Ep. 573: How a Contrarian Mentality Kills Mature Bucks with Zach Ferenbaugh

not the voice of Mark Kenyon. Marc is actually on his ninth vacation of the year this week, so I hope he enjoys himself. He left me a voicemail last week and mentioned that he and Spencer were headed to Florida to collect seashells and shark's teeth on the beach. He said, so they could put them on display in shadow boxes they bought at hobby lobby or something. I don't know. I don't know, but I do hope those boys find some cool stuff on the beach, I guess,

and that they use plenty of sunscreen. Today. I'm keeping this going alive and well with the one and only Zach Ferrenbaugh. Zach is most well known for killing big Bucks on public land from the ground, but we're not gonna get into that too much on this show. Instead, we actually dive into Zach's thoughts on the hunting media trail cameras, what people think about big Bucks, and really why his contrarian mindset helps him overcome some of the

most difficult deer in the country. This episode is just fun from start to finish. I think you're gonna love it. Zach Farrenboll, How the hell are you, buddy doing well? Man? Just well? I don't know. I say I'm doing well. I feel like I'm a little stressed down preseason stuff, but that happens every year. To me, it's like I should be I should expect it more than what I do. Depend Every year I'm like, oh damn, I got a

lot of stuff. I gotta get done, editing stuff, I gotta plan out the season, and just all that stuff is gets to my gets to where it's just running through my head all day. Yeah, dude. My my wife asked me the other day, She's like, you're really spun up lately. And I'm like, every year you get to you get to this certain point in the year and it's like I haven't shot enough, I haven't scouted enough. I you know, I do this tag, but I didn't draw this tag or where am I going in this

week in October? And I know it's dumb stuff to bitch about. Yeah, I know it's first world problems, but it like I become just like you, like I become this kind of like a little ball of anxiety. Is that? And then once you get into season, it's just sort of like the flow. It's so much easier. One season starts to go with the flow and you're just like not worried. And I think I think part of that is just the anticipation in a way is so extreme

that it creates stress. Like I'm ready to do it because it's so fun and I know it's going to be fun once it's here. But I just continue to get more and more stressed. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter at all. It'll work itself out. It always does. Are you do You do you still love it? Like the filming, Yeah, I definitely do. The only thing that I would say I was telling you a little bit before is just the editing can be a little extreme at times, and there's waves of it

that are worse than others. So again I'm complaining. And it's always been that way though for me, where it's like I always want to be out there hunting or filming. I don't like they're being a season open and sitting at home. And if I'm sitting at home, I want to hang out with my girlfriend or my friends or whatever, you like, take a break, not not sit at the editor for you know, twenty four hours straight. And that's that's a dirty little secret about when you make content,

Like the editing video sucks so much. Like there's parts of it that I do like, and there's time times where I'm really proud of certain projects, but there's also stuff, like in the middle of the season that I feel like I'm just getting through it, just to get through it, you know what I mean. Yeah, there's a there's a editing. That stuff is a heavier lift than people probably assume.

And you know, I'm pretty good buddies with Tom Miranda, and you know, he's produced a billion different TV shows, and that dude is up at three o'clock in the morning every day editing and until like the normal world wakes up, and that's his you know, And and when you talk to him about it, you know he's been all over the world and killed everything that he can, and you know, people think that that's like the bulk of his job, and he spends more time sitting in

the editing sweet in his house than anything else, because it's just if you want a good product, like there's no it's just like writing a book, Like writing a rough draft of a book. You know, if you're a writer, it's not that bad. Like it's a couple of months and you're like, okay, sweet, and then you get into editing process and you're like, God, just sucks so much. Yeah, it's just it's I think that's the part about it. It's it's so repetitive, like watching it the first time.

I always explained it's like watching aime film. Like if you played any like sports, there's always the opportunity to watch game film to see what you did, what your opponents doing, how to adjust for the future. It's the same thing in hunting. When you sit there and you watch the mistakes that you made, you can just really break down every tiny little move and it's really fun

when you do it, that first initial rough cut. But then when it starts to get to the point where you're the only one looking at the rough cut, then the second cut, then the third cut needs to continue over and over and over again. That's when it starts to get exhausting. Yeah, it's a it's a tedious process that that that idea of you know, paying attention to your mistakes and you know, kind of reviewing a hunt.

I mean that that's one of the cool things about filming is you get to see when you missed and what you know, Like in your head, you go, oh, the dear was doing this, and then you get to watch it and you go, no, I remember this wrong, like and I think it's such a good lesson there, especially for encounters, because you're like, oh, you know, like this this only lasted thirty seconds and it was a five minute encounter vice versa, or I must have been drawn on that deer for two minutes, and then you

watch it and you were like, yeah, it was twelve seconds, bro. Like in your head you spun out and you were you were like, I gotta make this ship happen now, and then you watch it play out how it actually happened and not how you're worked up buck Fever brain took it. It's totally different. So many yeah, yeah, I just always crack up. But the things that I'm able

to pick up going back through it. And it's funny too, because you know, my friends that aren't doing it, for example, like my friend Ben, who I spent a bunch of time hunting with and he lives in Ohio. It'll be like, you know, a week after and like he's already kind of gone back to work and he's doing you know, doing other life things at that point, and I'm still following him, like, Okay, do you remember, you know, at nine in the morning when we went up over that

ridge and we solve this. I think the reason that we saw that is this, this and this, And it's just because I'm sitting there watching it over and over again and it's just hilarious. But what you learned, So there's pros and cons to it, for sure, There are, for sure. And I think the bigger lesson there is to really just face all your screw ups. And yeah, well, I mean but you know when you when you look at you know, and this happens to you all the time, and I know it does. Where you you do a show,

you're at the Deer Classic or something. Everybody tells you they're hunting story, and you know, they want to tell you about the big one they got, and they want to tell you about the big one they almost got. And you hear aside from here and poaching stories all the time, which blows my mind. You hear you know, the my arrowdeflectory, dumped the string or I used the wrong pen or like some excuse all the time. And you know, like, I'm not a therapist, right, I'm an

idiot who writes scroll hunting articles. But like I listen to that and I go, I think you'd be better off being honest about this and just going because that's you know, like when you think about the stuff that stings like that of mistakes you made that makes you not want to make them again. Like failure is a powerful motivator. And if you kind of like brush it aside or dismiss it as like an excuse, like like oh, you know this was out of my control, that it

doesn't take you anywhere, you know. But if you're like, man, I that I should have had that buck dead and I didn't because I made a dumb decision. Man used that ship because it's gonna work for you in the future. Yeah, And I think, you know, while you learned something from every experience, good or bad. I've always said in hunting especially, you learn best from your heart failure. And it's funny, you know, nobody wants to fail, but somebody that consistently

fails is going to learn things really fast. And like it's almost like it's almost like, in a way you want to have you know, probably throughout the season major screw ups and then about thirties percent of you know what I mean of success or that would be ideal. But it's like you just have to take those mistakes and yet break them down and look at you know, not just mistakes too, is in the in the moment mistakes but okay, did we really need to back out

of that spot yet? Or should we have kept going and look for you know, more signed And it's like sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes you know, you you leave the area when you shouldn't have. Maybe sometimes you should have. Just Like one thing that I always struggle with is or I've been struggling with specifically, is I feel like I know in some some areas I've been hunting hilly terrain I keep thinking, like I know where these deer are, but I keep spooking them and why am I doing that?

And it's like I can keep lying to myself and making some excuse, but it's like, Okay, but what am I doing wrong? Why do I keep doing this? You know? And I think I think, I think I've come up with a few answers on that, but you're gonna have to test it this year to see. But you know, it's just yeah, you gotta just be honest with yourself and like really break that down and to be to

be honest. That's pretty fun to me. I really like going back and looking at all those things that I questioned about what we were doing or mistakes and definitely make you learn. It's it's a nice place to be in where even when you make a major mistake, it doesn't like ruin your season where you're just like, okay, this you know this is this was always coming like at some point this was gonna hit me again and I was gonna do this. So on that note, what's

what's the one that haunts you the most? Which which big Buck encountered? Can you think back to that brings a little tier to your eye and you're like that one, I just blew it. There's two. There's two that were kind of like right in the same window. So I was in Ohio in two thousand twenty. It's spent quite a bit of time trying to find a hot spot during the rut. Like my style is kind of just cruised around, find a bunch of sign and start hanging out area more in a nutshell. And finally found it.

And the morning before we had seen at least man and this is abnormal compared to the other days that we have been hunting. We saw like five bucks do the same thing, essentially like cutting across this. We went there and set up. The next morning, we weren't seeing anything. It was going pretty slow and look down below us on the bench and a buck was cruising that bench parallel to the ridge top that we were right on the top of, and uh tried granting at him. He

didn't do anything. He just never really paid any attention to that. I don't know if he couldn't hear it or you know how that is where you're like, he's ship. Seems like he should have been out to hear it, but you don't really know. And he ended up making it past us, and we're sitting there contemplating, like should we chase this thing, which is my initial reaction always like just go for him. But side note, it had been seventy that whole week or ten days issue that

I was hunting there. It was seventy plus degrees, no wind at all, and just sunny and just beating down dead calm, toughest woods conditions I've hunted in up to this point, where there was no break and it didn't matter if it was first light or an hour, you know, hour after last light. Those leaves are loud and cuntry for every single day we were there, so you know, again my initial reaction is we'll just chase this, but

we'll catch heap with him. Well, pretty much right away it was like that's never gonna work because while he didn't hear our gup call, he's gonna hear you know, a couple of fools walking across these leaves. And we ended up deciding we're gonna rattle because okay, take the advantage that they have a sound and kind of used against them, and we just made a ton of noise,

