Ep. 521: How to Live a Life Dedicated to Hunting, Fishing, and Conservation with T. Edward Nickens

We're here for another episode in our Conservation Month series. Now, so far we've learned about issues specifically related to white tailed deer conservation. In their last year, we've explored the conservation legacy and philosophies of Although Leopold, and most recently, we dove into the particulars of grassland conservation, the impacts that has on deer and other wildlife, and recent attempts

to protect these landscapes and animals. Now today we're gonna zoom out to the general but I guess at the same time we're kind of diving right in to the heart of the matter. What I mean by that is that, you know, I think it's been pretty clearly established that if we want to enjoy deer and deer hunting and open space and all these other things we enjoy outdoors. If we want to do that, it's on us to

help conserve and protect these things in the future. But how the hell do we actually do that, especially when it's seeming like, you know, there's there's so many challenges out there facing the natural world, and are hunting lifestyle not to mention all the other bs that we've got going on in our own lives that we need to deal with and figure out. So how can we actually make a difference. How do we make the time time for it? How do we figure out what's worth doing

and what's not. How do we do something that matters? You know, we hear all the time about how we need to be conservationists, but what does that actually look like in real life? This is what I want us to explore today. And joining me for this conversation is t Edward Nikins, more commonly known as Eddie Nikins. Now Eddie's Life, I think is a perfect illustration of this lifestyle we're trying to put a finger on. I want to understand what it looks like to live a life

dedicated to hunting and fishing and conservation. Look no further than Eddie Nikkins. Eddie is a long time outdoor writer, with much of his work focused on conservation related issues. He's been prominently featured in magazines from Field and Stream to Garden and Gun, to Audubon and The Smithsonian. He's the author of the best of the Total Outdoorsman, the Total Life Manual, and recently the phenomenal collection of hunting

and fishing essays, The Last Wild Road. On top of that, he's also a National board member for back Country Hunters and Anglers. More importantly, though, this is a guy who just absolutely loves to hunt, fish and recreate outside and he's done a ton of it. He spends his life doing these kinds of things, and he's also thought long and hard about how he can work to keep these opportunities around. But he's not just thought about. He's actually gone ahead and taking the many small steps necessary to

try to make this a reality. And short, I think from what I see, from what I've read, from what I'm picking up from him, I think he's found a way to incorporate this, this idea of a conservation ethic into his daily life. This is the terrain we're setting forth into now, so sit back and enjoying my conversation with Eddie Nikins. Alright here with me now on the line is Eddie Nikins, Eddie Well from the show. Hey, good to be here. Mark. I really appreciate you making

the time to do this. You've you, like I mentioned before we started recording, I've been reading your work for years and years and years now like so many other people, and uh, it's just a real treat to get to finally talk to you in person and uh and kind of picked your brain. So thanks for making the time to do this. Yeah, and I appreciate you not saying that you've been reading my work for decades and decades, which it could have been. It could have been the case,

but let's not doing U. Yeah. I don't want to date you too much there, but but yes, I uh, I don't know what year it was that your first articles and Field and Stream came out, but I know it's been a long time ago and I was picking them up back in oh, probably the mid nineties is when I probably was paging through those first issues when I was seven or eight maybe. Um, so I know you've been putting your print on that magazine for a long time and continue to and many other places. So

I'm I'm a fan. I'm a big fan of of the written word and the way you've done it. So I'll try not to nerd out on the writing thing, though, because there's a lot of people out there that probably aren't as interested in the craft of writing as I am. So I won't get into that, but I will get into the topic of your writing, Eddie. Um, since everyone

listening isn'to hunting and fishing in the outdoors. But I guess that that kind of sets up the first thing I was curious about, because you've done You've done a whole lot over the years, Eddie. You've you've written, of course, and a number of different formats, but you've also done videos and some digital stuff and and TV hosting and whatnot. So so I'm curious about this, Eddie. When you're at a dinner party, let's say, and you meet somebody new and they ask you, you know, Eddie, what do you

do for a living? How do you answer that question to a new person who who doesn't have any context, who's not a hunter or angler like you are, necessarily, how do you how do you approach that one. Yeah, that's an interesting an interesting point with a with an obvious answer mark right. Um, that's what I consider my job and my craft. Uh, and my that's who I am. Um.

And so I don't say I'm an outdoor writer. Um, I'm I'm a writer, and I do make part of my living doing other things, although it all tends to be centered on some sort of word expression, whether it's video or script writing or but I'm a writer and that's what I say. Um. And the reaction to that is, you know, what are you write? And then we'll go

into running into the fishing and the outdoor travel. But you know, I tell people that I just I love stories, meaningful stories, and they just happened to be they happen to be told through the lens of the hunting and fishing. Um. And that kind of takes us into some interesting conversations from there as you can imagine that that's that's what I am. I am a writer. And there have been

tim's when I they're the last, certainly with the digital revolutions. Um, if I wanted to be something different, but man, I've come back to I think that's what I'm put on this put on this planet for is to string words together. So I'm gonna I'm gonna indulge myself here a minute, Eddie, and everybody else listening will have to bear with me. But you're you're a storyteller, You're a writer. But but like you said, you tell, you tell good stories. You

enjoy stories, you enjoy the craft of good stories. So, Eddie, what what makes a good story? Mm? Hmm? What makes a story that I want to tell? I guess I'll answer maybe that question is a story that is sort of larger, sort of larger than the sum of its parts. Um. For for some reason, I'm drawn to every day seems. I've done a lot of adventure travel. I love that, and and still still do remote places and and sort

of out of the way spots. But man, I'm I'm drawn moments when you're when you're water, and small happens that you realize is just the point of it all. Um. And I think folks have noticed that I've had great reaction from readers. Who's who's responded positively to these these small moments that just stick with you. Um. So, how how the every day sort of resonates and amplifies every day in terms of, you know, an ordinary hunt, an ordinary sit in a tree stand, what makes what makes

it so extraordinary? Beyond beyond just the privilege of being

of being able, being able to do that. I remember I wrote this piece, I called it Planet Tree Stand, and it all turned on a moment when my daughter was sitting with me and the tree stand and she and she later head on my shoulder, and I thought, oh my god, you know we're here physically removed, and this moment of connection with this little eight or nine year old girl and everything that was going on around that, from bonding with your child, from introducing them to the outdoors.

