Ep. 533: A Deer Hunter's Guide to Planting and Improving Native Grass Habitats with Chris McLeland

Chris mc leland. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light, and we're talking grass today, grass land habitat, grasses, forbes, pollinator habitat, all that good stuff. This is our last episode of our Habitat series. We've covered everything from southern whitetail habit improvement to how to get started if you're new to this kind of stuff. Last week we talked trees and

today we're talking grass. And if you tune into our episode, like a month and a half ago or so, we spoke with another person from Pheasants and Forever, that was Bethany Herb and we were talking about kind of large scale grassland habitat issues, the importance of grass habitat, prairie habitat, grassland habitat across the country, and the fact that we've lost I think something like fifty three million acres of

this ground in just a little over the last decade. Uh. This is tremendously important habitat for deer and birds, bugs, all sorts of stuff, and we're losing it. So in that episode back then, we discussed high level ideas for how, you know, we could work to advocate for new legislation that will hopefully get more grassland habitat on the ground.

But today I want to talk about what we can do as individuals if we own land, if we have access to land where we have permission to improve the ground, what can we do to get grassland habitat out there? And why should we do that? You know, I think that I don't think. I know that doing that is not only gonna be good for the earth and the animals, but it's actually gonna be really good for your hunting too.

So that's what we discussed today with Chris mcleland. Chris is the VP of Conservation Delivery for Pheasants Forever, so he does this thing for a career. His job is working with people to help get better habitat out there. But he's not just a pheasant guy. He actually has a long history as a deer hunter too, so he can speak to us from a white tailor's perspective on how this can actually help us with our deer, with our deer hunting, and with the good times we want

to have out on our ground. And that's our plan. Today. We cover a lot about why this stuff matters. We cover a lot about how to make decisions around what to plant, where to planet, when to planet, how much should we plant, all that kind of stuff, and then we spend a good amount of time then discussing how to actually do it. You know, do you need a broadcaster or a cedar or a drill? You know, do you need to spray? Do you need to burn? How to do all those different things We covered all today.

So if you've ever wanted to put something in your ground, something like CRP type habitat that you see, you know on TV that looks so great and you see these antlers rise out of the grass and come walking over the hill, you know that that dream scenario. If you've ever wanted to live that yourself, you want to listen today's episode as well. So I think, without any further ado, let's get into this chat with Chris mc leland. All right, I am here now with Chris McK leland. Chris, welcome

to the show. Hey, thank you very much for having me. Excited to be here. Yeah, I'm excited too. I'm excited to have you. This is gonna be no pressure, but this is the the finale of our Habitat series. Month. We've we've covered I think this is our fifth week of episodes and we're ending with this one. So we gotta end on a high note. All right, Chris, can you do that for me? I got Hey, I got you covered. I'll do my I'll do my absolute best.

No pressure, exactly right. I got you covered though. Well. Speaking of pressure, though, I gotta ask you this to kick things off. Your title at PF is VP of Conservation Delivery. At least that's the latest title I've seen for you. Is that first off? Is that accurate? VP of Conservation Delivery? Yeah, that's that's that's accurate. I've been in I've been in this role for it'll be a year in July, so it's a new kind of a new position within the organization. And uh, that's uh, that's

the seat that I sit in. Okay, So the vice President of Conservation Delivery. That sounds really really importantly. It almost sounds like you, yourself alone, are responsible for the entirety of what Pheasants Forever is about, because the Pheasants Forever is conservation and you're in charge of delivering conservation. A do you feel that pressure and be what does that mean? What do you actually do? Chris? Yeah, I appreciate that. To answer your question, yes, I do. I

do feel that pressure. But thankfully it's uh, it's I have an incredible team UM out there across the country that are that are are doing the real heavy heavy lift. And UM, you know, really what my role here is is UM within Pheasants Forever Quell Forever, is is to put habitat on the ground. Uh, you know, no if and ors or, but that's what that's what we're about. UM. We strive to be a force multiplier for conservation across the country, UM, public lands, private lands, working with a

just a diversity of state and federal partners. And my my role is really too make sure that our field biologists and our our state and regional leadership across the country they have what they need UM to do their job to the best of their abilities and put as much habitat on the ground and and service those partners and landours we work with to the best of their ability. So um, my job is to to make sure our team has the tools they need and then just get out of the way and let them do what they

do best. So there's pressure in that only because I uh, I've got such incredible staff and and we have such incredible biologists here that um, you know, I never want to be the bottleneck or the pinch point or have anybody waiting on me. So um, as far as getting good work done and putting high quality habitat on the ground I have, I'm just so proud of our team and and and just him thankful to work alongside them.

But but yeah, this, this position, this role is um is never dull, and I really like that, so um so yeah, it's it's pretty pretty rewarding. So so you know, obviously our audiences is mostly white tail focused, so there might be a decent chunk of people listening that don't really have a clear idea of how Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever works. Can you give us a little more clarity on exactly, like, how does PF put habitat on the ground. As you said, like, what what does that

actually mean an action? How do you guys make those things happen? Yeah, it's a great question. It's it's been an evolution to be honest with you, and we're kind of UM, you know, continue into to ride to ride that way. You know. Organizations started in UM. You know, we're grassroots, volunteer based five oh one C three UM Conservation not for profit UM. And we started very similarly to M you know, we have a very similar story

too many conservation NGOs. Our organizations UM was started in a basement UM and and really grew, UM, you know, grew from there and for many, many many years, the way that Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever delivered its mission to put a cat on the ground was through our volunteers. There are you know, men and women you know, giving their time to go out and turn the dirt and UH put a wildlife have a tat on the ground. Primarily on public lands at that time, UM, some private

land projects. But as our organization grew and our our volunteer base grew, UM, we started UH just asking some tough questions. So how can we do this, How can we do this better? How can we impact the landscape and and as UH you know, a beneficial and positive way to the fullest extent. Again being a forced multiplier for all the good things going on out there, how

can we help lift that boat a little higher? And in two thousand and four we had the opportunity to partner UM to put the first private land biologists through Pheasants Forever, Quill Forever on the Ground and and UM. And since that time that program has has continued to

grow along side our chapter volunteers. UH, we have UH an army of men and women out there UM that are working one on one with landowners providing conservation technical assistance on on any private land habitat project they have, you know, peasants and quail. That's great, But we do so much habitat work for UM. You know, where the objective is white tails or it's wild turkey or it's waterfowl. You know, we don't we don't you know. We we we go where the landowner goes, and so we want

to help them achieve their objective. And so we have UM. We have an entire workforce of of AS our CEO refers to them as as fire eaters. You know, men and women out there just eager and hungry to put habitat on the ground. And uh and UM, you know, we've we've partnered with you know, as I mentioned, state and federal organizations to help make those things happen our chapters as well. UM and uh we've kind of expanded now into the public um public land phase of this.

