Ep. 627: How Mark Drury and His Team Create Whitetail Paradise with Wade Robinson and Perry Battin

white tail hunts. All right, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light. And today we are kicking off another series and it is Habitat Month. That's right, four straight weeks of white tail habitat discussions.

We're gonna cover everything from food plot to timberstand improvement, to grass management and water holes and hinge cutting and who the heck knows soil health, regenerative agriculture, everything from this way to that way, everything we can be doing to improve our properties for deer and deer hunting and all sorts of other critters too. I think that's an

important thing to remember. We have an opportunity and and and I would say an obligation to not only you know, steward our landscapes for the creatures who want to hunt, but also for all of those other creatures out there, um, who share that landscape, the birds and the bees and the pollinators and turkeys, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons. It's all an interconnected system. And by working to improve these places, we can help that entire ecosystem, which I think is pretty

darn cool thing. So that's why I'm particularly excited take off another month of this habitat kind of discussion. UM. I found myself a lot last season dreaming about, Oh, man, I wish I could have done this thing. I wish I had improved this area. I wish I could have, you know, tweaked this food plot in this kind of way, or I wonder what I should do different next year. There's there's been a lot of those kinds of questions, UM,

as you all know, or at least long time listeners. UM, you know, I had had a really fun hunting season last year, re energized and excited to uh to do some new things this year. So there's gonna be a lot of work done on my side on a property I have permission on and then on my family deer camp up north. Hopefully we'll be doing some work too, so we'll we'll be exploring some of those ideas as

we go along. But like I said, it's Habitat Month and we're kicking things off today with a really great duo of guests, and I'm going to give you a little bit of background on them in a second, but I want to first give you I'm not gonna say homework, but I want to give you some extra reading material if you want to dive deeper into these different habitat ideas that we're going to discuss today and the month. I wanted to share four different now it might be

actually five, five different reading recommendations. If you follow my Instagram account over at wired Hunt, you know I'm a big reader, always digging into different things, and that applies to deer and habitat related topics too, And so I've got five books here that I highly recommend if you want to get more habitat ideas, if you want some more detailed insight into how to improve and manage your

land for wildlife and white tails. Here are some recommendations. First, I'm a really big fan of White Tailed Deer Management and Habitat Improvement. Very creative title. That's the title of the book by Steve Bartilla. Steve has been on the show in the past, We've talked habitat in the past with him, and this book is it does a really good job of covering the whole slate of management questions,

habitat improvements, um. But particularly he does he's a lot of illustrations maps where he showcases his plans, his designs, how he you know, plots out different things, how he puts an access routes and food plots and habitat and cover improvements, all that kind of good stuff like that. The diagrams are are really helpful, a lot of good pictures that showcase some of the work he does. So so that's a really good one. Another great book if you want to really get into the nitty gritty of

food plots. This is probably the top book I would recommend if you are starting as a food plotter and just need like everything from eight is he covered. It's quality food plots and it's published by the Quality Deer Management Association, or well it was published by the q d m A. Now they're known as the National Deer Association.

I believe they still sell it on their website. Um so that's called quality food Plots, really really good, kind of step by step by step as far as everything you need to know to prepare locations, to choose locations, to amend the soil, to you know, take soil tests, to choosing the right seed to plant, to how to manage it, you know, just everything. So definitely check that one out. The next set of books is as a duo here as well, and it is White Tail Habitat

Success by Design and Food Plot Success by Design. The first book is kind of a more holistic set of ideas across all habitat projects, while the second one is is very food plot focused. Um but both of these books. What I like about them written by Jeff Sturgis, of course, is Jeff's approach to habitat management improvement. It's very system focused. By that, I mean he does not recommend anything in isolation. He's not gonna say I just plant a food plot wherever,

and here's what you should plant in and here's why. No, it's it's always connected. He discusses and really emphasizes the connected nature of everything on a property. So if you put a food plot here, what does that mean for the betting and what does that mean for your access? And how do all these things interact and how will the deer movement change? And how will that impact how you can get in and out or how you should hunt?

And so it's a very strategic approach to habitat improvements and to food plot design, location, planting, all that stuff. It's very very good. So if you want to take that next step in your habitat work and your food plotting work, um, these two are are really good, really diving into that, you know, how does this all impact

a hunting strategy? And then last another book called Grow Him Right by Neil and Craig Doherty, another really good overview of a bunch of different things when it comes to habitat improvement and and more of a habitat management philosophy. I think there's there's definitely some how twos in here, but I love the philosophy that Kneel and Craig share here. Um. Craig was a mentor of mine previous to his passing, and I can't I can't tell you much I appreciate

some of the things he taught me. Early on, and I think this book does a great job of continuing sharing some of those messages and insights to people through the written word. So those are my five Habitat book recommendations. Check them out if you want to for are your foundation in this kind of stuff. So that is a long roundabout way of getting to our main kind of topic of discussion, which is how Mark Jury has such amazing white tail hunting properties. How does he get these

amazing deer year after year after year. How does he keep sony deer in these areas? How does he have so many quality hunts? How does he manage these places so darn well so consistently. That's our topic of discussion, and we're doing it with the two guys who are the blood, sweat and tears behind Mark juries, or at

least behind much of mark juries success. Not saying he's not doing a lot of this work too, but he has the help of Wade Robinson and Perry Batton, his farm managers, who are out there seemingly every day doing some kind of project. And my goal today was to get a behind the scenes look at just what they're doing, how they're doing it, what the strategies are that they're employing.

You know how I think about food plot design, food plot location, what they plant, where they planted, how they planted, how they deal with drought. Um, what are the little tweaks and tiny details that they focus on that most people don't. I think that's something that really stands out about Mark is his attention to detail, not just with hunting, but with his property designs and habitat improvements. And we're gon dive into that as well. There's some some really

interesting things there that that Wade and Perry share. So that's the game plan. Wade and Perry are are good guys, smart guys, hard workers, and uh, they really know how to do this work and do it well. That's why I was so excited to have him on the show. And that's the game plan for today's episode. So without any further Ado, let's listen to Wade Robinson and Perry Batton and then I will definitely recommend you guys check out everything the guys over the Drewy Outdoors team are

doing on their deer Cast app the YouTube channel. It's all great stuff. So, without further Ado, Wade and Perry all right with me now on the line, I've got Mark or he's terrible to some of Wade Robinson and Perry Batton, guys, thank you for being here, absolutely, thank you for having us just sir, no problem. I'm glad we're finally getting the chat. I've talked to Mark a lot over the years and have been there to h Q and hung out, but I've yet to get to

bump into you guys. I'm glad we're finally finally connecting and and talking about something that I know that all three of us really love, and this time of year, I think it's top of all of our minds, which is uh which is habitat work, which is working the ground, growing you know, wildlife, and and making for some cool

memories out there. So so I gotta start with a quick question for you both right now, you know, as we're getting into late winter, maybe you'd call this, Are you resting and recouping it all or do you feel like you're revving up already into like the busy season already because you can see like nineteen thousand different things already on your to do list to prepare for next year. How do you feel right now on that you know,

you know, going into this time of year. We we just finished up um Missouri into January, and uh, this is the time that if we're going to take a little week vacation or a long weekend, this is the time to do it. But um, like I say, the work definitely doesn't slow down. We uh you know, this morning we were already putting out uh analogics and trying to keep dear healthy, bringing in bringing them into next year.

So yeah, and I mean we certainly have a little bit shorter days kind of due to the season and you know, hot cold at the grounds of frozen. We can't do some of the things we want to do. And then like tonight, we're not gonna go kyled hunting, so it'll be a long night, long hours if you will, something we enjoy. But you know, we certainly have some shorter days now the season is over. But but we don't shut down. Yeah, and I guess that's part of the beauty of it, right. It's it's fun stuff all

year around, a lot of work, but you're like doing it. Um, so we finish up just to start over again. Yeah. So so here's something I want to kind of kick things off of a little bit, and that's you know the fact that there's so many folks that have watched the product of what you guys do, right I mean, people have watched Mark's and your guys hunts on TV

and YouTube for years. They've seen all these you know, beautiful looking places, They've seen these big old dear they've they've seen the hunts, and I think a lot of folks make assumptions based on that. I think a lot of folks kind of know how this is how it goes, or this is what they must be doing, or this is how it is um I mean think even maybe for you guys yourselves before you started working for Mark, I imagine you had an idea of, you know, what

it was that was going on behind the scenes. So my question for you is, if you had to kind of put yourselves in the listeners shoes right now, and if you were just an average guy listening to this podcast making assumptions about, you know, how things go when it comes to creating the kind of hunting that you guys have and that Mark has. What's one assumption that you think people make that is wrong. What's one thing that we should just like get off the table right now.

