Ep. 503: From Whitetails to Tahr with Traditional Archer Bre Lewis

Mark Kenyon. He's off at a Miley Cyrus concert in Memphis with Spencer new Hearth, where, at least according to his latest text to me, Spencer paid up for the meet and greet, So that's a nice little treat for the boys. Today. My guest is Bree Lewis, who is a big game hunting guide in New Zealand as well as an outdoor writer. Bree grew up bow hunting Florida white tails with her father, Tim, who is the author of several great bow hunting books and a real student

of nature. While Breeze started off hunting with compounds, mostly from stands and blinds, she quickly developed a love for traditional archery and still hunting, which is a craft she honed in the swamps of Florida but now uses in New Zealand, which surprisingly has two huntable populations of white tails. There's a crazy story behind that, which Brie shares with me. In addition to a lot of really interesting conversation. I had an absolute blast talking to her, and I think

you're gonna love the show. But I gotta give you a heads up that I actually recorded this with Bree way back in July. Mark and I got our signals crossed on this one, and we didn't really have a place for the show then, but we do now. So keep in mind if it seems like our seasonal timing is off a little, it's because we had this conversation it was in the middle of the summer. Other than that, I think you're really gonna love this episode. Free Lewis. I am so excited to talk to you today. Well,

I'm excited to talk to you too, Tony. You are living a lifestyle that is pretty wild and we were just we're just talking off air about how how I show I show my little girls, my little nine year old girls, your little social media post and stuff all the time because I'm like, look at what this girl

is doing. And I really want to get into kind of how your life has you know, hunting has been such a central theme of it, and you've really taken off with it, like you you You've said, I'm gonna go do crazy wild things with hunting, and that's it's so cool. I want to talk to you about that. But let's talk about growing up in Florida as a the daughter of a crazy traditional bowl hunter who I love. Uh, what what was it like? Was it always hunting for you even growing up as a little girl down there

in Florida. Yeah, my dad's just started taking me into the woods, whether it was for hunting or catching snakes or you know, looking at birds, just appreciating Florida nature and being outdoors. And I started hunting pretty young. Um my dad will remember the exact age. But I wanted a gun, and he made me wait till I think I was six, um, in order to start hunting. And there's there's no I know, some of the states have laws about the age that you can get in to

um firearms and hunting. But I shot my first pig that year. Um, And yeah, what were you using for a gun? It was it twenty two? Yeah? No, no, I can't remember how big, but it was a bore. Yeah, so it was. It was decent um. There's a bit of a story. I don't know if this is okay to say. Anyway, Yeah, it was a pretty independent sort of experience actually, So that was cool. Are you gonna just leave it hanging at that? Yeah? Yeah, you were an independent six year old with twenty two and you

were hunting pigs and you've got one. I was with my I was with my dad. There's just some piglets that came by and I wanted one as a pet. And anyway, yep, so you you were hunting pigs, trying to kill a pig, but also maybe eyeball and some little porkers running through there as potentially to grab and take home to raise for my dad to grab for me. Yeah, and did he grab one? Yes? I think so. So all right, well, I can tell that I'm gonna have to just pull this out of you. So what happens

to this pig that that Tim catches? Well, I think I'm not really sure because he left me and I asked if a boar came by, if I could chewed it and Um, then I saw it and I think he came running back. So, um, yeah, so you set your dad off on a pet pig catching mission while you're still hunting there? Uh, this is this? I love this. How old are you by way twenty six? This might be something we need to edit out. We're absolutely leaving

this end. So you you did something this this it's a wild story, but it's going to you're You're gonna tell us some other stuff here soon. I'm sure about your being raised down there and the way you were

raised that has led to your life decisions. And that's one of those things that I love hearing because you know, as the father of twin nine year olds, I'm always looking like, where are these moments where I can let them have some independence and make some decisions with consequences, because they're gonna hunt, like you know, whether they take to it or not, they're gonna get their chances. And you know, I think it's up to the parent to decide is is six too young? Or is eight too young?

Or is nine too young? Where where's my kid at? Obviously your dad trusted you there. Yeah, I think it depends on out on the individual. Like I was probably mature, and I think girls mature a bit understanding consequences, probably a bit earlier than boys in some cases. But it's all on the individual. And I had hunted with my dad. That wasn't my first opportunity and at a pig. Um, this is all like him telling me the story later.

I don't really remember things from back then, but there were chances, I guess where there are pigs that I could have shot, but there are cows behind them, and I was so worried that I might accidentally wound a cow that if it was in that direction, I wouldn't choot the pig. So there are opportunities where he saw me make decisions that were smart, and we talked about him, so I think he felt pretty comfortable by that stage.

Was it was this kind of hunting scenario. This, This wasn't probably out of a ground blind twenty years ago, then, was it? I mean you're probably like, were you tucked into the pal meadows or something? Do you know? I can't honestly remember now, you don't remember if there was a like a actual ground line there or not. I don't know. We weren't in a blind. Yeah, um, yeah, that's probably what it was when did when did he get into shooting traditional bows before that? Um, I'll send

you a photo of it. I would probably have been three or four, and I'm wearing a little tiara and I have my first traditional bow, and I remember I took it in to kindergarten to show and tell and I broke it because I tried to string it myself in front of the class. It's pretty heartbreaking, but yep. So that was my first traditional bow and then I just had heaps of other ones, and uh, I got

into shooting fish. So that was the first thing. I grew up on a canal that you saw and mullet would come by and I chewed him off the dock with wood arrows so they'd float once the fish died up, and then I'd go swim outing retrieve him. So yeah, I love that, And this comes your Your dad is is Tim Lewis, and he's he's a bow hunting writer, he's a bow hunting author, he's a he's a hardcore traditional bow hunter in a in a real student of nature. He's such a cool guy. Uh he was he always

traditional archery? Did he did he ever hunt with compounds that you remember? Yes, so my mom and I she she bought it. I was pretty young. Um, we got him a compound bow after he had an injury, and he thought that that was the way to go, was to try to shoot hunt with a compound bot. But I don't even think he made it a whole season with it, and he went back to traditional archery. So he's into it and you just took to that. Have you have you ever hunted with a compound or has

it always been traditional for you? Yeah? So I wasn't strong enough to pull back a traditional boat. I started bow hunting, I think when I was twelve, for dear, and so he got me a compound bow and yep, away from there, and I stuck with it all through. I wanted to go to traditional bow, but I didn't put the time into practicing, so I just you know, season would come up and I'd want to go hunting, and I just stuck with the compound as a bit of a crutch. So I just started going into the