So now we have we're starting to grow an arm of our organization that's providing boots on the ground on those w M A s UM to help resource managers do a little more there and fill some holes and um and also provide additional public access. We have staff out there across the country that are working to create more public land for folks to uh, to enjoy and recreate on. So so it's been an evolution, I mean,

it really has been. And and but we you know, the way we get work done is is not by ourselves. I mean, I think that's the biggest take home as it takes willing partners, willing volunteers, willing landowners and and we're there's genuine interest and desire to do good things for wildlife. We're gonna be there and do everything we can to make it happen for him. So, UM, it's a blessing to be here, and we're very thankful and fortunate to you know, have made it this far. Sure,

that's awesome. Uh it sounds like a lot of work though, there's a lot of moving pieces. You put it in a lot of years doing this. Uh, I'm sure investing a ton of time and energy and blood and sweat and tears, all those cliche things. Right. Uh yeah, why do you do it? Why? Why did you choose to make a career and a life revolved around conservation. Yeah, that's a that's a good question. I So I'm from central Missouri, grew up in a really rural community, great community, UM,

agricultural community. Um, most of my family is still there, and and uh, you know, it was just one of those things where you know, I loved I loved you know, being in a rural landscape. I grew up hunting and fishing with my grandfather's and my dad and my uncle's and you know, I just, for whatever reason, just developed a passion to be outside. You know this, this majesty, Um, you know that there's still can be unknowns out there. You know that there's still wild things, um out there

just always you know, appealed to me. And it was something that just was a calling for me. And and I've never it's a very hard, uh feel too to stick with because it it can be it can be challenging, but um, there was never an alternative for me. I wanted to to make a difference, um and and make sure that you know, there was healthy landscapes and and plenty of wildlife out there on those landscapes, and and um, you know, I was gonna make this work one way

or the other. And it's definitely been hard, um at times, but it's been the most rewarding thing I think I could have ever been involved with. And I'm just very thankful to have found my way to to the seat that I'm in today. And um and you know, even on the artist days, there's still there's still some so many positives to be thankful for and so um, yeah, I just can't imagine doing anything else, honestly, Yeah, I love that. So what about what about on the actual

land work side. You know, I I see that you've got a family property where you're doing work on your own land, and you know, improving, improving the ground yourself and all that kind of stuff. I'm sure that is helping you with your hunting goals, right, but but but why do you do that? What is it about actually work in the ground yourself and trying to make that

place specifically better? What's what is it about that? Because this whole you know, last month we've been talking about it's been you know, diving into a should you you know, should you try to improve the habitat that you have influence over and then how to do it? But I'm curious for you, like why, what's your pitch for why or what it is? What is it for you? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, Well, for one thing, it's um, you know it. It's like anything,

you know it nothing stays the same. You know when one of the first things you learned UM, you know when you're when you're in you know you can chasing this this career is UM the term succession. What that simply means is, you know, as the clock ticks things things change. And so when you think about you know, your property and you think about habitat and the quality of habitat, UM. You know, if you don't stay active and in the wildlife habitat world, disturbance is a good thing.

You want. You want disturbance because that's constantly setting succession back. And generally what that equates to is is it increases the quality of the habitat that you have. And so you know, from from simply a recreational habitat standpoint, you know, I want to ensure that I have the highest quality habitats, you know, for for the species I'm interested in on my property as possible. In order to do that, I

gotta get I gotta get active. And um, one of the most common I guess misconceptions that many have is, UM that you can overdo it. And you certainly can. But most of the time, you know, you're you're not going to be as active as you probably should be with your management right out of the gate, because it's just gonna seem like it's a it's a bit too much. But you know, so for for those reasons, I just want to ensure that I have the highest quality habitat

that I that I can have on my property. I also, you know that for me personally, there's a legacy component to it. You know, I like to I like to know that, UM, you know that this property whenever I whenever I leave, whenever that may be, is is better than it was when I acquired it. And you know, and and you start as you get out and you start turning the dirt, you start putting a little fire

on the landscape, and you start seeing these changes. I think naturally there's this desire to want to learn more about what you're seeing. And I've seen that so many times with landowners I've been privileged to work with over the years. Is you know, you talk about what you could expect to see if they do practice A, B and C. And if they do that and they see those changes that you sort of predicted, there's always this They become very inquisitive. Okay, now what's this flower or

what you know? Why did that happen here? But we've got a different response over here. And then the more they learn and the more you know, exciting, they get excited, they get um the more that passion for you know, not just that the animal that they're chasing, you know, it's it's the land itself. You know, it's the it's the ecology that's going behind it, that's driving the bus

behind it. That it starts really lighting the fire there, and and and that fire has been burning bright for me for a really long time, and so, um, you know that's that's kind of that's kind of why I get to do it, and um, you know, it helps

make me feel connected to what I'm trying to accomplish. Yeah, you know, as you were just describing that, it made me think of an analogy that I think helps describe something I've tried saying in the past, which is, you know, once I started working on habitat projects myself, kind of like you, you start seeing so much more around it. You start connecting to the landscape in so many different ways, and it like opens your eyes to a whole world

that was around you you just never really realized it. Um. It's kind of like, and I don't I think you do some fishing, it's kind of like putting on polarized sunglasses. If you don't have those polarized glasses and you look at the water, you just see glass reflecting up at you, right, But you throw those polaroids on, all of a sudden, you can see the fish, you can see the rocks, you can see the algae, you can see the wood,

you can see everything underneath the surface. And I feel like as soon as you start working with the land, it's the same kind of thing. It's not no longer am I just passing through the woods trying to find a deer. I am passing through a landscape, which I'm seeing all these different moving pieces and parts. Now that I that I get, that, I that I understand to some degree that I just never would have before. That's a that's an incredible analogy. I'm gonna to feel that one.

That's that's that's that's a really good one. I It's exactly right, you know, and you you just have much more depth and perspective to um, you know, to to what you're trying to accomplish, you know, and UM and what it helps you understand at times, and we're talking about diversity and habitat structure, and it it gives anyone the understanding that whether they have forty acres or four hundreds, UM,

there's always more that can be done. And you can also make an incredible impact, um, you know on your forty, just like you can on your four hundred. I mean, it's it is, um, you know, it's just a matter of understanding what's going on and understanding what the limiting

factors are. Um, you know, the healthier that that property is, that landscape is, UM, the more diverse it is, you know, the more wildlife you're gonna have, and UM, you know, all creators, but definitely a species you're looking for to um. You know. So it's it's just a better deeper perspective and and uh you know that's that's sort of the end goal. Yeah, all right, so let's let's talk about then how we do it. You've got me sold on the fact that I should keep doing it, but let's

talk about how to do it now. You Chris have been drafted as the grass guy. Okay, because you know when we talk, when we talk white tail habitat, a lot of the time, like food plots get a ton of press. They're very sexy. Everybody wants to talk about food plots. If I were to go down the line a little bit more, maybe we're going to talk about, you know, chain cell work. People get pretty excited about

cutting trees or planting trees. To right. We just last week talked with some folks about plant ning trees, you know, putting trees in the ground, getting apples out there, all that kind of stuff that seems pretty obvious. Um, something that doesn't get a ton of play. It's been talked about more, but still nothing like food plots or timber management.

Is grassland type habitat. If we were in an elevator, Chris, and you had like thirty seconds or a minute to pitch me on why a white tail hunter should be thinking about grasses and forbes and that kind of early successional grassland type habitat, why they should put that on their property. Pitch me on what your what your angle would be. Convince me absolutely well. To me, it's it's

about usable habitat. So if I look out my window right here in my office right now, Um, I'm looking at and I worked, I'm working out of my house. So I'm looking at my yard. And I've got a all about a quarter acre yard that I maintained, and it's it's short, and it's a lot of screen. It looks good. But beyond that, I've got eighty acres of

native warm season grass. And if you look at the structural differences, and you look at that the heights and the density and the diversity in those natives as opposed to what I'm maintaining in my yard doesn't take heart, doesn't take long to see that's had eighty acres of of tall, lush native prairie is much more usable at many more times of the year than you know, say, say my yard. So for me, it all boils down to that. It's from a white tail standpoint, I'm looking

for a cover uh in the winter. I'm looking for um uh fawning cover in the spring. I'm looking for forage diversity which these grasses can provide at different times of the year. And I'm looking to create more usable space um all my property. You know, I live in central Missouri. You know we're blessed with some some great some great timber tracks. But you know, the landscapes open

