Ep. 567: How a Public Land Master Consistently Outsmarts Mature Bucks with Andy May

a mistake last week. Last week on the podcast, I mentioned that we had this sweet new kind of promotion over on the Meat Eater store where with every sale of the Tethered Elite Phantoms adult, We're gonna give a hundred dollar first like discount or gift card. Sorry, it was a sweet deal. I was very excited about it, but we had a little issue on the back end and that sale is not ready to launch yet. Now I have it on good authority that we will be

able to offer that at some point soon ish. I don't want to make any promises, but here's the deal. I'm sorry I told you that was available. It is not available right now. Sorry for any of you guys that went there. Check it out as soon as I can confirm that this is a real thing. Again, I will let you know thank you for your understanding and for your patients, and now I will let you get

back to Tony's podcast. Thanks. All right, folks, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, which is brought to you by First Late you probably figured out this is not the voice of Mark Kenyon. Normally he's off doing something really odd, often with Spencer, who is not coincidentally really odd.

But let's be honest. This week, Marks on an other vacation, fly fishing some beautiful stream in Idaho or somewhere out west so that he can post I don't know, seventy seven more pictures of big trout on his Instagram and make us all kind of secretly hate him just a little bit more. Not today, since Mark's off having fun slinging flies around, I'm kicking off a Rabbits with Antler's month where we dumb down bucks and give you the confidence to kill mature deer no matter where you hunt.

And there's no one better to talk to about this than Michigander Andy May, who might just be the best damn white tail hunter in the country. Now. I've interviewed Andy quite a few times, but I think this was my favorite conversation with him, and he talks about several of the big bucks he's killed and what those deer taught him. But he also breaks down how little time he really has to hunt and what that means for his hunting strategies. You know, there's a lot of takeaways

from this episode. You know. One is that being a strategy generalist is often better than being a specialist is as long as you're someone who's always willing to learn, that's gonna take you so far. Uh. The other takeaway from this that's super important, whether you hunt public land or private land, great white Tail State, not so great white Tail State, whatever, is learning how to think differently about being a deer hunter, think differently than your competition

as opposed to just trying to outwork them. That's maybe the you know, kind of the undercurrent of this whole episode, and it's so good. I think you're really going to enjoy it. Andy May, Welcome back to the podcast. The people listening to this don't know, but we recorded a banger podcast yesterday and I screwed up the audio and so we're redoing it today and I'm I'm gonna blame Clay Newcome, but for that mistake because he made me do the Burgaries podcast and I switched my settings and

I never do it. And so anyway, I thank you for coming back for round two today. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Yeah, no problem, man, Hey, stuff happens. Yeah. Well, and I'm an idiot, so that yesterday, before we get into the dear thing, I want to explain my my day yesterday just quickly. So we did this podcast and as soon as as soon as we wrapped up, I went to upload the files for our for a editor and I saw that I had screwed that up and hadn't switched that one setting, and I

hate that. I hate wasted your time. I just I felt so dumb and like, whatever, what are you gonna do? At least it at least it was a buddy, you know. It wasn't like somebody that I didn't really know. And I left after that. After figuring that out, I took my dogs out to the park to train them. And at the end of the training session, I always throw this frisbee just to wear them out. And I threw the frisbee and my little pup, she's a fifty pounder

and She's a burner. I mean, she's so fast. And I did one of those throws on a soccer field and it's that frisbee is going, going, going, and I'm watching her and it was like watching a receiver, you know, looking at the ball, not paying attention to the corner coming in hot and she ran right into this post, like this corner post of a soccer goal, just you know, smoked it. I was like, holy sh it, now I'm going to the emergency vet. She got up, Randon got

the frisbee, came back, didn't show. I mean, I was like, when I saw it happen, I was like, oh God. So I'm like, okay, well there's two. And then I picked up my little girls, came home and I had a I had a time reserve for them to swim at the y. So I was gonna go lift and they were gonna swim. And we're going to the y. And this is like a five minute drive, right. We get to this the one stoplight we have to stop at, and I see our old neighbor poll in front of us.

I said, oh, you guys, there's Teagan's dad. And so like we're all looking straight ahead and as we watch him like drive the road ahead of us. This cop turns on his cherries and whips a UI and I was like, yes, I wonder if they're pulling him over. And so we go up there and there's a doll in the ditch of this guy's yard, back broken, scrambling,

just got it hit. And so like we're going by slow because everybody's slowing down, and that cop walks up there and pulls out his serve pistol like twenty feet from my truck and shoots that dough. Both girls are just bawling. Oh my gosh. It was just I was like, I don't I didn't feel like I belonged on earth yesterday, So I think today is gonna be better. Uh, you're you're the first guest on this rabbits with Antler's Month where we're just like, you know, we did we did

a science month a couple of months ago. And I just want to talk to you and some other just white tail killers and kinda again try to demystify white tails. I want to talk about, you know, how we kind of give them too much credit, and how you think about them and how you're thinking about them has evolved over. You know, you're hunting career and you know, public land,

private land, all that stuff. But first, before we get into that, can you just tell the audience what it's like to be sort of a famous hunter who only hunts all the time. It doesn't have a real job. Oh yeah, I mean I wouldn't know what that's like. UM. I'm a you know, I think okay, I think I can relate well to um, the average hunter out there in regards to you know, I don't get paid for this.

This isn't my living. UM, I just hunt. I just love to hunt, and that's all it is for me, and frankly kind of all I really care for it to be. UM, you know, limited time family man. UM. I work. I work a career in a school district, working with special education. I'm an occupational therapist. So that's my full time job. Um. You know, so I'm on

a school schedule. And then I have a second job that I work kind of to make ends meet, and I do the same type of work, but I do it with UM adults with disabilities, So I kind of do that on the side, and that one is a little more flexible with my time. There's a certain caseload that I have to manage and I can kind of do it, you know, kind of piece it in, you know,

when it fits with my schedule. So aside from that, um, you know, I have a daughter that is you know, very much involved with with sports and stuff, and most of the listeners have have heard this about me, but uh, you know, I that is like just my number one priority. I spend a lot of time getting her places. She's in a lot of travel sports, school sports. So my fall is really booked up with a lot of that.

But in between, you know, obviously, uh you know, we're we're hunters, and um we need to we need to also you know, fuel ourselves and and kind of go after that passion a little bit. So it's it's a balance. But UM, I think I I'm a good guy to relate to most probably most of our listeners out there that are working hard at their job, um, trying to be good husbands, trying to be good fathers, and still trying to find time to get their hunting in and

be effective. Um, you know, you don't necessarily have to be uh you know, for National Hunter or do this full time to to have some levels of success. So

That's that's pretty much the run down there. I think I think it's an important lesson there because I think it's very easy to see somebody like you and you know, like like if the listeners follow you on social media, they'll see your fall distilled down to you know, five kill photos of giant critters and you know, some time out in the field and just assume that's just what

you're doing the whole time. But I know, you know, you and I talked quite a bit, and I know your time in the fall is super limited, and that's that's one of the things. You know, a lot of times when we talk, you're like, oh, I just I just did a quick scouting session here, or I'm running into here doing something. And I think the lesson is it's so valuable because you're you figured out, especially with your daughter's schedule, and you know, I'm going through that

with my twin ten year olds. You know, it's freaking every activity gymnastics and basketball and softball and whatever, and you you realize, like, okay, that's priority number one. I don't care how much you love dear their priority number two or three or whatever. They're down the list, But you still make time to do those things, but you piece it out and you're like very targeted. And I know that that's part of what I want to talk to you today. I know you've talked to that, talked

about that a whole bunch. But you are really efficient, Like you you might be the most efficient hunter out there. And it's because you're just managing a full life but still have that desire to get in some extra states and and get as much done you know, on on standard and your satellite whatever as you can. But it's like, you know, you're talking just ballparking for me. On average, Like how many days a year you actually hunting? Now? Yeah,

it varies. Um this this past year I white tail hunted, um like actual like in a tree or are actively hunting? Eleven days? Um? You know I spent a few days out west. Um, I went out there, Um you know, dear hunting. I had four days and then I went on a really uh disaster of an elk hunt. Um. I was there five days and only got one day of hunting because our vehicle broke down and I spent four days trying to trying to get trying to get

that fixed up so I could get back to the airport. So, um, you know, I had a few more days there, but but eleven is is very low for me. UM. I would say, you know, during that COVID year was probably the most I've hunted since before children, and I was I was probably around you know. So I say, I kind of fluctuate somewhere in that um to thirty day range of actual hunting. But UM, you know, some of that is my choice to UM, you know, I could hunt a little more than that. I couldn't hunt much

more than that, but I could hunt more. But what I've kind of chosen to do are kind of evolved into doing is just spending way more time scouting than I do actually hunting, and um it has translated into

more success with less time in the field of actually hunting. UM. So I guess like it has evolved more into, like, UM, a series or a schedule of information gathering and trying to look for specific things and then moving in when the time is right, when the situation was right, when the deer you know, is located in the conditions and everything line up. UM. So, my my hunts are much more targeted. So I scout year round. UM, I spend a big portion of it scouting, um, just when the

season ends. Kinda I do a little bit when they're still snow, and then I kind of back off. I let that melt, and then I do quite a bit of postseason scouting, um, and then that kind of slows down for a while, and then I pick it up again right around now, kind of that mid to late summertime leading right up into the season. I kind of ramp it up right before the opener, and then once the season starts. To me, I don't really switch gears. I still am scouting. I'm constantly searching for a buck

to chase. I'm constantly trying to get on hot sign um fine new areas, find new books to go after, and UM. I do more of that in season scouting during the season than actual hunting. But what that's done, it's made my actual hunts uh much like you said, much more targeted, much more um high percentage. And I've just I've just gotten better at managing that type of schedule of scratching and clawing for time to scout and get out there. Um. Often I'm going before work blasting, UM.

