Ep. 525: The Good, Bad, and Ugly of Average Joe Whitetail Habitat Work

the white tail habitat conversations you here. This is not gonna be a conversation with experts. This is not gonna be a conversation with consultant or paid I don't know, spokespeople for food, plat, seeds or anything. This is gonna be white tailed habitat from a couple of average joe get their hands in the dirt, sometimes know what they're talking about, sometimes don't. Kind of guys myself and Tony Peterson. Tony,

welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, buddy. Uh, you know, I gotta point out though I made this whole long spiel about how we're just average joe's but then as I was saying this, I recalled the last time we were together, you called yourself the step Curry, the Steph Curry of the deer ownning world. Yeah, so from humble beginnings here, folks that that was a tongue in cheek statement. Uh, And I fully admitted that I didn't realize that Steph Curry was considered the best basketball

player out there today. You can safely say that as far as the habitat and movements and stuff, I definitely don't consider myself the Steph Curry of that category. But you're on the team, You're you're on the bench somewhere. You're on You're on the team somewhere. I'm a screw up. I'm on the bench. But yeah, yeah, man, how how how are you? I'm good, man, I'm I'm scouting Turkey is like mad and finding a few antlers, and I'm getting ready to go cut down some trees this weekend.

And I'm I'm so happy to look out my window and Nazi snow. It's been a long while, hasn't oh man? Yeah? Um, since we chatted last, you also went to Florida. Uh, totally unrelated to any of this, But how was the fishing. The fishing was really good despite the weather and we did not have the most ideal beach weather, but man, we caught a lot of different fish, a lot of different species, and just I still have it was such a good trip. I still have fish spines stuck in

my fingers right now. I can't play guitar because I'm in I'm on the I R right now. But it was. It was a good trip. Man. That's sweet. Uh, your daughters catch a bunch, Oh my god, they caught so many. We we really kind of got some stuff dialed in on this trip because I'm such a newbie with that saltwater stuff. And we we figured out, you know, how

to catch some trout really well. And we found you know, some ladyfish and some jacks and we actually got into this catfish bite at our house that I've caught them before, but never, you know, I've never really focused on them. But I kind of figured those fish out and we had a night bite that was so fun, Like I finally figured out and you know, they fight pretty well. And the girls, you know, the girls caught a lot of fish. It was it was a blast. Man. Did you get to eat some of those Um, we did

not because I can't eat fish. I'm allergic to fish, and we didn't catch anything that I really felt like cleaning on the vacation so somebody else could eat them. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, that's a bummer. I did. I forgot that. That does suck. Yeah. I can't prove this, but I think I hold the world record for most fish clean and not eaten in my life because I've cleaned a pile of fish and I don't get to eat them. Yeah, it's definitely not worth it if you

don't get to enjoy them. There's some days where I do enjoy them, and I'm still like, dangn. I don't know if that was worth it, but it was not not ever a good idea to do it and then not be able to eat those suckers. Man, that's a bummer. It's a bummer. I I can. I should say this too. I can eat trout and salmon. So they think it's a mercury allergy. And for some reason, you know, because of the water that salmon and trout live in, they don't they don't get the build ups of mercury and

their fat deposits. I guess, and I had to travel nurse tell me that once and so I do actually really enjoy eating salmon and trout, but everything else will kill me. Dude, If that's not incentive to be against pollution of our waters, I don't know what is. Um. I'm I'm all for it, man. I do you know people people they don't seem to understand this allergy. It's a weird one, but every I haven't done this since

I quit drinking. When I when I used to be a much bigger fan of like wild turkey everyone, like once every ten years, I would just decide, you know, I'm gonna try it. Just see and if I take a bite of fish, it feels like I swallowed poison. I can feel it spread through my entire body. Wow, So it's not good that, Uh, that's a good thing for me. Keeping the back of my mind for the next time of our outings, We're definitely not gonna have

a fish friend. I thought he meant a different way if I started to get more popular than you, that you're gonna slip some fish into my sandwich or something. I've got more ideas. Uh, well, what what I really want to talk to you about other than poisoning you with delicious wallee filet Uh is that other stuff that we're working on this spring? You're gonna be cutting some brush. I'm heading out next week, I think to do some frost seeding of clover up in northern Michigan. Uh So,

getting our hands dirty with some habitat work. And you are not someone who I think anyone typically thinks about when they think about habitat work, improving properties, working ground. Because you, Tony have made such a name for yourself on the you know, public land side of things. D I y, traveling trips, all that kind of stuff. But you're like a closet private land dude. No one realizes it, but but you do this stuff kind of secretly in

the background. Are you willing to come clean today about what you have done on private land with habitat Yeah? This this can be my coming out party. Sure, okay, So tell me give me the story, like when did you first get into this kind of stuff and and what does that look like? Because you you not only

have you worked ground, but you even own land. Yep. Yeah, And I actually I got a couple of Foundations episodes coming out here pretty soon about kind of the land buying process and what it took for me, uh, you know, all really shortened us up here. But you know, I grew up it was never even like a thought to own land like it was. It was never gonna happen. Like I grew up with a poor mindset, and so it never it never occurred to me that it might be possible that I might be able to buy some

grounds someday. And I just randomly, I've got a buddy, really good friend of mine who he bought some He bought eighty acres in northern Wisconsin, like probably two thousand and six or something. It was a while ago, and it just it blew my mind when he called me up and he's like, yeah, we've you know, we made an offer. And back then the price I think he paid was like seven or fifty bucks an acre or something.

You know, I mean, it would it would be different today, But even then, I was like, I can't believe I know anyone my age who bought land. And so I started looking around there because I was up in him work on his land, and I ended up finding a property over there that was twenty eight acres and just really weird shape and not all that appealing by the road, you know, kind of half high, half low, and it

was offered pretty cheap. And then it dropped and I was like, man, you know, it was like finally a piece of property that I had walked that was kind of in my wheelhouse. And it was a horrible idea. My wife was super pregnant with our daughters at that time. But I drove over there and looked at it and just it was like, you know, not ideal, dreamy, dear ground, believe me, but it was it was within the realm

of possibility. So I made an offer on it, and I got it, and I was terrified, and it was I paid for it, so I'm not talking like, you know, three dollars or something. And even then at that time, I was terrified to take on that debt. And but as soon as I did it, I was like, well, now I know, like not I gotta pay the bank back, now,

