Ep. 643: How to Kill Tough Turkeys No Matter Where You Hunt with Brodie Swisher

guessed it. This is not Mark Kenyon's voice. It's old Antonio keeping the lights on again while Mark is off in France, of all places, trying to win a breakdancing championship with a belly full of croissants. Now, I know he looks like he'd be pretty awkward on the dance floor, but Marcus actually got some pretty good moves and he got bumped up from the amateur category to professional, so be sure to wish him luck. I hope he comes

home with some hardware for his man cave. Today I have Tennessee hunter Brodie Swisher on Brody is the editor for bowhunting dot Com and the host of the Hunting Roots podcast He also happens to be one hell of a talented deer hunter and of course a turkey hunter, which is what we are talking about today. This is the one show a year where we break from white tails to talk about gobblers. But the truth is we do mix in a little bit of deer hunting conversation

as well. But basically, if you're a casual turkey hunter, a diehard turkey hunter, or even just remotely interested in starting out, I think you're going to really enjoy this episode. Brodie Swisher, do you know how special of a guy you are? Always? Man that's always always feeling special when I get to hang out with you for a few minutes. We get we do one turkey episode a year for Where to Hunt, and you are the guy this year, and we're going to talk all kinds of turkey today.

Good deal, man, That's one of my favorite pieces, So

I appreciate the opportunity. Man. Always good to catch up. Yeah, I love talking turkey and other stuff because we spend so much time each year talking about deer, how to kill a deer, and where to find big bucks, how to plan hunts, and turkeys are just fun and it's just it's I was telling you, you know, this is this is a late March episode, but I was telling you back in February, I saw my first bird strutting already, you know, through thirty inches of snow up here in Minnesota.

And man, the first time you see that just you know, just get you pumped. And you were saying that you were duck hunting at the end of the season down there in Tennessee and heard a bird gobble at first light, which he was obviously a little bit confused, But man, it's it's getting close now, that's right. Yeah, you know, whether it's passing by fields, seeing one strutting, whether just those early birds popping off, whatever. I mean, it's just

little encounters. They're just enough to keep tugging at you to get you through, and so those are always appreciated. And yeah, man, it's it's right here looking forward to it's ton be awesome. Do you do yeah, because you got a whole passle of kids there that you're taking out at hunting. Do you do a lot of scouting before Turkey season? You know, that's kind of evolved over the years and anymore, I really don't, just because a

lot of the scouting I do. You know, somebody says, oh, I saw your truck up there at whatever place, you know, and they and um, you know, I end up giving myself away, you know, if I'm part somewhere and start listening for birds before season or whatever. And so I've got, you know, the spots that I know where they've produced in the past, and um, I might go listening to week up, but I don't do a lot in advance.

I usually know, man, this place, but public or private has produced, uh you know for years, and so I know they're gonna be there. And like I said, I mean a lot of times when I go start listening on public, man, I'll see somebody's got my truck park that you know, see see my truck part of the gate. And then I start getting some of that competition. And then the next time I go, there's a truck ahead of me, you know. So I just try to be subtle and uh that little sneak attack you know for me,

I start taking your wife's vehicle out there, that's right. Well, I did sell them. I had a jeep and jeep Cherokee was pretty. It was a cool looking jeep. I picked up a couple of years ago. But it was it was you know the old school Cherokee box chaerokee from years back. And I had a little lift on thus with good mud tires. I mean, it's really good looking jeep. But I had everybody like, oh man, I

saw your jeep. But there, you know whatever, So I started That's why I think I went back to the suburban and drove you know, my little boy's Toyota camera, you know, sneaking there with with the car. They don't have a clue what's going on, so it's whatever takes. Yeah, you don't. I mean it's scouting for turkeys. Is weird if you're if you have enough land and you know, if you're get a running gun with a shotgun, it's

really like kind of unnecessary. It's fun, you know, get out there and hear him sound off, but you really don't need to. But I found, you know, being stuck here, especially here in Minnesota, on some smaller properties where you know you're not you're not going to just go chase every gobble because most of them are to be across a fence line that you know, scouting, you know, running cameras looking for some scratching and tracks and glassing when I can has really changed the game for my bow

hunting turkeys and for taking my little girls out. That's right, Yeah, I think exactly that. The majority of my scouting is is where where can I get one in the field for my kids? Like you said, you know what food plot are they hitting and what time are they hitting? And that's what you mentioned. Trail cameras, Man, that's where that is so vital for me. Uh, and just that process taking intel. You know a lot of guys go pull the cameras deer season over me, pull my camera.

But it's like, man, now it's the time to have that camera out. And I don't think people utilize that, you know that that trail camera enough to uh you know, they just overlook it for a scouting tool for turkeys and have it out there. Man, I've got a landowner and he's like, hey, he's got to sell. He's always sending me pictures. Don't sell you to the camera. He's like, hate, he's turkeys, come kill him. It's like February, you know what I'm like, dude, you know you can't you can't

do in February or it's March. Man, go ahead, No, we got another uh whatever it is, but they're popping up on his you know cell, you're a camera and he'll show me, you know, pictures of you know, half a dozen gobblers out there whatever, and so that kind of intel's huge. And you know, so you realizing him the landowner, he hates turkeys. He doesn't hunt him, but he wants them dead. And so I think, you know, just like I said, trail camera getting out there. Um,

And I'm bad about that too. You know, I get kind of lazy after deer season. But then you know, realize me and that that trail camera needs to be in place. So I know, like you said, um, you can find tracks in the field. So okay, we got turkeys using this field, but where they've coming into that said they flying down in that field. Uh, you know, us hunting with our kids, we need that shot. I don't want them taking a forty fifty yard shot or

whatever and they're shooting a cross bow. I want them in there, you know at ten you know, so I mean, no one where in that field they're gonna be, where in that food plot they're gonna be. Just to maximize those opportunities, um, because we do we had so many times where it happened. A couple of years ago, we're hunting a little food plot. Turkeys were in there every day. Uh, but many went wide. You know, they went forty fifty yards from us, and I wanted them closer for my boys.

And one little bit of intail, one little bit of scouting watching that field the day before, the week before, whatever would have showed us. Ey, they're kind of cruising down the other side of that field and you need to be able to there and they've been done deal. So yeah, the timing thing with turkeys. You know, you really learn this when you start doing some fall turkey hunts and see how patternable they are throughout the day. But when you start getting the spring and you know,

people are like, oh it busted loose. There's two year old birds running all over. It's not that random. And you started running trail cameras on some logging roads and field corners and stuff, and you start to see, you know, especially for me, you know up here in Minnesota and Wisconsin where I hunt a lot, if you're out there early season, I'm always trying to get my girls birds like opening day, just to get out before everybody else.

Starts going and you see, like, you know, you want to be there on opening morning, but they're all locked up and they got an agenda. They're gonna go fill their bellies and strutt in the sun. And it's just but you know, ten o'clock in the morning, eleven o'clock,

twelve o'clock. Then you get that afternoon and it's all of a sudden when you start watching them a little bit and you start getting those trail cameras out there, you're like, man, there's been a long beard through here by himself, you know, every day between one and three o'clock in the afternoon, just cruising. You start you start seeing those patterns, and those birds are the ones that

you can just work and kill. Yeah. Absolutely, that's again the same form this guy had been sending me photos. You know, you talk about scout now. I remember going out there. That was the first year I had it and went out there and did that just out listening, just trying to figure out, hey, where where the birds coming from, where they hanging out, where they roosted, all that stuff, and went out there. Never heard a peak.

You know, this guy's like, dude, I got birds everywhere, and uh, never heard a bird off, you know, off the roofs. You never heard a bird gobble, you know, hung out for thirty forty five minute an hour or whatever. Nothing. You know, I go back to gusta, dude, I've never heard anything. Ten o'clock, eleven o'clock, whatever it is. He shows me. He sent me a picture. He's like, here's your birds, man, And they were in the exact field that I was standing listening that morning. You know, they

just they weren't talking that morning. You know. Um, whether we busted him whatever, you know, you gotta those cameras are so huge because those birds showed up midday, never made a sound off the roofs, but they showed up there, and so um, that is it's just a different beast. When when you get that turkey, that's like I said, the morning time comes, you got all the hustle, the bustle, everything's crazy. But when you get that ten to two time, you know, eleven to three, whatever it is at midday,

stuff at a different animal. It's a different bird, and he can he's much more inclined to play the game then you know when he finds himself lonely. So yeah, if you can if you can pin them down when they're using using some area in the middle of the day, and you know, I'm starting to see you know, last year was really interesting for us because on our opener here, I pulled the girls out of school for the afternoon hunt.

