Ep. 570: An Outfitter's Perspective On Creating Killable Bucks For His Clients with Mike Stroff

coming up on September through September. If you're listening now for a number of first Light items and a couple of cool things on the Mediator Store, including our Timber Ninja climbing sticks. He's the climbing sticks that I love, the number one stick that I use been using for the last two or three seasons. We've even got them

now in the Spector camel pattern. If you buy three sticks from the Mediator Store, you get the fourth one off, and that's a pretty good amount of money because He's honestly aren't cheap sticks, but they are top top not so if you want to check that out, if you want to check out the saddle I'm using, or any of my first Like gear picks for mid season I've got my whole kit listed out on my gear picks page. That is store dot the meat eater dot com slash mark.

So store dot the meat eater dot com slash mark. You're gonna see my gear recommendations for first light stuff in October. You're gonna see the timber Ninju sticks I'm mentioning, and a few other things too, So check all that out. That's update number one. Update number two, and thank you for bearing with me here. Update number two is that my brand new white tail show, Deer Country has launched. The first episode is live now on the meat Eater

YouTube channel. It's all about that urban deer hunt I went on in Washington, d C. And everything I learned about urban deer hunting from Taylor Chamberlain. Hopefully you heard that podcast episode back in I don't know November December last year discussing this. Now you can finally watch it, so please head on over to the meat Eater YouTube channel check out episode one. I'm proud of the story we told some of the tough lessons I learned along the way, and I hope you enjoy it as well.

So that is it for me. Enjoy this episode with Tony, I'm out. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the modern white tail hunter and now your host Mark Kenyon. Hey, everybody, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast. I'm your guest host Tony Peterson, and today I'm speaking to Mike Stroff, who owns Southern Outdoor Experience and is the host of Savage Outdoors TV. All right, folks, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, which has brought to

you by First Light. You have probably noticed that they is not the voice of Mark Kenyon. Mark and Spencer are off filming a project together which you probably think is about hunting, but you're wrong. According to Mark's text, it's a historical thriller that is part time travel sci fi and part Kung Fu movie. So I guess there's a lot of moving parts there, but I'm sure it'll be a riveting film when it's all said and done. Until then, I'll just keep this train moving down the

tracks and keep this rabbits with Antler's Month Alive and Well. Now, last week I kicked it off with Andy May, but this week I'm taking a sharp turn into new territory with Mike Stroff. Mike owns and operates several white tail hunting outfits where he and his guides have to put a wide variety of clients on deer in Texas and

Illinois and Iowa and South Dakota. He discusses the challenges of having new hunters in each week and now he has to try to preserve deer movement while dealing with clients of various physical abilities, you know, hunting patients, and just overall white tail hunting experience. Even if you never ever ever plan on going on an outfitted hunt, this episode has a lot to offer you because a few people have the kind of experience that Straf does with

white tailed deer in so many different places. I hope you enjoy it because I really had a lot of fun talking with him. Mike Straw, thanks for coming on the podcast, buddy, Hey, thanks for having me. You you look a little tired. Yeah. We're up here in Illinois, hanging tree stands, checking stands, replacing straps, treman mowing food

plots and trails, and gotta Yeah. This is our last trip up here to be able to get everything done before we start our fall craziness, because I just don't have any more time in the schedule to get up here. So we're kind of here util we're done. Just just for a frame of reference, how many tree stands are you guys setting up there on that farm. We've got about a hundred and sixty. I guess that we've got set um. You know, it's a big farm. It's the

largest privately owned continuous track in state Illinois. So it's it's big place, and you know it's it's small with lots, so you you hunt the pitch points and all these little travel corridors, so you gotta have multiple stands and a lot of them because of the way the wind, you know, so you can hunt all the winds. You know, if you've got a deer it's in a certain area, you gotta get in there with them. But you know, we may not have the luxury, especially guiding or having

guests or clients come where. You know, you can't wait till next week when the wind gets right. You gotta be able to get in there. So we we have there's a lot of duplication, I guess, but it's necessary, yeah, and that you know, that's something you know we used

to hear about a lot. Is you know, this is probably like in the nineties early two thousands where you'd hear about you know, if you have a really good spot set up, you know, three stands in there for different winds, so no matter what, you can hunt it. And that kind of went away with the mobile movement and you know, climbing stands and saddles and stuff. But you're in a unique position. And this is why I wanted to get you on. I've known you a long time.

I hunted with you down in Texas, I hunted your place out in South Dakota, and I was thinking, you know, like who better to kind of dumb down Big Bucks than somebody who has the kind of operations that you run.

You know, only are you a passionate deer hunter yourself, but you have a lot of clients on your your three different businesses, and who are coming in and they vary so wildly, and you have to just be like, okay, this week, my challenge is, you know, to twelve year olds with rifles and a six year old with a bow, and somebody who's killed a hundred deer and somebody who's killed two, and you've got to think through all this stuff. And so that farm you're talking about down in Illinois there.

You know, that's that is a kind of a unique situation you have. But you're saying that you're still putting up a hundred and sixty tree stands just on that place to make sure that you guys have options. Yeah, it's it's for different options and for different skill sets. Like you were talking about. You know, some some locations I wouldn't even entertain with a certain client. Not because they necessarily can't make the shot. That's not what I'm

talking about. It's more like physically they may not be able to get in that lock on, or hey, they can't cross that creek because they can't get up the steep bank, or or this guy's super fit, he can get in there. But you know, like you said, or I've got a kid, or whatever it may be. Because we get all kinds of different clients here in Illinois. Typically,

my hunters are pretty serious bow hunters. The guys that want to come to hunt this farm is pretty you know, it's a pretty prestigious place to hunt, and the guys that call about hunting here are typically pretty die hard bow hunters. So it's a little bit unique compared to what I'm doing in Texas or even what we might

be doing in Iowa or South Dakota at times. Um, this hunter is a little bit more hardcore, I guess on average, but we still get or but did you get that guy that may come with his three buddies that are super hardcore and he's not. And you've got that fourth guy that's got of the variable or the third guy in the group whatever, he's got the odd man out, and you still gotta be able to accommodate and try your best to get them in the best situation where they have a chance to kill a deer. Um.

You know. And then we're real picking out what we shoot here, So that takes a whole another element into it. You know, you've gotta be able to hunt these areas based on what's in there. And you we're running a a hundred cameras on the place. UM. I don't get a lot of sales service in the bottoms here, so I still have to use a lot of SD card cameras, um, you know, and so I've got to have a lot of cameras out and I don't like going in and let you know what I'm in there working or taking

somebody in and out hunting. You know, I've got a reason to be there. I'll check them, but you know, I'm not just rolling around beating the woods down checking cameras, you know, necessarily either. So, but we're getting all those out right now too. So my trucks full of cameras, pul saws, stretch strats, tree stands. We're kind of multi tasking right now. Yeah, and you're just looking at that, you know, and for reference, we're recording this in August,

even though this is gonna drop in September. But you're just like, we gotta get this done. We gotta get out of there and start collecting some of that data and just let everything kind of season and settle down a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I like to try to be done by the end of August. That's you know, by September one is kind of my goal on the place that we have here in Illinois and our place and Iowa is to be done and out of the woods and just let the deer do what they want

to do. You know, you start hunting first of all October if you if you want to, we don't bring clients in then. But you know, if you were to hunt earlier. You know, I like to just let the deer have forty five fifty days. Nobody really screwed with a mother and be checking a camera here and there. And I don't live here either, so I'm doing an absolutee. So just with my schedule with our TV shows, other

outfitting locations and everything, We've got to get ready. Um, this is kind of my last who are all up here, so I gotta get it done. Yeah, And when you give that example of you know, that Illinois situation is kind of cool because you have people who are you know, you're not going to have somebody who doesn't know what they're doing probably show up there or inquire about it, but you still might deal with that. How do you

assess that? Because I know I've been there, you know, down at your Texas place when like eight or ten people show up and you can see the guys kind of watching everybody shoot. You can kind of you can sort of see this feeling out process that they're really you know, they're they're tactful about, but you know they're looking at that going okay. You can kind of see them making up their mind about people at the onset