I gotta I just gotta do it, you know. And as soon as I got my hands on it, I was just like, well, I could put a little kill plot here, I could cut this trail here, and it just opened up a world for me and really changed how I look at you know, the possibility owning land and just what I could do with my deer hunting. So before we get any further than that, I guess here's here's like a high level overview of where I

want to explore. Um, what I'm hoping by the end of this we're gonna get to is a little bit of insight into what you and I have both experienced with these types of projects, as far as you know, what we actually did. I think we should give an overview of of like what our experience set is, because I think lots of times we never hear that from people. We just expect them to tell us a whole bunch of stuff and we never really end up finding out

what they've actually done themselves. Let's like break down what we have worked on the past. But then I want to kind of get into, Okay, what was what was the good side of the What did we do that actually worked, what was fun about it, what was satisfying about it? Did we enjoy it, didn't make a difference, did we see positive impact? YadA, YadA, YadA, And then

the flip side. I kind of want to talk through what was a ship hole, what didn't work, what was stressful, what was upsetting, what was a waste of our time? What made you never wanted to do it again? Anything

like that? And then hopefully by the end of this we'll kind of have a no bs idea of you know, the good and the bad of trying to improve whitetail ground for hunting and for wildlife and who it's right for and maybe who it's not right for, or what are some things that people should think about before they get into this, or for people to have started but feel like they're just kind of muddling around maybe what

to think about next. That's kind of where I see this going tony um, and feel free to press me on some of these things too as we as we discuss. But um, you know, how big was this property? Again? You had that the first one I bought was twenty eight okay, and then this you've you've got remind me

what it looks like now. You bought one, then you had a second, and then you sold one recently into relatively Yeah, so I bought a twenty eight acre property, and a twenty nine acre property and a thirty acre property, and so that's about where uh an outdoor writer, that's

that's the sweet spot there. I did the twenty nine acre property we did sell last year because we had some neighbors come in that we're not fun and it was just it was a property I really wish had not gotten ruined by other people, but it just was really tough. So we got rid of that one. But so now I have a twenty and thirty over in northern Wisconsin. And are they like close to each other? Are they adjacent? Are they two separate different worlds? Um?

They're about probably about ten minutes apart. Okay, all right, So then what I want to know first is I guess, like, I'm sure we'll get into the d I'm curious about getting the details, but like, give me the uh chapter in debt and what is it table of contents? Given the table contents, like a list of all the various projects you can think of off the top of your head that you've tried on those properties over the years.

If you could just like run through what you can think of right now, what would those first things be to come to your mind that you can remember? But you know, probably very similar to your experience. A lot of uh, you know, cutting trails, a lot of cutting brush, a couple of little kill plots, a fair amount of apple tree you know, planning apple trees and working with some natural apple trees kind of open them up. Um.

You know, that's that's primarily what I've done. You know, I don't have I don't even have a four wheeler, so everything I do is by hand. So every bag a line I carry in by hand. And so I'm into little, the little stuff I can do. But that's that's mostly been my focus. And you know it's been well, we'll get into this. It's been fun and not fun at times. Yeah. Alright. So on my side of the coin, I don't own anything, and I haven't owned anything, but my family does own a forty acre piece up in

northern Michigan. So up there we've done some cutting and basically like one small food plot up there. Um. And then I have permission on a property down in southern Michigan where I've done hinge cutting and screening and food plots. There. I've been able to plant about two acres of food plots on that property and I've done some hinge cutting.

I don't know if I said that, um. And then I worked the back forty project of course which I got experienced burning tree planting, using screening, cover planting, switch grass, working on invasive species removals, and uh no till food plots specifically, got to dive into that a little bit. So that's that's kind of my experience set and I started this. UM I did my first food plot, I think thirteen years ago. And that first food plot, Tony, I don't know if you've ever you probably have done

something like this. Well maybe you've done something even more smaller, smaller than this, given what you just described. But my very first food plot was on a property I had permission on in outside of Annarbor, Michigan, so outside of a college town. And I was renting this old, old, old farmhouse. This is my first place I've ever lived outside of college. This is my very first year after college. And I was living in this little rundown farmhouse in the edge of town and it was on a larger farm.

And the owner of this farm um was gonna allow me to hunt it. And I had this idea, like, man, I'd love to try food plotting and want to try all this kind of stuff. So I, uh, I asked if I could plant a food plot in this little corner of grass that tucked into the wood lot that was next to this farm, and the little part of

grass was a part of the landowner's yard. And so basically I was asking, could I plant a food plot in your backyard because it was the only place that seemed like I might be able to do a food plot with the tools I had available without messing with the farm field. And so they let me do it. And I'm trying to remember, I'm trying to remember where this started. I think I went out there. I don't know where I got it, but I must have rented a road or tail, like a push road or till.

I must have got it like an equipment rental place somewhere in town, because I had this little push road to till, and I had like, I don't know, like a twenty yard wide by ten yard wide little space that I was trying to till up like this, and the ground was really hard and dry, and the road of tiller was not hardly making a dent, and I just was out there for I don't know, two or three hours, just kind of slowly chugging along trying to

break up this ground. And you know, I no idea what I was doing, but I was really stoked to be doing something. And uh and the landowner lived in this yard, obviously living in the house at the front of the yard, I think, kept looking at me, and then finally he came out. He's like, you know, I gotta tractor, don't. She's like, why don't. Why don't you just let me make a pass here and then you can be done with it. So he came up with this little lawn tractor and uh just finished it off

for me. But that was my first food plotting experience, was telling this guy's backyard, and Uh, I ended up just like stomping on it with my feet to get it packed. So I foot stomped the whole thing and then I used like a little like plastic grass seeds spreader to spread like some no till food plot seed

on this thing. And uh, sure enough though, stuff sprouted and a food plot came in and UH, I remember thinking it was the coolest thing to actually have planted this little patch of ground and he was all this lush, green looking stuff. I didn't really know what a lot of it was. And uh, I got a trail camera set up there in the first picture of a buck in that food plot. I was like a kid opening the best present on Chris this morning. I was so excited. I mean, I think I yelled out loud, probably, I

was so excited. I mean, it was just the coolest thing to to just do something like that and see it come to life, both the plants and like animals using it. That was like an eye opening experience for me, that very first time when you could do something and see that kind of fruition. Do you remember what what

you actually had planted in there? I remember as a mix, it was like I think it was white tail institutes, no plow or no til mix whatever that whatever that was, So I'm assuming there was probably I think there was some clover in there. There was some kind of brassica in there, and there was some kind of cereal grain, so probably oats or wheat or something like that, some mixture of those things. Yep. I just remember it was

like a a blend. There was the leafy brassicas, there was some wheaty looking kind of stuff, um, and deer in it. And I mean I I didn't I didn't um. I never did shoot anything around that food plot, but I had a camera, and only hunted there one year, I guess before I moved. But that that year I got a bunch of pictures of deer using it, and it just was it was surprising, actually how easy it

was to actually make something. It wasn't great, it wasn't big, it wasn't like earth shattering, but I did a thing like I actually planted something. Deer actually started really using it. And uh and I was just like two years old and really didn't know anything, and I was able to try it. So that was I guess that was encouraging to to start, I suppose. So why why didn't you hunt it more? Well? Um, I only hunted that property one year because I moved. So the next year I

moved about an hour away. Um, so that was my only season there, and I didn't end up you know, try and remember why I had a tree stand that I set on the food plot. Um. And I'm sure I hunted it few times. I really can't remember, Tony, I don't remember. I don't remember what the plan was or why I didn't hunt there more often. I think a lot of it came down to I was also getting permission on some other spots where there was just seemingly better deer hunting, so I end up traveling to

those spots more often. Um. I can only remember a few hunts on this property as I'm like trying to rack my brain right now. I remember one like opening day of that year. I know I wanted to hunt the food plot, but must the wind must have been wrong or something, because I remember really wanted to hunt that spot but couldn't, And I hunted a couple hundred yards down this other corner of the property and shot a doll opening night coming out of this little swale. Um.

But yeah, I can't. I can't recall why I never hunted that spot, but I can't even remember actually sitting on that food plot. I'm sure it must have, but I can't actually remember an experience there. Um, But I'm glad I did it still. Yeah, well, I asked you that because I'm I love working on food plots, and I love seeing that progress and getting the pictures on them.