traditional bow. Now that I've been over in New Zealand and games like readily available. There's no seasons or anything, no tags, so it's a great opportunity. So you didn't when you were growing up bow hunting those swamp white tilS down there. You were always hunting with a compound. Well no, okay, So when I was at school, um at uf, I started getting into the mounted darchery, so that motivated me to practice more with the traditional style

bow and that's when I started. So I did shoot one white tail in Florida with a trad bow, which was pretty cool. Nice when you when you start. So you said you started when you were twelve white till hunting down there. Yes, how long did it take you to kill your first year? I was in eighth grade, so it would have been probably two seasons without shooting anything. And I never went to a gun, like even the last week in a season, I stuck with my bow. So I just loved it. Were you hunting, because I

don't know, your dad doesn't hunt over feeders, does he? No? Yeah, so he's hunting natural brows and natural natural food, natural movement down there. Yeah, and I'm assuming you were too, Yeah. Yeah, so just falling in my dad's footsteps kind of. And um, I really liked early season hunting because the deer feeding on the acorns from the scrub oaks and they're out in really good country for bush stocking um, which that's

my New Zealand term for still hunting. So yeah, yeah, they go bush stocking here, but pretty much, um, just walking through those scrub oak areas and it's really quiet because we have that white sugar stand so it's quiet. There's palm front clumps in these little scattered groups of scrub oaks, um, and it's actually good chance to stalk a deer, which is a really hard beat with a bow.

So is that how you killed your first one? No, My first year was in the winter, and that was from a stand in the swamp, so it was like completely water under where I shot her. Um. Yeah. But the other thing is we're hunting on private land. We have fourteen members on the hunting club and most of them are rifle hunters. So archer season was kind of

our free range. We could walk around and we didn't worry about messing up other hunters versus during the rifle season, we stuck to one area a bit more because we didn't want to mess up other rifle hunters. Was that part of the reason why you liked the early season as well? Yeah, And and probably just for a young person sometimes it's hard to sit still for a while. Like, um, I used to only be able to hunt until nine or something in the morning, because then I'd be ready

to go do something active. But of course as I got older, I it was so exciting just being in a spot where I felt like there was a potential. I was quite happy to stay all day if I felt like it was good. So when when did you kill your your first one is still hunting down there. I don't know, because after I killed my first year, I had a bit of a good run um with does.

So our club had restrictions for bucks. They had to be I think it was a hundred oh I'm thinking of score, but it would have been I think fifteen inch main beams and fifteen inch spread and a four points on one side. Um. And then it changed and they had to be also over four and a half years old. So we had a lot of restrictions on the type of bucks that we could take, and I was always, I guess, wanting to air on the side

of caution. So there were some bucks that I took photos of and showed my dad later and he was like, oh, I would have shot that, And I was like, well, what so this is this is a world that probably a lot of people, a lot of the white sail hunters listening to this, probably have never experienced a hunting club. And you know that those kind of restrictions they're very common in those kind of places or those kind of leases and situations. And but but a lot of people

outside of the South don't deal with that. I mean when you were you know, you grew up with that, so you probably that was just what you dealt with. But as like a young bull hunter out there who's like, man, I really want to shoot something, it was probably pretty frustrating. Huh. It wasn't frustrating because I I'm probably more trigger happy now than I've ever been, just getting into the idea

that you can shoot a lot in game. Animals here are considered pest, so um, it's actually encouraged in some ways. But yeah, when I was young, because I always grew up with those restrictions, I was never too worried or concerned. I liked being out in the woods and hunting was what motivated me to spend time out there. But um,

it was a great hunt. If I saw a raccoon eating things in the tree next to me or you know, it's all the other wildlife that I saw, and if I saw a deer that was so exciting it didn't matter if I shot them or not. But having the camera and trying to get photos of them was pretty rewarding too, because you feel like I was that close and I did the movement to get my camera out, I probably could have gotten a shot at that animal

if I had wanted to. So you kind of your early years are kind of like mine, where you know, we we were primarily sitting in tree stands for white tails are sitting on the ground. But I was like you a d h D to the max, Like I don't want to sit here for hours and hours and hours and so sneaking around and still hunting. You know, when I when I was growing up, still hunting was like a very talked about and you know it was it was put into practice by a lot of people.

It's really not that popular now, at least for white tails. It's not. Yeah. Um, well, like I said, my experience hunting white tails has all been on private land on that lease. But I enjoyed the still hunting aspects so much that I started setting my stands for opportunities for still hunting. So it's kind of similar actually, tell how

I hunt the mountain country here in New Zealand. So I'd find an area with good sign around me, so still a chance of being able to shoot something for my from my stand, but also in areas where I could see other you know, scrub boaks that were dropping, in areas where I could plan a stock on something that doesn't look like it's going to be feeding by me,

and just the terrain of that scrub country. So cool because it's actually possible to do a stock you have silent footing and lots of little clumps to go to.

And yeah, so that was cool. I mean the thing that you know when you when you hunt in some of the locations you hunt, or you know where you're working down in New Zealand or you go out west here in the States, you know it's spotting and stocking, and you know it's it's very so common, right, and you just realize like, yeah, you know, if I see a meal there in the right situation, I can totally creep in on it. But we don't because of where white tails live and we don't see them better as

often as some of these other credits. It's kind of like you forget how stalkable they can be, and if you if you can move around and pay attention to the wind and and stay quiet, they're totally stalkable. It's just not it's so much harder to find the situation. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's in the in the right situation and in the right country because as it the time of the year changes and they're more in the swamps and thicker areas. It's pretty much I wouldn't say it possible, but I've

never shot one in that situation stocking. I've tried. I tried, but I haven't been successful. So yeah, it's just not it's a it's an opportunity thing that you know, there's certain situations where you know, if you're hunting Western river bottoms or something, it's it could come up, you know. I mean, I've had it. I've I've I've killed a few in my life. I killed one really good buck one time, stocking him and that kind of what you're

talking about. I was sitting there in an early season on a pond and he just walked the other side and then went out to start feeding, and I was like, I can just crawl through this cornfield and catch up to him and did and it just worked. But it was like kind of just fell into my lap, and it was like, well, you have the you have the route, you have everything working in your favor. You might as

well try it. But it's you know, it's so often with white tails, especially now, where most people are going to see that and they're not going to do anything, or they're going to try to call it in and you know, that might work, that might not. But there are situation where you can just get down and go to those suckers well, and there's a lot of situations

where you can't too. And I probably, well, there's a lot more failing stories than successful stories, even in that scrub, and I learned the hard way a bit about white tail behavior. I can remember one story that's just really really clear. It was a beautiful ten point buck and he was gorgeous, and I think I had seen him from a distance before and already knew that he could