I don't know. I don't know if I look for those moments more, but they just I just know when it happens, um And that's that's what I like to write about. If you've been, if you go, if you travel with me much at all, you will you will see these times happened when I just check out and I grab a pin or at a pad and sit down on a rock, or about the about the streamer on the cool seat and the skiff, and and I'm just writing. I'm just writing curiously because it's just I

know that this is of that's happened. That's that's fascinating. I was curious if you could recognize those moments in real time or if it was only later when you sit back down at your desk and you think back over your last week, that all of a sudden you recognize these moments of of universal experience or something. So so it's interesting to here you can think you're kind of tuned into it even in the moment. Yeah, I think it does happen in the moment now I am.

I am very, very fortunate to write for magazines that are committed to good writing and pay for good writing. So on the back end of that, you know, a week or two or three months later, you know, if it takes me it takes me six hours to craft the paragraph, I feel like I can do it. And so that's a that's a rare thing, and that's a blessing. And I'll called my editors and bosses for good in me that for giving me that space. But it does

frequently happen in the moment. I've traveled a lot with my son, particularly Jock and and and he knows uh, and he'll steel sort of tell people just you know, writer, just just this way even mind, Yeah, yeah, you know. And I had a pallet buddy Scott would and we all over the place, Alaska and Labrador and back in these long to do trips, and even he knew, Um, I'd always have to paddle because at any moment, white water, what are you mean, I might put the paddle down

and start to scribling. So it's fun to see it. It's fun to see it happen. Yeah, that's the That's the great thing about being a writer is that every moment in life has the potential to be a story, at potential to be material. Uh. It just seems to be a matter of having your eyes open to it. At least That's something I've kind of learned as I've gotten deeper into this. Is is just trying to maintain a sense of awareness about everything going on around you,

because there's there's material there if you're open to it. Um. But speaking of speaking of stories, before I go too far down this whole rabbit hole of of writing and storytelling, which I'm personally fascinating, I do want to I want to shift towards the main reason why I want to chat with you, Eddie, and and we talked about this earlier.

It's this idea of of how to live a life in which you not only enjoy the natural world as a hunter or angler, but but how do you live a life in which you can reciprocate that enjoyment in a way. And and I read a story of yours the other day, and I wanted to read an excerpt from that story and then kind of get your thoughts on this, because I think it nicely ties into what I want to get at here. Uh, this story of yours.

I think this is in your new book, The Last Wild Road, which is a collection of your your stories and essays over the years, which is tremendous. Um you were talking about this invitation you got from a friend to go fish the best cutthroat stream in America, and your friend took you there. He swore you to secrecy, and he ended up having a fishing trip that lived up to the hype. At the end of the stories You're hiking out, I think you described this. You said,

I tried to parse my sense of near euphoria. It wasn't that I caught the largest cutthroat I've ever seen. Wasn't that I proved myself tough enough to get into a rough place and fish well and get back out again, even if I limped that last mile to the truck. It was that my friend found me worthy of his

spot and trustworthy of his secret. He was willing to take the chance and take me the there, and know that I would walk out and speak little of the details of that valley and bury the memory of the trail deep, and burn the shovel, forget the photos and the fish tails. He knew I'd never forget what was most worth remembering that a place like that still exists, the fact that those places still exist today, Eddie, What does that? What does that mean to you? How much

does that matter? Well, you know, I remember, I remember that very very well. You know. It's all the difference, all the difference, Mark, And I'm going to circle by in a moment to what we were talking about earlier, about the more mundane aspects more every day, because a lot of what really matters is how we respond to a place, you know, whether it's your back forty or whether it's the Buna beyond as this as this place was.

But what what matters I think looking looking at it thirty five years of rioting and working in conservation is that these places they're not there by accidents. They're not still untrammeled places by by accident. There was, it was thought there was a cost um. Society was willing to bear that cost at great, at great cost, a Great Smoking Mountains National Park, which is earned some fabulous book

trout fishing. There they were. There were hundreds and hundreds of people who were forcibly moved from those mountains to create that national park that we that we just think was just always there and whild and I have I have interviewed old old women who remember their mother's I mean the front ports rails of their little shots in the Smokies as the sheriffs were literally pulling them off of their porches to evict them so we could have this wild place. No, I'm not saying we should we

should do that. I'm not saying it was like. I'm not saying it was wrong. I'm just saying that America has shown itself capable of great sacrifice for wild places and now we want them at no cost, at no inconvenience to anyone. But we don't we don't realize what it took to to set the aside, to set aside these places. And so when I go to a place like that stream, um, when I hear other people who go to places that are just still so wild, the first thing that comes to my mind was we all

we all paid for that. America paid for that, Society paid for that. And what are we willing What are we willing to do? Now? You know, what are we what costs are we willing to bear? No matter what that cost looks like, whether it's more toxes, whether it's funding, whether it's a social cost, what are we willing to do to keep these places wild? Because they all came initially at got a cost. Yeah, yeah, I like uh,

I like the point I heard you make. Well, you made a you made a point just now about it's it's not necessarily how wild the places, but more how the place, however far it is off the pavement, impacts you. And and I've heard you in the past talk about how, you know, how we might go about defining back country

in different ways. While somebody in Montana might define their back countries eight miles off the road, someone maybe in you know, urban Michigan, closer to where I live, might be eight paddle strokes down the river, and they had that that feeling, that sense of being away from it all, and how each of those things is awfully valuable in its own way. Um, But but I agree with you that it is. It's it's vital that we still have

those wild places in whatever form we need them. But I'm curious you haven't been around this now for decades, Eddie, and paying attention to these places, and and the costs that were required to have these places. How confident are are you given what we've seen in recent years, given the trajectory we might be able to forecast looking into the future, how confident are you that we'll still have places like that for let's say you're potential grandkids someday.