I'm a lunch hour going and and make it a loop and looking for some you know, fresh sign in an area on a swamp edge, or I'm checking trail cameras, I'm rocking a food source edge and looking for big tracks, just anything to get me started down a path of another mature deer, because that's been the biggest challenge around home here where I hunt in kind of southern Michigan and northern Ohio is just finding a deer to target, one that one that I want to spend time doing.

And then when I do find that information, then it's go time. Then it's time to put time in the tree or make that calculated move. But I don't really go and just hunt anymore. I spend time gathering information and then hunt at very specific times when I feel like I got the information I need. Yeah, Well, and your point there about you know, slipping out during lunch hour or you know, before work, after work whatever that's you know, and I know you work out a lot.

We talked about this the last time, so we don't need to get into it. But I always feel, you know, people, it would be easy for a lot of people to say I don't have the time, Andy May has to do this. And when you look at that and go, well, do you have a half hour tomorrow or an hour tomorrow or do you have look at your week, do you have two or three hours this week? And it's the same thing with working out. You know, people be like, oh,

I don't I don't have time to run. It's like, I don't know, Like you can get a pretty good run in and in the time it takes to watch the Simpsons rerun, right like, you know, I mean, it really isn't if you're piecing things out that way. It's really not like you need tons and tons of time at any given day or any given week. Now it's different when the season opens and you might take your

vacation during the rut or whatever. But all this setup stuff you're talking about, it's a cumulative thing and it's not just you know, I think a lot of people would listen this and think it's a you know, that's a public land only strategy, and it's not. It's a it's wherever you hunt, you know. I mean, if you had like a bang in place where you're releasing and nobody was going in there, like, you could probably play the scouting game a little different and be a little

less impact. But for most people listening to this and for you and I like, I know, you can't really get away with that, like you got to figure out what's going on, and it is a year round thing. But it's not just a lump sum commitment. It's just

over time. Yeah. Um, you know, we we've talked about a little bit in the past about um, you know some people that that maybe do have a little more time or maybe they devote all of their time like during the season, um, and they do they have more of like a volume hunting approach where um, you know, they're going out and they're hunting pretty much every day that they have available, um, and sitting in a tree and hunting that way hoping um, you know, hoping the

buck they're after or or a good deer will make a mistake and walk by them. And I'm sure, like you know, some of those guys, I don't want to you know, play them in one category. But some of those guys are really good at scouting and figuring things out too, but they adopt that more time in the stand approach will equal my one or two chances at a good deer throughout the season. And that's a way to do it. And that's the way I used to do it. Um before my daughter, That's absolutely the way

I used to do it. Especially early on. Um, I would average you know sixty you know, sixty plus days you know, hunting out of a tree or on the ground, and um, you know I would manage you know, one, two, three, three nice books a year. Um. But it was mostly due to just pure stubbornness, persistence, and making a lot of mistakes and then just having that one thing go

right at one time. And UM, I think once I had my my child, Um, you know, it really switched priorities for me as far as like where I wanted to devote the bulk of my time and where I wanted to be present. Um. But what I would it ended up doing. It just started dispersing my hunting time throughout the entire year. And what I kind of just evolved into like, Okay, you know, I'm not gonna be able to hunt sixty days a year and do this. So when I do hunt, I gotta make it count.

I gotta be in the game more often instead of just going out there and hunting and observing and you know, and oh, you know, maybe observe something one out of fifteen days and then I move in and then I'm in the game. No, I got to gather information constantly, every little spare minute minute. I have to keep myself in the game to get on, you know, a good

deer in my home ground. And UM, that's just kind of what it's evolved into and and kind of unintentionally, all right, it was intentional, but unintentionally it made me, like you said, much more efficient with my time. And I've I've enjoyed it more. You know. I'm my hunts that I do go on. When I decided to go in after a deer or into a location that I've been staying out of that I know is heating up. My optimism is high, my confidence is high. I'm much

more attentive. I feel more stealthy, um, as opposed to like hunting sixty days or I might get a little sloppy, a little burnout. I don't have confidence of feeling guilty about being out there because I've been out there for weeks and weeks and weeks. You know, I don't have that as much because I'm really picking and choosing. Um when I go so like last year, UM, I'll give you a kind of a quick overview of the last two years. Last year, I felt incredibly dialed in and um,

you know, I was my scouting. I was turning up things you know that were that were valuable, and my sits were very effective. Um. When I went in after a deer, you know it was it was, you know, a couple of sis, and I would you know, I would get him killed. Um. My out of states hunt went. Um, they went very smooth, and I was able to locate good deer quickly and get them killed. Um. I just felt like I was firing on all cylinders. I was feeling good and confident. Well, I don't always feel that way,

you know. The year prior to that, I was having trouble, trouble turning up even a three year old buck here in Michigan. And I had the most cameras I've ever had out and I had a dozen or more cameras. I was covering four different counties. I was glass and using cameras, scouting on foot looking for sign I could

not find a buck over a hunter fifteen inches. And my, you know, I was hunting more because I had the COVID time off, and I found myself just like starting to fall into that trap of like kind of relying on cameras more. I felt like I needed to cast my net wider. But I was really trying to do a combination of like you know, of of of scouting and finding that sign, glassing and the trail cameras, and

you know, I just couldn't get anything going. But you know, it was just those It was just those few times throughout the season where boom, you know, something came together and I got it done. And those two those two seasons were vastly different. Um, but I killed the same amount of bucks. I killed four that year. I killed four last year. So I mean it was the same

type of scenario. But UM, you know, it doesn't always, even for someone like me that's been at this a long time and it's been using this kind of style of you know scouting, you know, four or five times more than I actually on, UM, it still isn't always. It appears maybe some people think it appears like it's

automatic and it's easy. It's not. It's not for me. UM, And I have years where I struggle, And UM, I mean that year, there was a couple of times throughout the year I was like thinking to myself like, how have I ever even killed a deer? Like? How have I even put an arrow in one of these animals ever? Because I feel like so dumb, like nothing is working. All my instincts aren't aren't paying off. Um, nothing that I think that I'm anticipating is happening. I can't find

a good deer, Like what the hell? And then it just happens, you know, Boom, you find that info, Boom, it's hot sign. You get in there and you get it done. So you know, it varies year to year. It's certainly it's certainly not so smooth every year. But that's my strategy and that's my tactic, and that's kind of what it's evolved to over the years because I do prioritize family, um, and I will always I will always do that, but I make sure to get my

little adventures in out of state. Those are important to me. I just make them quick and make them short. And you know, by doing that, that kind of changes my mentality on those out of state trips a little bit. And I'm I'm sure we'll get into that later. But that's about it. Man. That's kind of how I how

I think about things. You know that's it's interesting that when you when you kind of highlight the way that you felt in the last two seasons, because that's something we don't really talk about very much, and I don't think you see it portrayed that often, like in the

in outdoor media. But I had kind of you know, in the last couple of years I've had I've had years where like, man, it was like day one or two and I'm done, good dear big deer, and you know, you string together like four or five of them, and you're like, I just everywhere I go, it's like they're just they're coming down the trail. And then you like, I had a year last year. And this is probably because I was I spent most of my time taking the girls out and I had to save a couple

of tags for filming for one week in November. So I was like it was an odd year for me anyway. But I just felt like that like you're talking about where I'm like, I don't feel like I'm in the rhythm, you know, like I killed some deer and I killed some big ones, and you know, like it ended up looking like a good season, it didn't feel like a good season. It felt like I was just off, and I think it was because you know, having to save

my Minnesota, my Wisconsin tags. I wasn't in the woods just doing what you're talking about, like just kind of staying in the rhythm and seeing what's what's going on this week and next week and not you know, you know, kind of being like outside of it and then just dipping in for a big hunt. Was it didn't feel as good to me. I felt like I was just not in the freaking groove the way you need to be.