Like a ton of noise. That's something I really like doing since I started ground time things really and then the calling, and how much more realistic you can make a sequence because you can add that ground noise. You can basically be a deer. As long as they can't see you, you can make all the same sounds they do. So we just started making a buck fight, and me

and Keith were up on this ridge just rolling around rattling. Well, when I had saw that buck, I put my bow down and it was behind the way I was facing rattling, and I rattled too long. And there's two there's two mistakes made. One I should have stopped the sequence earlier and listened, and two I should have not had the tambo behind me. So I got the bow behind me,

and I'm rattling too long. Stop rattling. And just as I stopped, I looked at my right and he's already at like ten yards like mouth open, has sprinted to us. And I stopped. He stops and he looks up there. He didn't see us, because you know, you're blind, and he looks around, he doesn't see anything, and he immediately just takes off run and right at us. So I don't even have time to turn in my setup. I had the cover to do it, but he was on

us in two seconds. And he was at like literally to five yards broadside and he's standing there looking at us like what the hell, and he blows and jumped down. He actually ran all the way around us. I was drawn on him. I finally got my boat, got drawn and then he's like straight behind me, but I can't point my bow that way because that's right where Keith is And the spot was so perfect. It's it's a

rare spot where we were on a ridge. It was really steep and the wind was just sailing away and he just never could smell us, so like he's doing this circle around us and I it was just it was all messed up as as soon as my bow was behind me. And that's someone that haunts me because it's like, you want to talk about it, gimme. But then so the reason I kind of lump it into

two is because something very similar than happened. It is a little bit shorter story, but we gave it a day, took a breather, and kind of did our what we

call the reset day. We're kind of get some sleep, get some work done, just reorganized and kind of clear your brain because that, I mean, let's be honest, set sucked and we ended up going back and we were up on that same ridge, but I guess further down the ridge and it seems like we should be seeing stuff, but then it was hot and we won't seeing anything, and we're like, you know what, let's move down close to where there's some water. It's a little bit cooler

down there. This is a great decision because as soon as we got down there, we got in this setup that was like loaded with signed first time we had been in that exact spot. It's like, this is gonna be sweet. And in my head, un visualized as buff walking right in front of us, you know, tended twenty yards perfect, there's all kinds of rubs going just exactly cross wind to us. Perfect and about one o'clock. This is November tenth, I think one o'clock just heard. You

don't hear it very often, but you do. Get ready. It's just this crazy grunt. I've really only ever heard it a couple of times, and when I do, it's been a big sum bit, you know, And he just goes and they're like whoa, like not even normal, And I can tell it's about a hundred hundred fifty yards kind of off to our left, down the same creek drainage that we're in, and I wait, keeps kind of dozing off. I'm like, dude, but just granted, like real loud,

something's going on. And uh, I don't know, maybe ten more minutes when by Any did it again, same spot, and within like five minutes, it was just like you could hear that classic buck just plowing through the woods. And here's this even bigger buck than the couple of days before, with the bow behind us, and he's coming right down the trail. He's coming straight towards where I think he's gonna come and turn broadside and go right

past us. And in my head, it's exactly what he's gonna do, getting ready to draw, getting ready to draw, when it just never stops and just keeps coming and the ends up at like five yards and I just never had clear there was nothing but dead branches between me and him. But I just never put the effort into clearing that spot off because I haven't never been in that exact spot. I didn't know that trail was as heavily used as it was until he went down it and uh yeah, that one got to buy. Look

it was the same deal, like what is that? And then boom he's gone. You know, had I just had even the slightest little opening at five yards, I was shot him no matter what the angle was, like he was slightly quartering too, but I mean he was seriously so damn close that those two hurt because they were just back to back and then it was like I had to leieve and and uh kind of and I ended up shooting one in gun season there a couple of a couple of weeks later with my friend Ben.

That was an awesome hunt and I would have never experienced that had I shot those two bucks. So that's the positive in the story. But in the moment, those ones were like what are you doing? Like just not just not totally prepared. The boat behind me is the one that's just like, yeah, that's foolish, because I well, I know, I think a lot of pride of being like prepared at all times. It was not at all, so whatever, But those are the ones that hunt you, right,

you know. I mean if it's a situation where he comes in hot and he might catch your wind and it's you know, unfolds fast and it doesn't break your way here like well, okay, but when it's like he's dead to rights and you make some dumb decision and it costs you, that's that hurts so much. You said something there before we get into the where I really want to go with this, you said something that's important.

When you're talking about, you know, being on the ground and calling that buck and you just just reading the conditions and go and listen, you know, the way I want a hunt him ain't gonna work. We're not. You're never gonna sneak up on a deer like that. And so you go the opposite direction and and make some noise.

And I know, people, you know that this is not a new thing like this has been around a while where people are like, listen, if you're gonna rattle, I make it sounds like there's two bucks fighting, And I think I think a lot of times people don't, like you don't see buck fights that often. When you do, holy sh it, it's like, you know, I'll never forget

I had. I was on the river out in North Dakota one time and I had two bucks coming behind me and fight in the river, and I think it's the most noise I've ever heard animals make in the wild, other than maybe like l coming down the mountainside or something when they come in hot, like it's like a boulder rolling down. But those those bucks, they're the noise they made fighting in that shallow river and all those rocks clanking and they fought. I was like, this is

like so different than every calling sequence. You know what I mean. And you know I mean, if you're a deer and you live out there all night long with all those other deer, when you hear buck fights, you hear buck fights. You don't hear like tink tink tink like little or that plastic e like sound with no ground noise. It's like, no wonder that doesn't work. And

I mean that's not to put anybody at fault. It's just because, like you said, it is hard to expeare arians butt fights, and until you do, you don't really even understand at all how crazy it is. It is crazy.

I had I had a moment. Man. This was like two thousand and like two or something, and I was hunting in Minnesota for the rut, and I remember I hung the stand in the dark in this place I want to be, this ridge top and you know, then I was like hunting any buck and I got set up, you know, I got light out, and I was like, I gotta I had a bunch of ship in front of me that I had to get rid of because I'm like if I got to shoot over here, and I'm like, how do you do this and not make

a bunch of noise? And at that time, I had like very little confidence in calling. But I'm like, I'm just gonna break this while I grunt and maybe somebody will here it and think there's a chase going on. So I started grunning and I broke these branches off and I looked up in this came running, just running, and he stopped right in front of me. I shot him and he ran down the hill and died. And at that time, you know, and he wasn't very big, but it was like, holy shit, like I can't believe

that work. And you know, like when when you think about stuff like that, it's like, so sometimes we're so cautious. And I think I think that's one thing that you've shown people, maybe more than anybody in the hunting industry, is like, listen, you've got to be smart about this,

but you don't have to be overly cautious. We've been fed this line that you're like, you got to preserve dear movement and you can't do this, and you can't do that, and you can't blow them out of there, and you've got to be like, you know, so like surgically precise, and you're out there and you're just like,

I'm just gonna chase him. I mean, but you know, and it's like the danger with that is it looks when you see like an edited version of it, it looks easy because you see it work out or you know, you see like the the encounters, and it's like an experienced thing because you know how to move and you know when to move and to read the conditions and stuff. So it's not there's there's sort of a I don't want to say, like a disingenuous look to it, but

it's like an incomplete picture. So it goes both ways. You know, well, and I think it's one of these things where I still haven't fully explained or been able to figure out how to explain how to start that or how to break into that. But like, I mean, it kind of taps into the topic that you you wanted to talk about it like giving bucks like all this credit, like that they're they're so they're so smart, and don't get me wrong, they are a mature buck

is smarter than most deer. But with that being said, he's still just a deer. He's still just a deer. Even a five, even a nine year old buck has been around the block a bunch of times. He's still a deer. And I think that, um, you know, just understanding, like based off of your experiences, what they can see, what are the things that they can see, How easy is it for them to smell you, how much nois

does it take to catch their attention? And then you know, just learning how to finesse those things is something that only happens once you just dive into that head first and stop bringing about hey like I'm gonna I'm gonna spook deer, But so is a guy walking to his tree stand, Like there's no difference. Still just a hunter in the woods to theas deer. It's no different. And in some situations, I think it's a hunter in the woods, but it's less it's so much less predictable that that's

to your advantage, even when spooking deer. Right, So, you know, you think about most bow hunters there they're setting in, setting up in stationary positions, a lot of times in a tree, a lot of times in a permanent spot where I mean you think about a big buck, You're in his home and all of a sudden, you know, there's all this grounds on the ground, there's this new metal piece sticking to a tree, you know, and then when every time he smells that hunter, it's right in

that same spot. You know. That's where I think it's more dangerous, truly endear smarter than us in that way than just me randomly running through a betting area, you know, or I don't say running, but you know, blowing up a betting area on accident. It's like, yeah, you know, they're kind of come back because they're not like that's not predictable, Like how are they going to predict that again?

You know what I mean? Anyway, well, and I mean it is true and it you know, one of the reasons that we do give them so much credit is because we tend to try to hunt them where we want to hunt. And this is you know, I talked to any may about this, and this is like so common, and you know, the message from a lot of like Public Land killers is like if you do what everybody else does, it's not gonna work because they have you

dialed that way. And I always like I've really started to think and think about it, like you know, we're the scariest predator they have out there. We don't think about it that way, but like imagine, I mean, just imagine like the average guns season out Like how terrifying that was. I mean, you've got dudes everywhere in trees with high powered rifles or shotguns, we're depending on where

you're at. And then all of a sudden, you've got a line of seven of them walking through the woods in the corn and you've got guys on the end. Like imagine a scenario where you're, you know, like you're a prey animal and you encounter that ship, you know,

and so like they're gonna dial into it. They're just gonna go man when you know, even especially like the things they learned about us after dark, like the scent we leave and oh, this corner of this field on public Land has fresh human scent every freaking time I come out here. So I think probably I'm not coming out here in daylight, you know, And I just think

it's like sometimes as simple as that. And I know, I know there's individual variables out there, but really, like if you're if you're taking the easy access and you're sitting the places that you want to sit because you can see a lot, you're probably sitting in a place where deer have you. You and everybody who has done that for however many years pretty much dialed in. Now you don't see him every time by any means when

you do this. But in my opinion, to hunt a whitetail buck, find like stick habitat that is tough to access for one reason or another. And I mean not to dive into the to the you know, creative or tough access thing, but like think outside of your out of the box, look at what the majority of people are doing, and if they're doing something that's not leading them to that thick area, there's going to be about their period like it's not and and I mean that's

the most dumbed down version of it. There's so many fine details that you can take into consideration, but that's your starting point. And then just go in there and have confidence and try something that is different or put yourself in, you know, a situation that you haven't maybe before. And honestly, to me, that's when I started doing stuff that was off ball and I quit karen at all about what I was supposed to be doing or you know, thinking about it a certain way. That's when better things

started happening. And even even you know, when I look back on I mean, are there's so many hunts man where it's straight up bumped a buck, straight up bumped him, And that's how I found out that he was there, like watching him run away, like he knows I'm there

and he's going away. And now whether I shoot him in that same spot where you know, a little bit different spot or whatever, or see him even but like like we just give him so much credit that it's like once they you spook him, once it's over, it's like, well not necessarily, if you've got enough room to roam, like he's probably still I mean, he's definitely still gonna just be on that area somewhere, So what's the next spot?