I mean, I'm starting to think about that. I have two young children my own, and I'm looking at what are the will they still have? What opportunities will they still have? Will they still have that incredible secluded valley to hike into? Will they still have that river that's clean and accessible for them to paddle down? Someday? Um? How do you feel about what this world might look

like twenty years from now? For a year, kids and their families you know it's not it, yes, answer, I mean the answer is only if, only, only if generation and the next generations put their shoulders into the same traces that the earlier generations do, and only if we're willing to work work for that um and the challenges, the challenges are great, but they were you know, they

were great. They were great in the nineteen teams and twenties and thirties, you know, when the Southern appal actions were clear cut, where when you know every duck and shore bird coming down the Atlantic coast was imperil dat you sold in the market or put on a ladies hat. So we we've had giant, enormous landscape spilled challenges in the in the past, um, and we certainly have them

in the future. And I think looking at what's happened in the last five or ten years with an upswelling of the new voices of new energy, of new passion that are willing to willing to work wild places, ye willing to to write their legislators, willing to get out there and pick up trash and pick up the slack and fund organizations. You know you have to have you know, it's you have to be an optimist have to be.

You have to have that that feeling that there's there's positive movement, and I mean there is, there's there's great positive I'm a I'm a huge supporter and our North American board member by country Hunters and Anglers, and that's only one organization that is out there, uh stemming the stem in the rising tide against our poet lands and and pot wildlife. So I am uh, I am hopeful that the Daunting ask Um, because pessimism is gonna will just suck, will suck the gas the gas tank dry.

So we just we just can't be pessimistic. We have to be We have to be optimistic and looking at looking at the the new generation. And you're my kids are twenty two, my son's twenty crew, my daughter's twenty five, um, and they're great kids that they are involved alves and actors. I know, we hear a lot about gen X and gen Z and millennials and whatever, but man, my kids and there and their peers, they're they're not gonna sit

by left and left the world go to hell. Um. They're they're out there doing doing their part, and they've got tools that that we didn't have UM, so what do you think kids and my grandkids are going to have these are going to have these wild places? Maybe not as many, um, but I don't know. I hope that few of public lands that we're seeing now there's not a lot more land that can be domain, but I'm hopeful that we haven't seen the last wild places

UH put into put into public ownership. So you just can't you can't stop, You just can't mark, you can't give up, and you can't give up hope. So that that's where I that's where I am with it. But I do I do feel positive when I see the younger generation is coming up. They're smart, they're committed, they're passionate, um, and they're gonna they're gonna make an impact. Yeah, you know,

it's it's it's true. I agree with you. There's there's definitely this this swell of enthusiasm and and you starting to care about these things. And I don't know, kind of curious about where that where that comes from for people,

I mean for for myself. You know, I didn't have parents or anyone who was preaching to me the value of these places, or maybe they weren't preaching to me that I needed to take action, that I needed to be a conservationist, that I needed to care about environmental causes or or the or or public lands and access

to them, all that kind of stuff. But they did, They did instill in me this sense of respecting nature and respecting wildlife and taking care of those things we had, um, and and treating the world with with care and respect. So so I had that, but it wasn't for you know, many many years later of being a hunter and angler and kind of you know, consuming and taking and just wanting to you know, being out there being a fun hug.

I guess you could say. It took me till I was, you know, in my early twenties, and as I got deeper and deeper into hunting, I was discovering, you know, books like a Sand County Almanac, or reading some thing or uh, whatever it might be. I kind of had this the slow realization that if I was going to keep on enjoying these places and these these wildlife and and these experiences out there, that if I was going to take and take and take, I had better start

giving giving giving back. UM. But that took me a long time to get there. I'm just curious for you, Eddie, what does that look like for you? Did Can you recall when that shift happened for you? Or was it from day one that you were thinking about these things? Was there a moment, like a light switched moment where you all of a sudden started to look at this differently? What was that that story like for you? You know it was a it was an well to yours mark,

not on the same on the same track. I didn't grow up, you know, fishing family. I've told this story a number of times before. Um al there early on, I was actuated with hunting and fishing, and I've never even met a hunter. I've never even seen a gun. Um, But you know, read the magazines and fielding stream and sports and fields and out of the license. It wasn't until my and I wanted to hunt and fish so badly. I remember on a family trips and my family did camp.

Um my brother and I were laying in the back of the family's nineteen seventy three Ford Pinto station wagon. You didn't have to have seat ballots. You laid back there and you know, made jokes and pointed this and that, and I looked out and there was a We're driving through the country, done on interstate, driving through the country, and I and I saw three stand wearing am wearing a blaze orange vest, just a teeny little pinprip and

I I remember asking myself, well I ever hunt? I could see no pathway to that would would that ever be experience? I remember that clearly. And so when my father died and a friend from the church took me under his wing and introduced me to this world, what I recall, yes, belief that it had happened, utter disbelief that I was now a hunter. And I'll be honest, that level attitude and gratefulness and instead stilled us believe.