And I think I think that happens to a lot of people, and you know, and I get it right, Like if you're if if you're a weekend warrior because of your job and your family and stuff, that five days in between when you're not hunting, that's tough because there's a lot going on, Like there's a lot changing in the woods and hard mass, soft mass, all that stuff,

you know, like cold fronts, hot weather. All this stuff is is affecting the deer and you're like outside of it, and you can you can kind of speculate and go, maybe they're doing this or maybe they're doing that, But til you get in there and look around you just don't really know, and so you're always coming back like that.

Was one of the things that really surprised me when I when we had kids is I went from hunting anytime I want, I mean thirty days in a row sometimes, like you know, no reason not to too, man, I've got these little girls five days a week and I'm

I went from life luxury to weekend warrior. And it was like a culture shock to me because I was missing stuff all the time, and it took like a recalibration, like you're talking about where you're like, I just gotta I gotta be there as much as possible to mitigate this feeling because it's not good for you. Yeah yeah, and that and that you said it, you nailed it right there, is that you get out of the rhythm. And you know the same thing with me, Like you

pull me out of that rhythm. You you pull me out of the woods where I'm you know, dipping in two different areas checking cameras, glass and getting in looking for sign reading the sign monitoring. You know how the deer are changing to different you know, food sources and whatnot. You take me out of that. You don't give me that then I'm not efficient. You know, Then then you're just guessing. But if you give me little windows of that where I can dip in, and that's what I've

That's what I've done for myself. I I make sure I get those little windows in before work, you know, during work, on on a on a drive, you know, I at my lunch hour, right after work, um, or you know, on a on an actual hunt where I'm just like, Okay, you know, I gotta get something going. I need to make a loop through here and really figure out. I need to get things stirred up in here, get some information so I know what's going on. You get you start giving me pieces of that. That's when

I'm a most dangerous. UM. That's when I can start to figure things out. In my percentage of my sets go way up. But yeah, for the weekend warrior guy, you know, and and maybe those are some of the guys that are like, man, how do you do it when you only have you know, two days to hunt? Well, you know, I wouldn't be nearly as effective if you only gave me two days to hunt and no time to scout. Um. You know, I I've I've done that more, um, out of state. But what another thing you guys, guys

got to remember when I go out of state. UM, I feel this is my opinion. UM, I've hunted seventeen different states, so I feel like I can accurately and honestly answer this question for myself. But the most difficult state, the most difficult situation and scenario I've ever hunted in, is right where I live. UM. And it's the the lack of mature dear, so we have a severe lack of older age class dear. It's the number of people, and it's the segmented land that's very small, so you

don't have room to maneuver. That's what I've hunted my whole life. I've killed, Um, besides my first two years of hunting, I've killed a mature year in Michigan every single year that I've haunted at least one. UM. So it's something I've took a lot of pride in. It's been my training ground. It's what I've experienced, it's what I know, it's what i've um the skills that I whatever skills I have obtained, have been a result of hunting in this sort of scenario. And I'm not saying

it's the most difficult anywhere. It's just the most difficult. I've haunted, um, and I've haunted some other hard places as well and also get a ton of pressure, but nothing quite like this. So when I do travel out of state, for me one, usually I'm going to an area that is better hunting, less pressure, more box, better age structure. So I'm I'm transitioning from something that's very difficult for me to something that's still difficult, but not

as difficult. So, UM, it might seem a little far fetched for some guys, but I I want to preface that, UM by saying, like you know, I've I've hunted in some pretty difficult stians and then I'm going to areas where things are a little it's a little better situation

for me. And I've done that so often. I've been traveling and hunting for almost twenty five years now, and UM, you know I've I've never other than a couple of Western hunts, um, a high country meal deer hunt where I gave myself ten days in the back country, and then one elk hunt where I gave myself six days. Every hunt I've been on has been less than that and usually usually there four days or less. And it's it's usually because work is very unflexible. I work at

a school. I don't get vacation time, so I get the weekends. Um. I do have a ton of accumulated sick time. But you know, you can't call in sick for five straight days because they started asking questions. But you know, you call in sick, you know, on a Friday and the Monday maybe once a year. You know, there's your four days. Um you know, so I kind of I'm real strategic when I might do that, or I get on you know, get onto deer. It's like, okay, I need to be out there tonight in the morning

or whatever. Maybe I call in sick. I use it more for that. Um So. But anyway, when I what I've done is is I haven't been able to stretch those long out of state trips um to where you would really you know, be able to get there and kind of get settled and get a feel for everything. So it's tainted. It's changed my whole mental approach on how I tackle those. I immediately and very very aggressive. I immediately dive into, um the areas that look good to me and I have. I have no fear of

of bumping deer. I want to get in, figure out what I need to figure out, find the sign if it's there, bump into deer. Um, that's not a negative thing to me, Like that's a positive thing because if

I can do that, I know where some deer are. Um. You know, if it's a situation where I'm more of an open country situation, I'm gonna be you probably up on some sort of uh master vantage point and glassing and gathering information and try to do that as quickly as possible and then moving in for a very aggressive,

you know, very aggressive hunts. So I'm I'm I'm much more aggressive because I'm on a time constraint and because I don't have the information, so I need to get the information as soon as possible, even if that means bumping some bucks and bumping into some deer. But by doing that, UM, I wasn't always great at it and efficient.

I mean there's been some out of state hunts for sure where I went home empty handed, especially early on um you know, but I kind of like it's kind of like there's a a fire that's lit under your butt, right, That's like Okay, I need to I need to find something quickly. I need to get into some hot sign quickly. I need to bump into a good buck, get eyes on a good buck, glass of good buck um quickly so that I have a strike or two to go

after him. And and when you've done that for twenty five years and you've you've failed at it, and you've tried things and you make mistakes, you just start to get good at it and you start to get real comfortable in that kind of low time frame, high pressure situation and UM, you know, it's just a lot of experience UM over time, a lot of instincts that have built up over time, and a lot of confidence that you can kind of go into these other states in

the areas that you haven't been into and get on a good book. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm going and killing you know, st deer that are six years old everywhere I go. I mean, I'm not That's not the case. You know, those deer happened occasionally, But like this type of hunting and this type of style

that I do isn't really suited for the um. You know, those those really unique high scoring deer, these oldest deer, because a lot of times the trick with those is just locating them, and that often takes time and building some history with a deer and really getting that deer

at his tendencies and and all that dialed in. Most of the time, I'm looking for a good mature buck or a big rack book or you know, a good pope and young sized caliber buck or bigger in most cases and in some states, I'm more picky than others. But you know that this kind of strategy and style lends into more of that more of that kind of adventurous type hunting, throw into yourself into a new, unfamiliar

situation and try to get it done quickly. So that's just kind of that's just kind of what I've done. And if I didn't do that, if I'm like, oh, you know, it's not worth me driving fifteen hours to Nebraska or you know, for nine hours to Tennessee, it's not worth it because I only have three days to hunt. If I if I thought like that, I would never go. So I always justified it myself. It's like, well, if I do three days this year and I do three

days next year, that's there's my week. You know, and it what it morphed into is just like boom, you get there. You got limited time, Like, how are you gonna get it done? Man? You've gotta get in there. You gotta mix it up. You've gotta get that encounter. You've gotta get that sighting. And I've gotten to the point now where it's like if I can get if if I can find a buck to give me a

little bit, then he's in trouble. You know. If I go there and I spend three days and I never get eyes on anything, you know, I come home empty handed. But if you give you a little bit, I get a sighting, I get a glimmer of time, I get a track, I get some hot sign. I find a group of does. And it's during the rut. It's in a good area. You know. I like my chances. And it's just a confidence thing that's built over the years.

But it wasn't always there earlier you said, you know, if I bump a buck, that's great, Like I want to see him. I want I want to know he was there like that. That And what that reminds me of is, you know, we we talked this message all the time, and you hear this from a lot of people that you just say, have to outwork everybody all the time. You know, it's like a popular Western thing. It crept into the the public land white tail space. But when you're talking white tails, you know a lot

of times you just need to outthink people. And you know, like when a lot of people you know why I say that is a lot of people would look at that go if I bumped a buck, I'd be pissed. Like if I'm walking through the woods and I look up and he gets out of his bed and takes off, that sucks because he's gone and he's never coming back.

And when you do the kind of hunts that you're talking about, and and I've done a bunch of them too, you get like very comfortable with what people think are mistakes, right like, because you make them all the freaking time.

