Ep. 515: 2022 State of the Whitetail Union With Kip Adams

brought to you by First Light. Today we are beginning, I guess what you can loosely call conservation Month here on the Wired Hunt podcast, starting this week and over the next three four five weeks, maybe I want to explore a series of different ideas and topics where related to how we have this awesome thing we call deer hunting. How it is that we have deer and wild places to chase him, and the good fortune to enjoy this

lifestyle that we love so much. I want to, you know, take a little time here in the off season to talk about those things, to talk about how we got here, to talk about what we need to do now to make sure we can keep having these great things. So that's the game plan. It's gonna be interesting. I'm excited about it, and starts today with Kip Adams. Most of

you probably know Kip. Kip is the chief Conservation Officer for the National Deer Association and he's a part of an annual project in which the NBA puts together their Deer Report, their White Tail Report they've been doing for years now, in which they break down all sorts of different trends as far as deer harvest, as far as different things going on with regulations, with participation, UH, basically getting a census of what's happening in the world of

deer hunting across the country over the past year. So they just released their version of this and today we're gonna take a little bit of time to walk through some of the key findings here. How things are going as far as deer harvest, as far as the deer age structure, as far as you know, different trends related to how we as hunters are doing and how the herd is doing across the country. We get some updates

and where things stand with disease. We break down different upcoming legislation that will be important for deer and deer hunters, talk a little bit about you know, kIPS overall feelings on how we are doing in the world of white tails now compared to where we were ten years ago

or twenty years ago. We explore where he sees things headed, what's keeping him up at night, what's got him excited, and what are the things that we all as deer hunters on the ground, need to be doing this year to make sure we've got great deer hunting in the future. So this is a pretty quick one that I think is important for all of us to just get a general sense of what's happening, what do I need to pay attention to, and what can I do. That's our

game plan for today. That's our mission, I think is deer hunters right. We have to go out there and enjoy this incredible fun activity. We get to harvest deer. We put deer in the freezer and antlers on the wall. But if we're gonna take stuff from the land, we got to give something back. And this is the first step in learning how exactly to do that by making sure we are informed on what the hell is going on.

So that's the plan for today. Appreciate you listening, Thanks for being here and i'd say, now, let's just get to chat with Kip here we go. All right, I've got Kip Adams with me here now again on the show. Kip, thank you so much for making a return appearance. Absolutely, Mark, always good to talk with you. I feel like you may be one of the very most visited guests I've

had on the show over the years. I mean, we've done at least one every year, if not multiple some years, and we're approaching, gosh, approaching not quite there, but almost ten years of the show. So jeez, I appreciate you having patience to keep on coming on here and talking with me. Well, I'm honored, and how I'm glad that I at least have something that's I guess a little interesting to say that you keep invite me back and you always given how many we've done, I guess that

that that's starting to date both of us. I guess, yeah, that's true. We've we've been around a while, and uh, I don't know how that happened, Like like we were just talking about before we started recording. It's it's crazy how fast stuff goes. I uh, it's kind of bizarre. Looking over the last ten fifteen years, and seeing seeing everything that's happened. But I'm glad we're here still. Yeah, me too. A lot of a lot of good stuff. So and I always enjoyed talking with you, so well,

we got good stuff to talk about today. Yeah, I'm I'm excited to dig in here because, as we've done every year, right around this time of year, I wanted to kind of have you help us get a sense of, I guess, a pulse on the white tail nation. You know, how things are going across the country when it comes to white tails, How are we as hunters positioned moving into the future. What are the things we need to

be thinking about in the future. You know, you guys at the National Deer Association have done such a good job of um not only educating folks and advocating for folks, but really keeping us up to date on on what's happening and what's important and what we need to be focusing on. So that's kind of what I'm hoping we can do here again, Kip. And you've got the new white Tail Report that you guys put out every year that's out now, right, And I guess what I would

be curious to start with is the same question. We actually started with the last year. You probably don't remember this, but um, if you were to take a step back and look at the general state of affairs for white tailed deer and deer hunters across the country right now, and if you could write that from a scale of one to ten, one being we're on a deep pit of a spare and ten being we are flying high times there as good as ever been. Where would you

say we where are we coming on that scoreboard? We're we're about an eight and uh, and there's some really positive things mark that that would likely have that a little bit higher, but that that don't c w d that there continues to plague us UH is going to pull us down a little bit. But man, there's a lot of positive things going on. So at least a seven for sure, and I think closer to and eight. I like it. Now. You talked about the fact that you and I are dating ourselves, and we've been around

for quite a while doing this. How would you how would you say we sit compared to let's say, ten years ago, when you and I were having conversations back when I was still in my old day job, sitting in the office all day Um, how would you say things stand now so versus the majority of things in the dear world today are far better than they were a decade ago, um, c w D being the one

big exception to that. But overall we have we have some really healthy deer hurts from an age structure standpoint, you know, we have some some great harvest from both of the buck and the a On the side, we have more habitat weren't going on than ever before. We have more hunters that are engaged than ever before. So most of what's going on in the deer world is really really good and continues to improve decade over decade.

