Ep. 637: How March Scouting Sessions Kill October Bucks with Greg Litzinger

on public land out east. All right, folks, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, which has brought to you by First Light. And you guessed it. This is definitely not Mark Kenyon's voice. It's your old backup QB. Tony. Mark is actually often Europe this week, and he's in a little town in Germany called Burghouse or bird Who's in something anyway in that little town in Germany every single year. Men. Well, I'm assuming this is only for men, but I could be totally wrong. Compete for the best

beard and the best mustache. I know Mark has been dreaming and bringing that trophy home for a long time for that mustache, so I hope he has a good showing out there today. I have a new Jersey bow hunter named Greg Litzinger. Greg is a die hard public land hunter who really understands how to deal with pressure and who lives to scout throughout the winter. In fact, that's the key to a lot of his success and

also the topic of much of this episode. Now, even if you never set foot on public land, I think you'll be able to glean some useful insight from Greg because he's as legit as they come in the white tail space. Greg, how are you doing? Man? What's happening? We gotta we have to thank our mutual friend Clint Campbell there over at Troops from the Stand podcast for making this happen. And I reached out to Clint when I was looking for people who are I'm like, who's

the most badass winner scouter you know? And he listed about twenty people and then he said, or you could just call Greg. Yeah, Clints, Uh, we've become really good friends. Charity's last you know, I don't think. I was one of his first few guests on his podcast and he was just getting started and we're just like, yeah, he lives like an hour and a half for me. We just formed a you know, a good friendship, you know, just good, not just a hunting friendships, just a friendship

all around. You know, he's a he's a solid dude. Dude. I get jealous of Clint. He's gonna hear this, but that he can put truck cameras out and find monsters. And I'm like, dude, like you're finding all these megas. It's like, how do you find these jumbos? He was like, Oh, it's the camera. I thought it'd be a good spot and it's like this giant deer and I'm like, I'll throw out twenty cameras and get like maybe one Pope season. I'm like, I don't know how you do it, man Like.

So I was like, once he kind of figures that out, the his his kill mode, I guess gets in killed mode. There's deer in trouble man Like, he's got the stuff. He just needs to, you know, tweak a few things and he's going to be a world beater. Yeah, he's he's always on good deer out there in Pennsylvania. Yeah. You I don't know if people who are listening to this can tell, but you don't sound like a typical

wired to hunt guest. You sound like you live in a different place where you where are you at right now? South Jersey? Yeah, And that's really why not North Jersey? South Jersey. So for somebody who lives in Minnesota and doesn't know the difference, what's the difference? Why why do you specify that? Because there's in Jersey's like three it's like north, Central and South. You know, in South Jersey

were relatively flat. We got Salt Marsh's, pine barrens, a lot of agg you know, centrals, more farm rolling hills. North you get into the mountains and a little more developed developed areas, I guess, if you will, a lot of traffic and PA, like through eighty runs through there, so you get PA, New York, New Jersey, all kind of meat up there. So there's a there's an influx of different, different kinds of people. I guess, not in a bad way. But it's different than South Jersey, you

know what. I have to confess something. So I live in the suburbs of the Twin Cities, and people hear that and all of the time they're like, oh, that's the worst you live in, like where the riots were and everything. I'm like, no, Like do you understand how big the cities are? You know, like I'm not like in downtown Minneapolis and you know, I've killed poping young Bucks on public land ten minutes from my house. Like

it's not like I'm in city city. But when I hear somebody say they're from Jersey, I don't think of anything other than a city, Like I don't. I don't think because my buddy Tim Kent hunts out there too, and he's always describing it, and like I have this bias. I've never been there, and no, you know what I mean.

It's like when I had one of my old podcasts, I had a few guests on from the UK, and you know, nothing sounds dumber than some random Midwestern dude talking about you know, like the UK, like like he understands what it is. I'm like, I don't even really know, Like I don't even know if I can find this

on a map. And then when I hear you talk about Jersey, I'm like, and you were, you know, we were talking on the phone the other day and You're like, yeah, you know, I hunt in public land out here, and I'm like, I have such a skewed view of where you live. And it makes me feel like an asshole because people do that to me all the time. Yeah, Well,

Jersey it's a it's a pretty cool state. It's a very it's a tough state to live in, you know, as as you know, not to be political, but it's it's a Democrat run state, and there's some laws that it's just strange to me, a foreign to me, but this is where I live. But it's a state that the fishing game to do a good job of setting land aside. When I got into hunting and would date myself here with this, it's thirty sybe thirty one years ago.

It's not much public land in South Jersey. There's like the bigger like pine barrens, but the pencilia grew up everybody hundred one piece basically Lee High or Wingate. It was like armaccore engineer type terrain you know, and read deer just big read there, big bucks. Those spots that you're talking about a couple hundred acres, there'd be I mean, there'd be Lee High Road. You know, people that hopefully

from listeners here will know that road. But there'd be fifteen trusting Lee High Road and it's only maybe a mile long. There'd be fifteen people hunting that and it's like everybody hunted there. It was just where they're in place, you can hunt. And as the years went on, they implemented the ant restrictions some zones, and the states started buying up some old farms. Farmers were, you know, so

to the state. So the state bought a lot of especially in Cell Jersey, a lot of farms, a lot of big farms, and they started like piecing some things together, and you know, on a short amount of time, it seemed like the state land grew really quickly. And it was nice for us public land guys, because you know, it gave us a little room to spread out. And North Jersey, they said, you got the morthern state forests. There's Jenny Jump, there's Stoked State Forest, massive blocks of

unbroken timber, I mean huge for a small state. You know, we're the Garden state. So people think New Jersey, they don't think Guarden State. But there's a lot of across, a lot of farms north central End Sound, so you can hunt any type of terrain you want. New Jersey. We have the mountains, we have unbroken you know, the pine barrens, unbroken timber, just sandy soil, big rat bucks, tiny bodies. You know, we got farm deer. I mean

we have salt marsh. You know, you can learn to hunt deer and any type of terrain that a deer exists across the country. It's a it's a good state to learn. So you said you did you start hunting deer on public? Yeah, I've first, you know, always hunt the public. My dad, you know, we he was a shift worker or two punts. Know, he's struggled, family six. So it's not like we had money to splurge on

leases if or even like permission. We'd get a few pieces here and there, but basically just wherever we can get in. You know, canoe mostly could do. We did a lot of canoe on um. But yeah, it's a public climber. Being a used to the term mobile hunter. You know, my first climber climber tree stand was a Baker like my dad's baker that death trap. Yeah, so I went with you know, I had the Baker tree

stand and it was so heavy. I was tiny. When I got in a hunting it was hard for me to climb up more than ten feet, like I was exhausted. And then the log I had a light hang on with scrown steps, which we weren't allowed to use, but my dad we did anyway because that's what everybody did. And loggy body climbers, um lone Wolf climber, lone Wolf, hang on and then in the saddles, and that's been you know, I've been mobile since day one. You know,

I have the exact same kind of origination story. I didn't. I didn't hunt solely public land when I first started, but we hunted a lot of it, and I was mobile just because we didn't. We had one stand like you know, it was you put it up, you took it down, you know. And I remember, you know, when climbers came out, it was like, oh my god, this is going to be the answer to all our problems. And then you take them out, and you know, those

early ones were horrible, but the best we had. So you're like, I'm gonna figure out how to make it worse. And the worn and sweat plywood tree stand had like the rubber strap in order of the APIs with the chain wrapped the rubber like the motorcycle chain. Yeah. Lord, people don't know how good that. People just get into Honeynail had. It's a really good time to be a hunter.

Oh my god, I mean I think you know, when I started out, I had I think it was I think it was Amaker was the company, and it was you know, crazy heavy steel stand chain like you said, but you know it's it's what we had. And then my dad would make stands out of wood, but he would make like a a platform that would attach with

a chain. So they were like forty seven pounds and they were built like this is really hard to describe, but they were built like with a almost a chamber below them, so the supports in the platform and everything would form like three quarters of a box almost, yeah, And so you'd knock that top of that stand and it would just echo through the bottom of there, and it's just like these they were such pieces of shit.

But it's like, you know, if we had spots where we wanted to hang a stand like on a field edge or something and just leave it, like that's what we used. And man, you're right, like the way that we can hunt now in the access I mean, even the clothing we have access now to its like, yeah, I know we sound old, but man hunters today the advantages are so different, you know, but it seems like

it's sort of leveled off with pressure. Sure, you know, like it's if you're if you're not onto something exclusive, it seems like even though we have really you know, banging equipment now and a lot of advantage that way, it's like, man, if you're not on something that you're paying to hunt you, the whole thing levels off quite a bit just because you have a lot more pressure out there. We agreed, it's uh I mean New Jersey, it's it's one of the most populated states in the region.

