower that we

have compared to almost anyone in the country. We as a hunting community, have you prioritized owning or managing land, and we can use it for the great are good, which is which is kind of exciting to me. Um. I mean, does that make Does that resonate? It does? And I agree with that. And you know, and this is not to diminish the public lands that we have or the good work on public lands by any means.

We certainly need more public lands than the east, and we need to do a better job manage and habitat than a bunch of our public lands. But it just highlights the importance of these private holdings and the cool thing about you know, deer driving this system. If people are doing a good work for deer, then all those other wildife species are benefiting as well. You know. Young forests you know are awesome for grouse and woodcock, you

know the pollinators that need to help. Early successful vegetation is perfect for butterflies and bees and you know those grassland birds. And so it's pretty cool that in the name of deer, and even though the deer is kind of the carrots getting to stick, there are so many

other wildlife species benefiting from this good work. Um. That's one of the reasons I'm so proud through the NDA, you know, of all of the habitat enhancement of stuff that we teach, you know, And I'm proud to be from a deer hunter and to know that deer hunters are driving this whole system. And it is amazing the number of acres that are being impacted, you know, through work to make things better for deer and maybe see a few more deer or kill a bigger buck in

the ball. Yeah, there's a tremendous ripple effect. I'm curious. I've looked into this and I've tried to pull the numbers, and I'm curious if you know of any more recent numbers or more built out. But but I found a report from you guys back in two thousand and nine that stated back then, just within the membership of what was done the QDMA, they were about thirteen million acres of land owned for hunting back in two thousand and nine.

And then I also saw a US Fish and Wildlife Service estimate that said that I think this was maybe a twenty eighteen report on this one. I think they said that there was approximately four hundred and forty million acres of private land that was either leased or owned for wildlife dependent recreation, which I think from what as

I understand it, that would mostly be hunting. Have you seen any other data like that that quantifies, you know, what our footprint is out there as far as land managed by hunters or by deer hunters, or anything like that that could kind of get a sense of the scalt that opportunity. Yeah, I have not seen an updated Fish and Wildife Service number four that, but yes, I

think that is mostly for hunting. Somewhere around eighty percent of all hunters in the US are deer hunters, so the vast majority of that would be for deer hunting. I do know that with our Deer Steward program. Of the classes that we teach, we've been teaching them since two thousand and nine UM and since then, we measure impact of those classes. You know, everybody that comes through, you know, how many acres do you own or manage?

And a lot of people that take that don't own any But we've talked those to a lot of state wildlife agencies and deer managers. So I know that we alone folks have come through our Deers to a program have impacted over fifteen million acres of land, so you know, and that's you know, there's like four thousand graduates in that, so four thousand people that have come through one of our classes, that many acres. So think about all of the others out there, you know, that are adding into

this as well. I mean, it's just a huge footprint of wildlife habitat across the country. So you know, it's no wonder deer are doing so good and in so many places, and you know, and other other wildie species are strong as well. So it's there's there's a lot being done in the name of wildlife, and that's one of the things that that irritates me. You know when non hunters who don't understand this part, you know, start

attacking hunters for for certain things. You know, even if you don't choose a deer hunt, you know, that's fine if you don't want to, but man at least recognize, you know, all of the services that a deer hunter is providing. And if you like feeding those birds, please recognize that a deer hunter is largely responsible for those songbirds being alive and you know, being able to come

to your window. So that's that's one thing that as hunters, we need to do a better job telling that story, you know, because it's about way more than you know, just pulling the trigger in the fall if you're a deer hunter. Yeah, that's uh, that's that's so true. And what a what an incredible you know, ripple effect you guys have had with those dear Steward courses. That that number at fifteen million, that's that's wild um. And I guess, you know, I guess one last thing on this topic

is recognizing the importance of these private lands to conservation. Like, if we want to impact wildlife populations, you can't ignore

private lands. We've we've kind of demonstrated that now, I think when we've looked at the scale of these acres and how much of the wildlife is on these private lands, so if we're gonna do anything good for him, it's got to happen on private lands just as much, if not more so, than on public I think that just makes it even more obvious how important private land conservation related programs and funding is too, which which all brings me back to the upcoming Farm Bill, which will be

you know, being kind of hashed out over the coming months leading into this fall for the twenty twenty three Farm Bill, which which has so many of these private land conservation related issues and funding mechanisms and programs as part of that. We're actually kept going to have a full deep dive episode coming up this month on the