That that whole c w D thing is pulling us back some and I'm sure we'll address that at some point here. But other than that, Uh, yeah, we we've moved forward in the past decade. And that's a testament to America's deer hunters and in our state will life agencies. So then let's look the other direction. If you were to read the tea leaves and look, you know, we know what's happened over the last ten years. We know

where we are right now. UM. Knowing the things that you know in the various conservation legislation late legis relative issues you're part of and seeing the trajectory of our culture and habitat and wildlife populations, how good do you feel about ten years from now? So how do you think things are gonna look in I think that we're going to be way better relative to the disease game

than we are today. Um. I think there's some federal legislation, UH that we've been working with that's going to provide a bunch of relief for state wilife agencies to help provide more funds to battle c w D. UM that the trend relative to people wanting to enhance habitat for dear another wildlife continues to increase. So I think that's

going to play out very well for us. And of course there's so much good research going on around the country right now about deer that uh it's positioning state wildlife agencies very well that to have the tools that they need to continue to implement wise hunting seasons and

enhance health of deer hurts. So M I think that we are We're poised, you know, for the next decade UM, partly because of hunter engagement, but also partly because of programs mark that are looking at and increasing the knowledge around the value of deer um. This year's Southeast Your Study group is a perfect example. You know, we're hosting this and the theme is the value of deer and deer hunting to the American public um. Only about four

percent of the US population buy the hunting license. And what we see today is that while hunters fund the lion's share of wildlife management and all of our programs, you know, it's going to take more than just hunters to continue to keep wildlife healthy. UM. So as we start showing more of the impacts and in the value of deer and deer hunters to all society at large. And you have done a great job of this, you know, with your work and just making people realize how important

deer are. As that continues to grow, I think it just paints a better picture for the future of dear, dear management and then a ball the waller species a dear impact. So so I see the next ten years as an exciting time for for managers and sportsmen and women, and I'm looking forward to it. I'm glad to hear it. I'm glad to hear that that that you're feeling good about where we're headed. Um I can see a lot of those same things, and that's that's exciting. That's that's

I remember. I don't know what year this was, maybe two thousand and thirteen, so almost ten years ago, twous thirteen fourteen. Somewhere around the twelve thirteen fourteen, when we had a little bit of a scare I felt within the hunting community. You know, everyone started seeing herds dropping across some states with e h D really popping up, and there was you know, more concerns of course around c w D and hunter numbers were plummeting, and there was this this period of oh have we lost the

good old days? And it seems like we recovered from that pretty nicely. I think if if you had been if we've been talking that year when we all got together and the National Deer Alliance was started, you know, right around that time, given some of those concerns, I think if you told us, well, it's gonna be an eight and we're gonna be feeling pretty good about two, I think both of us would have been pretty pleased to see, you know, where things have gone since that period.

Um ah am, I right on that do have. We made a strong, a strong stride there. Yeah, you are spot on, you know that two thousand fifteen, two sixteen, you know, kind of that era, we had several variables come together to really kick deer in the seat of the pants. So we had terrible hemorrhagic disease outbreaks here, but we had to one hundred year disease outbreaks within a five year period. That's when all that land come out of CRP and you know, in the Midwest lost

like seven million acres of wildlife habitat. We had increasing predator popular labbertain areas and plummeting falling the cooper rates. So there was a lot went out at that time that we're really you know, hitting dear hard and uh, you know, true to their form, you know, deer or one of the most resilient species there are. And so with some good manager programs, with hunters stepping in, those

deer herbs have have really recovered since then. And uh, heck, looking season, Uh we shot over six million white tails, which which is you know, the most that we have shot in a long long time. So yeah, things are far far brighter today than they were back somewhere around So what do you think? What do you think the

what do you think? The headline then is if we're we're coming off of this banner year in what's what stands out to you is you've gone through, You've scanned through the numbers, You've interviewed and talked to various people across wildlife agencies. You guys have compiled the data, You've put together two white tail report. What stands out for you as as the big takeaways as we look back

on this past year or two. I think that this past hunting season one that we just came out of and uh, and and there are some states that literally are just ending the season right now. So I think the harvest is going to be down, you know, once

all those numbers are in. This past year, UM, much of the US had unseasonably warm temperatures through you know, much the firearms seasons, you know, well into December, and UH, if you have the early reports that you know, the agencies that can compili dated very quickly or any um product of what all the states are going to see a lot of states were down a little bit, but we have to remember the reporting that they were down, you know from the twenty into te season of which

was a historic season where you know, we shot all those dewers. So what that means is, as hunters, we tend to look at the headlines and allow that to dictate whether last season was good or not. Well, we're a historically high numbers going into this past season. So even if it was down it and I think it probably will have a show to be down. Um, it was still a really high harvest this last year. So that means is we have a lot of deer in

the landscape. There are tremendous opportunities for for hunters across the United States to go afield, you know, and and fill the freezers with deer. So so that's good and uh so I'm gonna have to remind myself but even though maybe we didn't see quite as many dear this past year as the year before, I think that was a lot more related to just, uh, you know those weather patterns, you know, those uncommon weather patterns, more so

than actual deer numbers. Yeah, you know it. We're so it's so human to get wrapped up in like what have you done for me lately? And numbers like what's the population number or what's the harvest number of this past year, and then we have a tendency to maybe overact sometimes to that probably just like you know, we might overreact about, well, how do my stock portfolio perform over the last quarter, and if it's down six percent this quarter or this year, you know, it's a hannock.

But if you look at the long term trajectory of the tao or whatever over the course of ten years, if you can weather the storms every once in a while, it's still going to keep on going. And I imagine oftentimes that's what we see with wildlife populations, is that they will be these little blips, but general trends are maybe more important. But I'm curious, you know, if if we well, maybe that's not I'm trying to what I'm

trying to ask here, Kip, is is our harvest? So total harvest number for a state or for the country, is that a good way to measure the quality of our dear herd? Or is there a better way that we can look at either are states or nation or region and determined like, hey, is this in a good place or not? Because it's easy to say more is better, but I don't know if that's necessarily case, is something like age, structure or or something else a better comparometer

of how good things are. M it really is. And of course we want to look at what the total harvest is, and that's an important number to look at. Does not tell the whole story at all. As you alluded to, Um, there are some states that are trying to dramatically reduce deer herds. You know, they just have deer hers are way higher than what the habitats can support,

so really high buck harvest there. You know. While some hunters will look at that say, man, this is great, the reality of it is that's not creating a healthy situation, you know, because those deer herbs continue to climb, you know, higher than you know than they should be, you know. So what's what's the better way to look at is sure,

let's look the whole number. That's fun, but let's dig into it a little bit and say, okay, let's break that total harvest down by ant limd bucks and antalysts deer. Let's make sure that those are balanced. Most states need to harvest more antalyst dear than bucks, you know, otherwise deer herds grow too abundant. So there are certain exceptions to that deer you know in nearer northern New Englan and some of the deer in the western US kind