You just you're going to and and by the nature of those hunts, you're more cavalier than the average hunter probably is because you're not saving anything, Like you're not you're not sitting there going well, I'm gonna be you know, I got seven days off on November seven through the fourteenth or whatever, So I mean I don't want to go into this betting area. You're like, I just want I want something to work off of now, and I will risk some stuff to find that because if I

do find it, it's a huge benefit. And you're not looking at that, so you're thinking differently than probably a lot of people are about this stuff. Yeah, I mean, the utmost priority is just finding a book that I want to go after, and the only way to do that is to observe it, um, you know, from a vantage point or an observation or something to get eyes on him doing something, which would be my strategy more

than like a an open country scenario. Um, if it's more of a cover type setting, I'm diving in and I'm trying to find three things. I'm trying to find hot sign, which is great. I can work with that. That's That's that's key. Um, I'm trying to get eyes on a book, you know. So I'm just kind of what I often do in those scenarios is I, you know, I'll have my my saddle and platform and everything with me, and I slipped through the cover and I still hunt

with my bow. And what I'm doing is I'm hunting and I'm moving slow, and I'm moving with the wind, and I'm just moving with the woods, and I'm constantly scanning. I'm watching where I step, and I'm looking for sign, I'm looking for deer. I'm looking up ahead. Um. And sometimes I get eyes on a buck like that, or like you said, I bump a buck and because I'm moving slow and because I'm moving with the wind, you know, to me, that's not that's still a good thing, because

now boom, I got one located. And that's the utmost priority is just getting one located. If I don't get one located, I go home empty handed. If I get one located, by any means, I'm in the game, know, Um. And then and then often you know, we we think that you know, and in some cases, in some situations, Yeah, some types of train you bump a deer and they can go a long ways. You think, like fat flat egg country where you know it's a half mile from

one wood lot to the next. Yeah, they run a half mile to the next wood lot often, especially if the crops are down. But like in a hill country setting, Um, I've had bucks. You know, you bump them off one ridge and they go down and you know the ravine and they're up you know, they go and they get on the next ridge over and they start resuming, you know, their normal behavior. They feel comfortable up there and they're not that far like or you know in a in

a like a western plane setting. You know, you bump a deer and I've literally you know, been able up high and you could see them, and they go into the next patch of cover. Um, So they don't always you know, are they going to a patch of cover that you can see and now you know where they're at, and now you're set up for you know that that next evening's hunt or the next morning or whatever. So it's not a negative to bump a deer. I mean, um,

I don't really want to have a deer wind me. Um. But that's why you can when you're That's why I take that approach of like kind of still hunting and still scouting and slipping through the cover and I'm quiet and I'm playing the wind in my favor and kind of working my way into the wind or into a cross wind, just for that reason. Um. And then if it's a rut hunt, um. You know Kentucky, Iowa, Um, you know Ohio, you know where it gets a little

more you know, a little more timbered. Yeah, Like if if I bump into a group of does you know, that might lead me to a good spot, that might lead me to a good buck. Because a lot of those cases, especially when you get into some like lower deer densities, Like that's my strategy, Like I need to find deer. I need to get on deer and usually because there's a decent number of bucks and a good

age structure. If you can find those little pockets of dose, um, you know, that could get that could turn your hunt around in in an instant. Um. You know, I think about like, um, some of the areas I've hunted in like Kentucky in Ohio and even some of the spots that I've hunted like in Iowa, Indiana, you know, the deer densities were lower, but there was good age structure.

And you know, I have many many times like studied um and cyber scouted like a topo map and an aerial map, and I find these good terrain funnels that just like just textbook you know, Like one of the things I look for is like a ridge system that has a lot of UH features to it. So I like ridge systems that have a lot of betting points, a lot of bowls, benches, saddles, just a lot that

should hold a lot of deer. And then I look for another one that's around there, and then I like to see how they connect through maybe like a saddle or a bench system or a big bowl that wraps around and conne to the other one that has those same features. And you know, you look on that and you're like, man, if I could get there, that's the connection between all these ridge systems in the area, that's

going to be the spot for the rut. And I've went to some of these spots in these lower deer density areas and it's like you sit there for two or three days and you don't see a single deer, And so it doesn't always pan out um, especially in those low deer density areas. So my approach then is as I get down and I do exactly what I was just talking about. But I'm just trying to find deer. And usually if it's the right time of year, it's in those first two weeks of November. You know, you

start bumping into deer. The good bucks are there. You know, there's usually a good buck in the area with a dough and there's some satellite bucks around, and yeah, you might need to bump into a few pods of deer. But um that that tactic has led to success on a short term hunt, just moving around, slipping around. Ideally, you like to get eyes on them first, but if you bump into some deer, you kind of see where they go. You know, if there's a good buck with them,

you're you're in the game there. So it's a lot of different strategy. It's a lot of different style and you and I talked about this yesterday a little bit. It's it's being versatile, um, you know, having a lot

of different tactics and having the confidence to two different things. Um. I've never pigeon holed myself into like one tactic like I hunt, you know, I focus on like primary scrapes, you know during the rut, or I'm a bed hunter, or I like to hunt, you know, a funnel between two dough betting areas during the rut, and I live and die by that strategy. There's guys out there that do that and they're super um consistent and really um successful.

But I've adopted more of an approach of I like to try to do many different tactics in many different types of rain during different times of the year. And I think what that's done for me is maybe I'm not like as masterful as some of these other guys at a specific tactic, but I've become good and confident at just about anything, um, you know, any situation that's thrown at me, and I'm not afraid to try some

things that are out of the box. Um, try some things when the conditions seem not ideal for deer movement. Like every set of conditions to me, it just offers you some sort of different strategy. Um. So it's it's like a confidence thing there. And and being a versatile, well rounded hunter. That's always been something that I've strived for and I've wanted to try to become like that is my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is not being successful.

My ultimate goal is just trying to become in a better hunter and learning new things from other guys and trying new things and just becoming a better woodsman and a better well rounded hunter. And then that has led to success over the years and a lot of different types of areas and terrain. I think, you know, the specialists, you know, the bed hunters, or you know somebody who might be really good at you know, spotting, stocking out in the sandhills in Nebraska or something like. They get

a lot of love because it's cool. Like if you're from different regions and you hunt differently, that that looks cool.

But the goal of being like a high level generalist with your strategies, I think is the best one for most people, because you know, like when you and this is gonna sound like a kind of a public land thing, but it's really across the board wherever you hunt, whatever type of land you hunt is you know how often it is if you go in and you find that banging sign so often, especially if you're on pressure deer, it's going to be a place that doesn't lend itself

that well to just like I'm gonna get it right up in that tree and I'm twenty yards down w into all these scrapes and everything. It's perfect. Like you're always making concessions like now I gotta set up on the ground, or now I gotta know, saddle up and I'm gonna be six ft up in a tree, hide and behind it or something like that. To make it work because it seems like, especially if you find a like a concentration where there's some bucks really using it.

It's so often like not that dreamy kind of turkey hunting woods that you'd expect where you could like like or another way to think about it. Probably a lot of people who listen to this podcast never even did this. But you know, like remember when climbing stands were really hot. Everybody was making them right. Everybody had a climbing stand, and you know, for some situations they were great, But if you threw one of those on your back and walked into the woods. I I did this all the time.

I'd find a place I wanted to hunt, and I'm like, I don't have a tree, so now I'm like backing off of where I wanted to hunt, so I can hunt for a tree instead. And it's part of the reason why they just like, I mean, they're almost not even in the conversation anymore because we have such better options. But that was like a specialist thing when you need when you needed just a generalist way to hunt those areas.

And I think I think a lot of people look at that on like a private land and spot if you have your place you've always hunted and go, well, I can go in August and hang stands and I don't need to do that. It's like, yeah, maybe maybe, but maybe you hand a you know, a place where a lot of other people are in there. Maybe you're

not having the success you want. And if you opened up your aperture a little bit and said, you know, yeah, I'll preset some stands and some you know, entrance routes and all that stuff, but you keep that saddle handy, and you keep the ability to sit on the ground whether you're gilly up or however you do it. Now you're pretty freaking lethal because you're not going to run into a situation like a spot on a spot that you can't hunt probably and that's important, right Yeah, And

that that makes me think about a buck. Um, I'll make it quick. It's a cool It's a cool story though, because it it took some creative thinking, and I think I think creative thinking is is is really good to

have as a hunter. Um. You know, we we watch these TV shows where you know it's it's plant the food plot and you know, stay out and this is the strategy or you know, we listened to you know, podcasts with some of these really successful high level hunters, and they got a really dialed in strategy and I do that. I eat that stuff up and I love to learn from guys that are better at things than me.

But sometimes getting creative and kind of forging your own way and and figuring things out to make you a more well rounded hunter. It just makes you more versatile, and it it allows you to go just about anywhere and be effective and any type of situation, any type of conditions, there's always something okay, you know what, this

is an ideal for for for good movements. So but it's super windy, it's noisy, it's perfect time to still hunt, and I'm gonna still slip through this betting area, you know, with my bow and kind of move with the wind, you know. So every type of situation and condition kind of opens the door for for some way to kind of be effective. But this this this particular hunt I want to tell you about. Um, it's a really really

cool area in Michigan gets a ton of pressure. But there's this this creek bottom that kind of winds through Egg Country and the creek itself is only about I don't know, ten fift ft wide, so it's not a real big creek. Um, But on each side of that creek is a bunch of like marsh grass and red ocere dogwood and um, there's some cotton woods and stuff kind of sprinkled in through there. But it's just really really good bedding cover all through that. And it's wide.