I just don't like hunting them that much, Like it's at least the ones that I've created, but the process of making them is so worth it to me still, So I wondered if you kind of bumped into that where you're like, man, this is a fun project to take on, even though it's really you know, in like that little kill plot sense, probably not going to change the outcome of your season a whole lot, But man, they're fun to build. So let's let's talk about that. Well,

let's let's talk about the fun part first. So what's fun about him? Because I think some people look maybe they haven't tried it. I might look at it and think, gosh, that's that's like a big farming project that's just gonna take time, energy and sweat, and um, maybe that doesn't sound fun of people? Why was that fun for you? Especially? It might be. I mean, it's kind of surprising to hear you say that, because you're a guy who I expect wouldn't think that's fun. I don't know, man, It's

just it's the same thing. Like I was talking to my wife about this weekend where we're gonna go cut down a bunch of trees and some brush, and I can't wait. And I just like watching trees ball down like I could. I literally when I watch a tree fall down, I feel I can feel my chest hair grow, like I feel like I just become a little more manly.

And you know, even though I know, you know, especially for years I worked on those little kill plots on my properties, knowing almost without question I was never going to sit them, or I might sit one one or two days in like October and just try to shoot

a dough. But I just love the process of just looking at the woods and going, Okay, I'm gonna clear this part out and it's gonna take a couple of years for the soft wood, you know, kind of work its way back into the soil and a a little stumps and stuff, and just like start to see that process of building it up and start seeing does come back with fawns in the spring. And I love every part about it except sitting on it to hunt. Why aren't really hunting them? Ah, I think it's just where I'm

at as a hunter now. I plant those plots and then I do a lot of work on them, and then I drive down the road fifteen miles to public land and I go, you know, totally different style, and

I just want to do that. Like I it feels weird to me partially because it sort of feels like you're just you know, I don't have a place where I'm like, yeah, there's big ones coming in here consistently, Like that's not what I'm hunting, and so I know, like there's an outside chance that one might show up, but I have a better chance of running into a deer I'm gonna want to shoot if I go and you give me a thousand acres a big timber, you know.

So it's just it feels like when I go sit down there, I'm like, Okay, I know, I know what I'm dealing with, and sometimes I love it because it's easy and I might get a crack at a dough, but most of the time I'd rather leave it for somebody else. And now with my my little girls hunting, like I have a perfect excuse to just work as hard as I can on them and then you know,

save them for the girls. Okay, So that was what I was gonna ask Next, is what's the point of planning them then if you don't never really want to hunt those spots. So it's it's mostly now getting your your your girls a good opportunity. It's that's a big motivator right now. But I also, honestly, I just love making them and I just love having the excuse to go over there and put some sweat equity into it.

And even though you know, I mean, I'm not, I shouldn't, like I should clarify this if if I started getting pictures of like at inter coming in every day, I'm gonna plant my ass on that plot. Believe me, it just doesn't really happen for me. Like it's never been the answer to my big buck problems. But I love the process and I love the just feeling of having it. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you what. I do. Agree with the weird

fun of just the project itself. I really have come to enjoy, you know, come from a background of like no experience whatsoever with farming or agriculture or anything like that. Just an excuse to learn about that stuff was really interesting. And then like getting out there and you know, telling us some soil or spreading fertilizer, spreading seed or the the whole new appreciation I found for rain, Like I never paid attention to the rain in any kind of

real way. And now all of a sudden, I've become like hysterical obsessive, you know, checking the weather and monitoring radar and trying to figure out the right time to get out there. And do the work. UM, and then how excited I get when that rain does come when I really need it. I mean those little kind of connective tissues that kind of bring me back to the land Because of those projects, because of working on food plot or something, I really came to enjoy that UM.

And then you know, the payoff. One of my very favorite things about the whole process is that first time you go back out to the site after planting to see, like, is it coming up? How does it look? And the first time you go out there and you see that all that work you put in is actually paying off and there's a lush, green carpet of something. UM. That is a really really cool feeling UM. Not to mention when you go out there and see animals using it.

Now I I different than you. I still like to hunt around my food plots sometimes, but it's to your point, not often because I think I'm gonna kill a big buck there. It's more so because you know, it's a great spot to shoot does, it's a great spot to observe other things UM. And I just enjoy the fun

of watching deer use that place. UM. Especially early on, when like those first food plots, I was doing when I still didn't really know what was going on, and getting to see those changes in dear behavior and seeing those critters enjoying this thing I put that time into, or you know, on the back forty that was such a cool experience because there's so much work that went into that thing, and seeing the pretty dramatic changes in some case that you know it could come about because

of that work and all of a sudden seeing I don't know, there's a lot of stuff that we do tony like in day to day life or in our careers or whatever, where you put in a bunch of work into something and then you don't see like a very tangible result. You don't get noticeable recognition of it or any kind of real payoff. Uh. With a food plot, it's very transactional in a way. Maybe that's not the

right word. But if I do A and if I do it right, I'm gonna get B. And B is the enjoyment of seeing this thing grow and seeing animals use it and and yeah maybe some hunting success, maybe not, but um, it's it's there's not a lot of things within the hunting world that you can control, right. You can't go out on a deer hunt and guarantee your gonna see a deer, shoot a deer, or I don't know,

have a great encounter or anything like that. But if you work on some kind of land project like this, you can at least be guaranteed some kind of result. Might not always be the best result, but some kind of like growth happens, some kind of change happens, and just seeing how nature adapts to the changes you make, that's kind of a fun payoff. Um. I don't know if that makes sense. I'm not sure if I'm describing this right, but um, maybe I think I think it

makes sense. I mean, you know, one of the one of the things that always has bothered me about being in the position that we're in is we were always tasked with like, how's it? What's the point a to be to? You know, not kill a buck? To kill

a buck? And you just realize so much of what we do, like we we you know, we preached the scouting game and you know, long range glassing and boots on the ground, winner scouting, trail cameras, all this stuff, and it's all sort of couched in this idea that this is the path to kill a big one, but really what it ends up being is, yeah, it might nudge you in the right direction any any given moment you spend in the woods, but the act in and

of itself is pretty enjoyable and it's it's something worthwhile regardless of the fact that it probably doesn't take you that much closer, Like in any given scouting trip, probably doesn't take you that much closer to a big bucket might help. But I kind of look at this the same way like this is, you know, working on the land. It's a pretty good reason just to get into the woods and enjoy yourself, regardless of whether you know there's gonna be a bunch of dead hut at the end.

And I think we've missed that message in the outdoor media space a little bit, where we're kind of conditioned to speak like we're always giving the answer to big dead bucks and a lot of this stuff, you know, it's like it's ancilarily might get you there, but mostly it's just really fun for the process of doing this stuff, and you know, it's it's fun. It might help you on the hunting side, It certainly can help you on

the hunting side, and then the whole other thing. You know, you're you're giving back in a way, right, I mean, we go out there, we shoot a deer, bringing home, we eat it. This is a way to kind of come full circle of that. I really do, you know, enjoy that part. I feel like in some kind of way, I'm you know, balancing the scales a little bit. When I can go feed those deer, or feed the rabbits or the birds or whatever, do some kind of improvement

that helps out in a place. Um, I feel a little bit better about going out there and shooting something the next day, UM because of that. UM. So it's fun. I feel like it does bring you into like a closer connection. Like I said, like I've learned so much about rain. I've learned a lot about soil. I've learned about trees and plants and all these things that if I was just out there deer hunting, I don't think I ever would have, or at least not as often

have had to learn about all those things. Um. But I think because I've had to learn about soil and water and sun and different tree type, some plant types.

