Ep. 535: Tackling Target Panic and Rebuilding My Shooting Process with Joel Turner

talking how to shoot a boll better. And my guests that just mentioned is Joel Turner. Now, Joel Turner is He's a guy, and that's a name that I think

many of you've heard before. Um, He's he's been becoming a pretty well known figure in the world of archery and bow hunting, specifically for those people who have ever had problems or challenges with rushing their shots, or punching the trigger, or holding off of the target or any number basically almost everything that goes wrong when you are trying to shoot at an animal or to target in

high pressure situations. All of that stuff can be distilled down to in one form or another as a symptom of target panic and target panics something that I personally have you know, dealt with over the years. It's something I've been pretty candid about on this podcast. Um in in many different forms. And you know, oh gosh, since the very beginning, I think, you know, back in well, I don't know how old it was. I think I was like thirteen or something. I started teaching myself to

bow hunt. Me and my dad picked up bows and tried to figure it out, and neither one of us knew what we were doing. Uh. And ever since then, I've just been kind of stumbling along, reading stuff, listening to things, talking to people, and trying to piece things together. And you know it, eventually I was able to piece things enough together that I could get the job done most of the time. I was plenty successful enough over

the years. But I don't know, maybe three years ago, four years ago, I had another situation where a shot was pulled and wasn't hitting right where I wanted to, and a couple of things like that have been in one given year, and I said to myself, you know what, I gotta I gotta do something different. I gotta figure this out. And this would have been maybe two thousand eighteen, maybe, and I did a podcast with Joel Turner at that time, that's episode two oh six. I also talked to John Dudley.

I talked to a few different people about target panic. I worked with some friends. I worked with my buddy Andy May, doing some different drills, doing some different things, eventually switched to a different kind of release, and all these things helped um. I made progress. I had a couple of good years where things are going pretty well. But if you listen to the podcast I did about two months ago with Tony, it was called the White

Tail Therapy Session with Tony Peterson. I recapped my one season and a series of events that led to kind of a snowball effect of me losing confidence and and really happiness with how I was shooting my bow and the results I was getting. And I was again confronted with the fact that, you know, the target panic banshee that I thought I had banished a few years ago

was in fact still there lingering behind the scenes. I just kind of put a band aid on it for a couple of years, and I had to look myself in the mirror and say did I did I really have true, true control of all these situations in the past, or was I, you know, just able to get it done in the moment, but really was an autopilot and autopilot happened to work that time. So all of this

candle ahead for me. About two months ago when a friend of mine, h an acquaintance really I haven't spent a ton of time together, but someone who I really respect, who's who's very good at what he does, gave me a call on the blue. I got a phone call from this person who I hadn't spoke to in years, probably, and he said, Mark, I don't want to overstep you know, my boundaries here anything. I don't wanna give you unsolicited advice that you don't want. But I gotta tell you something.

I've heard you talk on the podcast a couple of times this past fall in the spring, and I heard myself in your stories. I've been where you are now. And let me tell you. You have to go visit Joel Turner. You have to he he insisted. There was no questions, there was no ifs ands or butts. He said, this will change your hunting life. It will bring your

joy back, it will bring your confidence back. That's exactly what I did for him, and he was he was so compelling and this was this is so genuine that I tossed any other plans that hit out the window, and I said, okay, I'll do it. And I got ahold of Joel and booked the time to come visit.

And sure enough, now it would have been mid April, I hopped on a plane headed to Washington State and got to spend a day and a half with Joel Turner, who has become one of the most you know, respected and highly sought out archery coaches now in the nation. So Joel Turner founded shot i Q, which is his company where he you know, handles these different archery coaching sessions, these clinics. He has digital online courses where you can

follow what he does. Uh. These courses have been endorsed and promoted and and successfully used by people as well known as Joe Rogan and many others. Um. But I was gonna get to go there in person and have him see what I'm doing and kind of pressure test it see if I need substantial help, a little bit of help. I need to tear it all down and

start from the beginning. That's what I wanted to figure out, and Joel was was gracious enough to do that and really really helped me out in a lot of different ways. So that's what we have today, is the conversation that Joel and I had just after my full day of coaching together. I have never shot so much in one day. We shot for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours in many different settings, in a number of

different ways, long distance, close distance, all sorts of crazy stuff. Um, it was really cool, and I came out of that feeling a lot better about what this upcoming season is going to look like. I'm taking control. I'm going to try to again make forward progress and and not settle

for good enough most of the time. So hey, if you've been with me since the days when we just started this thing back in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, you know this has been a roller coaster ride for me as a bow hunter and an archer.

And I share all this with you because I hope that this is something that can resonate with some of you that are experiencing something similar, and I hope this is something that will help you too, because there's a whole lot of folks out there talking about bow hunting and out there hunting, and you you just see them succeed all the time. You see all the great stuff they do, and you never see the fact that they

are humans. They are mortals that make mistakes too. And uh, the fact is that I am certainly as mortal as anyone, and I'm just gonna lay those mistakes out in front of you, which I have for better or for worse, and hopefully this can be the beginning of a story of one of the successes that you get to follow along with as well. And hopefully the same goes for

you guys too. So here's my recommendation for you. If you have not listened to episode two oh six, I'd highly recommend you go and listen to that one first. I'd hit pause on this and then go search for Wired to Hunt episode two zero six, because that one we go really really deep into the foundations of oles whole process, the whole science and background and foundation of the way he teaches archery, the way he um has found the science to back up the best way to shoot,

the best way to build your archery process. Um. We we dabble in that in this episode. We kind of cover a cliff notes version of it. So if you if you can't go back and listen to US six, we'll try to give you the basic bare bones idea, like, hey, this is what he does, this is what the philosophy is, this is the basic gist of it. But I really think you would get more out of this if you go back and listen to all of two oh six first, because that's going to give you a really strong foundation

and context. I'll give you the language and the understanding that when you jump up to this one now and you get to hear about the exercises I did, you'll get to hear about the different things that Joel talked to me about, Um, it'll all make a lot more sense. And then yes, we'll cover a few things again, but I think that by covering it in a review kind

of format, it will all click more for you. And then as we're walking through the extra little practice that I go through, the actual drills, I went through, the actual step by step plan that I put in place, the shooting process that I put in place, I think it'll all really click into place if you have that prior foundation. So that's my my ask. I know it's a lot to commit to going back and listening to another podcast as well, but I do think you'll get

more out of this episode. So two or six, and then tune in to this one to see what I did with Joel in person and to hear about what I'm gonna be doing about what I'm gonna be doing in the future. And then I guess the final thing is stick with me through the fall. Let's see how all this plays out. Let's see if I can get better, if I can learn, if I can grow, if I can execute on some of these changes that I'm talking about.

I sure plan on it, and I'm excited about that and excited to share that with you guys, and hopefully to hear about similar stories from all of you as well. So here's the getting control of our bow hunting and archery game. Here's the getting better at it. Man. It's one of the craziest, most exciting, most exhilarating, frustrating, satisfying, enjoyable, uh crazy experiences in the world. Right, That's why we

love this stuff so much. And uh, I'm here to keep on climbing up the mountain, trying to get to that point where I can be the best I can be and uh really get the most out of this thing as possible. So that's why we did this podcast today. That's why I'm talking to Joel Turner. I think you're really gonna enjoy this. I think you'll really enjoy episode. This is some of the best archery content I've found anywhere as far as what Joel has to teach. Um. I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did.

So here's me and Joel sitting in his house in Washington State, recapping my day with him this April. All right, I am here now with Joel Turner. Shot at cute Joel. I just gotta say thank you. It's been a day, buddy, has been a day, a good day, and I I'm

very appreciative. So what I want to do here now is rewind the tape a bit and set the stage, lay some groundwork for folks that haven't listened to the first podcast we did a number of years ago, so so touch a little bit about that, and then fast forward and spend most of our time diving into what

happened today. But for that kind of groundwork, can you start with the story you told me earlier this morning about how you came to the epiphany that open your eyes to this new world of shooting that you now occupy. How did you get here? So do you want the firearms instructions story or do you want the archery story from two thousand eight? I was thinking the archery story.

But if you feel like the firearms one is important to understand this, then yeah, it's it's of utmost importance because I did not know how to concentrate back then, and being a new police officer, a new firearms and structor, a person that had somewhat gained control of a firearm shot at this point, but I did not know how to transfer that information. And that's when you know, we just one academy class. I was a fairly new instructor, and for decades the farm's instruction had been front site,

front site, front site. That's what the instructor would yell all the time. Front side, front side, front side. You need to have clear focus on the front side. And everything was about aiming. But then they would talk extensively about trigger work and pressing the trigger slowly and and all of these things and letting it surprise you, and all this stuff. But nobody ever told me or anybody

else how to actually do that. I mean, we've all had instruction from grandparents and parents of let it surprise you, you know, press trigger slowly or whatever it may be, squeeze the trigger and all these things. So starting to figure things out, but not necessarily knowing how to transfer to other people. And then I had that one recruit and I was keeping my eye on this kid I'll call him at the time, and he was what we

would call a nervous nelly. And so the targets at twenty yards and he's bouncing bullets off the floor of the academy range and they were hitting it about the fifteen yard mark. So his pre ignition movements were extraordinary, right, I mean, just a very his yips and nervous personality.