of at the fringes of good white tail habitat. But for the most part, we do be shooting more those that we do bucks each year. So take a look at that total harvest. But then let's break it down into the sex ratio of the harvest. That alone can can give us some good information on health of that dear hurt. And then if we can add in the age structure on both sides of that, that really gives

us a good feel for what's going on. And unfortunately, most state walife agencies you do, estimate the age structure of both the bucks and the analyst side, so that gives us a good thing to be able to measure year after year after year. And it's the trends in those that are most important. You know, that lets us know are we getting to where we need to be or not? And if so, man, that's great, and if not, hey,

then let's correct that. Let's make some changes and then they will allow hunters, you know, to help us meet that plan and get us to where we need to be so that we do have very healthy dear hurts. Yeah, and all of those trends seem to be pointing in

the right direction as of this last report. Right. Um. I know one of the things we talked about last year was that the doe harvest was down from in that last year we discussed that the doll harvest was down, but it seems like that rebounded back above buck harvest this year, right, So that's a good thing, absolutely, And yeah, that the doe harvest had been down for several years in a row, and that was very concerned, extremely concerning, and but yeah, the most recent one it has rebounded

and for the first time in the past three hunting seasons, we have now shot more analysts deer than than amil and bucks again, which is very good. That is a good situation for us. So, uh, yeah, there was there was a lot of very positive things that came out of that harvest. So numbers were good, the sex ratio of the harvest was good, and age structure for both bucks and does was good. So that that lets us know that in many places, you know, we're in a

really good spot relative to those gears. Yeah, so what do you think about the whole buck age structure story. I remember handful of years ago we talked about how yearling buck harvest was at the lowest rate ever. It was something like thirty two percent or thirty three or somewhere in that ballpark. And you remember you thinking that we likely we're going to plateau there. Let's be stuck around like that low thirties, give or take um. But now we're several years past that and it keeps dropping.

What do you think about that? I think that I totally blew that one when we was gotten before. I I vividly remember, because we've been monitoring this since, you know, when it was over six of all the buckshot rolling in one and a half, and I've watched it just steadily det dropped and dropped and dropped, and man, what it hit about thirty I remember thinking, you know, it's it's just it just can't go any lower. You know, hunters just won't let it go lower. You know, they're

going to continue to take some yearling bucks. And you know, youth hunters, of course, all had the ability to do that. So from from just a hunting culture standpoint, I really didn't think that would go below that. And I remember telling you that and all others as well, and and it turned out I was wrong, It was very wrong. It has continued to drop to where it is now,

to the lowest ever. Uh So, essentially, of all the antlered bucks that we shoot today, you know, three out of four of them or at least two and a half years old, only one is a year land And that is an incredible testament, you know, to to what hunters have done to really move dear into older age classes and you know, provide a much more natural age

structure for bucks. And uh man, you know, you don't have to be in South Texas or the Golden Triangle of Illinois anymore to have the opportunity to hunt mature bucks. You literally can do that in every single state in the country that has white tails today. How satisfying is

that for you? Kip as some who who has been a part of that transformation over the last you know, a couple of decades really and everything that the Quality Deer Management Association had been sharing and educating with people for so many years. I mean, so much of this can can be pointed as as you guys having a direct impact on How how does that make you feel to see what a night and day change has happened.

Oh it's extremely gratifying. Um, mostly because you know, I'm I'm first and foremost of deer hunter, you know, and I love to reap the benefits of that. And and it's so nice as I travel the country and and work with hunters, you know that that they get to see that as well. And I can vividly remember back in the early two thousand's, you know, when I would give talks about q DM and you know, and people it's wherever I was, I say, was in the No, it was in Michigan, and people say, oh, that works

in the South, it doesn't work up here. I said, well, no, that's not true. You know, it can work here. I just need to you know, apply it to you know, the state's you know, variables and you know. And then i'd go to two Maine and they say, how it works in the stuff, it doesn't work in New England. That's not true. And I vividly remember I was in Nacodoches, Texas, and UH speaking at Stephen F. Austin UH State University,

and UH talking about QTM. You know, QTM was bored and and I davidly remember a guy the artist raised his hand and I said, yes, sir, and he said, yeah, you know, you Yankee, what you're talking about that might work up north and that doesn't work down here. And I stopped and I said, I have absolutely heard it all. Now I have traveled this country. It had people in the north Tella, you know, but now this is the birthplace of the whole qt m ol Brothers, the wildlife

wildist in Florida. You know who who is responsible for for starting this And now you're telling me it doesn't work here. So you know what it was. It just, you know, hunters just didn't want to change the way that they their mindset was about hunting or their approach to what they were going to shoot or not. And you know, fast forward twenty years and you know, if you look at kids that are hunting today, or you can look at adults, you know through our field of

fork programs, you know, adults who are starting now. You know, they can't even imagine, you know, when we talked to him about what it was like and thirty years ago that that seems like, you know, we're talking about you know, aliens or something, because it's so different than the standing crop of deer that we have today. So yeah, it's gratifying, and it's mostly gratified just because I love seeing people you'll have success in the woods and uh, you know,

and just be so excited about the opportunities they have. Yeah. So so twenty years ago, obviously these numbers looked so different, and now over the last couple of decades, we've seen this massive shift to now where like he was described, only one out of every four bucks harvested across the country on averages a year and a half old, the rate of three and a half plus old bucks is

higher than ever as well. So in a lot of ways, you know, I think people might be able to say, hey, you know, implementing some form of quality deer management or improving the age structure of deer across America mission accomplished. We've we've really improved it to a degree. Um So when you guys at the n d A, you know, obviously a couple of years ago, the q d m A and the NDA merged. You guys start rethinking some of your goals and issues and things you want to

focus on. And now you've been doing that for a couple of years now. When you look forward. Now, Kip, and you're looking at Okay, what's the next big mission? I know you have a handful of different priorities, but for you personally, Kip, what do you see as is that most important or most um most interesting moving forward?