Because because these kinds of projects have forced me to start learning those things, my experience out there as a hunter is much richer, right when you know, like, oh, that is uh, such and such plant, or this is that kind of true or this you know, I just I'm getting more and more tiny moments of joy when I noticed something in the woods that I never would have noticed as a thing. I used to go through the woods just like on a terminator mission, with only

one thing in mind. And as I've learned more and as my experience has grown, all of a sudden, what used to be like a blank what used to be like a tunnel you just went through. All of a sudden, you realize that there's murals on this tunnel all around you. And if you turn to look at them, you realize there's some incredible artwork all around you. Right, it's like a subway tunnel almost, And I'm noticing all the murals. Now I'm seeing these different plants. I'm seeing, you know,

I'm taking a handful of soil. I'm looking at this, and I used to think this is just dirt, And now I've realized that there's actually a whole lot of life and these unbelievable roots systems and um crazy things going on beneath the surface of the ground that allow plants to grow and trees to grow, and trees to communicate and all this kind of stuff that's super fascinating that I just never ever would have found out about if I hadn't taken this baby step into saying, you

know what, I'm gonna try to do something on this piece of ground and make it better for deer hunting, and then fourteen years later find myself learning about, you know, the importance of soil biology or how trees you know, I don't know. I mean that there's just so many different wormholes you can go down into that are fun interesting, and then no, yeah, it can actually help your hunting too. So I feel like that's like that's my big sales pitch too. Why for some people doing habitat work is

worth it because it can absolutely help. It's it's all those things. But I think the biggest thing is just this way it connects you to a place and opens your eyes to so much more. It opens up all these new doors to enjoy hunting and the outdoors. Um that that just don't come by way of just going out there trying to shoot stuff. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. I mean, one of the things that I enjoy so much about this kind of stuff is like, like you said, you sort of get in tune to

a lot more of the plant life around you. And one of my properties over there in Wisconsin that I the one that I really like. It has a ton of crab apple trees and a ton of dogwood in there.

And so when you go over there at the right at the right time of the year usually sort of the end of September beginning of October, there are so many songbirds coming through and so many grouse feeding in there, and it's like it's just this like added bonus if you do sit there, you know, like when I'm sitting there with my girls, were always looking at something cool because they're in there feeding on this stuff that was

there naturally. I mean, we we opened up some of the crab apple tree system sun so they're you know, they're doing really well now. But that kind of stuff doesn't have anything to do with deer hunting, but it's it sure makes those sits more fun. Yeah, So, of the work that you've done on those properties, are there any specific projects or ways you did anything, or is there anything that stands out as having actually made a

real difference either in killing something or seeing something. I don't know if you could point to a couple of your greatest success stories, does anything come to mind? Man, I'm so bad at this. Uh the one killed plot I have on that property with the dogwood and the crab. The crab apples that one. So I've shot a couple of dollars on it over the years, and then my daughter's one of them shot a doll one of them

shot of four key in there last year. That's sort of my crowning achievement because I've put I think I bought that in so I've put quite a bit of time and work into that, and you know, built a couple you know, cut a couple of entrance and exit routes to get in there and park in different spots. And now when I you know, that one's probably the best I've done, but it's also the one that's I've put the most work into. So what about that? Like, what what is the work that you've done? These things

actually made that as successful as has been? Uh? Cutting down you know when I when I bought it, when I bought that property, I just I don't I don't plan stuff very well and I just walked in there and I was like, I feel like this would be a good spot to start cutting stuff down and started

getting a food plot in here. And I way underestimated the amount of work it would take to get something established, and it was really it probably took me three years of going back in there, cutting brush, clearing everything out, uh you know, carrying bags a line in there because I did a soil test the first year, and you

know I needed to. I needed to bump it up a little bit and just a lot of a lot of work to get it to even be like a like most people would look at it be like this food plot sucks even now they'd be like, this was not done by a professional. But we have deer that use it every year, and there's some dough groups that seem to really have figured it out, and the buck swing through sometimes and it's just it's just been. What I really like about it is it's been like a

multi year process. Like in two weeks, I'm going over there to open it up a little more because I keep finding apple trees in there, and I keep finding cool stuff, and I'm like, man if I if I cut it another ten yards deep, this way, I'll have a nice apple tree on the edge of it that gets a bunch of sun and you know it can't hurt.

And I just I love I sort of love that feeling of like not never being finished with it, Like there's always something I can go do over there, just around that plot that's gonna eat up a couple of days of my time here and there, and I just I love that. I love that option. Yeah, what's this area? Like? Is this is this like big woods northern Wisconsin kind of stuff or is the Agg country or like, what's what's the canvas you're working on this? It is right

on the cusp of big woods. So you'll see some egg in the area. There really isn't any egg close to this property, but it's it's in an area where that the kind of the last messages of agg give way to real big woods. So I can you know a lot of the places that I that I hunt there that are public. You know, that's like a fifteen minute drive and you're in thousands and thousands acres of big wood stuff, So it's it's really not a very

good place to hunt. I get I get as many pictures of bears and bobcats as I do deer on that plot, and you know, I plant apple trees in there and cage them up, and the bears tear them down. And you put a blind in there, the bears tear them down. It's not. This is not like Iowa stuff. It's it's it's a significant step down, but it was, you know, where I could afford, and I love I love having the grouse there are, and you know some

of the local trout streams and stuff. So it's not I would never give people advice and be like, hey, man, if you really want good deer hunting, this is where you should go, because this is not it. But it's good enough. Well it's funny, Uh, it's kind of it's kind of like our northern Michigan spot, which, if I'm thinking of my success stories, our little food plot that we've planted on our forty acres up north is one of my greatest successes and we've never once shot a

deer anywhere near it. But but it's this, it's this spot that, right, I love for so many reasons, for all the history there and all the time I've spent up there. But it's a place where we've you know, have never seen very many deer at all. Haven't killed a whole lot of deer over the years, at least not in the last fifteen twenty since the old hey days, UM. And we we had this idea like, hey, maybe we could improve things a little bit with a food plot.

And what ended up happening kind of like what you described. We cut down a whole lot of trees. It was a lot more work than we realized it was gonna be had. We didn't have big equipment, so we're we did have a four wheeler, UM, but we were taking you know, loads around way around to get across this creek of lime and fertilizer and supercidic soil. So we really had to fix the soil up and had to cut a million pine trees to open up a little

bit of space. And then we didn't really have a good plan for getting rid of a million tree stumps since like all that stuff all stacked up and end up being a heck of a project over multiple years. But we got a little something growing and then the next year is a little bit better, and the next year is a little bit better, and we put cameras on a couple of cameras on either side of this food plot, and all of a sudden we had our

eyes opened to what's out there. I mean, for years and years and years, we would hunt and see very few deer, like I said, and you know, even the couple of cameras we had up and around there did not get very much activity because this was like big woods habitat big woods, low deer density kind of stuff. But by putting this little, tiny, I don't a third acre food plot in the middle of the big woods where there's no egg, no nothing, all of a sudden

this spot really became a hot spot. Um. And even we only hunt there a few days a year, so we're not, you know, taking advantage of it necessarily. But what the cameras tell us is, all of a sudden, there are deer out here, There are deer here consistently, and all of a sudden, holy crap, there actually are bucks. And sometimes there's some pretty nice bucks out here. So what it did for us more than anything, was just like give us a big boost of hope and excitement.