That's that's wrong that a lot of people think is true. Either one of you can, well, we have never stepped foot one in a high fence. Um. That's probably one of the biggest things. And another thing is is our property size. Everybody thinks that we're hunting these thousand acre farms, you know, five thousand acre farms, and that's definitely not the case. Granted, I started probably twelve years ago, and then in the earlier years we had some bigger farms

right around that thousand acre mark um. But here over the last five years, we've made a huge trans transition into a smaller satellite farms type approach, and the biggest acreage consecutive farm we have currently is four seen acres. Yeah, I mean, which is which is a big farm. But I mean we're we're also hunting farms, fifty acre farms and a ton of eighty acre farms, you know that, a lot of eighties and one twenties, a couple of

forties across both states Iowa and Missouri. But yeah, definitely the high fence comment and then that we have, you know, five thousand acres, it's manicured like someone in the yard to hunt is a is a false statement. So yeah, but I mean and in the hours and and work that like you just said, the hours and worth it myself, Perry Mark Uh, Terry Forest. You know we all put into these farms is what they're seeing in that you know,

thirty minute episode on TV. You don't get to see that the hours, days, blood, sweat, tears that go in into into this these farms. Yeah, everybody just sees the thirty minute, thirty minute episode on TV or YouTube and think these guys got a great well, looks so real. I mean, yeah exactly. I mean this morning our work truck, the starter was clicking, so that was you know, just right off the bat. You know, some Monday morning it's not Monday, but just simple things like that can make

your day go south real quick. So yeah, speaking of Monday mornings, I saw me today that made me chuckle. It said, uh, Monday's are a stick that looks like a shed. I thought, yep, you see that stick up there and you go running after like ash ship. That's not a ship. Um. Anyways, to to that, to that one main assumption about the farm size, I think that's really interesting where you were saying, Wade about this transition you guys made. What was that? What was the thumb

process about that? What what led to Mark wanting to switch from the big farms to the bunch of small pieces and satellite kind of approach. Yeah. So my very first year, two thousand twelve, I started in the summer and Mark was so excited. We had all these great year on on camera in uh, you know, June July, and then all of a sudden, August hit and bam e h. D hit one of the hardest years other

than two thousand and eight. It hit really hard, But in two thousand twelve it hit so hard and literally wiped out We had, you know, a couple of different bigger farms. Uh, you know, it just wiped out the whole population of bucks basically. I mean, we had some some nice bucks to still chase, but it wiped out eight percent of our deer. So, um, you know, Mark was kind of talking to different guys and stuff, and um, you know, this guy's farm over here five miles didn't

even get touch with the HD. They never found a dead deer one. So Mark Stinking's like, man, we gotta we gotta, you know, broaden our our spectrum here, we gotta get out of these big farms, because if the h D hits, it wipes out your whole year or your whole you know, five years. The next five years is tough. Um. So he went to the more satellite type of approach because e h D is so spotty. Um, it allows you to get hit over here and not ruined you know, the next five years to come. So

we just bounce around to two different forty eight acre pieces. Granted, like Perry said, we have you know, we do have a couple other UH farms that are are a little bit bigger in size. You know, four hundred and seventeen acres is is our largest track right now, consecutive track granted. Um. You know there's like mindeds managers that are neighbors in some of these spots, but our largest track is four

seventeen acres. So um. You know, basically the main reason was e h D UM and hunting different a bunch of different deer herbs, you're more likely to have a really good deer um versus you know, your farm get hit one year and you have to wait, you know, three to five years to have another really nice deer to chase. And so far, man, it's it's definitely been

been paying off. So outside of just the e h D kind of risk mitigation, what about how you know, has has it panned out the way you guys thought from you know, being able to steal, hunt and hold big deer side of things because the risk a lot of times people worry about what these small properties is that you just don't have as much influence over what deer make it through your age structure all that kind

of stuff. Have you guys, have you seen like is the satellite approach harder or is it easier because you have so many other options and you can, you know, check this farm, this farm, this farm. Well, I mean I would say that. I mean it's definitely harder to raise and grow a big deer. Granted we've done it. Um we've had deer that you know, I have those deer that stay on those smaller parcels and and just don't leave. Um, but uh, you know, I think it

can be a little harder in that regards. But you just have to find the right farm, the right small farm and make it as good as possible, have food half cover and uh, you know that's the main thing is is have you know you have these smaller farms. But make that smaller farm the best possible farm it can be, is the main main thing. Yeah, I would. I would add to that. Also, as you know, we have a little bit of risk factor when it comes to all of our smaller farms because we have to

deal with more neighbors. Granted, as many farms as we have, we have some really really good neighbors that are that are on the same mindset, mindset as us. I mean there's a few, you know, bad apples here and there, but that's just part of the game. And uh. And also to add to the small farm is intrusion, Like we do not step foot on these places. She had seasons. It is about the only time in planting and hunting and stuff, and some of them, you know, we'll we'll

hunt only once, yeah, twice a year. If there's not like a definite mature deer that's on the list to kill, we might not step foot on it at one time, but we'll plant it and act like there's a two hundred on it. Yeah, every farm gets treated the same as far as food plots and access and everything goes on the setup. But if the mature deer is not there to kill. We don't. We don't mess with it. No, let them grow. Yeah, you mentioned Wade. I think it was you who said that A big part of it

is is getting the right small farm. What have you guys found so far when it comes to identifying like a small farm that can actually perform you know, at a higher level it can hunt bigger or hold you know more. Dear, have you guys kind of fine tune what it takes to find that right small farm yet? Um? Yeah, I mean again, the number one part of that is is due diligence on the on the neighbors and what they're killing and and what you know, what they're willing

to pass. Um. That is I would say it because if they're shooting every two and three year old buck that you know walks by them, I mean you're you know, you're you're shooting for the moon at that point. Neighbors is probably number one. Um, due diligence on that. And then you know, obviously you want a good ratio between between cover and an open ground so that you could plant food and hold deer um, or have a lot of cover around you and plant you know, have a

lot of cover on the neighbors. And and plant your big food on your open grounds. So I mean there's we have different farms with that, we have different tactics on um both. Yeah. I mean we have a uh fifty acre lease that's uh all open tillable, but it busts up to about acre block to timber. Well obviously there's acorns and stuff in the timber. But you know, we plant a big food plot and uh early in late season, you know, like taking candy from a baby. They all you know, on a on a wide open

tillable field. You know, we'll see deer a night. You know, just the main goal is to plant food and have makes them want to be on that property. Yeah, the neighbors in that country he's talking about are pretty good too. That everyone over there kind of wants to shoot big deer and and late season and early season we do. We do well there because we always got food so so so and that is a lot of that is a big thing that a lot of people overlook so like why do you guys have all the deer? Why

are you seeing fifty seventy you know, eighty deer a night? Well, you know, we got food. Like people think that you know that these deer are just gonna come out to a cut field. Yeah, they will if that's all that they got around. Um, you know, because there's residual and stuff out there. Um. But you might see here, you might see a twelve year there's a standing field next by, They're going to that one. Yeah, especially with these well not so harsh to pass a couple of years harsher

winters here in southern Ireland, northern Missouri. You know, you get snow on standing food, You'll have all this year. So would you say away? And I know that that I hesitated even ask the question because I know it's it's always situation dependent. But if you had to rank order the importance of the different major factors in whitetail habitat when you guys are trying to, you know, make one of these small properties is the best it can be?