be in that area. Um, and he came by me and just kept on walking and never gave me a shot at like thirty yards And I was hunting with a compound bow at that time, so it was like just doable range for me, but not he never gave me an opportunity. Fed under an oak, and then he was out of my range and he just wouldn't feed closer, wouldn't feed closer, and he continued on and I was so upset, and I decided I was going to get down and try to intersect him on the other side

of that little scrub oak patch. And uh, of course, right when I'm getting down, he comes back because they feed around and comes and comes right back where I could have saw him if I'd just stayed in my stand, but instead I was moving and he saw me, and who's gone? And that was it. So I was I was really heartbroken over that, because you just you put so much time into finding the spot, finding on the spot with the animal, you get so obsessed with it, and then you ruin it and you know, maybe blow

him out of that old buck like that. Yeah, it sucks. He might not be coming back there, but that's a I mean, what you bring up is a good point. I actually wrote about that this morning for a piece I've got for Meat Eater coming out later, where I realized how often when you're sitting there. You know, you see dear filter through and you're like, okay, they're gone there. They headed off to the field, or they headed off wherever.

And then you know, forty five minutes later you look up and see movement and they never left they you know, or they swung back around and they're just staging in there and just milling around in the cover and they didn't go anywhere. So that another I mean, there's an asterix on our advice earlier just to get down and run after him. Don't always do that, because sometimes they didn't go away from you. Yeah, and that that situation

really taught me. Um, but there's a good chance that they will come back and feedback by and things like that, and um, most of the time when they feed by me, I don't ever run after him. It's more these stands that I've set up to actually cover other areas where they're probably not going to come to my area after that area, or maybe they're going to be feeding down window me and then they're definitely not going to come

to that area. Sort of situation. We're all do that a bit longer stock, But um, who knows what's going to come by you if you stay there there might be something else too, so well, I mean, right, if you if you're in a situation where a good buck feeds by you, not spooke, not worried, he's just doing his thing and his you're in a good area. You

know you have good things going for you. I have to ask you when you you know, when you're growing up in your you're spotting, stocking through those palmados, sneaking through there, it how much how much fun is it? Because one of the reasons that you see that not happen a lot in the white tail woods is because the only thing we have to hunt is white tails.

But you've got such a bonus down there with pigs when you're when you're doing that, are you like, I know, when I'm around pigs, they're always on the menu, Like I never if I see him, I'm like laser focused. But when you're when you were down there growing up having access to them, was it like you're sneaking along and you hear pigs or you see them, are like, are you immediately going after him? Or you're like, I'm sticking to deer. I'm sticking to deer. Real, Yeah, I was.

I was always sticking to deer because we have the opportunity to pig hunt all year around, but we only had X amount of ones to because we are on private land. Yeah, and the pigs aren't native, we could hunt them anytime. So when I was deer hunting, I was pretty hardcore about deer hunting. I was probably a more obsessed with hunting back then than I am now, even though that's what I do know for work and everything.

But no, it was a big deal to me. Um and like even having pigs, under my stand, I would hate it because they would scare away the deer, like on the acorns and things. But I wasn't going to waste time shooting them if I felt like it was going to mess up my hunt. So yeah, they don't play well together. Huh No, No, definitely not. Definitely not on the like you know, any mass food product drawing them in, they get a bit I guess territorially aggressive

over it, so they'll chase the deer off. When I hunted, I hunted Florida one time for white tails and there were pigs everywhere, and they were like, yeah, you can shoot him, you know, but like we're we're here for a deer hunt. So I shot one pig like the first night or something like that. I couldn't. I couldn't handle it. And then after that I just had to watch these pigs. I was like, like it it kills I don't get opportunities at pigs, you know, and it

just killed me. I'm like, I don't care about these little swamp white tails, Like I'm sitting here just donating like leaders of blood to these mosquitoes. Please just let me shoot these pigs. But we couldn't. Yeah, well we could. It was just round on. You just go to Florida over the summer and yeah, go back to Coca Beach and I'm sure my dad could help you with pigs.

Part of the reason I want to talk to you, you know, the Southeast in general, is you know, there's so many white tail hunters down there, and it's like it's for some reason being in the hunting industry, it's just like a hard region to represent, Like it's hard to find a lot of voices that come out of there, even though it's a super popular, you know, it's people down there are passionate, and so that's that's part of the reason I want to talk to you, because Like

when I think about going to Florida, I don't think about hunting. I'm like, take me fishing. Well, that's it. Like the truth is our white tail quality compared to the rest of the States is just they're not as impressive. So unless you're from Florida and you love hunting the Florida swamps and the Florida bush, it's not something that you is a destination at all. Like for turkeys, that's the only and I guess gators now, um, but that's the only reason why Florida would be a hunting destination.

But if you grow up there and you love hunting the swamps and like, it's it's I think it's a tough country to hunt. You have, like you're saying, the mosquitoes and like uncomfortable heat a lot of the times, even in winter, can get pretty miserably hot and things like that, and just in the swamp and how thick it is and all of that inhospitable environment. I mean, it really is. And that's one thing that really opened

my eyes. So most of the hunting that we did down and this was like this is three days of hunting, so it's or five days of hunting or whatever. So it was like there's a very small glimpse into your world.

So correct me if I'm wrong. But you know, we did we did tree stand hunts on like natural movement, and you know, like they had some feeders out there in certain places, but it was mostly just like they had little food plots and like you know, it's it's swamps, so there's like a little high ground and they go through here or whatever. But the one day they were just like, you know, if you want to go sneak around, try to find a pig or find it here, go ahead.

And you know, so I'm I dropped a pin on camp and I'm out there and I'm like, you know, when you're when you're in the mountains, they say you get cliffed out right, Like you you get to a spot You're like, I can't go anywhere. I'm gonna die if I keep going. So you gotta back out, and you can get into trouble because because of the you know, the up and down terrain. I was sitting there and I'm like I keep getting swamped out like everywhere I go.

