Ep. 576: Exploring The Myths Around Quality Deer Ground and Overall Hunter Effort with Nathan Mrnak:

of Mark Kenyon. Mark was actually supposed to record an episode this week, but he got a lead on a vintage Jurassic Park try Sarah tops toy and he is on a mission to buy it to complete his collection. Now, I know you might think this is a joke, but it's actually not. Mark had an unfortunate incident in third grade where he didn't get that toy for Christmas and it has haunted him ever since. Feel free to ask

him about it. This is all true. So anyway, hopefully he'll get that squared away so he can come back and do his job, but for now you have me. So all right. We've listened to Andy May, Mike Stroff and Zach Ferrenbaugh the last three weeks talk about big bucks and how we often give them too much credit. Today I'm wrapping up this rabbits with Antler's month with a guy named Nathan Murnach who is an absolute white

tail killer. Murnach started out as a police officer before joining Cabella's for a decade, and now he works as the CEO of Base Camp Leasing, which is a service that facilitates leasing opportunities for white tails across the country, but also handles real estate for folks who are looking

to buy their own dear ground. This is a really interesting perspective we don't off and hear from on this podcast, and I'm telling you, not only does Nathan offer up plenty of good information on how to get yourself onto some solid deer ground, but also how to hunt it correctly, whether you're really on premo dirt or on public land. I had a blast talking to him and I think you're gonna love what he has to say. Nate, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing real good, Tony, real good.

It is a pleasure to get to speak with you. Man. We haven't we haven't connected in a while. I miss you, Buddy. I miss you too, man. We had some good times, didn't we? We did we. Uh, we chased some turkeys down there in Missouri a few years ago and uh, we've talked a lot about deer and I actually I met you working on a book for Tom Miranda a million years ago and we just hit it off and I just remember thinking, you know, this is this is

a dude that understands white tales. I could talking to you and then getting to getting to spend some time with you on your property in Missouri. They're just seeing how you had it set up and here in your stories about hunting there for yourself and with your daughters. It was like this guy, he just gets it. Like there's there's certain people you meet who you can just tell understand white tales on a really deep level, and

I put you in that category. Man. Oh that's that's a humbling, humbling statement to hear, I can tell you, especially coming from me, Tony. I really appreciate that. So I wanted to talk to you and wrap up this rabbits with Antler's month, because you you come at this from a different perspective. You know, we had Andy and Zach on talking public and then we had Mike Straf

on talking about his perspective as an outfitter. But you're a guy who started out at Cabella's and now you work for base camp leasing as a CEO there, and you you kind of work in this space of buying hunting land and leasing hunting land and man, I gotta imagine that's just burning so hot right now. It is,

absolutely has been. It hasn't slowed down in at least but in the last two years, with all the distry actions we've had out there, the demand's only gotten higher and properties changing a lot of hands out there on the real estate side and on the leasing side. Boy, if we've got a good property out there, it does

not last long. Yeah, I bet, I bet. I want to talk about that, but let's talk first about how did you get to the point, because you had a really cool property there in Missouri, uh, that you that you bought and you you developed and you've you've sold since then. You sold a couple of years ago. But how did you settle on that property first? Ah, you know, really it was the area. It actually was in Mercer County, kind of the North Central Missouri. I knew I wanted

to be around that area. I've been hunting just south of there actually, um about gosh, I don't know his Sullivan County, but the half hour from that property for several years and I had always go up to Mercer Tony and around Princeton and have supper and all that stuff. And boy, I'd see these big bucks be pulling in all the time on these guys trailers in the back of these trucks and it was pretty amazing to see all those successful hunters and I thought, well, this area

is pretty special. And so that specific property, I will tell you it was. The eighty acres was the first piece at Boughton and I acquired another thirty acres a year later right alongside of it. But it was all Tony. It came down to all about access on how that property laid out, how I thought that I could I could get in there and and yeah, go, you know, enter and exit from the stand locations without really putting

pressure on that property. Yeah, so you you kind of read the area and you know this is probably being a little facetious, but it really seems like there are places out there that are are like Iowa, two point oh or kind of Iowa Jr, you might say, and you know I I'm hunting a property in southwestern Wisconsin along the river in the bluff country there, and it's you know, I can look and see Iowa across the river and when you drive around there in the evenings

and looking bean fields, you feel like you're in Iowa. It's it's different, you know, the season structure and some of the pressure and stuff, but you know you can get pretty close and that area that you were hunting in in Missouri. You know it's Missouri, so it's not Iowa, but man, you're you're bumping up on the kind of

hunting that you can find sometimes in Iowa. Absolutely absolutely, and I can tell you one of the biggest selling points for me was before I even purchased the property, I tried to meet the neighbors and and understand, you know, how how they hunted, got to know them a little bit more and where they were at and in what I call that, you know, your typical hunter's journey. Um, you know, are there a bunch of young guys and gals out there that are shooting everything, or do they

have management practices in place? All those things factored into that property that is knowing, you know, if I put the time and effort in and did the right things out there from an habitat perspective, that I could, you know,

contribute with my neighbor in producing some pretty good white tales. Yeah, and that at that point you really can't make that enough because even though you know you're talking about it from the perspective of, you know, being a potential land buyer, you know with with the interest of just, you know, having a good place to hunt, but really, when you're talking about keeping bucks dumb or keeping Bucks killable and not nocturnal and the whole thing, what's going on around

you is as important as what you're doing. Yes, so how did you manage to do that though? How did you manage to just did you go on on x and look up everybody around here? What did you do

to to end up meeting the neighbors? I did, and actually, Um, there's UH, one of the gentlemen actually lived in Kansas City, so he was hard to connect with that first, but then I found where he stayed around there when he hunted the property and were we were able to connect and before too long, Tony, I can tell you we were sharing Um, Troi cam photos of historic trail camp photos that he had and I could tell he was feeling me out a little bit as well, just trying

to understand what my approach was. Um, at that time, you know, I had two young daughters that hunted with me and for them I just wanted them to have a great experience. It wasn't always about shooting a mature animal, but he understood how, you know, I would approach that property and and if they did shoot a smaller one or something like that. For the first year he was totally happy with it, but he knew I wasn't putting on, you know, UN needed pressure on that property as well. Sure,

and I knew the same thing from him. Yeah, I mean, that's him. That's really important. So would you say, well, I got two things for you here. So you must be like a trust fund kid or you must have inherited a ton of money to buy that land. No, no, no, my goodness. I'll tell you what, if you knew my humble beginnings in northern Minnesota, our Fraser was constantly full while game, because that's how we survived. Absolutely not. It's

hard work, you know. Twelve years at CABELA's. I was a police officer even before then, but just putting in the time, saving up. It always been my lifelong dream to own my own eighty acres. I don't know why eighty acres always stuck with me, but it did, and boy it took me some time. You know, I went through that journey knock and talk and getting permission Tony to leasing, being able to afford to lease a property

and then, you know, own a piece of property. That's that's I think a lot of people can relate to that journey. Yeah, and that, you know, you remind me because people here, you know, they'll hear, oh, he bought eighty acres and another thirty acres in a sweet county in Missouri right along the Iowa border, and people just assume, you know, that we're talking to somebody who came from money or you know there's something going on there. And this the same thing happens to my buddy the land.