If you had to rank you know, food, cover, water, and let's say access, how would you rank those four if you had to, you know, taken out you know, all the unique variables. Just if we had to average it out, how would you rank those four things? Uh? You know, either one pair you want to start? I would say covers number one. Um, you can't have and dear, don't live in a wide open uh cut cornfield, cut

bean field. You know, you can own forty acres of terrible if there's no cover around it, you're having no wild So I would say that was number one, and uh, I think access for me would be number two, and then food being number three. I think that'd be the top for me. Um, because honestly, you can have the best looking farm on in the United States, but if your access is horrible, you might as well just chalk it up as a loss because you're gonna blow him

and spook him every time you try to go to it. Yeah, what do you think, Wade? I agree with Perry. Um. You know, I would obviously, like Perry said, to cover if they're not gonna go bed in a wide open corn or bean filled Um. You know. So, I mean, yeah, it's hard to argue the cover. But access has always been number one for me. Just like Perry said, if you have bad access, you you're gonna blow the deer out that you're supposedly hunting before you even see them.

In ninety five percent of the time you don't even know that you did it. You know, they won't even let you know that just you just won't have a good set it. You won't see any year you get skunk. So accesses in my opinion number one, Uh, in any type of hunting, you gotta you gotta be able to get in there without them knowing that you're there. And then um, obviously uh cover for them to stay in and food. I mean you don't have no food, particularly late,

they are not gonna come buy you very regularly. So and then obviously water is great during the rut. But you know, we we started doing some water holes over the last couple of years and uh, you know this past fall we've had probably one, two, three three different bucks uh that were mature that you know we could have killed over water. Um. You know we almost killed one on a water Yeah. I almost killed one um

on a water hole. So um. The only reason I didn't rink water high is because you know, you can run a track. Oh, you can hire somebody. You can put water where you want. Really, Um, you know we've taken fields that are flat food plot you know, get a traco in there and Diggie tiggy water hole kind of designs set up. You know, I take a little bit a little bit of time to get some random filled up. But I mean, you can get water where you want, really, and most of these farms have, and

Iowa particularly, you know, it's so hilly and ditchy. You know there's water about anywhere. You know, they can get their water about anywhere. So it's not as a big of a factor, um for us here in Iowa and Missouri. Yeah, but no, I guess here's a slightly different way to look at that same kind of topic. Um, if you've got let's say, just like an average piece of dirt that's got some cover, it's got some openings, it's got a streamer pond or something. There's a little bit of

everything on it. Um, what have you found to be? You know, if you had to pick like the most impactful project, if there was, you know, if I told you, hey, you can only make you can only work on one project this year, it's gonna be your only improvement you're allowed to make on this average piece of ground that has some openings, it's got some food, it's got some coverage,

it's already got a little bit of everything. But nothing's great, and you have the opportunity to do one big project, you know my my assumption I jumped to assuming you would put in some awesome food source. Am I right on that? Or is there something else that you would actually find to be more impacted? Absolutely? You know, food plot architecture um would definitely be number one. Make you know, make them come within bow range and make it as large as feasible to your population on the place and

uh feasible to hunt. Yeah, and then plan to your position. When you guys arted with Mark, and I mean you came into this in twos and twelve way and and Perry, it's it's just been a handful of years now for you, right, maybe three years, is that right? Yep? Yep, yeah, three

years now. Okay. So when you walked in the you know, quote unquote door walking the door and Mark takes you out to one of the farmers for the first time or you get out there for the first spring or summer or whatever it was, and you started working on food plots with him, do you remember, you know, I guess what what's what surprised you the most or shocked you, or what stands out when you first got to look at how his mind is when it comes to this stuff,

or what his approach is to food, plot, architecture, or his or how demanding he is about some aspect of it. Is there anything that stood out when you like got started where you were like, holy crap, this is a this is a different guy, or this is we're gonna be doing things different? What would that be? Would absolutely so. Number one thing is definitely the intrusion, Like whether you're talking out you don't talk out loud. You make sure you have everything you need for the project at hand,

and only going to that farm one time. If you forget something, you're gonna hear about it. You do not want to go in multiple times if you can help it. That is the number one thing. And again that goes back to number one with access. You know, like if you're blowing the deer out, they don't feel comfortable being in your farm, they're not gonna be there. So intrusion and access two main main things right out the get go. Yeah, I mean I just revolved back to me being in

a service. Attention to detail. Anyone who's been in the service has heard that um statement many of times. But Mark's very detailed in the way he lays things out, in the way we do the work. Too, you know, conduct that project or whatever it is we may be doing. But you know, from the littlest details of like don't mow behind the blinds of the deer, don't walk behind you, anything like that, some stuff that I did when I

first started. Better you only do it once? Yeah, exactly, so well, definitely attention to details, and that's the reason why it's so successful. While while drew the outdoors and all of us as a whole are so successful. Are there any other of these little things that stand out to like little no nos, like don't mow behind the blind or or any other details that you know most folks never think about that in your mind, are like

big flashing neon lights. Because of him, Oh, yes, we do not go on the farm if there's any if there's any risk of ruts, Like his biggest pet peeve is ruts, whether they're half inch deeper or a foot deep road. Yeah, just because our ground is so hilly here the roads and then we have to drive across it all the time and it's bumpy and and but yeah, his his deal with erosion and and you know that type of stool conservationist. It's very very high up and

one of those pet peeves. Don't drive across his yard here at his house. Something I did right off the bat I took I took a took a buggy to go check a board. We were shooting sighting a gun, and I drove the bug across the yard. He goes, don't ever do that if we don't get off the driveway. Uh, you know, it's nothing too major, but it's major to him. And you know, you know, he made those things clear right off, right off the get going. We do not

do that. And uh, we make sure anybody who's in camp knows that ahead of time to save them from the earful details details, details, details, um, you know, and and and I think that's you know, what has made Drewy Outdoor so successful is is the detail oriented a little. It's the little stuff that that you know, especially you know, on the small farms we hunt, if the neighbors intrusive, or the neighbor does something we don't, that gives us a little bit upper hand to get the deer on us.

You know. Yeah, So let's let's take that kind of detail idea and and kind of apply it to what you guys just mentioned. Is is probably the most impactful project you guys would usually work on, which is that food? Um? First, I guess when it comes like a food project and a food plot is is choosing the right location for it? And I'm always really interested. I like how you guys do a good job on a lot of these videos of showing you know where you're putting new food plots

and why you're putting them there and stuff. But I guess at a high level, when you guys are making you know, looking at the map on a farm and talking about whether it's a new farm or just a piece where you haven't worked yet, and you're trying to choose, Okay, where are we going to put the plots? Can you?

Can you guys walk me through you know what those most important criteria are to you when you're thinking through, all right, this is where we need to put it, or this is the easy spot to put one, But no, we can't do it because of X and Y. What would those things be? Well? Again, to our first statement, number one would be access. We gotta make sure we can get into these spots um without the deer no one that we're there um. And number two we always

use an outside looking in approach. We do not enter the timber. Um. You know, we may carve out a food plot, get a dozer in and do something on the edge, but we just leave the core unpenetrated. And uh, you know, so we always try and get the deer to come to us versus go in move in on the deer like. Um, those are two of the I would say the most main Yeah, for sure. I mean it all starts really at Mark's dinner table here at

the house. Myself, Wade and Mark sit down, jump on deer cast maps and and look at it from an aerial view of a map. Um first and say, okay, you know what winds can we hunt it on? Where's our access going to be? And then design the plot. And you know, going back to what Way said, most of our plots are on the edge. We don't We don't ever dive deep into a farm because if you do, your access is never never good. It's on the outside. I mean, our plots are always determined mainly on access

and wind direction that we can one. Yeah, and and so these plots are usually on the edges. They're usually you know, access related. I guess how much though, do you factor in or worry about you know, um distance to UM neighbors. So I guess what I'm trying to get at is I've always worried one of the things he worries if put food too close to a property line, too close to the edge, you risk the neighbors impacting that food source or trying to hunt. Do you're come

into it or something like that. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean we always definitely take that into consideration. Um, we try and just as being neighborly, we try and you know, stay away from the stay away from the lines. I mean, um, you know, because yeah, we've had don't want to benefit benefit of neighbor, but also sometimes you don't have the you know, on some of these smaller farms we have, we don't have the dirt to get away from him as much. Yeah, we