and then every you know, every morning. Every evening when you get picked up, there's like an assessment of like what did you see, what happened? Did you shoot? You know, and and it's it's like a kind of a moving target all the time, and it changes by the week. It's got to be a huge challenge. Oh yeah, for sure. Well,

one guy's getting into camp here. What we like to do is put everybody, not to put them on the spot, but I want to check bows and make sure everybody's good and also to see who could do what, uh, you know, to make sure everybody's gears set up right, because you know, like I say, you might have a group of three or four guys and one guy's just kind of tagging along because they want to think how buddies and the other guys are hardcore or somebody has

something wrong with their set up. Uh, you know, so we make everybody shoot. We all got to go down. We've got a little three D range in the backyard here. We uh we kind of walk through and watch everybody's slaying eight or ten arrows, you know, and make sure everything's dialed in. And also while you're doing that, we're talking and hey, we're you know, do you hunt a lot. Where do you hunt, where you from? You know, and

you just kind of feel the guys out. And I've also done that in our booking process, trying to screen guys a little bit, not to turn people away, but to understand their abilities and what they're looking to try to accomplish when they come to So I've done a lot of that on the front end. You know a lot of times I may be expecting someone because they've been real honest, Hey, I'm coming with my buddy. I'm not a big bow hunter, you know that kind of deal.

And you can also we've got tree stands set back here on the three D range where we'll make them get up in the standard shoot. So we've got lifelines and everything all set up just like it's the exact set up I'm gonna put them in. It's either my ladders or my lock ons, and they get up there.

And because the guy may come from South Carolina and the hunts and climbers all day long and in a pine tree and never been in a lock on with climbing sticks, you know, because they don't do that necessarily a lot, uh, and just to get them comfortable and also watch their comfort levels see what they can and can't do, and a guy may I've had guys climb up when they're practicing and go, I don't like that.

I'd prefer to be in a ladder or you know, and then and you're in the least I know now instead of putting in there at five o'clock in the morning in the dark, and you know, at daylight, you're like, I don't like this. I want to get out and ruin a good spot. Because I've had a lot of guys do that too. Uh. You know, so we try to rule all that out on the front end and then you know, get them set up and you know, make our plan for the week after that. Well, how

do you deal with that? Because that's one thing I've always thought is it is so hard about being an outfitter guy to running an operation like you do, where you know, you tell people like, listen, we'll drop you off. You're going in here, don't get out till we come back, and people always get out or people you know, like they shoot, they want to get down and look for their arrow or look for their deer, and you're just dealing with people who maybe aren't following the rules very well. Like,

what do you do about it? Well, what I try to do, and again there's always exceptions to every rule, but what I try to do on the front is we'll have a meeting or a brief on what our rules are, what our plans are, why we're gonna hunt, the way we're gonna hunt, get a feel, you know, if you know, most of the time, I try to bring all our guys in during the you know, the core time, you know, basically Halloween to Thanksgiving, and so it's like, hey, the more time you spend at the lodge,

less time you have a chance you have a killing a deer. A lot of these guys again in Illinois especially a really hard core about and that that I get them sit all day. So you know, it's like, if I drop you in, I don't need you downlogging around. I'm pretty you where I would hunt if it was me hunting. And most guys would get that. You you, some won't, but you try to sell that to them really and understand, I'm not wasting your time because it's

wasted my time. So I mean I'm putting you in the best location I think for if we're doing a morning sit or an evening sit or an all day sit to be successful. And so that's what they're asking me to do by booking a hunt with me. They gotta trust me, you know. And if they won't do that, I kind of get on them at the briefings like, if you can't do that, I don't want to take you into these core areas because you're gonna mess them up.

And we've spent all year dealing with this. I came in here in August and worked my tail off and got everything setting ready to go and left them alone for a month and a half so that no one's been in there. When I drop you in your you're literally the first person that's put their button at seat. There's not many places like that, you know, and it's like, please don't mess it up. Um, And most of the guys get it and um. You know. Again that's part of the rule out thing. You listen to guys talk

and you know what their experience levels are. And if you get that guy that once you pick up up once twice kind of know, well they might. You know, we have lots of good areas that are field edge or close to road type set ups where they're not going to walk through our best block of timber or

something like that. If somebody's getting we always just say if they got ants in their pants or happy feet radio because if they got happy feet, you know they need to be would need to be careful or we put them and you just gotta uh, you're still trying to get them in the best location. But based on the way they hunt, you know, we gotta assess that and do it. Do they you know, when people are coming in, you know, I mean, I mean you're paying you're paying good money for a hunt, and you know

they have certain expectations. Do people do you think like your clients generally understand that concept of like, listen, you're here this week. This is the first time anybody sat there and or anybody's been in here in sixty days other than maybe a camera check. Like we're trying to preserve these spots. Like do people generally get that or it probably varies, like crazy, it varies. I mean, it definitely varies. Um, these guys that are pretty serious bow hunters,

they get it, you know. But but but yeah, there's a there's a small percentage that really don't grasp what like how you know, how we're doing, you know. And I'm strict about how we go in and out, you know, so we're not blowing the woods all the triving and here we have such small timber blocks, so we're you know, if you blow them out, they may run across the field. It's a half mile three quarters of a mile to

the next timber. He ain't coming back tonight, and like it's it's done, you know, And so I try to really harp on that so they understand it. And there

is a method to my madness. Why do you make me walk across that wide open field for half a mile when you could have just drove me up, you know, on the back side of the timber, because that's where they've been and they're gonna know we're in there, and you know, there's always a reason for and I try to explain that on the front end, and when we're booking the Hunts, I explained to him this is just a unique scenario. This isn't an out there is running two hundred guys a year on a place that should

run fifty. This is a place you could run fifty guys, but I'm running twenty five. You know. It's just it's where our big thing is low pressure UM and it ups their odds for success, and if they can grasp that concept, they have a really good chance killing a good deer. The other thing I really harp on, though, and this is something that you and I've talked about this before, probably years ago, and you came down Texas.

Hunting has changed a lot, especially on the outfitting side, where guys are booking these trips and there you know they're expecting a miracle. Sometimes that's not realistic. UM hunts hunting, and it's still hard no matter where you do it.

It's just there's different places and different I always say it's a just different deer or it's a different world of deer hunting in certain spots, but you know, they gotta understand it's still Midwest bow running and at the end of the day, everybody is not going to kill a deer. And if you're the guy that has to kill a deer, Midwest bow hunt is probably not the thing for you, to be honest, because it's just the

odds of success are not super high. I mean, if you look at Illinois, o Iowa and look at outfit or average kill rates not super high, and that's not because anybody's necessarily do anything wrong. It's just bow hunting in the Midwest. Um. And then you factor on the pressure and all the other things that that affect that. But you know, it's really telling them we sell a great experience. And that's what I try to really get across the Texas here I or wherever we're doing it. Um,

we're selling the experience. We're not at Burger King. I'm order and tin pointer and I wanted to score one, you know, But but today's world has changed a lot, and there's a lot of guys, and I try to screen that all the best I can when we're booking and going through the process of talking to the guys, and I want to set realistic expectations. I mean, we shoot giant bucks on this farm every year, but everybody won't kill that top shelf deer. It's it's not realistic.

I mean, like, uh, you know, you're good friend Jason. When he came out here a couple of years ago, Jas killed a really respectable buck. It wasn't the biggest buck on the Griggsby. He was super fired up, but you know that's an average dear. And then you've got those top shelf deer, and that's why you come to a place like because you want to have a chance at him. But that's really what it is is a chance,

not a guarantee. Well that's you know. I haven't done a ton of outfitted hunts, but that has always sort of been the messages, like we're gonna give you an opportunity, or we're gonna work real hard to get you an opportunity at a good deer. Then it's up to you.