I was just mentioning that I'm hunting in southwestern Wisconsin. He told me because I met this this friend of mine fishing tournaments when I was like twenty and we just we hit it off. We love to hunt, we love to fish and so we fished together for a long time and they started hunting together and he told me after he bought this property, he bought ninety acres there. He said when he got his first job, which he

still works at. He's worked his way up at this insurance company, he said he wrote down his goals and one of them was to buy eighty acres somewhere that would be just like that he would want to hunt and that his future kids would have a place to hunt. And it took him, you know, twenty years to get there, but it was always a goal of his. That's correct. Yeah, now I can relate to that for sure. And and you know, thank goodness I have such a supporting wife.

You know, she we didn't have a house on the hill in Sydney Nebraska when we bought that property. I mean, if you've been to Sydney Nebraska before the corporate office or the former corporate office of Cabella's, you can see all these very nice houses. And now we bought a foreclosure man down by the railroad tracks and uh, you know, she supported me in my effort to continue to save

up to buy that property. So we went out without, you know, some things as a family, but at the end of the day, those experiences we had out there as a family. You know me and my daughters, and you can't put a price tag on that. Brother. Yeah, how long were you a police officer? Four years. That was enough. That was enough time. That was enough. That was in Appleton, Wisconsin. I was surrounded by great men and women at that department. Yeah, and then, and then,

how long did you work for CABELA's? Twelve years, twelve years, and then we were bought out by my division. CABELLA's outdoor adventures was brought out by worldwide Trophy Adventures and Um, I knew with that transition with bass pro shops that that town may may lose a lot of folks and I figured it was time to move on and find a different career and think, goodness, Steve Man at base camp police and give me a shot. And it's been outstanding since two thousand and eighteen. I love it here.

And when you when you were a police officer in Wisconsin, weren't you hunting a bunch of public land? And Northern Wisconsin at that point was yes, and ago, all the way I mean north, in any any place where I could get away from people. That's I really cut my teeth up there on public land. And you know, being from northern Minnesota, Tony, you know there's a lot of

public land up there too. I mean we we went out and hung sets on and you know how many thousands and thousands of forest land they have up there. and to find the right trail to sit on that night, because you're not hunting over agriculture or anything like that. It's your your hardwoods or or your typical northern Minnesota deer hunt. You know. Well, yeah, I mean really, we we look for all these ways to, you know, bring the deer down to our level and, you know, trick them.

But I always say you know, if you if you can go to the big woods, and I'm positive this applies to a lot of southern hunters in some of the big woods down south too, if you can, you know, consistently get on deer and, you know, any level of decent buck in those situations, especially on public land, I think you can go most places and the deer are going to seem, you know, maybe not dumb to you, but just easier to figure out correct. I couldn't agree more.

I mean growing up, growing up in northern Minnesota. Tony, I can't remember. I don't know if you remember this, but you used to have to put in for a dough tag. You know, it was tough, tough hunting grown up, but it just be able to passion even more. Yeah, it's that those I think hunting some starvation spots like that really they kind of they kind of like center your focus a little bit and you go okay, like I would love to have a more fun, more enjoyable hunt.

And when you do that stuff, it's not like it's not fun, but it's a different kind of thing to be in such a low dear density spot where you're just, you know, you're kind of really working in the moment, like you said, you know, find a trail or find something, but it's not like it's not like you can say I know dear are going to bed there and they're gonna go to that field or or at the very least I know I know dear going to end up in this food source up there in that bigwood situation.

It's such a different deal. It's totally different. You're looking for transitions and just the most minor things that you can capitalize on. The topography of the property or transitions within the woods between hard woods and Um, you know, your poplar trees and all that stuff up there. I mean you're you'll find it, you just you've got to

put on a little bit more time. I think. Yeah, I really think, and I know you've done this quite a bit, when I am working on big woods deer, I feel like I'm elk hunting, where most of my goal is to find a concentration of animals and when I do that I have this little window of time where I can work them and either I'm gonna blow them out or they're gonna move or I'm gonna run out of time or something. But you're like the you know when you when you're hunting, you know I will Illinois,

something like that. You're like, I know there's a ton of deer here if I can see trees, like I know there's deer there, but when you get up into that north woods or those big wood situations, you're like, I gotta just find some deer first, right. Yes, yea. The last experience I had of something like that, Tony,

was I actually made a trip to northeast Washington. I believe I was probably maybe ten miles south of the British Columbia border, up there in the in the dead of winter and December, hunting with the bow like an idiot, you know who, using my climber to get up there and it was humbling. It's the first time I ever hunted in the mountains for a white tail. But I

missed that challenge. I hate to say it. You know, I feel a little bit more spoiled now that I've hunted in Nebraska and in Iowa, Wisconsin a little bit now Indiana. Um It all for me, Tony, and I was has come down to in order to kill a big buck, you should be hunting where there's big bucks, right and your opportunities in northern Minnesota and, let's say, northeast Washington. For me it was a little bit different tactic. Uh, I want to talk about that, but I want to

back up a second. How does anyone end up going from where you were to Washington for a late season hunt like that? Just the challenge, Tony. I've since I was probably fifteen years old, I've wanted to shoot, you know, an antlered white tale in every state possible and through research. This could be wrong, but I think I found that there's forty four states that hold white tales, and so my quest before I kicked the bucket here is I would love to shoot, you know, White Tail Buck with

my bow and every state possible. And that one came up that year. I had time off and made the drive and went up there and made it happen. It wasn't the biggest buck in my life, but I can tell you through the experience it was probably one of the most special besides the deer that my my daughters have harvested. How did you find a buck out there

in Washington? What was the strategy? Oh boy, Um, honestly, Tony, is probably more luck than anything, but I can tell you, pulling out your map and if you've got a favorite hunting map app out there, that they're so valuable because you can do scouting from a thousand foot view and really narrow down your focus on where you need to go at seven days to get it done. I knew

there was a lot of snow on the ground. Um, so I focused on where I thought I needed to be first and then I let the sign tell me exactly where I needed to hang with all that snow on the ground. Interesting what level. I guess I should say this. How many states do you have left to kill an Antler Buck in? Oh Boy, I'm pretty sure I'm at twenty three states right now. So what would

that be? I mean, not, not too far. I'm forty five years old, so I've got, you know, almost twenty more to go, I guess you boy, you broke through the halfway point. That's right. That's right. Did you do you find? Because that sounds like a sort of a young man's goal. That sounds like somebody who's, you know, like really getting after it and and has the bug. But it also sounds like a goal that would sort of get put on the back burner when you have

kids and now your your focus has changed a little bit. Yes, yeah, and then if you buy your own property, you tend to start thinking about all the efforts and all the work you put out there and and it's harder to get away. Um, I think that's one of the opportunities here. Actually working for at Leasing Company, I get to see all these great properties come in and, contrary to belief, I don't get first pick. They always go out to

our our memberships first. But if I do see one on there and I'm a member as well and I can get it. I can get it, so it's that's kind of helped out a little bit. Yeah, and so do you? Do you focus more of your efforts, because you you're you're a guy who's traveled a lot for hunting opportunities. Do you focus more of your efforts now, with the girls at the age they are, by staying closer to home? Absolutely, you know, you only have your kids for a short period of time in this life

at home and cherish you every moment with them. So when they're when they're able and willing to go out with me, I I do. And do you learn? Because I've been talking about this and writing about this quite a bit lately because something that happened to me that I just didn't see coming was, you know, I've I've got a couple of little properties in northern Wisconsin that I bought, you know, within the last decade, and I don't really like hunting them myself that much. I kind

of I really like working on them. I like working on little food plots and, you know, planting apple trees and all that stuff. I love taking my daughters there and one thing that I just like has hit me so hard is how much I learned about hunting by having to take somebody who doesn't really know a lot about hunting. Yeah, that is so, so true. Uh. One I think a lot of times you start talking to them about the basics, right, and I think we there's all these gidgets and gadgets and you name it out