If if we can say mission accomplished on improving AID structure and all the trickle down positive impacts of that, what's the next big mission that you hope that you guys and us as a community can start really driving forward? Is there something there is? And the two that are right at the tip of my fingers that I enjoy

working on. A one is making the general population uh knowledgeable about the value of deer and then to ensuring that we have a sustainable hunter based coming forward, you know, through our our three efforts in our field of fork programs. So you know, as as hunter numbers continue to decline, you know, we just have a few families that are bringing hunt or's into the fold. So like fortunately I do and you do, but you know, you and I

are the you know, becoming the exceptions. So I get very excited about developing programs and working to ensure that people that didn't grow up the way you did or I did have an ability to be able to go hunting, you know, uh later in life. And then ensuring that folks understand just how important deer are to uh, you know, to America. You know, not just the hunters or but truly how we are to America. Uh. Those are two big initiatives that we have and those thanks getting me

really excited to start work each day. Let's talk a little more about that whole idea of the value of Dear. You mentioned that this is going to be one of the big priorities that the upcoming Dear study group. UM, What's what's the angle with that? Or how how do you see us as a community being able to do that better? Or how as an organization is the NDA plan to do that? UM? I guess I'm curious number one, if you want to elaborate just a little bit more

about why that's important. Um. And then secondly, how do you think we can do that? I think it's important because you know, wildlife has such uh an impact on all Americans. You know, whether you live in rural America or urban America, you know, wildlife has an impact, and for the most part, it's a very positive impact. You know, maybe somebody you know loves watching birds at a feeder. Maybe they're not a hunter, you know, but they like

that where they enjoy you know, seeing wildlife, just wildlife viewing. Well, so much of that painful by deer hunters. Uh. We know that about of all hunters in the United States hunt deer, and most of all of our wildlife manager programs are paid for by hunters and in large part of deer hunters. So that's in orton. And as we lose hunters, we lose funding for all of that wildlife.

So you know, whether you care about your mobile links or you know, Kirkland's wardlers or spotted salamanders or whatever it is, it's important to understand that they have direct tie to like tail deer. And so it's we're reaching a critical mass in the United States where we need more people to understand the value of those deer to ensure that we have sound funding programs moving forward. And and this is especially true as c w D continues to spread. You know, given the film, we have ten

to eleven million deer hunters in the US. What we are not going to solve c w D with ten to eleven million people. However, there's far larger base of people out there who who are dear enthusiasts, you know, the like the c deer that like the photograph deer. So as more of a base understands the value that deer have, um, that is how we will defeat things like CPD, like the funding issues relative to habitat management

and hunter access, all of the stuff is intertwined. And uh, at one point there was enough Americans that hunted that the hunter base is large enough to handle all these issues. And that's not the case anymore, and and it actually

hasn't been the case for a while. So the timing is is extremely important right now that we start showing, you know, just how valuable deer are two Americans, so that more people can then basically step up and help in this battle, whether it's disease, habitat loss, or anything else. So so that that's why we see this as being so critical and why we made it the theme of the Dear Study Group meeting next week, and and why we'll put so much emphasis into this. Does does the

value of deer hunting factor into that too? Is that part of what we need to help communicate as well. It's not just the deer that are valuable, but also our engagement with them and on our side of things, is that part of the store we need to tell Oh, it absolutely is. And uh, you know, I have some friends you know that that love butterflies, say, um, and

I think that's cool. I like butterflies too, But none of my friends will like butterflies, plant any type of food plot specifically form or at least nothing that's larger, you know than you know, a ten square foot area around their house. You know, those people are managing old fields. None of them were managing and force at areas. None of them are pumping money into our wildlife program by buying guns or you know, other hunting equipment. So this is not a knock on you know, those users at all.

You know, God bless them. I'm glad they like that. But hunters are the ones, you know, to do the majority of this conservation work to ensure that we have the funding available and that we have these management programs. So yeah, so hunters play a huge role in this um. You know, most people would realize that, you know that deer hunting. Just in the Southeastern United States, deer hunters there spent over a billion dollars a year on laying at least to deer hunt. That is a tremendous amount

of money that's pumped into those local economies. You know, that fund a whole bunch of other things. You know, now to those people also turkey hunt and scorel hunt and duck hut. Yeah, probably, but that is those are moneys that can be identified specifically for deer hunting. So yeah, I mean, hunters have provided this free public service to society for so long, and we're glad to do it.

You know, it's time that they get recognized for some of the refforts like that, particularly at a time where hey, you know, we need a larger recognition of those efforts and some more help in many ways to make sure that we can continue to fund O wildlife management programs adequately as we go into the future. Yeah. So then

what's what's our role in that moving forward? People like you and me as hunters, or or maybe the organizations like the NDA, what all can we do collectively to try to start, you know, making sure that narrative is understood in showcase in the value of deer and deer hunters. Is there is there any kind of accent items that

we can really rally aroun Yeah, there are. And you know it's about taking the information you know, and being able to share it with with with our friends, you know, and others you know that that we know and hunters are you know, they like to share good information. But in many cases, you know, it's hard, but we don't have good white sized pieces, you know, for them to be able to share. You know. Now you obviously you're grapple about this and you can you know, describe this

to people. We need to provide that information for all hunters to easily be able to share where the neighbors, others at schools and sports teams and that type of thing. And uh. And that's one of the reasons why we have helped start the Southeast Dear Partnership, which is which is a collection of state and federal agencies NGOs like n d A and some private entities that is looking at this project too and um promote the value of

your hunting in the Southeastern US. UM. This is actually what my presentation at the Southeastern Study Group is going to be talking about this project. And essentially this has three phases. One is to as a research phase where collect all the information that's possibly out there on the value of deer, the value of deer hunting, economic data, habitat data, et cetera. Let's get this all in one place, so we have and actually we are just finishing phase