And we we've been doing that a lot in the last couple of years, but it was it was bitter cold, snowing, nasty. But those birds. You know, if I if I'm working a big winter flock in the morning, I feel like I got, you know, like a five percent chance you might get somebody to peel off or you know, a

little trio of Jake's or something. But that same flock in the afternoon or the evening is you can call the whole thing in a lot of times if you've got them kind of pinned down and know where they're going. And it's it's to the point now, I mean, we killed three birds last year in the first three days

of the season here. All of them were in the afternoon, and it was just because you know, I don't know, they're just they're just more workable, and I think people, you know, it's you want to be out there when

the sun's rising, just because it's freaking awesome. But if you want to figure out how to kill one, especially if you're bow hunting or trying to get kids on a bird, man that time, you know, when you're not running and gunning and you're not you know, like with my girls, they're not comfortable enough carrying the gun around to go. You know, we hear a gobble on that end of the farm, we're gonna sprint there. That's not happening. Like, we're gonna call them into our laps if we can.

And man, it's it's pretty fun when you get them figured out that way. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like you said that percentage of birds killed the morning, I don't know I've heard it before, but I mean it's it's pretty slim. That's what we always hope for, we strive for. We're like, hey, I got this bird gobbling. You know, we all dream about the bird that pitches down and you shoot him off the roost, and that's kind of

that textbook deal. We still have some of those, you know, had a few of those this past spring, but more times than not, it's it's like you said, it's that bird it's up in the day, that afternoon bird. It didn't. He's he's a different animal. And um, like you said, many he's just so much more workable. And even when he's got I don't know, I noticed it, Even even when he's got hens, you know, like in the morning, it's like when he's ended up, not a chance, not

a chance. But then in the afternoon, I don't know, I don't know if he's just trying to add to the add to the flock or what, but he's much more inclined to come and investigate, comes, try to swoop up another hen or whatever, and just ach much more doable bird, workable bird in that afternoon. And I think

things are just a whole lot more chill. Like you said, if you can be in that right spot and that food that food plot filled, whatever that's it's in and route back to his you know, stomping grounds back to his bedroom, I'd say your your chances are so much more better, more better than in the afternoon. Um, just like I said, it's just a workable bird, you know, at that time of day. So when is the opener down there for you guys, dude, this year we got

bumped back. It's crazy. It's gonna be interesting to see we've got our whole seas got pushed back two weeks. So it's just they're digging at any kind of answers for our decline. See we've here in the South man, it's the numbers are supposedly the numbers are down. Uh, we had our best spring we've ever had in twenty twenty two. So I mean I got new you know, got on some new farms, and it's just good for my family, my kids. We had our best year yet.

But a lot of guys will tell you that. You know, the Turkey population is way down, and so Tennessee's one of the number of states they're just taking chipping away some different you know, variables to see. Uh, they're saying, let's bump it back, not interrupt any you know breeding it's going on, give them a chance to do their breeding and push it back a little bit. Um. So they did that. They moved it from the first weekend

in April to mid April. So yeah, you know, it's when I was talking to guy earlier today, it's like I would like to see him maybe let's you know, the first year, let's maybe try one week. Let's just instead of such a drastic you know, half a month, as it's a lot of time there, and then you you move it back, you're moving into the end of May. Oh my gosh. I mean there's a good chance you've got hens and poles running around at that point, you know. So,

I mean, uh, it's a it's gonna be interesting. But uh used to be. Last weekend in March was uh the youth season. Uh, first weekend in April was you know, the opener. So it's gonna be it's gonna be a different deal because I mean a lot of those birds, like I said, the first part of you know, these next few weeks, first part of March, excuse the end of March. Uh, those new youth hunts were just flocked up, crazy birds everywhere talking, you know, just big bunches, your

big groups. Um. By mid April and things are breaking up pretty good and um, so it's gonna be interesting to see what no pressure does and if it's gonna pay off and be worth such a drastic move, you know for a two week swing. Yeah, I mean that's something you're gonna see. You know, you mentioned that in other states where they're you know, Numeraska's dealing with us a lot of Southern states. Are you know, where the

hell are our birds? And you know, if you talk to Chamberlain and some of these guys who are real Turkey researchers, I mean, one of one of the thoughts behind it is we've gotten so good at killing dominant birds. And it's not you know, at least the way I understand it. It's not just you shoot the dominant tom and the next guy in line gets to breed all the hens. They have to sort everything out again and

figure out who's the dominant bird. And so it's it's delaying or or even shutting down the breeding in some situations. And you know, which seems crazy that we could affect it that much. But when you start looking at like Dave Smith decoys and some of these high end decoys that are I mean, they're they're like a game changer, and people have this stuff figured out pretty well with blinds and like we've we've got a lot of advantages. Now you go, okay, maybe that is the reason the

resource is suffering. But you're you're seeing those kind of situations where they're bumping the season back to let some breeding happen, and you know, changing things, cutting down on you know, instead of three tags, you can buy two or you know, you're you're seeing a change out there. Yeah, and that's it for us, the swing in the season. Uh. You know, you mentioned the fanning, and I don't know if we want to go there and get into that one, because that's as a topic in and of itself, that's

hot as anything. But you know, they for Tennessee anyway, they said no more you know, reaping of turkeys on public land, um, which to me, that's kind of a you know, that ought to be a no brainer, I guess. I mean, really, you know, some of these public pieces of the ground, wildlife management areas, and you're the number of hunters that are out there and you're crawling behind

a strutting fan. I mean, that's just it goes against everything we ever taught right and hunter education, you know, I mean, it's just it's asking for trouble, people getting shot every year doing that stuff. But so they taken that. There was a lot of talk whether just to band the reaping, you know, the full struck you deal altogether, the knocked it out of public land hunting for twenty twenty three. Uh, there's that, and then there was also

the there's a Jake sticulation, there's a Jake regulation. You can only shoot guys. I'm gonna make something up if I try to tell it, but it's it's something like you can only shoot one Jake or you you know, something like that your first bird of the year can be or you know, you shoot one Jake the year or something of that effect. And um, I don't know that it does. Man. I was crushed. I was crushed.

I was like, wait a minute, hold up. You know you're killing me now, you know, you take my spikes and you take my Jakes, and we're gonna have problems you know, here and you know, any anywhere. So um so, yeah, I don't. Like I said, it's some variation of that. It's a limitation on the jokes you can kill, which I mean, I look at it, Mississippi. I think, you know, down the road is I think it's got to be a five or six inch beard or something like that.

And then you know, maybe the kids can you know, maybe it's under sixteen can shoot a Jake or Jake. You know, kid can shoot one Jake or something in his lifetime, you know, But I don't. So they've got that I mean, it's not like it's unheard of. Um, but you know, it goes against you know, it goes against the whole thing of who you know, some guys just want to shoot a bird, you know what I'm saying, And um, now you're gonna make him wait on a long beard or what. I don't know. It's a lot

of that stuff. I get it. Um, opportunities. I like for you know, anybody to have opportunity, you know. I get the things saying, well, kids can shoot a jake. What about the first time or that's twenty five, you know, and he or she wants to go out there, and like, dude, I just want to shoot one of them. I've never done it before. Here comes a whole gaggle of you know, Jake's coming up there in your business and to tell that person, Hey, I know you've never killed one before,

but you can't shoot that one, you know. And so I don't know some of those those rules and regulations. I think that you know, oversee some stuff that you know probably shouldn't be there. But I think Tennessee's doing if I understand it correctly, you can still shoot one. You can have that you have that ground shrink and gets you in the uh and still it away with

one bird. So we'll say, yeah, I mean they're all just you know, some of those chipping away, trying to chip away some of those different issues to help you figure out what what might work, you know, And they that was the other thing. They liberalized the take of trapping of coons, you know, made it pretty much a year round instead of you know, whatever it was, you know, November to February. Now it's pretty much year round trapping and coons. So those some good steps from that kind

of stuff. You know, could we do I mean, the coons that issue and you know coon skunks, possible, any of that stuff. I mean we quit trapping those when the fur prices went down the market shot and nobody wanted to trap them, and here they are exploded. So yeah, the next predator things a big deal. And you know it's tough right when you when you talk about some of those regulations and talk about not being able to shoot a jake or whatever, it doesn't make me feel

all that good. You know, we have enough. We have enough issues with dear man management and quality deer management stuff and whatever side of the fence you fall on that, and then you think about turkeys, and one of the beautiful things about turkey hunting was it's like no trophies, like not really, you know, and just to go out

and enjoy it. But you know, I don't mind state game agencies trying stuff like that if it's for the resource and they go, you know, this is a three year thing or whatever, and if it's if it doesn't make a difference, we're going back or we're gonna try something different. What I hate is when you get stuff like that that's supposed to be for the resource and then it's just like that's just the way it is forever.