And that's you know. I can't remember which hunt it was that we did down in Texas with you, but it was it was the year that I hit that buck the first morning and then ended up shooting him two days later, and so, you know, and that stand that you guys had me in there was like it was awesome, Like I was covered and I was covered in really great deer for that area. I shot that buck, made a bad shot, and then got lucky on him

two days later. But I remember one of the other guys going in there after I had killed that buck and talking to him and I didn't know him really well, and I'm not gonna say his name, but he was like, you know, and you can't really kill a deer. You don't have that good of shooting lanes out of there, and you can't move on that stand very well. And I remember thinking, like, dude, I was, I was freaking covered in bucks, and that I didn't like. His complaints

didn't even register to me. And so in my head I was thinking, you know, this guy kind of sucks, but really what he just didn't have the experience, and he was one was those wide open, like crazy big shooting lanes where I basically cut the whole day tree down where you're looking at it like, man, I got great cover. I can draw my boat here, I can draw my boat here. These are my two spots. I'm gonna shoot him when they come by. You know, again,

it's experienced as all. You know, that stand You can sit there and do the two step up there and they wouldn't see you the way it was said. But if he if I gave him the pull saw and let him drive it out, you'd probably never see a deer there again. You know, it's just different, you know,

different world of white TiO. Yeah, And and that's why I wanted to have you on because a lot of this stuff, I mean, people are probably gonna be listening to this going well, I'm never going on a guided hunt or you know this, this isn't like that's not my interest, but it's the it's the damage we do to ourselves. So you your job is a weird one in the white tail world because you have to try to minimize the damage a bunch of people are gonna

do to your best spots. So you've got to think everything through the setups, the entrance, the exit, the pressure of the wind, who's going in, who's coming out, what kind of person is hunting there? And we don't think

about that a lot of times. You know, if you've got your your grandma's farm, you've always been hunting, you don't think about necessarily maybe the pressure you're putting on, or you know, the way you're walking in or the way you're thinking about stuff Like your example right there, you know you think about you've got you know, that's a Texas hunt. So you have a feeder there and you're in a live oak, and it's a very typical set up, but it was like set up in a

way where you weren't gonna get busted. I remember having bucks bed below me, and I remember having sixty degrees of deer, especially the first morning when I shot that buck. And to me, I'm like, this is perfect because I'm not going to get busted here. And so yeah, like when when I had to when I had that buck come in two days after I shot him and I knew it was him, and I was the first one dropped off so I could look at my binoculars in the moonlight. I'm like, there's that deer because he had

a hit a couple of broken ties. It took like two hours for it to get light and for that deer to get into it shooting lane and I'm watching him the whole freaking time, just waiting for that redemption shot. But like you said, if if that tree is just trimmed differently, that whole thing might not happen. Or you know, the six bucks you see the first morning, there might be two and they might skirt you. And I think, I think we don't think about that stuff quite as

much as we should. And you have to for your job. Oh yeah, And and and again like you that you brought up a good point. A lot of guys don't realize what they're doing that might damage a spot where educate deer in a spot, uh, you know, and so I kind of have to evaluate that with the hunter

and then how the setups are. And you know what we've done in the last few years, we've been converting some of our more go to food plot areas, you know, where we might have a really you know, nice clover turnip patch and a spot that we just know as it kills tree, you know, treat. I've been putting some tower blinds in there to eliminate the movement and the scent and that that that fidgety guy that I could put him in the tree and it just doesn't matter what.

He just can't sit still enough and doesn't even realize the dear no he's there. Uh you know, if I put him in that closed in box blind or tower blind set up, I can eliminate a lot of that. And so I've been doing some of that. And you know, every year I had three or four to the farm, you know, and I've been just accumulating something. So when I get that guy who's a you know, he might be the guy that's out here in the hundred yards just danging in the yard, and damn he can shoot,

but he can't sits still. You know, and you gotta get him in a situation, uh, you know where they can handle that. So I've even been doing some of that to eliminate some of those factors. Um. You know, it's there's people from all walks of life that come to it. So you know, you just gotta kind of

have a scenario for everybody, or attempt to anyway. So do you when you talk about that, you know, when you take a tower blind, you know, you throw up that redneck or whatever you're throwing up versus a hang on or a ladder stand. Do you see, uh, you know, just like a lessoned impact from people, because I've seen you know, I know people who have them and they still burn out their spots. It's probably because they only have like one food plot and that's where they hunt

every single time. But you you being able to control who's going in and when you see that, that's like there's a lessoned impact with those. Yeah, I I do, especially on the deer, especially the food plots where it

fills up with deer. So you know, it doesn't matter how good or how still or how perfect the wind is, you get fifty sixty deer come in a food plot and even and it's somebody's gonna get you at some point because they're gonna walk on the wrong side of the tree and smell you or see you or whatever. Or you're looking at the easy deer and one over here to the right and just happened to glance up when you turned your head and you got busted. It's

just hard. I have noticed that there's a lot less of that education going on hunting out of those and I try to put them where I can drive to them. So if I'm dropping a client literally, you know, because it's a farm, there's tractors and trucks all the time buzzing around here. So if I can drive right up play like you know, well, I just act like the farmer and get the heck out of there and literally drop them off at the ladder and they get in and by the time the truck leaves the door shut

and they're in, they're sealed up. It does. It has made a pretty big difference, and especially with certain hunters. Yeah, I could see that help. And how do you how do you manage? You know, so you mentioned just just on that property, which is enormous, You're gonna do like a hundred and sixties setups. You've got the Iowa stuff, you got your Texas stuff. Is it is it partially just a matter of having as much land as possible to make sure that you can just keep spreading people

out and preserving spots and resting spots. I'm big on trying to hunt this fresh. You know, if you if you come on the fourth or fifth hunt of the season, you don't want to hunt behind five guys, you know, or you know, unless the spots red hot, and you know, we want to be able to have fresh area to put them in. So you know, having more ground is good so that I can rotate in and out. But again, it's just we just gotta be smart about how we hunt.

When we hunt. If something just goes goes all to hell and then just get blown out bad, you know, we try to let it be in calmed down, don't just keep pounding on it. Um. And you know, because these places are big, we we do have the luxury of doing that. Um. You know, a lot of a lot of locations or places you may be hunting, you don't have that. I mean I have small places too, you know, they just you know, I have the luxury.

But here we do, and so we definitely, you know, and again the number of hunters we take is critical because if I take too many guys at some point, I gotta go everywhere, you know, and if I always can. You know, there's certain areas one week I made to say we're not even hunting that part of the farm for this week, and next week that'll be our starting

point for the next group. That way, I just know it's fresh, and you know, I'll that's where I'll be running cameras while these guys are hunting, because I've got the data from the week before where they're hunting, and just kind of stay ahead of it. Yeah, do you I know people are really sensitive to that when they know when they show up in camp they want to be someplace fresh, or you know, when it's day three, they don't want to get put somewhere where somebody else

has been. But there's so much that goes into those decisions. You know. I kind of look at it like, you know, I hunt a lot of public land, right and you know some states they have like fields on public land they lease out. It looks very much like private land, but it's open to public has everything there, but on those properties you know, if you have a field, a soybean field on public land somewhere, it's gonna get sad, like people are gonna be on there. And I always

think about that. It's like you walk in, you're gonna be able to point out, Okay, there's gonna be a stand in that corner, there's gonna be a stand on this little two track connecting them, like you can just call your shots. And if you think about it that way, you're kind of you probably are like the fifth person to sit there if you go sit there, and it's not that much different from an outfit a hunt where you're like, this probably isn't gonna work for me, especially

on a big buck. Yeah, oh I could. It could even be a little even a little tougher on the public in because you really don't know who's been in there, you know. Else here, it could be a weekend worried that you know, four or five of those guys only hunt one weekend a year and they went in there and plowed around and did their thing and left, you know, so uh, you know, it just depends on the type of guys, and you don't ever know who you're fallowing.