in a lot of cases as well. And so when you put that grass on that landscape, you know, if you don't have um, you know, a forest or a woodlot nearby, and you've got native grass on the landscape, you still have incredible diversity and structure, and you're gonna have white tails and all kinds of other wildlife using those um you know, using that habitat, using those acres, whereas um if it wasn't there, you know, it would

be it would be much less. So so yeah, you know you're improving the habitat quality by adding these natives, but you're also creating usable space, um in huntable space as well. So um, it's a benefit in in many many ways to incorporate natives, uh where and when you can, um and uh it's one of those things to me. Um, I've never met a white tail hunter that that has installed native grasses that have and disappointed by the use and and and how much deer, how much deer are

attracted to those habitat types for sure. So UM, you know, I I think there are a positive in many many ways. So I want to run a I guess a hypothesis by you. It's a little bit of the theory, I guess. So I anywhere I've ever hunted deer, you know, let's let's say like the Great Plain States don't come, so we're gonna stay, Like in an area that's not all grasslands, So in an area that's mostly timber, an egg or

some mixture or interface of those two things. Anywhere I've hunted like that, where I find a patch that does have grassland type habitat, Let's say one field got put into CRP or there is a CRP in this property on this side and there's a regular agg and timber on the other. Every time I go into an area like that that has some kind of grassy component like that, that grassy area is the hub of activity almost always. That is like the hot spot for stuff coming in

and out. And I mean I always gravitate towards those locations. Is that just me? Or is that happening? No, it's it's to me. I that those have been my experiences, and UM, it's you know, for lots of reasons. You know, I have a on on my property. I have actually a what we were referred to as a remnant prairie UM on it. So it was it's full of natives. But I didn't I didn't see anything originally. UM, it

was just there. And so through a little bit of management and prescribed fire and UM, I did do some interceeding later on, but it was it was always great white tail hunting. And UM, you know, they feel they feel protected because they can get in there. It's tall. Um, you know, they can they can get the wind in their favor. So UM, you know, for lots of reasons they can. You know, they just feel protected. Um, it's

an opportunity for them to um. Uh like I said, for him, you know, for the for fawning, it's uh, you know, same reasons. It's just one of those areas that they they'll key in on. Um. But when I'm hunting, you can bet I'm gonna be looking on the map to see, okay, where you know, where is the prairie the natives, whether it's you know, remnant or CRP or whatever it might be, you know where's the grass and where's the way in and out? And I'm keying in on that and uh, because i know at some point

in time they're gonna be there. Um. And I can tell you just on my place, a little bit of TLC and that remnant prairie, getting that's kind of whip back up into shape. Um made a world of difference on the number of deer. Uh in the quality of dear that I started seeing just within a year. Um, and and the uses is only increased. And uh. One of my favorite things to do actually in the spring is when we we burn a third of that old

a year. And uh, you know, there's nothing cooler than seeing a set of sheds glowing right after you right a fire through there, it's pretty it's pretty cool. And uh so yeah, they they're they're definitely a dear magnet. Now, what about stuff outside the deer? I mean you come from PF and QF. I mean obviously grassland type habitat is great for pheasants or other upland birds. But what what other types of wildlife and animal life or bug

life do these habitats support? Yeah? Absolutely, so you know, if you think about you know, the the United States, we had uh millions and millions of acres of native prairie, so uh many many many species adapted to live on these landscapes and then these environments so um, you know, multiples many species of grassland birds UM outside of bob white quail UM that utilize these habitats that you know either are ground nesting or UM or uh you will

nest in shrub shrub habitat adjacent to these grasslands UM. And native pollinators you know, far too many to name the uh the forbes of wildflowers that generally accompany these landscapes UM and are in these restorations, are are necessary hosts and forge sources for for the pollinators that we need Uh, to keep the diversity moving across uh, not just the country, but the world and um and so

you you name it. I mean these there isn't hardly a specie in in you know, the northern grade plains of the central part of the country that isn't adapted um, you know, to survive or needs you know, native grasses and some form or fashion and so. Um they're critically important, um, you know, for for sex and and wildlife species alike. Here's one more fancy term, I guess I want you to break down for me to help us understand. You

hear about ecosystem services. So not only does a grassy landscape like this support a lot of birds and bugs and animals, but it does other good stuff for the land to write. Um, can you talk to me a little bit about what that looks like in the case of grass, because last week we talked about the ecosystems services of trees. Uh what what how to grass is stack up? Oh? Yeah, so it's it's kind of it's nothing short of amazing really when you when you get

into it. So, UM, if you take your typical let's say you're you know, the grass us in my yard out back here. So you know, I'm looking at I'm looking at fescue, I'm looking at um um, a little bit of clover, but by and large those grasses are very shallow rooted. Okay, so you're talking. You can take your scoop shovel, put in the ground, flip clump a fescue over, and you're gonna have the majority of the root mass is gonna be right there, just under the surface.

And you know, it's pretty sod forming, which is if you think about it's a little bit like a carpet. When you know, a three inch rain comes in Missouri, comes through here, what happens is is it hits that fescue sod and most of that water runs off and where does that go. Well, even it will find its way to the nearest stream. That stream will find its way to the next stream, and a lot of that water that typically would infiltrate into the ground UH sheds and runs off that does not happen uh in a

native restorations or on remnant native prairie. Native warm season grasses and forbes are so deeply rooted that most of the water when a three inch rain comes and and it hits the ground goes into the ground and so it's reabsorbed where it's supposed to go. UM. That's one of the primary reasons why you know, it's highly recommended that you know, these natives are planted in in areas where you know, like on CRP, where maybe it's a little bit more erotable, UM, maybe there is some more

water um erosion concerns. These these species can can withstand that and can can protect that soil, can armor that soil and helping sure that that water goes into the ground and doesn't shed off and UM. And likewise, just carbon sequestration, you know, warm season grasses, Native prairie do an ex exceptional job of capturing and storing carbon and so UM. You know, the and I'm sure in the next you know, two years, five years, ten years, we're going to continue to learn more and more about all

the other services that they provide. But uh, you know, when it comes to protecting the soil, increasing water infiltration, storing carbon um. You know, the list goes on these you know, Native prairie just continues to impress and never disappoints in that in that fashion, so it's good for the land, it's good for the air. It's good for the water, it's good for our deer hunting, it's good for any other kind of honey who want to do. Uh, it sounds like we should put grasses in the ground

or help keep them healthy if they're already there. My question then to you is is how can we as landowners and hunters think about you know, grass type habitat being a part of the larger picture. Let's let's just say, maybe we'll try to create the generic hypothetical property that

most people have to work with. They've got, you know, a small piece of g own we'll say, a lesson hundred acres or somewhere in that ballpark, and it has a mixture of some kind of timber type cover and then some kind of openings maybe their farm fields or old farm fields or pasture something like that. So that's a mixture of those two things. Um, how would you recommend we think about adding grass as a part of

that component? Um? You know, right to my mind, I'm thinking, well, maybe I would if I want to get better betting on the cover, that'd be an obvious way and make some kind of grassy area for that. Or maybe I would plant strips of grass to act as screening cover to block off areas and stuff like that. Um, but in your mind, what are what are the some of the ideas that you've either done yourself or you've seen other people, or how should we think about like how

this is a part of the mix. Yeah, that's great, that's a great question. This is really where the river meets the road. And and honestly, when you're working with private landowners, the fun really starts, um. You know. And and I was gonna make a comment earlier. You know, I mentioned c RP a lot of times. Uh, you'll hear that. You know, CRP referred to is a way to refer to native graphses, even if it's not a clinics of things. That's right, and there's nothing wrong with