there for US hunters to the next best thing. But you start walking out there with somebody who's got fresh eyes and you're teaching them about sign and why you're sitting up where you're sitting, and it's just the pure basics of hunting and I think you learn from it, but you also remember a lot of things you probably discount nowadays. Yea, well, that's that's one thing that hit me was, you know, when you when you have enough experience and you walk into the woods, you I don't

know what you're doing. You're just like I'm looking for this, I'm going to sit this, or you just it's pretty easy to figure out how to like always at least feel like you're keeping yourself in the game. But when you have to take somebody who's new to this and not only, like you said, explain it, but but put them in a position where it's like I gotta get a deer within twenty yards of them broadside, and and

we have to really do this together. Even though you know you're the one kind of driving the ship, you're still like, you know, if they move or they're in a situation where they're they're gonna maybe get busted. You, you're like, you have to think about all that stuff and man it. I feel like my setups for my daughters and and that process is helping me become a better hunter in ways I just did not see coming, no doubt, no doubt. And there's no better moments out

there than with your own kids, you know. Oh yeah, it's it's pretty Badass, man, and it's it's something. You know. There's probably a bunch of youngsters listening to this who are like maybe can't really relate to it yet, but you know how this is. And so you said you're forty five, I'm forty two. Man, there there's just things in life with when you start having kids and you start realizing stuff that you just you just do not

see coming, you know. Like I was, I was thinking about this the other day, like how much I love coaching my girls and softball or basketball and some of the other teammates and just how fun it is to

like see them excited and and just like challenged. And I feel the same way when I take them hunting, like there's this like anticipation, there's a little nervousness, but it's like a learning process and you can see just the confidence come in and how exciting it is like to watch somebody who hasn't seen a million year off

a tree standard from a ground blind. All of a sudden deer walks in and you can hear their breath just like you know, the breathing gets more excited and it's just like it's so freaking cool on you can feed on that for the rest of the year too. You know, it's it's those haunts are are probably the

haunts I look forward to them most. Yeah, you think, uh, and I think that's I think that's an interesting thing for a guy like you to say, because you've hunted a lot of different stuff and spent a good portion of your life, you know, kind of chasing those those hunting adventures out there, and to hear that is it's interesting because I think a lot of people would look at you, know, your history and some of the some of the different, you know, phases of your hunting career

and go that's that's got to be the best. Like if you're traveling all over and you're chasing that dream mckillan and Antler buck in every state, or you're drawing a mountain goat tag somewhere, like I think a lot of people woul look at that and go you're not going to top that moment. Man, like that's the best.

But it changes. There's there's it's different, yes, and all of those things, you know, pale in comparison to sitting there with your child and watching things happen the way you you prayed and wish they would happen, and just

to see them go through those experiences. You really of it because you know when we were going through our first experiences, we we felt the same way and you can relate to it and that bond, after they've been through that, that bond with your your child out there just continues to grow and and strengthen because you can see the same appreciation you had when you had those experiences in your own child and what they're going through and, Um,

there's just there's nothing better I'll take a white tailed deer hunt with my kid or a Turkey hunt with my kid any day over what I believe is the pinnacle of what I've ever done, which is the mountain goat hunt in Idaho. Do you do you worry with your daughters, because I know you know, starting where you started in northern Minnesota, I know they're hunting is a hell of a lot easier and probably more productive. Do

you worry about that at all? Because I think about that with my daughters a lot, you know, like my girls put in a couple of days and their first year and it took me four full seasons to kill my first year and I'm like, am I making this too easy for them? You know, I think a lot of things have changed though Tony too, if you look at the management practices and just pure you know, deer

numbers out there. Um, you know, I could probably take them back to northern Minnesota and have a much better chance, but I do get get what you're saying. Are they? I think there are some folks out there that, you know, it's the third year hunting and they've already killed, you know, three bucks over, one fifties and one sixties. And that's a little bit different. But yeah, I think so. I

can relate to what you're saying there. Yeah, I mean it's it's just it's a little bit of a balancing act because you don't want it so easy that they don't appreciate it, but you don't want it so hard that they hate it. Right. Let me ask you this because I get I get hit up for this all the time. Uh, do you feel like, did you feel any differently when you're so you have daughters that you

got into hunting? Did you kind of have to recalibrate yourself a little bit taking girls out versus what you might think you would have to do taking boys out? Because I know, man, I've got buddies who have boys and some of them are just your typical give me

a BB gun, I'm gonna kill everything. Give me a pellet gun, I'm gonna kill everything like there's a there's a blood lust in them, and at least my experience with my daughters is like there's not, there's not that same kind of blood lust, but there is like a real competitive nature to them and there is like a desire to just see animals and and be out there right. Yeah, that I thought that the biggest difference from when I was grown up in the experiences I had and how

I felt, you know, out there hunting. I could definitely see with my daughters I had to be more articulate about what their experience and how they would feel before they even felt it. Um and, and I got it from taking my oldest out. Oh, Tony, you sat in that food plot with me in Missouri. We had a dandy, Dandy Buck come out and I had trained her so well that we would not take a quartering two shot at all. And knowing the the the rifles she was using at that time, when this buck stepped out, it

was a no brainer. Yes, it was quartering to a smidge in, but I could not convince her to pull the trigger, to put those crosses where they needed to be, because it was broadside or nothing right. Um and she held me off, Tony, I she absolutely held me off. I have it all on video and it walked out of our life forever and you hear a big sigh

from me like, oh my gosh, what just happened? But she was so proud of herself, like Nope, Dad, you said not to do it, so I'm not going to do it and uh, what's it's a funny story, Tony, but I ended up killing that deer h two and a half years later and and so it's still part of the family. Uh. And she doesn't. She loves it as much as I do, you know, because she had

that experience with me. But I guess with with the girls it's it's always been more about the experience and emotion that goes into what we're doing and I feel like they've been so connected to that experience on a different level than than what I had because of growing up. What I want to do is get out there and put an Arrow in as many things as I could. Right with them, they're they're more specific to no, I

want to shoot the deer. You want me to shoot dead? Ye, well, and that's why I just had a conversation uh, with Nicole Belki, uh, who's you know, she's in the hunting industry and she hunts a lot. We were talking about a mutual friend of ours who UH is, you know, she's relatively new to hunting, but she's through her job, she's got to hunt quite a bit of different stuff

and she's she's mostly a rifle hunter. And they call her the dainty sniper because she's little, she's petite, but she's a she's a she's a really good shot and you know, Nicole was explaining like watching, watching Aaron shoot, and she's like, you know, she takes so much time to make sure that that shot is perfect, and that's something that I kind of hadn't really faced with my daughters, but I like has been happening where it's like, you know, you and I, let's say we go out and we

call in some Turkeys and we've got a shotgun, like, I don't know, it's just pretty much over. Like you, you know, the first good shot you get, you're gonna dump them and it's over and you sort of take that for granted. And then you hunt with somebody who's like I'm not going to screw this shot up, like I am doing everything in my power to ensure that this is like this is going to go exactly how it's supposed to go because of how I've been told.