I still feel the day more when I look at aspects of my life, when I look at the career that I've had, it's this feeling of Holy prod, How how did this happen? So my approached the conservation from that feeling of gratitude UM and being so incredibly lucky to be here that I wanted to make sure I

did nothing to tarnish the heritage UM. And I was interested in history, and so I threw myself into the history of conservation, in the history of colonial nactural history in the United States, and so mine came from a different ways. It evolved into this generalize awareness of conservation movement and activism and advocacy and how we pull the levers of power in this country, But it was rooted in this just cannot freaking believe I get to do what I what I can do as a career, you know,

but as and every day hundred angry. Everybody should have that faith. Everybody should feel like, holy moly, I get to do this. You know, I'm not in the King's woods. I get to do this. And if you approach it from that perspective of gratitude, how could how could you? How could you not do anything? But I want to perpetuate that kind of wondering all for the next generation. Yeah, it's a pretty a pretty remarkable ah inheritance. I think that we have to enjoy here now and and that

that that idea of of wanting to perpetuate it. I think that is something that's shared by many many people these days. Um, but I think what is um, what's the common reaction to that once we once someone has this realization of source where they realize, oh, wow, this is this thing that it was very costly for us to to have, whether it be public lands or thriving

wildlife populations or clean rivers, whatever it might be. I think we I've seen and heard and talked to so many people that you know, get to whatever point in their life it is where they realize, oh wow, this is a privilege that we have, and they recognize that, and they realize that it requires work and care to maintain that. You get this very common next question, which is, well, what in the world can I do about it? How

do I how do I do something about it? I mean this, it's just never seems to be a question that's going to go away. We hear about some new crisis, we hear about the next problem, we hear about the the umpteenth example of something going down the tube, and you sit there and you worry about it, or you yea, you looked down at your feet and you yeah, you're bummed about it. But then you think to yourself, what could I possibly do to make a difference about it?

As it just a little old meat? Um, how did you how did you approach that early on in your life, when you when you first started diving into this history and learning about you know environmental activism and and the people that came before us. Earlier in your career, as you started exploring these questions and these obligations, maybe we could say, how did you try to tackle this at

that point in your life. I'm curious to kind of compare how your first steps might have been different than maybe what you are thinking and in actions are now, if if at all, Um, how did you first approach that? Man? That's a good one, um, I think initially right good that the first great act of change is do no harm. I don't know that I could have articulated it early on, but I do remember that early on in the law following the rules, will you agree with them or not? Was?

It was just importing me? And that was that was drilled into me by by my mentor Keith Gluesome. He he. I don't know that that Keith do as much as I did at one point about the history of conservation law and all that, But he knew that that limits that regulations and ethics. They were there for a reason.

He was a very disciplined human being and he he he did it still still that into me, and I kind of I was brought up in that excuse me the old school way of Remember the first time he asked me to go squirrel hunting, I thought, hot, Damn'm gonna I'm gonna just brain brain lad on these squirrels. And you know he nevery of course, he never let such a gun. You know, it was three or four weeks or but you know, we had to go through this process, you know, and wow, that was that was

That was a great, a great lesson. Um So doing no harm, I think, is the first thing we could do that and that means obeying every single game fish law. Where do you like or not? What do you agree with him or not? What do you think you're stupid or not. They're there for a reason, a scientific reason. But they're there for another reason, which is side rails on our behavior. So we know when we've stepped over the line. And so you know, I was, I was.

I called grief about this all my life. Not know I'm not shooting at the time, dove limits for til I'm not shooting. I'm not shooting. Third thing, I just I just wasn't gonna be. I have a good excuse. Now if I get caught, you get caught. If I get caught, this this. No, it's it's no good. But I'm not even tempted trespassing good. I mean, I'm playing. I was brought up a good, a good boy from

the South. I would not you know, when I went to North Dakota freelance duck hunting still and we still not bear to step on a piece of unposted land that we knew we had legal access to without asking about our conformation. We just couldn't bring umself. We couldn't bring ourselves to do it. Uh. And so I think that's part of it, Mark, is we all have to we have to do no harm. We have to we have to make sure that nobody ever says, I, yeah, you know he's that that that guy he jack lights tonight.

We know that that that would undo every every positive thing you did. I say, that's the that's the starting point. But we've we've got to have these new hunters coming in our fold. Was just fabulous. It's even a morning coming upon us to set that good example because they don't know, you know, they don't they don't know why you have to plug your shot done for three shots

when you're hunting my tweed birds. Um, they don't know what the Pittman robertson active is and why that is so critical to the nature, to the country's environmental infrastructure. UM And So I think it's not incumbent on all of us to be to be those kinds of teachers and mentors and good examples. UM And I think if you're not willing to do that be in this game. I think we've gotten to that point. If you're not willing to be a positive influence, you don't need to

be in this game. All H agree with that. Uh. And it comes back to um And it's something that I've brought up a couple of times recently. I read this book a few weeks ago or a month or so now ago, called Braiding Sweet Grass, and the author was speaking of this, UM, this idea, this philosophy of of reciprocity with the natural world, UH that had come from her background as a as a Native American, and this idea of of giving back, of of if we're going to take something, we need to give back an

equal and UH. And I feel like that's that's a perfect example of what you're talking about. UM and and something that I just think about a whole lot more now than I ever used to and and maybe it's just because I have been able to enjoy so many more of these things as I as I learn more and explore more and now having kids and thinking about

all that too. Um. But I I guess that next thought then is if if the starting point is being you know, doing no harm yourself, doing the right things, um, following the law, and then next is helping other people, mentoring other people, being a good example for other people, helping educate folks, um, helping other people experience these special places, um. And you've been doing that for years and years and years.