that at all. But but the reason I wanted to bring that up is, you know, as it relates to you know, a landowner getting assistance to do work like this there no matter what states you live in. Um, there's a number of opportunities for you know, financial assistance, definitely technical assistance to help you get a management plan and get the step by step instructions and the guidance on you know, how best to do this work and install these practices and um, but it all starts with

an idea and and that starts with a conversation. And so in my mind, you know, the scenario you laid out, it kind of makes a difference on if it's an agricultural if if the fields that you have available to your act fields or if they're old pasture. That kind of to me it it it's sort of there's a decision tree there. So if it's if it's agriculture, you know, old food plots or something that you're looking to maybe

put some warm season grass into. Um, my immediate thought is, and what I've had a lot of success within the past is Okay, let's take a look at the field borders. You know, do we want to do we want to um, you know installed native grasses and a percent of those acres or you know, should we maintain some of those acres and and border those fields. Now, keep in mind that a lot of wildlife, you know, white tails included,

really like edge, so their edge species. So the more edge you can create, especially alongside uh, you know block September, they tend to you know, be utilized more. Not to buy just white tails, but bob white quail or you know, bring next pheasants whatever may be, UM, because they feel safer. You know, they can hop out into that food plot or into that agg field at any point along that edge, and then you know, the first sign of danger, they

can hop back in and be be gone. So I look at that, how can I create and increase my edge um in more of an agg land setting. And in many in many cases you know there are little pockets and things like that. We may go ahead and consider, you know, squaring those fields off a bit and filling those pockets in with native grass. UM. But that's how I kind of take a look at that, uh scenario.

If it's old field and we're gonna be converting um. Yeah, let's say an old pasture to two natives to take a similar approach, but I'm likely a little more heavy handed. I always like to err on the side or on the side of more grass is better because the more grass you have, as I mentioned earlier, you're increasing the usable space um, and you're increasing the amount of habitat you have on overall on the property. So I want

to err on the side of of of more is better, uh. There, And and also you kind of get an opportunity to take a look at how you you know, especially in a scenario where you might have old field or or a field next to next September. Okay, how can we create some advantageous um food plot scenarios where we can we can lay this native grass out um in a way that's beneficial for you and and create some opportunities for some some killed plots or things like that, and

so um. You know. Again that's that's the fun part where you kind of get to look at the map and you get your ideas out and and um and work with those landowners too to be ultimately land on something that they really like and and and go and go that direction. But to take home here is um, there's a thousand you know, no matter what the scenario is, there's multiple options that that you can look at and all of them will be beneficial. Yeah, all right, let's

let's uh, let's do some like hypotheticals. Then I'm curious what your thoughts would be on some specifics. Let's say, you know, we've got I don't know our property is this kind of mixture, and I don't have any crops on my property. But it's in an agricultural type area, so there are you know, corn and beans and stuff in the general region. I've got timber, and I've got what used to be farm fields, but the owner stopped, you know, the previous landowners stopped farming a year ago.

So they're starting to go um, you know, you know, weeds and stuff are growing up in them whatnot. And I've got a decision to make. I need to decide, well, do I want to put food on the ground. Do I want to put food plots in with my you know, my openings here I've got I don't know, let's just say forty acres and a third of it or sorry, a quarter of it is open. So we've got, you know,

thirty acres of timber and ten acres of openings. And I'm thinking, all right, everyone plants really sexy green clover food plots, and big giant bucks come walking into them and they stand there and just wait for you to shoot them. That seems like the easy thing to do. Uh, So that temptation might be to plant a big old food plot or bunch of food plots and all those

openings and things. If you had this scenario forty acres timber, ten acres of openings, and you were going to decide how you would mix it up, how you would mixed grasses with food or no food in all grasses or what? Give me you know, in this very specific hypothetical, walk me through how you would try to balance things and mad, Yeah,

you bet so. My first step is, and you kind of alluded to it right out of the gate, is I take a look at what's around me, so you know, what is the limiting factor, you know, within that section that you're in. Let's say, you know, so to me, it sounds like food probably is not a limiting factor, but diverse cover might be. So you know, if that ends up being the case, and for this scenario, will say that it is. Um. Yeah, I'm I'm leaning pretty heavy on you know, putting most of those openings in

diverse native grasses. You know, something with you know, like big blue stem in Indian grass, something that's tall that gives me some structure, um and in high quality cover. But also you know, ten species of wildflowers in the mix. So um, so there's some forage based just not only for white tails, but many other species as well. Um. It's hard to get away from And I agree with you. Those those lush ladno clover food plots are pretty sex and they look good. UM, and I would I would

consider that. I mean, there, there's definitely gonna be um some opportunities most likely for um, you know, to include a micro plot here or there, you know, just something along the border. In fact, most of the time when we are you know, planning native restaurant native grass restorations, you know the best way to maintain those seatings is

with prescribed fire. And so as part of our typically as part of our our management plan, will encourage you know, green fire breaks, which typically consists of clovers and and um and other perennials of that nature that can go around. So we'll incorporate a little bit of that. And that

would be something that I would look at. But you know, if if diverse cover, especially betting cover, is limiting, I'm going I'm putting the majority of my open acres into into native grasses with either relying on the fire breaks for my perennial food source there for white tails, or potentially a micro plot somewhere in a corner. Um, you know, where I can I can slip in and slip out with the wind in my favor, and and and especially

during the rut. These are these are areas that are that are there are some of my favorite areas the hunt. So that's that's how I'm lean and I'm looking at the landscape and you know, in totality, determining what I think is the most limiting factor um and and using that to help kind of set my compass arrow with where I go from there. Yeah, I want to take

things to the extreme. So what if we kind of look at the example you mentioned, which was where where food is not the limiting factor, but diverse covers the limiting limiting factor. What if we went to the far far far side of that spectrum where let's say it's it's northern Ohio, like northeast Ohio, which I'm pretty close to. There's stretches where you go around there where it's just section after section with no timber at all. It's just, you know, after crops are harvest, is a flat, barren

waste land with nothing, you have no cover. What if you inherit a property out there and you think yourself, well, gosh, I have zero trees or very few trees. Uh, it's all, you know, it's a jungle of corn and bean fields in August, but come you know October, and no, there's nothing I need to start from ground zero. What if I was trying to create all the cover I would have with grasses or newly planted tree as if that was an option, what would you do in that case?

Would it be the exact same thing, just plant the same kind of blend and then add some pots in there, or is there a different species or a different mix or something else you would use when you have that limited of cover. Yeah, great question. So it's you know, it does kind of depend on what your objectives are. So if you're UM as far as mixes go, UM, definitely multiple options that you can choose from. If I'm if I'm looking at you know, white tails is my primary,

my primary objective. That's what I like to chase. That's what I'm looking for, and I'm in that part of the state, I'm sticking with. You know what I mentioned before, you know, big blue indian uh, little blue stem as my grass component. Um, you know, ten to fifteen species of forbes, and I'm I'm putting as many acres in on the ground in grass as I can um definitely going to you know, have some sort of a perennial

food source incorporated in there. You know, like I mentioned, I'm a fan of clover um, you know, and whether that's my fire breaks or you know, a food plot kind of snuck in the back corner in the middle of of you know this, uh, this grass seating. Either way, it's gonna be it's gonna be advantageous for you. And uh and you know I've seen scenarios just like this and those those uh, you know, those those properties tend

to tend to start loading up about harvest. You know, they'll start seeing more and more more dear activity and and uh and it peaks doing during rutt generally, and you know, and stays that way all through the winter. You know, this is you know, we didn't really mention it before, but you know, native grasses as far as thermal cover goes, you know, for grassland birds and ground nesting birds as well as white tails, you know, being

able to to withstand the cold, break the wind. Um. You know, they they provide a lot of those resources that creators need. And um, when you get up in those landscapes like that where there isn't much in that, you know, much cover at all, and winners can be harsh. You know, this is this is an important habitat for a lot of species, especially white tails, but um, many many other species. So I'm going I'm going heavy and I'm going with tall and uh yeah, like I said,