You know. We we dealt with that. And maybe I'm a little spicy over this, but you know, one of my favorite hunts that we used to have was the January grouse season and northern Wisconsin because nobody was there. I mean, we my buddies and I would go over there like two weekends a year in January and hunt those birds on public land and I never saw another

hunter in like a decade. And then they you know, they had some grouse population issues and so they go, well, they you know, an easy win is to get rid of this and it's like, well, where the January hunters killing that many birds? Like where's the data on this? Like is there is there a way we could address this? And then when you see it go away because there wasn't a whole lot behind that. It was just like kind of a politically easy win. It wouldn't piss off

too many people. But there's that opportunity's gone forever and you're like, well, did it did it work? You know, like where do we end up with a sacrifice? Because it's gone. So we lost a hunting opportunity, But did it matter? And if it did, like you know, I mean, if the if the numbers improved and it was linked to that, great, But if it was just one of those things where they're like, well let's just do this,

that that bothers me a little. Yeah, it's like, show me some show me some research, show me some data, all that stuff, because I'm all four. Whatever helps out, you know, I'm all four. You know you're telling me that this, you know, this tactic is going to help us get our population by whatever percentage by the next couple of years. We'll shoot, let's do that. If we need to drop a bird, if we need to, uh, you know, out of the bag limit if we need

to not use this, do use this whatever. If you tell me that's to boost things up, and here's your your research and the facts that are going to back that up, that's great. Let's do that. And then after three or four years and not show me some more

data you know that this, this did you know? But man, I see so much listening to podcasts earlier today, you know, from Turkey biologists, and it's like, my gosh, man, the more I listen to these guys that are the scientists of biologists on stuff, the more I feel like, I don't think we know. I don't think they know, you know. I mean so many times they say, well, we really don't have the information we need. And that's kind of what I hear a lot. You know, it's kind of scary.

I mean, I don't know. I think we're kind of being reactive and stuff a lot of it instead of, you know, stuff we should have been kind of tracking the last ten or twenty years, you know, when things were good. I think everybody just loved the heyday of Turkey population and now we're kind of reactive to the fact. Oh gosh, something's going on, and nobody seems to know.

You know. Like I said, when I see these questions, they're like, Hi, we just really don't have the you know, we just want the information we need or the research we need. And I'm like, well, when are we going to get that? You know? I mean we've been talking last three or four years now, Okay, we're almost you know, in five years now, wondering what's up with this stuff? Five years you could probably have gotten some pretty good

data collected there. And um, but yeah, like you said, I mean you start getting to where you take something out and say let's just try this, and it's gone. You don't usually get those things back, you know what I'm saying. You don't get that bird back, that that extra bag limit, that season, that extra weekend, whatever it is. They take it out, and most time it's that slippery slope.

One time's gone, it's not coming back, and then it's that much easier for them to say, well, let's just hatch away next one, you know, And so anyone, it's tough. It is. It's a lot of political bullcraft that goes on. And Tennessee, are our folks here pretty good? I know some of the commissioners here and making the rules regulations. But man, it's a lot of politics in it that

just doesn't seem to slide the right way. Yeah, I mean I wish I used to have to do a lot of interviews with you know, dear biology and wildlife researchers, and you know, how do they count deer and how do they count wolves? And you know, how do we know from year to year that we have this number? And where do the estimates come from? And it really it's really like a lose lose situation because they counting wild game populations is hard, like I mean, impossible really

to be all that accurate a lot of times. But I always look at it, like over in Wisconsin, when you register a deer, you have to answer this little survey on you know, how many deer did you see today? How is it the weather? How do you rate the weather?

How much? How many hours did you put in? And I look at that and I go, Man, if you're if you're worried about turkey populations, if you know, if you have people register them online, they could create any kind of survey they want and at least track you know, it's anecdotal but it would be such a large sample size that you could say, wow, you know, two years ago people were reporting seeing you know, six turkeys per hunt.

Now they're seeing three. You know, and you know, of course you've got to bias there with successful hunters and whatever, but at least I think we could be gathering more information from the people all over your state who are out there, sitting there in the spring or sitting there in the fall, and at least get some of these trends down and go, okay, is this because because you always wonder, you know, I mean, you listen to people bitch in certain places, like well there's no deer left,

and then you go hunt there and you have an awesome hunt. You're like, okay, well who am I hearing from? Like, and those some of those voices are really loud, and sometimes when you meet those people, you're like, well, you just really don't know what you're doing. Like it's it's too small of a sample size and too vocal of

a you know, of a little segment there. And so I'd like to see that because that would be that's a really small ask for hunters to have to fill out a little survey or something that's already you know, it comes right up on your phone when you or you know, to buy your next license. Okay, well we see you bought turkey license. You were unsuccessful? What happened? And just fill it all right there and we could be gathering some real data and at least using that. Yeah, now,

I'd be huge. You not hear them talking about you know, some of these bologers talk about purchasing with some of these funds that have been raised for different fundraisers for you know, NWTA for Turkeys for Tomorrow or whatever it is, and they're buying these I don't know what they calm

song meters or whatever. It's basically just you know, some kind of device that they're hanging up in the woods and the trees, and it's basically gathering if from what I understand, you know, the number of gobbles, you know, like it's just a recording device. I had all the

recording device and sticking it up out there. Of course, I kind of wonder like, okay, that's the best we can do for researchers, have a you know, audio recorder out there recording gobbles, and I mean, I know all that different stuff comes in and the data there and they can figure out whatever. And they they're smarter with that than I am, obviously. But just like you talk about, you take a survey and then and everybody becomes a

recording device. Right, how many turkeys did you hear this morning? How many turkeys did you know? What's the most you heard, what's the least you heard? You know, whatever? Did you hear? Turkeys? You know, goblin every hunt, like you said, now, every person, every hundred and the spending of the spring turkey woods is somebody collecting data, you know, and so that would be huge and like you said, him, you're talking five

minutes survey. You know, you talk about the number of birds they saw, a number of birds that you know, the number of Jake's number of you know, all that stuff. It could be, like you said, a real simple ask, but huge data for them just to work off of. And then you know, just kind of get across the board because like you said, you you can't go by what you hear somebody griping about on Facebook, Like you said, the loudest, the loudest voices that guy that's ticked off

because he doesn't have anywhere to go. Yeah, ever sees a turkey. If he does see a turkey, can't kill it, you know. And he's just a horrible hunter, but he's gonna be the one that's gonna be riping the most, the loudest voice out there. The reality is he just sucks at playing the game. And so here's you know, that's not you know, you can't figure that into the averages, you know, as far as that goes so well, and you would have the opportunity too. I mean, I was

out the other day in my driveway. One of my neighbors walked up and he's a he's a big Upland hunter. He's got English setters and really good dude, and so he came up to talk to me about last pheasant season and we were bsen and he hunts probably, you know, maybe an hour and a half kind of from where I like to hunt, so a little bit different part

of the state, but not real far. And he knows his stuff, He has good dogs, hunts hard, and he's like, man, we really struggled to find birds this year, and you know, we shot some roosters, but it wasn't it wasn't great, you know. And I was like, and he's asking me and I was like, man, I had an amazing year. We were covered in birds. And if you had enough people, you know, filling out a survey or whatever, you could say, well, geez, this region seems to be hopping. This one seems to

be on a decline. Why what's the habitat? Like, what's what's the predator situation like? And it probably could allow them to tweak you know, some management strategies around you know, high and low populations. But you know, it's easy. It's easy to sit here and solve all these problems without having to do anything. You when you're going to start out there down there in Tennessee, what's your decoy situation like?

Because I I have people ask me all the time about my my setups, and I'm I'm real particular about decoys. What do you what do you go with? Like opening morning? What's your setups? Your setup? Yeah, so my routine has typically been and if I can, if I can carry a few decoys. Um, I've got a laid down hen um or we call them the breeder. It's just a hen and um it's on the ground like she's laid down ready to be bred. I'll have that and I'll

have a jake standing behind. I use the avan X decoys. Um, and so yeah, that little breeder hen laying on the ground. I've got this Jake decoy and I don't know what they call it, Jake deco, but it's just a crazy good looking Jake decoys. Not strutting. Is it like a quarter strut? Maybe a quarter strut um, Yeah, maybe that quarter strut. He's just got a little boat up look about him or you know whatever. I can't remember which one it is, but I put that right behind it,

like he's ready to step up on her. And then I use that feeder. So I use a reader, the feeder, and then that jake and the feeder. To me, it's just a head down. She's got her head down kind of, you know, like she's pecking away, you know, bugging across the field. But that one, to me, and if I had just one, I'd probably use her because that one there, to me, it works as a confidence because that you know, um, that bird whatever it be hens a bit a gobbler.