Now what's that? What's the graduate level work now that you are that you've experienced now over the years now having been within this world and caring about these things for a long time. Now, what's what's it look like to be a hunter and angler and conservationist in real life?

And additionally just described, I mean, what what kinds of things over the course of a year, Eddie do you do that are inspired by this this uh, this this this care and cause that you now seemingly have a life for al drum I'm I don't want to count b h A too much here more, but that's that's where a lot of my lot of my time and effort and sort of psychic energy go right now. UM, because I do think that I do think that Drew uh has his finger on the on the pulse or

something that's super important and super timely. UM. So I think I think the answer is going to differ for different different people. I was I was in Louisiana Little Buddies of mine a couple of months ago, fly fishing for for big bull drum and marshes, and I was going I was going to I was gonna skiff a friend who has done pretty well, UM, got some resources, and he asked me, he said, I write, you know, a twenty five dollar check, two fifteen organizations, some of

them are right a hunderd dollars. That that was his involvement, and he his question was similar to your. He asked me, said, is that is that what I should be doing? Is that a useful way of spending my tie back to the conservation world? And my response to him was absolutely, that's a that's a great way to to to be involved.

I said, but you know, you may want to think about one or two groups that really took off the boxes for you that are really close to your heart and maybe able to think about having a larger impact there, drive that area deeper. Um and you know, and that was the That was the end of the conversation. And then four or five days later he sent me a copy of his life membership to b h A. No, I'm not I'm not saying this to underscore b h A. I'm saying it's to underscore how one person was thoughtful

and intentional and took the next step. Not not that everybody wants to be a life member of an organization can afford to be a life merban organization. But these days, man, you can't swing a cat without hitting her an opportunity to go picked up trash and wildlife management area, or you go clean out a boat ramp, or uh go

work on a TU project or store a stream. So you know, there's really no there's no excuse anymore for not being able to to get involved either at the hands get your fingernails dirty level or more of what I do, which is sort of working on policy and working on larger national issues with with b h A. M writing about wetlands conservation for conduction limited. So I think I think it's a great time to be alive,

to speak in that vein. I mean you you could spend you can spend every waking hour volunteering for a valuable conservation projects in the hunting and fishing sphere. So we're very very fortun in that regard. What's that been like for you, Eddie since since getting more involved with b h A and of course be on the board. I'm sure there's a lot of people who have who have thought to themselves, So I wonder if I should, you know, take a larger role with an organization that

I'm a member of. Maybe I could be a chapter leader, or be the secretary on my state board, or get involved with in this kind of leadership position or that leadership position, or or any kind of next level like that. How how has that been for you? How has that impacted how you look at these things and and your your impact. Yeah, well I'm secretary of the Median Board of Bretons for North American h A. So as far as being secretary of local chapter, I would say noted,

duly noted. But you know it's people will tell you it's just a lot of fun, you know, you know, these though these groups are rod and gun clubs of you know, these are the groups where you meet tribe, where you meet like minded folks and you start off working on a conservation issue or or or a landscape that needs restoration repair, but you end up just making great friends. Um. He said. I would encourage anybody to look up to look to it for that. But you know,

I think we all have something specific table. Um. Queen land Tawny asked me to join the h A board. What's been almost seven years ago. I was. I believe I was the first. I'm pretty sure I was the first from east, from the eastern United States. And I had worked with Land before the National Acceperation on some sporting out reach and it was intentional on his point, it was intentional for me to to to see that there was a role I could play in bringing a

different perspective to that to that quickly growing group. Um. And so that that was that was my strength. You know, my strength is is not fundraising. Uh. You know, I'm an English major, So my strength is not anything to do with having a hammer in my hand. Um, but asking yourselves, you know, what what can you what can you bring the cable? Maybe it's a strong back, and we need a lot of strong bokes. And maybe it's a strong mind and we need a lot of strong minds.

What what would just need more people on the strain. The more people on the strain, the better. What what have you? What have you found? You know, as you've gotten, as you've you've mentioned you've made a great point how this is the opportunity to kind of engage and find your tribe right, It's it's not just work. It's all so fun, but it gets you around like minded people, people that UM, people that care about the same things

you care about. What have you learned from those people inside your tribe that you've now gotten more engaged with through b h A in your example, UM, it could be any other organization for someone else. But what's that been like for you? Have your eyes been open to anything? Have you been inspired by these people in some new ways? There is there anything that now years later you've discovered that you didn't know or hadn't experienced before taking that

next step. I had no idea mark how many people we're willing to work so hard for this, I mean work so hard for this. We we started the North Carolina State Chapter b h A on my back deck at my house, and it was six of us. None of us knew anybody else. In degree we were totally each other. Not a single relationship existed. And to see that Greek, the tens of ours, the hundreds of ours, each one of them has put in to that state chapter.

And again, this isn't about b h A. This is about a willingness to put your shoulder to the work. I have been honest at the level of commitment. And this goes back to our earlier conversation about where my optimism comes from. I mean, it doesn't come from politicians and policy. It comes from people who are willing to do the work, man who have heard the trumpet call.

And I mean I've been involved in this, involved in this all my life practically, and I did not have I did not realize how how deep those passions ran, how much people were willing to put on the line. Um. I followed a group in Florida called Captains for Clean Waters, which is started by two captains, Chris Women and Daniel Andrews,

who were nearly lost their will. The pretty much lost their their livelihoods for two years and some of the worst algebrings down there for and to see what that group has been able to do when they went all in, all in for wildlife, wild places and hunting and fishing. It's that's what's that's what's been inspiring that. That's why I do and it is I choose to be optimistic. I could choose to be testimist market where were that?