And that's like a nice reminder that I think we forget about because we have so much experience and you know, you might hunt with people who you know don't don't

think about shots that way as much. But when you get out there with somebody who does, and I don't know if this is, you know, more specific to to new women hunters or not, I really don't know, but when you see that, it's really interesting because there is like such a focus there don't screw this up, like make this shot exactly how you're supposed to, and it's pretty neat to see. Yes, it is. It is a

great reminder. Yeah, I can tell you there's been deer in my life that I've walked out that I didn't take the first good opportunity that I probably should have. But what's always been in the back of my mind is that is what I've I've planted implanted in in in my daughter's uh, you know, hunting ethics and and and all that stuff, is just don't take that shot. Um, a lot of a lot of deer have have gotten away because of that, which is good. You know, you

don't want to wound an animal, but I totally get that. Yeah, it's uh, I think it's one of the I think it's neat that that exists. I think it's also a good reminder of how, you know, new hunters don't necessarily

understand how to think about shots very well. Like when you think about you know somebody who's season, they're watching a deer move and they're thinking, my point of impact just changed by three inches, or I need to aim here, I need to bring that pin back a little bit, or the crosshairs back or forward, and for us it's sort of automatic. into new hunters it's not. And so when you when you talk, when you preach that broadside or nothing game, it's like, okay, now now that's it.

But you're not. You're not. They're not learning that that quartering away shot is great or or you can take that quartering too shot in the right situation if you can slip it in there, or it's not too severe, and that that just comes with experience. But you have to start with a baseline somewhere, and often it's just that, that that broadside shot, and here's where you aim every time, and that's like a jumping off point for them until they have enough experience out there. Right. I think that

the biggest thing for me, Tony, was knowing. I believe in Missouri you could start hunting. Forgive me, I could be wrong, but I believe it was eight years old with with a parent, and so when you have a and I waited until my girls were ten. They just weren't ready and weren'ting fishing enough with with a rifle yet to get out there during youth season. Um, but I did not want them to have that bad experience. Yeah, well,

just just curious. What, what rifle did you start them with? Um, they both were shooting youth model to forty three at it. That's a good caliber. So let's let's talk about your Missouri property a little bit. How did you because you you mentioned when you were when you were in the market, and you you like that area, had some experience close to there and you talked to the neighbors, you saw

how it laid out and you mentioned that access. Wise, you could sort of envision this property turning into something where you knew you'd be able to get into stand spots and and set things up so you wouldn't educate the deer. How did you know that? Like, how did you look at this? What did this property have that

you looked at that said that to you? Um, honestly, you know, if if I were to go back a little bit and think about this, I believe it was more or less the prevailing winds during the time I'd be hunting Um and and really the there was a little maintenance access road that kind of bordered the east side of it and knew I could get some sell side access as well. So I thought, you know, prevailing winds northwest and I know where these deer are betted.

I can get behind them on their betting area or I could get front of them through an easement that was kind of on the on the northeast side of that property as well, to get them coming from their bed and going to a destination field or one of my my food plots. Um. It really dialed into where I believe these deer were betted. When I walked that property.

One of the best things that I found, and I was able to walk this property in April, and clearly I mean the amount of sheds I found in there Tony, for there there had to be, you know, sheds in there, maybe three years old. They were not on a little bit, but I could tell that these bucks were hanging in their late season, no matter what. Um and being mostly a timbered track with some destination fields to the west where these deer, where I found their sheds were in

some pretty good thickets. So I had a really good idea that deer were betting their late season. AH, they would probably be there, you know, in in the early season. For me too, it's just natural betting areas Um and taking a step back and looking at a thousand foot view. I actually then contacted a local logger in there and I had them create some access points for me, uh, and got some good timber value out of it so that I knew I could sneak in uh to those deers.

So there were certain access points I had to create, but I had the luxury of that because, you know, I owned the property at that time. So how how right were you when you when you say you're looking at this and you know, you walk it and you go, okay, prevailing winds or north or west, or northwest in the fall. I know I can cut in on this east side or coming from the south and you know, you you lay that plan out, but you know this isn't like

a perfectly flat piece of ground. You know, like there's there's some terrain to it. I mean, how close were you, like how how close to getting it really, really right were you the first year I felt like I was spot on my very first sit on that property Tony, October six. I still remember it because I drove from Sydney Nebraska, started pretty early in the morning. It's an eight and a half hour trip out there, pulling the property. About one o'clock in the afternoon. There was a huge

cold front coming through. Temperatures are really going to drop and I was in my stand probably by two and I end up killing a hundred and fifty three inch deer by three thirty in the afternoon. Um, so, and I felt like spot on. Right. He came from exactly where I thought these deer would be betted and and knew he was going to start. Heck, he was already making a scrape. You know. That's the first time I saw him was when he was making a scrape just that that cold that cold weather, had got him on

his feet a lot earlier. Um, and this is by the way, this is I didn't have. I didn't pull a single trail CAM card or nothing. I had him out there but I didn't even know I had this d a camera until after I had shot him and went and pulled cards. Now what changed, though, the very next year, is I started to do some habitat improvement and I started adding. Added like a three acre food plot and I cleared out a logging road and widen did a little bit and planted that into some food

for once. I did that, my initial assessment would not have worked. I struggled my second year because I had made some habitat changes in there and therefore I changed the deer movement interesting. So, in doing something that would almost universally be viewed as a positive improvement to your hunting land, you you changed the game for yourself. I

did I did. I took what was pretty much a three acre overgrown little pocket inside that woods and and mowed it down and spread it and planted and clover and chickory and I thought now I'm in it right, all set up on the edge of this thing. It's a beautiful in the pocket type of food plot. And there you sat on that with me. It was gorgeous.

But once I did that, those deer no longer used the same trails because now they were skirting the food plot and they were wind checking, uh, you know, the food plot, versus walking the regular trails right through the center of that thing. That is that is something that you you really can't know until you experience it, and you know, you get your hands on a property that you buy or that you lease or, you know, maybe it's your gramma's farm and you can go in there

and do some improvement to it. That's not something that we think about a lot where you know, you you make that kill plot or you you do that improvement and think, okay, well, the deer always just moved along this ridge. Now they have even more of a reason

to do it. But you also start hunting there a lot and you change the cover and you change the habitat and you might actually, you know, push them to do something a little bit different than you expect instead of just having this easy setup where they're just drawn to that spot. That's exactly what had happened. I learned a lot from my second year of landownership. Um, you know, being eight hours away, I didn't get there a lot Tony.

You know, it was tough to get out there, but when I was out there I worked on some weekends and and did what I needed to do. So by the time hunting season came around it was a humbling experience to see how my my improvements to that property absolutely changed the dynamic of how those those mature gears specifically,

we're using that that property. Yeah, I mean I think there's a really a really poignant cautionary tale there, which is when we do something that we think is going to make it easier, it often comes with some baggage that we don't see common you know, like we we flip on the outdoor channel and we see dear get shot in food plots all day long and we're like okay, well,

that's the answer. And Man, it can be, but it can also be something that convinces us, you know, kind of like trail camera usage or cell camera usage, where it's like this is the answer to my problems. It's like man, this, this can be the answer to some of your problems, but it can also create new ones. Yes, absolutely can. Yeah, the only way I got around that piece, Tony, the next year's I decided I kind of during the