I'm putting as many acres in as I can. What are your thoughts on monoculture plantings. There's some people that advocate for like a straight planting of switch grass or something like that. Um, and I know there's reasons for that on one hand, but what's your take on that? Is that problematic in anyway? Is that's why are you

recommending a blend versus that? Yeah? Great, great question. You know there's there's definitely scenarios and situations out there where, um, you know, for one reason or another, mono monocultural monoculture planning would would make some sense. But by and large, you can you know, you want diversity, you want um as many species as you can in your mix, and and there's many reasons for that. You know, there's for one, on one hand, um, you know the the so we

mentioned ecological goods and services earlier. You know those are multiplied by the number of species that you have in your mix. UM. Some species can can tolerate conditions a

little bit better than others. And so you know, if you have a you know, a monocultural stand of of grass that's not very drought tolerant, let's say, and and neo needs it to be a bit wet, and you have a drought year, UM, and you don't have other species in that mix that can can taller rate that you could have a you know, your planning could be in in rough shape for a couple of years UM. And so you're just kind of getting some added insurance

there as well. UM. But also from a wildlife standpoint, as I mentioned before, you know, wildlife key in on diversity. They need uh, multiple species doing what they do at different times of the year, UM, providing the necessary habitat and forage basis that they need throughout the year. And so the more species you have in your mix, UM, the more that you can offer you know, not only the wildlife, but you know the services on the landscape as well. So so I'm always a fan of diversity. UM.

You know, the more diverse, the better UM. And you can always go back in later that's something to you know, I mentioned the typical you know, native grass mix, if there is such a thing, is generally you know, three species of grass, ten species of forbes uh uh, occasionally a lagoon in there. Um. But you can always come back in later and add additional species down the road too. So you know, starting with a three tin mix is

a good start. Um. And as you get your seating kind of in the shape and you like what you're saying, you want to come back in and add additional forbes or wildflowers, you can so. But I'm I'm a proponent of of diversity where I can get it, Okay. So I go to Walmart or Tractor Supply or bass Pro shops and there's row after row of food plot seed bags of the you know, the clover plot that's gonna send big bucks my way in the Brassica big buck slammer mix that will give me big bucks in December.

And then there's the you know, the the forage sore beans from heaven. Like. There's a thousand different food plot options that are marketed to me, and they're easy to find, and they tell me exactly what they're gonna do and how they're gonna do it. I don't owe many tractor supplies or or walmarts. I can walk into where I'm going to find a three and ten blend of native grasses that are just right for what I'm trying to do. How does someone go about finding this seed or the

right blend. You know, someone doesn't really know what they're doing yet and wants a little bit of a handholder or want some direction. Where can people get this stuff if they're not already tapped into the community. Yeah, great questions.

So you know, it all starts with who, getting you know, making contact with you know, either your your state Fish and Wildlife Agency, private lands biologists, match or Resources Conservation Service um UH office or you know Pheasants Forever Quill Forever farm Bill Wildlife Biologists if you have one in your area, and getting that site visits set up and walking through um your goals and your objectives on the property, because you know every site is different and UM like

we've just been discussed and you know there's a lot of opportunity these for UH for strategy here and so it's always good to get you know, that sound technical advice on you know what to do and how to do it and a sorry, Chris, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna hit time out in that and ask you to expand on this part a little bit before going further, because I think there's probably people listening that don't know how to find that person, or they assume that this

person is going to cost them money to pay for them as a consultant or something. Can you give me some specifics like how how do I literally who do I call or what office do I get in touch with to get a person to come out and walk my property with me to do this? Yeah? Great, I appreciate you stopping. I well, first and foremost, if if you go to U Doesn't Forever and Quill Forever's website Www dot Doesn't forever dot org. At the bottom of the page, there's a link that says find a biologist

and you can UM. You can click that link and go through our directory and see if there is a biologist near you, in which case you can you can make a request for service. Otherwise, you can reach out

to your state Fish and Wildlife agency contacts UM. You know whether it's in my state Missouri Department of Conservation, UM, Texas parks and wildlife and you know whoever, whatever the state is you you're in, reach out to the state Fish and Wildlife Agency UM and enquire about private lands assistance. And every state has a private lands program UM that can reach out and provides you with the technical assistance you need, set up a site, visit. It's all free

of charge. UM you know, it's it's it's service provided UM to you. And so UM you know, there's a number of different organizations that can help. And if UM and if you UM you know you need uh need technical assistance, or you have questions about how to better manage your property for you know, whatever your interests, then white tails, while wild turkey, quail, pheasants. We can help you get to where you want to go and see

achieve your objectives. So UM you know, and that's that is a tough That is a tough sometimes a question to answer from Landoer's point of view is how do I get started? You know? And and in some areas it's not as highly you know, understood or publicized as far as you know where to go to get this help UM as it as it may be in other places. So UM, I can tell you that you know our staff.

We have staff and in um just just under forty states. UM, if you can get in contact with someone from Pheasants forever, Quail forever, UM. If we can't, if we don't have someone close by, we can definitely get you in contact with with folks who can help you. UM. So that might be just as good a place to start as any awesome. Okay, So then from there start to interrupting,

You're you're starting to building where where we go from there? Then? Yeah, so so you've got your you've got your you've got your you've major contact, and you've got your private lands biologists at your door. What you're gonna do next is you're just gonna take a walk around. You're gonna look at the property, if you're gonna see what opportunities are there. They're gonna be talking with you about, you know, what

your goals and your objectives are. You know, I would love to see more dear or you know I heard Quail five years ago. I don't hear him as much as I used to. I sure would love to hear uh more Bob White singing or um. You know, hey, I enjoy seeing monarch butterflies when they passed through. What can I do to um, you know, to to see more monarchs and whatever that might be. We can provide

you with the technical assistance that you need. Along with that comes a conversation about native grasslands and grasses that you want to um that you might want to install, and with that generally comes in management plan. And along with that management plan comes your you know, your wrecking

ended seed mix. So that that technic, that technical service provider is gonna take a look at your where you're physically located at, what state, Where in that state are you located, what species were historically prevalent in the in that particular area, and then take a look at your goals and objectives and they're going to develop your seed mix.

With that, you generally get a list of vendors and there's native seed vendors all over the country depending upon where you're at, and generally you're provided with a list and you can go down that list and make your to make your selection based on um you know, who you want to who you want to work with, and so um you know, there there is uh you know, like I said, a number of great opportunities out there for folks to get their hands on on the seed

that they need and and those vendors also provide a uh an exceptional service and and can answer technical questions as well, and and you know, help help folks it to where they want to go. Also awesome. Uh Here's here's another kind of I guess this is kind of related to this type of question, like understanding what the

right grasses are for your area for your situation. UM, I'm curious about how you would handle analyzing a current like a current old field, like something that you haven't planted, you haven't done anything with, but you arrive on the scene way. Maybe it's because you're brand new to the property, or maybe it's because, well, there's a here's here's a

great perfect example. I think I saw you post a video I don't know last year or something where you were driving around your property the spring after doing a burn and you said, you're heading down to this area that you burned and you were gonna go put a

food plot down there. And you get down to this area, you arrived on the scene where you thought you were going to carve out this grass and put in a food plot, and then you said, oh, whoa change the plans I see milkweed, and I say, I see this stuff, and I see this stuff, and I see this stuff. There's no way I'm going to get rid of this. I've got to keep this. How how do you go

about making that decision? What did you see there that made you realize, oh, this is worth keeping, We're not going to get rid of this, or you know, more generically, if someone's looking at an old field or a new field, there's something that they don't know about, how they how can they go about judging how high quality of habitat that is or how important that is, and if they need to change it or just nurture it. Yeah, great questions.