I Mean it's just like I could look back on the wall here and just say that's that this one than I bumped um one a bump bump bumped. You know, it's just like it's pretty ridiculous. Yeah. Well, and you know what I always think about with that too, because I you know, when I grew up, when I first started hunting, that was a big deal. Like you don't freaking do that. Like if you if they know you're there,

you're done. You know, like it's over. And you know, as you get older and you start getting more experience out there, like they don't go anywhere, like I mean, that's where he lives, and so he might change his behavior where he lives to some extent, but he's given you such a valuable piece of information because he was there today in these conditions and you saw him. So you know, like now it's your move, and always think

about it. Like we we do a lot of rabbit hunting in like January and February, and you know, like we look at white tails, were like they're so smart,

they're so okay, g there's such survivor machines. And then you go push a cotton tail rabbit out of like a you know, cattail slew or like an overgrown homestead and if you don't kill him you're not sitting there thinking like, oh, well, that rabbit's never gonna be back right like you, I think tomorrow that son of a bitch is gonna be right here, and maybe when we

push him he'll squirt out a different way. Or you know, the same thing with the pheasants on public land is like you you run through slew one way one day, If you go back and do it the next day, it usually doesn't work as well. But those pheasants are there, so now instead of just blowing out the end, they you know, they snuck to the edge of the open water and they waited, or you know, all of a sudden they flush behind you and they're just learning from you.

But they're there and huntable. And I think quite too, like I think out too, Like I think there's the same thing like, yeah, we we look at them like they got us really figured out on a level of thinking that we're they don't have, Like they have survivor instincts and they can learn. But it's not like, you know, we got a lot of advantages between our ears. Even the dumbest hunter out there is a hell of a

lot smarter than the smartest buck. Right, And I think it's I think that voice though, or where where what really separates folkses is when you start making the choice to learn from those mistakes or you learn from that and you say, hey, what can I do differently or what like Okay, he was here, and what's he going to do next? You know, maybe you have enough time to hunt him at day, Which that's one thing that blows my mind, is like to me, to me, I guess,

let me back up to me more and more. There's no better confidence boost than seeing Bucks in an area. Like if you're seeing Bucks do something or whatever, it's like, okay, like I just need to go get in there and just start, you know, committing some effort to that. And if that's the case, then you know it's all about just making fine decisions from there. But like there's so many times I see, like especially on videos, where somebody else see a buck and it's just like, okay, that's

the target buck. But then they continue to just like sit there and wait. And it's like, especially in bow season, I think there's a lot of times or the reason that you just saw him is just because they already know that that's where you're going to be. Like especially with a bow. Now, they get quick when they start hearing, get quick to change when they hear guns go off.

But like if you're bow hunting and they just kind of make that loop around your stand and that stand has been there for forever, especially if it's a buffet, you know, if it's like wait, maybe he's actually this patterned me And I think you know, just to think critically of your mistakes or not even your mistakes, but you're maybe laughing success or maybe not the success that you want. Just thinking outside the box a little bit,

because again, you are smarter than them. Like you can literally bump on it a day and that be his downfall. I mean it happens all the time, and it's just it's so funny. Though. I guess the bumping thing is something that just it's honestly something I need to get back to a little bit more. I need to get a little looser and just start you know, not playing don't play things cautious. And I think that's the other thing too, where I mentioned he find a thick spot.

I mean this is very general, but thick spot where not a lot of people are going. There's gonna be a buck there, don't worry about like playing that spot super safe because you're probably good enough to find another one. So if you mess it up, if you hunt it ultra aggressive and you do feel like you messed it up, just go to the next spot, go to a different spot, and just keep moving. And that's something that I find when I feel like I'm making mistakes, especially after the season,

I can really break it down. It's like maybe I just spent too much time in that spot and I wasn't looking at it, you know, I should have just not tiptoed around there, just either went somewhere else or just went straight to the money spot and then got out of there and then with the different spot. Anyway,

I'm getting winded. Well, you know. You know where where I feel that the most, like currently in my my white tail hunting is is situations where I'm like close but not right on where I need to be, you know what I mean. So it's not like I'm not talking about like you're sitting on a hundred acre cornfield that's been cut and they come out on the far end, and like like North Dakota last year, for example, I had one buck that was like he was in play and he was you know, he was a nice deer.

He wasn't a giant. He's like er in public land, and he was like the guy living there. And I'm like, he's the one I'm targeting. And I went in on him to kill him on a water hole because of where he was. And he came in the first night and he was like six ft from being in my shooting lane and he winded me because it was just wonky, and I just I was pushing it whatever. I blew him out, and I knew, I knew I was like on the edge right, Like I knew this was like

it might break my way, might break his way. But I was also like, you're kind of sitting where you want to sit when you probably should be like fifty yards over there. And it's not right over the water, it's over one of the routes to it, but it was right. And I sat there the next morning and I watched a bunch of deer go by there, and I'm like, you know this, and yet you're like just content to sit far enough off where it could work for you instead of just getting down freaking moving. Yeah,

and and like what's what are you? What are you sacrificing, Like, what's the worst that happens? Like in your brain. To me, that's what always happens is it's like, oh, another deer

is gonna get down wind of me or something. It's like, so, yeah, if that's where the buck is gonna walk, be able to shoot that at ten yards, you know, but but go on, sorry, but I mean, it's just it's the little stuff like that, and you know, it's settling, Like I think there's like so much danger in settling on anything like that, because you know, when I think about most of the public land bucks I've killed, it's it's almost always like an observation and then a move and

a kill. It's you know, sometimes you get it right right away. Sometimes it's a grind on day seven or whatever like it. It goes a lot of different ways. But when I feel like I'm in the zone and I'm making it work, it's almost always like here's my spot, I'm watching, I see something, they give you, they give you something, and then you're on the next day and

it just happens that way. And I think one of the things I want to ask you about this is like, do you feel when you're out there because you come from Iowa. You come from you know, like Bill Winkie's world a long time ago, and you know, like the name bucks and grow them and and like the totally different style from what you guys have done on th HP.

I think that there's like a a level of like you kind of unshackle yourself when you go to public land because you don't have that history and you're not a one buck hunter. You're like, where's the spot? And you said this earlier, like where's this thick spot that a buck lives? Because that buck that's in there is probably big enough to make you happy. And you're not

like I gotta find X amount of hit listers. You're like, I gotta find a spot to hunt deer, and I'm going to accept the fact whether I'm in Georgia or Nebraska or whatever, that the buck that is here, he's gonna be good enough. And you'll decide in the moment. But usually when you find the spot, the buck lives up to your expectations. And you know, I mean, if

you have a range, that's better. This is what This is what I when I feel like I'm hunting my best or us as a group, we're hunting our best is when we have this mentality of we're hunting where we think the biggest buck in the damn county lives, but if a nice one comes in, we're shooting him, you know what I mean. It's like whatever that means. A decent one comes in, you know, whatever that means. That made very place to place. But like it's it's

just so important to have that mentality. I think, hunt where you think there's a big one and like you said, there's probably a day and good chance he's going to be there. And honestly, in my experience, a lot of times, I'm so pleasantly surprised. There's been a lot of situations where I'm like, oh, I didn't think that that was going to come out of here necessarily, But I'm plenty happy with that, and like yeah, you just know, you just know in the moment too, it's like oh yeah,

good enough, like shooting well. And I mean but at that point there, that that was something that I encountered when I really started hunting public land too, was like, man, what's supposed to be here versus what I'm seeing is is better and and it's like everywhere you go, like I shouldn't say that. A lot of places you go to and you know, like you talk to the locals and they're like, it's not worth it, and you don't know if they're full of ship or if they really

believe it or whatever. Who knows. But so often, you know, there's like a stigma attached to a certain place, and it's always always comes from the people who live there who have kind of written it off, and then you go in and it's like, jeez, you know, like everybody talks about genetics and being in the Trophy States, but I'm like, you get dear to three years old, which happens everywhere. I don't care where you live. You're already talking about deer that are gonna probably get most people's

heart rate up, and like be a great deer. Whether it's a hundred inch or a hundred and thirty inch or whatever, ninety I don't care. It's all situational and they're out there, and I think I think that's like so important, Like I think that's one of the things you guys showed, and I think what's crazy about it is like, yeah, you guys are good hunters, but you're also just showing people what's out there, And so I think people are often like, well, Jesus, what's their secret?