farm bill. But I'm just curious if there's anything from your perspective as part of the NDA that you guys at the organization particularly want us deer hunters thinking about when it comes to this upcoming version of the farm bills, or anything we should know or that we should be talking to. You are representatives and senators about to make sure that a good for deer and good for wildlife

version of the farm billets gets signed and improved this year. Well, I think one thing it's important for hunters and state wildlife agencies to realize this just knowing homedy deer are shot on public I'm sorry, I'm private land and the importance of that. There are some states that have you know, private land programs. Missouri is a perfect example. You know, they have a bunch of state Wildlife agency biologists that are working on research and others on public land or

you know, everything in the state. But then they have a specific private lands division to work with private landers to help them enhance habitat, to help them manage deer, etc. You know. And there are some states that they have their staff, you know, the statewide staff, and you know

there's no preference at all given to private land. I think that we are coming into a day and age, well we need to recognize just how important private land management is and that I would love to see every state wildlife agency have a staff that works specifically with private landowners. I think the Farmville is a great way to do that. Look at all of the pheasants forever Farmville biologists that help private landowners enhance habitat, you know,

for upland birds. I think that there's a synonym with deer that we should be taken advantage of. Certainly, not not to take away anything from other duties of our of our state agencies, but I think there are some that feel that it's wrong to just focus on private lands. And I think we have enough data now on deer harvests, deer hunter numbers that are that are hunting our private land. That's a big deal. Um, there's twenty nine states that have a private land access program, so there's a room

to grow. That should be all of our states, you know, have that where the state agency works specifically with landowners to to get some all those acres into private land access. And I think we should have a staff at the state agency helping those private landowners enhands that have to make it even better for for deer and other wildlife. That's something that twenty years ago would have been not even discussed. Ten years ago they start to discuss it,

but yeah, maybe maybe not. I think today this is a no brainer that should be happening on all these states that have white tails. Yeah, that that just makes all the sense in the world, And it's it's great that there are those types of things starting to happen. Though, what else, Kip when you look at this report zooming back out a little bit, when we look at the twenty three edition of the report, we've we've kind of covered the private land versus public land thing pretty well.

We covered the nagging injury of CWD. We took a deep dive into the dough harvest and the importance of all that. Is there any other big takeaway here that we really would be remiss if we didn't cover. When you look at the important stuff that you touched on that report, I think it's important for folks to know just how many hunters we have out there. We know that there are somewhere between nine and eleven million year

hunters each year in the US. There's more deer hunters than that if you take a look at the number that have hunded at least once within the last five years. But there's any given here somewhere around ten million deer hunters. And we often fight amongst the different fractions of when we hunt deer. So you know, we know that about twenty two percent of all of our hunters deer hunters. I'm sorry, we'll hunt with a muzzleloader about twice that many hunt with a bow or crossbow, so it's about

and about twice that many help with a firearms. So what we have seen with a lot of expanded archery seasons over the past decade and expanded the muzzleoader opportunities, we really haven't increased the deer harvest much. We just kind of have made it occur in a larger portion of our deer season. You know, where so many states the vast majority occurred with the firearms. Now we've seen about the same number shot, but a lot of them are shot earlier in the year. You know, particularly with

the use of crossbow. Some hunters get all upset about that. I'm thinking, man, thanks for hunting, being a hunter and continuing to hunt. So you know, I'm glad that we see more firearms hunters also hunting with a bow or also hunting with a muslums. I don't think that dilutes us at all, or you know, I think that's a good thing, that we're just taking advantage of more of the opportunities. I would much rather see somebody pick up a bow or a crossbow and hunted October than not

hunt at all. You know, in November or December, so I think just known when those numbers are, letting hunters see, you know, like what the state by state breakdowns you know, are for the different categories. I think that's important, and so certainly being able to monitor them and watch how that changes over time, I think is good for deer management and good for hunters. That's a really really important

topic and great point. And I think, so I want you to say this one more time to make sure that I heard it right and everybody else heard it right. Are you telling me that when state opens a crossbow season that they open archery to being able owed to use excuse me, to use crossbows during archer season. When that happens, that's not devastating and changing the deer population in the herd dynamics and the number of deer being killed.

Is that what you're saying? That is correct? And we've looked at all the states that have, you know, crossbow seasons, and so there's no state that has had to reduce harvest opportunity once they've opened crossbows. You know, they're not devastating the buck side, they're not devastating the analysts side. In most cases, they just redistribute when those harvest occur, and they tend to now occur a little earlier in the year, during you know, an archery season rather than

during the firearm season. All right, there, you haven't the data has spoken, we don't need to be so so worried about that when it comes down the line. It seems like every state, whenever that gets put out there, there's this this this crazy tizzy of fear and worry about it. And I'm glad to see that numbers have not shown some kind of negative impact. But that does lead me to one other thing, which we did chat

about this last year, Kip. But I'm just curious to hear, you know, as things have evolved, where your head's at on it, and what your sense of the challenges, and that is hunter recruitment versus hunter crowding or access challenges.