You know, there are some parts where the marsh is very wide and then there's other parts where it kind of necks down. Well, I was hunting this part um where it necks down a little bit, so it kind of funnels movement down, but not really tight. Um. There just wasn't a good tree to get in like where you really needed to be where a lot of the deer kind of cruise through and stuff during the rut. And I'll preface to this, this area is is awesome.

During the rut, like early season, there's very rare, you know, many mature deer in their good bucks. It's it's it's like a dough factory and a young buck factory and there's a lot of deer in there. But from mid October you can start getting some two year olds, occasional three year olds and nose and around and by late October through you know, through those first two three weeks in November, it can be really good, um, just because

there's so many doughs in there. But I found this this um cotton wood tree and it sets up on you know, right where that kind of next down. It's just perfect, or so I thought. So I hunted that and um, you know, I've learned enough about the area to stay out of there until kind of those you know, the pre rut starts kicking in and then slip in. Let the doughs be in there, let them do their thing.

I'd hunted it a lot of years and just to no avail, like early season and kind of mid October, but it heated up, so I knew it's one of those spots. So you've got a time it right, and if you do that, you're gonna have a better chance. But I sat in this tree seven times and every time, you know, there's bucks crewising bucks that i'd be happy to shoot, and they're just out into the creek bottomore and um, you know, just out of reach for a bow, and there was nothing out there for me to get in.

It's just a bunch of bushy trees and red brush and and a real tall marsh grass and the tree I was able to get in it was awesome for a gun, but I was trying to get him with a bow and it just wasn't in the spot. So I didn't tag one out there that year. So after um, after the season ended, I went out there and I scouted and I kind of walked out to where like all this traffic seemed to filter through, so that's like seventy yard area. I was like, I gottaus somehow hunt here.

But I didn't like a ground set up because it was just so tall, the able to require a lot of like little lanes to cut, and you know, I just didn't want to go through all that trouble, and I just didn't think it would be super effective. Like I wanted to try to get elevated. So I started looking around and there was these these twelve ft bushy trees. I'm not sure kind they were, but you know, they're kind of like oval shaped bushy trees. And I'm looking

and I'm like trying to think. I was like, god, you know, it's not big enough to get a stand in or even a saddle. I was like, but I was like, I think if I cut that out and get on some sort of like step ladder or something like, I could tuck right into one of those trees. So what I did was I took our um. I took

our old Christmas tree. Instead of throwing it out, I drug it out there, and I cut out this bushy tree, you know, about ten ft up um and I stuffed the Christmas tree up there upside down so that kind of, you know, the needles kind of will stay a little longer. And I stuffed it into that tree to give it like a blob, like a profile that looks like something's up there. And I did that just to kind of create um in case the deer kind of caught on and like what is that up there, so that when

they would get used to it. And then I cut a little like hole for that tree to be in. And then I cleared out a spot at the base of that tree, and I put one of those like aluminum step ladders that on a fold down there have like three steps with the black you know, the black steps, and I took that in there. So by me standing on that top ladder, I lined right up perfectly with that Christmas tree and I just like tucked right into

that bush. Well, I ended up I left that out there all year and I ended up um hunting that during the rut the following year, and it was like my second or third sit and I arrowed a really nice Michigan nine point good mature, dear heavy, And uh, it was so cool, man, because it was just that

creative thinking thinking that got me into the right place. Um. And if I was just kind of like standard had to be in a tree, you know, I would have I would have sat all season and did what I did the year before and watched everything out in front of me and probably just tried like rattling and calling and all this stuff that that is really ineffective here. So you know, just by being a little creative, having some creative thinking and trying that approach, you know, it

got me a kill there. So I thought that was a cool story, kind of fit with what we were

talking about. Yeah, it's it is cool, And it's such a good lesson because it's so easy to sort of get locked into like I'm a saddle guy and I have to do it, or I'm a this guy or whatever, and just you just think about like when I think about, you know, I don't know the last twenty bucks I shot on public land, probably like you know of them happened in a way where you're just like tucked into, uh, like the first two rows of a cornfield, or you're, you know, like the first the first big buck I

ever killed on public land was a was a buck in North Dakota that was crossing, uh this is this one specific crossing on the river and he was going by a cottonwood tree and I was like, I'm just gonna go down to that cotton wodrow. I'm gonna get in There'm gonna shoo him at twenty yards is gonna be over. And I walked up to that cottonwood tree to to set up in it, and it was like eight times too big to fit my stands track, you know,

you know what I mean. I had that perspective of sitting up there glass and then I walked up to it. I'm like, there's no way, And I ended up just sitting behind the tree because I was like, this is where I gotta be. And I guess deer can't see

through trees. And I killed that buck as he walked by and when when that stuff happens, you just think, like you know, you have this made up in your mind how this is gonna go, or you know, like I'm gonna go into this spot, or I'm gonna go on this public land hunt somewhere or this first hunt with my buddies and I'm gonna set up here or do this especially from a lot of your east scouting, and then you get in you go, this needs me to think about it differently now, like what what I

thought about what this was gonna be is not it. So you can either kind of just like be stubborn and just like I'm going to figure out a way to be in a saddle and I'm gonna get as close as I can or whatever I want to do, or you're gonna do something like you're talking about, which is totally outside the box but puts you right where you need to and kind of like your example, they're killing that buck with that little step ladder. It's it's like a great example of like how we give dear

too much credit. Like when you're when you're around them in that situation you're talking about on that creep at them and they're rutting and going crazy. They're they're not that smart, even in a state like Michigan with a ton of pressure, even you know, like if you've got the wind right and you can hide yourself a little bit, and they're they're used to whatever you're doing, Like you

have so many advantages. And I think when you do something like that and it works, you go, wow, like maybe maybe you know, and I'm not saying undersell them, you know, give them the credit, but I think we give them so much credit sometimes that a lot of people would never try that or try risking something like that, and you know, like when you do it, sometimes it freaking works or and and even if you hadn't killed a buck there, you'd learned a bunch just from your encounters.

That's so important. Yeah, Well, my buddy Jesse Coots says it best. It's like, you know, dear, even with cheer bucks, they're not smart. We are smart. They're not smart. They have really dialed in instincts to stay alive, um instincts to breed. And while I don't I do think, you know, maybe we give mature dear a little too much credit sometimes I do believe that you do have to think about them a little differently than you know, your dough, your your your yearling bucks. They do in a lot

of cases behave differently. They move a little more cautiously, they live a little more back in the cover where they have more of a site advantage, a wind advantage, um, a hearing advantage. So you need to think about them a little differently. But um, you know, they're they're we

do give them a little too much credit. Like if you can do that and you could learn about them and their in their behaviors and where they like to be and when they like to move and how they like to move, then it's not that difficult that a lot of times, the most difficult thing is just finding one, you know. Um uh, that's always the most challenging thing

for me, is just finding a mature dear. It's not getting an arrow in the mature deary, it's I'm not saying it's easy, but yeah, some sometimes we make it out to be this huge feat um when you know, it is a difficult thing, and you definitely need to be a savvy hunter and you definitely need to think about things differently, But um, you know, they're they're still just an animal and they're still trying to survive, and they still have instincts and behaviors that are you know,

they vary from dear to dear a little bit, but they're pretty standard. And once you start to learn those, and you learn how to approach those and how to uh, you know, take advantage of those, then the blueprint is fairly simple. But applying that, you know, implementing that can sometimes be difficult. UM. If guys aren't willing to you know, put in the time, put in the work, put in the patients, um, be willing to learn, be willing to

try different things. Um. I I always stress hunters, you know, especially you know, when they're starting out to um, to favor more of an aggressive approach. And the reason I say that is because I think by pushing the limits and being aggressive, what it does is it puts you

on a fast track through a lot of mistakes. And if you can do that, if you can, you know, make those aggressive moves and try to push in and you're you know, maybe I should push in a little more, Maybe I should hold back now, push in a little more, you know, and then set up or pushing a little more and occasionally bump that deer because by doing that, you're making these mistakes and your your instincts. If you think about it and you ask why and what can