His flinch was massive, and I watched him bounce a couple of bullets off the floor, and then I went over to him and I'm thinking to myself, how in the world am I going to get this kid to concentrate on the trigger press Because it was a precision environment that we that we were shooting at that particular moment. We just wanted him to get rounds into the ten ring at twenty yards, which is a fairly difficult distance

with a pistol. And so that's when I just I got on the driver's side of his still so I could see the tip of his finger. He's a right handed shooter, and I said, okay, I want you to take the slack out of the trigger, but don't make the gun go off. And I watched him his finger moved to the pressure wall and the trigger and he was shooting a glock, and I said, okay, start pressing the trigger, but don't make the gun go off. And once I saw his finger move, that's when I started

talking him through the shot. Me. I was doing the talking, and so I'm saying to him, keep pressing, keep pressing, keep pressing, and I'm watching his finger move in the exact rate of my speech. And finally that shot broke and he shot it right through the middle because it was the first time ever that it was a surprise break for him and it scared him, and it's it was supposed to write. So that was my lightbulb moment

for all of this control process shooting. As I went, I had complete control of this kid's mind through what I said and then I started think about firearms instruction in a different way. I started to think, why do we keep yelling front sight, front sight, front sight at these at these shooters, because all that does is put their conscious mind into the site system when it needs to be in the trigger movement. And so I completely

changed how we thought about firearms shooting. And in that time frame, this is about two thousand three, So in that time frame, I am uh just now starting to gain control of my own shot. In archery. I was shooting a compound bare bow at the time, and I put a clicker on my bow, and so I was

able to use that as a mechanic receptive trigger. So I would draw back and aim, and then I would expand with some back tension and some forward pressure until that clicker would click and you'd let it go right. And that gave me some more control. But I didn't understand the science of it at the time, and so several years went by of being able to do it on a target range but not being able to do it on a critter. And then fast forward to two thousand and eight, so I'm I'm really working on the

farms instruction end of it. But then I'm taking the things that I'm learning in firearms and I'm putting it over to the archer side. And so, uh, two thousand and eight comes along. I'm hunting down the King ranch and I'm not hitting anything. I mean, I've shot at least ten shots in this hunt. And so I got a little piste off at my buddies because they were making fun of me, right because I'm so when you're sorry to interrupt it, when you're when you're not hitting stuff,

what are you doing? It's making you not hits. I'm just barely getting to the aim and then that would trigger my shot. So as soon as I would get an aim on a critter, I would shoot. But because I was allowing my subconscious to tell itself when to let go, it was linking pre ignition movements to my really east motor program, which carried me outside the acceptable range I was missing. So this one shot came along.

It was, you know, ten shots into this hunt, and I went to a feeder by myself, got a little piste off into a feeder by myself. I set the feeder off, I tucked myself back in the brush, and here comes a hog right as big brown and black hog and he's coming in at fifty yards out. I said to myself, this time, turner, this time, you're going to do it right. And that was a decision that

I made, not knowing it at the time. And then that hog comes into twenty yards and turns broadside, and we all know that feeling of when we believe the shot is imminent, and that's when we have physiological changes happened to our body where we get adrenaline, we sweat, we you know, our respiration goes up, and blood pressure goes up and all these things. Your body readies itself

for a stressful situation, a stressful environment. And so I made that one decision when that hog was fifty yards out, But then when he got to twenty and turned broadside, I got all that adrenaline dump and all that stuff. So I just I drew my bow back. And I had drawn my bow back so many times and had this feeling of anxiety, this knowledge that I wasn't going to get through my clicker. All the same nightmare was

happening all over again in this shot. But for some reason, I don't know if I was just piste off enough at that point or whatever, I got to full draw on that hog and I was locked off the target. I was locked low, and I knew I was locked low, and it wasn't It was wasn't going well. So that one time I said, I ain't doing this again, and that's when I let that shot down. And at that moment it finally meant more to me to stay in

the shot process than to kill the hog. And I'm telling you right now, if I wouldn't have had Texas, I don't think I would ever reach that point. Because in Texas you get multiple shots per day on certain critters or what hogs, of jack rabbits or whatever it may be. And in Washington here I get one, maybe two arrows a year. So it was a lifetime of fail.

Wait a year, failed twice, wait a year, fail again, right, and just the learning curve just it takes way too long when you're in a place like Washington where you just don't get very many opportunities. So Texas was it for me, and so I let that shot down, and again that was my turning point. That's the point at which it meant more to me to stay in that shot process than to kill that hog. So before I drew the bow back again because the hog didn't see me.

Before I drew that bow back again, I said, I'm gonna shoot this shot perfectly or I'm not going to shoot it at all. First time I'd ever made what we call now the original decision. And so I drew my bow back with this newfound knowledge and purpose right. Because I knew how to shoot a controlled shot, I just never could put it together on a game animal. So I'm gonna shoot this shot perfectly or not at all. And I drew my bow back, and as I'm drawing my bow back, I said, I'm gonna do this right.

And that was the first time I'd ever made a decision within the shot process. So I've got a decision I made before the shot process. Now I'm drawing my bow with knowledge and purpose. As I draw my bow back, I make another decision. I'm gonna shoot this shot perfectly. I said, I'm gonna do this right. That's what we call the half drawn moment. And then so I got my aim and I was present. Now I was in this process and I'm aiming at this hog, and all I really need to do is let the arrow go.

But because I was so present, I remembered, Oh yeah, dummy, you got to get through the clicker. So that's when I said, here I go, and then keep pulling, keep pull, and keep pulling, keep pull, and I'm working through that clicker and the clicker clicks and I shoot that air and I smoked that hog. But I never blueprinted how I did it right. And that's what took so many years between two thousand and eight and two thousand fourteen, because I wasn't blueprint it. I had a couple of successes.

You did it right, but you weren't able to describe exactly what you did right. Almo, I didn't even try. I didn't even analyze it. I just was celebrating the fact that I finally controlled the shot on a game animal. But I never blew printed it until December fourteen, two thousand fourteen. So in the fourteenth you did the same kind of thing, but you looked back on and said, okay, well I made this original decision. I made this decision

within the process. And then I had what you now call the critical second, where you just where you say, okay, now it's now let's go time, here we go. And then finally you had this final mantra that you worked through the trigger worked through that final release process or movement. I guess. And you know, during all these all this time between two thousand three and two thousand fourteen, I'm just trying to work this system. But all I had was experience. I did not know the science of what

I was trying to do. And that's when that one gentleman said, what you're doing works, but it's not right. And I said, I want to know what right? So he said, well, you gotta take my class, And so I took his class and Advanced Concepts and motor learning and performance, and that gave me the scientific basis for all the things that worked and didn't work, and how your mind actually functions in high stress shooting events, and how it works against you in almost every step of

the way. So can you give me the cliff notes version. We did a deep, deeper div in this last time, but can you give me the cliff notes version of the open loop versus closed loop, which I think was the main point of what that class was. You took with that gentleman, right, that's when you kind of dove into that. So what at a high level does that look like? So open loop control system would be a control system that's used for any movement that is supposed

to be fast enough. You're not supposed to gain feedback within it, like swinging a baseball bat, swinging a golf club, throwing a football, any of those movements are you you start in a cognitive stage of learning where it's very choppy and it has ups to it, and then you practice with the goal of becoming automatic muscle memories, so and you know, it's just building motor programs. So that's the human learning model. That's how we start cognitive. Then

we practice with the goal of becoming automatic. And the problem with shooting is that we follow that same pattern. But but shooting involves an explosion that your mind has an aversion to from birth. So open loop is where your mind wants to go. It is the brain sending a motor program to the effect or. The effector is the muscle group that catches the motor program, and it's too fast to gain feedback within it. And for most

sports that's good. For most movements, that's a good thing, but for trigger work it's not because if you go open loop and your trigger meaning punching the trigger you're moving your trigger to rate that's so fast you cannot stop it. Therefore you cannot gain feedback within it. Therefore your mind is open then to link pre ignition movements to that trigger motor program, like the flinch in a firearm.