What would that do? That would do nothing? So it is a choice, and I choose to be optimistic, and I choose remain involved, and I choose to working. And honestly I am And people who know me well would say I don't say this very often, don't really mean it when I do say it, but I mean it this time. I am humbled by aunt of work that other people do, the amount of time and endwors what

I I mean. I could give you a list of many men and women in North Carolina you ought to be talked to the other than other kid with Nick smith Man. It is that still to inspire to see it. That's why I'm optimistic. Yeah, I love that. So, Uh, here's something I'm wondering about. I think a lot of people wonder about because there are a lot of other folks like you mentioned who are willing to do the work, who are willing to sweat, bleed whatever it has to

be done to make a difference. A lot of people, though, are pulled in a lot of different directions, many many different obligations, uh many many different folks emailing them or texting them or posting on Facebook saying help this cause,

help this cause, help this cause. Right, Um. I think one of the things, one thing I worry about a lot these days is people just becoming fatigued by all the different issues they're being pummeled with over the head and told do this, do this, help us, help us, and and many many many of those are great, great causes, things that really do need help. But I worry people will become overwhelmed or just shut off because they are,

you know, just flooded with it. Um. What I'm what I'm getting at, though, is what I'm curious about, is I think many people wonder how can they best utilize their time, like what's the most what's the highest r o I on their efforts? And given your vantage point being involved at the national level of b h A, I'm sure you've you and the team there have spent a lot of time looking at and considering and looking at the data around. Okay, what's the action that makes

that makes the most difference. What's the thing that really really you know, dials up the pressure on a on a congressman or a woman or something like that. I mean, when you when you look at that whatever review you guys have been able to do over the years, is there anything that has stood out to you and the rest of the board as far as the impact that you know, tweets versus phone calls, versus letters, versus showing

up in person versus any other thing like that. Have you guys found something or some series of actions that are the most impactful when it comes to that kind of UH participation. What we've found is that engagement matters UM personally priving to me and we have a dh A been about trenching this data, figure out which levers were the best and win. And I've been even surprised at how much phone calls and emails and personal communications to legislators matter. UM. That's been that's been a that's

been a big surprise. UM. I think hunters and anglers, particularly UH get frustrated dealing with state agencies at the game and fish level. Um, when they go to public hearings about regulations, UM and And I understand that, UM, But we can't let that frustration make us sit on our hands. Any engagement is better than no engagement. But being strategic about and being very personal when you contact your legislators, UM and representatives is important and it and

it makes it makes a difference, absolutely makes a difference. UM. But man, there's no personal doubt. I mean that that is frustrating. You know, to send something off into the ether and think your senator is gonna be sitting there with his or her feet up our desk and read and it's going to change her mind. I don't know that it works that way, but that public and that

public input works. And I think the other thing that we're finding out with with b h A analyzing this data and looking strategically at what works in the landscape is to actually start thinking bigger and broader. We're experiencing this in North Carolina where we have been dealing with this trickle of losing access to public trout waters in

the mountains. And it's nothing catastrophic every year, but it's you know, it's a quarter mile here, mark, it's access there to boat rent there and and and we've been trying to figure out how do we how do we stop that we turn that around? And we've been we've been looking at the at the micro level of this boat ramp or this landing and what what we can do um and we're starting to realize that we need to we need to move to the forest service level.

We need to we need to be advocating in Atlanta at the regional office as much as we're advocating in Asheville, North Carolina at the at the at the that the smaller office too. I think we're starting to get more politically savvy. We're starting to get more plugged into how to make how to make a difference. But the most important thing is just to get off your hands and not sit on them, and and and be involved. And

we all have our strengths. You know, I'm pretty good at writing letters, might not be so great at that at other things, but just be involved. I Mean it sounds so trite and so simple, but I see what happens. I've seen it in North Carolina students across the country. I've seen with b h A, I've seen with Duckston Linnen seen to you. Once you put your footing the road of working for wildlife, man, it's not list not

long before you run in the full sprint. Yeah, it's easy to do that when you have such a such an awesome thing to be fighting for something we love so much. Um, that's that's one thing we've really got going for. There's a whole lot of different political causes and things out there that people get fired up about, but I can't think of many others that are so darn rewarding just to be a part of it that

we love so much. I don't know anyone who really, really really loves I don't know healthcare, but I know there's a whole lot of us that absolutely love sitting in a tree and watching a white tail go by, or standing in the river and watching a trout sipping on a mayfly. Um. That that's pretty darn motivating to get out there and try to make sure you can keep doing those things. But man, people and people want

it so badly. Marked man. I was speaking at an event um South Carolina, the Southeastern Wide Exhibition a few weeks ago, and at the end of at the end of the talk, you walks up and engine line you know at the end, which his turn to chat, and he's just like, he's never hunted, he's never fished. He wants it so bad. He has no clue and no one in his life. The spellers here in his late twenties, you know, had disposable income, educated, articulate, no way to

get into it. So I hooked him up with a with a local chapter of h A down and down the southeast. But there's when you see someone like that who wants what you have, who wants to experience what you can experience in the back country, or you know, just on the local farm park. They want it so bad. We we've got to get a way to to see those people, to get them, to get them inside of

the circle. You know, this is a little of a left turn here, Eddie, But you bring up this fact that there are so many people out there who are interested in getting involved in this space that we occupy

and that we've been able to enjoy over the years. Um, but there's a little bit of a m I'm sure you've you've seen it, you've heard you've you've heard people talk about this or seeing the articles over the last year, so especially since COVID just this significant influx of users on our public lands, and some folks saying, hey, you know, forget this whole hunter recruitment thing. There's too many people out there as it is. Or there's folks bemoaning changing.