Like why why are they capable of doing this everywhere? It's like, yeah, they're good hunters, but they're also just showing you what you didn't think was there because they're out there doing this, and that's an important lesson. Yeah, And it's weird too because with public land there's generally enough ground that you find something. Like I said, it's better than what you expect because and and again, in my experience, if I'm covering a bunch of ground, I'm

finding stuff. Eventually will find something. It doesn't always happen on the second day. And like I like to think of every trip that I make is like we're talking earlier about being relatable. I like to think seven days is fairly realistic. You know, I don't. I don't technically have like a home base for whitetail anymore. You don't have a home play. I don't have out my back door scalt Like every time I go to Scout Dear, it's more than five hours away. You know, at minimum,

that's very minimum. That's like the closest white tail stuff. Everything else is you know, pretty much on the fly, So I like to think in seven days that's pretty realistic to somebody's trip for the year. So in most most of the time, I'm trying to fit that into seven days. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less. But for the most part, the progression goes like, find find areas that are of interest, drive around them, spend a day covering ground around them to see if what the access

is like, what the neighborhood looks like. Then go put boots on the ground and just cover ground and just try to find where there's this sign that's telling me there is something there that's something I want to chase, and eventually you find it. There's a lot of places that yeah, it's like you get in there, it's like, oh, so this old stands, and you know there's four wheeler trails where there shouldn't be, and you know there's all

this hunter signed. But then all of a sudden, if you cover enough ground and you do that initial legwork to kind of find places that are maybe off wall a little bit, eventually you find something that tells you it's like, oh, this has got it. And honestly, a lot of times more than I think it's going to have more than one, you know, you get back there, nurse.

I mean, it's an example I used earlier when we're talking about the mistakes that those two bucks is two bucks that I would have been more than happy to shoot. We're on the same ridge system, Like they were right in the same area. They were within probably within four hundred yards of those two encounters were. And it's like in those two bucks were different bucks and what we saw the day prior, so there was like four in there that we would have, you know, been happy to shoot.

So it's just I don't know, I think that's and you know, there's also a lot of I hear a lot about states like I actually won't even throw anybody under the bus. I just will save them from it. But you know, you know, you're kind of a typical states that you hear the most like kind of grape them about. I guess like, oh, there's no bucks here, There's no And it's like you start looking at the map there and it's like there's so much public land

that there's absolutely a lot of mature bucks. I mean, anywhere where there's mountains in the Eastern United States, there's gonna be hammers in there because there's just not that many people like, you know, even more so than like an elk country. So Elk country, for example, is super extreme, super rugged. But like the people that go out there to hunt elk all have that mentality that we're going

anywhere where there's elk. It doesn't matter if it's you know, twelve thousand feet or if it's down at nine thousand, We're going anywhere and everywhere. White tail hunters don't do that. If there's a mountain that that is that you know, three some foot and it's super rugged, bunch of finger ridges off the main ridge. I mean, there's magnum bucks in there. Like they may not be they may not scork d but there's bucks that are probably gonna dive

old age in that stuff. Well, and I know, and you know, I think Pennsylvania is such a good example of that. I was just going to name that one, but it really is, because you know, I grew up hearing about Pennsylvania and how many hunters are out there, in the density of hunters and just like like an insurmountable amount of pressure, and I know, I know something's changed out there, But man, I have some buddies you know, Clinton Campbell and Aaron Heppler and somebody's dudes out there.

They're scouting their asses off out there, and they are on big deer all the time. And I mean, like, dear that most people, if they were sitting on a tree stander and Iowa, are going to shoot if it comes down the trail. And you just look at that and you go, yeah, I mean, like that's that's make

anybody happy. And I know, I honestly think that one of the worst things we do about deer, you know, kind of not only given them too much credit, but also just like just like buying into the negativity around every freaking opportunity so fast when you look at that and go like is this true? Is this really true?

That you know, this six thousand acre chunk of public land here has no big ones in it because of the right bahrners kill them all and it you know, like the best example is that, like when you hear somebody from like Nebraska or like South Dakota complain about that like, oh, you know, our gun season sucks. It's just it's brown, it's down and there's no big bucks in there. And I'm like, are you sure like have you driven around in August and looked at some of

these places like they're there somewhere, you know. But if you if you haven't made up in your head that it isn't gonna work for you. It's not gonna freaking work,

you're not gonna find it. Yeah, well, and and it's not it's not necessarily something that I mean again, when you compare things to what you're seeing kind of mainstream media too, it's it's so much of a different situation for the most part that it's like you're watching people just like I don't know, look at this bean field and watch an hour before dark, you know, a handful of does, a couple of small bucks, and you know, one big giant body, big antler buck come out. It's like, man,

it's so easy there. And it's like, yeah, honestly, it probably is easier situation, but that doesn't mean it can't be done in your spot. It's just going to take a different learning curve. And like that's where you know, it really comes down to all hunting, just getting out there and trying. You're never gonna get any better if you just say, oh, I only want to wait for the good stuff. That's just I mean, that's just I don't know, it's unrealistic and not get the hunt as

much as you want. You're not gonna get the become as good of a hunter as you want if you are only waiting for the good. It's just like we were talking about elk before this, and it's like you could be the type of person that's like, you know what, I want to hunt milk every year, and when I'm done hunting milk thirty years from now, four years, when I'm dead. That's what I'm hoping to be done, is

when I'm dead. But you know, I could sit there and wait for the best opportunities, the best tags, weight put in preferenced points, and draw these tags every five or six years, and maybe on my wall in my trophy room that I'm showing off to my buddies. Maybe

that makes me look like the better hunting. But if I'm actually going every year, getting more experienced, getting more days in the field, and I maybe have a couple of rag horns to show for it, in my opinion, the person with the rag horns, that's the person that's that's the better hunter. He's getting the experience. Not to say that you know, everybody likes to shoot a big buck,

everybody likes shoot a big bowl. But like, at the end of the day, getting experienced shooting deer, that's that's the most valuable thing that you could do as a hunter. And sometimes it doesn't always look pretty for you know, like it would as the guy in the magazine that's got the hundred back. It's just like it's not always like that, and that's okay that that doesn't mean you're not a good hunter carry either, And I think keeping that in mind too, he gets the ship. Anybody thinks, man,

that's the thing who cares with it. And unfortunately to be a big a good hunter these days because because of pictures and social media, and it's the kind of the idea around hunting is like, unfortunately a lot of people believe you have to kill big bucks and that's just not true. Well and I mean the reality is it's not going to work out anyway, yeah, you know, And hunting is such a weird thing because we don't we look like everybody has like the same chance and

the same skill level and stuff. It's just not true. And I was thinking about this the other day. I can't remember how it came up. But we're talking. I was talking to my daughters about artists, like you know, people who create different ships, and I was like, some people just have it and some people don't, you know, Like I always joke my wife hates it, but I was joke like I don't. The only thing I'm manly

with is hunting and fishing. Like if you were like, hey, go change the oil in your truck, I like, I don't know how to do that. I'm gonna screw that up. Like I mean like in YouTube it or whatever. Like we all have our different talents and like you just might not You might not be good enough to go out and kill big bucks everywhere. Well you also might just not have set your your life up in a

situation where you get as much opportunity either. Like that's another factor that Like last time we did a podcast, We're talking with Mark and he asked like the question of you know, if you only have one morning to hunt. I I thought about that for years. It's like, yeah, stuff would look a lot different for me if I had my life set up differently. And I think that, like,

you know, you look at every person's hunting situation. Everybody's in a different situation, different years of experience, different influences, different I mean, just think about like having a good hunting mentor versus being you know, from the time of your little kid to the time you know, you start going on your own handful of years versus somebody that's like out of college twenty two years old, twenty five years old, and you're like, I think I might start hunting.

Think about how different that situation is. And if you start to immediately measure yourself against other people, yeah, you just start doing In my opinion, that's just the wrong thing do in general, because you can't measure yourself because your situation is not necessarily the same. YEA, think about somebody who you know is hunting in the mountains of North Carolina compared to somebody who you know, all of a sudden, like just what happens, chance landed, you know,

this big property to hunt in Kansas. I mean, think about how much different those two situations look. And if there's if the guy from North Carolina's sitting here looking at the dough that he killed with his bow and he's comparing it too. You know, this guy that shopped this big back on his property in Kansas. Is that the same comparison. It's like, in my opinion, it isn't. But you also can't get down that rabbit hole of

comparing either. That's why you just gotta worry about your ship and keep going, just keep having fun, you know. I think I think one of the dangerous things that's happened, you know, with with hunting media and just like the amount of content that's out there now is like I've

noticed this, especially like turkey hunting. I take a lot of people out turkey hunting, and you know, you get somebody who's only been doing it a couple of years or whatever, but they've got like you know, they're all cameled up and they have the gear and everything, and you talk to him, and inevitably they watch you eyes, they watch meat eater. They they're consumers, and you know, they're they're almost trying to like learn vicariously through the content.

And and like some of the content is really good and like you can learn some stuff from it, and but I think like the main commonative it is just just inspiration, like go and try this ship on your own and learn on your own. And I think I feel like, you know, like when I was coming up,

you didn't have a choice. You just did that, like because that's you know, we didn't have the same kind of content level that we have now, and it was just like, well, you just go hunt, like you just go go look for him in the summer and sneak around and you glass them and in the fall you have one tree stand and you just move around and whatever. You know, like you just learn. And now there's sort of this illusion that you can just like learn this

by osmosis. And I think that like the best thing about it is like, yeah, you can get some great ideas, like you listen to and you may tell his stories like you're gonna get some ship out of it. That's that works for you, like no question. But there's also just like the inspiration level just like go out and do this. And I really think, like you know kind of what we're talking about earlier, and you said, like go find that concentration to bucks or go find that

sign and the thick stuff, and you're gonna be around him. Like, man, the best part about deer hunting to me now is that feeling of getting into that spot. I don't know who's there, I see the sign, I got the you know, it gives me the warm and fuzzies, and you get up in that tree and yeah, sometimes you blank, sometimes you get busted. Sometimes like a lot of times it doesn't work out. But that feeling of like I'm I

think I'm on it right now, that's the best. Like it's it's different than you know, if you go into a situation where it's like an easier hunt and whatever. People want whatever they want. But like for me, I've done some of the easy ones and it gets fun to see big bucks and kill one and not have to work too hard. But it's not the same feeling as like, man, when you just like I just I

figured this out. This is the spot that makes my nuts buzz, and you get in there freaking love it because you're learning any I mean, you get your askick all the time, but you know, like you you you at least brushed up against something worthwhile there something that like I don't know, I M I know this is very abnormal. And this is just the personal thing that I would challenge somebody that maybe wants to get more out of one thing. It's like, if you want to

get more out of it, consider ditching trail cameras. I know there's a lot of people that don't use them, but like it's so popular these days, and I think to myself, like there's nothing I want less than a trail camera. I hate those things. I mean I hate them.