have to be somewhat close. And that's just kind of how it how it crumbles down, you know. So yeah, it's all farm dependent, but um, you know, again goes back to our due diligence on you know, when the neighbors hunt, what time of year, you know, if they're just gun hunting, you know, it may not be as big of an issue. Um, you know or you know, the biggest The biggest thing is no matter how close we might be to the neighbor, normally it's just an

access route down a fence line. And then we would get into our food plot where the blind is obviously faced into our ground or the tree stands face into us, you know, never we're never facing someone else's far and stuff like that. However, our neighbors can't always say the same, yeah, neighbors. But so another thing on this sorry, another question I had to related to this location thing is I've have

often seen Mark talk about trying to tuck them. You know, access is still good, but it seems like you guys tuck them up next to you know, I've heard like the Buck Hotel and stuff like that. You try to push them pretty close to these betting areas. So how important is it to be like smack dab against them versus like a transition corridor in between you and the bedding, Like how tight do you want them to be? I mean,

are are both still type spots? Um are closer to the bedding because you know, to get those mature bucks up on their feet during daylight hours, you have to be um close to that bedding and and you know Perry can hit on this subject a little bit more. But you know, if there's not betting close, we will go in and make betting, uh, you know with T s I and hinge cutting and all that that type of stuff. So we we do like to get in close to that betting. Um, but yet where our access

is still good. Right And to his point of that, like when we do T s I, if I, you know, throw my stuff on and grab my saw and just start walking to a general area we've picked out, we want to do T s I. When I get to a spot of that area, I turn around, call it hundred and fifty normally is about where it's at. We like to be off the betting. Would be like to be off the edge of the food plot to create

the betting. You know, I want to get to that spot where I can't see the field, so that way when deer bed there, they can't see us get into our blind our tree stand and come down our access. So yeah, that makes sense. Okay, Um. Now another I guess tag onto that I often think about how dear transition, you know, from betting to a food source to a next to the next food source. You know, how often are you placing food plots in such a way to be like a transition food source versus like the final

destination big food source. Like are you most of these properties? Do you try to have both or just one or the other or is it never big destination food sources now it's always little transitions Like talk to me a little bit about that. Yeah. So, um, you know, almost on all of our farms, I would say that we have both. Um, you know, like I was talking about earlier, we just plant to our position. I mean one of our farms, Um, you know what is it six acres

of egg field that we got? We had sixteen acres in this bottom field and we direct the deer right past us with walking strips. Um. You know that walking strips radish fields um out in the middle of these giant grain destination fields. So yeah, I mean some way shape or form. You know, we're we're hunting these transition areas to get them within bow range. And was granted we back off whenever we have a gun in our hands.

But yeah, I mean typically even on small farms, like say we've got they we've got three acres like a like at where mark killed this year over there and west stuff fifty acre farm or I think that, you know, we have about three two and a half three acres to work with. We have a green field that's half acre directly in front of the blind and then are surrounding it. On the rest of the field we have standing beans, so kind of a duel edge sword there.

You know, you can hunt both season early on the green and then you know, gun comes and you've got a hunter and twenty yards shot and some standing bean field that we try to keep the deer you know, destination there and you know they're transitioning to both green and grain. And then obviously some filter pass us can go out to bigger grain fields, but typically it's very dark and uh legal light has has expired by them.

So and a lot of these plots spots where we're back off of the food or back off of the cover rather um, you know, we'll go in and we'll make walking strips, uh to help guide them into our green field, like from the you know, the edge of

the timber. Again, we hunt a lot of blinds. That another thing that we get a lot of, uh, you know, a headache over everybody hates that we're in blind, but all these spots, you know, we wouldn't be you know, if we were sitting in a tree on the edge of the timber, you would hell, you would stop half your movement because your wind would have to be either blowing over the food or blowing over the cover versus getting off the backside of that that food plot and

blowing it over you know, a safe spot. So you know, sometimes we have to you know, walk them all the way through that field to get to our within bow range at a radish field or or a clover field right in front of the blind, you know, and standing

beans are standing corn elsewhere. So so speaking of that, then like these big fields versus the smaller fields, and how you get in the compast a bow spot I've seen like this example you describe where you do this kind of green and grain combo where you've got that green tight for the bowshot and then you know they

can filter out to the larger being field or whatever. Um. When it comes to size of these food sources, what's the what's the minimum and maximum size for these food plots that you guys have found to make it effective?

And are there some spots where like man we're gonna put a huge food source in, and we know this will never be a great bow spot because it's too big, and so you just kind of set up his gun or does every single food plot you guys put in has to be like, Okay, here's the bow set up, and here's the unique thing we're gonna do with the design or the you know, walking strips, and then here's the gun option. It seems like every one of our

food plots has a bow set up. You know, Like we whenever we like Perry was staying here, whenever we sat down look over deercast maps, um, you know, we figure out exactly where we need to be to be able to intercept him going to the big food. What we need to do, whether it be plant or uh you know, drive lanes through the beans or or what it may be, we always seem to have a bow spot. I think there's maybe two or three of our all of our farms that are fields that we just got

strictly gun hunt. Yeah, this year probably they're going to two or three. And even I mean even some big bean fields that we have, we just go in, set the tiller down and till up a walking strip. You know and plant green and nine times I said, may follow that path. I mean, it's a weird deal that I first saw when I started, and I was like

made a believer out of me real quick. Think something so small even you, like Harry said, if it's just a walking strip um or Grand you don't have a tiller or you don't want to play green, you know, just driving you know, your truck through. You know, Grand, you have a lease and the farmer leaves five acres of standing beans, and you drive your truck to those beans.

They're gonna walk that path, get twenty yards off that path down the middle of the field, and you know they're gonna walk that path and get within bow range. It's something so simple like that that you could turn up a five acre food plot and you know, into a blow hunting type area, have a blind out in the middle of the field and you know, drive your truck buggy forward or whatever you want, make make a

two track and they're gonna walk it. Yeah. We did it in a spot where we have a big standing grain field that's in the wide open, and then put a scrape tree where we've met our tracks together and had a cell cam on it. And it did great. I'm bucks work that scrape on in the middle of the No man's laying in the middle of the bean field, all right. So I love these I love these little tweaks that you can make to a food plot to make it hunt better. So, so one of these things

that you just mentioned is the walking strips. And so I like the idea of just driving through it if you can't, if you don't have the time or or tools or whatever to plant these strips of green, you can just drive and make a path. But then when you're doing the green strips, can you can you tell me in a little more detail how you like to do those green strips? Do you I'm assuming you you're planting your beans or I guess do you ever do this with corners? It always beans? And then what do

you usually like to plant in those strips? Now we do it. We do it with both corner beans. Um. And because the strips are so small, um, we always do something like a wheat or an oat or a combination, we oat rye um. Just because if you do we've done it, and radishes or whatever they just don't it'll end up being a dirt strip. So um, you know, we always do those something that continues to grow after

they handle the pressure. So that's what we But yeah, I mean the biggest thing is like if it's corny, you know, get a little mower in there and mow your path and then kill it up and and then hand seed it and hand fertilize it. And if it's just beans, you know, we got six foot tiller on the back of a tractor and until you a path and you know, do the same thing, hand seed and hand fertilize. I was still right through the crops, Yeah,

until right through the beans. Mm hmm. But you know, like I said, if you don't don't have that equipment, somebody, somebody could go in there with a lawnmower and you know, normally underneath that exposed dirt of a crop field, you know, there's enough dirt you could get you could get wheat notes or you know, something like that to grow even if you just top dressed on the top dress timer rain and have the rain, you know, the rain, the seed and the fertilizer in. But yeah, it's a great point.