one of that right now. Phase two then is develop a PR and a marketing campaign to be able to share all this information, and that's what we are just moving into that, and then phase three will be all right, let's actually implement that so that we can share this information with the general public, you know, not just hunters, and we're not trying to convince you know, people who don't hunt to hunt. We just want them to understand the value of deer and hunters what they provide to

all of our WALLEFE programs. So that is the action item is, Hey, let's let's create these PR campaigns so that we had this information care and then let's broadcast

it as widely as possible. So you know, whether you know, if you're a non hunter or maybe you know you like to look at merds or you like to look at wildlife or whatever, let's at least understand how this is all tied, you know, or the role that deer habit this and so, so that's pretty cool, and uh, you know we're an exciting place of that right now. Over the next twelve months, you're going to see a lot of these public press releases and you know, this

whole PR campaign start to unroll. Very cool. So you know, the second priority you mentioned, the second really important thing was was participation, Right, So making sure people understand how valuable dear and deer hunting is important for that massive percentage of the UM of our country that doesn't hunt. But then also we want to try to increase the

number of actual participants UM. And you know that's been something that that we've all talked about for a lot of years now, UM, and I think most everyone knows was the basic story, like why it's important for us to continue passing while on the hunting heritage and keeping folks engaged and making sure that our numbers don't plummet

and that our our voice doesn't disappear. UM. But over the last i don't know, the last year or so, there have been a a few somewhat high profile UM rebuttals to that story, some of them within my own company at mediator UM, people kind of saying, hey, it's actually getting too crowded. There's too many people out there. Why are we trying to get more hunters out there? Whenever where you go, there's people bumping into people, COVID scent and if everybody the outdoors, it's a mess. Uh,

we're actually making things worse. Um what's your take on those kind of contrarian opinions that I think are definitely the minority, But but it's a it's a thing we're starting to hear from people now, Um, what see your take on that? Yeah? Um, um, I know exactly what you're you're saying there. And I've lived that information, you know, from media on this podcasts and and heard those people debate that and and and you know, I'm I understand

that the crowding issue. Um as hunters are like, we don't want to be crowded when we're hunting, you know. Week part of the reason we go, you know, is to get away from crowds, you know, and and to be with nature, to be a field and you know, so it's quiet and serene. So you know, we don't want to have a bunch of other hunters around us. And and I'm the same way, you know, I never go out and thinking, Man, I hope I just run

into hunters all day to UM. But you know, understanding the necessity of hunters and why fewer hunters means less advocates for hunting and less you know, dollars for funding that that's not good for any wildlife. So I think that if we start talking about, you know, hey, less hunters is better, I think that's that's pretty shortsighted on our party and pretty selfish. Um. We have fewer hunters

today did in the past. So if today, if say we had you know, twice as many hunters as we had twenty years ago, okay, and I I can see some of the arguments about crowding and let's have that conversation. But given the fact that we have way fewer hunters today than in the past, But to talk about crowding today, I don't. I don't buy that at all, um, partly

because it's very different across the US. UM. And actually I just finished an article looking at deer hunter densities on a per square mile basis for for for all the states in the country, or at least every state that would provide us there hundred deer hunter numbers. And uh, you know, as a region, the western US only averages one deer hunter per square mile, So I mean that's that's not that many people um com prepared to speaking of the Southeast has about four hundreds per square mile,

the Midwest has about five, the Northeast has nine. So it's hard for me hunting in the north East, where while my home state of Pennsylvania leads the country with fifteen deer hunters per square mile. So it's hard, you know, for anybody, particularly east or the Midwest, at those densities to them. Look at the western US and thing man, you only have you know, one deer hunter for squre a mile, you know, so suddenly there appears to be a lot of room for, you know, for more. And

and hey, I've hunted out West. I love it. I've ran into people there too and thought, gosh, I wish I could just get away from him. So I'm not saying it's a non issue, but I'm saying, for the future of our wireless manager programs, in the future of hunting, uh more hunters is the answer, not fuor hunters. Yeah, now, I know. When we chatted last year, there were these um initial reports of the COVID impact and sending more

hunters to the woods. UM. Seemingly at least we're hearing early reports of that, same for fishing and all sorts of different outdoor recreation. Um. Have you been able to get any sense of how that's continued to trend? Does that seem to be something that has continued on this year? Um? Does that seem to be something that has reverted back to the mean? What's what's your take on that? Have you heard anything more in there? Um? And not much, you know, and I think the data is not in

on that yet. So last year, the big bump because of COVID, some states you know, sold a lot more licenses. Participation was up. UM. But it's it's it's funny because we need to realize it's it's up relatively speaking. So it was up from the year before, nowhere near what it was a decade ago or two decades ago. So I mean, that's all relative to that. But right now, you know, many of these states are hoping that they

could keep those hunters that they got in that bump. Um. They're waiting to see if that actually pans out or not. So you know, later this year we'll have a better understanding once all that license sail data comes out, you know, and how many permits they sold and and all that. But fingers crossed, I hope that we were able to retain a bunch of those hunters. So the time will yeah, now do you know, Kip, I don't know this. I'm sure the dad is out there. I just have I

can't remember what it shows. Do you know what the trend is with bow hunter numbers? Is that rising specifically or is that going down as well? That is rising, and it's really in part because of increased opportunities for crossbows. You know, there's the majority of states today you can use a crossbow in the archery season, so that has played into that as well as just some of the expanded opportunities you know for archery seasons and states. Uh my,

my home state is a good example. Historically, almost all the deer were killed during you know, the two week buck or rifle season, and most of those were killed on opening day in the first Saturday. Well, today, you know, we have a long pason you can use crossbows in that, and today almost of our total deer harvest is taken during the archery season. So you know what you have, and many of them though it's not like it's a

whole bunch of new hunters. A lot of them are the same hunters, just choosing to take advantage of opportunities to hunt when it's a little warmer and you had longer seasons, and so you know, they're they're putting venison in the freezer a little sooner. It hasn't dramatically changed, you know, the number of deer they get shot. They're just shooting more of them a little earlier in the year.