I hate finding them in the woods. I hate I I know that's abnormal, but they just drive me crazy because I think of all the things that I get to learn that somebody else just like comes in here and slaps like this, like I'm getting to learn it on my feet, and then I get to make this prediction. But then somebody else is just using this, like imagine how much you can learn from that, and then it takes away from what I like to get out of it.

So for me, it's not necessarily about other people. It more it's mostly just about like I don't want to do that. I don't want to get all that info when I'd rather just make a guess, see what comes in if it excites me, make the shot or whatever, and just move on. And it's like the trail cameras I think are Man, they're a weird thing. It kind of starts to cross the line for me of like I don't know, taking some sort of advantage to a different you know, it's like it just changes the advantage.

I actually think they also they change. They can if you understand them. I think they can really help, but I think in another way, they can also really hurt you, and they can really be this disease. And I feel like I'm happy that I just decided that I was gonna I shouldn't say I never use info from trail cameras, but it's not ever really anything that I'm using directly from my hunts. It's more like my buddy ran this camera.

I'm looking at the pictures after the fact and just looking at that, not necessarily ever using it from my own situation. I haven't ever like I shouldn't say, ever, last I did was like and fifteen I remember really have an amount, But I just think, but but that's what you learned. I mean, I think I think that they're amazing on private land in certain situations, like you can you can dial and ship real well. When I see them, I'll never forget. So when I do that.

Last Iowa take two years ago, I had three spots that had a concentration and bucks in them, like they were just they were on and one of them was just like a classic river bottom set up, and it was it didn't have as many bucks in it, but it had a ton of deer. It was just it was dumb, like you you know, like you just walked in there. There's CRP, there's some hardwood, and there's a river like and it's Iowa. I went in there, and there was there were guys hunting in there, like I

wasn't the only one. And there was a trail camera set up, uh right by this guy's stand on this like super obvious crossing through through these this little woodline in the RP field, and I just kind of wanted to hold up a sign in front of it and be like they're here, dude, like come on in, like you don't need to see anything more like look around. There was freaking rubs and scrapes everywhere. And you know, the first night I sat in there, I had fourteen deer come through and I was, I was, I was

a little bit awful where he was. But it's the same area and you know, like when you walk in there and there's the sign is incredible. And this was this was opening weekend, This was October one, you know,

and I just look at that. I'm like, you're gonna come in and check that and be behind the eight ball on this, probably because me and a bunch of other people are hunting in here and you're gonna be looking at intel from three weeks ago, and yeah, you're gonna have inventory and you're gonna be like this big buck was here, but so was this dipshit who walked by in first light and this guy and like you it's it's like that's not the situation for it, probably,

you know, yeah, yeah, And I just it just it's one of these things like I guess it can be used. I mean there, I guess that's the thing. To me, they're just so there's such a weird I don't know. Here's where I've really got. It used to not be that much of a problem for me to where I wasn't really that bothered by it. But when it gets to a point where they're just everywhere you go, that

starts to become a problem. And I've funded some places where I'm walking down every single ridge in the timber and they are literally lying down the ridge, and it's like like to me, that starts to become it just becomes so strange, especially on public land, where it's like I know this is I'm probably gonna get a hell lot of hate for this, but it's just like I know that's the norm is to be buind trail cameras, but like as soon as I see my Boddy start to do that, I tell them I don't like that.

I don't like to like, I don't want to be fine your cameras laying around everywhere out there, and it's just like it's just another piece of woods trash to me, just another thing that people will leave out there, just put in let deer know that, hey, we're actually out

here hunting you now, you know. And it's just I don't know that it it's just something that recently has become more and more annoying to me, where it's like they just a popping up everywhere, like everywhere, and then it kind of becomes this thing to where it's like somebody's like reserving their little area, you know. On public land, it's like, especially when you put five down the ridge, it's like, well, if I'm gonna be hunting, oh I'm gonna be doing is walking in front of your camera

every day. It's like that's not man, I know that that part. I mean, but that's what gets a banned, right when you see the airs on a situation with the water holes and stuff, because you know, there is an issue with claiming spots out there on public land, and you know some states, you know, some states you can't use them on public and that doesn't seem to deter anybody hardly because everywhere but it is, you know,

it it's rough. But I also think because people lean on them so heavily, you can you can use that to your advantage, you know, like I mean, because you look at that and go, if that's your primary scouting strategy, you're missing a lot. And you and I agree, Well, I was just gonna say, like in this specific example where like we found all these so actually one of the bucks that I shot um a couple of years ago,

we were scouting this area. I don't know if it was actually I actually think it was after we shot the buck, but we shot this buck back. It was one of these situations where it was like we picked the spot, we went to it, he was, and he was there, and we actually bumped him and then shot him later that night. Everything that I've been talking about as far as like picked spot, trust it, it's hard to get to he's going to be there. While we

hunted there, it wasn't really much hunting. Sign Hunter signed in that area, but then we moved so later in the season, I was hunting filming in that same area and I was with my buddy and we were closer to the access point and we just we're going down different ridges and that's when we found one example where we found a bunch of trail cameras and it was like, if you take this piece of public land, you put access at point A, and then at point B is

all these trail cameras. The buck was at point C and we bypassed it the first time we went in there and went straight to point C. Killed a buck and that, but point B there's all these cameras. And I'm not saying that, you know, it's just it's not saying the buck didn't ever spend time there. But it's just like to me, it's just another thing to add

pressure onto an area too. It's this is attatchment with a trail camera, especially when you've got that many up a mount there and stands scattered into it as well. It's just it's just like you said, I don't know

that that's the best application for it. It's like, if I was ever going to run a trail camera, I would put it in the deepest, darkest hole that I never wanted to go to leave it for an entire season, in the most hidden spot where I don't think anybody could ever see, and then I would just like not come get it through a year, you know what I mean,

and just use that for the following season. But even then, it's like I just still I personally, I feel like my skills is an out you know, woodsman, I guess or increased if I avoid using those things. Yeah, well, I think I've got to the same place. I still use them, you know, on some of my private ground because I just like it, and especially with the girls, and I know I'm gonna take the girls to blinds. I have set up like I have fun with that.

But I noticed that I went through a phase where I got to rely on on them and I felt like I was behind the eight ball all time, and I was just like, I don't like I knew it, Like I'm like, you're leaning on this too heavy and

you're not having a very good year. And you know when you think about like, if you have private land and you have access to every freaking tool we have what you do so you can run trail camras, you can set stands, ladder stands, blinds, whatever the hell you want, and you're having worse hunts than when you travel on public land and you're in the moment for four or

five days. There's a lesson there and that hit me over the head, probably like six years ago or something where I was like, not only am I having more fun where I'm just freelancing it and figure out something in the moment I'm doing, I'm killing bigger deer and like more consistently. And then it's like it's an eye opener because you go, why why would this be? And it's you know, like I've told this on here before,

but I'll never forget. I was in North Dakota one time and there was a couple of guys, a couple other guys from Minnesota with their camp next to us, and you know, they were big buck to the nth Degree're talking about bucks they've seen all over the place and absolute dipshit. But just anyway, Uh, they they came out there. They had kayaks, they had everything, and they

were running trail cameras up and down the river. And I'm sitting here, going, you guys have four days and every quarter of a mile here is a peak you can sit on and look over two miles of this fricking river. Like you can get more intel with a spotting scope in one night then you'll get with trail cameras in three weeks. There, Like it's not the right tool for the job. And you know they were. They'd go up, paddle out and find a crossing, put a put a camera on there, so the very spot that

they wanted or that the deer would go. Now you've left your scent there, you've walked up on the bank and you know, like you've probably knocked down some weeds or whatever. And then you're like, I hope within the next couple of days, I'm going to get a picture of when I want to go to it, and I'm gonna go there and hunt it. Like I'm like it's

a lost cause. And they left. Yeah, well and it's so norm Like I said, it's just like it's just what the hunting industry is doing and telling you, and it's like so much of a content now, Like get online and start scrolling, and you're gonna see a trail camera. Like you follow any hunting page or anything, you're gonna

start seeing trail camera pictures pop up. And I guess, to me, it's just it's just not You could make this sit here and say listen to all that I'm saying too and say all trail care zact against trail cameras. Like he doesn't like, you know, he's saying that's an unfair advantage, but he's using on X. You could say the same thing about on X. I mean, yeah, it's made things a hell of a lot easier for whatever reason.

Personally that doesn't cross a line for me, but for some reason, the trail And it's not just the trail cameras. I think, being um, it's not all about like one thing with the trail cameras. I guess it's like there's a bunch of things that I think are disadvantages to m to using them. There's also advantages to using them. But it's also just like mentally, it's this easy way out.

It's like this easy way to just like kind of lean on this a little bit and then it's also you know, gonna hurt you in the heat of the moment when really nice Buffy would shoot every day of the week comes by, but because you've got this one stupid picture of this really big buff that you're gonna like miss that opportunity or you're gonna be like, oh, you know, I gotta go sit over here because this camera was hot last week it's the weekend or whatever,

and it's like, well, that happened, Like that already happened, you know, like that's the thing. And especially when you get into self cameras, that gets even hilarious. It's like, oh, we're gonna go And I mean, don't get me wrong, you could certainly use a self camera to your advantage if you can recognize what's happening in the situation of the picture. For example, if there's a buck with the dough and you're right next door, it's easy he run over there and he's you know, he's gonna be much

more easy to make a stock on, for example. But if a buck's cruising and he cruises past your self camera, so yeah, good, dude's gone already, you know what I mean, and you can chase your tail doing that, and that's one of the Jake and I did that last year when I was filming him. We just like I felt like there's times where we were kind of just like chasing this picture because he likes to run trail cameras and I don't, but I, you know, I tag along

for whatever. And it's just like, you know, one of those deals that it kind of gets down to, it's like, just go with your Gut's better off just to go hunt with your gut. Just go to the places again, like we talk about man again, but all back to note, don't give them so much credit. Find the spot that makes sense, and I promise there'll be a buff there. Well, if you find ten of them, that could be your whole seat. You know, that could be your whole season.