UH shed season. I could clearly see the established trails around that food PLAT and how deer we're moving around me in places where I would never see them right. But what I what I did recognize is there were certain spots on that trail where they literally could see the food plot and if nothing was out there during you know, the Rut, it's not going to pull in

a book. So I just did plot screen all the way around that and and picking it up a little bit and dropped a couple of trees to get the deer to move, move around those trail was the way I wanted them to do it. And Uh, it changed the year three was phenomenal for me after I figured it out. Well, we're bumping into that on my buddies land down there in southwestern Wisconsin. We were. We were there in the end of the end of August hanging some stands. I was actually setting it up for our

one week in November shoot. And you know, we realized last year when I hunted there, I saw all these bucks sent check this little knob up on this ridge and it was just like, I don't know, it was like the spot right, like what I was in a good spot, but that was every deer I saw either started there or ended there. And you know like what you're talking about with deer being able to look into your plot and go, well, there's nobody there, there's no

reason to go there or scent check it. Really well they're going to do that instead of just blindly running out into those plots. And I kind of had that and epiphany about this. But when I got in there, it's just this knob that had all these doughbeds on it. It's a little thicker and the way it sets up is like if you're a buck and you want to send check that little betting area there, you don't have

very many good options. You gotta Get up tight on it because it's a pretty tight little ridge and the way they're going to skirt around it, you're just like they kind of have to do this here if they know those are better there and they can't really cheat the system a whole lot. Like they got to get

up in there pretty tight. And so when you know, when I walked in there, I'm like this is the spot, but then I look at the tree that I flagged in the winter when I was shed hunting out there and I go that tree is way too crooked to hang a double set in. And you know how it is. It falls away. And so in the in the winter, you look at it and go this is it, just and you don't really think it through. And then when you carry a bunch of crap in there to hang the stands. You look at it and go it's not

right and I tried to force it. Put everything up, pulled everything down and I'm looking at it going you know, I I didn't think through the wind on this situation very well, and that's why I want to ask you how right you got your property in Missouri, because, as this property of my buddies, it's close enough to the Mississippi River where you know, when you're hunting there in the fall, all you hear is people shooting ducks all day long. And I mean you can look across the

river to the Iowa side. So you're right there. And what I didn't realize was if I'm planning on a you know, a West wind or whatever, that river system, the Mississippi River system, is affecting those winds so much and those valleys that run up, you know, kind of parallel to the land, are perpendicular to the land. You can't you can't just look at the forecast and be like okay, this is what's gonna happen because when you get in there there's so many terrain features that might

be affecting it. It's kind of like you gotta learn like on the fly and you learn how often you get it wrong. And so we were dealing with that on this spot because we're like this is a spot we want to hunt, but I know if it says a West Wind, that wind is gonna shoot up this valley here and it's not going to be exactly what

I thought. And so you're always playing that game. And so even though it seems pretty easy to figure out, if you've got private land to work with, it's pretty good, a lot of times it's still kind of a constant work in progress. It is it is a matter of fact. You bring up a good point and there's one thing I'm going to do on my Indiana farm this year and uh, you know, I can look at my my my favorite hunting APP and and see which win direction is, and I can stand out on my front porch and

see what the wind direction is. I can look at the flag pole right, but I really want to start going in and sitting some of these sets and and understanding truly how the wind is flowing in in some of these ravines or sidehills that I'm hunting, because I'm still figuring out my Indiana farm by the way, it takes more than a year. I got lucky, so lucky that first year in Missouri. Um, but the what the train can do to your the wind direction out on

my property Missouri is ridiculous. There are that's where I sat. I actually set them up for a northwest or a westerly wind and I get down in there and that wind is going the opposite direction that I need that wind to go and I'm pulling out. So I'll ruin a morning hunt and I've really got to start taking better notes on truly what direction of wind I need

to actually hunt in those spots. Yeah, and then you know, there's a good lesson there too, because I find myself a lot of times I'll go this, this spot is perfect for a South East Wind, or this spot is perfect for a north or west wind, and if I get into something where I'm like it's got to be straight north or I'm screwed, or it's got to be straight out of the West, I find myself either sitting places where I'm like this is not so great, like I'm probably gonna get busted, or doing what you did,

which is like you get in there and go I can't do it, I gotta get out, and then you might sand bag of morning or you might go to a secondary spot and it's just never usually doesn't work out very well that way. And so the more the more your setups allow for a couple of different wind directions. I know this is obvious, but we we don't think

about it a lot. Sometimes when we're setting up, it's really important to give yourself that little margin for error and go okay, well, now you know, if that wind isn't perfectly out of the West, if it's cheating pretty hard to the north, I'm still okay, right, Yep. And some of those setups are just there. They're tough to find, man, like you said, you can't you don't really know them until you get in there and you get a season, you know where you go. Okay, this is actually what

happens here, right. And it's tough when you're you know, somebody may look at eighty acres and say that's not very big right, Um and and it it is. And when you're talking about how many matureier can that eighty acres hold? And so when you're hunting a specific deer or a specific betting area and you get in there and the wind is wrong, you have a really good chance of educating that dear to the point where you may not see him until rot or. You may not

see that dear again. Now I don't want to give to your all the credit, but I also respect them enough to know I've had dear pattern me in my my my access points right. I'll go hunt to set. I've consistently gotten a great buck on camera night after night after night. The winds the same and I'll access that set and I'll go sit there and won't see him and I'll hunt it the next night because the winds right and I don't see him. I'll pull out and the next night he's in there. It's like what

is going on? And you start to think to yourself that dear has me patterned. He knows how I'm getting in and so he knows not to not to come that way when I'm around. Um, yeah, it's it's been. I've been educated more times than not on on mature bucks well, and paying attention to stuff like that is real important. I was having a conversation when we were hanging those stands down in Wisconsin with my buddy because the spot that I killed my buck on there last year.

was was this just really cool stand over a pond in this valley. I mean it was just a had a lot going for it. It had the right terrain, it had some water, uh, pretty close to that betting Knob, and it just you know, you're you're checking a lot of boxes there and man it was fun. You could you could get in there in an awesome way in the morning and access it and almost you're almost guaranteed

not to blow deer out. And the way it set up your wind, if you had the right wind, it was blown over a quarry where they weren't probably gonna come from, and so it was just like fun, you know. I mean the morning that I killed my buck, I think. I think we saw fourteen deer off of that stand, which is fun. Right. You're watching deer. You never have a break of more than a half hour or an hour.

And then my buddy who owns the place, he's like, I'm gonna go sit that with a rifle and you know, you can see a lot, you've got a lot of different places to shoot. You could cover some serious ground with a high power in there. And he went in there and the first day sat all day and saw two deer and I go okay, well, that spot is really good. So what happened? Did it get open enough where they saw him come in? Was it the cumulative

effect of the Wisconsin Gun season going on? Something changed in there, you know, in a in a two week span where you know, okay, you're not dealing with the heat of the Rut the same way by the time the Wisconsin opener is so you can factor that in a little bit. But you can see so much in there. To not see hardly any deer all day, something changed and you got to figure it out. It's not just, like you said, with a with the deer patterning you

on your your entrance route. It's like or your access points. It's not random like they've they've got you somehow there. If they're not doing what you expect them to do, there's a really good chance it's because either somebody else or you tipped your hand to him and they know it. That's right. You know, I think that stuff is is really important. So how much did it hurt having to

sell that or choosing to sell that Missouri Property? It hurt so bad because just the history I had out there, the memories that had made with my girls and knowing the quality of animals around there and having such great neighbors.