There's this, you know, for a long number of years we've been hearing about, you know, lowering recruitment, the fact that there's there's fewer and fewer new hunters coming into our lifestyle, how the demographics are changing and there's a lot of folks aging out, and so there's been this long running concern about how do we bring new folks into the fold, and there's been some really great programs put in place, like the Field of Fork program that

you guys have at NDA, helping do that, helping educate new hunters, helping mentor new hunters. It's you know, being involved, and some of that stuff has been some of the very best things I've done as a dear your hunter

in my life. But on the flip side, there's been this growing kind of backlash to that, I guess from some folks who are concerned that, you know, public lands are becoming overcrowded and that there's too many hunters out there now today and you can't get access on private land anymore because everything is already being hunted or is being leased by hunters, and you know, public lands are being loved to death, and so there's this I don't

know if it's a loud minority. Maybe it probably is just a loud minority, but there is a loud some number of folks who are saying, forget hunter recruitment, we should hoard it all to ourselves because there's too many people out there right now and it's ruining things. What's your sense of the reality of this Kip, is it different than where you were a year ago? Are you

more or less concerned about it? What's your take? Yeah, and I get the crowding ended and I'm the same way when I go on and I don't want to be crowded. It's always nice to have more of the woods to ourselves. I think that's kind of a selfish view of it, though, you know, because the wildlife management doesn't depend on just me. It depends on me and

you and every other hunter that we have. So as our hunter numbers age out, and fortunately we have about the same number of hunters that we did last year, you know, a few years ago, but the average age continues to get older, so very soon we're gonna have a big drop in hundred numbers. And that's why, you know, the field of four programs and others are so important. And thank you for your involvement in hours and everything

you do to help recruit hunters. I think if we look at the end of the day, take a look at the actual number of hunters on the landscape, and we've done this for the different regions. The Western US certainly big wide open spaces, they only average one deer hundred per square mile. Now, certainly people travel to the west. I get it, but in large part one deer hundred

per square mile. The southeastern US average is four deer hunds per square mile, the Midwest average is five, the Northeast average is nine, and my home state of Pennsylvania has the most. We average about fourteen deer hundreds per square mile. So so I get it from one hundred crowd and then you know, there's not always a deer behind every tree, but at times it feels like there's one hundred and every tree. Yeah, you know, at fourteen and a half. Dear, I think so much of it

is what people grew up hunting. If you grew up in an area where you just didn't see many, then even two or three deer hundreds per square mile might seem like too many. You know, if you grew up in Pennsylvania with fourteen, well, two or three feels like you have everything to yourself. So I think we have to recognize that. Sure, we don't want to be crowded, but we need all the hundreds that we can get.

You know, only five percent of the US population binds a hunting license, and we don't get to do anything because five percent of us want to do it, so more hunters that we have now is better. I agree, we don't need one hundred percent of the US to hunt, but you know it would it would help us if more than five hunted. So I think for right now anyways, everything we can do to recruit more for hunters is

a very important thing for our future. Yeah, and now I'll just re emphasize the point I made, which was, not only is it a good thing to do for the future of hunting, it is fun. It is fun. I mean helping new hunters, teaching new hunters, mentoring new hunters, being out there to see I mean, I know you've seen a kid. I don't. I'm preaching to the choir here, but I mean there's almost nothing more rewarding than being out there when someone experiences a hunting success for the

first time. I mean, these have been the absolute coolest thing seeing people learn to hunt, seeing them, you know, walk up to the first deer they've ever taken a shot at, and they have this meat and they have this experience, and I mean I've had people tell me it's life changing. It's not. It's no small thing. I mean, these are really impactful changes in ways of helping folks.