Like just checking the camera on that food plot is so exciting to see, like, oh man, there was bucks here and that day and there was a buck here that day, and there was a buck here that day. And I can tell you seven years ago there was zero excitement like that. There was zero optimism like that.

And now all of a sudden, a little project and photos of what's going on on it when we're not there have like shine this brand new light on this place for us and um, and you know, I think it just like you said, it becomes a thing you can continue to tinker with and and I imagine some days sitting there with my son while got actually got to sit I got to sit on this food plot with my son last year, first first hunt up at

our deer camp of his life at three years old. Me, my dad and my son sat in a blind that my grandpa built thirties some years ago and got to look out over this food plot. We didn't see a deer, but man, it was it was really cool to sit there together and be sitting somewhere that we put in work together to try to improve and uh see that kind of legacy that we started and with with Everett hopefully will be continued. Um. It's it's a cool thing all the way around, that is. And you bring up

a good point there. It does give you, It does give you a weird sense of hope in a place that you know, like it would be very easy to

just say there's no bucks here, no big Bucks. And that's That's one thing I've noticed on all my properties to is if I run a camera on a little kill plot, at some point during the season, a buck that surprises me is going to show up, you know, and it's always gonna be like a top end dear for wherever, and it's just it's amazing, and you just you think, like, man, he's he's in the neighborhood, you know, like maybe clearly not living right on your property, but

like you said, there's a chance, like when you know he's there, like, Okay, he knows this is here, he knows the does are here. Like when you go out there to hunt, even though it's low odds, like that dude still could come down the trail, walk out into

your plot. And I think, I think you know, when it comes to habitat work, Just like anything in the hunting world, the success you enjoy from any given idea or tactic or project, it's going to be on a sliding scale, right, I mean, if you dabble in it, there's less odds. If you really take it hardcore all the way. Maybe you increase your odds if you're doing everything right and you know just the way to operate

in YadA YadA, YadA. Um. So I mean, you can go all the way like the Jeff Sturgeons approach and and have it very very carefully planned out and of to land and a lot of food plots and a lot of land improvements and everything, and you can enjoy some great success that way. Or you can just dabble and try to scrape in a little kill plot with a Rhodo tiller or something and just have that little bit of hope. Um. But I do think that if you like, like you said, there's always a little bit

more of a chance. There's a little more hope if you do something versus nothing. And and I actually have seen, you know, even with my pretty pedestrian efforts compared to you know what, people have big equipment and a lot of land experience do even my pedestrian efforts, I absolutely have seen some pretty um, pretty noticeable benefits from my habit at work stuff that I can like point to and say, man, this just wouldn't have happened if I

hadn't done this project or that project. I mean, you know, none of these things are like silver bullets, right, You're not just gonna throw out some seed and all of a sudden killed big bucks necessarily. But you know, like I said, up north, we'd we'd spent all this time putting this little any plot in the middle of the woods, and now like we're seeing deer and camera that's exciting.

Um or you could take it a look at something like, um, oh, like this farm I've hunted for a number of years down in southern Michigan where forever, um, I would see a lot of good deer, but they're always on the neighbor's property because the neighbor had all the really good cover. And then all I had on the side of the line that I could hunt were these big egg fields.

And as soon as that stuff was taken out, you know, there'd be there'd be does and young bucks and stuff that would come out to those big white open fields. But you would never get one of the bigger, older bucks to come out in the open. So for years I just sat the edges of the property line because I wanted to be as close as it could be to that cover and hope that one of these bucks would pop out eventually, but they almost never ever did.

UM eventuallyized there was a spot in a power line where I did have permission to make some improvements, so I dabbled with trying these different food plot ideas and that helped. But like the big change for me in

this specific example was I started planting screening cover. So imagine like a swampy, thick, grassy, nice betting area adjacent to big, wide open like hundred and some acre you know, open bean field or corn field, and then there's a little point that sticks out of that that would just be kind of like short grass underneath this power line. I converted this power line clearing, which is just another

essentially more of this wide open country. I converted that into a food plot with like thirteen foot tall Egyptian wheat all around the outside edges of it. And that is now right next to this thick, nasty betting area.

So what went from being, you know, no big bucks gonna want to go out of the thick cover out into that wide open field or that wide open power line clearing, to all of a sudden, now there's this food that's covered with a wall all around it, making it seem like just a very nice, little secluded food pocket right next to the betting area. It totally changed what happens there. So with that one improvement, there was now a reason for those bucks to come across the line.

And so without big equipment, without a lot of money, you know, I made these food plots with a four wheeler and a little hundred and eighty dollar disc that went underneath the four wheeler. When I first started doing this, um, all of a sudden, the good bucks that are on the neighbors were willing to come out to mine in daylight. And you know, I've shot two bucks in that spot.

One was a three year old one was a five year old hundred six buck in Michigan that you know, no way in hell would he have come out there, I think, out in the wide open if it hadn't been for those types of things in the past. UM making that feel safe again. So you know, I do think it's possible even these small little pedestrian projects in some cases, in some situations can have tangible like oh

wow effects. UM. Not to mention many many fun hunts for dose on them and then not to mention like, even if these spots don't become places you actually sit and hunt, even a small food plot or a water hole or a patch of apple trees or something, even if you don't hunt right on them, I do think like you can still utilize that within a hunting strategy, right because you now know, okay, this is a new destination of sorts. There will be deer relating to this

in some way or another. So a mature buck might not come to your little hudeyhole food plot in daylight, but a very well might cruise down wind of it in the rut to be sent checking it, or he might swing past it on the way back to bed in the morning or whatever. I mean. I think there are ways that that can only sweeten the pot if you think about how it factors into the bigger picture.

You know, absolutely, um So, so let me see here I mentioned how the screening cover was one of those things that kind of disproportionately helped me out with some of my small plots and improvements. Um you know, I've done some hinge cutting and that's helped in some spots I have not been able to do anything really big timber provement. But I can tell you that hinge cutting was one of those deals that had, you know, pretty high impact for a relatively small amount of work from

relatively inexperienced kind of perspective. Um, I mean those have been like the big things I did. You know on the back forty we burned stuff, we planned switched grass, we got rid of some invasive grasses and stuff, and and I guess one big impact we had there was we were working with those old farm fields, you know, Tony, And that year you came. You came the first year,

the second year you came. The second year. Okay, so the year prior to you coming, those fields were way more desolate, Like they were like really short and all like just like it was Mare's tale. So it was like they almost looked like a beanstalk after all the bean pods fall off, you know on the fall. Um, that's what that whole field looked like the year the year prior. But the year you came, I mean you saw it there was a lot more not saying it was all thick and tall, but it was much more

dear friendly in year two than year one. And you saw not all of them, but a number of deer were willing to move through there and cross through there and and utilize those spaces, um at least noticeably more than they had the year before. UM. That was we're definitely using that. When I was out there, and that was you know, that was another thing that didn't require anything fancy. I mean, we just we went out there and did a spray and then hand broadcast um, hand

broadcast switch grass. The spray knocked out the mare's tale. The hand broadcast seed got some switch grass in there, and that was all took to get switch grass to get started a little bit and then to open up space for other native things to come back. UM. And that was again like not the hardest, craziest thing to do,