I do different? What was the mistake I made? Your instincts are starting to kick in and they start recalibrating. You know, over time, you know, you start to recall these hunts that went bad because I did this, This went well because I did that. Okay, I'm I'm in the same situation. I remember back five years when I did that, or that mature buck did this. You know, you start having these experiences because you're more aggressive. You're

throwing yourself into the game. You're throwing yourself into the fire, and you've gotta learn quick and you have that approach and that mental uh that that mental game of like trying to learn and trying to analyze your mistakes and trying to eliminate them or improve on them. You start building those instincts and you start improving quicker. As appros to you know, being more of a cautious hunter that's

afraid to bump anything. You know, I don't want to get to that too close to that because that's the sanctuary and I want him to feel safe. Well, if you're always on the outside, you're not getting as many of those encounters, you're not making as many of those mistakes, you're not learning as quickly. So by by having that

more aggressive approach, two things happen. You learn more quicker, and you start to get better with that aggressive approach, and that aggressive appro when it's timed right, when the timing is right, when everything is is in your favor most of it, and it's time to go that aggressive the approach is what is what really kills those big bucks. So you know, I would, I would, you know, give

someone that is in a little different situation. You know, maybe you have, you know, a three acre farm and you're managing it and you're you and your your son are the only one on there and you're creating a betting habitat and some food sources, and you want to stretch out the whole season of enjoyment. And you know, you've got the big book that's that's been on there for four or five years now, and he's mature, and

that's the one you want to target. You know, I might, I might or I definitely would probably recommend more of an outside in approach where you can, you know, hunt the fringes and play the wind and and be a ghost and let that deer make a mistake. Because it's in a lower pressure setting, they're gonna move more. They're not getting that human and or actions, so they're gonna

move more, they're gonna feel more comfortable. I would take more of an approach like that in that type of situation, but it's still good to have that aggressive mindset when it's when it's time to dive in. Um So, I think it kind of goes both ways in that scenario, but I do I do always recommend, you know, be more aggressive. Man, get in there and mix it up. Stop being afraid that you're gonna bump this deer and

never see him again. Like, get in there and get some encounters with them, because you're gonna get better at it. You're gonna start capitalizing more and you're gonna learn more, and that's gonna benefit you five years down the road. You're gonna be that much better. Ten years down the road, you're gonna be twice the hunter you were. You know, you're talking five years down the road of of doing that, being aggressive, learning trial and error, developing those instincts. All

of a sudden dude, you're a killer out there. You know, you've got the woodsmanship, You've got the confidence, you've got the ability to go into any situation you feel like, you know, all right, I could do this, I could figure this out. I've I've experienced this dozens of times. I know where they like to bet, I know where they like to travel, I know the conditions that they

like to move in. More I feel comfortable slipping in through here with the wind and with my bow, still hunting and maybe getting eyes on that book, or maybe coming across fresh sign are coming to that hot funnel where you know, you bumped into a couple of group of does and there's a good train funnel with some some beat down tracks and a couple of fresh rubs

on it, and it's November five. It's like, you know, all of a sudden, you're you're more comfortable in that situation because you've been doing it for years and years. It's a long term play, it's a long term development. And I think that's the the approach and what I've kind of evolved into um as a hunter. And it might be a little more difficult for me to be like, oh Andy, come to you know, Mark Jury's farm and kill you know Mr two twenty. Like, I don't know

that I would be that great at that. You know, um, i'd probably see him or you know, I figure out where better then I want to go in and get them killed that day. You know. That's more of my approach, um, and it may not be the best approach always in

that type of setting. So this is just what I do, and it's a it's a it's an accumulation of hunting a pressured area in Michigan where my chances are few and far between, and then and then traveling to these other states with limited time frame, and I gotta get it done in a short time frame. When you when you say, because people are gonna listen to this and they're gonna go I don't want to get aggressive because

I don't I don't know what to do there. But what you're also saying there is to not do what other people are doing. And so like when you think about, I know you've seen this a ton. When I when I walk around, let's say I'm scouting public land down in Iowa, I can I can look on the aerial photos and I can just about call my shots where I'm going to see stands like you can look and

just know where they're going to be. And that's because people are sitting up on logging roads and they're setting up on you know, the little fields or the food pots or whatever, and you just know. And so when you say, like take take an aggressive approach or do something differently, a lot of times it's just don't sit where most people would because you know, like back to when we're talking about giving Bucks too much credit, we make it so easy for them a lot of times.

Or I would say, you know, maybe the hunters out there make it so easy for them to know what we're probably gonna do. You know, we're gonna we're gonna park in the same spots, we're gonna walk the same entrance routes. And if you're if you're not, you know, I mean, you could look at it differently than saying, say, be aggressive, you could just think differently, Like, just just think differently, because most people aren't going to be aggressive.

Most people aren't gonna get off that logging road too far. They're not going to get off those field edges, and those deer know that. Like it's just it's so common and this is something that sounds like it's mostly like a public land, you know, strike quick type of thing. But when you think about like that that example you've got there of the father and son, they got three hundred acres and there, you know, we're really cautious. We don't go into the betting area. You don't go into

the sanctuary. We sit the outside edges. We move in you know by Halloween or whatever. And it's like that, you know, great, that might work. That might work great for a lot of people in a lot of situations. You might also be in a state that's not that great.

You might also just you know, have neighbors that are you know, there might be a lot of things going on where it would actually be more beneficial for you to acknowledge the pressure you put on specific sites and think about being aggressive and going in and doing something differently, because we always kind of like externalize this, right, We're like, oh that you know that idiot that's walking around, you know with the crossbow scaring everything away, he's ruining it

for me. Well, yeah, he might have been out there one day and you've been out there nine and like were but we're you know, like we're biased towards other people's pressure and other people's mistakes. But we don't think

about it that way with ourselves. And if you're going to the same three stands over and over all season long volume hunting like you talked about earlier, like you, you might really really be hurting your chances even though you think, like I'm putting in the hours this is going to happen, when all you might have to do is go back off two yards into the timber and kill one on a staging area, or find find something some soft edge in there, or something that's just different

than what most people would hunt, and you catch that buck off guard, and that's that. That's one of the lessons there that I think is so important for everybody is just think a little bit differently about this stuff because we all have access to the same information. We all have kind of the same like desire to go sit where it's wide open and we can see a long ways. We all have a desire to kind of

be lazy with it to some extent. And if you don't do that stuff, you're gonna think differently, You're gonna hunt differently, You're gonna kill more deer. Yeah, yeah, you know, and I that makes me think of like something you know, you and I have talked about in the past of you know, a pretty kind of a standard is you know, you put you put wind in your face. You you go to your spot, you want the wind in your face, blowing from where you expect dear to come to you.

And that's the safest option. And that's a good option if you're kind of hunting kind of that outside in approach, keeping pressure low, trying to stay hidden. But oftentimes, um, especially with a mature buck and we're talking outside of the rut here before they start doing different things where their instincts flip more towards breeding and running as opposed to early season and late where their instincts are more you know, survival. Um. They they the chure bucks will

move further when they have a wind advantage. So what I've what I've noticed over the years is that if if I can get in a situation where I can give that buck the wind or what he thinks is the wind what we call more of like an off wind, UM, that's that's the best case scenario for me to get a mature dear to move as far as possible from where he's betting, So it's kind of like a high risk,

high reward type sit. But it seems like a majority of the time when I kill one kind of in that early season two mid October, it's got some sort of like cross wind or some sort of like quartering wind in the direction of where that deer is. And and what I've noticed is they just move further because they're able to clear what's out in front of them, um, you know, from from the safety of their betting area.

So they feel comfortable moving in that direction. And that's not to say if you have the wind in your face, they won't move their direction. Now they will if that's the way they want to go, they'll still come, but they might wait till the last few minutes of daylight to do that. And you really, if if that's the game you're gonna play, you've got to get real tight into their bubble um, you know, gotta get real tight to their bedding area where you're risking a little more

of getting seen of getting heard. Um. You know, a wind shift, a wind swirl. A lot of these mature bucks like the bed where the winds kind of swirls or where where thermals tend to dump down in the evening, so you start running a little more risk when you get in tight and I've done it. I've done it with the wind in my face, and you get in

tight and you get them killed. But sometimes you can back off, getting a little bit safer location, and you're getting kind of that off wind that's kind of blowing off to the side of him, and he still thinks that he can move in that direction and clear it with his nose. That's a major advantage for you because now you can get back a little more safer approach

and let that deer kind of come. But what you run the risk of is that you know that wind doesn't always blow that perfectly straight direction the whole time. It will blow a little to the left, a little to the right, so you you know, you might want to give yourself a little more leeway there than what you would think. It's out always just a perfect straight line, and if you don't, if that that sent cones out as it gets a little closer, and then it's always

shifting a little left and right. But that's how I killed my buck last year, um my second buck on public land here in Michigan last year. As I gave him the wind, I had a feeling or where the sign was located where he was betting, and he was betting in the sticket, and I just didn't feel like my setting up where all this sign was outside of the bedding I found all these scrapes under these oak trees. I just didn't feel like that time of year that he was going to travel that far. There was some

great trees in there. It was a little swirly in there. I didn't really like that set up. But the sign, if you know, I think like a um any other hunter would have seen that sign like this is the spot, and it was. But the wind was swirling and it was far enough away from the betting area. Was like, I just don't. I don't think he's gonna move this far on October sixte I just don't. So what I

did was I at the wind in my favor. I circled around the thicket where I thought this year was betting and I got more up on the up wind side, and the wind was like blowing towards him, but it was blowing a little off to the left, and I got I was able to get sneak into that thicket and I got into it just enough um where I was like inside of his betting area, but he was probably you know, where he ended up getting up and