The scrape trees, that's another thing. And I feel like I think that it was you guys and Mark and everyone who popularized that first. I mean I can't think of anyone who I remember seeing doing it before him. Um, but she've been doing you guys been doing it along to market the tree coy. Um yeah, yeah, so so it's been it's been really popularized now like almost everyone who has food plots does this. It's it's just such

a proven tactic. But but what do you guys, what are you guys doing now that it's been fine tuned? Like if anyone who's been doing this, you guys have been doing this the longest, what's the fine tuned approach to it? Now? What are the little things you guys have found that makes this more effective? Um? When it comes to the details, give me the details of how to do the scrape tree to the Mark Jurie level

of quality. In So, we we started, you know, like I said, maybe a year or two after I started, um, you know, and we just would go dig a hole with you know, post diggers and try and bury the tree. Well we figured that didn't work. Um, so then we we started coming in and literally just driving a teapost in the ground and um, wiring with some thick wire the tree right to the tea posts and that had

seemed to work the best for us. And and another thing, huge, huge uh point here that we've found by trial and air. And the best tree bar none is definitely a pin oak um Like we've tried, you know, little locust trees. We tried shingle oaks and pin oaks that hold the hold their leaves forever. I mean it, they'd be dead and still have leaves on them for months on end. But they just seemed to work. Those trees over way way better pen times better than any other three you

can find. Yeah, those are definitely the best trees. And another thing is is to make sure your limbs um are quartered to the blind uh you know, your your best scrape limbs. Sometimes we'll trim the back side of the limbs so that they can't scrape on the back side of the tree. But quarter that quarter those limbs to you so that when the deer comes to work them, you know they're quartered away to broadside for a shot

because they're on the back side of the tree. It says, you know good, I mean you can shoot them coming and go into it, but um to you know, just to tweak it to do it perfect. We always you know, put those trees out there about eighteen nineteen yards and uh and quarter those scrape limbs right towards the blind for sure. But shingle pin oak, it'll work every time. That's a trick. And do you ever do you ever

fix them up? Like I've had sometimes where a tree is lost all the sleeves before I was expecting, and I thought to myself, Man, I should go and and why are up a new branch or something? But then I worry about it. I don't want to walk out there and leave scent or anything like that. Uh. Do you ever go take a piss in the scrape or anything to freshen it up? Do you? Is there any other things you would do it in season? Or do

you absolutely leave that stuff alone? No? I mean if they break one of our limbs, will absolutely you know, cut a limb off of a off of the same type of tree and and go read it back wired back up. Um. But no, we never start the scrapes or anything like that by pissing them or or you know, we never mess with them. They just do it on their own likes right there where they scraping, and you'll never see a doer there again, I'm saying it sounds like a personal problem. Um, but if they if they

break the tree down, we'll redo it, okay, um. Camera. And another little what other little tip um that we also do is add too, you know, and make them walk between almost like a scrape line. Um. They seem to bounce back and forth for those trees. It's just like a fish to structure. And you know, kid'm walking right right there in front of the blood that give you an opportunity to shoot one broadside and you know, stop and walking you know, the main main goal. Okay,

So that that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. That kind of ties into another thing you sometimes hear folks talk about, which is some people will put a scrape tree in and then they will purposefully try to get rid of like other licking branches on the field so that the only you know, good spot first scrape would be you know, your scrape tree right within range. And then I've heard other people who like to have like as many licking branches as possible because they want,

you know, stuff to keep deer in the air. They want like time wasters so that the buck will stick around and scrape here and scrape there and scrape there and never make it to the neighbors, you know, until after dark. Um, do you guys ever worry about anything like that or or is that you know, not in

your radar? No, I mean that's that's pretty uh deep, I guess, um, but no, I mean we don't we don't go cutting any other scrape limbs down or anything like that, like kind of like you said, like I think it's it's better because whenever a bucks you know, on that that scrape run, he just he hit them all and they seemed to they seemed to hit the scrape tree and I had, yeah, and the natural on the tree line and they'll hit twenty in a row if they got them there. You know, we've never went

to set them down. So I was gonna ask them about your camera set up on the scrape trees. Now, those have been premier you know, photo ops for for you guys over the years. What's the current best set up for getting cameras and pictures on those scrape trees? Now? How do you guys like to position them? Um? And do you ever worry about those? You know, I've always worried about these cameras like on a T post or something right out in the open, like spooking some of

the deer. Do you guys worry about that at all? And I guess what are the other details for your setups on your scrapes. No, I mean, we've never really worried about that. It's kind of like blinds on our farms, and it was just like basically trees because all these deer have grown up walking past them. I mean, I would say over six of our our cameras are out in the middle, you know, on T post and and now they have no no fear of them or we've

never seen that. Um, you know, the only thing we've ever had them get very weary on has been sell cameras. I don't know if it's a click or or what it what it may be, but um, we've we've tried. But but then again, like that's only a very rare occasion. But other than that, um, we haven't really ever had any issues. Right, Normally, are cameras are on a T post out in the food plot and the scrape tree is main framed, you know, main in the center of the frame, and then we try to position them to

where if it's triggered. If a buck's there or a deer in general is there, you can see what else is out in the field. You know, get a background shot also, you know, kind of two for one if you will. Yeah, and then another another key thing when setting up cameras, a lot of people that don't realize and uh is facing it? Uh not not west, not southwest? And try and avoid even south um, just because when that dear movement time is it seems like a lot

of sun cuner. Yeah, you just get blown out or or backlit and you just can't really tell what it is. So avoid that southwest sun in the evenings. And and uh so you can face it north or or southeast um or any northerly is ideal, um because again they just you can mess up pictures in a hurry. And yeah, and we always try and like to also be on the uphill side kind of pointing downward versus it's looking up a hill. Most of the time. It gives you

that backlit view. So we always try and if you're on a hill, face it on the downhill, face it downhill. It seems to definitely help get those better quality pictures. You can add one of them. You can add one of Mark's pet tieves as a sunlit back photo on a trail camera. That be a way he put out. He's not happy about that. And the thing is that we don't The thing is we don't check those trail cameras very often now that we got selves. So you know, you wouldn't sit there for a month or so and

and all the photos are backlit. Yeah, that doesn't make a happy boss. You got to be aware where you're at. Details, details, details, yes, So so back to the food plot architecture side of things. We've talked about the scrape trees will help you get shots. We've talked about the walking strips. Um. What about actual shapes and designs of the plots? Um? I've talked or I've heard Mark talked about the past about planting to the location. I think he will say sometimes so like

pick a tree and then like design a plot around it. Um, can you talk through some of the design choices? Now? You know, it seems like a lot of guys will just make a big square or a big circle or something. But I see you guys sometimes doing horse shoes and different things like that. Um, what are some of those best designs you guys have found. Um, you know, one of the best and one that we have the most success on is that horseshoe shape. Um. And again planting

to your position. Obviously, we try and put our blind you know, at the top end of the horse shoe and uh, you know, we have a plot or a boomerang horseshoe all the same, but we have a more of a rat type plot for you know, bow season. They seem to like their ashes more during bow season. Will plant that, you know, right up close to the blind and uh, and then out on the ends we'll have you know, winter bub of sugar beets or or

clover or you know beans. Yeah. So the horseshoe is is one of our favorites just because they have to almost walk the whole plot to see what's on the other side, you know, or they'll be right in front of where they can see down both sides. Just seems like a they move through that type of plot better just because they're you know, so curious and they want to get to that point where they can see everything

that's in the field. Yeah. Are there any others that you've been using lately or that have worked well or is that now, like you're the number one. Um, you know, another really good one that that we like to do if we're just I mean, we do a lot of green fields. Um the main another main shape that we do, and that is just like a football field. So like basically if they step into your green green plot, you're

gonna get a shot. So fifty yards across fifty yards either way, and it seems to be about the right size that they won't eat it out, um, you know, and and really good size for bow honey. So those are the oh, it's two best, I would say. And always just natural structure that's on a farm, Like we plant some spots to have natural fence gaps where they've walked for years, and you know, we bring our green walking strips through that fence gap and then bringing them

past us in a blind. Um. You know, natural structure works really good to also, but you create a new plot, like you were talking about, Mark picks a tree and that's kind of the uh turning point of the horseshoe or boomerang if you will, you know, that's kind of the center of it. So you know, another thing I think I've seen a few times and I'm curious if this is something you do a lot. I've seen in some of these plots that are more of like rectangular ish.