You know, out of state tag lotteries and stuff, and out of staters are flooding our states. So you know, Wyoming's cutting down on their you know, non resident tags, and Idaho is doing this and so on and so forth. All these is pointing to, you know, there's there's too many people. Let's stop trying to bring folks into the fold. Uh. What's your response to that sentiment that seems to be popping up here and there now, maybe more so than it was in recent years. Man, it's real. It's as

real as earlier day. I was trying to find a camp site its National Park this summer, which is a joke. Laughter, there's no way. Um, it's a and it's something. So it's something that affects us all. Uh. Oh, man, it is a tough one. Do we really need more duck hunters on Jordan's Lake and the Piedmont in North Carolina? No, the ducks don't need it either. Um, but the reality

is I don't know that we can turn this way. UM. It seems to me that the that the enormous surge during COVID that was driven by and the need for folks to get outdoors, that that I don't think was driven by the R three movement and the proactive ways that the hang and fishing industry has gone about uh its outreach graay games. So whether those folks decide maybe the back country is not in the place for them

or not, I don't know. I think right now we need to sort of hold our breath and hold our tongues maybe, um, until we can figure out how to manage this this surge because I don't think anybody nobody saw it coming, and and I think we're having as an industry or or as a as a body of of public land users. Um, there's there's a little bit of shock to the system right now, I think. And it's not just in the West, it's in the East,

and I mean it's everywhere. UM, So we're gonna have to figure out the future may very well look different from the past on some famous western trout rivers. That may look different than the past on southeastern coastal waterfowl, marshes um. But bringing educated uh and I don't mean school educated, but bringing in folks and educating them on the history of conservation, role of heating and fishermen, the American wallet movement. That's that's got to be a part

of the solution. It's got to be a part of the solution. Now, I I follow your logic on that, but there might be some people who own't who don't see or maybe who haven't heard the explanation for why that's important. Can you just run us through simply, but why it is a good thing. Why we could use some more folks as a part of this community that understand what's going on, that participate in your mind, what's what's in it for us to to advocate for more

of that? Well, wildlife public lands need instituency. They need people who are going to speak up for public lands and public wildlife and not just public but for private lands, for private wildlife initiatives. I mean, that's the that's the argument, right, that's the only argument. Of course, I want people to get to get to all and the wonder that I get from the outdoors. I mean, I want everybody want here is nothing not to feel that way. But look, I get I get this at the crowds. I get

those issues. It's a it's a tough it's a tough place to be, um. But they're they're here now order that we turned them into people who do no harm and and and we turned them into outdoor users who are proactive and protecting the landscapes. Um. And if we if we say, you know, no, you would put up these barriers and skinses and saying you know, sorry, we're closing the barn door. Um, We're gonna turn these I mean, we risk turning these folks against the very values that

we that we hold deer. But it's I mean, it's a tight right. I'm not gonna say it does suck. Um, I mean it does. And it's a it's a tough situation. And that's why I would just counsel what in your tongue and taken a step back, and let's see how all this looks in a couple of years. It may look very different. Yeah yeah not but it may it may not. Um, but we're not going to have fewer fewer people in the outdoors, There's there's no question. But you know what, what are we gonna what are we

gonna do about western trout fishing? What we gonna do about the difft boat hatches on these rivers? I mean, these are these are serious, These are serious issues, and we're all and a lot of us, myself included. You know, we've we've had a long span of time where things were fairly static, and we've had more and more people in the outdoors. It's been going certainly in the in the in the trout fishing worlds. Um, but I'm not sure those are gonna be Are you gonna be back?

So we're gonna have to figure it out and it might and it might be more regulations were permitted days. Um. Yeah, So that's only one of the challenges. We can talk climate change and whether patterns and urbanization, but we need to often answer your question, we need to take the breath, um, and see where the numbers fall in a year or

two before we really make any decisions. So crowding of our wild places, whether it be public lands or even you know here in Michigan, all my buddies are constantly talking about how it's harder to get access to private land because the stuff they used to have knock on the door, permission you know now is leased up or five other guys hunted or whatever. So if it's overcrowding or access or you mentioned you know a series of other things there. Um, what is it that keeps you

up at night looking forward? What concerns you? What issue or threat coming down the pipeline? Um is most concerning to you when you look into the future as far as impacts on wildlife and wild places and the ability to hunting fish. I I think more there's gonna be a lot of folks that don't agree with me on this. The pressures of development and industrialization are so great that whatever is not fine okay held by the public um is going to be a greater gay risk. So I'm

an advocate for more public lands. I'm an advocate for increasing acres, increasing I mean, that's that's part of the solution to more and more people. So what what concerns me greatly as the the best your public lands, um, whether it's in the west or whether it's in the east. Uh, that's a that is a that's a huge concern. Um. If we had more where more people could room more freely. It's it's just a win win on a number of

on a number of categories. And this takes us back to that conversation of what what are we as an American society willing to sacrifice? What are we literally willing to pay two increase the storeholder natural treasures that we have. So that's part of the solution. That's maybe the time sky mark, but that's one thing that I that I see the climate change. I spent a lot of time

on the coast, and that's that's frightful as well. Um, but just having enough, having enough, why in the room appreciating that, That's to me, that's the That's one of the bigger issues and just one of the issues that I think we can we can make some moves on. Yeah, well that that simple idea of simply protecting more habitat

addresses a lot of the impacts of all the other things. Right, if if we're talking climate change and warming waters, or animals needing to change, you know, need to migrate to different areas well, having more land protected solves that. If we're talking about overcrowding, well, having more land solves that. U if we're talking about impacts of over harvest or over fishing or industrialization or anything like that. Well, more

protected space helps with that, UM. But how I think the question is like how it sounds pretty darn good. I mean, people talk about the the recent thirty by thirty UH ideas and proposals, right, trying to conserve of our land by the year sounds great and principle. I love the idea of it, um, but how do we actually get there? Are you aware of any actual ideas or proposals or initiatives that people like us can get