moving out of was probably seventy five yards away. So it was a very cautious and quiet and stealthy approach like that last you know, fifty yards. And this is another cool story because I got set up in the saddle and like you said, you know, I don't. I didn't want to get up high. I didn't want him to see me. I want to make his least amount of noise as possible. I just want to get up above enough where I can shoot down into the tall

weeds and stuff. And I got set up and at one point I was setting a stick and I just clicked a branch just like and I was like, oh god, you know, just just enough where like if there was a deer around, you know, within fifty yards, he probably would have heard it. So I get set up, I get my platform up, and I get settled, and all of a sudden, I see this mature dough approaching me, like dead silent, looking up in the trees right in

my direction. But because I'm in the saddle, I'm on the back side of the tree, and I'm I'm hiding like this, and she comes fifteen yards from the base of the tree and she's doing this, looking right up at me, and she had heard that, and I was like, this dell was gonna blow the whole thing. I just remained motionless. She looks around for a few minutes, kind of noses around. She's smelling. My wind is going just

to the left of her. And she turns around, flickers her tail, walks right back into bedding, and I'm like, dodged a bullet. But that's the game you're playing a lot of times when you're slipping slipping into these these these betting areas, Like that's how stealthy and quiet you've got to be. So later on, um, this the sign that this buck had been lefting was was very aggressive. There's like tons of scrapes open up in that little that little oak grove, you know, a lot for for

that time of year. Some rubs were popping up. And I had a feeling I was, you know, dealing with a you know, an aggressive type deer is laying down a lot of sign and I'm in his betting area. Now I'm in his cover. He's got the win in his favor. But I do know, I do realize he doesn't really he's not really probably gonna come my direction. I'm on the up wind side, I'm not in the direction of where those oaks are, I'm not in the direction of where those scrapes are. I'm in the opposite direction.

So I'm like, you know, I need to somehow try to draw him over here. So I'm not a huge caller, but I will call. I'm confident calling when I think the situation is right. And a lot of that is, you know, matching the attitude of the buck, and a lot of it is being more subtle rather than aggressive, and a lot of it is the location. And I felt like, I'm in this deer's betting area. I shouldn't be able to get into here where I am without

him detecting me. But I did. And so what I did was imagine, the wind is blowing, you know, to the left of this deer, you know, towards him. So I turned to my right in a way, so the opposite direction of the wind, straight line, opposite direction, and I tried to cast my call. What I do is I do a little I did a little brew bre like a long drawn out draw um grunt. Nothing really aggressive, but just a long drawn out grunt. That's been like

my most successful call im ature deer. And then I tried casting it directly away from the wind to make it sound like it was coming from further that way. I'm sure you've heard, you know, being an avid turkey hunter, Like you can have a turkey um, you know, on a ridge facing the other way, and it gobbles and it sounds like it's a mile away, and then I'll sudden it turns faces you and gobbles and you're like, holy shit, he's right there. So that's what I was

trying to replicate. Or in the elk woods, you know, you gotta elk just below the bench and he you know, he bugles, and you would swear he's on the other mountain, and then all of a sudden he comes up over that ridge and he bugles, and he's right in your face. You can cast that call, you know, by just changing directions. So what I do is tried casting it away from me and hopes that he would think that I'm not where I am, but where the call was coming from.

And what this deer did was I just wanted to let him know there's an intruder in there and just hopefully draw him my direction, because I don't expect that he wants to come this way naturally, so I thought that was my only shot. So it starts to get a little darker, and all of a sudden, I hear rubbing in the bedding area and he's thrashing trees, and I was like, this deer' is fired up. Like I caught him on the right day, I mean, the right spot.

He knows some someone's in here. And all of a sudden, I hear him kind of sloshing through the water a little bit. There's some little wet spots in there, and I hear him thrashing multiple trees. And then all of a sudden, I haven't heard many of them Michigan by here a snort wee's and I'm like, dude, he is coming, you know. And here he comes, and he's doing the moon shape, you know, circling down wind. And and what I did worked to a t. He wasn't circling down

wind of me. He was circling down wind of where he thought that call came from. And by casting it up, you know, maybe he thinks it's thirty yards that way or fifty yards that way, but it was just enough for him to cut that corner and work right in front of me, as opposed to if I would have blew the grunt call at him, he pinpoints my location. Now he circles down wind of where I am instead of where he's where I'm trying to pretend I am, and I would have got busted. But in this case,

he does that moon shape. He's circling down wind, but he's circling down window where that call came from. And he does a little moon curl right in front of me, and I shoot him at twenty eight yards. So I mean, just a really cool hunt. But a lot of things, a lot of things. They're creative thinking. Um, getting in tight to buck, feels comfortable moving in daylight, reading the fresh sign, realizing you're in a spot you know where

that fresh signed is. The wind swirls, because what it was is that was a uh a big river bottom system. But it's it's wooded and there's like a opening, like a little oak grove in the woods, so you know it's it's all timber. And then there's like this, you know, fifty yard sixty yard opening. And you know, when the wind is blowing like from the north, what it does is it hits that opening and it circles down and sucks right back up to the north. That creates a

big swirling effect in there. And I was throwing milk weed and I was like, oh man, I can't sit up in here. So then I just like creative thinking, Okay, I gotta get around and get in tight to where this buck is betting, get in his bubble, and give him the wind and call. I think the mentality is right, I think the timing is right. I'm gonna cast this call up there, and it just worked. And it doesn't

always work like that, but that's a great hunt. That just kind of shows a lot of different factors of what I was thinking and how my brain was working through that specific scenario. That that's cool. I think the two things that everybody should take away from that are, you know, obviously it was the right situation to call, but the proximity and the comfort level there for that

deer that's so important. I mean, you know that you you brought up turkeys and an elk deer, Turkeys and elk any any animal you can communicate with that way. Proximity is so important if they don't expect you to be you know, like if they hear you from a long ways away. You know, if you were three hundred yards away banging your antlers together to try to draw that buck in your he's not coming. Not gonna happen when you get that close to him and he hears that.

That's a different thing. It's the same thing. You know. You get that gobbler that's out there strutting in the middle of the field, in his strutting zone at noon, and you're on the field edge a half a mile away. You can call your ass off and he's probably not coming. But you sneak around there below the ridge and you get up, you know, fifty seventy five yards away from him, scratch a little bit, do a little bit of yelping. It's nothing for him to commit. Now, it's it's a

different thing. And then the other thing with that, dear, the other lesson is we we think about and you brought this up like we think about wind almost always entirely, like is it good or bad for us? Like are we gonna get busted or not? Is it in my face or not. But when you start thinking about how they use the wind, like they that's like X ray vision to them, man, Like it's it's the most important thing.

And when you talk about getting that little edge where it's like, man, the winds almost not good for you almost, that's like super important because that means it's pretty damn good for them. And when it's good for them, you know, I mean, like, you know, I love bird dogs, and when I watch bird dogs like or we filmed them like in the cattails hunting in the in the late season, and you can see like they can't use their eyes at all, you know, and you watch how they use

their nose. It's like a master class on like why, like how important that is to animals that have that develop up old factory sense. Like it's a different thing. And so when you start thinking about it that way instead of just being like I have to just get into a tree and have the wind blowing in my face, it's like great, Like that's their situations. That's perfect. You know. If you're on like a rut funnel and it should just be it's a it's a you know, terrain trap

of some sort. Perfect. Great, you know and and their situations where that works. But there's just so many times, you know, you hunt the big woods and it's pretty flat, or you hunt a lot of places like where they're gonna use that freaking wind in such a way that like you you gotta be risky, like you gotta, you gotta go. I'm gonna set up here, and you know, if this switches fifteen degrees, I'm hosed. But if it stays like this, he's gonna feel pretty damn confident. And

that puts you in the game in a way. On those bucks, that's just it's like hard to describe until you have that happen. And that's like that thing leaves a mark when you see that, because you just go, Okay, this is a whole new world of white tail behavior. Um, we're we're almost out of time here, buddy, So I have one last question for you to kind of sum up this. This rabbits with Antler's thing. What's the dumbest

thing you've seen a mature buck do? Like, what's the one time, like think back, like what's the time where you were just like I cannot freaking believe that that deer did that? Yeah, it was it was probably right

very close to when I started hunting. It was in Michigan, and you know, this is back when I was watching a lot of a lot of like outdoor TV and you know, reading articles about some of these guys that were you know obviously hunting you know, unpressured deer, and you know I owned a set of those like big giant white synthetic antlers, and um, you know that's what I saw on TV and it worked down near every time.

And that's you know, that's how I was hunting. And I was in Michigan and I was on a uh you know, on a permission piece, and I was set up right on a field edge because you know that's what you do. And behind me, where I was not even really facing, like I was facing like the beans, you know, and these lush beans that I'm expecting to see all these you know, big bucks come out and obviously that doesn't happen. But behind me was like this old set aside field, um, and I just happened to glance.