I'm like I'm looking and I'm looking at water that has alligators and it like I see them sometimes and I'm like, now I don't know where to go, and you can't get any elevation. It's so flat that it's like it reminds me of being in the in the big north Woods where you're just like, I don't really have a good bearing and I can't get up and see anything. It's it's a really challenging environment that you probably wouldn't think until if somebody dropped you in there,

you'd be like, oh, yeah, this is tough. This is tough. And and sometimes like especially on the edge of swamps and things, you get bushed out to like it's just actually too thick to really get through without making a lot of noise and clearing a trail um and it takes you way out of the way you'd like to go with the wind or the area that you would like to try to get to um because you have to get around this really really thick briars and vines

and everything. So, yeah, it's tough. And what surprised me, you know, because it's so wet or you know, when we were there, you know, you'd get that crazy rain for like an hour in the afternoon every day, and you know where it would just downpour, and so you'd be like, Okay, I should be able to sneak around

and be quiet. But then the the sun comes out, it's a million degrees and then there's pomp like dried palm fronds and stuff on the ground, and so you're like, like you said, you're caught in the briers, and then you're stepping on stuff that's way crunchier than you think it should be. And I was just like, this is

this is legit difficult. So you know, you talk about like the quality of deer down there, Yeah, they're little, but if you could go down there and consistently sneak around and kill them, you could go anywhere where the

deer were bigger and probably do really well. I think, Yeah, that's that's what I think too, And like getting into the guiding coming from Florida, I think learning to hunt that bush and be aware of a lot of other things besides just the game sign because you're aware of all the other species that are going to give you away and the terrain, it makes you a better hunter

anywhere that you go. And there's a lot of obstacles to solve the problem of getting a white tail in Florida and it kind of makes other obstacles not easier, but it just helps you learn to figure them out. I guess yep. Yeah, easy doesn't make you good, you know, I mean, it just it does. It easy. It can be fun, but challenging makes you good. And you know, you know you mentioned you kind of alluded to this earlier. And you know, I've bitched about hunting Florida a lot

because it was it was wild. But at the same time, you know, You're sitting in a tree stand and we were hunting the end of July, right at the opener of the season wherever we were, like Central Florida or wherever we were, and I grunted in a buck in you know, August one or whenever. It was a little guy, and I'm looking at like tree frogs and stuff from my stand and little lizards, and I'm like, this is

not something I could have anywhere else. And so you know, everything, you know, you think like, oh, the perfect white tail hunt in Iowa November or seventh or whatever. Like there there are times when it's just all around awesome and very comfortable, But a lot of times the coolest white tail hunting you're gonna have there's gonna be something that kind of sucks about it, and you just you just take that for what it is because of what you

get out of it as far as the overall experience. Yeah, and that's the thing in Florida, like with your tree frogs, and for me it was well, snakes, I like snakes and frogs, but I also liked otters a lot and raccoons and things as a young person. And I actually used to pick my stands and my spots because my dad would help me, like find sign and talk to me about what was had good potential and things. But when it came down to it, he would let me pick my my own spots that I was going to

hunt and help me set up stands there. And yeah, I used to pick them not on deer sign, but on otter sign because I like to see the otters. Oh I'd like I'd like to see a deer too, but I think i'd like to have a little bit less chance of seeing a deer, but a better chance of watching the otters and just you know the whole experience being out there. So yeah, well that's the that area that you grew up in. There's so much life

in there. I mean, it's when you're there, there's just there's stuff moving constantly, like there's there's always something going on, and that's you know that we don't talk about that very much, but I'm glad you brought that up because that that's sort of the secret sauce of enjoying hunting. Like if you're seeing anything, then it's that then it's fun, right like, and it doesn't have to be Boone and

Crockett Bucks. Like if if I challenge anybody to go out sit and watch orders do their thing and not be like, man, that was freaking cool. That was so cool. Yeah. And the other thing is like I hear you talk a bit about people looking at their phones and you know, everything while they're hunting and not paying attention to their surroundings. But if you're watching orders, then you're paying attention to your surroundings and you'll be ready for when that buck

sets out, you know. Yeah. It's I'm to the point now where I gotta shut that sucker down and just put it away because you know, and it but it's it's so worth it and it helps me when I you know, like hunting with my little girls, it helps me be aware of that pole to just be a kid on your phone and you know, like it's yeah, I mean, and it's an easy crotch, right, like we we all do it, like I do it a lot.

But when I'm with my little girls, like there's something to glass or something to watch for, something to explain, it just helps me stay in the moment better. And I didn't see that coming about taking little kids hunting, and I just love it. That's so cool, that's so cool. Yeah. So they're they're not uh bree level uh survivalists, and they're not ready for the Florida snakes and stuff like that.

Not a survivalist, but they are. They would they would explode down there in the summer and sitting on a tree stand, but they would love they love the lizards and stuff. Um, you were talking so speaking on that. We were talking, you know, before we before we started recording here, just just for like a frame of reference. Uh. We went down to Florida in March, met up with your dad, and by we, I mean my family met

up with your dad. He took myself, my little girls, and my wife's uncle out fishing and we just had a freaking blast. With him. It was so fun. And you were talking about growing up with those opportunities and so not only did you have a dad who took you pig hunting and he took you deer hunting and out to this hunting club, but you were saying that when you were like ten, you had a boat that

he trusted you to take out. Yeah. Yeah, So in Florida at that time, at ten, you could get your boaters license or permit or whatever to drive a boat. And I went ahead and I did that as soon as I was ten, and I he felt like, because I had the initiative to go ahead and do that, that I should be allowed to take it out. So that was really cool. Before that, I was taking out canoes with my little friends and we would take turns

a lot of times. Yeah um, but we were shooting shooting fish out of the canoes, taking turns, paddling for each other. And then that kind of switched to the boat, um, and going to islands and for shine and catching horseshoe crabs and you know, their seats of opportunities I didn't have. I ended up getting a crab trap, but I used to just time meat to a string and put it in and catch crabs with the net pulling that in. And you know, were you catching crabs to eat or

were you just catch them to catch them? Yep, No, I would catch them blue crabs to eat. I would only take one claw off and then let them go. So uh yeah, because I wanted to catch them again. Oh so you would take one cloth to eat that and then you'd let the rest of them go. Let the rest of them go, because I was kind of keeping them catching them behind my house, so I wanted to keep a population. I felt like that's what it

was a good thing to do. So yeah, you'd catch the same ones again a and then heaps of fishing. I liked both fishing a lot. But I would also bike down to the beach and go tarpen, try to get tarpen or snook in the morning before school. And yeah, yes,

so I was what we were chatting about. And I'm curious your take on this that it's I love that Tim gave you that responsibility and trusted you, because I feel like if you were going to create a young woman who loves the outdoors, who is going to just all of a sudden to end up in freaking New Zealand guiding hunters. That might be the blueprint for it. Yeah, definitely. I mean I think it really helped my confidence that I could just go out and do things by myself

because I was always allowed to and encouraged to. So um, that really gave me the mindset where, oh, it's not scary to get to a new place. And I'd never hunted out of the state of Florida before I started guiding, so and then I've been in New Zealand and guided in Wyoming. Had never hunted ELP before, but it was guiding there, so um, and had a bit of an experience in Canada and I got my bees assorted. So as soon as the borders open here, I can go

to BC and God, so that'll be good. That's incredible. Um. I want to I want to ask you about the