I've seen what looks like you guys are almost building a wall or laying blowdowns in a wall kind of right near where you're blind or tree stand is and then leaving a gap. Though, So there's basically like if you imagine you have a rectangle and then if you're blind is at the fifty yard line in the middle

of the field. I've seen some plots where then on the opposite side from your fifty you'll have like a wall of trees that goes halfway across that pinches down the movement across that plot too, really close to your blinderstand? Am I seeing that? Did you guys make those? Are those just some coincidental natural structure that I'm seeing in

some of these plots? Now, we always we always use that type of stuff, um, you know, I mean we put it on on the same side as our blind as well, just again for access coming and going, because going it's just as important as coming. Um, So you can slide down behind that wall of you know, trees that you may have taken out of that plot. When you built it and uh, you know, not affects the deer that are on the plot. You just build it up high enough and and slide in, slide out without

the deer even though you're coming. And like what you were saying, the ones that are across the field, Um, same thing, just as a basically just to punch them down. You know, dear pretty easy to guide. They like the pass of least resistance, so they're gonna walk around the end of that and push them right in closer to Boe range. Yeah. Um, I'm I'm recall another These are all the little weird things I've noticed over the years.

But something that I heard maybe as you Wade talk about or someone talked about one point was thinking about where food plots will shade first, and that that sometimes impacting how you plant or where you position things. Can you can you explain that a little bit, because that's something I've never thought about before. Yeah, absolutely so. Um, if you watch a field, those deer that come out early, they always go to that shade. I don't know if

it's you know, I know why it is. It's because they feel more secure there, um in that darker part of the field. Early season, it's cooler. Um, So yeah, they'll definitely uh go to that shaded side of the field first, um, Like I said, just for out of whether it be early season, in the in the heat, they go to that shade and and they feel more secure in that. So yeah, we'll definitely try and get closer to that shady side in the field if if that's the type of plot design that, um, that we

have in that particular spot. But they definitely every single time you you watch the field, you'll see that. If people will pay attention to that, they'll definitely see with them here coming and they'll early season, we've had him run across like come out on the other side of the field, run across the sun and just stop and put their heads down right in that shape, right at the shade line. And it's funny the sun starts to fall, but you're start to ease, you know, just follow that

shade line. They'll be right on it for sure, especially early season. Yeah, earlier warm is the main main time for that. It's interesting, Um, you mentioned the when I asked you about the down tree walls and stuff like that, you mentioned how sometimes you'll put those on your side of the field to help with access. Is there anything else you guys are doing with your food plots to help you with that access and exit? You know, I've some guys will hinge cut the whole side of a

field so they can slip up behind that. Some guys do use blowdowns. I mean, if there are all sorts of different things, what do you guys usually use or or set up so you can get out of these places? I always wonder, like you guys hunt so many field edge setups and and there's always so many deer them. I'm always shocked that you guys can get in and

out without these deer catching on really quick. Yeah, for sure. Um, like this year in a big bottom we have we you know, plant plant blockers standing corn um, any kind of blocker grass if you will plant that. Also, there's some spots where we jump in creek beds and walk those all the way from the road to the ladder of the back of the blind. I mean, you know, anything that puts you your profile below. You know, eyesight is great, and the corn worked really good this year.

We haven't hadn't done that in that bottom this year and tried it to work great. Snuck into that blond a few times with deer out on the field. So um and and back to these smaller parcel farms. You know, access is key key because coming in, going because you know, if you only have one small farm and you're you got the right wind, you know, say two nights, three nights in a row, you're gonna want to go back in there the next night. But you know by night too.

If you blow that field off the second night in a row on your exit, you know they're gonna those mature bucks are are gonna you know, it's gonna start affecting them. So if you can get in and out of your blind without the deer knowing that you're there, like I said, X is just as key as entrance. So if you can get out of there without them even know when you're there, you're gonna be able to hunt those small farms, uh, you know, and not have

to give them such a break. Because if the deer don't know you're there, you know, and your winds perfect, your access perfect, you know, you'll be able to come and go as you please. So that's why we do on some of these smaller farms, you know, try and make access number one. Yeah, more number one. Even when we get out of the blind, like you know, you just get a flash flight out of your pack and you know, get a light out so they don't associate with your wind or your scent when you get out

of the blond. I mean we even out screech at him something natural to get them to bump off the field, not just walked out, not just some guy climbing out of belind you know. Yeah, yeah, those are always stressful moments when you think you've got it cleared and you finally slip out of the tree and then something blows right behind you or something. But yeah, we've all been there. Um, another kind of large topic that we probably don't have

time to get into the real details of it. But it's also something that's been covered a thousand times, and that's you know, making decisions about what to plant and and that's very situation dependent and location dependent, soil quality dependent, all that kind of stuff. Um. But I but I have noticed something, and I'm curious if this is true or if it's just something that I've am mistakenly picking

up on. I've it seems like rarely do I ever see a food plot that you guys have planted this just one thing anymore, like it's very rarely just like us just an oat plot. It's usually like a combination of something like a like a radish plot here in the corner by your stand, and then it transitions to something else, and then it transitions to something else. Do you is that the case? Do you guys always layer

different things in each plot now? Or if if so, why and if not, you know, describe the situations when you would Yeah, no, I mean I would say that that is the case on on a lot of our fields. And and again that's just the whole soul purpose for

that is is hunting different times of the year. You know, we plant the products that they prefer late um, whether it be grain or bolts or or Braska's um out of the distance when we would most likely be hunting with a gun, and then up close you know we have the clover or ad is something that they prefer um early season, uh, you know until that post rut time. You know, it seems like they really prefer those earlier.

So just plant basically on top time of year that we're trying to hunt that particular field, if there's a particular target there. Um, when we want to try and target him based on history with him when he shows up, uh, so on and so forth. So it just kind of determine what dear we're targeting. Um, and then we almost sometimes will even plant for a particular dear of what he had preferred the year before winning showed up when we think we could kill him, um, stuff like that.

So but yeah, I know that's that is correct. We do layer uh for that purpose. Basically because most of our fields, we have to plan them big enough that you know that they'll make. So therefore, to get him within bow range, we have to plan a product that they prefer during both seasons. Yeah, what what do you guys feel like? This is kind of going back to

where we start a little bit. But Um, as far as like the size of one of these things to actually make a difference, do you guys have a minimum size food plot that you guys have found only if it's less than this size that it really doesn't do much for us? Um? Is that is that a thing in your mind? Or or will you do a half acre food plot if it's in the right place, because it's it's still got some power at that size. I would say for sure, we will do a half acre.

We've got some half half acre green fields, but they're tucked into a bean field or cornfield that's carved out. Um, so there's more acres there for them to eat, I mean. And also I think a lot of that depends on your deer density, you know, across the Midwest, whether it's you in Michigan or you know, somewhere else in the Midwest and in the South, like there might be places where you only see five six deer at night. We're up here, Uh, there's so much habitat and the deer

density is so high. We have to make that food plot means something to them, not only from a drawing standpoint to draw them in to get them to come

feed there, but also yeah, sustainable. They're going to be able to feed on it for a month, two months, you know in a lot of these places you see, so you gotta have you gotta have some acres to sustain those mouths that or or just something that that regrows re regenerate clover or wheat, right, I know, that type of grain, especially the walking strips, like they're so

small and they work so good. That's why we always go with you know, winter grass or you know, wheat rise something something that keeps growing even though they nip it off. Okay, So last food question, which is related to a challenge. I know you guys felt this year. A lot of people felt this year. I did, um, and over a lot of recent years, which is drought. You know, planting a food plot in August and then you know, the rain that was supposed to come doesn't

come and you get a failure or some kind. What have you guys learned over these recent years as far as dealing with that and how can you recover? You know, I used to think, like I plant something a drought can aman, it was really crappy, and then I was kylie, well I'm doomed. Um And I've been trying later plantings and subsequent second or third seatings and different stuff like that. What have you guys found has helped you deal with

that situation best? Well, we'll we'll say that all of our green fields were doomed to pitch year we plant. I think every single green sil we went across, we

replanted it three times. Um. You know, obviously the last planting did the best, and and sometimes the second planting did all right, Um, but you know we uh we have a trailer with six fifty gallon water tank on it that uh you know again we target key bucks and uh plus that we're wanting to try and kill them on and we'll go in, we'll fence off those plots and we'll water it. One of our one of our best fields this year. We fenced it off right after it was planted, didn't even let it get up,

and Perry mostly Perry uh watered it. You know, he'd put an enter rain on it once a week and uh it turned out to be one of our our best plots. And catch an enter rain across an acre. What is add some thousand gallons? I think, well, that's totally I had my anomical amount. Yeah, I watered four or five key plots this summer during the drought, and I had over a hundred forty thousand gallons of water put down. I believe it's is a rounded number. It was.