It's the exact same thing with a bow. It's just those pre ignition movements get masked by the bow going off because we don't have a safety on our bow, right, We don't have a bow that only goes off some of the time, right, And so in an archer, this looks like rushing the shot. This is like punching the triggers very efficient. It's very efficient. As soon as that pin, as soon as that pin gets on, or as soon as the pin gets close, you start. Your mind wants

to use that site picture as the shot stimulus. So as soon as and that makes intuitive sense, my pins on, shoot it. Right. But if you want to go precise, if you want to get good and accurate, there has to be a moment where you stop the train and

go close. Loop closed. Loop is slow enough, the movement is now slow enough you could stop it anywhere within it slow enough you can now gain feedback within the move like if you watch Bodie's hinge work, or if you watch me work a grips here on a on a stickbow, the movement is so slow that it's almost imperceptible.

But we are working, right, And now you've experienced that where you hooked that finger around the trigger and you're working and you're talking yourself through that so that you can concentrate on it, and it's moving so slow that you could stop it anywhere within it, and then all of a sudden it breaks, and your mind doesn't know when it's going to break. Therefore it doesn't know when to put pre ignition movements in there. It's basically the

conscious override. I mean, I don't consider myself a shooting instructor. I teach the conscious defiance of human nature, right literally, that's what we're that's that is what we are teaching. It's a much better title, but we'll left it on a business card. Yeah right, I don't know. So okay, So closed loop shooting. Closed loop processes allow us to retake control of our shot. What does that? What does that? Actually? What? Let me let me get let me take a different

angle at this. I guess we chatted three years ago or four years ago or something, and I listened to some other things you've done with other people, and then we chatted through this and you told me about closed loop versus open loop, and we talked about how you know, you want to have you know, actual you know, words or phrases that you use to lock yourself into this process along the way, um, and that allows you to

retake that control. So so I heard those things and I started trying to put some of that into effect, and then you know, I did a little bit of that, and then probably the next year, I was convinced to try using a silver back, which then is you know, attention release. That kept me from be able bunch of trigger and I was forced to slow down to a degree um. And so for a couple of years, you know,

that worked. I had better shots on animals. I felt like behind the house practicing, I felt you know, in control and all that. And then this past season, you know, stuff started not going right, and then that built onto after the first hunt didn't go right that I'm thinking more and more about it in the sex second hunt and that doesn't go quite right. I definitely know I rushed a shot on my second hunt so I'm thinking

about it more and more and more. And the third hunt, I had a series of things where I rushed the shot again and clear missed an animal. And now by the fourth hunt, I'm, you know, actively turning down shots that I would have taken three months earlier. And so now stuff is just crumbling. My confidence is crumbling, everything's crumbling. I realized at the end of the year, you know, I need to reassess where I'm at and what I've

been doing. A friends recommendation brought me back to you, and this time thinking, okay, I can't just listen to what he said and say I'll take a little bit of it, and said it was okay. I need to completely build myself back up and do it perfectly, do it the full way that it's supposed to be done, which is what brought me here today. So this morning we got together. I told you this story. I told you what happened to me. I told you what I

tried so far. What was your analysis of my situation when I when I showed up at your doorstep and you heard what I had to say and you saw me shoot a few times. What was what was like your diagnosis? What was wrong with me? Or where was I at or what was my problem? When you heard all of those things. So you were almost there, just because I know that you have knowledge of this system from our previous conversations, and then you get to shoot

quite a few critters per year. You were almost there, but you were not accepting the science of how it really worked. And and maybe you weren't aware of the science and how it worked. But I knew that would be an easy fix, just just from listening to you talk. And when I can assess somebody's personality, I instantly know. And then we do the signature test, and I instantly know how easy it's going to be for you because that signature test, you know, test your ability to make

decisions right and how deep is your determination? Well, you know you were You were determined. You're a very determined person. But that led to frustration only because you may not have understood what to do with your determination right. You need to turn your determination into not better shooting, you needed to turn into better thinking right, and how to

actually think your way through a shot. So the first time I watched you shoot a shot, I mean I gave you a release that you've never even shot before. I didn't let you shoot the silver Back. And this is nothing against tension actively releases. They are a phenomenal tool and I used them very regularly in my clinics.

I use them for a very specific purpose because if some many goes to attention actior release because it's the only one they can control, then you get stuck in that and and I don't want people to be stuck. I want you to be able to run any release you want, write anything from you know, index finger trigger, thumb button, hinge, hinge with a safety, hinge without a safety. It doesn't matter whatever tension activated. You should be able to run them all if you understand the trigger system.

So I don't want people to get stuck because attention ACTIVIR release forces you into the decision of movement. Safety goes in drawback and aim safety comes off, so it gives you this big separation from the aim by taking the safety off, and then if you don't decide to move, your bow is not gonna go off. So it forces you into the decision. Whereas I want you to be able to make that decision with any release and run anything. So I knew that just from you shooting the silver

back so much. I knew that you would. It would be an easy fix, right. And then when I gave you that that B three Hawk flex and had you shoot it, I watched you put your finger around the trigger and then you started to move and it didn't go off because I've got it set really tight, and it didn't go off. So there was this you can see this confusion start in your mind. I mean, I'm watching all this in one shot, the first shot that

you shot in front of me. So you started and then it stopped, and then you punched the trigger, right, And when I asked you what you were thinking about, you were thinking about the release and the movement and how you were thinking Instead of about the movement, you were thinking, when's this thing going to go off? How much pressure do I gotta put on this thing? Man? This thing is tight. All of those thoughts do not equal movement, right, So you weren't actually putting your conscious

mind into the movement. It was stuck in questions why isn't it going off yet? When's it going to go off? And that's as soon as your thought process leaves the movement, the subconscious rushes in autopilot punches the trigger for you and puts pre ignition movements along with your trigger motor program. But then your second and third shot were better still a little bit of open looping the trigger, and that just told me that's it's going to be an easy fix.

So so from there, I think we then talked through how I need to start putting both decisions and words to my entire process right. Well, first we talked about the aim right and the science of aiming and visual appropriate reception. How you really don't have any control over

your aim anyways you put it. You had a really great little exercise I did that was really um interesting, which was where you told me like hold up a pistol like if I was gonna be shooting a gun, and then you just want me to aim it and not doing and do nothing but aim it. And then well maybe you should tell me what you do. So I do that. I I put your conscious mind into the aim, and then I gave you impact within the

aiming system. So I simply got you to aim at a target with your little thumb front site, and then I tap your hands and you can see my hand coming at your hand, and so your body formulates motor programs against it, form its reactions against that impact, and then I when I missed your hand, you move significantly and because your mind believed the impact was coming. So that's exactly what happens in a shot where your mind is using the site for the site picture as the

stimulus for your shot. And if you put your conscious mind in that, you're going to punch the trigger every single time, every single time. And so then the the other thing is you were describing with that aim is that if we just if I aim and I'm what I'm looking at, it will naturally want to go back to their So so describe describe why what am I trying to say here? I think in the past, you know, pre I've had a several step process. I made one set of progress when we first talked, and when I

switched the silver back. That's when I started to learn not to focus on trying to hold the pen rock steady. I did get better just letting the pin hover and and just letting naturally do what you're describing. And then I think where I've had to now make this next step is is focusing my mind now into really getting this next movement. Um, But walk me through that whole aiming. Walk me through what I sort of learned a couple

of years ago. When it comes to just letting it flow, letting it be, and not being focused on that right. You literally have no control, no physical control over your aim. It's it's through a system called visual appropriate exception. So the analogy that I like to use is driving. So you are driving down the road and you get visual feedback to your vehicle's vering slightly to the left, and you make an automatic correction on the steering roil without

even having to think about it. You make a correction on the steering wheel, and when you get the right visual feedback to your vehicles back in the center of lane, that movement on the steering wheel stops and then goes the other direction based on the next visual feedback that you get. So no matter which way your pin moves, it's next movement is always back to the center. And

that's not done physically, it's done mentally. Your subconscious is very good at aiming, and that's where you should leave it right. You should let the subconscious have the aim, So drawback and aim. Get it done. Don't be moving slowly into the target, you know coming up from the bottom, down, from the top end, from the side. You should not

know what direction your pin comes from. All you should know is get it on the target as quickly as possible and then enjoy the show because you don't have any control over it anyways, Watch it dance, let it do its thing, and move on to way more important things in your shot. Your pin does not need to be in the middle for you to hit the middle. So you're telling me I don't need to pick a hair and have it be staying right on that single

hair the entire time, just perfect. But picking a hair, picking a spot is a good thing because it gives that pin a much more acute anchor point to always come back to right. Subconsciously, yeah, so it's not swinging through the lungs. It's swinging you know, through that hair. That hair, that spot that you pick must be the anchor point that it always comes back to right. And many people out there, many of your listeners, I guarantee

you are locked off the target. They can't even put their pin on the target, and then any movement towards the target causes them to punch the trigger. So you have and that's natural, and your mind loves you for it, right it because it was able to hold you off target. So the pins still in the grenade, and then once you yip your bow up or down and then you punch the trigger, your mind is really able to brace

you for that impact. So it's it's a series of decisions you described to me that I need to make throughout this process to lock me in. And and I don't know if you want to cover all that or if you want to walk me through just a couple of those key pieces, but but can you lay a little bit of the groundwork there that you talked me through. As far as my I kind of viewed them as

like speed bumps along my route. If if I'm if the old me would see a deer come in and I was drawing back, and the whole thing was like I'm speeding through a stoplight. Maybe is what I was historically doing. You've now been putting these great, big speed bumps in the way where I have to stop in my mind, I have to take control of the situation.