And that's so different with outfit and hunt, but in Illinois that my guys are typically a little more serious and and I really you know, it might even be annoying to some of the guides and the hunters. I micro manage the hell out of it, but you know, it's because I really want to have control of how that's all going down. And then I like to think it we're are a little formula works. You know. Well we we take twenty five, you know, last year we

took twenty seven guys and killed twenty one bucks. You know, it's pretty strong, you know, and especially when talking about Midwest bow hun Um. Yeah, that's that's about as good as it's gonna get. Anybody that tells you they're running addercent, they're lying to you, um, you know, or they took one guy, not unless they have a real big fence around in their property, right right right, and even silly, you probably can't pull that. Yeah, that's true when you

think about like your Texas operation. You know, people go to Texas and they're like, I'm gonna have an easy hunt. I'm gonna hunt a feeder, simple stuff. But even then you can see how people can just burn a spot and so even it might you know, it might be a feeder on a water tank, and so you have to like humongous straws there. Right, you got the corn morning evening and then you've got water, and you can still see people, just the wrong person burn out a

spot like that. And so when you talk about yeah, public land, like we always think like, yeah, that's that's harder than this, But in reality, accumulative pressure is just cumulative pressure. Like you know, we we look at the bucks like they're so tough to kill, and it's like, man, not until we make them that way. And that's how you do it. A white tailed deer. I hey, guys, come down Texas. Tell me, dear man, you're dear dumb. This is crazy, how dumb these deer are. It's the

same deer you hunt at home. He has no pressure, you know. Or it's been man. You know, even even in Illinois, I'll have guys go, man, this farm. He's dear hardly. I mean we're sitting in this standards. I didn't necessarily have great cover. Nothing looked up at me. They don't get arrows, don't get slung at him every five minutes. You know, it's just not that deer has not been over educated its entire life on how to

stay alive. It's a survival instinct. I mean, that's dear, just see that so much more often, and it's part of it's like my dear, my, the grigsby. Our biggest worry, that dear's that Buck's biggest worries probably Kyo grabbing him and you know, eating him, you know, especially from birth to you know, three or four years old. Well, you know,

it's no different on the public land. You know that their biggest fear is probably or issue as hunters, you know, and they're looking at you know, it's a different way of survival is old. They're not any smarter, they just got educated. Well that's that's a message we're trying to get across with this because we just do not look at ourselves like predators, Like we don't you know where I you know, I live in Minnesota, right we have we have the highest population of wolves in the lower

forty eight. Only Alaska has us beat. And when you listen to people who hunt, like the upper third of the state, it's just constant complaining about wolves. And I get it, like they when wolves swing through it sucks. But we look at them like they're or mountain lions to like they're just these voracious killers. They kill a deer a week and they're so good at it, and they hunt, you know, like you get them winnered up

there just toasts or whatever. But we never look at ourselves and go, you know, like for the average rifle hunter in Minnesota, it's like, okay, if a deer walks in some kind of opening within like two d and fifty yards of you, you can kill it. Like that's a huge advantage, right, Like you have binoculars, you have all kinds of stuff at your advantage, trail cameras out there scouting for you, and when you walk into the woods, they are terrified of you, like bar none, like, no

question about it. And we don't think about it that way. So we just go like, oh I walk in, I check my camera, No big deal, right Like I walk in and I sit this stand, No big deal. Like you don't. You don't think of yourselves the same way you would think of a couple of wolves roll them through there. But it's probably the same effect on those deer. Oh yeah for sure. Yeah. I mean again, you are the alpha predator and if you're in a place that I'm not in Minnesota. But if you're in a place

where those predators don't exist, you are the wolf. I mean sense, I mean, we're sure are chasing them, were bumping on the heck of a lot more than wolves or where coyotes would be sure. Yeah, And I think it just it's a really good thought exercise to just consider yourself that way and go, you know, like, I don't care what you think about yourself. The deer don't like you at all. They don't want you in there. They don't like you, they don't like smelling that you

were in there. They sure as hell don't like seeing you in a tree. They don't like it when you try to kill them, like you when you When you start thinking about it that way, it's sort of just kind of like centralizes this thought around, Like you know, outfitted hunts, d I Y, public land doesn't really matter. When you start factoring in x amount of people in a certain spot messing with the deer, then then you've got to think differently than other people. Well, absolutely, yeah,

and you've got to find those spots. It's like those off the wall places or those pinch points that no one's really going to because they always go straight to the water, straight to the food or the obvious place that deer should be. But like you said, gets burned up, and these deer, you know, you may have to get tight on them where they're bedding because that buck has just got so dang nocturtle weather and him getting up in stretching or bumping a dough into bed and thereas something.

You don't have a lot of chance at them, um, you know, and you gotta hunt different when the deer getting educated like that. But at the same time, you're also put applying that pressure we're talking about when you do hunt that way and get that aggressive. So you know, there's there's a lot that goes into it. And I'm probably the worst guy about it. When i'm I'll sit down in the kitchen when all our hunters go to bed, and I make the plan for the next day, and

I have a little notepad. I do it on it, and I'll have written out every stand for the wind that morning on the farm that works, you know, So I might have forty stands listed and I'll be putting guys in them, and then I go back and market out and I don't want to do that because that guy won't like that, or you know, I sit there and I changed my mind fifteen times, you know, and then when we kill them, like, oh I worked perfect as now I just got lucky because I's swap spots

eight times, you know. Uh. But but all the all the stands on the list or the right kind of setups, you know, and it's just, um you know, again, we're lucky because we have so many options. But um man, there's so much that goes into it, and there's so many different ways you can approach it and not none of them were wrong unless you're just you know, doing it all wrong, you know. But if I've got the right list that stands with right wins and approaches and all,

it's just a matter of it all coming together. And it doesn't work every day, you know. And that's the thing you guys got to realize. Well, and this this is something you know in your world, the properties you're dealing with, they're big, so it's a scale thing. So most people listening to this, they're dealing with smaller properties obviously and fewer setups, but fewer hunters too. And so when you when somebody's thinking about this, like I just

I just dropped a Foundation's episode on this. It's like giving yourself options is so important if you if you've got you know, I remember, you know, growing up hunting the same farm in southeastern Minnesota with my dad where we'd go out and hang five stands, six stands in the summer. That was your spots September, October, November, December, you know, rut, hot, lull, whatever, it didn't matter. It was like, Okay, we're gonna just pick from one of

these six spots. And it's like you can't get away with that, like you you just know like eventually every one of those places going to be burned, and then you start crossing your fingers for the rut to rescue your ass. And sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it doesn't. But when you're talking about that, like you know, you've got eight hunters in camp and you go, okay, tomorrows of northwest wind and we have forty spots. You can take that right down. Okay, you're one hunter and tomorrow you

have you know, that northwest wind. How many spots do you have to go to? Is it one or two? Or did you give yourself four or five six options, or do you have a saddle where you can go and pick out a specific tree, or do you have that climber or do you have something that can just expand those options, because even just like doubling your options creates such a better opportunity to preserve real, dear, dear

movement out there. Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean the the public land stuff that you're talking about, or guys that are hunting smaller farms, she knows, just smaller tracts to land. Um, you know, the other factors. Just don't know what the other guy's doing. You know, you don't know what your neighbor is doing or how your neighbor goes in and out, and you could be doing everything perfect. It's like, dang, it just doesn't never work. And I'm getting pictures of these deer another in here.

And it may not have a damn thing to do with what you're doing wrong. It's what the guys next to you are doing wrong. And so that that's the that's the factor that you just can't control. Yeah, And I mean you just look at that and go, Okay, I know probably where some people are going to access this property. I know where some people are probably gonna go sit. I'm just gonna do something different. It's the same kind of concept that you're doing. You're just controlling

mostly who's going in and who's going out. You know, when you don't have that control, it does that's a wild card. But you can make some educated guesses and go, I just don't want to be like other people. And that's that's one of the things I want to ask you about because I know you know, like my strategy for white to hunting is find a spot where do you like to walk and go there and shoot them. Not a big call or scent guy. I'm not a like.