He looks out there and he sees, oh man, she's over there, she's feed she got food, she's content, No no problems. It's just like waterfowl. You know, you got that old confidence equal to whatever it is you use for me. That's it. For the turkey, it's just that feeder.

She's she's content, she's chill. But also the fact that she's got her head down and she's feeding, and that God refers many times that gobbler comes up and he just keeps pushing him to come on because he's like, hey, look at me, ship, you know whatever I mean, He's like, you know, look up. And so she's not paying hm attention. It's almost like she's playing hard to get and he's

got to come on in. He'll strut you, come out of street and walk on the Hey look at me, you know if she's not looking, and he marches right in because he wants her to get her head up and look. And so I like those two. That feeder is a good is a good piece. That's kind of mine. I use those three if I can have the opportunity to haul him in using whatever the setup is. I'll usually start off with that. When the ground is, you know, not a lot of grass growing up, fields are still low.

Um that breeder jake behind it again, man, No, No, Goblin's right mine's gonna put up with that little pump Jake stand up and getting ready to breed one of the you know hens. I mean, what is he missing out on? You know? So, I mean that one's pretty

pretty strong and it just seems to work. I don't know that early season, well, I say early see, it seems to work all along, but early on, I mean once once everything gets up and you know, the field start growing up, that that you know, breed or laying on the ground is kind of out of the options because it's you know, just at it's laying down, they don't see it. But um, that's a pretty tough setup, man. That's kind of my favorite setup is ands using that

just again, it's kind of pushing him. You try to take off that bird and let him know as a young punk in here hanging out with the ladies and he had a hard time handle that one. Yeah, that's that's typically what I go with. I'm using Dave Smith's but it's the same principle where you've got to lay down hand and you know, I try to get her on like a little golpher mound or something, just to

get her up just a little bit. And then I pushed that jake decoy right down on top of her, so he's like five inches off the ground, because I see a lot of people put their decoys way up high.

Looks a little bit unnatural. And then I'll usually do a feeder and then he's got a leading hand decoy it's called and she's always way out front, and if you string them in the same direction, they it just looks like that little flock following that lead hand she's going somewhere, and that you know, the jake's trailing and he so often, like you're talking about, where you kind

of get that bird. You know, sometimes they just come barreling in and you're good to go, but you get that one that's like, I'm kind of looking I'm showing you my stuff. I get a lot of times, especially when i'm bow hunting him where that birdled. Get to lake forty fifty yards and he'll finally pick up that that breeder hen on the ground, and then his demeanor will change and he goes, oh, I'm not I'm not showing off anymore. I'm coming in. And you see that

switch a lot of times. If you see it, you know, you know, if you're in like a lower spot in the field, like a corner. A lot of times will be a little lower and those birds will get there and they can see everything pretty good, but they get to a point where they catch that that little hen peeking up underneath that jake, and then it's just freaking over. Oh dude, you can see it in that body language.

He's so pissed when he realized what's going on. And like you said, he goes from that kind of that looking and struttingto just that meanwalk he does and he comes in. You can just stiff leg and he's marching and you see them feathers bristled up and he's coming and he's just he's pissed, man. And it's like, like you said, he the switch is flipped and he's coming, and I mean, gosh, that's exciting when it happens. And you know he's coming in there to clean house, and

do you know you're not tolerating that stuff. So yeah, that's a fun deal. Like Mike finally kept up limps. Let's say you around a just a typical field edge

set up in the morning. You know those birds are gonna be walking out right, so I kind of set them up where, you know, whatever my shot is, I want that that jake there, you know that jake had that twenty yards or if I'm bow hunting at seven eight yards whatever, And then it looks like everything's coming out of the woods in a line, you know, like turkeys would do. Or I'll reverse it in the evening. But I always have my birds facing the same way, travel in the same direction. I see people, and I

know they kill birds, so it probably doesn't matter. But you see people will put you know, like they're jake or they're strutter right in the middle, and then they'll put a hen on one side facing away and a hen on the other side facing away, and you know they're dumb birds, right, But you look at that and you go, I never see wild birds do that. They're always going the same direction. Yeah. Well, and when you do see them looking different directions of what is it?

It's yeah, it's you know, a coyote just came in the field and so all of a sudden, their heads up and they're all looking. You know what I'm saying, They're looking, and they're all different directions, like checking things out. To me, when I see different heads going different ways, something just spook them and they're looking for danger, you know.

So yeah, I mean that's a good sign of something ain't right when you know, heads are just periscope and they're looking all around, and so yeah, that's definitely not a natural presentation. And if anything at all, it's a it's a sign of you know, of danger and them on alert and looking and trying to figure out something that's up, you know. So yeah, you try to keep them, like you said, at that lead hen, that lead hen

decoy or whatever, just keeping that natural float. Man, they're falling somebody, you know, and she's going to be that hen out front and the rest of them just kind of picking along. You got that little string of birds lined out there. So that's a you know, very natural presentation, you know, to have that set up where everybody's doing that natural flow falling it that lead him. Yeah, I think it might all be in my head, but I think some of that stuff when you're hunting pressured birds matters.

And I also think I've really gotten into uh set ups on like logging roads where I can I can catch him like mid morning where those birds, you know, they hear you. You can do some scratching and throw it in there and mix it up a little bit, but they gotta get pretty close to lay eyes on it. They don't get that stand two hundred yards away and check stuff out kind of thing. They're gonna have to

get there to see it. But you don't, you know, you don't want to surprise them, but you want to get it where it's like he pops out forty fifty yards away and sees it, and then he's already in that red zone where when he catches that breeder underneath there, he's coming. And you get those situations with the right birds that you scout it out and it's like it's

almost a guarantee. Yeah, yeah, that's fine, that's right, almost, unless you're hunting with me, and then it's it's I'm the should have been here yesterday, guy, I'm the small percentage that went wrong. That's that's my that's my hunts usually. But now it's it's fun like so when it when it happens, when it works, it's good stuff. But like you said, man, having them where they can see it

from a distance, it's the key to me. Um, you know, having a let them see it, no big surprises, you know, they freak out and pop out and right on top of Oh, you know, he's a whole flock right here and didn't even see him here, you know whatever. Um, But I like when you're talking about, like they said, that situation where they see him from a distance, he gets a chance to, you know, in his terms, you know, see it and take a look at it, investigate it, and then march on in when he see what he

likes or don't like it. I mean, if it's in a spot where they expect to see birds too. I mean, if you've got a scout at Elton, there's you know, birds going through that logging road at you know, seven thirty in the morning, at ten o'clock in the morning and noon, and it's pretty consistent back and forth movement. It just seems like they're just like, oh, I've heard calling, I hear scratching, and now I see this little flock

that I kind of expected to bump into. Uh do you do Do you do much bow hunting for him? Or you mostly shotgun hunting them? Shot you gun mostly? These days? You know a lot, It was a lot. There was a time when you know, back in the double bull days, you know, uh, that was like all I did. You know, I was doing some pro staff with those guys, and that's all I did, man and bow hunting them and just um, you know, ground blind and and that was that was it. And I enjoyed

that time, you know, I enjoyed those days. And uh and I don't really know what changed for me other than maybe just coming back when we're in Montana. That's all we did. You know, we bow on them. You can only shoot one bird there, so kind and they were so easy. There was kind of like, you know, be a little silly to chaste them with a shotgun. You know, it's just a perfect deal for the bow.