But just hind them all aggressively, go straight to the X and go hunted. He's probably going to be in there somewhere. I look at trail cameras right now, like because I do have fun running them for my daughters. I love it because every deer is a shooter and they just to get to get them pumped. It's so easy. But I always look at that like like I look

at the colors for dog training. You know, if you if you look in the hunting dog world, you almost won't find a professional trainer who doesn't send every dog home with an e coller, Like that's how they they got to get results in eight weeks or twelve weeks. And that's the easiest way to do it. And they're like a great tool if you know how to use it, and you use it right with a dog that already

understands everything and you've at the process down. But then the average person doesn't want to train a dog very well, and they go, this is a shortcut to a trained dog, and it's not. This is a shortcut to forced compliance that's only going to happen when that caller is on there typically. I mean it varies, you know, but it's not it's not getting you where you think it's gonna get you if you don't use it really well. And I look at that with trail cameras too, like their

fogg they're they're a band aid, they're a shortcut. They can be a badass tool if you use them to complement a whole scouting strategy and you're like or even just for like you know, just just to get the confidence ut there you're like, jeez, there's like six bucks in this area that I would shoot, Like that's that's pretty good if it gets you up up in the morning.

But it does, I think. I think though it starts to I think it's so easy to get in your head in a negative way to where it's just like, oh, I'm not getting pictures, Like I know that there's been examples with our group where pad of camera spot it's not picking up ship and then in reality there's bucks crawling all over just in the other corner of the piece that you can't see from the camera, And I think stuff like that like and ultimately for me, I truly believe that I will end up with more, like

I guess, a better experience to where it will help me in the future without them, Right Like, if I'm seeing this sign and I'm making that decision Okay, this is where I'm gonna set up today, and I make that decision just purely based off sign, I just think that that's more advantageous in the long run than trying to use this trail cameras like a short term solution to like, oh, I'm gonna find these bus this camera or however you're choosing to use it and not like again,

I'm not saying that. It's like I I said, I hate them at the beginning, and I kind of regret saying that. It's like I understand that people like them, I personally don't, and I think it's just one of those deals. I also like being different. I kind of like just you know, stirring the pot a little bit, like leave your trail camera at home and see you like and just see what you can come up with, Like you'll be better for it, and like I kind

of like, just I don't know. That's kind of my main point with all that is, like leaving at home, see where you can come up with on your own. You've got the skills to do it. Trust that it doesn't have to be like wait to see on the TV. Well, trust that you can use your woods from ship skills.

You know. In addition to us giving big Bucks too much credit, I think a lot of people don't give themselves enough credit, like especially you know, I was explaining to this to my little girls the other day, you know, because they had a bad turkey season. They both killed turkeys, but they missed more turkeys in two sits than I've ever seen in like twenty seven years of turkey. I mean, I was like, holy shit, guys, like we were we were out of bullet it was anyway, it was, it

was melted down. I was like, these are my kids. We don't need to do a paternity test because they freaking turkey fever to the nth degree. Anyway. So now they're thinking about deer season, and I'm like, last year, you guys shot at three deer and you killed them all and two really good shots, one bad shot that worked out really well for us. And I was like, you just you got to understand that this takes time to get comfortable and you'll get to a point eventually.

You know, their tents, so it'll be a while, but I'm lying to them, but I'm like, you'll get to a point where you like, you know, I put those cross hairs on behind the shoulder, or I put that beat on that turkey's neck, and you'll just know it's over, Like you'll know what you have to do. There won't

be this anxiety. But it takes a while to get there, and it's it takes a while for everybody to get to those those places and when you start getting to like some of that stuff happens, it's like it feels so good because you're like, man, I got the confidence to you know, like the first time you go and kill a big one in public land, it's like, holy shit, Like this is all of a sudden, it opens up a world to you where now instead of that thing

being like a negative or like something that you wouldn't really use in your arsenal, now you're like every chunk of public is potentially a hunting spot for me. Yeah, And that's an enormous advantage to believe that, to not look at it as a negative like it's over hunted or whatever, but to be like, if this place doesn't work for me, there's five other acres to figure this stuff out. Then you're then you're on a path to something that's like you're gonna get better because that's why

you're just got lit. Yeah. And I just think that, like one thing that I battle with all the time with creating hunting content is that at the end of the day, I guess the end of every piece of content, I just want to put disclaimer, like all this is based off of our experiences. You go get your own

like go get your own experience. That's that's what you just have to do to to And like I listen to tons of people talk about hunting too, So just like anybody else listening to this podcast or watching hunting video or whatever, I do the same thing. Don't get me wrong, Like I do the same thing. I'm watching other people. I'm listening to what Johnny Berhard has to say, I'm listening to Dan and Falder, Andy May or whatever I am. I'm trying to do exactly what those guys do,

making your own style and understanding your hunting areas. You know, maybe that's you know, just one county in one state. Maybe that's a couple of counties and one state. Maybe that's a couple of states, maybe it's a couple of species, whatever it is, just start chipping away and the only thing that's going to make you learn is just getting that experience. And like, you know, we sit here and we say you and I sit here and we say

that we give big bucks too much credit. But the only reason that we are able to say that is because we've put a lot of time into hunting them and we've got the experience to say, like, hey, you know, when you really break down those situations, we're probably giving

them a little bit too much credit. And I think that, you know, just try and different stuff, taken little snippets from um what other people are doing, and then not being afraid of failure is just so important, and like maybe what you feel like you're doing is something you've never seen before, And to be completely honest, that's probably true. Like when I set my bow behind me that spot, I've still do this net. They never seen anybody hunt with a bow in that type of a setup, but

it worked perfectly. The but literally was as close as you could get. You know, it's just like he was. He could almost reaped down and touch him. And that was the most oddball set up that you could ever draw up compared to what most people do in those situations. Not to say that they're wrong, but what works for me might not work for them, based off of style, based off of influence, based off of amow time to go hunting. I mean again back to that, everybody's got

a different situation. It's just find what works for you and have confidence in it, and then don't be afraid to fail, Like, go have fun failing well and you said something there that's a really really good point that we should talk about just a little bit here. Is you're right, like we're talking about people, you know, people giving big bucks too much credit because we've gone through the stages of like what that made me think of is when I started hunting, I gave all the deer

too much credit and I couldn't freaking kill one. And then when I finally started killing a few funds and does it was like if it had antlers, I gave it too much credit. Yeah, like if spikes on up, buddy, like one points on up. And I went through that, and like eventually you get to the point where you're like, okay, like I gotta kill some big ones because you know the one and I asked in the two year olds,

they're they're coming. I'm getting them now. And so you go through these stages where you're like, okay, now this is the like the insurmountable level, like the three and a half year old on up, and then you break through that you realize no, it's not. And like then you break through and go not only is it not on public land or private land, it's also not on

public So you go through stages. So a good thing to tell people is, you know, one of the most dangerous things you can do and this stuff is jump the line and become you know, like that trophy hunter before you've got enough of those other hunts in your

real view mirror to get there. Because that's probably one of the biggest reasons people give them too much credit is they're just not ready for them yet, Like you haven't, you haven't worked your way up the ladder, and that that might be the biggest problem with social media and the content we produce is we show cameras. Absolutely we show too much of the end product of you know, decades of of hunting hard and having a lot of

advantages that other people don't have. And it it gives a skewed view of this world, like are not seeing us when we were fourteen and we couldn't kill anything exactly like that, You're seeing more of a finished product now than you would for you know, the first twenty years,

and it that's a big deal. Yeah, And I just I just oftentimes think, because I know that I do it, I oftentimes think of like, you know, if I ever read the comment or question or something that says like, hey, you know, I'm seeing this amount of sign what should I do? Should I I've seen this year, this year and this year, what should I do? It's like I imagine that situation being very similar to all the times that I do the same thing right where it's like

what should I do right here? And it's like the only answer that is wrong is to do nothing, to like stall out and just not make a decision. And sometimes I do that too. And that's the thing where you talk about like you always see the good, but there's so many days, like a hell of a lot of days that we go hunting and things don't work

out the way that we want. And the worst two things you can do is stall out and not make a decision and to let your confidence get messed up because of a little bit of failure, I guess, or a little bit of like just unanswered questions. I guess.