involved with to help make something like that happen. Well, those are big policy issues that are gonna be driven at the higher levels. But but we do see some positive movement in that, you know, with the RAVA, with the covering Americans. While I laugh with um land ward conservation fund issues, we see people willing to step out on this on this funding side. UM. So again asked what kept me up at night? And that's what kept

me up at night. Um, I'm not sure that I know the solutions to to that, other than to keep to keep chipping away at it um and and then goes back to the do no harm. Every acre we we lost lose the is two acres we have to gain just to take half a step forward. So protecting what we have is the first, the first step of that. But there've been there've been opportunities, certainly on the state level, h in various states where there have been some increases

in public layers acquisitions. So working to identify those getting involved in groups that are that are working to advocate for those would be would be the first step. And it's a it's a it's a dulting it's a dulting task. But there's so much that we can do that's not dualting. There's so many you know, we can get involved in so many other levels, uh, and feel like we're making a difference. Yeah, yeah, you know this, Um it makes me think of a piece I read of yours you

were writing, might have been earlier this year. Last year you were writing about the recent die off of manatees in Florida, which is just astounding. I think I saw recently that now it's a quarter of all manities. And correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I think of all the manities in Florida died over the last twelve months. Yeah, within a space of a year. Just shocking. And then and there's there's examples kind of like that all across the world, seemingly every day of something different

like that that's happening. It's it can be if you allow yourself to become negative and to get depressed, it really can take you there pretty quickly. Um, so you were, you were writing about this, and you're you're trying to process all that. And I want to quote another thing

you wrote here because I found it pretty powerful. Uh. You wrote this, you said, speaking of Florida, what truly afflicts this incredible state is what afflicts us all the twenty one century version of apathy, our click through mentality, our tendency to breeze by and scroll through the ails of our time. I don't know how to heal Florida, but there are things I can do join engage right lament. Uh that really resonated with me, and I gotta believe

it resonates with a whole lot of other people. Um what what else would you add when it comes to battling this temptation of apathy to just scroll through and doom, scroll through Instagram or Facebook and shake your head and say, God, this is the world's going to hell in a handbasket and then flip back on Netflix and keep watching the next episode of the Office. Uh what what would you leave us with when it comes to avoiding that temptation

and doing something different? Three easy words, Martin, Right, this is you off the most? What impacts you the most? If every hunter anger across the country, in every region, every habitat type answered that question for themselves and picked their fight and put their passion, in their time and their resources into that one fight, it would it would turn in the time, it would eliminate and inoculate all of us if we pick the one fight. Wise words, Well, Eddie,

I plan on trying to do just that. I appreciate everything you've shared, you know, over the years, and your articles and taking the time here chat with me about about all this. It's um it's encouraging to to be able to look to someone like you as a model for for what we can all do in our own lives. And uh, man, I just I appreciate it, can you? Well? These are these are overly kind words, Mark, and I appreciate you doing all that you have to bring these

issues to to the forefront. Well, thank you, thank you for that as well. I gotta give you an opportunity though here Eddie, to tell folks about your book which came out. I guess it was last fall. Maybe, UM, can you tell folks a little bit more about this book that I've I've quoted a couple of times here now and I've been reading it. I've read your articles over the years that many of them are featured in here. I've picked up new ones now since I'm reading the

physical copy. But tell us a little bit more about The Last Wild Road and where folks can can pick this up and and dive further into these experiences that have that have formed you and inspired this this land ethic that you have. Yeah, thanks for Thanks for the opportunity. The Last World Road came out in May, published by Lions Press, and it's a collection of five stories that I've published in Field and Stream over the last eighteen

years or so. About half of those pieces are my short columns column that that runs in every issue for the magazine for the last twelve years. List the content or long or long features. Um. Colin Kearns, the editor chief of Field the Stream, and I worked worked really hard.

We're very very proud that book. Um. There's a lot of really personal stories in there, a lot of adventure stories, but some of the pieces that you quoted, Mark, are you know, examples of those moments where I've just been sort of all struck by my place in this in this industry, by the experiences I've had. But a lot of the stuff is back forty far off the highway, places and experiences that that a lot of hunters and anglers have. It just give them given a lot of fuel.

So it's available on Amazon. It's that I've seen any bookstores all over the place, So yeah, I have a coffee and take their read Last Wild. It's good stuff. I highly recommend it to anyone listening if you if you need to escape from the drudgery of the office or your cold winter backyard, or wherever it is is ailing you right now, this is a great way to to get out there and hunting fish through the page. And uh, you do a great job of transport. It's

all there. So I hope there's I hope there's future books in your future, Eddie, because I've really enjoyed this. Yeah, I think there will be. Thanks, thanks very much for the kind of words, and with that, Eddie, I will shut this down and let you get back to whatever fun outdoor activities you've got coming down inline for yourself. Yeah. Man, well I appreciate it very much. So alright, so there you have it. As I mentioned already, be sure to pick up a copy of Eddie's book, The Last Wild Road.

I mean, it's it's it's great. And then from there, man, let's get to work. Let's work to do no harm. Let's try to reduce our waste. Let's consume a little bit less. Let's be a good example. Let's mentor others. Let's teach our friends and family about the outdoors. Let's get involved with some local conservation organizations. And then let's also try to be active with national issues and legislation. Let's write letters and make the phone calls when we're

called upon to do so. Let's try to give back to these wild places and animals that have given us so much. Every little step, every action, each decision we make to try and do the right thing. It matters. At least, That's what I'm telling myself, and I'm gonna stick to it. So I hope you will too. I hope you will continue on this journey with me. I appreciate you so until next time thank you, get outside and stay wired to hunt.