I have to remember, okay, now I'm moving to this next stage, make this decision, and then I have a set of words that I that that phrase I use that that moves me to the next one, and then I haven't stop point another decision. Can you talk me through some of why that's important and what some of those decisions are. So if you don't start the shot with the decision, if you start the shot by drawing

your bow, you're already way behind the game. If you start the shot with a decision like I'm gonna shoot this show with control no matter what. Now we're not thinking that's a you know, that's a huge ten point back in front of us. We're thinking, I'm about the shot process, right, So now you are, I'm shooting the shot of control no matter what. That makes us intensely present. Now when we draw our bow, we draw our bow with knowledge and purpose on how it's gonna go right.

It's we have. What we have done today is we have erased the wonder from your shot. You should have zero percent wonder on how your SHOT's gonna go right. So that and it all starts with what we call that original decision. Before you draw your bow back, say something right and no matter what is a very strong, determined statement, no matter what. Then you draw your bow back, and if you need more presence because that's what decision

to do. For us. Say something to yourself as you draw your bow back, if you want to say something about the process, like I'm gonna do this right, whatever it may be, Say something when you draw your bow back, and that will make you intensely present for your next task, which is to get the pin on the target. And then you address the trigger as the mechanical signal that you are done aiming. And then now you're in that

critical second. And when you say address the trigger, sorry, that's you're actually putting your finger on the trigger, putting your thumb on the button or whatever. So now you're working a hinge to a click or taking the safety off your tension act their release. Right, You're now addressing the trigger and then becomes the most important decision in that critical second and gets you through that critical second.

That's here I go. And we say that because that is verbage that is used to get people to hurl their bodies out of airplanes. It is the embodiment of the conscious override of your central nervous system that is saying do not do this right, do not do this movement that causes an explosion and attempt to surprise me with that. Your your human mind is not like shooting at all, right, it's all negative smoke, fire, noise, recoil, you know, bows blowing up, all these things. So it

does not like that. So it literally takes a conscious override. And that's where here I Go comes in. And so that's that critical second, getting yourself through that one second in time after your mind believes the aim is complete. When you get yourself through that one second and you use that second to increase your presence. Now we can concentrate on this one task, which is moving the trigger slow can stop it, and that that critical second for

many people. I think this is this is certainly what I've experienced in the past, and I think this is what you said for many people. That critical second is when so many people that's when they want to go. But if you can stop and not and just get past that first wave of I want to shoot, you get past that, and then you have this this this queue. It's like to say you take the safety off, almost metaphorically but kind of becomes literally taking the safety off

then and forcing that slow pause. Now, all of a sudden, you can do this next thing which you're describe, which is now your slow movement, which in the past would have been just shot and now instead of think this thing, this thing, and you know what's coming. That's the beauty, that's the power of it is you know exactly what you're doing next in your shot. There is no mystery

on how this shot is going to go. Where the arrow goes, As Donny Vincent says, none of your business right, And it's not because if you do your process, it's going in the middle. Why wouldn't it right? So, I mean, you got to see it today. You got to see me perform with my nemesis critter, a coyote. Right. So Mark's out there shooting today and uh and a coyote runs out into my field and you go, hey, there's kyote. So I instantly run to my gun safe, grabbed my six.

The worst decision that kyote it could have ever made. I run the gun, safe, gets six five PRC. I get out there. I'm I'm resting over this fence. And that used to be a nightmare scenario for me. There's no way I could hit a coyote. Before I understood the science of how my mind work. As soon as my crossers used to get on hair bingo. I punched that trigger and I would miss because it would my pre ignition movement that was linked to my trigger motor

program would just put me outside the acceptable reins. It's not a very big target, right, So this coyote made the mistake of finally coming out of that little draw and he poked his head up over that over the rise, and I was able to shoot him at the base of the year, right at a hundred yards. That never would have happened twenty years ago, fifteen years ago, no way.

It was a strong demonstration of your process. So, uh, you know that was just it's with firearms as well, because when I got my crossers on that thing's head, everything in my being said punch it because it's on there, right, And because I have now a lot of experience with that, I'm like, nope, here I go. And then I worked myself keep press and keep pressing and keep pressing that trigger until it went off. And you know, unfortunately for the coyote, he stayed there long enough for me to

get through my my process. And that is what you have to get better at, is the organization of all the stuff up to here I go, because after here I go is a very specific speed that you now know right through your signature test. You now know exactly how fast you can go. But you've got to get better at the organization, original decision right, drawback and aime, get it done, address the trigger. Here I go, and then you work right. So this shot, a controlled shot,

doesn't really take any longer than a normal shot. It's just it's very organized right now. One thing that I that I remember you saying, and remember me thinking I should do this, but never stuck with and actually really truly embedded into my brain and did all the way was literally say these words throughout the decision making process.

Why is that important? Why is it important to not just know that you should think through these things, but actually have specific phrases tied to each part of this process and to go through that in your mind or whisper them to yourself as you go through process. Why is that important to do? And why did that help me so much? More to that, your subconscious is constantly working against you. It's very strong. It's your central nervous system. It is what has kept you alive to this point

in your life. It has kept you from falling off of cliffs and jumping off of cliffs and doing all kinds of crazy stuff. So if you don't verbalize it right, words are nothing more than attentional cues. And when you speak a mantra or whatever it may be, you create an attention bridge right between your brain and your muscles. And so if you don't talk, you're not sending any cars across the bridge, and the bridge breaks right because there is no connection. And so in speaking, it's very

important to actually say things. And when you verbalize a decision, then it really intensifies your presence. And that's what was lacking, right If you just think you know you should do it, but you don't, the subconscious is going to override that every single time. So I mean literally, you are doing the conscious overright of your central nervous system. And unless, and that only comes from conscious decisions, like thinking about jumping off a cliff into water. You got your toesies

hanging over the edge, You're not gonna jump. If you're thinking about the future, like I don't know if that water is deep enough, You'll never jump at that point. It's not until you bring yourself in and go here I go then and only then can you do a movement that will cause cause your body impact. You know, another kind of analogy for what I feel like a few of these decisions inflection points was like for me

was speed bumps one thing. But another I think way to describe would be like a splash of water in the face. Like when when I had to now say, at the beginning, when I was gonna shoot what I said, I stood up to a step up to the line and said, all right, no matter what, and that was this splash of water in my face, saying, wake up, you are in control. This is gonna go your way. This is not going to be the auto the autopilot that happens on every other shot you've taken the past.

So you get that first splash of water, and you're going through that, you're minding yourself. And then we get to that next one, that next big one, the critical second, and this is where I'm here. I go, sid I've gotten very good at I can put that pin on and just let it float and just let it be there. I felt comfortable with that, but then it's now that next point, and here's the next splash of water in

the face. Here you go, and you're in control of this next move, and that it seems so easy when you say it, like just won't you're talking about it, But it's so much harder in the moment when, like you've said, your subconscious mind wants to do this other thing like splash of water like shakes you out of it. Right, Like you said that when we were shooting down at the range there, you said that you could still hear that voice, like like sending the grandstand a hundred yards away.

I definitely had those periods where I would I could, I could hear like almost physically have this like other person in my ear, Like the urge was physical urge. I wanted to go back and do that same thing. But one of the things you had told me to do,

which has helped. And I still I am not getting it perfect all the time throughout the day, but I but I kept trying to pull myself back because you would say, use that here I go or here you go phrase to like sweep sweep back the recept But so when when I felt like, I gosh, they're whispered to me or they're yelling at me from the back, I nope, alright, reset, al right, here we go and then you're back at it, and then it brings you to that resept, back to square one, and then back

into that next move where you said you have to shout out the you gotta shout out the hecklers. So the hecklers are making noise. I've got this part of me that wants to go, go, go, go go. And you said you need to talk to yourself louder than the hecklers. And you know, we talked through using the word,

you know, just keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling. You had a very specific way, and this is something I still keep working on because I found myself naturally wanted say pull, pull, pull, and you told me that was not ideal to use that kind of phrase or speed. When we have some kind of mantra for our triggering squeezing, pulling back that final triggering sequence of the move, why do the words and the cadence or speed matter, Like, what's the ideal way to do that? So what you

say is what will move? Right, So if you're saying pull, there's already a connection between that word and specific muscle groups and motor programs. So if you squeeze, that has to do with whole hand manipulation right there, pulling, which you know hopefully you're doing that by opening your chest to increase that pressure on that trigger. There's rolling right roll on the hinge. What you say is what will move.