It was very, very tough, Tony, but it was it was crystal clear to me that in order to spend more time with the girls that I needed a property closer to where I now, you know, work and live and and so the decision was made to sell that property and and try to find something in in Indiana. And this was a much different approach this time around and actually finding the property that I wanted. Oh, Tony, it totally different. So I went into Missouri, like I

told you, and I got lucky that first day. And how it's a really nice year. This time around. Wanted a project. I wanted to challenge myself to the point where I had to really think about everything I've learned. And I've been around so many great hunters out there, habitat managers and I've just been a sponge for years. But now I wanted to try to put what I've learned to work. So I found eighty five acres in in in Indiana here and the first time I walked

the property, Tony, I couldn't find a deer trail. It was like a state park. It was absolutely gorgeous, maples and hickory trees but no undergrowth whatsoever. It was wide open. Plus it had something I've never had before, which was a twenty acre. Uh It was. It was in fescue for Hey, but I could envision kind of an agricultural spot there where I could plant corn and beans, et Cetera, and I've never experienced having that much acres that I could,

you know, test my arming skills on as well. So when I first walked the property, I walked away going that it's going to be too much work, and so I passed on it. And I passed on it for one specific reason. It wasn't because it wasn't a big enough project or it was too big of a project. It is because I was worried about one specific way to access this property to be able to hunt it correctly. Well, after a month went by, it still hadn't sold. A

couple of folks had looked at it. I decided to take another drive down there and take a much finer look at it and I found a logging road that I didn't know existed. It had to be about twenty years old. That came out to a county road and I thought, my goodness, I wonder how this goes through the property. So I took my favorite hunting APP and I started walking down this logging road and dropping pins and tracing my route and boy, when I was done,

I could not believe what I saw. It gave me all the acts I needed to just that one more look to find that hidden gem of how to get in and potentially u you know, hunt, hunt, have really good hunting opportunities on this property. Knowing how, then, you know, my mind started going. There was a blank canvas. Where do I want to hinge cut? What does the logging opportunity to look like in here? I was not interested

in the money from a timber harvest. I was only interested in how do we harvest this timber to create the best Turkey and deer hunting habitat? How do wait? How do I put the logging roads in there to help me enter or gain access to enter and leave my stands undetected? How can I use those same logging roads to influence how deer are coming in and out of the property to the agricultural field that I envision having?

All those things went to play and now it's year three, Tony, and and I cannot wait for folks to see this. I've I've document at every piece of this journey, from how it was to where it is today, and I think folks would be amazed at what you can do in a short period of time. That's that's so cool. Do you do you find yourself in your experience with, you know, the properties you've owned and you own and

you know the least thing you've done? Do you find yourself like constantly being reminded of how much you have to learn on each of these properties, every one of them? Yes,

I mean it never stops. that. That's one thing that's a real eye opener, because I always think you know, let's say you you know, let's say you're a die hard public land hunter and you you know you're in Pennsylvania and you're like this is the national forest, Die Hunter, this is these are the couple of sections I hunt, and you're a scouting fiend and you can always get yourself into a position where you're like, I know my dear, I know my dear, I know my dear ground, but

you don't. And when you when you have your own piece of ground to work with like my my biggest properties, thirty acres, and you know, this summer I was walking that just because I kind of wanted to, and I'm seeing apple trees I didn't know we're in there, and I see stuff where I go. How do you miss this on thirty acres that you've owned for, you know, seven or eight years and you expand that out and realize, like you just there's so much that you're gonna Miss,

even if you're out there all the time. That that that's part of what's like so cool about the whole thing. It is, and I believe me, Tony, you and I both can relate to the guy in Pennsylvania that's hunting

some big woods right Um on public land. Going from, you know, that doing the recon you needed you to be successful in that situation, to now owning a piece of property and really having a blank canvas and creating what you want is it was two different it's the evolution of where I wanted to be as a hunter and as a habitat manager. So that's exactly why I went down the path that I did. But Um, yeah, like you said, it's amazing I could walk out on

that five acres tomorrow. I've had it for three years and see something brand new or something that's gonna Open my eyes to why don't I have a sat here? It's that's so cool. So, given, given the fact that you have that eighty five acres down there closer to where you live, do you do you still lease any grown? I do. I actually have a lease in Ohio. Why? Uh, that's a great question. I can tell you it's and it's only I've only had it for a year. Um, I do like the opportunity to getting to hunt in

other states as well. It kind of extends my season. I will tell you my main focus is my Indiana farm, but if I have an opportunity to go over to ohile and and try to pattern a buck or get on a good one, I'm definitely gonna do it. Yeah, so you're just you're just giving yourself a few more options there when you know, with with your insights into leasing working for base camp, what are people looking for now?

Because I know like leasing. You know it's leasing to me is kind of like the box blind thing, you know, when you think about sort of these things that might have grown out of Texas hunting. I remember seeing them. You know, when I started hunting, you'd watch a show or, you know, read an article and you're like, I can't believe somebody sits in a little house and shoots a deer, or I can't believe people are paying hunt land they don't own. And now, you know, it's across the spectrum.

Like it's it's so popular, and leasing is just crazy popular right now. Yeah, it's. It's, you know, for the Midwest specifically, you know it's it's obviously not as a mature market or thing. Is is what you'll find down south like Texas, Alabama, Arkansas, et CETERA. Georgia. Leasing has been around for a very, very long time down self. So still in the Midwest you still have those folks that asked the question. You know, why would you ever

lease the property? Just go knock on the door and create a relationship with somebody and and and hunt the property? Um and and, as a matter of fact, I've I've heard folks take it a step farther and they're not very happy with with the leasing that that we do right and and part of it is because folks are are starting to uh, it's it's not, it's not cheap. Right, leasing a property is not cheap Um, specifically in certain states. But I will tell you they're getting over the fact

that you would have to pay for access nowadays. My my biggest rebuttal to folks who have a problem with leasing today is, you know, we pay for our archery equipment. Our guns are ammo or camouflage, everything, everything else we paid for. That landowner has invested in a property and is willing to allow access for hunting. I just want folks to be grateful for that, because a lot of private landage that they don't have to do it, they wish to do it and and part of that is

they get paid for right. Well, I mean I heard Stan Potts say this years ago and it's stuck with me, and his argument was you think that you've had free hunting, you know, say you knock on the door and they let you on there and it's like it was only

free to you. Somebody's always paying for it. Somebody's always been paying the property taxes, somebody paid, you know, somebody paid to be the title holder of that Land Somehow, somewhere or some way, and so the idea that you know hunting is was free at one point, and it

isn't now. Isn't that doesn't really hold water. It does hold water and I can tell you I've I've had discussions with a lot of our landowners and and they're so appreciative of the the liability coverage that comes with our program you know, we give a five million dollar liability coverage to per policy for our landowner and our covers our hunters as well, and that's really one of the only reasons why they're opening access today is because they feel like they have some sort of comfort level

and in knowing they would be covered if an incident did happen. And and so these are landowners opening up their property to any hunters, whether they're in state, out of state, whatever, that they normally wouldn't have access to.

So I'm very, very proud of our at least in program what we can offer our landowners and the comfort level that we can bring to them with our services and and then the the liability coverage that we provide uh to allow other hunters to continue to get out of the field, because that's the most important thing to me, Tony, is we continue to get, you know, folks in the

field enjoying this great sport of hunting. Well, and that's something I've never thought of because I've been banging the drum pretty hard on walk in programs and you know, you know, private land open to the public access programs throughout different states, because I think, I think access to ground and any way we can open it up is a huge win for us and I just I just feel like that's a hill I'm going to die on because I don't see a lot of other solutions to

some of the access problems we have going on. But I've never really thought about, you know, leasing services as as being like a vehicle to or, you know, a

vessel to open up more land to people. But there are probably landowners out there who weren't allowing hunting and you know, pretty sick of right in that checked Uncle Sam every year for their property taxes or you know however it plays out going you know, man, if I can if I can be covered against liability and I can have some responsible hunters on here who are paying me a decent amount of money to to hunt the deer, that's sort of a win win for everybody and it

probably is opening up some land that maybe wasn't accessible to somebody before and absolutely is, and I can I can tell you as well as is some of these landowners did allow hunting, but then it just got out of control. They allowed one person, who invited their buddy, who invited their buddy, and before you know it, you know there's there's five or six hunters out there on

a property that really should only be hunting three. Right and and so some of the feedback we've gotten back is we really appreciate you setting the limit of how many people can hunt our property. We feel like there's more control over there. We know the guys a lot better Um and there's so many great relationships have come out of this leasing program to between the Hunters and landowners that I've seen over the years. We've got some very,

very touching and great stories. That's that's awesome. What are some of the mistakes people make? Let's say you've got somebody out there, I don't care what state they're in, they're like, you know what, I lost my place, it got developed, or I'm sick of bumping into people on public land. I wanna, I wanna. I can't afford to buy a place, but I want to lease something. What are some of the mistakes people make when they start looking into leasing. Um, they don't do their due diligence.