So you know, one thing to keep in mind is and in that that video that you saw, so that was that was an old field originally when I bought that property, that had some had some remnant native prairie in it. So when I bought it, one of the first things I did was kind of take a look around, and you know, it was old pasture at one time, and so there was you know, there was some cool seeds grasses in there and sayings that you know, it

was providing some habitat. But I would see you know, a clump of big blue stem over here, and you know, maybe a wild flower over there, and you know, the seed bank. No matter where you live, there are natives

in the seed bank. Those seeds are there, and it's kind of a it all really depends on how degraded that system might be, as to, Okay, can I bring this back with a little bit of fire in her beside, or do I need to go down the road of putting a native you know, going in and prepping it and just doing a restoration and do do a seating. And so so I'm looking for I'm looking for keys.

And in that particular case, you know, milkweed is a is uh very very important to monarch butterflies and and it's also you know, something that you believe it or not, sort of limited on the landscape these days. And so um so yeah, I was, I was going down there. I was gonna put in a perennial plot along this uh along the stream. And we had just done some burning earlier in the year and came back and sure enough there there was a whole bunch of milk weed there.

And so I always air on the side of diversity, like I said earlier, so that's that was not something I planted in that particular spot there, but it was there, and it my property is going to be better the more diverse it is. So for me to have rhado tilt that and prepped it and went in with with clover in that particular spot, um, I wasn't going to maximize everything that my you know, my property could be so um, so I pivoted and moved and went to a went to a different spot and all worked out,

um for the better. But you know, looking at those old field situations, you can kind of all based on if you're seeing remnant natives present versus none at all. That kind of tells you, okay, whether you've got something to work with here, or whether you're looking at a complete burned down and and then receding. And in this particular case, I did both. I I had a kind of had the field split in half. I had a little bit more remnant on one half, a lot less

on the other. I did a restoration on one half and I did some some burning and some herbside application at the right time and brought the other half back and so um, you know, it's it isn't an exact science. But again it's it's it's working the land, you know, and it's it's working with what you have and making making management decisions that you think ultimately you're gonna healthy get to where you want to go, and um, and it's it's a it's a really fun process along the way.

And you know, the thing I would say too, is, you know habitat management that there was Bob Ross said, you know, there's no mistakes, only happy accidents. It's very much like that. You know, it's you know, you you are afforded the opportunity to learn as you go, and um, you know, there's nothing generally that's too bad that you can't go back and and learn from and and and and incorrect later. So it's really a it's it's low risk,

high reward, you know kind of activity stuff. Yeah, let's say we've we've either discovered an opening that we want to improve and manage or well, I guess this is probably to two separate tracks. I suppose there's probably one track, which is how do I plant something that is not currently in grasses? It's it's either an old crop field or an old pasture or something or timber. And now it's open um. So I guess part one is I'd love to talk to you about how do we go

about planting new grass as a new blend. And then the second avenue will be then what if we have something old, some remnant and we want to manage it and improve it? Um, can you walk me through the step by step you know, how do we prep and and actually do this stuff? Because it's I mean, is it is it just like planning a food plot or would you say it's different? It's different? It is? And um, you know the thing I would say too is is uh, the techniques are the same, but the way that you

do it is takes a little bit more finesse. So let's take the scenario that you have a crop field and you're going to be decided that you're going to put native grasses or field borders into into this crop field. In my opinion, that's the best case scenario. If you're doing a uh you know you're actually going to do a seating. The reason for that is, like anything else, this is where it's similar to putting a food plot in It all starts with your your site prep. If you if you do not go uh in all in

on your side prep, you could have some chat. You almost will always have some challenges with your seating. So side prep is incredibly important. And you know, typically if I had a landowner that let's say they had an old fescuwed pasture, it wasn't being farmed at the moment, but they wanted to go do a native restoration on those acres, I would encourage them to to plant let's say, soy beans for two years something. Round up, ready, you know,

get beans there, get that that cool season competition under control. Um, that's really really important. So um going into a you bet, go ahead real quick. You've mentioned the cool season competition and and something that I've heard over the years and have had to pick up on my own. But I think a lot of people that aren't really savoy and this stuff won't really understand the difference between like cool season grasses and warm season grasses or something like that.

Can you can you just explain that a little bit? You bet? Yeah, I appreciate you stopping me there. I should have done that early. I So cool season and warm season grasses. So there um native varieties and non native varieties of both that exist on the landscape today. Warm season grasses grow when the soul temperatures are warmer, reach a certain degree level of kind of various depending upon the species, but they're actively growing during the warm

part of the year. Cool season grasses are growing during the spring and the falls typically dormant during this summer. So for example, right now, we're in April, you know, looking out my window here, looking at my yard, you'll get fescue and and some brom out there. It's lush and it's green. It's a growing right now. So that's that's a cool season, cool season grass as opposed to the warm season, which is um, you know, starting to green up here around here when we're especially if they've

if they've burned. But that's the difference, okay, And is it typically those cool season grasses that are trouble for some of our more preferred plantings because they start going early. I'll compete whatever you planted and then you get this really patchy or poor growth of what you actually want. Is that? Yeah, that's right. So the you know, especially on a new seating, the first three years are the

most critical for a native warm season grass seating. So when you've got cool season competition, um, you know, those they're competing for the same resources, and so especially something like askue that sod forming as of native seedlings are coming up through the ground um that bescue, you can really overtake them and shade them out and out compete them. So you want to really make sure that you're you're

staying on top of that and you're diligent. But if you do a very good job of your you know, to site prep, you're pretty well got the battle one right away. So that's kind of where I come back to. If you had, in the best case scenario, you're going into a uh an area that's you know, had multiple applications of Glypha state or round up applied, whether that

is just your chemical burned down. You know, you've come you've mowed your fescue off, you've sprayed it twice the previous fall, burn that residue off, come back with one more application in the spring. Or you're going into an area that has been routinely cropped every year. You've got a great seedbed prepped, there's no weed competition, You're you've got plenty of bare soil. Now you're ready to put

your seed down. There's two ways to do that UM, you can either broadcast seed your natives with a with a carrier of some type UM, you know, whether that's um vermiculite or something that you can put into the your broadcast seater that can that can agitate and also carry that seed. The native seed is incredibly light, very very fluffy. UM. It's adapted to be spread by wind, so you know, it's it's can be tough to get

out the back of a seater. But UM, a seed you know, a spreader like a vicon that has a a dogtail on the back that that can really agitate. That's that's a great tool to use. UM. You want to see and it's actually Broadcast seating is my preferred method of seeding natives. I like to go in as long as the site prep has been done very well. I got plenty of bare ground. UM. I like to go in during the winter months, you know, January February, right before snow in my areas is ideal. Go in

and broadcast seed. UM let that snow get on top of it, and then the free stall on the spring that that motion just works at seed in into the ground. Just just just perfect. And I really like broadcast seeding but the other way you can do it is with the warm season grass drill. So it looks a lot like a grain drill um, only it has agitators inside

the hopper that can help seed the native seed. And what you're really trying to do, and this is again a situation where the technique is similar to plan a food plot, but it is different. You only need that native seed to be in I mean about half as deep as your thumbnail is long. It just needs a little bit of coverage. It doesn't need a lot. If you, uh, you plant that seed too deep, it's not gonna it's not gonna grow. So if you use the drill, you

just wanted to have those cultures scratching the surface. That's just deep enough. But you know, you you get good seed to soil contact that way. It's another great method for um for planning your grasses. So so you've got the seed on the ground, you've either broadcast seeded it, or you have drilled it. Now comes the fun part, and that's when you get to kind of just sit back and and watch. So year one, don't expect a lot those natives are putting their growing, but they're growing underground,

so that first year, they're putting their roots down. Remember I mentioned compass plant for example, is a very very tall native native plant, but it can have a root, a tap root um as deep as as twenty So it's it's it's putting, it's it's putting its roots down. So don't don't be expecting, you know, lush, big crp looking fields the first year, it's coming, trust me, it's coming. But that first year they're putting their roots down. What

you're really looking at that first year is competition. So this is where anyone who's gonna do this work, whether there whether they think they will, you know this is gonna happen to them or not, they'll kind of become um, very proficient in plan identification because they're gonna be out there looking and they're gonna be they're gonna learn how to identify natives versus unwanted species. And so you're looking out there, you're just kind of seeing what you have.