How you speak is how you move. So if you get into like let's say, we're gonna use the word pull. So for an index finger trigger, this is very handy, right, so you re you reach deep around the trigger, get it in the middle failing, so your finger get around that. Other fingers are off the release. Here I go keep pulling, keeple and keep pull and keep pulling. It's very rhythmic, right, and it doesn't have an end to it. Or we can stretch a word pull and you hear how it

goes up. Right. If you use the word pull as itself, pull pull, pull, pull pull, you get incremental movement, and there are gaps in between the polls, and your subconscious is always looking for gap. It's always looking for blank spaces in your shot, because it will fill the blank spaces with automatic movements because that's what it wants to do. It's it's ultimate goal is to brace you for impact.

And that's you know, like the core problem shooting. Your subconscious mind will not allow you to cause your body impact as a surprise. It's just not how we're wired. Man. So what you say is what will move. How you speak is how you will move. So your movement. If you need to fix a movement, you first have to fix your speech pattern. Right Like if I was ever tell you slow down, Mark, But I don't tell you

how to do that. What are you gonna do? First thing you have to do is you have to speak slower. I have to slow your rhythm down of your speech because they are linked. Your speech and your movement are linked. So so I now knew what I was supposed to do, right, I know, I've got a series of decisions in a series of phrase is is that have to be inserted into my shot process. So I stepped to the line and get ready, sorry, no matter what, and I started

drawing back. I'm going to do this, right, That's what I would say. I anchored and dropped the pin on there. Now it's just floating, and I just let that float. And then when I was ready, I'd say, all right, here we go, and at that point, keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling, and breaks. That was what I knew I had to do. We talked it through. I cognitively knew it.

How how can you describe to me what we did to help shift that from just a cognitive understanding to then it being a physical thing I was doing and actually implementing this. You know, what do we do physically? When you took me out behind your house and walked through that, what were the things you were looking for? What were the things that you know you saw me doing wrong or right? Um? Because it's one thing to hear this stuff and say okay, I have to do

that and that. It's a different thing to actually put it in action. It only took you a few times to write your signature perfectly, so I know from that you're a good decision maker. So it was from the first shot you didn't punch the trigger. I haven't seen you punch the trigger since or or lesson, right, so, and I don't expect to. As long as you decide to control it, you will control it now. So I saw it in the first shot where after the after

our our talk, you hooked into that trigger. You started pulling and you even verbalized your you verbalize them out loud, right, and then I made you stop talking out loud, because that's not what you're gonna do when there's a big buck there, right. And Plus, when you speak out loud, you're using air, you're dispelling air, so you'll run out of air much more quickly in your shot. That's why this has to be an internal dialogue, and so you

have to get good at speaking inside your head. And so the application of it was completely on you, right, And if I have, like if you wouldn't make the decision to do it, like if you kept punching the trigger, I would then put you on attention activated release, and it's probably not going to go off. I'd screw that sucker down to where it wouldn't go off. I'd hand it to you, and you already know how to work that type of a trigger, so it wouldn't have to

explain it to you. But you'd push that safety and you draw back and you let the safety off, and you'd start pulling it, and I would see the exact moment where you go open loop, and i'd see a big old huck and chuck there, right. It would be It's fairly dramatic when it happens. And then we would I would have you blueprint that. What were you thinking about after here I go? And you would say, well,

I was thinking about when this happens a lot with folks. Well, I was thinking about pulling, But then I thought, man, when is this thing going to go on? And that is the moment that the autopilot comes in and just trashes the party. Right. Do you think that even though the silver back going to attention wasn't my ultimate final fix, do you think the fact that I spent so much time on that has repaired me because it has made me better at making this shift because I had that

kind of stop gap transition phase. It made you better only because it got you to let go of the aim. And that's what that taught you. It got you to let go of the aim, which was obviously a very positive thing. But if I would have if you would have gone back to an index finger trigger without this instruction, you would eventually start punching the crap out of that thing. It happens to every single person unless you decide not to and knowing what decisions you're gonna make, when you're

gonna make them, and how to carry him out. That's what you learned today. And that's how we removed the mystery. So then so then keep keep keep walking me through some of the things we're doing there in person. Then so how do we start practicing this in a way that both put some pressure into the system to test like things steaks can can you walk me through a

few of those things? So the first thing you're watching, The first thing I did is I took one of your arrows and I started slapping you in the stomach with it right where you're a full draw. And then I started hitting at the brim of your hat and causing you two it's pretty intense blinking right, and you're a rock star, right. You stayed in it. And that's how I get you reps in bringing your mind back

to where it needs to be. Because I will cause a distraction and your mind, your conscious mind will go to the distraction, your release movement will instantly stop, and then they keep going with it. Maybe it's slapping your head like with with Beaumar, it was it was pouring water over his head, right, a bigallon bucket of water

while he's a full draw. And so anything that I did to you after our lesson made you stronger because your little f you turner factor went went up, right, your watch, this factor went up, so you've you've felt the distraction and then you're like, nope, I don't care what he's doing and hopefully I'm I'm thinking that you talked than the stress that was coming in. Yeah, I felt like that was one of the most powerful things.

Like I almost wish that I could have someone with me all the time just trying to tap me on the head and do that kind of stuff, because that really really forced me into it, and like you said, it made my my inside voice have to scream louder, and that that struggle to get that control made it stronger for the rest of the time. And that's you know, that is the skill. The skill is not hitting the target. The skill is putting your mind where it needs to be.

And that's why you do these drills like standing on one foot and shooting as we talked to talk about that one because that was crazy. Yeah, So I had you draw back and aim and then lift that foot up. So now your mind is going from the aim which is now huge, the range of your pin is now huge, right, and then it goes to balance and then you got to snatch it away from that and put it back into your movement, and then it leaves that movement because it goes back into the aim, and then it goes

into balance and then you snatch it back right. So you get massive reps in bringing your mind back when you stand on one foot and shoot. It was incredible drill. Yeah, it's awesome. We've done that with some some pretty high level folks and I can't believe I actually I didn't do too bad. Thought I was gonna I was gonna be god awful. Fifty shots, like fifty yards and you put them on the tin ring of that cariboo target. Ye old me shooting fifty yards with both feet plane.

It would have been like, well this, hopefully it'll go okay. But on one ft, you know, and old you with an index finger trigger, old you would have punched the trigger when your pin was on, and there's no way that it would have went where you thought it was

going to go. And man, those days, I can tell you so many times four years ago where I'd be lining up to go shoot at a camp with a bunch of people, or I'd be going back behind the house with a bunch of friends and we'd be shooting and I'd have this like tight chest feeling like oh gosh, and then yeah, like it just it wasn't even fun anymore because I just was nervous. You're gonna pull one eye,

You're gonna screw this up. And yeah, as soon as that pain would get on the target, Pam, there it goes, and plenty of them would go fine, but then you have plenty that would go off, and the whole time you've got this underlying anxiety. And this is this has been like a The last couple of years have been better forcing myself to have a mechanical slowdown and now here today. I mean, I did so much better than I thought would be possible, given that these these relatively

simple steps to take back control. Um, it's very specific and like I always say, it's literally life changing because mankind has been looking for the answers to these questions for you know, centuries, literally, and and that that may be an arrogant statement, but I read everything there was to read about target panic. I watched every video that's ever been put out about Target, as most people have. Because we're looking for a solution that works for us.

We're looking for instruction. Oh, I hope that works for us. And the first thing I will tell you is there is no instruction in shooting that works for you, because your central nervous system says, nay, right, it's not gonna There is no such thing as instruction that works for you. There is a release that you can evaluate better than another release, but it doesn't work any better for you. It's just a hunk of metal. It doesn't make any

decisions for you. Right, So these true skills of decision making. Finding your determination is first. I can't teach you that. I can help you find it right through ridicule or maybe physical exertion, where I always tell people, you're gonna have to hate me a little bit, right, It's got to be temporary, but you're gonna have to hate me a little bit so that you go no, turner, I

ain't going out like that, watch this, right. So finding that determination first and then turning that determination into conscious decisions. The decisions increase your presence. Once you are present enough, then and only then can you concentrate. And learning how to concentrate in all those things. Those are the true skills that we've been looking for, and it is very powerful stuff. I love teaching this stuff, man. So so

we did the balancing on one foot drill. We did the you being there with me hitting me on the head and poking me and prodding me and yelling at me and saying stuff like that. That was one thing. What are some you mentioned a handful of other drills that I could try at home on my own. Um, could you walk me through a couple other things people could do if they if they are trying to do this and now they want to, you know, have some kind of additional challenge or higher stakes to to somewhat

simulate the challenge of a high intensity shot moment. So one of the things that I do, and I learned this from Dan's stating it elk shape, was this stress shooting test where I will just go out and stick three arrows in the ground, usually ones around forty, ones around at twenty let's say, and you know, make it whatever you want, I don't care. And you start at the first arrow, bow in hand, and you run to

a designated place like I have a fence. That's the total runs about maybe a hundred and twenty yards, I guess. So I'll sprint to the fence. I'll sprint back to that first arrow. Now I'm breathing a little hard. So now I've got to gather myself up and make this forty or fifty yard shot with my stickbow. So you know, your chest is heaven a little bit. You're not totally gas at this point, depending on your physical fitness level.