Moved back here chasing these Eastern birds again and just a challenge of it, but also hunting with my kids and whatever kind of transition back to toting that that shotgun now, I just I loved, you know, the running gun. I kind of got tired of sitting in a blind hearing birds do something, knowing I need to be over there,

not right here. Uh and you know, wanted to bail out that line and take off and so and not a few can't run a gun with the bow, but I mean I love that crawling sneak and moving whatever, you know, just position. It's a chess match of turkey hunting. So these days, man, we've been talking the little twenty gage and even this last year we shot him all at four ten, you know, so it's been kind of

cool getting back into that. But yeah, Karen, the boomsticks kind of been fun, you know, these last few years. I'll enjoyed it again. If you can't find any of those four ten turkey shells this year, it's because my daughters shot them all last year. We are We're not hunting with four tens anymore. We for the first couple of years they did really well with it, and then we had such an epic meltdown last year that it

was it was something I've never seen before. I went out there with those little girls and we had nine shells and we got one bird and I had to strangle that pup at the end because we were out of shells, and I was just at one point there everybody in the blinds crying and I'm going, guys, I don't know, I don't know what we have going wrong. I don't know what's going on. We got a reset and it was a it was a meltdown that. I mean, imagine shooting nine times at turkeys in your decoys and

you kill one jake. And and that was a jake that got shot in the ass on the first shot. It was when I was digging in my backpack for that second box of shells, I was like, guys, we gotta get our ship together. I don't know, I don't

know how to do this any other way. But then I took my one daughter, who didn't kill but missed a lot that day the next day, and I brought the twelve gage out and put it in the death grip, and I was like, it's gonna be a different deal here, honey, Like, just just put that on the base of his neck. And she after she shot her bird that night, and she said, I'm never going back to that other gun. I'm like, good, I can't find any shells for it anyway,

Like yeah, right right, oh dude. And man, that is a special kind of panic when you know you just ran out of that you just shot your last shill, flung your last arrow. That sucker is still standing there, you know, standing there alive, and you're like, oh my gosh. And you're like you said, you're digging through your jacket, your pockets, your turkey vest and there ain't another shell that suckers out there still alive or flopping or running

or whatever. And oh my gosh, I've lived that one out so many times, and that just the panic that sets in, thinking, oh my gosh, I'm out of shells, so I'm gonna still beat this thing with the gun, you know, and whatever and run down whatever. It's a yeah, I feel you, man, that's a that's a meltdown. I don't care if I with the girls, boys or whatever. That's uh, well, you've been there and experience that, and it's you're doing your best you can, you know, I am,

you know, just to keep cool. I'm pretty bad about that. Like, yeah, me too, dude. Come on, you know, you're like, you're like, hey, what's out here to have a good time? And then that last shell goes and birds still stick? What do you do it? You come on, you get your crapping there. You gotta shoot the bird, shoot him in the net, come on, please, you know whatever, and just falling apart. Yeah, I was. It was a rough one. It was a

rough one. And the worst part was is I mean, so my dad the first shot, you know, called in three jakes. She hit it. Not great, but not terrible, you know. I mean those tungs and shells they're gonna they do some damage. And he was he was showing some signs of having trouble. But by the time we were nine shells deep into it and we still only had that bird to go run down. I was just like,

I never thought that could happen, you know. I mean they they killed their first birds when they were eight, smoked them, shot birds when they were nine, smoked them. And then we had that night and it was like it was crazy. I mean it pulled them out of school at two o'clock and we were we were out of shells at like four thirty. I mean, it's just what do you think happened? What did happen? What do you think? Man? I don't know, because we patterned that

gun and it was, you know, fifteen yards. I just think I think they were they just picked their head up or they were they just weren't aiming. Like something happened. I don't know. And it was it wasn't because of the gun. It wasn't because the shelves. It was just they might have been flinching, and you know that kind of stuff when it goes wrong and it starts to spiral, you know, the pressure kicks in and you know, you just my one daughter, I know for sure, she just

really rushes her shot. Yeah, and so she was just rushing it too much. And the other one she's usually really good, like she's been good on deer and turkeys and really, you know, the year before, made a great shot on a big tom and just I think it was just not when it didn't go right the first time. Then it was real downhill and you know, like you said, like I didn't handle it well, you know after because a single shot gun. Like after a while, I was like, guys, yeah,

like we're not this is like a gift. I mean we're calling in birds like you're not gonna get this. You know, it's a first day you're hunting them, and but it's whatever. You know, they're they liked that little gun and it's a great gun for it can be, you know, real effective. But I'm like, we're going a little more horsepower next time, and we're just gonna do

it differently. And you know, it happens. And then I took my brother in law and my nephew out like three days after we had that epic meltdown, and we got into the blind in the rain. I started calling and like twenty minutes later I looked up in seven redheads popped over the hill and here comes seven Jakes and you know, right into the decoys and he's like, I think he was twelve last spring, big kid. I'm like, just pick one, they're all whatever. And he shoots and

they're all just standing there. So another shell in the chamber, and I said, just whatever one you want, buddy, And I watched him shoot that gun and I'll bet he didn't hold I bet that bead wasn't within six feet of those turkeys, just like just like pulled the trigger to get it over with. So I was like, well, we gotta stop this and reset because we can't be shooting up into outer space here, like we gotta and

you know, so it's just you forget, you know. I mean, you take people who are pretty accustomed to carrying a shotgun around and they blasted a bunch of turkeys that turkey walks in Most of the time, it's like this is the easy part, you know, Like getting them there is mostly the hard part. But you take kids out and you realize like and you know, I mean it's it really kind of helps you shore up your game too,

Like did they see us a little bit? Or like you know, we're gonna have a more movement and less confidence in the shot. So you better you better have your decoy placement right. You better know how to call, like especially in the heat of the moment you get one shot at it doesn't bust away. You better know how to keep them birds around. And it's it's a high stress environment. Oh my gosh, I'm sweating just here. And you talk about it like this is kind of crafted.

It's about this time of year. I'll start having Mayor's about this very thing you just describe in the last five minutes. Um, you know, just sat, you know, my kid just shooting, closing his eyes, shooting, you know, shooting out of Just get it over with, just send it and I'm you know, panic mode, um all that stuff. Man, don't let the social media photos fool you. I can be you know, go from Daddy of the Year too. He wrote his zero real quick, you know in that

ground line or you know whatever. But it's just because you do we forget about the fact, hey we're dealing with the nine year old. You know, we're dealing with the nine year old and can't really comprehend or handle the crap, you know, load of crap we're putting on him right now, you know, I mean, I think about it. You know, my heart's racing so bad when that golber comes in there. You know, with a forty five year old, man,

it's up more than I can handle. A lot of times I get so tore up and I think I'm gonna you know, it's gonna kill me. I'm gonna have a heart attack right here. I'm so excited these birds are coming, marching right to me. And then we dumped that onto a nine or ten year old. I'm like, come on, do what's your problem? I mean, you shot a whole box of shells that was sixty bucks. He ain't got a turkey yet. What are you doing? You know, like you're gonna pay me back for that crap? What

are you doing? You know? And oh, but it's um that's what makes it fun. Like you said, we pull our hair out just just trying to get them there. But like you said, man, the biggest thing for me is like, dude, I watched you knock the crap out of one last year. You know, you you've you've been killing and then they had one of these meltdowns and they came hit the broad side of a barn in your one and like, what happened to you? Where'd my

kid go? You know? And uh, you know. So it's fun, man, But you know what would be the best thing for guys like us in that situation if we could just look up into the sky and see or replay of like our last five years of hunting and all the mistakes we've made. That's true. I mean I think about that stuff all the time. I mean I I had a meltdown mussloader hunting deer this year. Really good opportunities slipped through my fingers, you know what. I pheasant hunt

like a fiend, right, Like I love it. And they'll be days, you know, I'll go a whole weekend and maybe not miss a rooster, like and then I'll have a hunt where I'll have a bird get up and fly straight away and I'll empty both barrels and go never touched him. And then five minutes later I'll have another rooster. Do the exact same thing, and you're like, I think I could have got that bird with a sling shot and I can't get it with my twelve

gage here, and it's you know, you forget. But I think part of it is, you know, you take your kids out, or you take a nubie out, you're like, I just I want it for him so bad, you know, and then you just lose your ship, and then you feel bad, and it's just it's just tough. It's tough being a idiot. I guess. Yeah. Well, there's been a lot of those times where I have I finally cool it off. I'm like, hey, dude, I'm sorry. I'm not sure what all I said back there. Oh, but I

want to apologize for any of it. It It wasn't cool, and what's with most of it? But my old n well he just turned ten, ten year old Rambo heat he'll call you out of that stuff though, you know, he's he's the one that you know, I don't know. I mean, he's the one and he's want to shot the antler off off of the deer this year and that was you know, ending of himself. And he called that, He called me out to dad. Look, I was aiming right where I needed to. You just didn't aim. You

didn't have a gun dialed in. You know, you didn't have a dialed in right, you know. And he was right, went back and shot and the gun was off, you know. And um, but he'll I can't remember what it was this season. Um, same kind of deal. Idem melt And then I'm like, you, man, I missed several of the rifle hunting. Just do meet, you know, no killing and miss several And he said, uh, he's in the blind. He said, Dad, you will men, you'll meet to shoot one.