So uh So, anyway, bow hunter numbers have climbed, but we monitor the percentage of the total deer harvest that's taken by bow hunters every year, and that's it's the pasture. That number has stayed pretty stable the last few years. Uh fifteen years ago that number was only so it grew to about a quarter of the total deer harvest. But it's really leveled out right there, and it hasn't

changed much at all in the last four or five years. Yeah, So here's the hypothesis I have that I think maybe maybe can can speak to the feeling that many people have that the pressure is so much higher out there on deer and I wonder that overall hunter numbers have declined pretty precipitously, but has the number of avid deer hunters, So like the die hard people like like me or you who spend days and days and days and days

out there, has that number increased significantly? So maybe we have way fewer in general, but what number of those people only headed out for the first two days a gun season? Um, But then you've got more people like me who hunt fifty days a year or seventy days a year. So the number of days hunted actually is higher because a smaller number is just doing it at

a much more intense level. So that's why I asked about bow hunting, because I I think usually folks at bow hunt are spending more days in the field and folks at gun hunt. That's kind of a many times, those are people that want to add time to their season, They want to hunt all year round, they want to

go more, they want to invest in it more. And so now compared to we we're twenty years ago, I I'm assuming my assumption, based on just general sense of where things are, is that there's a whole lot more people today that their life revolves are un deer and they're spending habits revolve around deer and they buy land, or buy equipment or by vacation days all around. Can I get out deer hunt more and do this more? I'm I'm wondering if that is part of why people

feel like it's so much different now. That's why they feels like when they go on public land it's crowded with tons of guys with saddles or mobile hang ons on their back because there's so many people that are die hard about it compared to years ago, even though we have lower total numbers. Does does anything that resonate with you? Do you think there's anything to that? That's

a great question. Um, the US Fish and Wilife Service and in the big national survey that they do every four or five years, they always measure that or provide data on you know, you know hunt or avidity, you know in the super ad it's and all that. Um, what's that's coming out right here later this year? I guess. Um, So anyway, I think that's a great theory. I think it's a really cool question. Uh that is the data set are the only data set that I'm aware of

that that could answer that. So once that comes out, We'll have to take a look and see if that percentage of you know, superrabbit hunters or abbot hunters has changed over time, because that that certainly could, given that you know, there's more bow hunting opportunity now and in that bow hunter spends far more days a field than the average fire arm hunter does. Yeah, I'll be curious

to see that. So so kind of okay. Taking the next step from that, then if there is a general sense from some folks that stuff is I think this is fair to say. I think most deer hunters. I'm gonna this is anecdotal, but I think generally there are complaints or concerns around. You know, no matter where you are, everyone complains about there being too much hunting pressure. Whether it's in Pennsylvania where there's square a mile or in

Montana where there's one. Right, everyone's gonna everyone's complaining about it in one form or fashion, whether it's warranted or not. Um, but this goes to, Okay, whether or not you're happy with the number of hunters that there are. One thing that definitely would be good is if we could have more access more public land or higher quality habitat in any of those places that you can get out to

make sure that people still have good places to go. UM, since you know, access is one of those things that's been hard or hard or come by over the last couple of decades. As more land is being bought up for hunting, more land is leased out for hunting, and if you're not in those couple groups, you might be left out in the cold. As free permission is shrinking

UM and public land is increasingly being utilized. So I know that one of the goals Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe one of the stated kind of objectives for the NDA is to help improve access, habitat and deer hunting on at least one million acres of public land? Am I right on that? And then number two, what's what's the game plan to do that?

How are we doing that? How are you guys doing that? So, yes, you are correct that that is our goal a million acres, uh, you know, within that five year period, and we're accomplishing that by working with the U. S Force Service and some other partners. And essentially what happens is, you know, we are able to get contracts to go in and cut timber on us force land UM and then use the money from the timber sale to chance the habitat

that's there and the access. So while we don't have the ability as an organization to go out, you know, and buy a million acres of land and say hey, you know, here's here's public land, or we want you to be able to go and use this UM, we do have the ability to work with the four Service and others and take that public land and just make

it far better for hunting. You know, older mature hardwoods and over mature software force and provide very little for deer, but the good management we can make those you know, extremely high quality deer habitats. So that's what we're doing here.

You know, with that, you're changing up the age structure on some of those forests, enhancing uh, you know, the woods, which then also allows us to do some stream work, uh, some roadwork to enhance access in and And the goal is, let's take what is there that's already public land hunters can use. It's just not real valuable. Let's take that and just make it better and then provide ways that

hunters can get in and actually use it. So this can absolutely help the crowding issue where you know, hey, if you're in an area hunting public land and you know we all want to go to there, that that's the best habitat. Well, you know, if all of a sudden you have a lot of good habitat that's spread out, that just naturally is going to spread out some of that pressure hunting pressure, hiking pressure, biking pressure, whatever the

case is. So that's going to be better for wildlife, it's going to be better for hunters, and it's gonna be better for all the users on those public lands. So yeah, what we're super excited about that project that started this past year and uh, you know, the first contract was in actually in Mississippi last fall to start cutting.