And then uh so you shoot that shot right, and then you take off and you run to the fence again. Then you run to the next arrow, and the next arrow you have to do thirty air squads. So you do thirty air squads. Now your legs are burning a bit and you're huffing and puffing a bit more. So we have to learn to shoot on a breath, because if we're breathing during our shooting, we're gonna have way too much site movement. It's gonna draw your conscious mind.

So now you've got to just kind of suck it up and you just stop that one breath and you shoot that shot. Now you run back to the fence, you run back up to that third arrow, and now you do thirty lunges. Right. Um, so you do thirty lunges and then you shoot that arrow. So it's just it's getting a simulation of the fact that you can never take the same body with you to the line, right, You don't have control over the physiological changes that happened

to you. When you go, oh my god, this is gonna happen, right, And so that's when you get that microburst of adrenaline. All these things happen, and that's when we have to remain cognitive. And so you know, depending on what you want to do for physical fitness, that's a drill that I try to do, you know, at least twice a week. And it doesn't you know, I'm to the point now where I seek stress so much that it doesn't you know, that doesn't really do I

do it just more to stay in shape. Right. Uh. You can have your kids wrap themselves around your legs, right, you can, right, I mean, have them if you give them permission to mess with you, they're gonna mess with you, right, and you've got to use it to make you stronger. Have them push on your on your waist so it moves your body in big movements. And then like wind, right, go and shoot in the wind. Learn how to hold

off in the wind. Learn what a new a new center looks like, meaning you know, if you've got a massive wind coming ninety degrees, you're the middle of the target is not your ex anymore. You may have to hold in the nine ring on a centi in your face, or you may have to hold back a little bit in the guts. You may have to hold up on the shoulder of that deer. Now that's your new center. Once you pick your site picture, that's your site picture.

It's always gonna dance back to that X. Right, So any of these things we can do, Like we went and shot extreme ranges. I mean, I watched you dump one dead center at seventy seven yards today, Right, you learned about pin stacking today and how to actually do it, and how to account for bigger gaps at longer ranges and these things. So you learned all kinds of things. But it was the main thing is it's just another aim.

You know a lot of people tell me, man, I'm good at about fifteen and stickbow A lot of times. I'm really good out to fifteen, but man, you get me to sixteen twenty yards, I'm a mess. Like why is that? It's no different in the shot. It's just a different aim, right, And the closer especially for traditional archers, the closer their point gets to the target their point on distance, the more anxiety because now they know there's

no question that they're on or they're not right. So now they see that they're locked off the target, it just it's a downward spiral. It's a nightmare. And it's the same thing in the comp found with people they are locked off target there. Yeah, and going to these longer ranges. I remember old me, I knew I should shoot longer range to practice at that, and I knew that if you practice more longer ranges, it will make the shorter ranges easier. Um, so I did some of that.

You know, I couldn't stretch out this far, but I would shoot, you know, sixty you know, I think I had a little corner I could shoot maybe sixty five, and so I would do that. But I certainly remember being stressed about, you know, losing arrows and if that if that pin was waving off of it all. I always remember think, gosh, I'm moving so much and you know,

still in that trigger punching phase, you know. So that was just like anxiety inducing and there's no way I could trust that even if my pins going here and there they could possibly find center. But you know, I've slowly been getting better letting it float, and then today doing what we did going through this process. Now we're stretching out seventy seven yards, ninety yards, a hundred yards.

I've never ever shot those far that far before, and and just trusting that I I had no anxiety about letting float anymore, about letting it I mean big movements, and I was just in, you know, just that for that process, and I just got it generally on there and then just focused on making the you know, going through that movement, and then somehow, by magic, these things generally zero into the right right spot. It's it's it's wild. It really you cannot consciously aim better than you can

subconsciously aim. I mean you could. A drill you can do is just you know, grab a pen, put it up, put it on something on the wall, holding a full extension with the writing tip up, and watch it dance right no matter which way it moves. This next movement is back to the center. But for some personalities that's very difficult to let go of. Right. If you get a very analytical mind that likes to control things, they

have trouble letting that go. And literally, my job as the instructor is to get you to the realization that you don't have control over it, no matter how much you want to concentrate on it or what. And if you put concentration in it, you're going open loop on the trigger. That's not my opinion, that's just how we're wired. So you mentioned all these drills. One drill that you didn't mention that gets brought up a whole lot when people talk about target panic issues is blind bailing shooting

into a bail. Yeah, why don't you recommend that so much? It's not that I don't recommend it. I just I know it's factual that there is no transfer of that physical feeling from that shot to an actual aimed shot. So people will draw back on a blank bail and because they're not aiming at anything, or maybe they have their eyes closed, the timing mechanism for your pre ignition movements is now shut off. So therefore you are much more free to concentrate on certain aspects of your shot.

Like you'll find it's much easier to pull through a shot when you have your eyes closed because you completely shut off the subconscious that's screaming at you to let it go when the pin is on. So but if we took a blank bail shot and you blueprinted it like you do with your aim shot. If you drew back an aim on a blank bail and you ran perfection, I mean, everything is perfect and you feel in that movement everything is going right, and pah, the shot breaks

as a surprise, and then you blueprint that. What am I thinking after here I go? What am I saying after here I go? Could I have stopped it? What decisions did I make? Right? You can see how that gets very mundane. But people will go, man, my instructor told me to do six months of blank bailce so I shot whatever ten thousand arrows blank bail and then go to a tournament and it all goes down the tube, right, because now you have a pin on the target that's

screaming at you to let it go. And if you never practice the conscious override, it's gonna completely destroy you. So you wasted six months of your life on a blank bail when you didn't need to. So you know, your blank bail shot should feel exactly like your or your aim shot should feel exactly like your blank bail shot. Now you just add the aim to it, because now the aim means nothing to you. Just get it done and watch it to keep it. And that's how you

can transfer some of that. But I don't recommend people do blank bailing to fix target panic. That it has nothing to do with target panic. So you're not going to fix it that way, even though you know instructors in the last few decades have recommended that that's completely been debunked. So why why is it that we keep hearing people tell us that we need to make stuff the muscle memory? How can people keep on saying we's

got to make it? What led us to this point where everyone has been talking about doing this in such a contrary way to what seems to actually work. I mean, growing up I had I had no real instruction. My dad and I kind of learned together. Um, but then whenever you did hear someone talking about it, so many folks you just got to make it automatic. He's want we must practice so much that you don't even need to think about it, That that's this thing. You want to do it so much and so often you don't

even need to think about it. How do we get to this place? Well, when you think about that instruction, you know when the person that gave that instruction, if they would have actually analyzed how they control their shot, you would notice a few things. Right. Number one, you would notice that they talk during their shot. That has

been a pattern of success throughout the decades. All the people, the successful snipers, rifle hunters, bow hunters, successful shooters in high stress events, they all say something to themselves during their shot, every one of them to a person. They

all say different stuff, but they all say something. And so the person that gave that instruction so many years ago, they were probably a really good shooter, but they did not understand how they did what they did so and they never really analyzed it because maybe they're a natural born decision maker. And that's where the kicker was because people thought they were natural born shooters. And I want to be like this person, right, so what do you do? You don't ask them what do you think about when

you shoot? You asked them what boat do you shoot? What release do you shoot? What errors do you shoot? Right? I mean you very few people are going to walk up to Levi Morgan and say, Mr Morgan, what's going through your head at full draw, right, And the answers that you will get when you talk to a lot of pros is they really don't know how they do what they do. And that's that's the beauty of shot I Q because I came from a horrible place in shooting, right,

so I built this from ground zero. There was I was not a good shot growing up. I was horrible locked five feet off of a target right, shooting over the back of so many elk could make your head spin. But you know, figuring out and going through the trenches on this stuff and really figuring out that's that's what makes me a good instructor because I know what you're

going through. I've been there, right. And you may talk to an Olympic level coach and they never get to deal with people that are in extreme target panic because if you had extreme target panic, you never reached the Olympic level coach. Right. And Plus with those coaches you're dealing with if they're shooting a recurve, they're shooting a mechanical receptive trigger, right, they're shooting a clicker. So, uh, there's this. It was always a mystery and they always thought,