It's not like you can I mean I deal with people either from eyeshine, you know, ladder stands, baitings, legal, crossbowings legal like the last ten years and like now

with technology, sell cameras and all this stuff. It's I think, Hay call it the game, but it is completely changed, m changed, dear, you know, and it makes it finding a big buck a little more difficult because now everybody has I've seen more cell cameras this year than uh I care to even like imagine, like everybody's running cell cameras and people that would never hunt, you know, or going into the wood because we're getting the picture of you know, a picture of a deer most some you know,

like I get pictures of people and it's like wow, Like Dud's going in at three pm. It gets dark at five thirty. I'm like, man, this isn't like the Big West. Like it's like but they say it on YouTube, but they see it on TV, you know, like it's a It makes being on Big Deer on a regular basis very difficult. If you're not in it, like like really in it. New Jersey will beat you up and like you gotta want it, like in a different way

than most people. Do you know, you might you might go months without saying a good deal, like you know, or you could be on them, you know from from day one? Do you do you have pretty uh like pretty liberal harvest out there, because I mean when you talk about that and being able to being able to bait public, private and you know, cross bowl legalization all that stuff. Is it is it just a matter of

you know, your state game agency go. You know, there's only so many places people are even allowed to hunt in this state and so they won't kill dead. Yeah, yeah, we can kill five bucks from September to January. Have you ever did a year where you killed five three is the most I've gotten. And it was like where you have seasons where you can't do anything wrong. Like you was walking out and was like, oh there's a buck boom. Like that year I killed three three of

my bucks off in the ground. Uh you know the one I killed him. I didn't find him, you know, until after a fact, but you know he was he was dead. But uh yeah, So you can kill a lot of bucks if you want. Um, it makes in some areas. You know. It's not to knock anybody, you know, um, But if you have a good like two or three years ago, we had a lot of I had a lot of great young deer, a lot on camera. I've seen him. I was like, man, it's gonna be a

banger year. And then we had an extreme cold front during like dode musload or in January, and next year it was like a ghost town. Like all these dear got smoked, you know, because these tier never experienced cold like that. And there's gonna be a poll of corn or a cut cornfield at least hear a pond out there to eat and two hundred yard musload or you know, it's just you're just picking them off. Yeah, you know, and that's gun clubs. You know, all that stuff. Gun

clubs come through. You got a lot of nice young beer. Like said, not not to say anything bad about that, as hunting is hunting, you know, but if the dude gets excited for a four pointer, you know, or a six pointer, hey have at it. Man. But you have ten people, twenty people doing that, well you really put a hurting on the next ear hurt, you know. I guess anyway you would deal with it would be the extreme weather, the snowfall. You know, extreme snowfall, you get

to winter kill. Well, we have good you know, shotgun kills. It's like the same thing. Like some spots it's like there's nothing here, you know, and it's like you gotta wait two or three years. It gets you know, some age back in that area. Yeah, and sometimes it never comes back, depending on the pressure. When when they say I always think, you know, when this state game agencies like you know what, how about a five buck limit, that's like just that's like saying, how about just shoot

unlimited bucks? Yeah, I mean because and very few people are going to fill that limit, but they're they're not going to stop. Yes, it's and that's too with like bo and gone like Jersey. I mean they'll they make you buy a regular fall bow and then the end of October you have to buy a permit bow, which is another twenty eight dollars and twenty eight dollars because you gotta buy a permit and then you gotta buy a buck tag and then a permit for the zone

you're hunting. So have you hunt like I hunt three zones? Well, for permit bow, it will cost me one hundred bucks to hunt, plus the twenty eight dollars to original license. And then if I want a gun hunt, well there's another thirty bucks. And I want to win a bow hunt, there's another thirty bucks. A Jersey William to death. Yeah, they keep you coming back. Have you seen you kind of alluded to just a high amount of pressure the whole your whole life hunting out there? Have you seen

an uptick in like the last five years. Are you seeing more people out there? I'm seeing more people by boat for sure. Um, a lot of you know, with YouTube and that this generation of hunting, I guess hunters they say it, they do it so crossbows legal. So we get a lot of gun hunters that are are bow hunting now with the crossbow, and a lot of gun hunters come in by boat. Well now that I'll come in by with the crossbow. So a lot of my spots that were good fall are not so good anymore.

Some of the swamps were just it's just not there. It's and it's it's not worth it to wake up at two to catch a tie to go hunt somewhere or paddle you know, you know far and Walter's waist deep swamp for a mediocre buck if you will. You know, it's and like you said, it's hit or miss. Like some years it's amazing. Other years she's like out here for like five days, Megan, I ain't seen a theater. I ain't heard them. I smell them like no splashing in the water, you know, And it's like, oh, but

that's just that's the way it goes. I guess anywhere do you feel like? So I'm assuming when you say that that you used to have used to do some water access and it worked out pretty well for you.

And now because I feel the same way, like there used to be some tricks like that you could get away from people, and it feels like there's no secrets left and I know like if you if you're listening to this and you hunt out west and you el cont or whatever and over the counter unit, it's the same deal, Like, yeah, there's not You're not going to outwork the competition, like you just there's no there's no hide, you know, honey hidie holes. I guess if you will anymore.

Like the everybody's got an aerial map whatever software using You've got up to date imaging of as it's happening, you know. So it's like it's hard to find, you know, those spots that were before you found them by accident, Like, oh, what's this? You know when you twenty years ago you find the funnel all this buck side, you know what it is? You honey, you start killing some deer, seeing some deer, and now you look at it, you're like, oh, it's a funnel because you got this, but when you're

in it, you don't know what's there. It's like all those bucks sides are hunting. You're killing now from air and filter are like, oh, you know, it's like hunting the mountainsick saddle. So you go to any mountains terrain saddles each seem to pick out. You go to almost every saddle human side, and deer will avoid them, even though it's a good bottle neck go the will a pinch point if you will, dear, just avoid them u during honey hours. So bottlenecks around here in farm country

and swamp same way. And these deer are just they're really you know, they're surviving and they're they're thriving in some areas. Man, I think and listen. I love on X, I love the tools that we have, but man, that the way that that sort of leveled things off for people is incredible. I mean you just think about you know, we're right in the heart of winters outing right now, and this is the time when you get in and try to find rubs and figure some of that stuff out.

And you know you used to just like stumble across a little island in the swamp or something, you know, and you're like, oh, man, like this is freaking money. And now anyone, like almost every hundred eld there can pull up their phone and find that and you know

whether they'll do the work to get in there. But even if only a couple of people do, or you know, like you said, you know, if you wait for that time to roll in and you go in, you know, you think, man, like, not very many people are going to go buy a thousand dollars fifteen hundred dollars kayak just for that, Like no tons of people do that. Yeah,

that shit's everywhere now. And it's like i I've last year and even this year, like hunting, I've I've kind of put my phone in my pocket and I've gotten away from like trying to find precise pinpoint spots, and I've let just the deer sign and the thrain just go very old school, you know, and I find something, I'll just mark it real quick, you know, and then it kind of makes it fun again, less like a less monotonous. You know. I'm just kind of like I'm

almost like still hunting. I'm just falling the sign and I'm I'm finding areas, especially like some of the big woods I'm hunting by here by my house. You know, I'm finding areas that's got zero human pressure because you look at the map, they're like there's nothing that's making that. You know, hunters go, oh what's this? Do you know that this is a spot where people don't go, So they're like, oh, party over here, and sometimes it's it might even be a hundred yards off a cart root

or fifty yards off the car room. Everybody's just you know, now with the e bikes too, we gotta deal with the e bikes. They just blow right on pass. And these bucks are just hanging out watching all these people, you know, And I guess they've probably always always done that, but I find that more and more, and there's overlooked spots and random spot people just wall pasted. Yeah, dude, I find that too. Where you know, if I'm scouting bluffy country or river bottom country with like limited cover

or real terrain, that's easy to read. It's like everybody is at the same level. But if you get into some of that mono habitat, like big wood stuff where you know, an elevation change of twenty feets a big one. Yeah, Then when you get into that stuff and everything from overhead kind of looks the same, then you start realizing like the subtlety of deer movement and sign and I

think I'm with you right there too. One, you know, like especially right now, when you're winner scouting, I'll pick out spots on on X or whatever, and they're like, I'm going to go look at that. But the interesting stuff I find most of the time is between that and something else, just like following a whim. Yeah, total total. It's not random because you're you know, you're using your instincts that we've you hold over the years. But it's those spots that I find. My biggest Bucks buck sign

like and the big ones by my house. Three years ago, I stom upon like hammer signpost rob It's like thirty of in this one little block. So I put a bunch of cameras out there and it's like a big buckle roll through there. But he would never rub on a rub. There's always the little guys big Bucks new it was just you know, these little guys would tear up the rubs like you have big old seedars and everything look real tall, you know, like nice dear. But

the bigger ulder box would never rub. Some of the bigger Bucks don't scrape. They just know that this is a hot spot for some reason. I still can't figure out why all these rubs there, because there's no terrain, there's no nothing, there's no edge. It's just a spot. I think people don't go and it's probably been that

way for years. Because someboy's rubs are old and it's a smack dab in the middle of like nothingness, and it's like it was by pure accident I found them, like I remember it, like because it's like the we had a little bit of snow and so you can kind of see and that's just seen this rub just like like a beak and way out there. I was like, and I love rubs, big rubs, you know, and I've seen that. I was like, I know what that is.