And like, I'm like, shut your mouth. If I won't want you shoot one, I'll hang you the gun, you know. And and he didn't. He didn't. He thought I was kidding, and I, you know, I tried to act like I was kidding. I was serious, Like you should you know, sit there and shut your mouth. Boy, you watch watch me. And he's like why I just and he didn't pick up on that, and he was like he took a step first. He said, I was just figured since you weren't hitting any I can try. Yeah. Uh. They's sitting

him home, you know, get back to the truck. Boy. But my kids like it when I screw up to believe me. Yeah, and it yeah, you know, it just is what it is. What are you using for calls? What's what's your go to? Man? I I've got a little bit of everything, but I you know, I've got some mouth calls. I've just been last little a couple of years, been trying to figure out how to you know, just hand make my own calls. Mouth calls. Got a little press now use and so um I'll use you know,

mouth calls. That's all my always my goal too. That's tell folks say you got to learn to use a mouth call. I mean, yeah, A box call. To me, I've got a box call sounds as good as anything out there. It's a little Premost uh tall timber Gabriel from Premost, and it's it's not you know, they just started it in the last five years or so, but it just sounds so good. I mean, it's just such a good sound. A box call. I love it. Um,

you know, slate calls, whatever. But man, people, you gotta learn use that mouth call because that bird's gonna hang up out there in sixty to seventy yards and you need just a little more, need one little note whatever, let him know, and you reach over that slate call, reach over and wrap off in that box called that

little movement that you busted. And so I try to make sure I've always got that mouth call my cheek and encourage people to make sure they know how to use it, just to hit that little note without moving, you know, be able to hit one more one more lick on the call without having to move and and uh, you know, put a call in your hands. So mouth call, uh, that box call is always close by. Again. It's like, you know, it's got so much more volume. On those windy days, I like to use it and just really

want to crank out some volume. And man, I've been carrying a little tooth call. Um, I've got a little tooth call that I've been using and last a little bit. And it's just whatever I can. I can yelp on it, but I can gobble on it. One thing I use a lot is just doing at Jake Calcin you know, on it, you know, sort of that half gobble u or Jake Calcin sound whatever. And um, I think it's just fact. It's something different, you know, not many guys

are doing it. It's a sound that you know, a lot of guys really may not know how to do or can't do, and so it's just something different. I'm always looking for something different than everybody else that's got the same old you know, same old call. You know, everybody the brothers got the same box call or you know whatever. Um, just something that will separate me from every other sound that they've heard from, you know, the players out there. So yeah, man, I agree so much

on the mouth call thing. Like I think, if you're listening to this and you've never turkey hunted or you're you're you're new to it, you got to learn how to use a mouth call. I mean, there's just you know one. I know. I know a lot of people don't like bow hunting turkeys because you're stuck in a blind generally, but man, you really learn how to get birds in the decoys if you can't move and when

you get close birds. You know, if you think about a bird that walks in when you're shotgun hunting, he's thirty yards away and you shoot him in the head and he's old, it's done. But you think about how often when you're bow hunting them where they're hanging up at thirty yards and the hens are in your decoys and you listen to that chatter and that back and forth and those content little purrs and clocks and stuff.

There's you can do some of that stuff on like a slate call, and I mean you can make some of it happen with other calls, but man, a mouth call, there isn't a call that you can't make. I mean, you're talking about gobbling my locator call. Now. I gobble with a mouth call all the time, you know, Like you you want to get a bird to sound off on the roost, or you want to get a bird to sound off close, you gobble, you know, And I mean you got to be careful with that, you know.

I don't do it nearly as much when I'm on public land obviously, but there's a lot of situations where I can find a bird with that, And it's like if I need to really go and like you said, you know, if you're running and gunning, like every other call requires some kind of movement typically that mouth call, doesn't you know. And I love for me, my go to is I carry a couple of slates and and some mouth calls, and then that way I can run a slate and I can kind of like back and

forth yelp. You know you can do with a box call too. I just like using a slate but sounding like two birds. And then you you know, like if you if you call in a hand like a dominant hen and get her fired up and you listen to that interaction. I mean you almost never do that without striking up a bird somewhere. Like if you get a real hand that comes in and she's hot and she's pissed and you're going toe to toe with her, if there's a gobbler that can hear it, he's gonna gobble

and you can. Yeah, and you can do that if you if you're pretty good with a mouth call and a slate caller a box call, you can make that sound happen that interaction. That to me is like ten eleven o'clock when you haven't had a gobble for a couple hours. Man, it can be be real good in a hurry. Yeah. Yeah. The first bird I ever killed back in college, had a guy with me from Louisiana. We're up in Virginia, hunt and he came all the way from Louisiana out there. Good, good, Turke hunting back

there in late nineties, and um, that's what he did. Man, I've been hunt this place a couple of days and just not do any good. He comes to town and I'll go with him. Man, I'll hope you call an older guy. And sure enough, dude, he had a slate call on one hand, mouth call and he was just eating it up right off the roost. And I mean, we had this gobbler that I killed, marching up the hill, up to side the mountain, come from pitch down, comes

marching back up and I shoot the thing. And he was just working that double that dual action calling, slate calling, mouth calling. It sounded so good, Like you said, that gyler got fired up and he wouldn't shut up. Man. Once. He just it's like he said, hey, I want in on this action. These hens are going nuts, and the sound of the calls and he just just as quick as he could go, just coming up the mountain. So it is, man, it's it's putting those sounds out there,

keeping it real. Man, that's what folks really. You know, we make out this thing to be a whole lot more than it really is. I mean, you know, the name of the game is just keeping it real. You're painting a picture in that animal's mind. Whatever you do, whether it be scratching in the leaves, those soft subtle sounds, whatever it is you do, your your decoys, it's all painting a picture in that animal's mind. You know, what are you telling? That's the thing. If we're just keep

that in mind, what are you telling that bird? You know when you put the decoys out, when you make those sounds, a lot of guys will you know, they think they're cutting at a bird and they're actually putting, you know, alarm, putting the sound, and you are something that's it's just knowing those different sounds and creating a picture in image in that bird's mind of this is where he needs to be, you know, And what are you gonna say do or show him? Make that happen.

You know, when I was growing up, you know, I killed my first bird when I was fourteen, and all the advice was yelped three times and shut up, you know, And then I always hunted every back. Then I had a draw tag in the fall, but I started fall

hunting as soon as I started spring hunting. And you call in a flock in the fall, and you're like, oh my god, these things are making noise constantly, and they're keeping track at each other, and they're getting territorial on their food, like they get real protective of their food sources. And you go, man, there's a whole world of communication going on here that we don't necessarily think about. And then, you know, in the spring, you get out there and you get those hands or kind of busted

up and you're just like yop yo. Three times. They're like, Okay, she's just saying she's here. There's nothing to that, you know. But if she's starting to challenge that dominant hen over there, she's real fired up and she's cutting hard. And now there's another hen perr and the clock in or whatever that Now it's like there's something going on there. And think how often you know, you see this a lot?

If you scout them, like right before the season opens, you get out there in like late March, and you'll see like that main flock of birds, and then you see that little flock pop out in the corner, and then when they meet up, there's all kinds of turkey sounds going on there. And basically what you're doing out there is you're saying, I got this little flock here, somebody else showed up, and you know how often that happens.

Then you look and then there's the big guy in the corner, he's checking things out, or the jake's come running in, and like you said, you're selling something to them, and it's not that interesting. A lot of times to just hear an animal go yeah, I'm here, I'm scratching away like a big deal. Like they hear that all day long. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they need to hear something that just listen that response. I mean, they need to hear something that, uh makes it worth leaving what they

got to come hang out with you. And a lot of times just just kicking that in off. Some ask THEO the day in a seminar, like, hey, what do you do? You know when he's hind up, You've got you know, you've got hens over there. And I was like, you gotta you've gotta get her, you gotta get her to you, and then you gotta kiss her off. U. I just I started mimicking her. Whatever she said, I say it right back to her. And you know, and I mean, it's everybody loves a cat fight, right, we'd

like to see chicks fights. We're gonna go to see that, we're gonna check that out, we're gonna follow that. And and you get her popping off and you just said it right back with whatever she says, and man, that just drive her crazy. And then, like you said, two flocks coming together and it's good stuff. Yeah, it's I think there's there's something to that too. With those dominant hens. They you know, they're never alone. Yeah, I mean you just watch them. They've got the best food sources. Like

they're they'll fight, you know. I mean you you don't see it in the spring. You do see it in the springs, sum you see it in the fall where they come in chest bumping decoys and they're they're just as nasty and ready to fight. And you shoot a bird like you arrow a bird in the fall, those other ones jump right on top of it, and you're like, this is only what Tom's they're supposed to do, but they're all savages and you you start you start thinking

about that. You know, you're like, oh, I gotta what do I gotta do to get this Tom in. It's like most of the time, if you just know how to call hens really well, you're gonna win the game every time. Like you know, you get you get a hot bird. He's coming like, he's not that hard to call in that the hen that's just contentedly feeding over there one hundred and fifty yards away. If you can talk her and you win all the turkeys, that's right. Yeah,

you just gotta get her fired up. And like you said, she'll come in there, she'll march in there, and she'll bump that decoy. She'll um. And I've seen him to this strutting. You know a lot of people think, oh, you know hen strutting. Yeah, absolutely, you know they're the little half strutt you set fan come out and um and she's ticked man, And she's like you said, she's bumping that decoy, she's raising up on it and just oh,

it's a dominant thing. You know. She's not gonna be just like that gobbler's not gonna put up with another gobbler up in his business. She's the same way. You know, this is her stopping grounds and here comes this little hussy and you're talking big talk, and so come in there and straight in the situation out. Yeah, I mean,

when you start paying attention to them. That's one of the reasons I love glassing them right before the season, because when they're breaking up and they're starting to fight and get ticked at each other, you just get just a crash course on like dominance and the hierarchy out there. And I'll never forget. This was a couple of years ago.