It's gonna be weedy, that's okay. Those there's gonna be annuals that come up in it. That's gonna be just fine. It's uh, it's actually providing some habitat for some annual habitat for wildlife. Um, this is where you need to have a mower handy, So it's okay, and we highly recommend at least twice a year in most areas to come in and clip that seating down. What you're doing is you're just keep in the playing field level at that point, so there will be a little bit of competition.

No matter how good your site prep is, you'll have you know, you'll have some so through mo and a couple of times a year, you're just kind of keeping everything controlled while those natives are putting the roots down. Second year, second growing season, you're gonna start seeing wildflowers. At this point, you're gonna start seeing bunches of big blue in Indian grass and whatever you know, bunch grasses

you have in your mix. You're gonna start seeing these start to really show themselves and you might be ready to rock and roll at this point. It just kind of depends on weather conditions and a number of things. I've seen second year plannings take off and look incredible, and you're you're up and running most of the time.

You're looking to the it. You know, to mow at least once during year two and so that's kind of a judgment call, and you can work with your private lands biologists that you've worked with on the on the project to kind of determine when to make that call. But generally, as a rule of thumb, I'm looking to mow once that second year. By year three, you should have an established, fully established grassland restoration project on your hands, and you're you're up and off to the races at

that point. And by then, once it's established and ready to go, prescribed fire is going to be your your friend. You know, this work is it's fun, you know it is Uh, it does require some patients, um, but there's a lot of there's a lot of benefit that comes from you know, getting some some expertise around learning how to use prescribed fire and the best management tool you're

ever gonna have to manage your grasses. And so by your three you gotta be looking at okay about time for burn um And when you burns kind of depends on what your objectives are. So you know, you can burn your natives anytime during the dormant season, and if you burn them you know early, let's say January February, that tends to favor wildflowers, more diversity, you burn them a little bit later. It tends to favorite grasses a

little bit more cover. All are things that you can work with your you know, your local point of contact on to make the determination that's best for you. But but that's that's sort of the the timeline really for for putting this work on the ground and getting a project from start to finish. Okay, So then what about scenario two where I've got an old field or something that I think that I've got something to work with, but I don't exactly know what, and I want to

try to turn this thing into something worthwhile? What then you bet? You bet? So these are these are a lot of fun actually, and they're very they're very common. So scenario to you go into an old field, You're walking around with your private lands biologists and you're identifying you know, they make the decision, hey, we've got we might have something to work with here. You know, I'm

seeing some rimnant. You've got a lot of unwanted cool seasons in here, but this is this is probably salvageable. Your two primary go to practices are going to be her poside and fire, So you're gonna look at that situation, and based on the recommendations of your of your point of contact there, you're gonna have likely an opportunity or a recommendation rather to apply some form of herbose side

in the fall. Now this can be um, this can change depending upon you know, what they see out there, but generally you're gonna be putting a grass selective herbicide down in the fall. So something that's gonna be targeting those cool seasons that's in there, um and some of those unwanted species that are in there. Um, your natives are gonna be dormant, especially if you wait, um until after the first hard frost, your natives will almost always

be dormant any time after that. If you're working with an unwanted cool season like fescue, you can spray that almost any time if the the ambient air temperature is somewhere in that fifties degree mark. I've had some great results spray in fescue out of remnant native stands in the middle of December in central Missouri when we've had you know, a couple of day warm shot there where we're in the fifties and so um, So you're gonna

go in in October into October. If you're in the central part of the US and you're gonna apply you know, either a grass selective herbicide or some something. This is just a light application of round up and starts setting that unwanted cool season back. You're gonna watch that over the winter, see how it progresses. Generally, in most cases, come you're gonna come back the next spring with a

prescribed fire and you're gonna run fires through there. That's going to continue to work on those unwanted cool season, set them back a little bit more, while at the same time that fire generates a response from the natives. So between the the application of the herbicide and the incorporation of the fire, you're really knocking back the cool

season and you're giving those natives a kick start. And again it's about succession and competition, so you can get that cool season set back just enough to where those natives are or or kick started enough to where they're up over the top. Um generally you're off, you're off to the races, and and you might have to repeat that process the following fall, but generally in a couple of years, especially if you have a really good seed bank that has uh, you know, diverse native seeds in there,

you'll you'll be in good shape. And the best part about that particular situation where you're going into a remnant scenario is it's incredibly cost effective. You know, a little bit of herbicide, you know, eighty jug of of glass to sade or or select or something like that, and uh, a little bit of deesel on gasoline in a drip torch and you can you can have, um, you know, some incredibly beneficial, high quality ABTA on your hands and in just a couple of years. M Now what about

long term management? And in both scenarios, Let's say you've got your great stand of native grasses like you want them. Um, is it then just applying fire at some interval for perpetuity? Or is mowing ever a tool you would use at that point? Ever? Again, Um, any selective spraying of shrubs or something popping up anything else like that. Yeah, it's

it's actually it's all three. So you know you kind of want to you know, I guess first and foremost, you know, once you have your once you have your grass established, you're really looking at you're not just your grasslands at that point, But how does that all fit within your property? And so you're really wanting to manage you know, on sort of a a one third rotation. So you want to see some sort of active management on your one third of your property a year. And UM,

you know, if it's all grassland, that's great. Um, you're gonna be burning or disking or mowing a third a year if it's kind of a in my case, you know, in my property, I've got mixed woods and and grassland habitats, and so I'm using a lot of prescribed fire um part and both my woodlands and my grasslands about a thirty years. So but for the purposes of you know, grassland management, you're really looking at disking, mowing, prescribed fire, or herb desides. You have four uh, primary tools at

your disposal. All are great. Um, they all have their benefits and uh and they're definitely scenarios where some favorite or more favorable than the other. But I always lean heavily on fire. Um. You know, it's like I said, it's inexpensive, it's a it's a very impactful management tool for a number of reasons. UM. And it's it's something that's um, you know that when done correctly is is uh, you can really give your your best benefits, your best

bang for your buck there um. But there are definitely are instances where you know, mowing is gonna it's gonna make some sense disking, especially if you have old, older plantings that maybe are very grass dominated and you're wanting to improve some diversity. You get some diversity back back into that stand. You know, disking can be a very effective tool in that uh in that case, same with prescribed with herbicide application to So it just kind of

all depends. But those are going to be your four primary management tools that you're gonna want to have it at the ready is uh. You know, good mower, a you know sprayer, a drip torch and um and a desk and you're gonna be set all right. So the one roadblock, I don't know if this is a roadblock, but this is like a potential red flag for me as I'm working through this for myself, was like, man, this sounds like uh a lot of kind of energy and time and maybe money getting put into this. I've

got to figure out a way to rent ceeder. I've got to figure out a way to buy this herbicide, I've gotta you know, get this thing and that thing. Um, if there's someone worrying about that kind of thing. I imagine that the government programs out there to help fund some of this stuff might be helpful, like the CRP

program or others. Can you can you dive further than than that, because we talked a little bit about how there's there's free consultation services sometimes, but there's also programs where you know, the government is incentivizing private landowners to do work like this and even sometimes compensating you for it. Can you can you give us the cliff notes on what kind of programs we should look for specifically and

how to do that. Absolutely absolutely, and uh, you know, I just started by saying that the you know, it's it's really been. UM it's it's been, uh pretty incredible to see the amount of horsepower and emphasis being placed on grassland habitat restoration across the country, UM and in the interest that's out there in voluntary conservation practices to put grasslands on the on the landscape and and uh to help landowners make that happen and achieve their objectives.