but actually made a noticeable difference. I think, like the point I'm trying to get here, Tony, I guess, in a very long roundabout way, is that you don't need to be Mark Dury and have a huge John deer tractor to test these kinds of things out and to see some kind of benefit. UM. I think that's that's been my overarching big picture lesson over the last thirteen years or whatever it's been, is that you can even as a Joe Schmo like me, have fun with it

and see some positive, positive benefits well for sure. And I think what was really impressive at the back ford it was that you did all that in two years. And I you know, anybody who was asking me like, hey, I want to do this stuff, I want to put in a food plot, I would be my My first bit of advice would be, like, make sure that you have a couple of years to do this, because you're

gonna learn what you did wrong. And like, you know, when you're you're kind of joking about paying attention to the rain, but like, man, if you if you're in the wrong situation and you plant that you know, plant that seed and it stays dry, it's just hopeless. Like you know, like you just learn how to work with your individual property and your local weather, and you make

a lot of mistakes. So it's it might take a couple of years to get some real tangible results and you know, to maybe get through some of the frustration of the beginning stages, but it's so worth it. Well, so then I think that's a perfect segue though to the next kind of side of this conversation though, is like while there are certainly things you can do that make a difference, and it can be fun. It can

also be all the other things too. It can be it can feel like a waste of time, it can be a ton of work, it can cost money, it can be frustrating, and it might not lead to much noticeable impact too. Um. You know there's a there's a dark side to habitat work too. Um. I mean how much of that resonates with you? I mean how much if you if you look at like this whole world of habitat work and the things you've done with would you say it's in that positive or sometimes like dang

this stuff stupid? Uh No, I would say it's in that positive. I have a low I have low standards there. You know, I'm not expecting I'm not expecting to create a deer o wastis or anything like that. So I come at it maybe differently than a lot of people would. But you know, yeah, there's some frustrating parts to it.

I mean, man, I I've I've spent a lot of time cutting brush and doing some things where I'm just like I don't that's like all that was was like a exercise and just doing something like it's not going to change anything. And I've had times where I've I've tried to plan a food plot and for whatever reason it got overtaken by weeds because I couldn't get back there to cut it, or you know, the weather didn't shake out right. And so yeah, I mean there's frustrating

parts to it. I mean you're gonna get stung by bees and you're gonna pick up a bunch of ticks, and you know it's not like all you know, roses and unicorn farts here. Man, Like some of it sucks bad, but it's still so worth it. I look at it, like, you know, I always talk to my daughters when we when we wake up to go fish Smally's in the summer and you know, it's four thirty in the morning or whatever time it is, and if we go out

and have we don't catch them there. I was like, oh, if we should have stayed in and and you know, slept in, it wasn't worth it. And I'm just kind of like, I don't know, I don't want to miss the sunrise, Like I don't want to miss a chance to work in the woods, even if it's you know, maybe not the greatest outcome that I expect, or it's you know, falls kind of flat. I still think that

stuff is so worth it. It's so funny. We might we might be becoming like old men, Tony, because I feel like we're kind of revolving around the same idea that we were kind of talking about a few weeks ago, when we're just kind of we're discussing kind of our evolutionist deer hunters in general. Right, And so much of what I used to be focused on was the outcome, right, was all about like am I going to shoot a big buck? And how we're both you you know, have

been figuring this out sooner than I did. But getting more focused on what the journey looks like to get there in the process and enjoying everything along the way. I think the same thing is I'm realizing now applies to all this habitat work too. It's like, if you adjust your expectations and how you judge a thing by in this case, you know, enjoying the process itself, you know it's it's gonna make for a way better experience

all the way around. So I think that if you approach land management or trying to improve your habitat and you're just focused on Man, I want to do this because I want to kill more big bucks, or I want to kill a sevent buck, or I want you know, four or four year olds to be out here every year, whatever it is. If that's what you're gonna be judging your you know, success or the results of having bought

a piece of ground or started managing ground. If that's the way you're gonna look at things, you are giving yourself a very good chance of failure and frustration. If you instead can approach it as, hey, you know what, this is a thing that I think will be fun and worthwhile just for doing it, Like just the act of it, just the learning and just getting out here and work in the ground and doing these things and hopefully making a positive difference, like that will be fun.

And then also if I get to enjoy the hunting benefits, to which are certainly possible, if that ends up panting out, man, that's even better. If you can approach it that way, I think that eliminates, you know, so much of the possible downside, um, because they're they're just gonna be a

lot of bumps in the road. Like there, Like you said, there's gonna be some really long, hot, sweaty, nasty, muggy days in August or May, and there's gonna be broken equipment, broken four wheelers, or broken lawnmowers or sprayers that blow up, or I mean, I've had so I don't know anything about anything when it comes to mechanics and engines or anything.

And I've had so many days sitting out there with a four wheeler with a dead battery, or a lawnmower that won't start, or a lawnmower that the blade the blades come off for the belts come off, for some ship is not working right, and I don't know what to do. I'm sitting out there in the middle of the woods and I'm trying to pull up a YouTube video on my phone and learn how to do this stuff.

And I'm cussing, and you know, I mean, if it's so how many things like that, Um, that's what you're signing yourself up for if you want to go down this road. But if you can, if you can look at that is like the hairy side of a good time, then you'll be okay. But you've got to be willing to eat your lumps in the Porridge with the whole deal.

You know, yeah, I think it could really appropriate. Analogy would be, you know, you and I get hit up a lot of who people who want to go on their first out of state trip, right you know, they

want to go to Kansas or Iowa or somewhere. They want to shoot a big buck, and you know, you start talking to them and then you hear the expectations and it's like, you know, I'd just be happy with a nice one type buck and you just go, you know, I know, I know you think this way and I do too, Or in my head, I'm like, man, are you you know, I don't care what state you're coming from. Are you killing like top end bucks pretty consistently? Like are you you know, are you really in this thing?

Or are you just thinking that you know, I'm going to a good state and that's going to make up for everything. And if you if you go into those hunts with realistic expectations, you have a great hunt. If you go into them sort of blinded to the process and how much it can suck the camp and you might be camping in you know, three days of rain, or you might do that early velvet hunt and it's gonna be a hundred degrees every day, Like are you

ready for all of the that stuff? And it's so tied into you know, this land management habitat work where a lot of it is really not that much fun, but it is worth the effort, and if you go into it with kind of that mentality like, yeah, a lot of this is gonna suck, and you know if you look at you know, the the results that could be if you're in a place that just generally doesn't

have very good deer hunting. You know, like when you're talking about your Northern Michigan stuff, you know, like that's you're you're gonna make that better and you're gonna give yourself something to look forward to, and it's it's gonna enhance the hunt, but it's not going to be the silver bullet to killing a bunch of big woods bucks

all of a sudden. You know, like if you if you go to do this down in southern Iowa and your grandma has a thousand acres, Yeah you can put in a little kill plot and have a hundred and sixty inch run around opening night. It's a different thing, but you've got to be aware of like what you're really dealing with here, and a lot of it is a lot of just you know, kind of nasty work that really isn't gonna pay off with tons of filled tags,

but the process is still absolutely worth it. Yeah, comes down to embrace in that process, Like if you if you wanna go deep with a place, like I think there's there's a couple of ways to approach deer hunting. And you know, if you're someone who's learned that they love white tails and hunting of some kind, like you can go to two different directions. You can also do

both of these to varying degrees. But you can go like far in one direction, which is like I want to be like a d I Y traveling hunter and go to different places or get permission on a bunch of different places and you know, travel and do all that kind of stuff. You can kind of go wide, or you can go deep into one place with your own back forty or your own whatever your grandpa's place, or you buy a spot and you you learn this small piece or whatever kind of size piece you can get.