think it's form base. Well, you can fix target panic with form. Well, there are things you can do with form to give yourself a better holding position that makes it not so strenuous on the body, therefore more calm. Therefore,

now we are free to think about some other things. So, yeah, there are certain form aspects that can help, but I would much rather gain control of the shot, complete mental control the shot first, and then I plug form aspects into that controlled shot, and that's how we get body turners, right, yeah, yeah, geez the prodigy. Um yeah, so so okay, we we You talked about how form is of course important, but if you don't have the process, it's not going to

get you everything. We talked a little bit about releases and why you know, having attention released like I was using was helpful in a way, but you don't want

me to be stuck there. So for somebody else who's in a similar place, who's had target panic issues, and who's now trying to now develop a closed loop process and do these things, can you talk a little bit about the types of releases that might be good for this this new world I'm living in now, what your recommendations would be, or what we should or should not

look into. Yeah, so when you now that you know about closed loopwork and how to evaluate a movement, what you're looking for in a release is one that you can set the spring tension. Now, this is key because there's a lot of releases out there that don't have any spring in them. So the only thing you can adjust is travel, and that's not necessarily the best thing. Right, you want to be able to adjust spring tension so

that you can climb into it. Can you define these two things for someone who maybe doesn't know how What does travel and spring tension do in the release itself? Right? So, travel is how much seer engagement there is, so how much the trigger has to move before it can go off. And there are certain sear systems out there, which is the internal parts too hard services that are pulled apart

until there's no more purchase. So there are certain SEO systems out there and releases that have been around for a long time and they're very robust, but they're very difficult to evaluate because the travel is so far on in your mind's like, oh it's about to go off, Oh my god, I felt that, right. Most people never feel to travel in their release because they go open

loop on it, right. But when you're truly able to go close loop, then you understand that you want a release that you can set harder spring tension so you can climb in with no anxiety that's going to go off. So you can set a very hard initial pressure and then you make that decision. Here I go. And then when you're moving, you have to remember that the initial movement on the triggers not to make it go off. It's just to set the speed limit. Right, So we

start into that movement very slowly. We're pressing on the gas nice and easy. We're seeing the speedometer come up, and then when we get to the speed that we want, we hit that cruise control button and then you just stay in that speed until it goes off. And so getting a release that you can put enough pressure on to do that and the movement is long enough that you can evaluate it right, so be that in the

next finger trigger a thumb button a hinge. There's there's lots of good releases on the market today, but that's what you're looking for. When you learn how to go closed loop, you're gonna really feel like if you've got a fairly cheap release, you're gonna feel the trigger system in it. Yeah, so SOCA. So probably the first for ten years of shooting a bow and bow hunting again with with zero zero expert you know, opinions are input

on this. I was probably shooting like the forty five dollar Hurricane or whatever, something that you know, you pull the trigger down and opens up the springs, back clothes and those kinds of things. Probably a lot of new bow hunters start with something like that. So can you tell me what what you get when you try to do what we're talking about, But you're using that. So when people bring those to my clinic, it's a beautiful thing because it's the hardest work that your mind is

gonna do. Right. So when when I put you in that index finger trigger, that's a good quality one that has no travel, right, you can't feel any travel in that, and you can set your finger on it. Really hard when somebody has to work through all that nastiness and travel, right, and they're hearing the release ping and ding and and you can feel the birds in the sea and all the right super squishy nastiness, that's the best release they

could bring. Yeah, because if you can work yourself through that. You can work yourself through anything, bro right. So I have them they're like, well, this is my release they brought like perfect, right, and then once they gain control that nasty thing, then I let them experience what a good release feels like. And then then the world is there.

So is that actually something you would recommend, like for someone who's who who knows they have this problem and they have to they want to tear down and start back up? Should they? If they don't need to have one of those credit ones? Start this with one, try to figure it out. You could. Um, I don't necessarily recommend it, but if if you do bring one of those, if you bring one to a shot i Q clinic, you're not going to be looked down upon. You're gonna

be gone. Yep, this will help. Let's see if you can do this one tough guy? Right? So so okay, So then still on the releases, and you look at all the different things you can spend money on with them all there's a lot of different accessories and pieces of gear and the bow itself and there's there's all these different variables. If I'm relatively new and I'm trying to pick and choose what I spend my money on.

Is the release one of the things that should spend the extra money on to get one of those higher dollar, better quality pieces, for sure, absolutely, And again you're looking for that. You know, you're looking for a trigger you can set spring tension in and you can set travel and you know there'll be certain places that you can look for those screws and if they have that adjustment, and hopefully the bow shop will allow you to try.

I'm just on a string bow or whatever, but you should be able to wrap your finger around that thing or wrap your thumb around it, and work that thing slow en if you could stop it, and you should not feel any travel right, and it also shouldn't be so light that you're just trying to be dainty with it. You want to kind of handle these things right and wrap your finger around it deep, put it in between those first food knuckles that you got there, and then

work and see if you can evaluate that movement. Okay, So for this person, we've asked them to spend an extra I don't know, extra hundred bucks or something on the release. Is there anything on your bow system that you could say, hey, it's would be okay to buy a hundred dollar cheaper of this, or a little bit cheaper than. I mean, this is kind of off topic, but I'm curious if you were going to sacrifice somewhere and buy more entry level something. Is there anything that

comes to mind that you'd be willing to sacrifice on. Uh? If I had to sacrifice, who would be in the site system? You know? I mean what you're really looking for in the cheaper sites, You're gonna deal with durability and what the housing is made out of. But it still has the pins, the basic function. Yeah, it still has the basic function of a bow site. So when you get into more hired dollar, you get into more screws and third access and the second access and all

this stuff, and which is all very good. But if you know, once you gain control of your release, then the world is yours. The world is not yours if you just buy a better boast, right, you know, speaking of like third access and all these different things. We shot a ton today, I mean, more than I've shot in one day, probably my entire life. Okay, Um, I've

never done a full day like this. Um. Took a lot of shots, and not once did you tell me to change something with how I was canting my bow, or was I leveling my bow, or was I pulling my arm just right, or was I there was a little bit of grip feedback, but other than that, almost zero discussion around those types of things. But just by implementing this process, shooting pretty darn good and not once

did I worry about any of these other things. Is that because so much of our success as archers is because of this one simple thing, which is getting control. Or is it because I already had those kind of basics figured out and I was doing most of that stuff good enough. Well, your form, your form is not bad. There was a couple of times today when I saw you your bow is canad a bit right and your bubble level is not in the middle, But that was

not my concern today. My concern was you doing your job, and your job was to move the trigger slow enough you could stop it. And once you do that again, once you gain control, the world is yours. Now you adjust your third access on your site, because you can't even zero your bow until you gain control of your release, because otherwise you're zeroing it to which trigger punch, You're zering it to pre ignition movements, and you don't know which one is coming, right, So are you gonna grab

the bow this time? You're gonna collapse a little bit. Who knows your mind just has a roller dex, and I think we'll throw this one in this time. Right. But now with control and closed loop movement on that trigger, now there are no pre ignition movements. Now we can really zero our bow. And now we can figure out your bubble and your access is and all these things right,

and we can figure out your grip again. When you gain control, you then plug in other form aspects or mechanical aspects, different site, different arrow rest, whatever it may be, because now you can start to shoot the difference out of things, whereas before, no matter how good your form was, it's blown apart by a pre ignition movement, whether you like it or not. So we we took another step.

We we spend a bunch of time here in the back to shooting you and you and me, And then it was all right, we're gonna go to a range and we're gonna shoot a competitive course with another friend

of yours. That's another thing I've never done. Um, walk me through why that kind of thing isn't is an important kind of stress test, I guess for this, and I don't know if that was on purpose, but it's served like serve something because again I told you earlier, I'd had problems, you know, shooting, you know, pressure situations, right and reverting, and so now all of a sudden I was shooting in front more people I didn't know in the setting I wasn't you know, comfortable with, hadn't

done before. And then also there was a little bit, right we're keeping score and all these different things and everything. So how does that how does that kind of how does that fire sharpened? Iron? Right? So it's all concentration practice. You introduce people that you don't know, right, you instantly want to impress them. And you saw how Kyle and I were going back and forth just rasing the hell out of each other. Right, We do that for purpose so that you know, anything I say to him makes

him stronger. Did you notice that when I would raz him, he would buckle down and shoot better? Right, So his he has to get to a point where he can manufacture that determination when I'm not there. Right, you and you as well, you have to be able to manufacture determination. And that's it's a lost skill, I'm telling you right. So now anything you have to seek that stress in your training, you have to seek it, and you're gonna get to a point where nothing really rases you and