That's the thing that happens all the time in bell hunting, especially in areas or or deer hunting in general, but like especially in areas with like low visibility or low deer densities, it's so easy to just be like, Okay, there's a scrape here, you know, I set up on it. He nothing came in for five hours, So what does that even mean? Like do I sit there tomorrow? He's like, I don't know. You know, it's like if that was your experience, I don't know what what do I do

in that situation? It's still I can't tell you because it's like I don't even know that I would have an answer for it if I was in that moment right off the gate. Either. It's like it's just about going and trying and just trying and trying, and so it's just seems so ridiculous to say it. But there's no there's no easy answer. I mean, there is an easier answer. There's you know, by your own place and and you know, control all the factors and buy a bunch of land that nobody else can go on, and

that's going to make things easier. But like that's probably not realistic to you. You know, yeah, that's not that's

not for everyone. I think one of the one of the main points there that's like so so worth acknowledging is just not riding a dead program, like understanding when you're in one and how to get out, and you know, like because a lot of people have a high tolerance for a dead program on on off chance they're coming, you know, I mean, And I was like I I used the rut as an example, right, Like if the rut was the answer to all your problems, we would

have a hundred percent success rate for hunters in Iowa with archery tags because you got the entire month of November, and if that was all it took, then you would see a hundred percent. And you don't. You don't even seem close to that. It's like want o every filling their tag? And I always look at that and I go, this happens to everyone everywhere, Like where you get into something and you're like I think this should be going

and it's not. And so instead of talking yourself into just stay in there because it's like it's easy because like they're gonna come, go find what they're doing. And it doesn't matter, you know, Like we try to justify why it's a dead program. Now it's like, well it must be too hot, or it must be too windy, it must be too cold, or must be the ruts not popping off or whatever. It's like it doesn't matter, Like it doesn't like, it doesn't matter why my wife's

mad at me. I'm gonna have a bad night, you know what I mean, Like, whatever I did, she's gonna

punish me for. Like it doesn't at that point, it's irrelevant, and I gotta deal with what I gotta deal with, you know, like if if the deer aren't there, even if the signs there, Like if you sit there and it's the conditions are right, and you feel like you didn't make a bunch of mistakes, and let's say you get a morning in an evening there and it does not happening, Like, man, I don't know, it's time to

acknowledge it and and move on. Yeah, I think it's easy to say that what if, and like it's easy to get stalled out. And I just think that that's such a it's such a like I feel so free because I haven't had it for so long. But I do know what it feels like. I do know what being stuck and stalled out and being like only confident in this one thing, it feels like I always think back the season. It was the last year that I hunted from tree stands. Mostly it was the last deer

I shot from a tree stand. No, that's not true. I guess in seventeen I did. But even that I shot that back out of a tree stand. But the hunt hunt was so it was so different. It was a bump and dump, like straight up did a deer drive to see what would come out, saw him, shot him, that's it. Saw him come out, shot him a couple of days later in that same betting area, so you know, don't get him too much credit. He came back. So

that was one of the examples of the bumps. With the last buck that I shot out of the tree stand.

Prior to that was rut hunting. Go find the spot that was going to be on some edge down wind of the bedding area and just sit there and like that was so it was so crazy because there's this part of you that's like, I gotta do something different, But then there's this other part of you that's like, well, this has always worked, and yeah, it always has worked, and at some point it probably will work if you got the days for it. But is that really what

you want? Is that what you want to just sit there and hope and wait, because like you might take a hunt that might have taken five or six days to get that opportunity. You might just shrink it down to like two or three maybe maybe not too But if it's already not working, or it's already not working at the you know paste that you wanted to, why not just get out and try something different? Like man, every single time, every single time that that happened, That's

what I mean. Really, these like most of these bucks in here are the ones that are the ones I've shot in the last five years or so, and it's just like every one of them was just something different. Was like not just the same old day not doing the same thing. It wasn't hardly ever, like doing the same thing for four days finally paid off. Never like never, It's always like, you know what, let's go try this totally be different piece of pub plan. Let's go try

to do a wind bump. Let's go try to you know, bump a buff or you know, let's go find a buff better with the dough or something. I mean, whatever it is, it's just like, let's just do something different.

Every time I've made those moves, it ends up being something that generally tips me off at the bare minimum, you know, But I think about the same thing, Like most of my public land kills have just been a what if situation or like or like I just get curious about an area, like what why are they here or there? Or like why don't I ever go to this spot? Or does anybody hunt here? Or why like why aren't they here? And then you just go like I gotta see something different, like I gotta I just

have to go look at something. And Elk is like a prime example of that. Like, man, if you hunt like the last week of the Colorado season and you're over the counter unit, you just have to be like like what if, Like what if those bulls just like hold up here below the trail in this black timber hell hole and you know they're not making a bunch

of noise, but they're concentrated there. Or you look at a map and you look at the you know, trailhead here, trailhead here, and this loops around here and there's this

one little basin, like what if they're there? And you know you walk into them sometimes, especially like you know, when you talk about the scouting, you're like that's my spot, that's my spot, and that's my spot, and you walk into two out of every three year, like it's not my spot, but one of them or when you're walking from one to the next one, you're like, holy sh it, this is my spot. Like I just just by asking

the question what if? And I think that's like I think there's like so much value there and I think people probably listen to this and they go, well, yeah, if you're on public land or you're on an elk hunt, And man, I started doing that on the private spots. I have to hunt everywhere, even little like thirty acre private land spots, like just like are they ever in that will thicket there? Like is there a way to

set up on the ground there? And then you go in there and you're like, there's more to your here than I think on the rest of the thirty acre you know, you know, like you have those moments and you go, okay, now I question everything. Yeah, well, I often get the question like when you're going into a spot, you know, what is it that you see that makes you feel confident or whatever? And I mean I asked myself that on time too, and like I don't really even know, and I wish I could. I wish I

had a better way of explaining this. I still haven't nailed it down, but it's like, just go at a speed at which you feel pretty confident that you're balancing, covering ground and looking for the year, looking for a sign, and just start going off the trail, just get away from where the people are and just start trying and

just start covering around. And like so many people just again have that locked into their head or there's just so many times where we all of us, myself included, get in our head like, oh, we don't want to bump a deer out of here. What if he is over there and we bumped it. You're not really gonna learn anything if you don't, especially if you set up on something that you don't feel totally confident, you don't

see him, and then you keep moving. It's like maybe he was just a little bit further, maybe that maybe what you needed to figure out was just a little bit further, and like it's just you break away, Like it's like just take whatever weights on your shoulders and just get rid of it and just go hunt like you don't have like you care none because you shouldn't. And I honestly think man of people, like just again, stop giving bucks how much credit and just start hunting

where the sign is. Just play it loose. We always have this joke like, hey, we'll play it loose. Keep it loose, man, because like as soon as you start overthinking of which is a terrible habit of mine. Like I'm saying this, like keep in mind the day is that you don't see on video. A lot of days with me just like thinking about it too much, and I sit there and I'm like stressing out and I'm worried about stuff, and it's like the days that it works out of the days that were like no, let's

just walk in here and see what happens. Or like I shot a buck in North Dakota a couple of years ago, and the progression of that was we found the spot with with some white tails. We saw a nice bucks, a handful of small bugs. The next morning,

went back, did not see the big buck. You know, It's like, you know, is this rarely really where we're going to get the opportunity that we want where you know, we can you know, hang with one until he beds down and stalk him, and it's like this just doesn't it like it could happen, But he's probably in a bed in timber where we can't see him, and that apparent apparently was what he had done that morning, because we didn't see him. So we just said, you know,

let's just walk the whatever. It was like two and a half miles back to this other spot, get to a high point where we can glass, and we started seeing some bucks. It's like, okay, so that's stage one of this story. Stage one is we see this little group of bucks eight points in there in velvet that I would have shot. Then there was another buck with like a funky antler and he was shedding his velvet and he was kind of bullying the other bucks around.

But the eight point in velvet was a buck. I'm like, I'm gonna go for him, and he actually made a move on him the first night, didn't end up getting him, didn't ever even see him once we got down in the zone that he was in. But the next morning it was like, we're going to stand in here if you come back, so again, we'll get back to that point where we're blast him. We see him and his buddies the next morning, sure enough, and they they go into a betting area thicket and kind of lose track

of them. No, they're like, no, they're in this tiny little area but don't know exactly where his body is on the ground. I get to thinking of myself, you know, what the hell with us? I'm bored, Like I'm so tired of sitting here, and I been doing it now for like what feels like two days. So it's been like an afternoon a couple of hours, and then a couple of hours in the morning. But for me to

sit in once by that long too long. So I just start walking down the ridge and I've got, i think, just my buy nose maybe out of spawning to go. But I'm just walking down the top and I'm like, obviously I'm like hiding behind the terrain, but I'm going and peeking over and I get all the way to the end of this ridge where it starts to play out into the river, and I'm like, like, this feels weird, Like I feel like I'm somewhere where I should, you know,

like big bucklets down here. And I just as soon as I started to get that feeling, I jumped some prong horn, which was abnormal, like they're tucked in this really weird spot where nobody had ever bumped him, and I was like that also tipped me off to like some something you eat here, because it's not like we've been seeing these things everywhere. And I went and peeked over the other side, and that's when I saw this big eight pointer and he's standing there feeding completely by himself.

Now I tell that story to just say like I couldn't even explain to you the carelessness that I have walking over there, And not to say that in the negative way, I mean that in a good wayne. Well, but what was gonna go wrong? Like those bucks that had betted and I couldn't see they weren't gonna spook. Maybe maybe I get a different angle on them, I get eyes on them, or I see this bigger buck and end up killing that one. And that's exactly what happened.

Is I moved down there. Had I not moved down there, I mean not seeing that deer for you know ever. And it's just it's so funny to like get so locked into the same old, same old, And I mean I do it all the time. On the flip side. I'll tell one quick story. Hold on, hold on one second. I'm pretty sure that's the buck that you could have waved at me across that river. By the way, when you when you killed him. We heard you guys celebrating. Really. Yeah.

When I went to get my buck that I shot, I could wave that one of your cameraman up on the hillside. Are you serious? I didn't know that. No, Joe, my buddy was actually uh piece and out of meal there across the river when you guys were cheering about your buck. Are you serious? Yeah? And I was like, hey, can you guys pan that camera down and not show these landmarks? Yeah? I tried. I tried on the on the video when I saw that, because I was like, no freaking way. I think you can see me glassing

at one of your videos. I remember seeing other hunters, so I probably saw you. Yeah. I definitely saw other hunters when I was up on that ridge. Yeah, it's hilarious. One of them was mere one of them, I think about it. I do remember Minnesota plate because you have Minnesota plates. Yeah, so that that was a while hunt because it was covered in people. It was an opener hunt. I went out. I think I killed on the second day of the season. I can't remember, because you killed

that was on the third day. Yeah, you killed the morning that I was tracking my buck. I think, Um, but I I shoulder shot a velvet buck out there and got like no penetration, and I was like, son of a bitch, like this is this is not going to work out well. But you know how it is out there. I went out the next morning and my

buddy killed up the river. My other buddy killed down the river, and I was glassen just to see before I went to spot and stock that dear because I or to blood trail, I'm sorry, And I saw a freaking coyote like six hundred yards away run over to something and drop his head down, and I'm like, no way. And I just watched the first kyote find my buck, and I walked out there and he was laying there dead, and you guys were up on the freaking hill. That's hilarious. Yeah,

that's so funny. I didn't even know that. I didn't never know that that was true. Yeah, that's so hilarious. Yeah, we got a little excited about that one. Yeah, you probably. Yeah, I can imagine the screams were heard from a while aways away. The quality out there, I mean, it's different now. You know when I when I first started hunting, that s about the first time I found it. That was there was there were like fifteen bucks that were visible there.