You learned that intimately, and there's something like really cool with both of those, Like I've I've been lucky to be able to do both. UM and I really like the fact that I can do both UM and UM. You know, I think there's probably different types of people that one or the other appeals to, and then some folks probably would enjoy both just like I do. UM.

But but they are very very different. UM. And I think this route, the habitat route, is for that person who wants to have like a a very for lack of a better word, like intimate relationship with a with a place with you know, a landscape with work itself

like this is very work intensive. Um, but again I go back to like finding ways to make it fun, you know, like for me, like the work up on our northern Michigan property, Like that's a fun thing because it's not just the work itself, but it's an excuse to like spend time with my dad. Like knowing that Okay, we're gonna go work on the food plot means I'm gonna go pick up my day. We're going a drive or a go for breakfast. We're gonna have a two hour drive and talk about stuff they would never get

to talk about otherwise. We'll get to go up there. He'll work for ten minutes and have to sit down and be sweating a lot, and I'll give him a hard time about how he's getting old, and like all that stuff becomes a part of it. And I think those are the things that make a lot of this stuff special. Um, it's not you know, it's not always the hundred and that walks out in the middle of

food plot. It might be more about the night you sit, you know, sit there with your son and he sees his first turkey come out in the food plot and he's freaking out and all excited and all that kind of stuff where it's that the day with your dad, or it's the day with your daughters, or it's that. I don't know. I just think it it comes to like all like the larger experienced stuff more than like

the shooting stuff, final outcome. That's I mean, I guess I'm repeating myself over and over again, but that's that's what this stuff kind of comes down too for me, big time. I have something I want to talk about that is a negative to this that occurred to me though. Should we go that route? It? When you when you go through this process of you know, putting in a

food plot and doing this work food plot specifically. One of the downsides to it, I think is the poll to always sit there, you know what I mean, because you always you know, the kind of goal with a lot of property management now is to create this the destination spot, right like put that food plot in, have that you know, box blind over it, maybe have a little pond in there situated just so you can get

in and get out. And it's just like that place where it's so easy to default to that because it is an easy hunt, you know, and you expect to see stuff and you probably will, and you put that work in. But in the interest of you know, being an effective hunter, if that's something you're really concerned with, like not just not just like well I want to go sit there because it's a fun place to go, but actually be in the moment with every hunt and

and maybe make better decisions. Sometimes this kind of stuff can set you back because it gives you such an easy out. So true, I think it's it's one of those anything that locks you into a spot, you know, whether that's a really nice comfortable box blind or a food plot you worked on or hard to move letder stand, like anything that just makes you more apt to be tempted to sit the same spot over and over again.

Has that other side of the coin that can be dangerous, and you know you've got to kind of learn to work around that. Either it doesn't. Either you decide that you don't care and that you're fine just seeing does in that spot and like that's why you have it, and then that's fine, I guess, or you start to learn about, you know, how you adapt to those behaviors, and maybe you realize that, hey, you know what, this

food plot has spent a lot of time on. I'm not gonna hunt on it, but I do know that if I hunt a hundred fifty yards over this way, a couple of times might be able to catch a buck cursing down wind of it. And then you can still take advantage of it. Um. So yeah, you gotta

get you gotta get smart about all that kind of stuff. Um. And that's you know, it opens up a whole wormhole of possibilities if you want to go deep into it and start to really figure out, how can I take advantage of it still and how can I smartly design these things, and how can I make it so that I can still hunt it? Or can hunt nearby, or can do these things without spooking deer, or encourage mature buck use or whatever the goal is. Um it is a big, huge wormhole you can dive deep into and

and really get crazy with if you want. I mean, that's that's a fun part of it for those that that appeals to. Yeah, and it does. It does open your eyes, you know. I know this has happened to me a bunch of times where I'll go out and shed hunter winter scout one of my little properties just for the hell of it. And when I see the sign where it is, or if I run a camera in a spot that I'm just kind of curious about,

it tells me, you know, how out it. Maybe maybe I'm putting a little too much into this, but I sure feel like I get a lot of lessons on how the deer, Like, yeah, that dude likes to go to that plot, or you know, every time that that truck pulls up, there's a good chance that somebody's going to be in that blind and they even on little properties, it can be a real eye opener if you have that default spot, how those deer are just working around you. Yeah,

very true. So what is one, what's one takeaway you would say it is worth sharing for you when it comes to, you know, one one lesson learned you've had over the years dabbling in this stuff that you would like to pass along to someone who is either interested in doing this someday or who has began this journey. What's what's one thing you want to leave them with? Ah,

this maybe this is like a greater life lesson. But just just figure out how to love the process, you know, like you, I know you're training for a half marathon this summer, and I do a lot of running, and there's so many things in life where we kind of just get locked into the end goal, Like I want to run that thirteen point one miles and I want

to do it in two hours. Okay, that's a great goal, but like all of these weeks spent running building up to that, that's worth way more than that final product, right, Like it's awesome at the end of your season to have a great, big dead buck to send pictures out and post your grip and grins on Instagram and all that, but really it's so much more fun, Like there's there's so much that you're missing with just the focus on that like the process of doing this stuff like scouting

deer and you know, if you want to go into public land on three states over and figure them out, so much of it is is so much more enjoyable than we kind of give it credit for because we tend to always talk about the end results of this stuff.

And land management is the same way, Like you give yourself a chance to really of the process of cutting down brush and thinking about plants and thinking about what you're gonna do and how you'd approach it and how you design this and you know, what time of year do you have to go over there and get this work done? Now, Like all of that process it can be so enjoyable if you learn to just like really

dive in and appreciate it for what it is. Yeah, yeah, I definitely second that, And I would kind of add to that in that, you know, one of the things that I often am guilty of is um making everything rushed, where I somehow feel like I'm always rushed. I guess I'm always always I never have time for anything, and I feel like I'm constantly behind the eight ball, and so I end up just being on like some kind

of crazy mission like knock this thing out. Knocked this thing out, Get this thing done, Get this thing done, Get this thing done. Um And because of that, everything feels like very high pressure, Like if I don't get this food plot in right now, I'm gonna miss the rain. The food plot's gonna fail, this thing's gonna suck. And then I'm out there for seven hours in the ninety degree heat and I'm miserable, and I'm racing back home

to make sure I don't miss lunch or whatever. It is. Like, I find myself getting to those types of positions a lot, and I'm out there, I'm doing it on my own. I'm time pressured. YadA, YadA, YadA YadA. What is a lot more fun is when I do a little bit better job planning these things, and I carve out time and I find a way to set the expectation like, hey,

I'm gone for two days this thing. I'm gonna do this thing, and I'm gonna bring a family member along or i'm gonna invite some friends, and I'm gonna do the little extra preparing I need to do to make this a fun event and not like a quick mission that I have to get done before all hell breaks loose. If I can do that little planning and say, hey, like this this day, I'm just gonna do this thing. I'm not gonna be stressed about it. I'm not gonna race back to try to get this other thing done.