It was great betting cover. I didn't know enough about this type of you know, terrain and this type of habitat to really know that like that's that is good for mature deer. But um, I looked behind me, and I see a nice mature eight point kind of walking parallel, you know, to me. And I had the wind. The wind was more like kind of blowing like down the tree line. So it wasn't like it wasn't necessarily my favor,

it wasn't necessarily in his favor. But I just clapped those antlers together as loud as I could, just like you see like Gordon Winnington do it in Texas, you know, just staging the biggest giant buck fight that that's ever been. And I'm thinking, like, you know what I think back, It's like I'm like he could probably see me, you know, like and uh, you know, I'm just like just bailing those things together. And sure enough, man, this deer turns. You just must have caught him, you know, just doing

a dumb thing in the right mood or whatever. But here he comes, and he's coming when it totally not in his favor, doesn't circle downwind at all. It just comes a bee line right to my tree and I shoot right over him. So I don't want to say that that that stuff happens a lot. It doesn't happen a lot. But you know, they do do dumb things, and if you just kind of you you can get it done just simply by being out there sometimes. Um, but yeah, that's probably the dumbest thing I've seen a

mature buck do. After that experience, how many big bucks did you rattle that before you just threw those things away? Oh? Man, it ruined me for years because that totally uh made me think like that's all I needed to do. I mean, I was a rattling fool for a few years and you know, it's probably a dozen or sobucks to see him just to kind of turntail and run to think about to make me realize like, Okay, this isn't this

isn't gonna work every time, you know. And then you start, you know, you start reading different things about hunting pressure deer, and it's like leaving the calls at home or calling a little more subtle, and you just, you know, trial and error, you know what works what doesn't, and you start to kind of fine tune that calling strategy because

it certainly can be a strategy. But Tony, real quick man, before before we hop off, like I think this is worth mentioning, Um, you know, real quick and I'll make it fast. We could we talk about the importance of like of of shooting and being good with your weapon. UM. One thing that I do think that really helps me. It might set me apart from say, like the average guy. UM. And I know you, I know you feel the same way about this is being absolutely proficient with your weapon.

And I think back about these shots. You know that I get on these hunts out of stay at home. Very rarely, very rarely am I getting the perfect broad yard broadside shot at at twenty yards with a deer standing there and I'm flat footed and everything the form is is is ideal. Very rarely does that happen. It happens every once in a while, But a lot of

my shots are happening at an extreme fast pace. UM. I'm I'm sliding my arrow between you know, uh, two branches from two different trees, and there's there's an inch space to get through, or there's a little hole the size of a volleyball to get through, or I'm leaning way out in my saddle on the weak side, and you know, my form is horrendous, and you know the deer is about to walk out of the shooting lane. UM.

Another one. You know, what happens often is is you know, I have something covering the vitals, say at twenty yards, and the deer standing at forty and you've got to know your your weapon and know that the trajector of the arrow is gonna is gonna cast right over that obstruction and land right in the vitals are out west, like all my my last shots have been, you know,

sitting down on knees. My amalte that I shot last year, it was a sixty yard shot, which is you know, a poke, and I was in a crouch like half squat position because the way that hunt unfolded is this deer was approaching, and he was coming up on a ridge and then going down, and then coming up and then going down, and every time he was down, I was sprinting trying to get within bow range to cut

him off. And every time he was up, I had to freeze because he could see my level and so I had to cover you know, you know, six eight hundred yards. And then I finally got my shot opportunity just as he was about to jump onto private land that I couldn't access, and I was screwed. I was I had a branch kind of head height. I had to squat down and get that pin settled and make that shot in an instant, or that animal gets away.

Or my my first buck in Michigan last year was a weak side shot in the saddle, so completely twisted the way you don't really want to shoot. And it was a thirty five yard shot, just about to walk out of my shooting lane and hit him through both lungs. But my point is I practiced. This is how I practice.

I practiced for muscle memory and testing and accuracy, like at the beginning, you know, and during the spring and the beginning of summer, and then I quickly switched to real life hunting shots, you know, on my knees, off balance, a foot up on a rock, um, real steep off the roof, real steep in the saddle, weak side, sliding it through, you know, right next to a tree where I gotta you know, trying to hit the heart and I got to go shoot within an inch of the tree.

And what that does is that prepares me. It gives me confidence when those shots materialize in the woods, like I don't hesitate. Those are shots that I've made hundreds of times. And I made the analogy to you. It's like, it's like, you don't if you're if you're a runner and you're gonna run a twenty six mile race, Um, you don't train for that twenty six mile race by running five miles or ten miles and then expect to

perform optimally on race day at six miles. No, you run twenty six miles or you run thirty and if you're trying to win, you're running, you know, thirty miles plus for time and and so when you run that twenty six mile, it's a breeze. And that's a big thing. I think. I pull off and I take a lot of shots that other people, um, either don't have confidence in or it would be extremely low odds because they

haven't put themselves in that situation enough in practice. So I'm not telling people to go out and and wing shots, these these low percentage shots, but no practice these hard shots, because those are the ones I get. Those are the ones where I'm just slipping it through that that most people think would be a high risk shot. To me, it's not. If I can see the spot and I have my pen and I have my bow back, I can hit that spot. It doesn't matter what's around me.

It doesn't matter what's in front of me. If the trajectory is going to carry it over, it doesn't matter anything. It's still a point of aim and me executing the shot. It doesn't matter what else is around there. But you have to put yourself in that situation and and and practice those shots so that when they do come, it's not your first rodeo. It's something you've done. It's smooth, it's it's it's seamless, there's no worry, there's no hesitation,

there's no anticipation, it's just boom, there's my shot. Okay, it's gonna happen quick. I gotta execute quicker. Boom there it is, and it's automatic. And I think that sets uh my success apart from some because I know a lot of good hunters out there, tons like you know, some hunters that are are probably much better than I am. And every year they tell me about the buck they wounded, I hit the twig, I rushed the shot, and I

hit him high. Um, you know all these things, and it really is just you're just coming on glued in the heat of that moment. So practice really, really hard shots, really challenging shots. Challenge your balance, challenge your form, challenge how fast you have to get it off, shoot it right next to that tree where if you miss and you don't you don't get it right, you're gonna blow

your arrow up. Um. That's what prepares you for the real life, you know, out there on public land or pressured permission land, when you're trying to get a mature buck in thick cover where you can't trim a bunch and you don't have wide open food plasts to shooting. Those are the shots you're getting, and those are the shots you got to be prepared for, and you have to make it count every time. Yeah, I mean, that's

that's one thing. Especially, you know, it's it's different if you can really set up stands and cut shooting lanes and you're you're sitting on field edges and food plots and like that's a you know, that's a somewhat of a different thing. But most of the hunting, you know, like when we when we talked yesterday about this, you know, I was thinking, like, man, so many of the deer that I shoot are some some level of a thread.

The needle shot, you know, it might not be you know, like you might not be shooting like through a golf ball size hole, right, but it's like a softball or something in the cover or you know, and and not crazy distances. There's normal white tail distances, but it's never like a wide open you know, you know, like nothing between you but in them but air an opportunity. There's always something to think about there. And if you don't practice those and you don't have the experience shooting deer,

I mean, this is another thing. And like you know, I'm not advocating using deer. It's hard get practice. But a lot of people who aren't closers, who might be good hunters but aren't closers, they didn't go through the phase where they killed a ton of dose and little bucks, or they just don't you know, they don't have the Western animals under their belt or something. So it's like, man, you're getting one shot a year, or one or two opportunities a year at something and fift of time that's

gonna go wrong somehow. You know, they're either you know, they're gonna bust you when you draw, or you're gonna make a bad shot or something, and you're just not You're not used to that execution at the moment. And man, when you get to that point where you're really confident through the practice you're talking about and you get the experience, like then when you watch them walk in, your stoked because you know you can do it and you're not

scared that you're gonna screw it up. And that's a big difference because a lot of people and they won't admit this, but like I went through this when I when I went hunted with a recurve for a few years, Like the first year I shot so much. I was really confident. The second year I didn't, And I felt differently when I was out there, Like i'd see a deer coming down the trail, I'm like, I don't want them to come in because now I'm scared to take

the shot because I'm not as confident. And man, you go through a season like that and it changes your perspective on what you want to, like, I don't you don't ever want to go into it that way again because you know how much it hurts you and you don't do well. And so that that's a great lesson. That's a great way to wrap this up. Andy, It's always a pleasure to chat with you. Man. I love I love talking to you. Um, thank you so much for coming on, buddy. Yeah, it's fun anytime. Man. I

love talking to you too. And uh let's do it again down the road. Awesome, Thanks man, See you buddy. That is it for this week, folks. Be sure to tune in next week for more white tail goodness. This has been Wired to Hunt and I'm your guest host, Tony Peterson. As I always, thank you so much for listening.

And if you're looking for a little bit more white tail content, be sure to check out the meat eator dot com slash wired to see a pile of new articles each week by Mark myself and a whole slew of white tail addicts, or head on over to our Wired to Hunt YouTube channel to view the weekly content we put up