then it's only hunting or very high stressed tournaments. Right. That's why I shoot Vegas. Vegas is the only tournament that makes my legs shake, right, and I enjoy the crap out of it because I'm gonna control my shot no matter what. I mean, I shoot okay scores at Vegas. They're not incredible, but I'm getting through my meccount receptive figure every single time, no matter what. Right, So, and that's my goal there. Um, you know with with body, Bodi now has one Vegas. So he he's really good

at using stress to make him stronger. But that's because he knows how to control himself. I mean, he is literally screaming inside his head. And the only advice I ever give that young man is to keep it moving, because I know that if he keeps his release moving, his mind is in the release and it's not in the aim. It's not in the thousands of people that are watching him, It's not anywhere other than that movement. You know, even though his pin maybe bouncing off the

edges of the yellow, it doesn't matter. It's always going back to the middle, you know. But the person next to him is worried about their pin movement and that's why he will run him over like a theme roller every single time. But this is becoming, This is literally becoming the norm of archery now, right, This is literally a revolution that it's a complete pair dime shift away

from conscious aiming to subconscious aiming, conscious shot activation. And it's not conscious punching, it's consciously moving the trigger slow up. You could stop it and exactly how to do that? Yeah, So what's next for me? What would you You're you're marching orders for me heading into the rest of this year, leading into the next hunting season, right on through the hunting season. What do I need to do next to take that next step or to make this a permanent

part of me? You need to go shoot with people you do not know, and you need to talk a little trash, right, So, I mean, literally, hey man, what's going on? Hey? Watch this right, and they're gonna look down and they're gonna who in the hell is this guy? You're like, no, don't look down range. Watch how slow I can move this? Right, And you think about the pressure, because now you have to perform. You have to go hunt turkeys. You have to shoot as many groundhogs as

you can. Right, pretty soon, none of that stuff is gonna cause you extress. Then it's dear season, right, you have to If you're allowed to shoot ten does, then go shoot ten does, right, and donate him to food banks or whatever you need to do. But shoot as many critters as you can. And then when that big buck steps up, it's not gonna be autopilot. Right. It's the same process. You get better and better and better

at it. Like in in twenty nineteen, I killed the bowl of my dreams, and that thing when he came around, I called him in. He came around this root wad at thirty yards and his eyes were literally rolled back in his head. And and I'm I'm hiding behind the limb of my recurve, and he's walking at me. And he stops at ten yards, sticks his antlers in the ground and starts throwing mud and sticks and all kinds of crap all over the place. And I finally get to full draw as soon as I get the full draw.

He flips his body perfectly broadside to me at ten yards Bull of my dreams, right, and I'm looking down the shaft at that arrow, and I'm looking at the exact spot where my arrow is going to go, because I can see exactly where my arrow is pointed. And I'm looking down the shaft that arrow, and every fiber of my being is saying, just let it go, right, just let it go. You're gonna kill him, bull your dreams. You've waited fourteen years to draw this tag. Here he is.

Just let it go. And I remember saying to myself, Nope, I ain't going out like that, because you see the antlers that are in this room where we're standing right now. These were all shot with controlled shots. All the ones that are uncontrolled don't make it in the house there in the bar that right, So this bull is there and I'm like, nope, I ain't doing it. And that's when I said, here I go, and I start pressing on that grips ear and pretty soon pink that thing pops.

I let the arrow go and it went in the exact spot that I wanted to And it means so much to me. It means way more to me to stay in the shop process because at that time, in twenty nineteen, I was still on the swat team, still a sniper and all those things, right, So I use all of these hunting situations for potential tactical situation right where my determination has to be through the roof. So

it's you know, and vice versa. I used the law enforcement determination, the knowledge that I can't screw that up, and I use that determination well in my bow hunting. So it was really this dichotomy of concentration, these two different schools that had to come together. Right, my archery help my firearms, and my firearms help my archer. Like one of the best things you could do is now take that tourist forty four nuclear magnum that you have

right and shoot controlled shots with it. Right, that thing in a hundred yards, I mean it's a hundred yard gun all day long, right, If you press the trigger perfectly right and get big recoil loads for it, right and press that trigger slow enough, you could stop it.

When that nuclear magnum box your bow is gonna seem really easy to imagined, right, But but shot anticipation firearms is not even close to what it is an archery, because an archery, your body is intentioned and you are the explosion, right, all that all that energy release is gonna be through your body, Whereas in a firearm, the recoil is generated from the gun itself, right, So it's different, and your body is not intention with the firearm. You're

not trying to hold this thing apart. You're just trying to hold the firearms, right, So it's uh. You know when you say iron sharpens iron, you can certainly use your archery to help your firearms, and your firearms help your archery. That's that's the intention I'm gonna do it. I mean, I've had the same problem with with every thing. And if I look back honestly on all the deer and another big game I've shot over the years, um, I could probably honestly tell you only one of them.

Do I actually could? I look back and say I think I had some control. I honestly think all the rest was autopilot getting me good enough and enough times it would work and sometimes things were great and then but I have enough of those other times where it didn't work out. That to what we talked about earlier, I had that just enough is enough. I'm piste off. I can't good enough isn't good enough anymore? And I cannot wait for that first time now where I really

it's not just well I was better. I want. I want to be fully in control and after that shot be like, Wow, I actually did it all and had the home that'll be I'll be so I'll probably follow the tree else. It means so much to be in control because that's what man kind has been trying to do for a long time. Bro. So when you actually shoot a shot, it's a controlled shot, doesn't matter what the critter is. It will mean so much to you, right, it has to mean everything to you. And and people

say we'll turn your kind of a shot control freak. Well, I want to control everything I can because I truly believe that the critters deserve that. Right. I'm not going to miss a critter because I collapsed or punched my trigger or something like that. I'm not gonna wound a critter because of that. Now, we can't control what the critter does, right, they jumped the string, you hit a limb, whatever, Maybe that's out of our control. But your trigger movement

is within your control. It is within your domain. And I really truly believe that that those the animals that we harvest deserve that. Yeah, and that's that's why I'm here. I mean, I was just Yeah, you flew a long ways to get here, body, and I'll tell you this. UM, I found I I you know, as I discussed we talked before in the podcast number of years ago, I listened to some other things and I learned a lot

and I took value out of that. UM. But taking this next step, you know, being here with you in person, and I imagine if I would have gone through the digital course or gone to a clinic or something like that, I do think that that extra depth and UM, I don't know it. It took this form for me at least to really get it all the way in and and it has been tremendously helpful to have you here to to see also to get that direct feedback like what am I doing this right? Does this field right?

You know? There's something to be said about um. One of the things I thought is like I think this is a surprise release or I think I'm doing this right, but not being able to see it myself and not knowing if maybe I am pulling here a little bit or something. So all that's to say, uh, this has been tremendously helpful, and uh thank you for people that well, for people that want to either go to one of your in person clinics or if they want to check

out the digital course or anything like that. Where can people learn about shot i q and and all the different things that you have out there that can help them. Yeah, so it's shot i q dot com is the website, and Joel Turner at shot i q dot com is my is my email and hit me up. And so we have our online course that is on shot i q dot com and you learn all the things you

learn today. It's just you're watching my pretty face on the screen, right and it's just video after video and explain explanation of the science and then how to implement it with a trad bow and how to implement it with every type of release on your compound system. So that's that's pretty cool that that is sold globally. It's it's all over the place and people are finding I mean, I get thank you notes every single day on that.

How it's you know, change their life or whatever. It's really cool to get this feedback and like, I was just reading you an email that I got from a guy from Italy, right, and he's he's trying to translate what's going on, but it's it's worldwide and it is a revolution and it's really cool. So shot i q dot com that's where all the that's where it all happens.

And then my live clinics are by request only and so like an archery shop will request or a private citizen may request, and there are some there are some minimums to hit with those, um but just email me if you're interested in a clinic and we'll make it happen. I'm pretty booked for but we're starting to book into the three years, so it's a it's it's all over, man. It's good. And I just retired, so now I'm this is shot i Q full time, So this is my

job now. Well, I'm glad that you're able to spend all your time doing this because I think it's making a difference to help people. It's helping I think, you know from everything I've heard from other people that have gone through this process, it's bringing joy back to people in a thing that they have enjoyed so much but there's been this black cloud hanging over part of it, and you if you can remove that black cloud and bring back the confidence which brings back the fun and

the joy. I think that, like you have said, I mean, it could be life changing and uh man, after last year, I'm ready for that. Twenty twenty two, whatever this year is, I'm ready for a different year. So thank you, Joel. That's been great. You're welcome, okay, and that's a rap. Appreciate you tuning in. I recommend, as I said already, go check out all of Joel's stuff, his courses, his clinics, social media. He's got a lot of good things going on and as you can see, a lot to offer.

So thank you for tuning in, Thanks for being with me on this one or found along with this journey. Until next time, shoot your bow and stay wired to hun