And I've been in that piece of woods for least fifteen twenty years, and I'm like, you market, you know, it's like I don't even whether it is that, like it's there's no nothing, but all the bucks come through there. It's just a weird, strange place. But it's so hard to get to unless I can like, you know, air drop from a parachute, you know, like you have to cross so many deer trails and so much laurel and so much brier swamp to get to it, Like you

kind of only get worn through sits. So if it ain't there, it's like you wait for that mid November and it's like nothing but the sign and the sum of the trail kind of pictures like that's a spot to be. It might take me three or four years kill a deer there, but that's where I'll be. Yeah, dude, I think sometimes because I think we look at a concentration or rubs like that like that. To me, that's my favorite thing. Like if I find lots of rubs in a really tight area, I'm super interested in that.

And I think we look at it a lot of times and we sell this like, Okay, that's a staging area because they bed it over here and they feed over there, or you know, there's like some dear explanation for it. But I think a lot of times, like you're talking about, it's because people aren't there, and so you have a whole bunch of bucks who know that's

one spot. And so I don't know if that's correlated, you know, you bump into a bunch of strangers, if that's correlated to making more sign in that spot, just

because there's so much like deer scent there. But it makes me wonder because when you see, I've got a buddy who owns some land in southwestern Wisconsin runs cameras on there all year and he has like Brassica plot for a late season hunk, you know, and you get these bucks that you've never seen, like they weren't there off fall or summer, and all of a sudden, when you know the weather really sucks and they need that food source, you put all these deer who don't really

know each other together and then you're getting you know, like images like over and over a bucks fighting and

testing each other out. And I'm like, I wonder if on public land during the season, there's just places where the bucks are like holy shit, like I gotta get somewhere where people aren't and all the bucks, maybe not all of them, but a lot of them figure it out, and they're just more prone to being a little more aggressive, have been making sign and just like just because they're all there together, I've I firmly believe that, you know, I had a conversation with a guy the Harrisbrook Show

about ropes because he's like, I found all these robes and I was like, you know, explaining my thoughts and robes, and we kind of came to the same conclusion. You know, it's just an area that a lot of pressure from all around, and the pressures come from the out and it's pushing the deer into the center, and most people aren't going to put that work to get in there, especially like in October and November, because it's still a lot of you know, there's a lot of high stemcounts

stuff still happening. And often remember it's you can't see very far, you know, limited visibility, but fear you know, or they use all their senses. They have a lot better senses than we do, so they might not see well, but they can smell and hear, you know. So I just I firmly believe that's that's what's happening there. When you talk about some of the stuff that you scout and where you hunt, it reminds me so much of some of the stuff that I hunt, like northern Wisconsin.

But it also reminds me when you when you think about a little area you're talking about like that where you you know, maybe you go in and winter scout it now and you're like, man, at some point in the fall, this is where you kill that one thirty because of like you know, the high stem count like you're talking about, and just just like the location of it, then you go do a hunt like in Iowa that

we talked about that. You said you never wanted to do, and you're like, I want to find that because my instincts tell me find that spot and it doesn't exist, and it doesn't freaking matter, Like you don't. You're you're looking for something you don't even need because it's it's like the only way to get it done in some places, and totally I wouldn't say irrelevant, but not nearly as important in a place with a you know, a high amount of deer and maybe not the most pressure out

there in a lot of like good quality deer. And it's so it's like, it's weird how different this becomes in the different places that you can hunt. And there's parts like I've hunted some private farms in Jersey and like there's a couple of guys into the hunt Central Jersey and nake kill I mean hammer deer, but they have five six hund acres. But the pressure, you know, a couple forms a hunted deer behave a lot better

than than the public. I wouldn't say it's Midwestern like, but the deer come out and fields they daylight at four o'clock in the afternoon. You're like, because it's like, I'm not used to this. It's like hunting field edges and hedgerows. I'm like, it's farm to me because I don't do it. So I sat and field edges or hedgerows and I feel naked because I'm like, what am

I doing out here? There's nothing going to happen. And then four o'clock just pile out in the field and You're like, like this really happens, Like it's you know, very tv issh if you will. And you know, the pressure area gets extreme pressure most of you know, and you can find some little pockets here and here with no pressure. But these dear have been pressured your whole life, so it don't really take much, you know, from them

deer to alter into survival mode, you know. And we have that early season in September, you know, a second week, but you have to shoot a dough where you shoot a buck, which is just earn a buck, they call it. Like I've passed so many good deer, Like opening morning, like here comes a hammer and I'm like I was just there's a group of dose here all week long. Opening morning, here comes to hammer. I'm like, hey, all right, I've never seen you before. But you know, it's like

a very frustrating time in September. But a lot of people are running cameras, a lot of people are baiting, running minerals say they're pressure and deer even for the season starts, you know. And I've noticed that change in the last ten years, I'll say last five years, it's gotten extremely difficult to get on good bucks, you know without really you'll blowing them out, you know, because prime example last year in Delaware, pretty much high pressure area.

These bucks were coming out into the field, the bean field, this little pocket and I had a camera there all summer and then we decided to go down and hunt it. And I pulled a camera like after the third day because we've seen some trucks there, so we didn't hunt it. A bunch of boot tracks. A guy walked for like three days for a season. A hunter walked the edge of the field with his family, you know, walked the beans, the bucks, big old the seven pounter came in, smelled

it going. Now like so there's a whole week, like he was there like for hours on end. Like I got hundreds and hundreds of pictures here in a short time, like this was this cool area. He smelled one human, it was out, and all the other small bucks skill came out, but like the two mature ones, we're like, nope, we're out. So it just took one encounter with the human and farmers walked that field edge all the time,

you know, like human scents not foreign to him. But it took a guy that was a little more human scent, probably died in the woods a little bit, and that buck was like, ah, deuces, and it was like I've never seen him. We hunted down it, We hunted him pretty hard, and he just was never be founding it. Didn't. You know, my buddy was hunting there a few times.

I think so that I wish every hunter could learn that lesson quick because man, there are situations where you can bump them around and they're not that sensitive to it. But when you're dealing with deer that are, it's an eye opener. I had that happened to me. I must have been about three years ago in Minnesota on a private farm that I have, where it's like you might kill a good one opening night on a field, like you just might because they're they're not onto it yet.

And I had I had a spot. The year before, I killed a really good one opening night, and so I hung a camera there the next year, still elf alfa, like may you know maybe right? Yeah, And I had quite a few good ones coming out using it, like fighting in the field right by the stand, Like I was like, this is going to happen again, you know, And I should know better because I never do. Lightning never strikes twice for me. Like if I kill a buck here, I might as well write that spot off

forever because it's over. But I had that camera on video mode and went out there and say it wasn't a cell camera. I went out there and sat opening nights a few doughs. It was just dead. So I checked the camera. And the day before the season, I had a different hunter walk in there walking his dog blasting Motley crue like you hear the whole thing, you know, and walked in there onto the trail of those bucks,

come out and hung a camera on it. And he even had his daughter with him, and his daughter said, whose camera is that? Like I heard the whole exchange and just shut it down. I mean they were just like, we're not using this anymore, and I just wish, like I wish you could know, like that's that impact is like it's not little, like that can be a really

bad deal, and so you think about it. We never look at that for ourselves, like it's always this dipshit that walks in there that you're like, oh, I hate that guy because he blew my dear out. We never think it were the dipshit, but we are all the time. And the more that you you hunt those kind of deer, the more you learn, and like your presence is is big. Well, I remember, you know, we grew up, they said a

long time ago. But reading articles from Miles Keller, like his thought process like groundset, you know, and all that stuff like groundset is so important to understand. How you're set is what you're going to set, you're gonna leave like tall grass, short grass, do dowey grass. And if you if a big buck cut your track, you know, and it's fresh with a new pressure area. They know of a two hour track versus ceo a two day old track, but they know humans in here and you're

they're usually not here. They're going to insurvival mode for most part most bucks, you know, there might be a few outliers at just like they're so crafty they don't really bother them. But I think any bucks that shot at any any kind of one hundred stops about that buck knows like, well, I know what that is, you know. So I was like those moments you're just educating news dear.