And I mean, I think it's if you look at how hunting is positively influenced you, and I don't think anyone listening to this would not agree with the fact that hunting has so positively influenced each and every one of us. I mean, the good you can put into the world by helping other people experience that, I mean, that is a reward in itself. Um, so all other arguments aside, Yeah, it's a great thing. I agree, And it's some of the most fun I have every year

is mentoring hunters. And one of the hunters I mentored last year and never shot a deer. It was a father, young father, and We're sitting in the blind the first night, and I asked me, like, why do you want to hunt? And I still expected him to say, you know, I want to take some meat home. You know that that's because there's so many new hunters today. That's the driving force. And uh, you know, I'm a father, you're a father,

so you can relate to this. He said, I have three little boys at home, and I want to be able to do this, to be able to teach them and to prove that that I can, I can bring meat home for our family. Yeah, and I remember thinking, if I have to hunt with you every day the rest of the year, you're going to take a deer home. I'm gonna do everything possible to make sure. So, uh in any way, you know, it's that that was pretty powerful, you know, as a parent, you know, and as a father,

I know what it's like. You know how important it is for me to you know, bring meat home to my family or you know, when my kids are hunting with me. So um that that really hit me hard. You know. He didn't grow up the way you did or I did, you know, with the family figure you know, teach them that. So he came to it later in life. And good for him, you know, for for wanting to

do it now and taking the steps necessary. So I certainly was going to do everything in my power that that that he learned to you know, learned to be a hundred and was able to take some dear home. Yeah, that's pretty great. Will keep given what you know, came to understand throughout the process of putting together this twenty twenty three Dear Report, or through through any of the

other things discussed today. If you had to distill all the topics we talked about down to two related actions that you would like our audience to take after having heard this conversation, there's two things that you would like to encourage our listeners to do over the you know, next year that would help lead us towards a better future for deer and deer hunting. What would those two things be you'd like us to do. One would be

take somebody new hunting this year. I think it's hunters responsibility now to mentor you know the next group, So take somebody hunting and shoot a doe this fall. Both of those are incredibly important. And you know, if we had more hunters do in those if when you and I talk next year, we'll be in better shape. Man. That's an easy ask, Kip, because both of those things are a lot of fun. Like we already talked about

how fun it is to mentor. But then also every year, Kip, I'm always reminded, like when I go in the field on a dough mission, like specifically to go out to hunt. Does every day I do it, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so much fun. Like I almost like those hunts more because you're going out there. It's a target rich environment. You just it feels like every moment is a little bit more charged because it just feels like, Okay, yeah, it's gonna happen. You better be ready. And then it

doesn't always happen. But man, I love hunting for dose Like that's a blast. I'm with you on that one. So we'll see if we can encourage some folks to do that. All right, Well, Kip, one last question, where can folks go to get their own copy of the twenty twenty three d Report and read? I mean, there's so much more on there that we didn't get to cover, so I'd highly encourage folks to download it and give

it a read. So where can they find them? And then also, can you give folks just a quick quick rundown of how they can become a member of the National Deer Association and what all isn't included with that? Sure, they can go to our website which is Deer Association dot com. M on there, they can click on the

Deer Reports and it's a free download. Every one of these are there and they can grab every single year if they'd like and see how their state compares to the neighboring states and others in their region or different regions, so can do that all for free. And then as far as becoming a member, they can also do that right at the website. Gives them you know, regular information like we're talking about here relative to deer and habitat

management and hunter recruitment. Gives them opportunities to get engaged locally relative to issues you know, impacting their deer hunting, and keeps them up to date and all the latest science, dear wives, so they can take care of all of that right on the website. Terrific. Well, I appreciate as always, Kip, thanks for walking through all this with me and answering

all my questions. And and I just I want to reiterate we talked at the front end about how, you know, long we've been doing this and how I'm starting to realize that and you've been at it much longer than I have. And I just want to publicly say thank you for what you've done in your time in this role with the QDMA and now the NDA, and you've been such a great champion in voice for deer and

deer hunters for a very long time now. And I'm sure you know this, but I'm not sure if you take the time to sit down and appreciate it or or revel in it. That being this, this tremendous positive impact you've had on our pursuit and our resources and our lifestyle so on behalf of all my listeners over all these years. Thank you for that. Well, I certainly appreciate the kind words. Mark, I appreciate that a lot, and I'll throw it right back at you. You have

a you have a big voice. You have always done a great job and been a great champion for for hunters and public lands and deer in particular. So I appreciate the opportunity to be on here and be able to share some of our data. So keep up the good work, all right, Right back at your Kip, looking forward to doing our twenty twenty four edition here before we know it. All right, and that's a rap. Thank

you so much for tuning in today. As Kip mentioned, please go on over download the twenty twenty three Whitetail Report get the full scoop on everything we talked about. If you're not a member of the National Deer Association, it's cheap. It gets you access to a ton of great resources and gets you plugged into a really what I think is a special community of whitetail hunters and managers and conservationists. So check it out going over to the Deer Association dot com And until next time, thank

you for tuning in. Hope to see a lot of you April twenty second at the Working for Wildlife tour and until then, stay wired to Hunt.