I was hunting two two big birds are always with this flock on this farm by my house, and I knew these birds pretty well, and I finally called them in through this this kind of high spot in this swamp and they're on their way back to roost. I was bow hunting them and I shot at the lead tom, and he was the dominant one. He had one buddy with him who was subordinate, and that was it. They like, it was just like clear cut. He was he would strut, he wouldn't. And I hit that bird low and get

him in the leg and so he started limping. And I mean the instant that that Tom started limping, that other bird puffed up and went over there and started bullying him around. I mean it was like it was like one second and that subordinate time said there's my window and I'm taking it, and I'll bet you that kind of stuff happens to Turkey's every day. I mean, not that specifically, but they're always looking for that look at that off too. Yeah, i mean I've seen it

for years. You know how quickly they go from strutting together, buddy, buddy too, I'm gonna stomp your head in the ground now that you're laying there, you know, and they do. They stamp each other, so they're pack them, pick their head up and throw them after they're laying there dead. And it's a it's an interesting game, and you know, I'd love to see more of the science behind that. You know, can we talk about it earlier? When you take out that dominant bird? What happens? You know, can

they handle it, can they produce? How long does it take them to get their mojo together and be able to breathe a hen and and be effective not be shooting lanks? You know, there's a lot of that of variables that they say has an impact. But man, it's it's fascinating to watch that happened, you know, to see that's the board, a bird step up and realize that, oh man, the moss sit down. Uh, here's my moment, you know. So it's good stuff. Yeah, it's it's it's

pretty cool stuff to see. I wanted to ask you, so I've I've hunted southern birds some like a little bit, not not nearly as much as northern birds and birds in the middle of the country. But there's always this kind of uh and I'm totally stereotaping here, but it happens a lot. Southern turkey hunters talk a lot of shit about northern birds. And you you live down there in Tennessee, you've probably hunted north and south quite a bit. Like do you see a big difference in the call

ability of birds north to south or not? I think for me, the biggest difference is m you know, you hear people say turkey's a turkey wherever. But I think the biggest thing is it's just a pressure that comes from the South, the pressure on those birds. I think you take those two birds and put them, you know, put, and everything was equal whatever. But I think just a number of turkey hunters in the South and the pressure that they get, that they get each year, I think

that's the biggest thing. Those birds are just they've heard it all, you know what I'm saying. I think about some of the little places I hunt around town here, and any given day there's a different truck part there and that guy goes in there with his box call and his out his you know, his little hoo flute, and he does his rendition. Next to day another guy does it. And so those birds really get pretty tough,

pretty call shop, you know, pretty quick. And I think between the tremendous pressure we've got young people talk about, oh I don't hear Turkey's goble anymore. I think we've got to built that in. I think we've conditioned them. They know. Man, every time I gob will day kyote show, you know, shows up down there. I got a you know,

a pack of kyote showing up. Every time I start gobbling, less limb Kyle shows up, or there's a red neck coming down the trail, you know, what's this hoop flut dep You know, we've just got a lot of pressure on our birds, and so I think they're tougher from that standpoint. You know, a lot of guys say, oh, yeah, these southern birds are, they're tougher, smarter birds and what they've got in the Midwest or that you know, up north or whatever. And I don't think it's a smarter bird.

I think it's just the fact we've made that we've built that in, you know, we've we've put so many hunters on top of them becoming You go to a private farm around here and you know, West Tennessee, and you know, I've got some places I'll go and nobody's touched him. And you know, it's the easiest thing the world. You need to go up there and you kill one that's not been messed with. He's not hurt anybody. You know what I'm saying. It's, yeah, that's not a hard

bird to kill. He's he's an unpressured bird. He's not been messed with. And so um, that's the biggest thing. I think it's a tougher, a tougher turkey, But not because it's a Southern turkey. I think it's just because it's so many rednecks running around down here, uh, that

it's just put so much pressure on them. And I know some of my guys in the Midwest, you know, you know, they hunt around Illinois, Iowa or whatever, and I see some of these crazy hunts where there's forty or fifty birds come blowing in there, opening day and stuff, and I'm thinking, my gosh, what's the deal. But um, a lot of those guys, I see, they're they're set up in a blind and they're just if it doesn't happen. If they're blind and that food plot, they don't mess

with them. So that's a lot less pressure, you know. They they let the birds go, they slip out of their blind, you know, if they kill them or not, they whatever. There's just a lot less pressure. Um, you know, all in that turkey, in that style of hunting, and so I think it lends it's gonna lend itself to birds are less pressure. You know, they're gonna be more callable. Um, So that's the biggest thing for me. Yeah, you're you're right. There's a lot of guys like, oh, we got tough

turkeys down here in the South. It's like, no, you just you just molested them for the last you know, several years, and now they're you know, they're just call shy because of that, not because God built a tougher turkey in the South. You know, man, I'm so glad you said that because I feel, you know, you hear that in the deer world all the time, Like this state's awesome, and this state sucks. This is the hardest state.

This is the easiest state. And I just look at that and I go, but on what property, Like, on what property are you basing that on? You know? And I really think a lot of the deer hunting and the turkey hunting opportunities we have now the number one factors pressure just and it doesn't matter if you're in Pennsylvania or Louisiana or Iowa or wherever. It's like, lots of pressure makes it real hard, and no pressure makes it pretty damn easy, you know, like relatively speaking. And

it feels that way. You know. I hunt birds up here a lot in the late season, you know, between here and Wisconsin, and you know, you get a lot of those silent birds, or you get a lot of those birds that you know, you're just like they're just not really into playing the game anymore because they've been

messed with a lot. And it's it doesn't feel any different to me than one I'm hunting public land white tails, or I'm hunt elcout in Colorado and over the counter unit and you're like, man, they're just not very callable here because there's people everywhere they're still killable, like they're still it's still doable. But it's a different game than being in a place where they just don't get messed with. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You know, I hear people say Alabama, Mississippi are the toughest start he's you know, anywhere, and um and again, I think it goes back to I mean, if you look at Mississippi, I mean you got timber in some parts, a lot of it's just a big delta, open country and it's just not not a lot of place for turkey to be. But but going back to pressure, man, I mean, you know, like I said, I hear it all the time. Miss if you're toughest turkey as ever,

well you think about it. I mean what dis Mississippi got. Mississippi has got tons of hunters, they got all the you know, all the major I mean Turkey, A lot of Turkey, the Turkey heritage and culture came from Mississippi. Have massy oak, you got primos, You've got so much turkey business, you know, the whole you know, much of the industry around the Turkey world came out of Mississippi. So it lends itself to be a bunch of dudes that are passionate, religious about turkey hunting and that's life

to them. And I get it. I'm right there with it. But it's all the breeding ground for turkey owners right there. And so that's what that pressure, that pressure is, you know, there's a lot of it. Now. I will say this I did. I did do a medium was Premost a couple of years ago and we hunted a place down their plantation in Mississippi and I killed a bird and they were like, hey, this is only like three this is like the third bird, second or third bird, and

like five years have been killed off this place. And I couldn't believe how much pressure, lack of pressure. Nobody nobody really hunted. They'd like, let a guy come in. You know, one of the Premost guys had gone in the year before and killed a bird. But it was just crazy how tough those birds were tough, very tough and just and there was there weren't a lot of people hunting it, like I said, So that was a tough place. But it was also being timbered, had logging

operation going on. Some wonder okay, is it's because of the logging people are in there every day. What you know whatever. But um, I don't want guys to hear this and be like, oh, you know, you know whatever, because I have been on some places down there where we got a hend to us. Man. I mean just just Bud's kick and pressure was not a factor in that. Not hunting, not hunting pressure anyway, but buying large I'd say, man, you know you're looking. You see somebody say these birds

are just touf it's it's most time. And I you know, from what I've seen over the years, is because somebody's made those birds tough. Somebody has been in there just run round and around, called at them. They've heard it, seen it done at whatever. And those birds don't they don't put up with that. They learn, they learn where to be, you know, when to say, you know when to speak and when to uh quit that goblin, you know. So it's we put a lot of just like anything.