You're going to check your camera, you know, or hunting the wrong winds, your groundset, not paying attention to your intron exit it Really you're helping the deer and you're hurting yourself. Do you find you know, being in a state New Jersey, it's a little bit weird because a lot of states allow baiting on private but not public. But it's wide open there. Do you see like with your trail cameras you go pop a trail camera on a tree, do you see like do you get negative

reactions on that? Because I know where I hunt in Wisconsin, they can bait and man if I put a camera out and those those deer blow up on it like they are not tolerant of it. Yeah, they some of the higher end models. Um Like, I don't buy high end modeling more because I get a lot stolen, so I buy cheaper ones and they're noisy. There's something going on, there's an audible click, you know, you can barely hear it, you know, or like the red anything any camera I

got that's red than deer onto it. They they're spooky. They're a cage especial video that it stays red long time you see it, especially like older dose. Older dos are the worst. I mean, they get up to it and they smell it, and you know, so I try to set my cameras up high, and I do. I do my best to wear rubber gloves and rubber boots when checking cameras because I know, like you're especially you

when it's hot out, you touch your face. I know it's not going to help much, but it does help some, you know, to get your set up a little bit higher, and not to be touchy grabby with the bark, you know, especially does mature does Jersey or I think they're harder to hunt than a mature buck because you have her plus her whole, you know, thirty other deer sheep bread and list five years with her, you know, if she's onto something, all the rest is on something. Yeah, yeah, nobody,

We've We've done episodes on this. I've written about this. Nobody talks about that, how how a game does are? Thank you? And when you talked about earn a buck there I you know, when I first started hunting Wisconsin, some parts had earned a buck. And man, you want to be reminded that you're not the greatest deer hunter in the world. Have to shoot a dough before you

can kill a buck. That can That can give you like anxiety attacks because it's when all of a sudden, when you're not just like, oh, at any given point in the season, if a doe walks by, a might shooter, when you're like, I have to target one and I have to make it happen. That's a different deal. It's a I shot this old dough. I had her aged out. She was eight and a half and I hunted her. She had short, little stubby legs, you know, I knew it was her, but she was a made shark, you know.

And there was this old wooden stand. Every time like falling down. Every time she went by this stand, she would literally rustle her feet in the leaves to get that, you know, because I'm sure when she was a falling you know, yearling, her mom showed her or a hunter wasn't there, so she would literally stare at the stand it's fallen down in a tree. But she knew that was dangerous. So anything that was like horizontal, up in the up in the air, she was not having it.

And whenever I hunted, she would pick me out. I don't care if I was, you know, ten feet on the ground or twenty. She came in that wood lot, she would just like look around and she would pegged me every time. I finally killed her in winter Bow for a first day of winter Bow a few years ago, and she came in blowing. The win was good. She came in the wood lot blowing. I don't know why, but she was on edge. She came in. I had

a good ground, like everything was perfect. She was on edge, like she just knew als in that wood lot, and she got all way up to my tree, you know, like came right out to the base of their tree.

And I'm like, she knows exactly where I'm at, you know, I bounced all around, But she got in that wood lot and I don't know if she see me like skylighted, you know, in the dark or whatever, but she came rinking and based their tree in the dark, and then kind of pulled out and right at first light, I just let her have it, you know, and it was like the greatest accomplishment as far as like winter Bow hunt or even you know. She was a big dough old dough like teeth, like she had a big infection

in her face. She probably would have died. You know, she had like three babies in her But she was probably the toughest eater I've ever hunted. And I specifically targeted her because she beat my ass so many times. I was like, I gotta kill you at a sheer principle, like I can't go out like this. Well, I mean, think about an eight and a half year old deer.

That's like the equivalent of a ninety year old person who's never left their town, right, Like they live in a town of eight thousand people and they've never left it their entire life. Like they know everything, you know what I mean? That deer has been out there every day for eight and a half years, Like you're not you know, you hang a new stand, you hang a new camera, and she walks by, She's going to be

aware of that. Yeah, yeah, she was. Those kg dos are you know, and they blow up a lot of my good spots, especially like during the run, like they have a they have a better sense than I think the Bucks, you know, because Bucks are loved you'll come November. They're just you know, love struck zombie walking paying attention

half the time. But those does always are always on alert. Yeah, I think that's one of the sort of unspoken real challenges of being a public land hunter primarily is you know, if you if you get on really badass private land, A lot of those does get a lot of passes, like they you know, just like the Bucks do, right, But you get on public land and those deer, even if they're coming into a bait pil and they weren't going to get shot by this guy, the next bait pile,

somebody's going to shoot at them, and they spend their whole life on a hit list or everybody's hit list, and that cumulative pressure is real and you you have to beat them if you're going to get a buck. And it's not it's like we kind of it's sort of like a throwaway thing we don't really give enough credit to. But it's a big problem for a lot of people. Yeah, it's a I could don't open a night this year, and I was like, man, this is a year. And I didn't see until like in of October,

like September. I was just getting just gut punched by the deer. Like I wasn't seeing no bucks, Like I got a buck tag for the first time in years, and nope, it was like a ghost out. Man. I was like, and I really wasn't even seeing the doze and I was like, I just wanted to shoot something. It was a it was a very difficult season and all that scouting I did, like the year prior, the last couple of years, and somebody spots. It was like I never even scouted. Simon was not there, the robs

weren't there, the deer weren't there. And I'm kind of curious now because I saw have cameras out that I sat in like September and somebody spots, like I just want to go see if it turned my holl on, you know, Like our season just started thirty first January, so I'm just starting to start start my scouting stuff now, so I'm kind of curious see whether this deer went and maybe it's food oaks, different crops, it could be

pressure bait piles. I need to figure it out because like I worked on my entry and exits, I did all this everything that you're supposed to do, and it was like, there's not here, and you feel kind of defeated because you like, this is the year everything's going to happen, and like nothing. So it's like I like that because it's like I got my butt kicked, and I love that. I love having that like front of my face every time I go out, come out, I'm not seeing at the air and I'm like, all right,

all right, what is your plan then? Though, So you come off a season because I think there's a really good lesson there and a lot of people I'm talking to they're like, man, I got my ass kicked last year, Like I you know, just it just happens. But so you've had cameras out there soaking, so you'll get a pretty good glimpse into what was happening through those. It's not going to answer all your questions. What's your like winter scouting strategy to go, Okay next year? This isn't

happening to me. I'm gonna be on them more. What are you what are you looking at? I'm looking for because I said the rub lines, and you know, those rubbing areas of staging errors weren't there, so they got to be somewhere else, you know, and I need to figure out like where they went. And I do believe it's going to be it's it's likely food or pressure.

I gotta figure out maybe somebody's coming in from private because some of the spots it's like you got one trawl head the anybody to get to somebody spots like you gotta park here, there's no other way around it. So maybe somebody's coming in by four wheeler, you know, e bikes. Like I need to figure out what change from these last couple of years. So for me, it's trying to go back to the drawing board and having like a clean slate, like all right, there's nothing here.

I have grid services. During hunting season, I didn't find anything. So now I'm gonna go here and just like quadrant scout it, you know, because I got kids, wife, so I have a little four hour blocks on the weekend, so I like to just I'm gonna scout this five piece I my blank get up into four blocks, you know, and then for you know, Saturday, Sunday two weeks in

a row. I'm gonna scout these, you know, up and down, up and down, zig zag them and really hopefully either write that place off or see what I need to see. And usually it said it's pressure and food. Could be somebody with a ladder stand and they could be bait and all summer you know, who knows. I have to go find out why it happened. When when you break a property up like that and you talk about winner scouting it, you know, we talk all the time about

looking for rubs. You know, if you don't have any snow, you can look for last season scrapes, trails, whatever the usual. But it sounds like you're looking for a lot of human signed too, and that's like for me, I know, that's like half the battle on public. I'm like, where are the stands? Where are the piles of garbage? Like? Where are the tack trails? Is that what you're looking

for too? Yes, exactly. I'll go out at night too, Like I'll get out of Udeo and it's super early, when it's still dark out and look for eyeshine because I know, you know you can go to you know, see eyeshine. Every eyeshine I see, I go up and look at it. If it's an old tat rusty tag, if it's the new triangle shape one or whatever square was. And I know in certain areas there's never been eyeshine. I'm like, well that's new. I need to see where that's going, you know, and like going in the daytime,

you don't know that. So I'll go in a night, late night, early morning, two am if I can't sleep. I was going to look for eyeshine, you know, near the trailhead and stuff like that. I try to do things that most people won't because we talked about earlier there is no secrets out there, you know. So it's like there is no secret you know, trailheads or canoe launches, you know, or anything. Now there's ebikes, you know, canoes, kayaks.