New Zealand stuff, but I want to back up one second. UM. I don't know if you ever pay attention to any of these hunting forums or anything like that, but I check into them sometimes and there's one called rock Slide that's like a it's like a Western primarily a Western hunting forum, and there was a thread recently on there about somebody was bitching about like YouTube hunters or YouTube stars or something, um giving away too many secrets and explaining the like the draw process or the over the

counter units or how to make a drop camp happen or whatever. Get like, like, please stop giving people easy information. And you know, some people, you know, predictable predictably kind of sided with them, and some people were like, you know, not everybody grew up with a dad that taught him how to do that, Like it's it's it's not a

bad thing that people have the right. They have good information out there, and it just, you know, I kind of feel like that, Like I feel very lucky how I grew up, and you know I was my dad took me hunting constantly and fishing constantly. Like I had a very very good start to become what I am today. And then I hear your story and I know your dad, and I'm like, man, it's such an advantage to have that growing up. It really really is, and it really makes me upset. We get a lot of it in

New Zealand. UM very secretive and plicky in a way, not welcoming to new hunters or people from different areas hunting different areas, and I just think that that really sucks because we're such a minority as it is, there's no reason to um be more divided. And yeah, maybe it's a shame when you want to go someplace and there's a bunch of other people there and you've walked seven hours. In New Zealand, I'm thinking you've walked seven

hours to get in and then someone's there. But when it comes down to things, isn't it awesome that we have the privilege to go hunting in it? Um, it's great if more people could get into it, even though it makes the woods a bit more crowded, because it's going to ensure that. You know, I don't have kids, and I'm not about to have kids, but one day I'd like to have kids, and I want them to have the opportunity. So if if we become such a secretive minority, it's going to get taken away and or

at least made more difficult. So without question, and you know, it's just the reality of what's going on right like we have we have. If you look at the population of humans, it's it's growing exponentially and there's more people out there and they're taking up more space. And you know, if you look at the average size of a like the square footage of a house here in the US now versus fifty years ago, it's like a thousand square

feed bigger or something like. I mean, we're taking up more space, and so the people left who want to go hunt have only so many options. And so yeah, you're gonna bump into more people and that's sucks, but we've got to keep people out there. Like I firmly believe that we have to keep people out there, and like, you can't get mad if you know, like I look at how much information we have available for everything. You know, like I can't. I can't do anything manly but hunting fish.

Like I'm if you asked me to work on a car or something, I'd be like, I can't even I don't know what that is. Like like I think I've got a truck this two years old. I think I've looked at the engine like twice, you know, like that's not my jam, but there's so you know, I can go on YouTube and find answers to questions like you know, elect electrical work or stuff like that I can do myself.

I'm like, this is kind of awesome like that that we have the opportunity to get information this way, and the same goes for hunting, Like, yeah, I know it sucks that everybody's everybody's going to Colorado to hunt elk or everybody wants to get that Iowa white tail tag now and they can figure out very easily how to go through the process of getting into the game and

playing the game. But at the same time, like man if it keeps people around and gets that fire burning and they want to be passionate and users who love this stuff like I want to open the door. Well, and the other cool thing is it's really an opportunity to help educate people to become more considerate hunters, and uh it's those platforms to share information and share good information.

Is also a platform to share, um, how we'd like to see the future of hunting going and get build people's mindsets to uh think more about conservation and management of the areas and also consideration for other hunters. So yeah, well that's you know, that's one of the big arguments, right is you know you can you can give people all the information to go on their first ALCN or

the first traveling white tail hunt. But you're not gonna give them any you know, any of the ethics do you think they should have or they're not going to just know some of these unwritten rules that you and I follow because we've were raised in this. And I look at that and I go, Yeah, a lot of people are out there and they do things that other people think are stupid. Like that's that's where are like the touch points between us and other hunters, like in

person or on platforms like this. I think that's where this stuff matters, you know, because there are people that just there's some people who are assholes, right, they're gonna just do what they want. But a lot of people just don't know, Like they don't know that you don't park right in front of the trail ahead and walk

out like there, you know. I mean, if you want to, if you want to see people do stupid stuff that just aren't thinking about other people, go to any random public boat access on July fourth weekend, you know what

I mean. Like you will see infuriating behavior. And some of it is these people are clueless, and some of it is they just don't know any better, Like maybe they got their first boat and they've never done this before, and so it's like kind of up to us to just be like, we gotta little police our own a little bit and just kind of usher them in the right direction or what we hope is the right direction. Yea. And maybe maybe I'm a little bit naive, but I

think most people just don't know. Like if they knew, they would want to be a bit more considerate about things. So at least that's what I choose to believe. So I think you're right, and I really think, you know,

it's so easy. It's so easy to go into hunting, you know, whether whether it's white tail or whatever, and expect something bad to happen, you know, Like this is what happens in public land a lot as people go out and they're just thinking, well, you know, somebody's going to ruin my hunt, or it's not gonna be any good because there's been a bunch of idiots out here, and so they don't hunt the way they should, and

it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Or if you know, you pull up there and there are two or three other trucks in the parking area, it's you get into a bad headspace and you're not gonna hunt the way you need to. It doesn't do you any good, like you know, and it those just this is so random. But I've I've had a dog training buddy who I had on my other podcast, and he was awesome, but he was a hothead. He has a he has a cabin and a lake up by where we're at. And

he passed away last year right before duck season. And when I got the text, I texted, you know, the person back and I was like, was it a Was it a heart attack? And she said yeah, And I was like yeah, because he was running so hot and so angry over so much little stuff that you know, and I'm not a doctor, right, there's probably a million reasons why you had a heart attack. But when you see that, it's like, it really wasn't worth it to

live that way. And he wasn't that old. And so I see some of these people get so worked up over this, and like, like you said, hunting is a freaking gift, Like it's we could lose this ship at any moment, and you know, the opportunity to live a life like your living, and the opportunity to live a life like I'm living or just have it be your escape. That's there's only so many generations left and that's going to be gone, Like we should really learn to appreciate

it exactly. No, I can't. Couldn't agree more with that. And I see probably because I grew up more on the private land side of things. I do, like most of my hunting heres on public land. But I see it a lot with fishing. So growing up in Florida on fishing spots, you get people there up set coming

in and it's just really not worth it. Well, I know, and it's it's weird, right because it's not like there aren't lots of places to fish and you know, but down there and people get very territorial and I get it, but it's just it's the same thing again, like you know, we we we were talking about before this podcast that everybody has a freaking boat now and everybody has the ability to go out and buy like a decent garment

unit or something they can find. I mean, you can get a five dollar app on your phone and find every every structure underneath the water on any lake you want. I mean, it's the information is out there, so you gotta go. Okay, Well, am I gonna mind to do something different? Am I to get up earlier? Am I gonna fish a little different strategy, a little tap like change my tactics. What are you gonna do to just make up for the fact that everybody has the same information.