There's been significant resources put into UM both state and federal programs to help offset UM, you know, the costs of of a number of this war or a lot of this work. So you know, to start right out with with the program that most folks are familiar with, the Conservation Reserve Programs c RP. You know that is continues to be a very very impactful and um in popular program for for landowners to participate in. You know,

it's completely voluntary. UM. It provides the landowner with an annual rental payment UM for for those acres that go into the program. UM. There's a sational funding available UM in most cases to offset you know, the restoration costs, so like the drill rental and the seed UH costs and things along those lines. And UM. You know that program is a US Department of AGG administered program both Natural Resources and Natural Resources Conservation Service and the Farm

Service Agency UM. Helping delivering that program are Pheasants Forever and Quill Forever, farm Bill wildiffiologists do as well and m and you know, that's a very uh user friendly opportunity for folks to get grassland work on the ground. The CRP program, however, it does require or some eligibility requirements so for example, you would have had to have had UM you know, cropping history on the acres that are enrolled in the program. There has to be what

they refer to as UM UM UH. Well, there's a score that's taken biological index that's UM kind of helps determine eligibility as well. So that's that's one option. The second option, again a U s D A opportunity is the Environmental Quality and Sentenced Program UM EQUIPPED for short UH. This program is administered by the Natural Resources Conservation Service.

They have specific practices in in equipped for grassland restoration for wildlife UM while you know, and they can provide financial assistance to landowners interested and in doing this work. So it's it's cost share. There's not an annual rental payment per se with this, but they're definitely available funds available to help offset the cost of the restoration, putting the grass on the ground, getting getting the drill rented,

buying the herbicide. It's all available for folks. UM. You know, it's a there is an application process as well, and there is a ranking and scoring. But you know, you're not to Resources Conservation Service UH staff or peasants forever quil Forever, Farm Build Wildlife biologists can help you through that, UM, and help you navigate those programs as well. So UM,

you know those are two of of of many. But you know, if folks are interested in doing this work, UM, you know, I would highly encourage encourage them to reach out and and just ask the question. You know, if they want to reach out to us as Pheasants Forever, quil Forever, We're happy to help them get started, point them in the right direction. If we can't take them

all the way. UM. You know, these these programs can be a little bit confusing, UM, and we definitely don't want to see that be a barrier to anyone that's interested in putting grassland habitats on the ground. So we'll help you in any way that we can and and and help find the program that best fits your your goals and objectives. So I gotta say I have not hunted pheasants in twenty years. Chris, Well, that's ridiculous. We gotta.

I know that is bad, um, But despite that, I became a Pheasants Forever re member a few years ago and have stuck with it because of the work, like what you're describing their having biologists that are helping out all these things in the the way you guys are positively impacting grassland habitat across the country. Which despite not being a pheasant hunter, I love the grasslands and the great plains and have had some incredible deer hunting experiences

in those types of habitats. So I'm a big fan of the work you guys are doing. Um So I would tell everyone that they should strongly considering supporting the work you guys are doing. A Pheasants Forever. You guys have a great magazine to which your members get, which I which even not, you know, even though the pheasant hunting part isn't what's drawing me in, I'm really interesting like the habitat stuff you guys talk about in there, so so good stuff across the board. That's that's my pitch.

What would your pitch be? Two folks listening for why maybe they should check out uh PF and Quail Forever and any of the other work you guys have got going on. Yeah, well, I appreciate that, you know, I guess you know, I came to work here because of the habitat, you know, because of the mission. You know, this organization is is as grassroots as as they as

they get. Um, we are we do our best to to do all we can to make a difference on the landscape for for quail, for pheasants, for pollinators, for all kinds of wildlife species. And you know, we're we're here to to make that landscape level change and you know we'll continue to continue to do that and and we want to, uh, we want to continue to be in a position to make those impacts for a really

long time. And so I encourage anyone that's uh that's interested in learning more about peasants from every forever to to check us out on our website, uh www dot Pheasants Forever dot org or w e W Don't Fail Forever dot org. Uh, we're active on and all social media platforms. Check us out, and you know, give us a look. And uh and uh, you know, we hope, we hope be coming be part of our family here.

And I think it's a good idea, I really do. Chris, is there if if there was someone who had been stuck on this hypothetical Elevator mentioned it at the beginning when you pitched us on Grassland Habitat. What if we had been stuck on an elevator this entire time. The elevator broken down. We've been stuck here. You've covered all this ground. You've talked about why grasses are great. You've talked about how they benefit deer and other critters and

the land. We've talked through where to plant it, when to plant it, how to plant it. The elevator door finally is opening. Now we're about to walk off. If you had any final parting thought you could share with this person who is now about to head to their car and get off of this blasted elevator, Is there anything else you'd say to them? Well, for one thing, I'd have their name and their number, and I'd be following back up with them and uh and and making

sure that that they didn't forget that we talked. But I would tell them this is a game changer. This is uh, this, this really is these You know, these habitats are were meant to be there. Um and you know we we use this cliche all the time. You know, build it and they will come. That's a fact with this. And UM, you know you're never gonna go wrong, um making the investment and UM and you know putting grasslands

on on the landscape, putting grasslands on your farm. Um, you know they're they're gonna change how They're gonna change how you hunt, They're gonna change how you think about your property. They're gonna change about change with you know, how you think about the landscape. So don't overlook it. It is a game changer. Awesome, Chris. Well, you've got my name and number, so feel free to reach back up to me and check and see how I'm doing

on this. Some of these things, I've got some I've got some old nasty like fescue kind of habitat on a proper to have permission on that. For for years now, I've known I've I've got to try to do something about it to convert it to something more useful, and uh, this might be the kick in the tail to finally do it. So so thank you for that, Chris, and thanks for all for all of this has been super helpful. Yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity and and again happy to

answer any questions that come come our way. I could talk about this stuff all day and I'll be uh, I'll be following up with you to see if you've you've gotten active there and then uh, get started on your project. Don't worry about that, all right. It sounds good, Chris, thank you, You're welcome, all right, and that is it for us today. Appreciate you tuning in. I'll let you go with just a final couple updates. Number one, we've

got a sale from first Light. If you're listening to this just when it came out, there's a sale that started on April two thousand twenty two from our pals over at First Light up to off a whole lot of their stuff, So check it out at first light dot com. Again. That's you know, if you're listening to this just a few days after April. Sorry, if you're

listening to this, it's probably still not going. But I do hope you're still listening because that would be good if this podcast is still running and helping people at that point. So fingers crossed. Other news, make sure you're signed up to the Wired Hunt weekly newsletter. That's where me and Tony Peterson and all the other folks on our white Tail team are sharing our updates. Are articles, are how to videos, different things to help you on

your deer hunting journey as well. So check those things out. I appreciate you, I hope you enjoyed this conversation, and until next time, stay wired.