It was in that hundred fifty thousand range. What we watered this year. It was. It was insane. And so about eight takes about eight takes a day, um I would do. And we have a sixteen hundred gallon tank. That's bolted to a trailer with a pump, so siyeh, about sixteen thousand gallons a day and I did that for a few weeks. Isn't that crazy? It's crazy how much work that is to do manually and mother nature

just does it so easily. On it soon one one hour could save a week worth of work, you know, crazy, Yeah, I mean we we talked about that all the time of of how I was like, dang it, one one half inch rain would would save us a week's worth of work of solid work, you know, solid watering. Yeah, um, that's wild. And so how how did that pay off for you guys? Did those four or five key food plots end up being worth it? Yeah? Absolutely? Yeah. I mean we definitely had some fresh green to hunt over.

Most all of our third planning stuff have been planned all the way into October. Um, the first part of October, I think we were planning wet wheat notes and we got those October rains and it actually did all right. But that was our saving grace, that third planting that we we went in and drilled. But but yeah, those those ones that he watered, um, we're definitely key spots because there was zero green anywhere. So we did have some key spots to two hunts, but it's it's hard

to to grab all of them. You just have to pick your key one key plots and and uh focus on those. That's all you could do. So so back to that third planning, would you guys say that you know, doing that late September or early October planting of some kind of cereal grain, You know, it sounds like that was still worth it. You got enough growth out of it that it actually helped and the the late the late activity didn't hurt you too much. Um No, I

mean it it definitely definitely helped us for UM. You know, as mild as this as this um winter was, you know, they always come back to green really really heavy right after the rut. And uh, those were some of our best plots with those you know, wheaten cereal grain plots that we planted in late September early October. So yeah, I mean it definitely definitely made a huge change because again there was no green anywhere else. No one else could get any green to grow um because again they

would give up after about the second planning. Um, you know, so it did, it definitely did pay off. But we went over those fields so many times countless hours, um all you know, all for this season. And again that's stuff. Those weeks worth of watering, you know, just NonStop watering for eight ten hours a day. Um, you know those three times across this field. As the things that a lot of people don't see and scratch their head when we're succeeding. Um, you know, it's just the man hours

that we put to to make everything go around. You know. Yeah, yeah, that's that's definitely an investment for sure. Um. So I want to talk to you Perry about a specialty of yours, um, shifting gears here a little bit. Since we've I've I've somehow sucked an hour of your time already just talking about food. Um, you guys both talked about and uh and cover is you know, something sometimes that you're naturally blessed with on a property and sometimes you have to

create it. Um when it comes to creating new bedding cover or putting it in the places you want. You mentioned something really interesting, which is that you go out there with the chainsaw and you're gonna you know, walk into the timber until you know you're at least a hundred hundred fifty yards away from that food, so you

can you know, access without spooking deer off the bedding. Um. Can you can you share any other specific detail type things you're thinking about when you go and try to create these betting or better cover pockets with the chainsaw? What are some of the other things that you're thinking about when you're out there doing it, Whether it's the locations, the size of these patches that you're cutting, um, any

other decisions you're making out there. Yeah, for sure. I mean Mark doesn't want his entire timber looking like a dead fall. Um. You know, it's underbrush everywhere, so we kind of pocket it. We make you know, we make little homes for the deer if you will. Um, you get that distance that we talked about earlier, you get to that spot and you look around and uh, in March timber, I pretty much cut everything except oaks and

walnuts that that's uh cleared by him. I mean, I'm not gonna say that everybody needs to do that, but we pretty much take every tree we don't want besides those two species, and we make a you know, whether it's an eighty by eighty yard or fifty by fifty yard shape or area, and we we drop all the trees in that area. We might not drop them all, we might ring some just to have some dead stands

and to get the sunlight to the floor. And we do this in areas that we you know, on fifty acre piece or mark killed his big deer this year. Um it was wide open timber, a lot a lot of hickories, younger eighteen inch type pickeries that, and and and a few oaks scattered in and out of there, but mainly hickories which have very little um, you know, food and Wildlife specifies for deer at least values. So went in there and did some pretty extensive t s. I in in a big area about a hundred yards

from that plot. And this year, I mean we held in that it's probably forty acres of timber. In that timber. We held more deer in there this year than probably ever hasn't an entire its entire life because you could see from one end to the other and now you currently cannot. So h when do you, yeah, when do you choose to do the ringing versus completely falling the tree? Is it? Do you all? Do you prefer to do?

Bring the whole thing in the ground most of the time because it gets you that ground level cover plus the sunlight or or how do you make that decision between the two different applicate or ways to do it. Yeah, I mean I would say I would say I'm probably seventy bringing it down ringing. Um, we've got some leases that people allowed us to do T s I. But they don't want a big mess. And so in that case we you know, ring more to let them, let them stand dead, but you still get that sunlight to

the floor of the forest. Um, if I'm creating, you know, if it's a smaller farm where say I'm creating an eight by eight h pocket of T S I, I'm gonna bring a lot down because in that small pocket of timber, you're gonna want as much four cover as possible. You know, you're gonna want as many canopies you can get on the on the ground. Yeah. What about hine cutting?

Do you guy ever do that? Certainly? Um, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that it's safe where your where your gear and you know, protect yourself and be smarter where you do it and where you cut the tree. Um, but get a tree to lay on the ground and continue to produce foliage. Um, you gotta you gotta hinge cut it. There's not a whole lot other ways to get it there. And do you do that in a similar kind of pocket kind of design

like you're doing with your general t s as well? Correct? Yes, Now, another betting area I see you guys hunting around a lot is some kind of grass. I see some some pretty extensive use of some kind of native grasses. I'm assuming on a variety of your farms. What do you do you ever plant grass specifically for betting or is it more often like transition from timber to food. I think I've seen both with you guys. But how do you guys usually at grasses? And what's what are you

guys using for? And how you know we do Mark? One of Mark's first farms up here in Iowa was basically cattle cattle pasture with a giant drawl um down through the middle with a bunch of fingers off of it. And uh, like I said, it was grazed by cattle

for years. It was three inch tall grass and uh, you know he came in this was before my time, but he came in planted warm seas and grasses throughout the whole thing and rolled it in CRP and turned it into possibly one of the best farms in southern Iowa. That literally was just a growing up cattle pasture and mostly the grass served as a buffer, uh to make those draws that much more appealing it, you know, and give them that much more security cover more so than

than the betting. I mean, they do bet out in the grass, um, but I would say it's it's definitely more of a buffer to make the draws in the timber that much more appealing to the year and access, you know, getting getting around left farm, getting from spot to spot. So um, they do bet at it, but I would say it's more of a transition buffer or safety uh type thing for them. And you know, we we do a mix of of big blue, little blue uh cave and rock switch um and some some different

Indian grasses. And the reason that we do the mixture is because it it gives the diversity and the heights um you're anywhere from you know, three ft or you know, need a mid thigh all the way up to eight nine ft tall grasses and and those uh pockets of that shorter grass allows the deer to to walk through. You know, if you do solid cave and rock switch, you know, that stuff gets so thick that you know, a deer can't even hardly walk through it or walk

through it comfortably. So, um, we do it, you know, with that, with that mixture of different heights of grass, and uh, you know you could you could turn a cattle farm into a really good deer farm with you know, all that extra cover of the grass and then you a little bit of T. S I and the and the draws and stuff. Um, but yeah, it's it's more of a buffer on our stuff than than it is

for actual betting. Okay, okay, is there anything else you guys are doing when it comes to that cover side of the equation, Any other tricks up your sleeve or projects that you work on many years that that help on that side of things outside of grasses and doing some T s I. No, not something, Hey do you think anything? And I mean those are the two the two main things that we do to improve improved cover. Yeah, I mean burns you know normally on grasses. So yeah,

we do burn our timbers some as well. Um, especially you have to watch your your t s I areas because you burn all your your cover there, so you kind of got to go around and and you know, make fire lines and stuff around your t S side so that doesn't burn up. But we'll run a fire

through our timber and bring on that new growth. And uh, you know, particularly right after you know the spring, the springtime, right after we do ring a bunch of trees and open up that soil so that sunlight from those trees that are wrong can shine through and turn it into a jungle. Wow. So what would be you know, with you if you were to set off on your own.