There's more people out there? Yeah, yeah, instead of just getting just redlining and it's screaming, shaking your fist at the sky. Uh, what's what's what's it like down in New Zealand right now? Or is what's what's the coronavirus situation down there? Oh, we don't have COVID here, but we also don't have very many vaccines, so just some of the older folks are able to get vaccines now I mean sorry, I mean like, what what's the tourist situation?

Can you get in or not? No? So the borders were open with Australia, but I think they're closed now, at least from Sydney they're closed. And yeah, um, so we're just we just have Kiwi clients, which is really good. I think. Uh, myself and my boss are the only two hunting guides that I know of that are still able to be full time, so that's pretty good. So you just have you have local local hunters hunting what

tar and red stag or what are they hunting? We're mainly doing tar, just because that seems to be a bit more of the market. We have a really cool opportunity that we lease a private station with lots of public land tops and it's up in really cool country, but having the farm access up the river bed makes it more accessible. Um. So it actually comes out to be about the same price as flying if you want to do it with a group flying in and flying food and beverages in for for the time to go

hunt other public land tops. In this way, you don't have to pay the geography in and we have a really awesome hut you know, no electricity, um, but really really comfortable because it's insulated with a fire. So that just makes all the difference for winter hunting because it's it's winter now, so the ruts just about the batar is just about over, but they're still kind of high up this time of year, so it's pretty fun. Before before everything got shut down, what was your client base like,

where where were they coming from? Mainly Americans and then Germans would be the second biggest Europeans, but mainly Germans all right. Were they mostly rifle hunters? Yes, yeah. So my boss that I worked for for the chart doesn't

take those hunters. He doesn't like no no, And I don't blame him, Um, I don't blame him at all, especially for how he works, because um, I did have a client last week that killed a tar with with one shot with the three but that was this whole year, three shots has been the fewest shots to finish guitar um just because they're so tough. They've got this big main do and I think that that really takes away a lot of the speed before it even gets to their their thick shield. It's almost like a pig um

their skin. And they're just such hardy animals, so um and really really big open country. So I took my bow up I had in between hunts. I went further up the valley to some of the public land and I was going to tried to shoot guitar and I chickened out because of my clients the week before having so much trouble with a gun and I was finishing everything with the knife, and I just just like, I'm not not comfortable to playing an arrow at this animal um right now. So I'm gonna, well, but not not

even taking the bow out. Yeah, they do. They do a lot with compound bows and and I think it's definitely doable with a trad bow, and um, I think my dad will give it a try. But I just I guess I had a bad enough week guiding with having trouble killing animals, but wasn't in the right frame of mind to take my bow out for him. So well, that's it's so interesting to hear you say that, because there's whether we whether we want to or not, we

internalize things. And so when you're when you're exposed to that and you're guiding rifle hunters and you see them that a certain animals soak up a lot of firepower, a lot of lead, it's in your heart you're like, I think I can get one of these with the bow, but you know, like what they're capable of, and so you kind of internalize that and go, I don't know if this is you know, like you call yourself off of that. That's interesting. Yeah, And the other thing is

this time of year, over the winter. Um, I mentioned that they're a bit higher, so a lot of times the old bulls will live down in lower scrub and it's really doable for our tree hunters, but this time of year when they're running, they go up to much steeper country where big family mobs of nanny slipt um, and they're a bit more in the open, but still it's steep enough you can. You know, bow hunting still doable.

It's more challenging. But the worst part is re covery such a real factor where you shoot an animal for recovering it. And if you shoot them with a bow and they go, you know, a hundred yards or two hundred yards, well, are you gonna be able to get to them? You have no idea where they're going to go. So drop you're talking super high elevation, steep stuff, right, really steep, really really steep, and you know ice this time of year in snow, and yeah, there's just a

lot of places that you can't get to. So I had a tar the other week that we shot and it slid down and it hooked by its horns um and we had to tie it up two shoulder cape it and skin it, and then we untied it and gave it one push and it just free fell. We couldn't see it, and then we heard it hit something and then free fall a bunch more and hit something. So like that's the sort of country that we're in. Um, And yeah, it makes you think before you bring a

bow out, that's for sure. And it's definitely doable other times the year Um, after the rut by September especially, old bulls are back down really low and thick, bushy scrub and you just never really see them. But if you you found a good area spent a lot of time there, you probably get an opportunity. So does it do you run into any any issues? And maybe issues is the wrong word here, but you hunt with a

very interesting set up and you're guiding rifle hunters. Are you ever just like, hey, come on, guys, why don't you hunt with a real weapon or you just keep your mouth shut and take your tips and just let it go. Yeah, yeah, I definitely definitely keep my mouth shutting, definitely take my tips. That sounds bad, But in your head, are you like, come on, guys cuiping in such pansies

and hunt with a real weapon. No, Because it's such a challenge in its own way, and everybody has their different Um, what's a challenge for them and what they enjoy doing. I um have been doing because I've been guiding so many of these and it's a real social hunt.

These tops hunts I call like adventure hunting versus I think the bush stocking and the still hunting with the bow is a lot Well, obviously it's not something you can do with two people, really, I don't think, And it's yeah, you're very in the moment versus on these big walks you're spending a lot of time just covering ground where you're not really worried about your movement and things and you can talk and um, it's more the

challenges of the train in the country. So if that's what people are after, it's an awesome challenge in itself. It's just a different sort of hunting. It's kind of like, you know, I don't know if I said this on the other podcast, because I tell quite a few people this hunting is like saying that you play a sport with a ball, you know, are you playing pool or are you playing football? Like, yeah, it's it's pretty different, so different ways to go about it. Let's let's talk

about your bow choice. Okay, well I have it here. It's not strong, so it's um made with more like it has fiberglass and modern day materials. But it's a Turkish hornbow style, So which is West Asian recurve. It's a West Asian recurve, a mounted Dartrey bow. So this is new since the last one. This one's I think sixty two pounds um, so it's a bit. I had another one made that was another ten pounds stronger, just for New Zealand game. And what you say, it's it's