That's probably one of the biggest things because it's such a competitive thing today. The demand is so high for a good lease today. I think a lot of folks are are are so eager to get a piece of property that they'll pay in full and just then they go out there and say see that it's not what they thought they were getting. Um. Any leasing program over there should give you at least a week. You know, you put a deposit on on you go out there, look at the property and make sure that's exactly what

you want before you put your full money down. I think a lot of folks will understand that. Once that you pay the leasing company. They're a broker. That money goes directly to the landowner. It's no longer in the

leasing company's pockets. Right. So still do your due diligence. Um, have you ever looked at, uh, well, you bought your thirty acres, when when you read the write up of a property and you would go up there and look at that property that you're interested in buying and you would see things differently than who ever wrote that property up correct. Sure, and then it happens all the time. We as as as hunters, as outdoors men and women, we see things differently. So don't take the write up

for its word. Go out there and put boots on the ground and make sure you are getting exactly what you want and then when that is the case, then make sure you secure because they're they're not making any more of it and the leasing is very good. Properties are very hard to come by. So you would say that you see a lot of people get into the leasing game and sort of get a little bit too

impulsive with the lease? Yes, yeah, I could see that. Uh, I mean you see you see that in some of these hot real estate markets where, you know, people are buying three quarters of a million dollar houses site unseen just to be in, you know, Catchum Idaho or Bozeman, Montana or something, and I could see that trickling down into the into the competitive space of of leasing, especially in states with probably a high hunter density. Yes, YEP,

and I get it. I get it because of the demand, but man, if I'm going to invest my time and money and to go out and hunt property, I'm putting boots on the ground first to make sure it's exactly what I would like to have. Yeah, you you mentioned before I was I was going to ask you this. You said, you know, you put a deposit down, then you go walk it. Is that? Is that typically the order of things where if you see, uh, you know, listing pop up on your guys site and go man,

that's that's the one I want. It's an hour away from home, it's the right size, the right price, you throw a deposit down, then you go look at it. Yep. Yet you put a three deposit down and you've got seven days to get out there and look get it and if you want it, you pay the balance. Um, if you don't, just you're in the market for another one. Yeah, so that's that's basically like kind of like scrow money or like hold money. It's nonrefundable, Tony, it's it's that critical.

It's the demand is so high. Yes, yeah, so you gotta, I mean you gotta at least have a pretty good idea. So do you advise people to, you know, check out the listing and then do some e scouting and, you know, really be honest with themselves before they plunked on that deposit?

I would love people to do that. You know, if I gave that advice Tony, I'd tell you they would lose out on the majority of our leases in the Midwest there are specific states that we all have a property rollout on and we release our properties Monday, Wednesday and Fridays to our membership level and if they're not if they don't have a deposit on them in five or ten minutes, it's shocking. Like how how? How high

is the interest? And like people, I mean I could have, I bet you have a lease or two right now in Ohio that, if it came up, there's probably fifty people watching for that least to come up. Wow, YEP, wow. So it's just and you're you're not seeing any softening of this given the current economy? No, no, and it's to be honest, with the last two years it's it's been the demands to even grown higher. I think people just want to get away and have a spot for

their own. I've seen properties out there that are you know, I probably wouldn't, least just because of how it lays out, but folks want to get in the field. It's it's refreshing in a way that we haven't lost that are these leases that you guys are offering? They're all annual renewals, right, yes, and first right of renewal. Got It. Got It. Do you do you see Woll? I mean do they get in it? Do you see people hopping leases a lot, or do they tend to? They tend to stick with one.

They'll stick with with the good ones. Are Our renewals are pretty Dang high. You know, the same guy who leased it last year's least it this year. And you guys have a real estate division now as well. Yeah, base camp country real estate was formed in two thousand and eighteen just, you know, help out with the demand. We were losing a lot of landowners because they were selling their property and and you know, it was a

great way to keep these folks in the family. We already knew their property intimately, we had history with their property, and so our our owner, Steve Menk, said, hey, we should start a real state division and continue to take care of our landowners in that fashion, and it's it's been wonderful, Tony. It's been an absolute pleasure to watch this team grow and the culture we have here second to none. I'm so proud of these these guys and

gals that are working for us. I mean, I would have to imagine if you take somebody who's serious about deer hunting enough to pay, pay pretty good money for a lease and sort of be in that market all the time, there's probably a fair amount of cross over there from people who are considering buying their own land.

That is that is correct to me. It's it's the evolution, you know, of not going the talking kind of your D D Y I type of deal to leasing program where now you're leasing your your own property to having enough for down payment to own your own piece of land. Yeah, there's there's sort of a natural progression there and I have to imagine, you know, leasing, leasing is interesting me. I've never done it before and you know, you see it sort of as a bridge between the public land

knock on doors thing. You know, a lot of people don't want to do that anymore or it's just not a great option where they live, but they can't afford outright by something because you know, you know how it is when you when you go shop for recreational land, a lot of banks are like sorry, we don't, we don't want it. You need to have a lot of money to put down. You know, if you don't have a plan to build on it or something, it's a it's a tough little market to get loans for and

just weird. Can Be a weird thing to navigate. And so that that middle ground is is to lease something. But Leasing, you know what I mean? That that's like renting an apartment like that money's it's going to somebody else year after year and not going into, you know, sort of your own theoretical piggy bank. And I imagine a lot of people who leased for a few years sort of graduate out of that and go, you know what, I want to put this money into something that I own. Yes, Yep,

I can absolutely relate to that. Yeah, it's it's an interesting it's an interesting thing to think about in our space because, you know, I hear people bitch about it a lot and you know, this property get leased up or this guy owning this and not letting anybody in,

and I get it. I mean I've lost a lot of places to that too, to that kind of thing, but it's not like it's going to go away and it's it's reality we have to live in and to just be angry with it and instead of maybe look into it and see if you could play in in that space as well. Somehow to me it's a little bit shortsighted, because it's not. I mean we, we are going to be dealing with this stuff with with higher

demand for ground. You know that's not going away and you know, when you look at urban sprawl and you look at what's just happening out there with a lot of deer habitat, we are just getting pushed onto fewer places and people are going to figure it out. They're going to figure out a way to have, you know, good deer they can hunt that aren't, you know, constantly being chased by other people. Right. No, I I my perception of leasing before I worked here was a lot

different than what it is today. and Um, part of it is just because of the company I work for and how they they truly care about the landowner hunters out there. We talked about all the time how proudly are making sure that we're providing more access to two hunters out there. That's not lost on us at all. That's that's our main goal right the second thing is is to be part of a company that actually gives back.