We expect to be cutting in six to seven different states during two and we would just keep that number growing and spreading across the US to be able to impact hunters in more states and eventually be all the way across the US. So very excited. Now. Is that something that regular people like me or anyone listening can in any way positively positively contribute to or is this

outside of the influence of of the average person. I know they absolutely can that can be involved with that and and the best way to be involved is one u by being an NDA member because you know, they can then contact us, we can have a dialogue relative to whatever a certain forests in their area. Uh. Matt Ross, our director of Conservation, is the one the spear has this project for us, and he's the one that works with all of these four service for supervisors you know,

on these different areas. Well. Matt lives in New York. Matt travels the country Force, but you know he doesn't know you know, all of the national forces in pick a state, whereas you know our members in these different states or other deer enthusiasts, they certainly can contact Matt, share information with him, gives him their you know, opinions on different things. So that's a great way for them

to be involved. Of course they can also then be involved with that national forest because those those four so they want that engagement, they want to hear for the public. So in the more input that they have in or the more engagement by hunt hearing people say, man, this is great, thank you for cutting this you know timber in my backyard or in my state. You know, that is just more encouragement for the forced service to continue to increase this program and then amount of acres that's

in it. So there's there's lots of opportunity for folks who who want to get involved to do so and have a positive impact on the resource. Awesome. So I wanna pivot. I want to make a hard pivot to a piece of less exciting news. I suppose maybe not news, but it's a topic that's not often fun to talk about but still important. UM. And that's the disease front we mentioned earlier about where things you know, have been pretty bad with e h D, you know, seven years

ago or so. We haven't had as bad of about break like that recently. But of course there's the looming c w D cloud that continues to kind of rain down on us slowly but surely year after year. UM, can you give us the the cliff notes on what's new on the c w D front, both good and bad? Um, where do you see things headed in that direction as well? Sure h c w D is now in twenty nine states in the US. Um that we ended the year with twenty seven states, and right off the bed in

two we added two more, Alabama and Louisiana. So twenty nine states continuing to spread UM. That's that's kind of the bad side of that. UM. The good side is we need to know more about the disease today than we have in the past, and you know that's encouraging. There's a lot we don't know yet, but you know,

we continue to learn more. UM. Hunters understand more about it today than in the past, and that is good because the best things that we can do to keep the disease from spreading is to stop moving live deer and stop moving the high risk parts of deer that we shoot. The high risk parts are the eyes, the brain, explaining the backbone. So you know, as the hunters can do absolutely. You know, there's something that hunters we can do every single day, and that's do not move those parts.

And to make sure that all of our hunt buddies know, hey, don't move these parts. And and for folks listening, if they're if they're not sure why the it's a big deal. You know, say you go to uh to Wisconsin, you shoot a deer, say it has c w D, and you take the whole thing back home to Michigan. You you know, you process that at your house, throw the carcass out back. Well, that carcass, that's the higher risk parts, the backbone, et cetera. Other deer that come in contact

with that can then contract the disease. So that's why it's a big deal and we should not be moving those parts. So there was a time a few years ago when it was pretty bleak in the CDWD front. There was no good news coming out. There was no positive results from any research and that and that's starting to change now. You know, we are seeing some small victories relative to states holding prevalence rates very low. That's

a good thing. We know that more hunters now abide by the rules and they're not moving those parts, and that's a good thing. So, uh, you know, is it is it a difficult fight? Heck yeah, that's what difficult fighters and we've ever had for deer. But but man, take a look at our forefathers, you know, back you know when there was only a couple of hundred thousand white tails in the whole country. You know, that was a big deal, and the hunters solve that. So I

think we're gonna solve the c w D issue. I do. I'm a firm believe it that we are. So um, I think it's the single biggest challenge right now facing the future of deer hunting. And um, that's not just my opinion, the vast majority of wildlife managers that is what they believe. The US I'm out there who will still think this is fake news and that you know, it's not a big deal. But it's very clear c w D is a huge deal for the for the

future of deer hunting. And fortunately we are you know, starting to get our hands around it a little bit in a few states, and that provides hopeful for all those others out there. So, UM, I think we will get it. I think we're gonna beat it. It's just gonna be a long fight. That this is not something that will defeat you know, in the next year or two. We're in this for the long haul. But as we continue to learn more, um and get more hunters engaged

on this, I think that is the path to beating it. Yeah. You know, one of the things I've heard over the years has been, you know, the fact we don't have a ultimate solution yet, right, we don't have a cure, we don't have a way to really stop it. All we can hope to do is slow it UM until we figure something out right. The thing has always been like, we need more funding, we need more research, we need

to get answers because there's still so much we don't know. Um, there's there's possibly some hope on the horizon when it comes to new funding. Right, can you talk to me about where we stand with the CDBD Research and Management Act? I believe is the correct titles that right? And where does that standards? What do we need to know there? That is a big one, you know, and this would be a huge win for for for wildlife, for hunters,

for for wildlife agencies. Representative kind Um has been a big advocate for this for a while and UH we we have worked straight with him helping UH draft some of this and some of the other partner organizations. Essentially, what this would do is um cwds. Very state widlife agencies don't have specific budgets and they don't have federal funding to pay for testing, for monitoring, for surveillance, that

type of thing. So what this act would do is dedicate funding to the states for that UM because think about this, you know, every state that has the business you need to monitor for it. But when you spend the money to do so, you know, there's not an extra pool of money for it, so you're taking money away from other programs like habitat work or access or

land acquisition or or what the case is. Well, the CTBD Management Act would provide funding to help monitor the disease and allow agencies to use some of the other budgets for all of those other things that as hunters, we want them to use that money for. So this is closer than ever to be in pass. And that's something that all sportsmen and women can get behind and encourage the legislators to support that because if that has passed and that has voted in, that would be a

huge win for anybody that cares about wildlife. And and how close is that to come up to vote? How how can we make a difference on that front if that's come up here pretty soon. Yeah, I don't know exactly how close it is to a vote. Um, it's a you know, anything that's legislative can be can be difficult to follow like that. UM I do know that,

you know, it is something that's on the radar right now. Um, there's time for for all sports and many women you know, to let their legislator all that they support that UM and sooner rather than later would be good. I'm not saying they don't they have to do it today, but hey, let's do it this week or this month, you know, and not wait any longer. The more support that that we have from our American public about this, the more

likeliness to pass. You know, there's no downside to to any of our wildlife agencies or any funding mechanism because of it. So this is something that that's very much needed. Has not been done UM for almost twenty years now, and so if we could get this past, this would be a huge win for all of us. That's great. Is there anything else on the you know, coming down the legislative pipeline this year that you guys are really focusing on that that we as hunters should be paying