I'll use a little bit of that stuff in the right situation, but mostly I like to just figure out where do you like to be. And I know you guys are looking at this going we gotta put people right where dear want to go. We don't. You're not like I'm gonna put the best rattler in this spot and he's gonna rattle one in, you know. I mean you might have something like that, but you probably look at that almost like it's a negative with everybody, and go,

don't draw attention to yourself. Just just let us put you there. Yeah, I'm putting you in the best place that I think you have a great opportunity to kill today based on the current scenario. And yeah, I'm big on the least amount of footprint you can leave and

and put out there while you're sitting, the better. You know, if you keep drawing attention to everything you do by overcalling or you know, addressing every deer with a call that shows up in the food plot, I mean that you can't do that because that will straight up burn up a spot really quick. So and if you're having smaller properties or public land, I would even be more straight about that, would be very careful because everybody else is doing that wrong, you know. And so you got

to remember that. And like you said, I agree with you. Get where deer want to walk, Get where deer want to feed, Get where deer gonna go, get between point and point B in the travel corridor, and put your hours in and it will happen. You know, you just

gotta do that. How do you guys address that? When you know, like if you think about some of your Texas stuff, super high deer density, and like that's kind of where people think, like, man, I'm gonna go put my back to a mosquite tree and I'm gonna rattle, and bucks are going to run in from everywhere. And you have pretty high visibility during certain times of the year down there, just because of the nature of the terrain.

How do you deal with that with people who show up and they're like, I'm gonna claim these antlers together every twenty minutes all day long, Well, I try to if. And the reason it works so good down there is because in a lot of cases, the buck to doo ratio is tight, and so they got to fight to breed.

So when they hear a fight, they'll come. And so that's different than what you're gonna experience in Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, you know, wherever you're hunting, where you got hired dough densities because you know, he doesn't have to get in the fight every five minutes to get a dough uh. Down there, they do and so it's a little bit different, but it's still a very small window of time that it will work. And so if they're hunting in those times that are not in that window, I'm like, please,

don't like. All you're doing is educating, All you're doing is screwing it up, and if they do come in, they're gonna be so dang cautious. They're gonna bust you before you ever have a chance at him anyway, So

it's not the right time. If you're in that ten twelve day window when it is working really well, you know, we will try to make sure we're one on one guy and those guys and kind of control the situation a little bit, especially if they don't have a lot of experience doing it, because a lot of times when we set up, guys will go I'll tell them, I want you facing down wind because that's our vulnerable side

and a big mature buck. A lot of bucks won't go down win, but the mature buck will because he wants to send check it before he sees it, and he wants to make sure everything's legit before he comes in. And that's where he's gonna get us. And so if he did show up there, I need you ready for that. If he shows up when he's up wind from us and we're good, we have time to turn and adjust and set up and probably kill him. So a lot of guys look at me, like, what do you want

to be facing down wind? They're not going to come from there. They're not gonna get a chance. Like now, it's probably where you're gonna shoot you, and you're gonna have three seconds because he's gonna get us when he gets down wind. So I want you ready for that, and we'll deal with this if it happens. But most of the time those big bucks and circle you end up. And again you've got to be in that window of time and it's not very big where it's gonna work.

And if it's outside that leave him alone. Ali, I mean, we always joke we'll reach over and grabbed the horns, are gonna leave us in the truck. You know, it's just because all you're doing is screwed it up. Yeah. Well, and at that point right there about the mature bucks circling down wind, that's something you know. When I first hunted your place down in Texas and I was covered in dear, I was, I was, I was that guy. I was like, these are the dumbst here. I can't

believe this. This is amazing, you know, like I could hit him with rocks. And then you spend a little more time and you're like, okay, now when you see the one step out that has like the deep chest and like you're like, that's that dear's different. That dear is older. And those are the ones that are swinging down when and they're and they're doing things just a little bit differently than a lot of the other deer.

And I think we look at that and we go, you know, when I sit this stand, deer come through here. And but big bucks never come through here. They're too smart or there too nocturnal or something. And it's like, man, they're probably just a little bit more cautious. And you probably never saw him, you know, circle seventy five yards down wind pick you up, or when you were doing that rattling session, you might have got him to come

in and check you out. It's to some level and he goes, ah, he hit your entrance throughout or something, and it's it's over. And then it might that spot might be over for him well. And and the one thing that guys don't realize when you're rattling or grunting or smart wease whatever whatever you're throwing at him, a white tail knows exactly where that comes from. Like they were key in and to the tree, to the spot, and so I always tell guys it's like calling ducks

or in your turkeys or anything else. When you got him coming, you better shut up because he will find you. I mean, remember, he's looking for a deer that's making this noise. And if he as he gets closer, he's going to get more and more cautious because he can't see what he hears. And he's like, now I'm close enough, I should be able to see it. Where where is it? And a lot of times that's when they leave, or

like you said, you just didn't pick him up. He's standing there in the open timber Europe, in the canopy, you know, and he's looking through there like I don't see what I hear and I ain't going over there, especially if they've been educated or there's pressure on them, and you know you've gotta if you if you see him in there coming, I mean, I'm big on shut up and let him, let him get curious, because the

curiosity will kill him. Not not if you just keep banging the horns together or continue to ground at them, and they're gonna key in on it. They know because when they come charging it in Texas, when they are running you over and you're in that little window of time when it works. They come to the bisquite bush I'm sitting at. I mean a lot of times they really do come within yards of us. Because he knows exactly where the sound is. He literally came to it. Well,

that shows you. I mean, if I was stopped, if I knew it was coming, all the times you can't see him coming to that brush. If I knew it was coming, I stopped, he may have approached me differently, and I might have had multiple opportunities to kill him because he got curious. And I'm sitting there and beating the wars together and just that, you know, and keep them coming. Um, you know, So just keep that in mind. You guys really need to think that through when they're calling.

You know, you don't overdo it because they will find you. Well. Yeah, and it's such a it's such a situation by situation thing right where. You know, I think that you could make a billion dollars if you made a grunt tube that wouldn't work if you were panicked, if it could somehow like test your like adrenaline level or something, and just be like, no, this, this dude's too jacked up. I'm not gonna do it because we hit that panic button a lot where that buck isn't going to come

in for some reason. And so before he turns because he heard the grunt, he starts company, just pins his ears back. He's coming like it worked. But you know, dude, stop. You know the first one was all you had to do. Well, yeah, and you see people you can The safest call probably in that situation is a grunt call because you can keep it pretty subtle and you can kind of direct it a little bit. But when you see somebody rattle that way, you're just like, this is it's just over.

And most of the time when you're grunning at him that way, it's over to or snort, wheezing or whatever. And you know, it's a matter of I remember I did an outfitted a hunt years ago in Illinois, and I remember talking to one of the guides there and he was just saying, like, I've got a deer that's so killable. He's a good buck in this spot. And I wasn't hunting it. I was hunting a different spot.

He was telling me about it, and he's like, if I can just get everybody to leave him alone and hunt this the way I want to, somebody's going to kill him. But he's like, if they go in and they make a lot of contact with this but because he was I don't remember exactly what he was doing, but he was using this wood lot heavy. But it wasn't like he was always walking right by the stand, but that was his area. And he's like, it's just

a matter of time. If we do our job right and don't let him know, then this deer is gonna die. Somebody's going to get a great shot at him. But if one of these guys goes in and shows him what we're up to, it's freaking over right. Yeah, that that is very, very true. And guys just gotta again that that is no different than the walking in and out wrong or the wind being wrong. Is that additional pressure we're applying, and you know, the deer just get

more and more cautious. So how I was thinking about something that you know, I know if you're if you're talking to Illinois, that that property there Iowa, you've got you know, bow season going on and then gun season comes in. But I know down in Texas there's there's concurrent season, So you could be bow hunting while there's guys rifle hunting out there, and you know, you could have people who are sitting in blinds and tree stands,

on water or feed or whatever. But you could have somebody else who's like, I'm gonna walk around with Uncle Randy and I'm gonna carry my rifle and we're gonna shoot stuff. How do you manage you know, like two vastly different styles of hunting to two totally different weapons

on the same ground. Well, there's certain areas that you're just gonna do a lot of damage walking or spot and stocking, and we won't even entertain doing that in those areas and that you know, or we've if we have a stand or feeder or a blind whatever that's really hot, or there's a shooter buck that's been sitting you know, set you frequenting a spot. We're we're not going to go in there and do crazy stuff. You know a lot of times if the guy wants to go do that, will go to the odd ball area.