Let's say you guys are now both you've got a little nest egg from all your hard work, You've got a little money, you bought your own little farm, and you somehow have enough time to do your own work for a little bit. But Mark says, you can't use any of my equipment. You can't you can't use my big water tank, you can't take my tractor. You know, man up, boys and do it on your own. Figure

it out. And so now you're on a tight budget and you've got limited equipment, and your first farm is a little forty acre piece or something, and you, you know, you had to get started with with a little bit more limited resources and stuff like that. What would be one thing you've learned from all your time here with Mark? What's one project or one thing you've learned that you would try to apply on a budget to improve your

first farm. I don't know if something comes to mind, but if you you know, if it's if it's a food plot, you're gonna plan, how do you think you can do it on a budget with with limited equipment? If instead you're like, man, I'm gonna do this other kind of project, you know, how could you do something on tight time type budget in a small place? Um? What would that one thing that comes to mind for you first? Perry be, I was gonna let Wade go first, But I can tell you mine. I mean, I kind

of I kind of got this. My dad and I have eight acres together in northern Missouri. Um, we don't we don't have a lot of money to do much of anything really, but this year I'm gonna frosteed almost three and a half acres of clover and uh, I bought a hundred dollar box line and redid it. So I got a box line and I'm gonna have a huge clover field. So um, that's that's me. Really, I don't have a big green food source, You're gonna have

a lot of deer that use it. I mean, clover is one of the cheapest, easiest food plots you can do, and I mean the palllability is amazing. We've killed a lot of deer on clover and uh cheap box line and hold a little bit of cent in you know, get that upper hand on them. But that would be mine. Is is a clover field and a and a good box line. I like it. What about you, Wade? Yeah, I was kind of gonna go down the same path

as Perry. Uh in the fact of you know, putting in you know, hopefully you have a little bit of cover on that farm already that you can improve by. You know, most everybody owns a chainsaw, a little bit of t s I to picking it up and hold deer and then uh, you know, go in with a more you know, your lawn mowre and uh mow at all, mow down an area for a little food plot and uh you know, then go in and and burn that that area off. And then you know, if you don't

have a drill or anything like that. You could you know, burn it and then top dress your clover and maybe roll it in with a cultpack. You can go rent you know, behind a four wheeler or truck even and uh but clovers, like Perry was saying, it's just so im palatable to them. It's really easy to get to grow because it's such a small seed, and uh, it's pretty low maintenance overall. You know, you could take your your house lawn more and mow the weeds out of it.

You could spray it with a backpack sprayer, and uh it keeps regenerating, so you don't have to have a giant food plot. You know, you could have a you know, a half acre food plot and and be able to hand spray or four wheel or spray it and uh not need all the equipment. But you know, clovers, like I said, it's pretty pretty easy to grow and fairly cheap and easy to maintain and keeps growing here after year.

So I mean, if you just frost seed it and you know, February every year and keep the grass and weeds off it with spray, you'll have a food plut there every year with low maintenance and low cost yeah, I mean plant food and t s I would be the two things that about anybody could do. Even if you go to your you know, a little rental place, they can about rent you a pull behind disc if you want to do that, or you know, it's not that expensive to to rent stuff. You don't have to

own everything, but you can definitely rent stuff that. You know, you can even pull one of those behind your truck. Everybody has a truck, so um, you know, just small things like that. It's easy to do with just house household stuff. I mean, heck, whenever I was whenever I was in high school, my grandpa he owned an eighty acre farm, and uh my dad and I were out there with with rakes and weed eaters and we were,

you know, a raking. I mean, it wasn't a big plot at all, but we got we got a greenfield to grow by you know t S I and you know some of that timber where the light would get down into it. We were right on the edge of the timber because he had a crop field, so we had to go right on the edge of the timber and we went in and uh wrung those trees where the light would get down to the plot and we use all the weeks that grew in the timber and raked all the leaves out of there, and and got

that seat down and raked it all in. It was a lot of handwork, but we had a small little greenfield to hunt over, so it could be done. Um, you know, it takes a little time and a little bit of effort and uh, but you could have have a little plot to hunt over for sure. But definitely food always helps. Yeah, hard to argue with that. So I want to I want to let you guys go so you can get your stuff together and getting ready

to go coy out hunting to night. But one last question, which is that I'm curious as you look forward to this new year, and I'm sure you guys have already been thinking about this. I gotta believe that Mark's already staying up late at night, not sleeping, thinking about the one buck or the two big bucks or whatever dear he's hoping him praying will survive and make it to

next year. I'm wondering, if you have a buck like that in mind already, what do you think the most important habitat project is going to be for you guys to help you kill whatever that one or two or whatever these target bucks are that you're really hoping they're gonna blow and survive next year. Is there one project that comes to mind that you guys are thinking, like, man, there's probably buck a and there's this little food plot

that I know we gotta fix up. Or is there anything that you guys can think of off the top of your minds that you know you're really gonna have to nail this year. You know. The main thing is, like all of our stuff is pretty dialed. I mean, we haven't really gotten any new farms over the last couple of years, so everything's pretty dialed in from that standpoint. So, I mean the main thing that we got to focus on is just making sure we have good food plots.

We get them in with the timely rain, we make sure they're prepps perfect, um, you know, just so we have the food that we need to sustain us all year to to be able to kill that deer. I mean, that's our number one thing. So I said, we've got everything pretty well dialed from the point of like improvements. I mean, yeah, we just picked up a new lease. Um, it's kind of uh, it'll be a project Farm if

you will. We got clearance from the CRP program to do you know big Greenfield, Big Greenfield that's kind of out away from uh some huge cover. I mean there's some good cover on it, but it'll be interesting to see what bucks we hold from summer to winter because we don't have a pile of cover. We got some so there'll be a nice project farm. I think we're gonna dial it up real nice and I look forward

to to seeing what it produces. Well, I think you know, everybody should know to be checking out dear cast and I'll be checking out the YouTube channel uh to to follow on these kinds of things. But is there anything specific you want to send folks to to check out or for us to be keeping an eye out anything new we should be keeping an eye out for this year when it comes to content or anything else. Or

should we just stay tuned and keep on falling along. Yeah, I mean, deer cast is are our main outlet for all of our new stuff. I mean, you know, you get in the now content right there. Um. With Turkey season coming up, we'll be doing doing all the Lives again and and having a Turkey Season twenty three where you know they could watch all of our turkey kills right there, you know, within a day or so of us killing. So we're gonna get that instant, instant gratification.

So just stay tuned to deer Cast and and the feed there and um, best of luck to everybody this spring and uh and and working towards that that fall. Yeah, we're ready turkey and be where we're coming for you. Well, hey, guys, I appreciate you taking time and do this. I know that this this slight slowdown is um time that you cherish, I'm sure, so thanks for sharing a little bit of that time with me and talking habitant. This has been fun.

Absolutely appreciate it, Mark anytime, man, all right, and that's a rap. Thank you all for joining me. Like I said, be sure to check out what they've got going on over on deer Cast. Big thanks to Wade, Perry, Mark and the whole team. Um. I've appreciated what they've shared with the world for many years and with their generous you know the fact that they're always willing to chat with me and chat with us here at the podcast, I certainly have learned a lot and uh, I think

a lot of you have too. So thanks gentlemen, thank you all for listening. It's time to start getting back to work. If we've had a little break from deer, now it's time to dive back in. We have work

to do out in the property. If you own land or lease land, or have access to something with a buddy who does have the ability to do improvements, it's a great time to get out there, do some work, have fun with it, and invest in your future now by doing this work, and help all the critters that live out there too, So so win win in my book. So thanks all, appreciate you, and until next time, stay wired to HU