I'm just like, this day is gonna be for doing this stuff and to make a day like, make a fun day out of it. Make the time to allow you and your buddy to get breakfast beforehand, invite your friend to come on out and help out and you know, have some camaraderie, or go and pick up your son and your daughter, or in my case, like go do something with my dad and make it a fun thing instead of like a chore that has to get done, it could become an event that's fun to get done.

And the more I do that, the more I enjoy that process. Um, So that's a thing that this is very much like a aspiration of mine. I don't do that enough, but the times that I do that, I'm always I'm glad I did it. So that would be a suggestion. So can we take the last two minutes there, cut that out, send it to Mrs Kenyon and see how hard she laughs. She would laugh Yeah, she's like this asshole thinks he's gonna get so much free time.

Just wait till the boys are in t ball and basketball. No, but it's there's truth to this tot because it's like it comes back down to the expectations. Like I always find out if I try to like slip in like a little time to this, a little bit time to do that last minute, it's harder than if I, like a week or two ahead of time, said hey, I need to do this thing, when would be a good

time for me to do it? And then I just need to carve out like this day or these two days or whatever like that always seems to work out better for me when I operate in that kind of way versus like Saturday saying, oh ship, I gotta get this food plot in, I'm gonna be gone to lunch, but I promise I'll be back before lunch, and then that you know, I meant up being two hours late and YadA, YadA, YadA, and that's no good. Hey, buddy,

I get what you're saying. I do. I've just I've been married a little bit longer and had kids a little bit longer, and I'm just uh, I love your optimism, buddy. Well, I'll come back and talk to you in a decade and we'll see how it's going. Okay, So there's oh, you know one other thing I'll add, which is one like one tactical thing, if there's any one, if there's any one thing that I would say that has helped me from a strategic perspective, like actual some bolts of

making habitat improvements work. There's any like overarching thing that I do think has been really important. It is to try to think about your property in like a holistic kind of way. Like any improvement, no, no improvement, no project lives in isolation. So by that I mean like if you go and you pick a random opening and you plan a food plot there, you've got to know that that's going to influence everything else. So if you plan a food plot, you've got to think about, Okay,

how is that going to change, dear? Movement? How is that going to change how I can access a spot? How is that going to change how I exit the spot? How is that going to change? How dear? Maybe you're coming or leaving, and and then that should all be factored into your decisions when deciding what to improve, where to improve something, how to improve something, how to change

how you travel or don't travel. All these things are connected and and that's something that has really been like continuously kind of brought home to me because I remember, like we talked about this couple don't a month ago

or something. We're out there, uh in Wisconsin Tonia. I was talking about one of the first food plots I planned and how I planted it in the one spot that seemed like the easiest spot to plan a food plot, and I thought, oh, this would be great, but I didn't really factor in the fact that it's also right next to the one way I can get in and out of this property, so it's constantly having to walk back and forth past it and spooking deer every time I came in the morning, spooking deer every time I

came out in the evening, and that was negatively impacting my hunting. I was trying to do something to improve my hunting, and because I didn't think about the ramifications of attracting deer to a new spot, I was actually hurting things. And I think there's a lot of different examples of ways that can happen on a property. So just just thinking about that ahead of time and trying to plan things in a thoughtful way, we'll save you

a lot of headaches in the long run. Um. And And that's a just one simple thing to think about when you get started with this is is consider what these changes will what these changes will lead to, and make sure that a good thing for you. Um. And then I guess the one other thing, And this is something that's been like a like a a journey for me. I went from early on just like what can I do that will help me get a buck in front

of me to shoot it? Like that was what I was trying to do with that very first food ply planet thirteen or fourteen years ago to now I'm getting more and more interested in you know, what can I do to actually make this place better for everything? Um?

Because you know, I think as you start to go down this road we like we talked about, you start noticing the trees, You start noticing the plants, You start noticing the butterflies and the birds and the frogs and the quail and the different stuff like that, and appreciating that stuff more. I think, especially once you start doing projects and seeing more of them show up or seeing them use your land more often. Um, like that's really

fulfilling too. So I've gotten more and more interested in trying to learn how not just how I can improve my property for deer, but just how can I improve this place as a whole. And um, I think that's that's all the satisfying to do that as well, and it's going to help your deer hunting no matter what. So that's my final thought is open the aperture a little bit, and I think you'll you'll be rewarded in

ways you never quite imagine. Yeah, I would say if I have like a concluding thought on kind of on that note, would be keep it simple right away. Like I remember when I started planting food plots and you know, messing with apple trees and stuff. I had a buddy he works in a in a co op, a feed store, and I was like not having very good luck getting

stuff to grow. And I was doing the same thing you talked about when it was just like throw and grow, and you know, I had a soil test done, but I kind of didn't take it that seriously and he was just like, dude, bringing the lime, fertilize it, right, and He's like, use clover and oats. And I was like why and he said, because don't grow. He's like, I think he was reading me. He's like, I think that you're not very good at this, and you can

get these two things to grow. And it made me realize, you know, like I kind of had this dream about you know, that came from seeing a lot of food plots on outdoor teller television and hearing about them from people who have a lot better equipment and a lot better chance to get it to work. And my buddy was just like, listen, you're dealing with shitty soil in

northern Wisconsin. Just just do what you have to to get this to grow, and stop thinking about, you know, what you would do in someplace else, because that's not where you're working. And so you kind of just have to work with what you have in front of you. It doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to

be pretty. You know. Like that's such a great point, you know, I think so much of the expectations we placed on ourselves are based on what we see in the media and how great it looks and how amazing it looks, and how great the deer Hunting is everything, and if if your reality doesn't match up to that, it can be disappointing. Um but dear, don't, dear, do not need a perfectly manicured, beautiful carpet of of clover forty acres wide, um, next to fifty acres of perfect seaters.

They don't need that to you know, come and hang out. So even a little tiny patch of crappy clover mixed with a bunch of weeds, like that's better than nothing. Um, So yeah, do what you can. Try stuff, have some things that work, have some things that don't work, Carving a little something. I think it's all when it comes down to enjoying that process, getting out there, getting your hands dirty, being outside, and yeah, trying to make a little bit of good stuff happen out there. Like, just

just do something. I think that's that's a really good point. Well do you think do you think we wrapped her up good enough? Buddy? I don't know. I don't know if there's anything valuable that we've discussed this entire time, because mostly two guys that are kind of okay at this who kind of know what they're talking about. But we're not experts on this. Subject. We kind of like it, we kind of don't like it. We're saying, yeah, I

kind of do this, but don't do that. I'm not sure what anyone will take away from this except for the fact that every one listening should feel one qualified to try habitat work. Because if a couple of bows I was like me and Tony can do it, you can do it too. And I think that is the

big takeaway here today. Absolutely all right, buddy, Well, thanks for rambling on this one with me, and over the next couple of weeks we're going to bring on a series of more experienced folks with some different ideas and perspectives to help anybody who is interested into either going deeper into the habitat world or just trying it for the first time. Well, thanks for having me, buddy. All right,

and that's a wrap. I appreciate you tune in. This is just the first of a series of Habitat related episodes we're gonna run this spring, so stay tuned. If this is something you're interested in learning more about, We've got a lot more coming, so appreciate your time. Thank you, and until next time, stay wired to