You know, those properties have deer and all you know, they're they're all over those ranches. But well, we're gonna go somewhere. You know a lot of times, be honest, I mean a lot of times. That's when I'm scouting. I would go, let's go walk this northwest corner of the property, because you know, I've never walked through that block. And if you want to go spot and stocking, by god, let's go in there and see what's in there, you know.

And it's a good lesson for me to like, I'm always learning every time I'm in the field, and you know, if I've walked through the same block a hundred times, I don't necessarily want to go walk it again. You know. I like to learn and see new stuff too, so I'll take advantage of that and and and go after again. We're spoiled down there every a little bit because the

densities are so high. Um, but I'm definitely not going to go pound in the pavement, you know, in areas that I know if we just hunt that stand right will kill a deer. You know, we're just not going to do that. And I'll tell the guy, if you go sitting that stand, you can kill a deer. Or if you want to go spot and stot rouge over here, I'm not really sure what we might see, but you never know, let's go try it. If you want and some guys like, let's go, and other guys go, you

really think I should get in that stand? And I'm like, you know, that's what is there for. I haven't anybody in there, and here's the pictures, Like I can't do anymore other than tell you need to be sitting there, you know, and um, you know, guys, some listen something, just do well, Like maybe there's a bad question to ask, but what what percentage of the time when a client is talking to you do you just assume they're lying?

Because I know when you get when you get people in and they'll talk about the encounters they had or the misses they had or something, and it's never their fault. And I I don't want I don't want to say we have any I would hope nobody's just point blank lying.

But what they do is they it excited and they exaggerate the hell out of whatever they They might have saw six or seven does and it was twenty five deer and you know, or they saw a hundred thirty eight point and there's a one sixty running around in there, and you know, they're excited, or they may not have the experience or knowledge to really know what they were

looking at. And for you know, like I grew up in eastern North Carolina, if we saw a hundred thirty I didn't see very many hundred thirty inches deer there like when you did. If you really actually saw a hundred thirty black when I was a kid, you would have done everything in your power to kill that deer.

I mean, because it was the biggest damn thing in the county, um, you know, and you'd rode around with it in the back of your truck with the tailgate down for a month so everybody could see the adlers. I mean, it was just you know. And so a lot of that happens where guys come in and I'm like, hey, it's or you know, or you know, I mean, I I can't because of and you know, and I'm guilty because I'm in that business. But like a lot on TV or articles they might read, or you know, guys

on to whatever they're watching. You know, that two term gets slown around, or that one seventy term gets thown around, and a lot of guys have no idea how big a hundred seventy deer is. And I have a lot of guys come in and tell me. Especially in Illinois, Man, I saw two one seventies and there day I'm like, yeah, probably not, you know, like two together, like they're just hanging out together, you know, in the middle of the run, no doubt, you know, but not not that they can't happen.

But it's probably not gay, so they just got excited or they don't know what they're looking. When I first hunted with you down there in Texas, my exposure to Texas had always been you know, outdoor channel stuff, and you know, so those super wide, dark antler bucks down there, and then you know, I get down there and I see a lot of really nice dear, and I'm with a bunch of guys of varying levels of experience, and

people are talking about how big these deer are. And then you start killing them, and you're like, they're nice, dear, but they're not hundreds of you know, I mean, like like you said, where you were in the hill country, you know, you're really small bodies, like really small, so they ground shrink. And you know, you're used to looking at Minnesota deer and you see a deer out there a hundred yards walking by, Man, that's a really big buck.

But when you walk up and only ways a hundred and twenty pounds live weight, you know that's that's a different deer. I mean, there are subspecies of the deer that you're used to looking at, and so again, and you know, I have a lot of guys go, you know, come down and go, man, I just can't judge these texas here. You got to sit somebody with me, because I just can't. I can't tell how big they are, you know, and you know, you gotta put it all

in referre reference the size of things. So I always try to tell guys how long their ears are in the distance from the eye to the corner of their nose, and then you can kind of judge the rack a little bit because you can get a reference. Okay, that's six inches. You can kind of roll it up the

beam and look at the times, you know. But if you used to looking at Illinois or Scatchewan bucks or something, and you can sit there and go, gosh and reference to the head of that dear head, there's one seventy and it's like, hey, he's about because there's deer there. Well,

do do you think that? People? Though? I mean kind of where I'm going with this is like I always I kind of like have a firm belief like buck is a really good deer anywhere, Like when you see you know, I know that you you get into the heart Illinois where you're at, like that's that's not that's not the deer that a lot of people are looking for.

You draw that Iowa tag. And yet most people when they get into tree sand and a hundred thirty comes down the trail like they're they're scrambling for their release right like arrows are flying. Yeah, and we one of the things that and I bitched about this a lot, but it drives me, not says we talk about like I'll hear people say, oh, I had a little hundred twenty inure coming. I'm like, I've never seen a little

hundred venture Well. And then the other thing is, I mean look at the standard for you know, Pope and young buck. You know that's what it is. I mean, that's a heck up a nice deer, you know. And and a lot of times like our South Dakota hunts, we used to do a lot. I would tell guys, if you want an opportunity at a there there is a truckload of poping young deer there. You know that one one forty type deer and that's a heck of a deer anywhere. And there's just a super high quantity

of those deer there. It's a great place to go bow if you're looking for that, you know. And yeah, I mean guys will talk again, the numbers get thrown around, these stupid scores and they really just don't know what they're talking about, or or they're real lucky and get to hunt a place that does have deer like that. But you know, a hundred thirty inch bucks a nice buck. I've shot tons of them, and I'm gonna keep shooting.

I mean, that's just a nice deer. Or where you hunted in Texas, d buck in that hill country is a big buck. Man, that's a really big buck. Because you don't get you mass might get long times, but you walk up and you're like, man, I've never shot a buck with horns that spindley, you know, But you know, they just they won't score it. And really, at the end of the day, I've gotten where and I try to kind of school our clients on this. I don't really care what they score. You know, when I was younger.

I want to kill the biggest deer ever. But you know, really what I really want to beat that five and a half year old. If I beat that really mature buck, I I really can give two cares about what he scores. It's just, man, you see that tank. I mean I I just killed the biggest buck in that block, you know there. You know that I killed that eight year

old buck over there. That's super cool. You know, my son killed his first Illinois deer last year with me here, and it was an eight point you know it was it was a point awesome deer. He was about to lose his mind, but it was a six and a half year old, just monster deer, you know. And when he walked out, he just couldn't believe how big the deer was. And I was like, what do you beat the smartest deer in that block? I mean, that's that's the deer with all the education. That's the deer that's

seeing all the guys in the trees. That's the guy, the deer that we couldn't kill all season, and you got him, you know it's you. I like to win that battle. I don't really care what the score, you know,

I just like killing white tails. Do you see that changing because it I feel like that's changed a little bit where people it wasn't that long ago where there was like a real score obsession like I gotta I want to get my one fifty, I want to get my one sixty, whatever, And now I feel like it switched a little bit more to that emphasis on mature bucks or not. I think a lot of land managers have, you know, guys that are managing even small farms, big farms, whatever.

You know, landowners have switched gears a little bit. And so the hunter has switched based on the guy that decent from saying and this is what I want done, or or the buddy to let you come hunt, as far as like hey, we're not shooting him us to get a little older. Um, you know, but there's still

guys wanting to you know, they're still talking score. And again I'll blame a lot of that on TV because you know that's you know, we did that for years and I won't name like you wouldn't name anybody earlier, but I won't name shows. But that's all they talk about, Like why don't we just have a great white tail hunt? Man? I just had a blast sitting here with my like with my son. We just this buck came out committed suicide. It never happens like that. We've been trying all season

and it just all came together. Best time ever. I could give two ships with the big scores. I don't care because that was that Again, I felt the experience. That was the best experience you could have drawn. Like that day you do still get me better, And oh, you know, I would like to hope you're right that people are kind of coming back around to that, because that that's really that's hunting, That's what hunting is supposed

to be, um, you know. And so yeah, we all want to manage and grow big deer and shoot big deer.