If if you know we we we support farm rescue and catch a dream and uh, several, several other folks out there, Sportsman's Alliance. We're right there with your typical guy who wants folks um to succeed out there and protect our heritage and our right to hunt and all that stuff. So we're not just sitting back here collecting paychecks from from folks spending their hard earned money on leases.

We've actually got a strategy and we're working hard to gain and get more access for folks and and we do give back to our communities tenfold and I love it and that that's awesome. Man. Before we wrap this up, I want to ask you a couple of questions that you've learned about deer over the years. I want to switch gears here a little bit and I want to start this. I want to ask you what's The dumbest thing you've seen a mature buck do? Yesh, it's a

great question. The dumbest thing can be. Can Be Iowa private land, it can be northern Minnesota, public, doesn't matter. What's what's the one time that sticks in your head where you killed one where you're like, I cannot freaking believe he did that. Well, UH, in Missouri, Sullivan County, I did shoot at a very, very mature animal Um

at about twelve yards and I grazed him. I cannot believe I missed that, dear, but he ran another twenty yards, stop, stood broadside, looked back at me like a mule deer and that's all I needed for a second shot. What happened on the first one? The first one, I believe I peaked like it just to me. I already had that deer mounted, I already figured out which way it was going to be turned on the wall, all that stuff. I believe that's what happened. Yeah, so you you get,

you out, drove your headlights a little bit. Oh, yes, and it was humbling. But I could not believe that deer ran out there and stood it, you know, thirty two yards or so and and look literally broadside at me in the deer stand because he kind of ran uphill and it was too late. Yeah, well, you know, when you say that we always think and we talked about mature books like they would never do something like that, but I can remember deer that have done that to

me too. I mean I killed a I killed a hundred and fifty one inch or on public land in North Dakota one time that I missed at twenty yards and did the same thing. He just kind of did that little hop to thirty and then I thumped him. And I can think of other deer I shot. You know, the first buck that I killed with my re curve back when I traditional bow hunted some same thing. I

missed him close and they did the same thing. It's kind of hot back there to twenty yards and gives you that follow up and I think you know the lesson there for anybody listening to this who doesn't, you know,

maybe doesn't have a whole wall full of hundred seventy is. Listen, plan for that second shot, like you know, plan to make a good first shot, but understand that you know, out of let's say you shoot at ten deer, one or two of them might, you know, if you miss, might give you that follow up shot and if you're not ready to get an Arrow, you know, like that second Arrow knocked up and ready to go, you might

miss out on that opportunity. Right. I mean I was ready to hang my bolt and my garage for the rest of the year. I mean in those split seconds that I'm reaching for another Arrow, right, like, how did you miss that, dear? And it just it was meant to be. Yeah, it just it just happens. And they

they sometimes they don't get it. Man. If they don't, if they don't see you or hear something, you know, really definitive, there's a lot of times where they're going to spook a little bit and and give you a chance to you know, while they're trying to figure out what the hell just happened, you can probably you can find a way to redeem yourself a little bit. You know, it doesn't it's not gonna happen every time, but if you think a big buck will never allow you to

do that, even on public land, it's just not true. Right. Yeah, I related back to it. I did not have to stop the deer. He was sitting there eating acorns and I just played with you know, so I didn't put them on alert even before I shot. Isn't it amazing how you can miss a big buck at twelve yards? I would love to say that will be the last one, but I've hunted too long to know now that it could happen again. I hope it doesn't. But Dude, it is so freaking humbling to miss one that you could

probably get with a spear like seven out of ten times. Right. I'm not too proud to say that I've I've missed like that. Yeah, it happens. Uh. What? What's something else you learned, especially when you were you're really into your quest to kill an Antler Buck in, uh, as many states as possible, and you're, you know, in the Jive to Washington, you're hunting different areas, you're hunting a lot

of public land. What, what's something you learned that you would say that you learned about deer bucks, specifically that a lot of people just give them too much credit for. I would have to say, yeah, that's a really good question, Tony.

Oh my gosh, what's some kind of universal trait or something you saw in deer in your travels where you're like, man, I think people are just overthinking this part about deer uh, that they need cover, they got to eat right and and a lot of times if you can figure out those two things, Um and get in between those two things,

you're being good shape, being really good shape. Anywhere I've ever gone, I've adapted to kind of the way that other folks hunt in those areas, but that those two things right there is if you can find the right cover in the signed within that cover Um and find where they are going to eat, you've got a really good opportunity to putting yourself in a good situation. Yeah, that that reminding yourself that it's often a game of bed to food, food to bed, and you know your

job is to get in between there is pretty beneficial, right. Yep. Yeah, I remember, man, we were in like seventh or eighth grade football and I remember we were getting our we were getting beat and I remember the coach saying because

we had we had good running backs. You know, I was in a farming community and we had some really tough kids that were running backs, and remember him saying thirty three blast, blast, thirty three blast, forty four blasts, over and over and over and over again, because we're gonna get three, four or five yards on every one and we're just gonna grind them down. And I remember thinking like man, we have all these plays and all these options and we're gonna run those two and it worked.

Like you just it's just simple and when you look at the world of a white tail and we start to give these bucks so much credit and you know, like he beds here on this wind and he does this on this wind and he's never he's nocturnal all of October and you go, hold on, hold on, he's got to eat and he needs a safe place to lay out through the day. And if you can start finding those two spots and how he goes from one to the other, you've got a lot of this stuff licked. Yes, Yep.

And getting in and out on the tective is just key. If you're close right, absolutely key. I I've got spots on my property, Tony Acres, that I would love to hunt every day, but I will not hunt until the right day. Yep, Yep, and that's you know, that that lesson. It's that's a hard one to get across to people who are like hunting public land and they're like, okay, I got a weekend and this is a spot with all the rubs and if I don't go there, somebody

else is going to. But learning that if you do go there when it's not right, it doesn't matter, you're gonna get it wrong, you're gonna screw it up, and that that patience you know people will look at this and go yeah, well, sure, you've got eighty five acres of your own land and you can be patient because nobody's going to go in there. But that rule applies everywhere because if you screw it up, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you think about the hunting competition

or what big bucks do. If you're like I have to do this because you know if I don't like somebody else is going to screw it up or whatever, it doesn't matter because you've already lost the game. Right. Yeah, and I always think about my neighbors are hunting out there too, and if I've got a dear, that their core areas is primarily, you know, around my property. Now dear have a large range, but if I'm getting a deer, you know, more times than not on my eighty five acres,

the last thing I want to do is bump them out. Yep, Yep, and you have the option to save them and be patient. And you do. You learn that, though, just just an experience. I mean I I run into that hunting public land all the time where I'm like, I want to go here so bad because I feel that clock ticking and I only have so much time and I know there's a chance to somebody go through there or somebody will go through there, but if you know it's not right,

the worst thing you can do is force it right. Yep, we and we do that a lot. Listen, buddy, we gotta wrap this up. It's always so much fun to catch up with you. So much good information here. Where can everybody go to find uh, maybe find their next lease or maybe find a little property buy somewhere? You Bet then go to a base camp leasing DOT COM OR BASE CAMP COUNTRY DOT COM for the real estate needs. Awesome. I love it, man, thank you so much for coming on.

I appreciate it. That's it for this week, folks. Be sure to tune in next week for some more white tailed goodness. This has been weird to hunt and I'm

your guest host, Tony Peterson, as I always. Thank you so much for listening and if you're looking for more white tail content, be sure to check out the meadiator dot com, slash wired to see a pile of new articles each week by mark myself in a whole slew of white tail addicts, or you can head on over to our wired hunt YouTube channel to view the weekly content we drop