So I just trying to go where people aren't because if you're seeing people, you're not seeing big bucks, you know, so you avoid the people. I find you'll start to see more deer sign And to break it down a little bit further, is rub size. If I'm finding a bunch of saplings rubs all over place, you know, like little rubs, you know, it's a little dinker. If there's a bunch of them. There's probably a doge group with you know. Uh, it's her first year, you know, so

she might be trailed around. So I'm looking for bigger, dear sign, taller rubs away from people, away from human sign, do you So you don't give a whole lot of like credence to small rubs on average, now, um, but sometimes they will if it's a rub line, yes, But if it's like just you know, oaks, you see where there's like rubs and scrapes all over the place, usually as young deer doing that, you know, I'm looking for that isolated big old scrapes or I just need one

big hammer rub to get me excited, you know, like I see one good tall room and by hammer I mean not necessarily diameter, but height. You know, I want to I want to see time marks up in my chest that all right, there's a wider deer here, or deer with longer times, you know, because if I'm seeing rubs that are like a foot off the ground and you know I'm I doesn't necessarily get me excited. Yeah, unless it's a trail like a rub line, like I'll

follow them. But I love rub lines because you can find some hidden gems, you know, especially big woods, you find it a long time, like it's hard to follow rub line. If you can mark it now on your you're whatever software using, you know, and you can kind of see how this year moving through different types of terrain. You know, you go back to Google Earth and you look at the time of year, like, oh, he's following this.

You know, this this soft edge in the mature hardwoods there you don't necessarily see unless you were actually walking that scene rub line that the deer was. Yep. I mean, I think that's one of the you know, I've talked about this a lot, like I'm not a big bed guy, Like, I mean, I like them whatever, but I don't I don't build a strategy around finding individual beds very often. But man, my favorite winter scouting is in big woods stuff.

And if I find that like knob or something where there's a there's like a big buck bed on there, it's like you're gonna stand there and spend three sixteen You're gonna see a rub line going down here to the creek bottom and a rub line go and it's like he's it's like you're talking about with those eyeshines somebody leaves tack trail out there, It's like, Okay, I know exactly where you started, exactly where you ended when you walk into an out of the woods when you stand,

when you find those situations and you can read that rub line, You're like that information so valuable. Yeah. And I'm primarily a bed guy, especially like October. Like I have a lot of success hunting a singular bed, but it's always the nine percent of time it's the rubs that lead me to that bed. And He's like, hold on a second. So when your winner scouting, you'll find rub concentrations and you'll tie that into finding a bed

to hunt in October. Yeah, if I find like a rub line, like you know, you want to see you kind of where like may pull up on a map, like where's it going? Like maybe there's just thick it over there, you know. I find a lot of beds, believe or not, by accident by following deer trails like a walter. I'm like, man, there's ruling nothing here. You look down understanding a giant, well worn bed right end

up here. I don't know how I got there, but you're just all the train and the you know, the vegetation, and it's like, oh, look there's a buck bed, you know, and then you sit there look around like you said, oh, there's a rub or you know, there's you know, some bucks signed over there or a big track or something. So I rubs and beds. I'm not a big food guy. Um,

you know, I don't have myself hunting specific food. I'm trying to get good at deciphering food and different types of bark, but my brain canney handle so much information. You know. Do you think that partially your strategy, you know, of of paying attention to rubs big time and then hunting beds is just built around the fact that you're you're in a state where man, when everybody can bait a food pattern isn't the same thing. You're not. You're not dealing with us the same kind of food situation

that you would be in a state without bait. Yeah, it's the first week or two, you might get some beans bucks coming out their beans, But I'm never rarely on the field. It's like it's probably a hundred yards.

It's probably the closest I'll get to a field edge the first two weeks, and even that's a that's a tough sell sometimes, you know, um, but yeah, the food being food everywhere prevalent, and so I kind of just adapted to like the bed hunting because a big buck he'll get up out of his bed and he won't move very far, like I've seen, like I've I've set up on beds. I've watched the bucket up middle around in his bed, take a few steps, and you're talking

forty there's forty five minutes of light left. He don't move, he doesn't move, so dark. And then it's like, now I'm stuck in this tree because there's like one troll out of this like he's come by direction, and I'm like, oh, this is great. I'm gonna be here getting bit up by bugs, you know, because it's like it's hot, you know, and it's like and you're losing that game, you know if you will, because he's gonna smell you. You're in you're in his comfort zone. Well, that spot's going, So

I have no problem going to the next. Like I do a lot of scouting. I have a lot of spots, you know, so it's like one spot blows out, I'm

like he's out. I'll go somewhere else is that a function of being a public land hunter, because I know, I mean, my whole thing about winner scouting is just to give myself options because I know that even if I'm perfectly careful on a little setup that I really like, it's maybe two sits and it's over, and so often even before I get in there, it's done for whatever reason. It doesn't matter what reason, it's gone. And it's like you can't get married to any one thing because it's

so fleeting. Yes, it's a I don't have you know, let's say eight. I'm kind of stubborn, but I don't hold on the spots, you know, like I'm stubborn for areas, but like a particular tree, nope, you know, if it's not there, Like I said, one sit, usually i'm going, especially like October, because I get I get really aggressive, especially in the morning, like I'm going or usually like come October, every one of my sits like I'm going

to kill, especially in the morning. I love mornings. So a lot of my outing is devised, you know, to capitalize on the October the law, I guess was what they call it. So morning sits in October I have the most success hunting in the morning. I see a lot of big Bucks at seven thirty in the morning when most people say they're they're they're in bed before dark, not always, you know. So it's like it's a lot of yeah, a lot of my scouting. I mean, all

these they are behind me there. There's only one that's killed at night. They're all mornings, you know, from seven to eight pm, you know, or seven to eight am. So a lot of my scouting is for morning setups in October and income November. It's just like, you know, it's a free for all. You'll find it dose you

find a box basically is your strategy. You know, find find a place where a buck's bed and find an individual bed and then figure out a way to get in there and beat him back there in the morning in October, yes, man, exactly, Nobody talks about that. And so again I'm gonna I'm gonna go out on a limb here. But I think I'm right. This is probably a function of there's crazy, you know, a crazy amount of hunter is in around Opener. Everybody's running their bait sites.

Everybody's excited, and then they go, this isn't that much fun. I'm gonna wait until Halloween to really get after it again. And you have that two or three week window in October on public land where even if your pressure is fifty percent of what it is at peak, that's a big difference. And then if you think, well now I'm in a hunt of morning, Now you've dropped another thirty percent of that pressure down, and it's like you can

hunt the deer for a couple of weeks. Yes, they I don't say they get they get less edgy, but I think they know, like said, the human pressure, because they're born in the pressure. So if you come in and you add pressure, stinkyo, whatever it might be. That buck's not going to run the next gun. He's got nowhere to go. He's just going to just avoid area and make a slight change. He's not gonna go, you know, three hundred yards orm all away. He's just gonna shift

his bedding or his route fifty sixty yards. Sometimes that's just nuts. That's because sometimes he has he doesn't have the space to go, and he's not gonna go walk through open timber or a field edge. He's going to go to the next available thick cover, which usually it's fifty or sixty yards it's not very far. So he's just he's adapting to the pressure. He's not like freaking out about it because you know, it's life. It's business usual for them, you know, And I think a lot

of people will get that mixed up. Like I bumped the buck. He's gone. Now he's gone for a couple of days. You know, he's going to alter things, especially if he gets out of his bed like super clean, you know, like his bed worth. He's not going to bandon that, you know, like you're going to abandon like something that saves your life basically now. So well, I mean that's that's the way to look at it, right,