a West West Asian or Western Asian. What did you say? It was? Yep, a West Asian recurve kind of is the model of it, good girl. And it's a mounted bow and you keep saying that now our listeners don't know what that means. Yes, okay, So I used to do a sport called mounted archery. So it's where you're running on a horse shooting targets um pretty close ten fifteen yards away, and you hold a bunch of arrows in your hand and you shoot quickly because you're moving

by a target. And I just love that that point and shoot style, and it feels so natural and it's something that you don't have to think about. You don't have to think about the animals movement as much getting a still shot with them, you don't have to think about your movement. I think I mentioned on another podcast with you, Um I shot a turkey that was I was moving and it was moving, so um that was cool. It's just your mind takes in all that and you

don't have to think about it when you shoot. This is like like shotgunning for birds, right, there's a lot of that. You just do it enough. It's true instinctive shooting. And so this this mounted recurve that you're talking about, what what does it measure? Tip to tip? First, I know you're showing it to me, but the people can't, you know. I'm just trying to trying to think. Would

that be like three three? It's pretty short, yeah, so not it wouldn't be as long as it would be about from my tip of my fingers to about my drawing, I'd say really short. Similar and and designed. You know, the history of those bows is shooting them from horseback. And you know you said that you did this as a you know, as a sport, but it's really really a unique choice. There's probably what you and about seven other people who hunt with these. Yeah, and it's it's

really got its challenges. I think the biggest one that I'm finding is my distance. I'm just not comfortable taking longer shots, and I think a lot of that is also my um desire to really make an ethical shot. And coupled with that, I'm shooting a really heavy broad head with a stiff arrow, much stiffer than you would for my poundage of a bow. Because of that heavy broad head head, are you shooting it's two grain because it's a hundred with a still insert so um and

so you have no problems with front of center. You get you got a plenty of weight up there. Yep, yep, exactly so, but it's just loses speed really quickly. So and just because it's such a short bow and I'm not shooting with a mechanical release. I use a thumb instead of three fingers because it's only one point of contact, but it's still uh little differences and it's a really

light bow. So that stability problem to like my problem shooting because I record myself when I'm shooting and I look at it, it's all from my left hand holding the bow too tightly. Pretty much all my problems um when I'm practicing at home come from that. And so what I'm saying is that little differences have a lot bigger impact because it's light and because it's short. So

you have issues because you you don't hold this. You know, when we when we talk about compound shooting, we talk about you know, grip what you're talking about and introducing some torque in there, you know, by by gripping it too tightly. But also you know, we've got bubble levels and we've got multiple you know, anchor point We've got we've got different points of reference to show us we're

holding this thing the same exact way every time. But you're not doing that with these bows, right Like, there's no, it's not consistent that way, right No. And I'm probably getting a bit more consistent because i haven't been practicing from a horse. I've been practicing a lot of stationary stuff for hunting, and I've been practicing, um, actually holding my draw, just getting prepared for different shot that I might need to take a bit more. But it's still

it's still not stationary against myself. It's still a floating rest. So but I am trying to be more consistent with that floating rest and Um, the biggest thing that I do that helps me is to do that little bit of a what we talked about with the male arrow, the positive pull through and push through, and that little bit of movement for me at the shot helps to keep my release more consistent and crisper. So those are some of the things I've been working with. So you

you said, you know, compounds way too easy. Rifle is obviously way too easy. Traditional normal, traditional archie way too easy. You're going to shoot a bowl that is designed to be shot off horseback, but you're gonna shoot it in all of your different sneaking around, hunting down in New Zealand everywhere else. What's what's your range with that sucker? Yeah?

Right now, I'm me myself to ten yards, okay, yeah, and that's so I might be pushed out to fifteen yards and I have shot things at fifteen yards and even over twenty yards with the old bow. But um, it's just what I've decided to tell myself now, Um, is I'd like to try to get ten yards from the animal and your what did you call it? Bush creeping? What was the word you said? I'm still hunting pretty much,

so you're bush stocking a variety. You know. That's the cool thing about New Zealand is a variety animals to hunt down there, and you're trying to get within ten yards of them to shoot them with this bow. Yeah, that's just they're big animals and it's a little bow, and I want to make sure I take the best shot that I can. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, it's it's it's really cool. I mean and want to ask you.

I know this, this has come up a lot in other places, and I know Rogan's pushing this book, but I just finished this, this book, Empire of the Summer Moon, about the Comanches, and you know there their whole thing, you know, when they really took off was they figured out how to shoot from a horseback, and they figured out how to shoot rapid fire, and it shoots from a position where they were shooting under the horse's neck at full speed with a with a fistful of arrows,

you know, kind of like Semiato style. And I don't know this, I should have looked this up beforehand, but I have to assume their bows were probably they probably were built similarly to what you're shooting. Do you do you know, I do not know, I believe that they're a bit longer. Um, just I think that in North America we shot longer bows versus this Asian style is a bit a bit shorter, and that would help with distance and um stability and everything as well for them.

So I'd have to look up what they were shooting to know for sure. I even know the Japanese mounted archer shoot really really long both. So, um, there's there's quite a few different designs that were made to be shot off horses. But why did this, Why did your just the design of the bows you shoot, why did they get so short? Then? Um, I'm not sure why. To be honest, I think that just they're a lot

easier to handle on a horse. So the Mongolians and um, everything did everything from horseback, so they probably wanted something that was just easy on the horse. Huh. It's it's interesting anybody who's listening to this, who's like, I have no idea what the hell they're talking about. You're just gonna look them up, Just just just go to YouTube look them up, because it's it's it doesn't look like the kind of thing that you could possibly shoot well,

and yet people do. Yeah, yeah, people shoot them amazingly well, and when I was shooting a lot practicing. My dad and I play archery golf when I'm home. So what we do is we tie a bottle cap hanging from like a bush, so it's like a bottle cap by a piece of floss in the wind. It's kind of a hard target to shoot, and you know, you can get consistently where you're hitting something like that with these bows, um, which is pretty cool. How often do you target practice?