But at the end of the day, I like eating backstraps and you know, talking about how that all came together, Well, that's that's got to be something that's challenging with being, you know, being an outfitter like that is you know, you look at this and people people so often either want to book an outfit a hunt because they haven't killed x buck or why buck, or you know, they want to draw that Kansas take because of the same reason.

And there's that that trophy focus, but really, like you know, I've had a lot of people ask me about Texas hunting because it's so so different than most of my hunting. You know, people are obsessed with the pigs and the opportunity and stuff too, But really I'm like, man, you know, it's a weird hunt for me. But it was so fun because of the dear behavior you'd see, and it wasn't like you were going to freaking blank like you know.

I mean, the first morning I ever hunted down there, when I shot that one buck that I ended up shooting later, I just remember thinking, I've seen more fights, I've heard more snort weezes. I've seen more just like mature buck activity and behavior in three hours than I could rack up in my style of hunting in ten seasons. I mean, it was like, you know, maybe that's maybe that's an exaggeration, maybe two seasons, but still it was like,

holy cow, this is a really fun hunt. Like it's an experience and it's not just a means to a dead you know whatever. Insure. Yeah, well, I always tell my buddies that I grew up with back in North Carolina,

it's a different world of white tail hunting. And when you come out and hunt that South Texas stuff, especially during the rut when it's you know, it's just on that, you'll probably see an experience more buck and rud activity than you will in three or four seasons, you know, and you'll see more bucks than you will in three or four seasons in a three or four day hunt against a different world of white tail hunt and it's

a different world of pressure. But if you really want to understand dear and understand their mannerisms and really what dear do, naturally you get to see all that is

cool to be experienced. And again, if a guy can come with an open mind on a hunt and understand that he's coming for that experience, that's the client I want to take versus the guy that's like, Nope, I came here to shoot a one fifty seven or bigger because my biggest one is one fifty seven and I have to do that, you know, and you're you're, you know, you've got the pressure of trying to you know, pull something at you know, out of your hat. You can't do it, or or they've set themselves up for a

failure before they came. And again that goes back to the screening part of what I like to do, you know, when we're talking a book in the hunts and try to you know, just be real frank with guys like that, or even in a way eliminate dealing with guys like that, just because I don't want to. I don't want let

anybody down. We always try and best well. And that's a good example there, because you know, people have lots of different reasons for doing this stuff, but when you you kind of narrow it down to that one thing, like okay is my biggest I want that one seven or or if it's not worth it, you start to just like change the whole reason to be out there.

And I, like I've been preaching this a long time, Like it's the same reason, you know, like I like to travel to New States and hunt public land, Like the experience teaches me something all the time, and I

just enjoy that part of it. Like it's not when you kind of when you get to a certain point in your career, a lot of times you're just kind of like you said, I don't really care about scool anymore, Like I don't I don't go into the season going it has to be this buck or nothing, And I find myself enjoying it a hell of a lot more

because I've done that in the past. And I'm always curious about that with like outfitted hunts, because people, you know, when you get that money involved, and then you get some ego being in camp and you know, one guy kills a great, big one on the first night, and then everybody else hasn't killed one yet, like that, dynamics get really weird. But the people who go into it and and they're like, I don't care, I just want to see some deer and have my chance, they tend to

do pretty well. Yeah, oh yeah yeah. And I mean, like, I get to hunt this property again. I'm really lucky to be to do that. I get to have this property. Ever year. I shoot two bucks here every year with one with the boat, one with a shotgun. And last year I shot two eight points I did. I shot they were both big, mature bucks, and again I they were perfect hunts, and I rattled the one in I killed with the boat. You know, it just was too perfect of the experience of what was happening. I got

caught up in the moment I shot him. He was dead. You know, and then my shotgun deer was a deer I've been seeing for three years, and he just it was a buck. We wanted to get out of there. And he walked out five minutes after daylight the first morning, and I shot him, you know, And again I goes back to you, I'd said it really I like the eat backstraps too, And you know, I was having a damn good time and I was tickled death, you know, and I can I've shot some really big bucks here

and could continue to do that. And you know, I took a guy the spot I killed my shotgun buck. I popped up a blind in the cornfield that had been cut and I've been watching deer across this pinch point in the field and I shot my buck that morning. I took a client there this that afternoon that is hunted with me for years. He shot a one eight seven. It so if I stayed there all day, that's what I killed, you know. But but but it was awesome,

and I sat there, I actually filmed him killing. It was it was I had no idea that year was going to show up there, So you really don't know what's going to happen. But I mean just an absolute stud. So I shoot, I shot at one thirty five, and you go seven and and but we were both just as happy with what happened. You know, it was just awesome experience. It's it's a good place to be in

when you don't really care about that stuff that much. Yeah. Yeah, and quite frankly, you can't bitch about going out and killing hundred thirty five venture That's right, you can't, and you should. But a lot of guys would, you know, And that's you know, like you said, hopefully that we got little evolution going back to let's just go out and have a good day hunt, you know, enjoy everybody in camp and have a good time. Okay, So you wouldn't throw your clients under the bus when I asked

you about them lying to you. But I got to ask you this. How do you feel when a client comes back and they say, you know, the big one came in and I shot. Everything felt really good, But I didn't see him go down. Then what happens in your head? We're gonna wait, give him some time, but but uh, it's frustrating. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, we've had me and Randy have had multiple conversations over the years, we come and go, Man, everything worked perfect,

and this guy just screwed it up, you know. And I mean it's not that we're like picking on him, it's just it's frustrating because it actually worked. All the stuff we had done came together, and it's like, damn it, man, and I've done it. I mean I've missed them, wounded one or screwed it up or you know, but it's still you're just like, oh, come on, dude. It's like, yeah, I mean we we've definitely never to a client, but we've definitely in bribe it or downstairs, you know what,

the guys are all gathering. ID was like, this guy's missed three times. Man. It's just just getting ridiculous. Everyone you know, and they know who they are if they're listening to this, because they were like, honey with him last year, missed times. Well then I was talking about you with Randy up sure. Well. I mean, it's just

it's it's one of those things. And and this happens with everybody does this, and it happens with your buddies where you know, you just have a unique perspective on seeing so many more people come back and say, I took this shot, Here's what I think happened, or or different, here's what I believe happened. Well, most of the time they don't know what happened. If they're super excited. More than fifty percent of the time, you could almost throw

out what they told you. Just throw it away because and what I mean by that is, okay, where exactly was he standing, especially a gun hunter if it was a hunter fit yards out there. Sometimes it takes me longer to find where the deer was because they really

don't know. They didn't reference anything. They got excited. They watched the deer run off, and they can barely tell you what direction it ran um, you know, or they shot it and they think they smoked it and it's shot in the hips, you know, or you know it's gut shot or or man, the angle was perfect, I hit him last rib, but really it was broadside and went straight through the middle, you know, you know, because I mean I've had to happen to me, you know.

But a lot of times we get, especially when they're excited, you get a story that's just not when you find it, it's not what you thought or you know, it's like and they go, I know, he didn't go that way. When you start looking for blood, it's like, well the blood,

you know, And that happens a lot. Yeah, well, And I mean that's what what comes from a lot of experience with this stuff is you learn to not trust yourself as much as you think you should in those moments because you start filling in the blanks and you you know, everybody gets real jacked up and everybody thinks things happened that didn't. And you know that colors your blood trailing. That color is your recovery time. It color colors everything. And when you you just get a unique

look at it. When you're in on an outfited hunter, you're running an outfit like you are, where you get you get just more exposure to that. And I remember we we hunted down there one time with you, and there was a guy there, another writer, who shot a buck and you know, he came back to camp. I hit it right behind the shoulder, but it ran off and it bedded down with its head up, and then it got up and then it moved a little bit

at bettered down again. And I remember talking to him and he was like, you know, I I know that shot was perfect, and I'm like, well, Nope, it wasn't. And he got really pissed at me, and I was like, well it clearly the angle was clearly off. If you hit him where you think you did, that's just not how it's going to shake out, you know, and too long thing, you know, with their head up, it just doesn't happen. No, And you know when they got that buck.