is it. When you get out there and you're scouting right now, you're looking for those places where they're they're showing you, I was here in this place gave me some advantages. Yeah, you know, even if you stumble through there, or a woodcock hunter goes through there or whatever, it's not like they're going to abandon that completely that because that place gives them advantages. And it's not like if that buck gets killed, another one isn't going to figure

that out. And those those kind of situations are so important. Yes, and thanks. We talked about the ground sent Walking ground cent is different than like setting a tree stand up and sitting or sitting on the ground sent like when you're sitting there for long periods of time, like your scent is just saturating everything. And a mature dough or a mature buff like they know that, like this human

stopped here for a long time. But a walking trail, you know, it's like it's just it's the sense there, but it's not as perceived as a threat so much like they know something up to back up a little bit, but they don't get that big whiff of like oh

my god, those humans here. You know. It's just staking enough for hours on end, or a guy that hunts the same tree, you know, thirty times the season, you know, dude, I remember a couple of six seven years ago, I was hunting Wisconsin and I was hunting just this punk, this chunk of public land, and I had gone in and set up in this spot, and I actually saw quite a few deer off and I didn't kill one,

pulled my set out. You know. Next day I was going to go in where I saw saw these bucks chasing, and it snowed that night, and I remember walking down through there because it was off of this this little two track. And then I walked by the tree that I was in the day before, and there was all these sets of deer tracks in the snow coming up

to it. There was anything left in there, but they're just like somebody caught a whiff of it, checked it out, and then you could just see, like after hours when it was dark, they were like, Okay, some asshole was in here. They're aware of this, And I think that's going to happened, dude all the time. And then I've told sort of a few times. I was hout in the salt marsh and like bract of salt Marcearia, and

I had this big little buck come in. Two bucks come in, and it's you know, earn a buck, so you know how that goes, and he leaves him in the seven point of leave and then kind of look back from right here, it comes a smaller buck coming right to the base of my tree. I mean he came, he caught my ground, sent right up there. He came right to my tree, and I'm looking at him. I'm like, man, that big box around here somewhere. I'm looking all around,

looking all around. He's back in the shadows looking for humans up in the tree, and he sees we make eye contact and then he just backs right up in the dark disappears. He sent that little buck to go die basically because I beat him and he did not want to. He wanted to know who beat him, where

he was and how they got there. And I was like, wow, like how you're supposed to kill deer like that, like when this dear was old, stiffly he walked with like arthritis, You're like, he's seen some stuff, man, but that deer I beat him, and he'll really set his best buddy to die. Basically, well there you go, see where the seior Dane's come from, and he's looking up the trees. So I'm like that is just unreal, Like how is

that even possible for a prey animal. So he evolved to that, you know, that level where he wants to know what beat him, and he wants to see him in the tree, like he needs to validate that ground sent like and now you know, like he probably you went and hiding that you know, probably became because strictly nocturnal at that point. You know, dude, I think there's such a good lesson there. And I know people will listen to that and say that's b s. There's no

way they can communicate that way. Listen, man, I think the way that they're in tune to each other, we can't even understand it. I don't have you ever had a meal there before? No, Man, if you hunt like high country meal deer where you know, like your typical like late August Colorado hunt, where you're glassing up the big velvet bucks, you'll see those deer. They'll be like a one seventy and you know, three or four smaller bucks right, and you know they're bachelored up there in

the high country. Those suckers will bed down and that big buck will be in the best spot guaranteed. And then there'll be this little century buck here on this point and this one here, and you start reading it and you go, you know, they didn't probably like plan that, Like they're not saying, okay, you bed here, you bed here.

It just like nature shakes out that way, and it's like this, this little dude's got this corner, This little dude's got this corner, this dude's above, and it's like whether it's like intentional or totally just like a survival accident. They're unapproachable and you go like, that's it doesn't matter whether they did it on purpose, because they beat you already. And I just I think that stuff's incredible. Well, let's

see what you see it with do betting. When you find, like dough betting, they bed a group of does you know, especially in the marsh, you know, you in the salt marsh, you'll see they bed down in the reads. It's one point in this direction, one's going this way, one's going this way. They're covered a full three sixty and it's like it's ridiculous almost like you know, like a when geese land in the field, you have the feeders and

you have the centuries. There's always somebody watching, and I think you like, early season, it could be tough, you know, because bucks are grouped up, but you hit that beginning of October, then bucks start to separate, you know, and that's when that big one goes off on his own. And I find it's easier to kill a buck, a single deer, because he just has two eyes and two ears and two noses. You don't have four bucks behind him.

Everybody knows stents going everywhere, so it's like or a group of dose bet and so a singular buck in October. He's going from point A to point B. So you find out where he's feeding, find out where he's betting. You know, it doesn't always work out that way, but he's walking, he's taking his time. Shots are readily available because he's a no hurry to get back to the bed, you know, back to that seven thirty, he's still meandering back to his bed, like it's a good time to

be in the woods. If you understand, I think, you know, if you're scouting, helps you, you know, break down these these areas where they're finding where they're betting, and you know, getting close, like I get super aggressive, you know, and it's like it's not for everybody. I don't recommend that. There's a lot of times I get busted, you know, when it's dark out and it's like, well all this work for nothing, But it's like, well it worked, he was here, so it's like it's a win. It's just

an hour and a half too late, too soon. Yep. Well, I think what you're talking about there is an interesting point because I feel the same way when I love the October low like I love middle of October when when people say you shouldn't be out there, because I think you get a point where those Bucks, like you said, they're they're not hanging out together generally, and they get confident, like it's almost like they're overconfident about their safety if

they're in a really good spot. You don't see that with dose. Those are always kind of neurotic and like they're worried about keeping the little ones alive. But you see Bucks and it's like a it's a weakness I think you can exploit because yes, you know, like you said, you watch that buck bed down and it's like, you know, you're ticking down to the last couple of minutes of

shooting light, and you know, sometimes they get up. Sometimes they don't, but a lot of times they do, and it's just like they're just so confident they're safe there that they'll get up and go make a rub and start working their way down the trail. And yeah, they won't be to the field for until it's a half hour after dark, but they moved enough for you to kill them. And they just act like they're just king shit, like they don't have the same kind of danger and

that that's when they kill them. Yeah, and that's it scares a lot of people because it's you know, being a you know, hunting a particular buck. Anybody's on a particular buck for mature dear. In general, we don't have a lot of mature deer in New Jersey. So there might only be one four year old someone a piece of money in a bunch of two and a half

year olds. You know, if you do all this work and I've had good access, good entry, you know, good everything, Everything was good, you know, and daybreak comes, you know, here comes a spike on the net bed and it's like, well all right, you know, like all bulls are using this bad which is good, you know, like my fault process guy in that peace, like all right, this is a good spot for a buff to bed, Like it's didn't work out for me that time, you know, And

that scares a lot of people. Getting that aggressive, you're gonna chars. You don't scare them away, thank going anywhere they got nowhere to go, like where they're going, hop

on a plane and go somewhere else. I mean that that I think we're in a weird place with that kind of mentality right now though, because you know, the hunting industry in general sold us this idea that you should be super cautious because that was coming from people who could afford to wait, they didn't have they didn't have any you know, like didn't do him any good to go in on October tenth when nobody was going

to hunt their deer at all. So like, yeah, if you're preaching that message like well, you shouldn't go in, it's like, well, you shouldn't go in because you don't have to. But if you're hunting a place that's got a lot of pressure, like and you've scouted a lot, like you might as well strike now. And if you don't make it happen, I mean, that's why you win or scout. Now. It's so like when you do blow it up, you just move on to Plan B or

C or D or whatever. Yeah, Like I've tagged out like the first move of October and like, well shit, uh what do I do now? It's like, well, Delaware or Pennsylvania here I come, you know, because I can't get another buck tag till you know, the end of October. You know. But it's like it's cool to tag out early. But at the same time we're like it's over, Like I don't want to for you over, Like I want to struggle a little bit more, you know. And so it's like it's a it's a rewarding part of hunting,

you know. And I've I think it was Andre or or maybe Dan that talked about it's not being you know, you're not being careless or aggressive. You know, you're being calculated and you're set up. You're not just like throwing your cautions to wind, like you know where he's betted and you're gonna come in, you know, and the wind's

gonna be perfect for him, awful for you. You're like, you're you're, you're that razor's edge and you're going like, but it's not aggressive, it's just it's very You're it's very tactical and very thought out because that's the only time you're gonna get a chance to that dear, you know, because it's you know, once October Halloween hits that bus, you know, berserker moode running here or there everywhere. So

I love that October. I love scouting for October, you know, And like I think most of my winner scouting is for those October moments, and it's just like when you're focusing on rubs when you're winner scouting. Now, I mean, I think there's a I think there's sort of a misconception if you go and just find a place, like you were talking about, this is just ripped up, and you're like, man, they were here, this wasn't just one buck,

this was and they're good ones. I think people go out, you know, in February, March whatever, and they see that and they go, man, I'm getting here on November third, and I'm sitting all day and I look at that, and I go, why don't you get there on like October twentieth, yes, and kill them. And it could be because of that that wild card of when the ruts, you know, even really the pre ruts like kicking in that concentration assign might not really matter that much that

you've found in March. That's funny you said October twentieth, That is my day. I've killed five or six bucks in October twentieth, and that is the troll camera data in my visious like that is the day to be in the woods eighteen to twenty. First, it's a lot of day walk and a lot of big bucks are on their feet. Maybe they're just checking the scene out, see where the food is, the does are, the human pressure is, and they go back and hiding. Maybe they

get lucky find the hot dough, you know. But I think they get up and that urge to breathe and they know what's going on. They had They can't be super secretive, you know, they have to, you know, because I think older bucks want to breathe one one or two times, maybe three times, and they're good. That's enough for them because they've been through enough seasons where it's survival. You know, they've been shot it, they've been hit, maybe wounded.