I mean, it's not only different deer, man, those deer. No, hey, dude, it's unting seeing here they are here they come again and they start laying low turkeys, turkeys, no when to hold them, when to fold them? Sure, dude, I think you know it kind of a piggyback off of that. I think one of the things that that happens so much in hunting is you hear that because I remember talking.

I think I was talking to Aaron or Zach from the hunting public about hunting Mississippi and Alabama turkeys, and they're like, we're killing birds, like we're finding them, we're killing them. You know, it's not you know, you hear that these like they're like unkillable, uncallable. It's like, yeah, there's there's still turkeys. And I think what happens often in hunting is we get this general consensus in our head that it's going to be this way or it's

going to be that way. You know, like you're never gonna kill like I don't know how many people have told me you'll never kill a big buck on public land in Nebraska. You know, we shoot them all in the you know, with the rifles, and I go down there and I'm like, oh my god, Like there's like this is so much better than my private stuff at home.

And so you know, you get that. And that's just like one example, but you see this so often like regionally or you know, state by a state where it's like our hunting is the toughest, you'll never do this, And it's like, well, now you've made up your mind that you're never gonna do this, Like you mean to tell me that you couldn't spend the whole season down there in Mississippi you know what you're doing and calling

a bird. Of course you could. But if you go into it and you think I'm not gonna make it happen because it's too hard, they're they're uncallable, they're never gonna gobble, they're gonna be okay, Well then it's a self fulfilling prophecy. That's right. You've talked yourself out of it. Yeah, it's it's it's it's playing, and a lot of it is. I think a lot of it's an ego trip too. You know, you hear the same thing about about guys that use it as a crutch. Right, Oh, well, you

know we're we're hunting the toughest bird. I didn't kill a bird in three years. But we're also hunting these these birds here in Alabama. They're the toughest birds on earth. So you know that's my reason excuse for not ever, you know, that's my cover up for being a sucking kirky hunter. We're hunting tough birds, you know, or same thing with you're hunting in a public lan. Well, I don't ever kill dear, but it's because I mean I'm

hunting public plan. You know. It's like, well, you can't use that, you know, you can't, you know, I mean, just tell people you're not very good. But don't blame your lack of success on the fact that you're on the public piece of property. You know, that's that's not you know whatever. So I mean, um, people use that

as a crutch. Yes, it's tougher. Yes, you're dealing with people, You're dealing with the pressure, a lot of that stuff, and don't don't use that as a crutch or just like you said, setting yourself up to have that easy out like oh no, I'm hunting you know, I'm hunting Mississippi. It's it's the hardest bird on earth. And you just get that in your mind right off the bat, like I can't you can't call these birds. And you you

tell yourself that enough times and you'll you'll talk. Yeah, I remember a couple of years ago, I don't do you know what malax lake is? He ever heard of that? So it Malax in Minnesota is sort of like the smallmouth destination. It's like one hundred and fifteen hundred twenty thousand acre bowl that's crystal clear, and it is just

a smally factory. But it has gotten really popular. They had a I think it was a bass Angler of the Year tournament or something there a couple of years ago, and a local kid that I used to fish against a lot who's just really gotten good at professional fishing named Seth Fighter won it with for three days, he had seventy seventy five pounds of smallmouth, so he had he had a five pound limit every day, which is you know, I mean when you bring in five fish

in a day that are against the best anglers in the country, you know, like it's And so anyway, it got real busy, got a lot of publicity, and it was popular before. And so you see this in the fishing world where it's like, well the malac smallies get so much pressure that you got to go, you know, finase all the time and you know, six pound floral that they can't see and throw a little hair jigs

and stuff. And I just we have a place pretty close to there, and I brought my daughter a couple of years ago, and it was pretty windy right away for my boat, and so it was kind of a kind of rough. But I'm I'm throwing swimming jigs just to throw something, and I'm catching Smally's. And I told my buddy about it, and he was like, I can't believe you were catching Smally's in there on swimming jigs. And I'm like, well, dude, there's small mouth, Like I

don't you know. It looks kind of like a mento, looks kind of like a crayfish, like you know what I mean. But you get it in your head that you're like, well, they're so it's gonna be so this way that I have to just like go into this little narrow lane and we see this, you know, you see this all the time. And the THHP guys did this really well in the Deer World, where they showed people like, you know, you think that you can't do this out there, We're gonna show up there and show

you you can. And it's almost gone so far with public land way tails where it's like now everybody thinks they're going to go out there and shoot one hundred and fifty insurance, like, well, it's not that easy, that's right. Yeah, yeah, you still gotta be good. That's what people, you know, don't realize that. THP guys they're good hunters, you know, they're they're good at what they do. You know. They they go that put the time in, they leave home for an extended periods of time. They do stuff to

make it happen. It's not gonna be you know, hopping down there, you first set, climb up a tree and boom, there's your one fitty. You know, you gotta work for you know, I talked to Aaron a few weeks ago two and said the same things. Man, you know, Mississippi is tough. You know we did, we work the butt off for a week and then you finally found them. But but they found them, you know. I mean it's

it's you gotta do your homework. You watch enough YouTube and makes it think, makes you think you can go down there and just show up, you know, park at the gate, walk down the road and boom here it is the magic happens. But you still gotta work at it, man, I mean, you gotta put your time in and um, but it is doable. The bottom line, like you said, that's what the hunting could it is showing people that, yeah,

you can do it. You know, you grab about your piece of property, your your state being the toughest whatever. They're still showing for Okay, we're strangers showing up and killing birds. I mean it happens, yeah, And I think I think one of the problems with a lot of the YouTube content and some of the other hunting content out there now is you really so you see the success on public Land and you go, that's like that's the keynote thing, right, Like that's the that's the scizzle reel.

But if it took seven days and they condensed that down to a twenty minute YouTube episode, it's really easy to kind of not think about being there for seven days getting your butt kicked when you see you know, you know, two thirds of the shows devoted to the kill sequence or you know, half of the show, and it's like there might be whole days or you didn't you didn't get exposed to that at all where nothing happened, or you know, it's a lot of walking around looking

for signs or a lot of you know, whatever, And so it's sort of a skewed view, but it's yeah, you know, it's totally do about out there. You know, turkeys, deer, public land, It's all so many good opportunities. Brody buddy, we are out of time here. Man. Uh. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. I wish you and the whole Swisher crew a whole bunch of luck this spring down there on those birds. I hope you guys stack them up. Yeah, man, I appreciate the opportunity, and

I do. I look forward to seeing those girls and what they get into each year. So hopefully this year you got the meltdowns and the shot chills, miss shot tails out of the system. I look forward to soon as you guys come up with here in a week's ahead. Well, we're gonna, we're scouting, we're gonna, we're gonna get on them. Why don't before we shut this down here, why don't you let everybody know where they can find your stuff

out there? Yeah? Man, we always got content rolling through at bow hunting dot com or work as editor for that, but also my own personal stuff is hunting roots dot com and so just opportunity there hounty roots dot com website and then the Hunting Roots podcast as well. So I'll be sure to check us out. I'd love to see him there. Yeah, and if you if you go dig deep on that Hunting Roots podcast, you can hear yours truly talking about how I almost left my nuts

up on a fence post one time. If you want to hear hear a story about that, we still talk about that and about you every time we cross a fence. Ever, if I promise you I've always never had I never forget that one. So yeah, well I haven't forgot it either, Brodie. Thank you so much, mana to appreciate you. That's it for this week, folks, be sure to tune in next week for some whitetail goodness. We won't be talking about turkeys.

We will be talking about dear. This has been the Wire to Hunt podcast, and I'm your guest host, Tony Peterson.

As always, thank you so much for listening. And if you're looking for more whitetail content, be sure to check out the mediator dot com slash wired to see a pile of new articles each week by guys like I don't know Beaumartonic and Alex Gilstrom and Mark and myself and a whole slew of white tail addicts, or you can head on over to the wire to Hunt YouTube channel to view the weekly content we put up