He came back to camp and the first thing he did, he walked up to me said, I hit that buck right behind the shoulder. So okay, where's the exit? And the exit was all the way through his ass because the deer was almost facing him, and so you know, in his head, I mean, there was some ego tied up in there whatever, but in his head, he's like,

I hit that buck right where I should. And I see a lot of new hunters kind of do that where it's like I just got to get it behind the shoulder, and they don't factor in you know what what we think about draw the line through and where's it coming out. You've got to draw that line of how it's going to happen. There a lot of guys

do that. I have a ton of guys hit him, where again everything looks perfect, the knocks in the right spot, and it's like, man, that deer was facing away from me, he is way too hard, or he was facing to you too much, or you know, there's a million and things happen. Or you're shooting a big expandable broadhead and it hit the ribs and kicked and the knock look good, but the hits really way up here, and you know, you just and again you're excited. So you see things

that you think are there and are not. You know, I mean we've all done yeah, well yeah, and you know in those in those situations, it's just like the more the more experience you have, the more you realize, like I might have gotten this wrong and I'm gonna

be careful and you and it does that. But it also does when you see people who are you know, who are giving big bucks a lot of credit, the one of the worst things that can happen to them is a botched encounter like that where they lose one, because then you start thinking these things are I'm never gonna get one, or I'm never gonna kill this caliber buck or whatever. So the next time one walks down the trail. You know, you think you lost your ship before and when you when you got shot, when you

didn't find it or whatever. Now when you get another chance, you're like, mentally you're gonna be that much worse off. And that's like a snowball effect and it's really rough to overcome that sometimes. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean a lot of bow hunt is right here. You just got to be able to you know, have the head game to keep it together and and you know, make execute the shot and not think about past or

you know, you know things that have happened. It's it's tough and and at a lot of that experience too. You have guys haven't been out there a lot and haven't slu a lot. I know, when I was a kid first started bow hunting, I saw a lot of arrows before deer died. It was doing bad, but it was my nerves. I couldn't control it, you know. When I only learned how to control it, and I got

when I was like I could do this. You know what I've just had as I've matured as a hunter, I've got where I can control that a lot better. I still get excited, but it's after more than it is before. I almost try to get mad at them, you know, like I'm you know, I get really zero in on it, or I'll lose my crap and screw it up, you know, punchra trated like anybody else would

well that. And that's one of the things. I mean, we we always you know, we do these podcasts, we write these articles whatever, and we always talk about these strategies and huntings styles and here here's how you do it. Or you know, you're like we were talking about earlier. You just preserve that movement, you know, really be a good ninja out there in the woods and don't let them know they're on you or you know you're on them, and then all of a sudden you'll get your shot.

But it's like you can't you can't learn that part through osmosis, Like I can't tell you how to be a killer when that dear's twenty yards away. Like you've gotta get through that bullshit you're talking about where you miss a bunch of them or you make bad shots. And almost everybody goes through that. And you might be talking five years, you might be talking ten seasons, if you know, depending on how much experience you get. It

might be like a sign significant portion exactly. You may be hunting public land or a small farm that you want to get one or two cracks a year, and if you're screwing up those, you might take you four or five seasons before you can put it together. Yep. And and and you go from you know, that place where you're like excited to see them come, but you're scared because you don't want to screw it up too. Now you're like, don't you better not walk through here

because you're gonna die. And when you kind of flip that switch, it's like a wonderful thing, and it still goes wrong. But when you start to believe like that down the trail, like now you're in trouble. Now not I'm in trouble because he's coming. That's like such a beautiful place to be, and it's like there's no way to get there other than just lots of encounters. That's it exactly. So I got a couple of questions left for you. Forere we wrap this up just just out

of like personal curiosity. So you brought up your son, and I know your son's a hunting fool, which doesn't surprise me at all, knowing you and your dad. But I always tell people who go to Texas because you know how it is like everybody's like, hey, I want a pig hunt. I want to I want to shoot

these mesquite dear whatever. But when you get to Texas, there's like raccoons and there's armadillos, and there's all kinds of stuff running around, and people kind of turn into like that eight year old boy with his first baby gun. It's like, I want to shoot shoot out of everything. How do you How do you deal with that? Because I know, I know in some ways you kind of

just gotta let people go a little bit. But in some ways you're like, I don't want you sitting on that feeder shooting raccoons when I know we definitely we definitely uh when a guy gets in that mode, we will uh. And you know, the predator control stuff is all good. I mean, you know those are all nest robbers, all the turkeys and stuff, you know, and and they cost us a lot of money on the feed and

everything else. So you know, killing those critters, you know, when their numbers are crazy, I don't have an issue with that, but we definitely kind of pick and choose his spots. We're not gonna take you where you're you know, you're hunting your buck or the buck I think you have a chance to kill, Like, you know, here's your arrow, don't take that quiver of twenty because I don't want

you shooting all and stuff. You know, So I get in our brief or whatever guides thinking about like, hey, get that guy under control, because you know, he doesn't need to shoot his two have liness and five hogs before the deer come out. That's a problem. Do you think that Jason is going to know we're talking about him here? Probably he's a trigger happy fella. Uh Ja's always because well I was testing this new broadhead or I was testing it like yeah, whatever, dude, Yeah bro,

we have the same job. I know what you're doing here. All right, Last last one, buddy, what what are the most common mistakes you see clients make? It just cost him dear impatient? Uh, you know, forcing something that shouldn't happen, so you know, not not waiting on the actual the shot that they should take. I see a lot of guys force it in the heat of the moment. I

gotta get him right now. Because there he is, and I gotta shoot, and damn it, if I had just let him clear that trio and it stuck that trio and hit that lamb or or finally just took a deep breath, he he would have dropped his head. He

was learned, and then he relaxed. See, you would have relaxed, you know, and you just you know, try to see it coming together and see how it's gonna happen, and just picking the place to make your shot and then sticking to that, uh, you know, and being patient to execute a good shot, and a lot of guys just rush it. Yeah, just just impatience in general. I mean, I know that you see that a lot down there, like you know, a water hole hunt or something. When

somebody's coming in through the brush. It's like, just let him get to the water man. It's like a bear going to a bear bait. Once he starts eating, he drops his guard and you probably got it, like you do whatever you want. As he approaches de bait, he's real cautious. He's looking around, he's checking everything. So they think coming to the water they're they're nervous, they're you know, they're almost stealing food. Or water from whoever owns that

feeder or whatever. You know, they're just checking everything else out and or they've had their butt kicked there by a bigger buck or an older buck got ahold of them, or you know, and it once they dropped. If you'll just be patient, they'll give you the shot that you're looking for. You know. That's the thing about like feeder hunt in Texas. You know, and there's corn spread all over the place. Shows it's not like they're standing there

eating in the clover patch. They're literally hunting, pecking and find all this fume. You're gonna get fifty different angles at that deer for the perfect shot if you'll just wait a second, you know, instead of shooting and facing your hard quarter, you know when you don't need to do that. You know he will, he will present the angle. Just to take a deep breath, look up in the sky for a second, do what you gotta do, and then you know, let him, let him do it. You

get in the right place and shoot. But it's hard for a lot of guys. And again that's just experience. Yeah, yeah, patients and just letting a moment breathe and waiting for your your the right time. Is hard to learn. Oh yeah, yeah it is. It's just hard to learn, Mike. This has been so much fun. Man. If somebody wants to book a hunt with you, where do they look? Then just go to our website so we hunts dot net.

Or they can go to the Savage Outdoors dot tv website eat one and they that's literally my cell phone on there because I do all the booking. I talked to every client, um, you know, and the email comes to me, so they're not talking to my office manager any that. It's me. So awesome. I appreciate it so much. Thanks man, Hey, thank you appreciate you having me. That's it for this week, folks, be sure to tune in

next week for more white tail goodness. This has been the Wired to Hunt podcast, and I'm your guest host, Tony Peterson. As I always, thank you so much for listening. And if you're looking for more white tail content, be sure to check out the meat eater dot com slash

wired again. That's the meat eater dot com slash wired to see a pile of new articles each week by Mark myself and a whole slew of white tail addicts, or head on over to the wire to hunt YouTube channel, to view our weekly content that we put up