They're not going to run, you know, like a two year old all over the wood chasing one or two and some of these boxes want to retreat back to safety security, you know. I I think that that's like, I think that's a really good thing to acknowledge because when you look at how often we kind of talk about this stuff, I think people don't associate. They just think, Okay, I'm gonna winter scout and it's going to be it's just a general plus the general benefit for me in

the fall, It's like I don't know. I mean, finding rubs a concentration of rubs right now in the woods probably doesn't do you that much good on opening night next year. Maybe not for the first opening week because of all the people who might be out there or whatever. But when those deer get into that, like, Okay, I know I'm getting hunted. I know I still want to do my thing, but like you're talking with those bucks, I'm not gonna be running all over the place. I'm

not showing myself in daylight out in the fields. That's the connection here, Like there's like a March to October connection that's like so beneficial. And I think people kind of just like they don't understand that it's not just a general seasonal benefit. It's just like maybe maybe three weeks, maybe four weeks, but it's real important. Yeah, And and

scout with the purpose. You know, if you if your vacation is November, you go in to Iowa, you know, and if you get a chance to scout II or whatever, it's like I'm gonna take a week off in November. Rubs should not be on your list. You should be mark them. It's cool you found them, but you should be focused on is those rubs and your dough betting, you know, and vice versus. So I like said, I purposely most of my scouting is for October, you know. I it's just you know, and I think the reason

for that. When I first started hunting, you had to apply for a permit to hunt in November, Well you weren't guaranteed a permit. Well, I think my first two or three seasons I didn't get in November. My dad did, so I just had October and I had to wait till gun season a week in December, and then nothing until January. So it kind of there are a few years not pulling tags, you know, getting a permit, you got,

I got four weeks to kill something. So it's like you're getting that mode where it's like this is it. I have to make these three or four weeks count, and it's just like it's just kind of compounded through years over that, you know, and then as you get older, jobs like I couldn't know vacation time, so it's like, well, come November, it's dark by time we go for work, but not in October. So it's like I kind of just did the October thing because that's what I had.

So it's like I'm the worst rut hunter anybody to tell you. Thought to Clint Johnny go like I've already killed maybe what three bucks in November, maybe four. I'm October guy, So it's like scout for October. I'm the same way. I mean, I've killed some bucks in November, but I'm way way more successful in September and October. And I mean I should say this. You know, if you if you get out there scouting right now, it's

not like there isn't a rut benefit to it. I mean you might find a pinch point or a fence crossing or something like a river crossing whatever. You might find a train trap where you're like, yep, this is a November seventh spot, but like you got to know what you're looking at, right, Like that concentration of rubs might not be the November seventh spot. Understanding that and understand. But again, two more miles you put on and you find that stuff. The more you have those options as

your season rests, and it's it's such an advantage. And I remember, either you're reading or hearing like Andy may talk about that those rubs, and those rubs pop up there as a certain time of year. You know, these rubs gonna get hot, you know, and if you have a quick access you can check out him like that bucks in there for only three or four days, you know, and that's when those rubs are kind of they're hopping off.

So you need to be there when it happens. Maybe it's the twentieth of October, you know, maybe it's the twenty sixth of October. You know, but you have to get out and check those big rub spots and be ready to hunt when you're out there, because sometimes you can't see it from the road, like you got to be in there so they are right, I'm gonna go hunt this and hopefully they're there. If not, there are given a three day come back in three days, you know,

and you try to play that. You know that three day I do believe three day windows is key because that box will be here for a few days and he's gone for a few days and come back for a few days and there's on a cycle, you know, like hunting the Big Wood Mountain books. This is a constant cycle here in Jersey is to say, smaller cycle because they don't have the ability to roam as far yep.

I mean I think you know when you when you talk about Andy and he's talking about that, like you got that window there, you know it might be a couple of days here, or you know you're talking about hunting in mid October when other people aren't. I think, like maybe the most important lesson there from guys like you and Andy is you you have to go out and learn when your stuff's gonna be good or when

when it could potentially be good. Like if you're if you're listening to a whole bunch of people in the hunting industry and they're telling you you gotta do this, you gotta do that, and this is the best time there's there might be some good stuff in there right Like there might be, but like your specific spot and all of these little variables a factor in there, Like okay, well you're in Jersey, there's a you know, people can shoot five bucks, people can bait, people can do this,

people can do that, people can cross bo hunt. It's like, okay, you filter all that stuff down to there. Now, what do you have to do to be successful? Got to scout a lot. You gotta find new spots a lot, Like you got to you gotta put in the work, and you could follow all the advice from a bunch of hunting industry people and it wouldn't do any good because your situation does not mirror there's in any way. And you know, like I had a conversation this morning,

Janis and I are both applying to Iowa together. He wants to come out and hunt Iowa and we have enough points to maybe draw, and he's like, well, we got to do this in November, right, And I was like, I'm going in October. And he's like, well, that's the best option for me travel wise, But he's like like,

how do you think it's gonna be. I'm like, it's gonna be freaking amazing, Like, yeah, we're gonna We're gonna be all over deer, and we're gonna be there before because we're gonna be hunting public land if we draw. And I'm like, even though it's Iowa, I know on November one, there'll be the most people in the woods that there will be all season long, for the next fourteen days. I want to get in there ahead of that.

When those bucks are starting to move a little bit and they're laying down sign and everybody else is like I'm waiting two more weeks or a week and a half to kill them. I can't freaking wait. Yeah, that's a he said. You gotta know you're like your strengths, you know, like some people are better November hunters, like I don't. I can see those like I don't hunt dose. So it's like come November, like I have a hard time shifting to dough mode because September October it's like,

especially October it's bucks only. Like I always say, if you're seeing four or five pointers, six pointers, you ain't seeing the big Buck because he's completely separate from all those. If you're seeing a bunch of doze in October, it's already not seeing a Buck. So it's like I getting so buck mode, and then like the ruck comes, It's like I can't turn it off. It's a very hard switch. And it's like these last couple of years, I've gotten better at it, but I had those a ten year

stretch anything. I drew my bow back in November and it was like because I was strictly like so buck obsessed, like I forgot It's like, oh, it's the run and all my butters are drunk, hungover, or just driving down the road and see a buck chase and Devin go

kill it. I'm getting up early, I'm taking canoe with or you know, or taking a long way around and just getting my buck kicked because I didn't know how to how I understood how November worked, but I couldn't get out of my own way with it, so fixated on sure bump beds and rubs. And it's like, so you need to know how your brain works and use that to your advantage, Like, don't necessarily play of your your weaknesses, Like if you're November guy, to go all

in November man, like you get it. If you're September guy, got the food sources, go all in play of your strengths when when you're scouting. But I do think, you know, because I'm not you know, I haven't talked about this a ton, but you know, I live in Minnesota. Our our gun season starts the first Saturday in November everyear, so I think this year it's like November fourth or fifth, So you know, you got half a million gun hunters

out there and the ruts just barely cranking. And so I was always September in October because by you know, I never had a rut hunt to count on and I found you know, people say, well, hunt the doe betting areas, hunt down windo those but dobetting areas whatever for me to get over that rut hump, because like people like, oh, it's it's the best time. It's like always going to be the best, and then you go and actually hunt it, and a lot of times it

really sucks, especially on public land. It's like not nearly as good as it's supposed to be. I think it's a matter of being like good enough scouting to find some train traps you believe in, and then having the willingness to be bored off your ass and disappointed and sit them and at least give every you know, give a couple of them real dark to dark sits if