They were all shooters, like like unreal, and it's not the same that the secrets out. But even then, now now I've seen it switch where you know, they used to be so visible, now they're not, but they're there. So instead of just like glassing wide open stuff and what they you know, like they go walk along the river and they fight, Like Nope, now you see these little pockets of timber and you see them like working the edge and browsing and like you see this the

behavior is different, but they're still there. So it's like, you know, like the tactic that you had when it was easy not so much anymore, but they're still in play. You just gotta figure out like now now they're like there's too many freaking dudes on this river bottom. Yeah. When I when we were there, it was pretty overwhelming with the amount of people. And so that's an important part of that that whole experience for me too. It's like it was like everywhere we went, it was like

we're seeing these people. And then when we saw a big buck finally one of the nights, and then we decided to bail from that spot. That was a hard That was a hard decision to make because we had seen a nice funny they didn't end up being as big as the one I ended up getting lucky enough to get eyes on. But it was like to pull away from one that you knew was like a no brainer, like that's a that's a bucket I would commit some

days too. And that's another thing. I mean, I think that's one thing that I feel like as as I've got more experience, I've gotten more interested into a little bit. Is like if I do start to find that and it and it depends certain situations are different, but it's like if you start to see like a tendency where like, oh, I'm starting to see these bigger bucks, that's when I

will start holding out a little bit more. I wouldn't say that I and that can be that can be super like a very bad decision in some situations too, because it's easy to be like, you know, this is the standard that I'm going for him, and all of a sudden, you've spent way too much time trying to find that and that that that's hard too, But um, but I have had I've had had a lot of fun and had learned a lot of things. Actually this

is completely this is a mule deer hunting. But I hunted the same buck, which is the first time I've ever done that. I hunted the same buck for like seven days in New Mexico last year, and it was like one of the most fun most memorable experience, definitely one of the most memorable experiences that I've ever had

without shooting a deer. And that was like just because it was fun to watch how and now it's invisible because it's ration where you get a lot of visibility, but just watching how he was hiding from other hunters because he picked up on the patterns of what everybody else was doing, it was it really helped for white tail hunting too, because it's just like man like sometimes

it right under your nose. Like one of the times that we lost him for a couple of days, he was actually just tucked right up against the road in this little valley and it's just like had had we kept and that's there's another thing. It's like that's a situation where you keep doing the same thing. And we had lost him for like a day day and a half, maybe two, maybe almost two days, we decided to go in a different route, hit a different angle, and it's like there is land right up in a spot where

nobody could see him. And it's just like, had we never made that change, had we kept going to our same glassing spot, we would have never found him again. And it's just so funny how change makes such a

big difference. You know. It's amazing how often when you leave the road or the access from a way that people usually don't what you run into mild A prime example of that because is people want to glass them from their truck if they if they can, you know, and those deer figure that out so quickly, and so instead of being seven miles in a lot of times there's three yards in and just over the hill and not in the night. Yeah, not a nice basin that

you can glass. They do it all the time. I've never seen anything so consistent, like everywhere I go, this is something else that I try to do, and it kind of helps with that, like find the thick spot and go to it, and it's like what's everybody else doing? Like where are these parking areas? Where is the you know where? Where how are people accessing? And how are people mostly hunting and then how can I do something different? Well,

this situation was easy. We were hiking to the top of the mountain every morning and glass and from the top, and every single hunter that we saw was driving and glassing from the road. And it's like like you can easily take one look at the map and say, well, I can't see like at least fifty bare minimum of this whole range being at the bottom. And it's just so crazy, like how you can look at that tendency and use that to your advantage, and like that can

be done anywhere. And I said, I definitely notice it in elk hunting. Turkey hunting probably the most where you can easily find a trend, like are people calling a budge maybe with turkeys, maybe without the same thing? Am I hearing a bunch of bugles? Or am I hearing a bunch of guys pull up and you know, crack on a call, roll out a box caller, crystal call.

It's like that's the case. Maybe I tone it back a little bit, and I feel like just finding that tendency doing something different is is just something I always like to try to keep in the back of my mind too, because it's really helped especially in situations like that. I didn't kill the buff. I blew both stocks that I made that I got closed, but heart breaking. But that's that's what happens mostly when you spot in stock meal deer. Two quick questions before we wrapped us up.

The first one just what's what's the hardest state you've ever hunted? What's the one where you're like, man, the white tails in this state kick my ass. I mean, I hate to say that because then people get a chip on their shoulder. Um say it. Anyway. The one that the one that we struggled with the most was that Georgia plant that I was I don't remember says before. We've been talking along enough time that I can't remember

if that was on here or not. But I was with my friend Keith and we're hunting and Georgia and we just struggled and we eventually got on them, but it was just a struggle on. With that being said, I think that I've had a hard time in any East, Like you just run down the line of Appalachian mountains, any state that's touching those, I've had. I've had big timber Eastern big timber is with hills or mountains, whatever

you wanna call it. That is where I've I truly enjoy it though like I probably like it and I'm was drawn to it is anywhere just because I do know it's going to kick my ass and I I feel like physically I'm capable, but mentally I'm not there. And that's what I like. It's like I can go run around on the mountains and have a blast, get hell of a workout every time, but then also just like challenging myself and when I get done with those hunts that the mental part of it is like tough.

Your brain is like fried. So I'd say anywhere eastern in the Appalachian Mountains or anything that's foothill touching it. I mean, it's all that's all tough stuff, which I love it. What last question, what's the dumbest thing you've seen a big buck do that wasn't an Iowa buck? Which one where you just killed one and you're like, I cannot believe he just did that. Okay, there's there's definitely gonna be something good here. Um, shoot, what is the dumbest thing? I think? To look at your wall

of inspiration? Just different, just different, But one I mean, there's been there's been some. The bumping ones are always interesting to me, but I understand why they do it. Um the one Okay, here's one. And I don't not to like make this buck out to be a fool, because I don't think he was. But in in New York, this buck had a dope pinned to the road or I'm sorry, pinned to a fence line, and the road

was really close. We saw him from the road. He's with this dough, big punk too, like by far the biggest thing we had seen in the whole area, like for days, this base six. I think up to this point we had seen, you know, just a basket rack buck. So we see this thing with a dough and he's defending another buck and his position based off where he was in relation to that paved road. It's like it made sense, but only when they were betted, because as soon as he stand up, he was in the wide open.

So he made he made that decision, which wasn't really the end of the world, because, like I said, once they betted down, you couldn't see him. But we started I lost track of them because they betted down, climbed a tree, got eyes on him again when he stood up and actually bred the dough, and then I got down and started to make a stock on him, and when he when he okay, So this is this is where it gets kind of interesting and where he made some bad decisions and I made some good decision that

just worked out. I was watching Dylan who was filming, and he was up in that tree that I had spotted him from. So he's off to my left, the bucks kind of straight in front of me, and I'm going down the timber or it wasn't at timber edge. It was like a fence row edge. On the other side of it was the private The public land line

was this fence row. So I'm kind of walking right down, you know, my side of the fence on the public The wind is coming from that fence line to my left, and the sun is setting over that fence row as well, so shadows. And he stands up with that dough. I realized this my opportunity to start cutting distance fast because I can see his antlers, and as I make in my moods, he's all of a sudden, I didn't realize what it was at the time, but he starts running

towards me like just bounding like afraid, like something spook him. Well, a vehicle had driven past alerted him, and he takes off running towards me. Well, as he's doing that, I had enough time, and I had a spot picked out in the shadows that I just went right for that. Tucked down in there, got low crouch and covered my eyes and my face with my bow cam. And this is where he made a pretty where he let the

dog get the best of them. He started thinking he knew that there was something wrong there, but he didn't know what it was, and because he never saw me move, he just started to eventually let it go, and he

eventually started looking back at that dough. He started to circle down wind of either me or the dough, I'm not sure, because either way, he was putting the wind in his butt and he was starting to make a move out into that tall grass and he and he eventually just kept looking towards that dough, and I let him do it enough to where he started to really

trust me. And then I drew somewhere in between. And when he looked the last time, I literally stood up and I could have been standing in the you know, wide open on the fairway. It's like he could have saw me so easily, and I just stood up and shot him at twenty yards and he just looked was looking the other way, and like that. That was the

dumbest That was the dumbest thing. But like any time you get a big buck with the bed bedded with the dough, it doesn't matter if he's an io or if he's in the hardest you know, pressured area in the country. Like he's gonna get foolish, he's gonna let his guard down into me. It's not as much about the buck making that mistake, it's about you taking an advantage of his foolishness. And if you can do that,

that's that's when the best time of the year. I mean no, if you can bow hunt and you can get eyes on a buck with the dough, that's the best time to hunt in the world. I'd take that day any day of the week. Recognize when they they're just they're not on their a game, all right, Zach. I always love chatting with you, buddy. You know th HP fame. Everybody knows where to find you. Thank you so much for coming on, man, It's always a pleasure. Yeah,

I appreciate you having me on. I've had a blast talking. That's it for this week, folks, be sure to tune in next week for some more white tail goodness. This has been Wire to Hunt and I'm your guest host,

Tony Peterson. As I always, thank you so much for listening, and if you're looking for more white tail content, please check out the meteor dot com slash wired to see a pile of new articles each week from Mark myself and a whole slew of white tail addicts, or head on over to the wire to Hunt YouTube channel to view the weekly content we put up