attention to. We are huge advocates of the National of the Grasslands Act UM. We talked earlier about all that CRP land that was lost, the habitat that was lost, you know, that would be grasslands is a huge thing for a wildlife you know, across the US. So that's another big piece of federal legislation that we're working hard to get past. So Uh that's Uh. If if if anybody person here wants to get involved with something else or engage or let their legislator no, hey, make one

phone call let them know you support both of those. Uh. Wildlife will thank you for it. Excellent. So so speaking of then, you know, making that phone call or email, you know, as we're looking forward into the rest of you know, we do this every year. There's always a few action nymes. I like to try to put in front of folks and and offer up as ideas for things that we could be doing. What are a few ideas that you have for hunters this year in uh to make a positive impact on the future of deer

and deer hunting. Can you give us some some ideas, some inspirations, some some action items. Sure, um, call your legislator and uh and support the seat d and Grasslands acts. That would be great. Uh. Plan to take somebody to the woods, you know, somebody that hasn't had that opportunity before. Uh. It doesn't even have to be during deer season. Just invite them out, you know, for a walk. Um, you know,

share some of your knowledge of nature with them. Uh. Some people get so nervous about oh, I couldn't mentor somebody because I don't know enough or well, you know what. In many cases, you know, you absolutely do. Yeah, you don't have to know everything, you know, just the fact that you can take somebody out and talk to them, you know about this, you know, describe what a tree is to him or you know a certain tree, or talk to him about something you know about the stream

or about a certain bird that you see. In many cases, it just takes something simple like that to show for them. They're like, oh, how interesting this can be, how coolest can be, and hey we can we can gain another advocate for for our wildlife programs. So that is a is a great thing to do. And lastly, get engaged with there was something that's going on in the state

wildlife agency. You know, can let the local biologists know about the certain rules that they like or dislike, um share maybe a sighting of a special animal or bird that they've seen, you know, anything like that. To be involved or being engaged is good. Uh. There was a point in time where you know, there was very little engagement with our state wildlife agencies at all. Uh. That's

very different today, and that's a good thing. We're in a much better place today with how our locologists and technicians on lawforcement agent you know, deal with the public on a much more regular basis, you know, and hear about you know, maybe they saw, you know, I saw a baald eagle here today. You know, it's the first time we've seen one, you know ever, or you know, I saw this other bird or whatever the case is.

You know, any type of relationship, of of a working relationship like that can go a long long way, you know, to to help and our wildlife programs. So yeah, so get involved, you know, support some legislation, take somebody to the wounds, and uh um, get involved the state WILFE agency. Those would be three great things that we could do. Yeah,

I love it. It's funny. I was just looking into this myself, and I was just googling what kind of volunteer opportunities there are within Michigan with with our Department of Natural Resources and see if there's any opportunities to help, you know, work on public land or improve habitat anywhere or something like that. I think there was something like fifteen different projects like that looking for volunteers just within

like a three month window. There was that many different opportunities all across the state where they were looking for

people to help out. Um, that was just very eye opening to me that hey, there's there's stuff going on and people, you know, people are needed, so you know, that's a great way to get out there kind of really dig your hands into the dirt and get involved, make a real, a real difference tangibly, and meet some like minded people too that will who knows, maybe make new friends, new hunting buddies, something cool like that down the road. So it seems like like a win win

and in a lot of ways. Well, Kim, I uh, I just I'm always appreciative of your time. I always appreciative of of getting this insight from you and and knowing that there are people like you on the inside fighting the good fight to make sure we've got deer and good places to deer hunt and uh and leaders within the deer hunting community. So so thanks for that, Kip, And I guess the last thing would just be, can you give us a reminder on exactly how we can

get involved with the National Deer Association. Sure you can go right to to deer associations, UM, take advantage of any of the free resources that we have their you know, relative to hunting or or habitat enhancement. Um. Hopefully we could we could convince somebody to join and become a

member and help us out. At the very least, they can go there and and download our deer reports free download, take a look at how their state compares to the neighboring states or others in their region, or or others anywhere in the country relative to deer hunting. So we'd like to share the information, you know, more information in the hunter's hands. We see as as a great opportunity. So yeah, we encourage anybody to go there and take a look at what we got and use anything that

can help them and enhance other opportunities the field. Terrific. Kip Well, I took a look at that report of course myself and uh my ugly mug is on the cover, so I warned everyone that's not that's not a highlight. But there's a lot of great information there. I definitely encourage folks to go and check it out. Um, a wealth of a wealth of resource there. So thank you

kid for that work and for chatting today. Absolutely, and now I think that's a perfect cover you know, over the years we have done different covers, you know, with big Bucks and smaller Bucks and does and phones. There's been lots there and you know, and I thought that one captures perfectly like really where we are today as a deer hunting community. You know, where where you are mentoring somebody else, you're bringing a new hunter into the fold.

You know, it's the harvest opportunity, but the focus isn't just on the animal, you know, what it's on, you know, the actual involvement of YouTube in your field that deers there with you. So there's a lot of pieces of that that that cover that that we're chosen specifically because of what they embrace. And so I think that puts deer hunting and deer management in a really good light

for a for where we are. Yeah, it did capture a great moment that that certainly is representative of a lot of good in uh where we are in deer hunting. So I feel super thankful I could have could be involved with that. All right, Well, thank you for obviously being involved with that, and UH for for what you do for wildlife Mark and it's always good to talk to you, my friend. Absolutely kid, let's do it against soon,

all right, that's a rap. Good stuff. Make sure, as Kip mentioned, if you're not already a member of the National Deer Association, I highly recommend it. They do a great job of keeping informed. We've got a terrific magazine. They send action alerts when they are important issues in which we need to make our voices heard. All good stuff. Easy to get signed up, just head to Deer Association dot com. So thank you again, and until next time, stay wired to hunt.