the wind is working for you. And just because I've noticed this, like some of the bigger bucks I've killed in the rut, they might be like the only deer I see that day, or I might see like two deer or three deer, but the right one comes along. But you might have eight hours where you don't see a deer or two days. Yeah, and it's that's tough, man. I firm believe in that. When I see a lot of deer in November daybreak up, I've seen a bunch

of doze. It's always little bucks behind and then come eleven, between eleven and two, there'll be a singular box that rolls through. Like very rarely, especially in November, I don't have much luck seeing big bucks early in the morning. It's it's a it's a rarity, you know. It's unless they're with a dough Like I don't get that chasing or that, you know, that what everybody wants. I rarely

get that. I get that eleven to two, eleven to three, that single buck coming through and nose to the ground, and it's a tough I mean I was at full draw four times this year and no shots because it's thick, you know, it's like everything by scouting all that stuff words, but that buck was just moving too fast, too thick, and I'm like, well, I got a bell, I don't

have a gun, you know. So it's like it's there like twenty yards and under and they're walking because well I'm not shooting through, yo, It's take a bush out of walking deer. Yeah, I've been down that road before. It doesn't it doesn't pay well. Not a good idea. Yeah, I have the same experience with bucks at ten eleven twelve, like early in the afternoon, where you'll see the first deer and he's cruising through and you're like, you know, it reminds me of a bow hunt turkeys a lot,

and you know, if you're out there early season. You know here in minnesota'll be mid April when it opens, you know, Nebraska be early or whatever. But when you get them like flocked up, they're all roosting together, they're all feeding together. You know, yeah, you have a million gobbles, doesn't matter, you're not calling them away. And then like ten o'clock eleven o'clock, they start cruising and you'll pick that bird up, that two year old or three year old.

It's like, I just I gotta go looking. It feels exactly like a lot of rut hunts where you're like, yeah, there might have been a bunch of action right away, but like you said, a lot of times, it's not that one forty. It's like scrappers and doughs. And then you get that die off and then you're like, oh, man, like this I haven't seen anything in three hours, and

then all of a sudden you see them coming. You're like, there's something to it, Like they got they got sick of the doughs they were with, or they gave up on it, and now they're like, I gotta go find I gotta go to that next concentration, and that's when you kill them. Yeah, it's I think you similarities between fishing and hunting and turkey hunting and hunting different things. I think there is a common core, you know, a

thread between all of them. You know, like I hunt I fished these fisher stripers a lot in Kate May, and you hunt the rips and you hunt points, and these big fish are down low even though you had a big tail and the super strong swimmers they're using, you know, the terrain to their advantage to you know, everything comes to them, you know. And then it's like trout fishing. You watch a big trout sitting behind the rock. He's in that position, you know, because it's advantageous to

him to be in that position. I can eat easily. You know. It's like hunting turkeys and deer. It's like it's very similar. If you're good at one. You can be good at a lot of different forms of hunting it or fishing. Dude, I talk about that. I write about that all time. I don't know if anybody believes me or not, but I think any time you spend out there hunting and fishing, you're learning how to be

a better hunter or fisherman. Like I mean, the parallels there, I mean, the things that I learned about deer from

pheasant hunting public land are amazing. Like it's it's like a weird little education every time you go, and it's just because you're out there with them, and it's you know, it's just there's so many like I learned how to hunt mountains and the terrain how deer you used terrain from hunting fishing streams, small mouth streams and hunting big reservoirs, and the points where the big bass to hide and they go up, you know, up and down, you know

these points. I learned how to hunt the mountains. I learned how to hunt mountains and have success pretty quickly, you know. And I'm three hours away from the near set of mountains. So it's like I went up there and I was like, it's just like fishing. You know what it's like, there's the correlations is identical, and it's like it's just mountain hunting clicked for me. It was like I find it relatively easy, you know, because deer can only travel so many ways in the mountains, you know.

And I got that from fishing years of fishing. I fished every day. So when you're fishing, you know, if you're really a good fisherman, you're learning watch what water does, what insects do, like how pressure human pressure changes, fish changes the bike. You know, when it's clear length, heavy pressure, fish go deep. There's heavy pressure. With deer or human sport of deer you go, they usually go deep. There's a lot of you know, a lot of similarities between

the two. Yeah. I was literally talking to my daughters about this when we're having breakfast the other morning, and I don't remember how it came up, but you know, we fish all the freaking time. We love to fish Smally's and they like to hunt with me, and we were talking about just like why we like doing stuff in the outdoors, and I think it came up because

we were talking about training dogs. But anyway, I really think one of the ways that that makes you like if you if somebody's listening to this and they just started deer hunting in they're like, there's no way if I fish smallis I'm going to get better at deer hunting. But you've got to think about what are you doing when you're fishing smallies or you're trout fishing, you know, fly fish and trout. You're just solving a problem, right, Like you're taking a set of conditions that were handed

to you. Okay, the water's high, it's this color, it's May fifteenth. You know they should be on beds, but maybe they're not or whatever. And you start breaking it down, you go, okay, where should they be? You know, is it a Saturday at two o'clock and they've already been you know, thrown to five thousand times? Or is it a Tuesday morning? Is it July and there's a cold front,

or is it you know what I mean? Like you start to factor in that stuff and it's like, okay, now you just you're you're literally reading the weather and the quarry and the conditions and the pressure and everything, and you're going, okay, what's my best chance? How is that any different than when you walk into public land? You're like, I gotta kill a deer. Like, what are you filtering through your brain right there? Okay, well it's cloudy,

it's been cold for four days. It's Wednesday morning, it's not Saturday night. Like there's you know what I mean. It's like I think that you just partially get better because you're getting good at solving those problems. Yes, I agree, I'd be one, and I think that's why. I don't know. I just think there's a lot of benefits to get

out there and doing a bunch of different stuff. We were about done here, buddy, I got to ask you, do you see I always wrestle with this because you know, they put together all this content on winter scouting, and you know, shed hunting is a little different. A lot of people seem to shed hunt. Now do you ever, like, do you run across people out there winter scouting? Like if you hit a just ball park it? And I say, okay, take any ten bow hunters out in Jersey. What percentage

how many of those dudes winter scout? What would you say? I would say everyone will say they do, but I rarely see people. And what do you think the real number is? Out of ten? I would say me and someone else so too, Yeah, I was gonna see I say, actually, like most people are pulling their trail cameras. That's where

they're scouting ends. They're pulling the cameras. Like I'm getting habit of leaving cameras out, Like I don't really pull some of my cameras like March because I want to see, like I'll go put new batteries and check for people. But I know it was like, oh, this this dude is in here like four days a row. He either found the bang or set of sheds. You're trying to bring his deer out, or he's seen it baked deer

and he's trying to find the sheds. So I'm like, well, this dude's on something, So all right, maybe I need to go in there and church a little bit more. You know. It's like maybe I didn't get that hear my camera button. If you catch somebody going until spot a bunch times, there's a reason they're in there, yep. Do So you say maybe maybe twenty percent of the people, I wouldn't say maybe twenty percent too, Like I wouldn't go much higher than that. I kind I kind of

look at it like all day sits. Everybody talks about it. I don't. I don't think that many hunters actually do very many all day sits. All day sits a brutal You know, I don't know if this is because I have kids now or what. I actually don't mind them that much. If it's not, if if the conditions aren't horrible. Yeah, but like what, so I want to wrap this up then, so you say we're we're in agreement here on twenty

percent of the people might win or scope. You know, some people are out there shed hunting, like you said, some people are out there looking for trail cameras. How important is winner scouting to you to your fall success? Like one, not important at all. Ten It's my favorite thing because it always helps me kill big bucks. Ten yeah, ten, eleven and twelve one hundred. If everybody who's listening to this, maybe the most important thing we covered is just that

right there. Not very many people do this, and guys who are absolute killers go out and this is the time when they set the stage for those kills. Yes, I agree, majorly important. Thank you so much for coming on. Man, this has been a blast. I'm definitely gonna get you on again. Oh sweet, I enjoyed it. Thanks Buddy later. That's it for this week, folks. Be sure to tune

in next week for more whitetail goodness. This has been the Weird to Hunt podcasts and I've been your guest host Tony Peterson as always, Thank you so much for listening. And if you're looking for more white tail content, be sure to check out the meat eater dot com slash wired and you'll see a pile of new articles each week by Mark myself a whole slew of white tail addicts. Or you can head over to the wire to Hunt YouTube channel to view the weekly content that we put up