I mean, how often do you shoot when when I am really seriously hunting with it, I probably am shooting and try to shoot like three times a day. Like when I was in school, I shooted in the morning before classes, you know, after class again before bed, at least three like sessions of shooting. And right now it's I'm pretty bad about it because I've been well, I just got back yesterday from a hunt, so I've been

in the bush, um, working and guiding. And it's not something like even if I did have a second where I wasn't doing a chore, doing a job or trying to headskin things or get things ready. Um, I kind of have to be social, Like I can't just go off by myself and practice shooting. So um, I haven't been practicing as much lately. Yeah, well, I mean you gotta work, Yeah, I gotta work. I mean, yeah, we're

opposite seasons to y'all. So this is our busy season was from March until and it's still going given a bit of the law. But so, how how come you haven't hunted the white tails down there in New Zealand yet? Yeah? Good question and just laziness on my part. So the hunting the white tails isn't the really big draw to me because there's so many cool species here that I haven't shot or hunted and that I would love to

hunt with a bow. Um, and probably it's much more accessible areas for where I live because there's only two populations of white tail in New Zealand and the one that I would really like to hunt on Stewart Island. Uh requires a boat to get there and you have to book the blocks about a year ahead of time. So it's a bit of planning and a lot of my work is pretty last minute right now with KIWI,

so I have to keep a pretty open schedule. But I do I need to go down there and do it, because not not for shooting the white Tail, but the experience. Like I'm one of those people I'm kind of bad at just going in sight seeing. I'm not a hiker. I love hiking with a weapon or even a camera in my hand, but I like having the purpose. So white Tail would give me the purpose to get down into a really really spectacular part of New Zealand and a place that I'd like to see and spend time in. Um,

whether or not I shoot anything. But so you haven't been down there where? Nope? No, how did How did the white Tails get there? So Theodore Roosevelt? Yeah, Um, Theodore Roosevelt actually gifted them to New Zealand, So that's pretty cool. In the early nineteen o four or five, and he gave twenty two that were trapped in snow in Missouri, I think, um put him on a boat and eighteen of them made it, which is pretty cool because that's before the Panama Canal, so they had to

go along. Um. Yeah, they took a real ride and they came into the South part of New Zealand and nine of them, um so two bucks and the rest seven does two bucks on Stewart Island and two bucks and seven does on um Lake what what something anyway, where the other herd is up up towards actually where I live, um, but that herds a little bit less accessible because a lot of it's on private land and the public land is super super bluffy, and while there are white tails still there, it's um not as ideal

as the private land around it for them to live. So there's more that are on those private blocks. So those all, all of the white tails down there in New Zealand are descendants from that the gift from Teddy. Yeah. Yeah, And I haven't hunted them, but I've heard from people that you can really see like similar traits on the

left side. They don't have p fort I can't remember, but you can see some like huge similarities in the racks because they all came from those nine deer that were in that area, and the populations have taken off. They're huge, especially done in Stewart Island. The hunting pressure from recreational hunters doesn't really seem to be enough to keep the population in check because there's no native predators

there anything. So they do quite a bit with professional callers and it's not the target of the Tenadie drops, but they do do aerial Tenadie, which is a poison drops for possums and predators Pastewart Islands and island. It's pretty pristine. They have an awesome Kiwi bird population so that you can even see kiwi's out in the day, which is a big thing for New Zealand. They're really threatened so to protect it, let's let's pretend like you're talking to some idiot from Minnesota who has no idea

what you're talking about. So you have an island down there has a population of white tails on it, but also has invasive possums, right, and they're dropping poison on the possums and that's killing some of the deer. Yep, so the deer will eat the Tenadie as well. So it's some thing that they're not really worried about because they're they're paying people to call them to shoot them as well, um to keep the population in check because

it's a pretty pristine environment. It's really uh. For as big as the island is, it's fairly untouched by humans and they've got some really awesome plant species and bird species that don't exist in any place else. So they do. Actually the white tail population in New Zealand is probably studied more than any of the other Dear, I don't want to say that for sure, but it's really well studied because they want to determine their effect on the

native vegetation as as their browsing and things. So they have a number that they've determined as like acceptable to be there, and they use other means, um, commercial shooting, professional shooting to help keep that number where they want it. Just without predators. It's completely different, dear, Dear, pest here. So there's like, if you look up online, you can read a lot about how to effectively hunt, because it's

all how to effectively manage pest species. But it will tell you tapes of information about what they're eating and where they are, what times of year and on that island down there there's public land there. Yeah, so it's all public land. Um, it's just you have to book your block and it's like booked out a year ahead of time. It's a pretty popular thing for kiwi's to go down and do a kiwi not the birds, the people than New Zealanders. So um, they love it. It's

really like Sportsman's well in New Zealand. All New Zealand's kind of like a sportsman's paradise. But the diving is just exceptional, the fishing is just exceptional, and then you have the opportunity to hunt a species that you can't hunt other places in New Zealand. So it's a pretty big draw. And has anybody ever go in bow hunt him? Or is it mostly rifle? No? No, quite a quite

a few. The compound bow um is becoming a much bigger thing here in New Zealand than it was, and it's it's ideal country for bow hunting anyway, because it's a lot of bush. Most of the deer shot within like a hundreds of the coast, so a lot of deer shot. Probably most of the deer would actually be shot on the beach because they come out and they eat the seaweed on the shore. The white tail do there. So yeah, yeah, how big did they get down there?

Do you know? Um? They're pretty small, I think similar size to Florida, So like maybe a hundred and twenty for a buck and eighty pounds for dough sort of yeah, pretty little, Yeah, pretty small, And same thing with the racks, like anything that scored over a hundred would just be a golly wamper a monster? Is that a New Zealand word. No. We had one client like three years ago where I work that he's from the States and he called things golly woffers, and my boss and I just keep on

using it as a joke. So it's become one of those things that you use enough as a joke and now you actually say it. So I love that. So when are you going to get down there and hunt those deer on the island? And good question, Well, um, depends how long the border stay close, because I would like to. I would have liked to have gone to Canada for this season, but a bit of a tricky

situation travel wise. I won't have very much work at all over the spring in the summer, so that might be a good opportunity, even though things will be cast then. But just to do some hunting for a dough with my bow myself, that would be pretty cool. And having no seasons here makes it so accessible. Um. I have enough friends that maybe somebody will have a block booked and I could go on a trip with someone. If not, I'll have to plan a bit in advance to get

a block. So the hunting down there there's public land, but you've got to reserve your spot. And is it you know, it's it's big country. Is there are you doing like kind of a uh, you know, backcountry bavy type hunting camping out there? How how are you like logistically, how do you go about it? Okay, So there's a bunch of different ways, and I have hunted a bunch of different ways. So for the Stewart Island, for the white Tail, you book your block and they have huts.

They have a hut there. Um, you can bring a tent as well because I'm not sure how many bunks are in the hut. And normally you would come in with your friends. It's like a fairly big party. And then you all go to different sections so you're not hunting over each other. Um, and you know the end reaches. But even on your phone you can get maps so you can know the boundaries of where you're hunting without

intruding on other parties and things. So that's really important to make sure that you know where you can hunt and where where you're intruding on somebody else. Um. But like I said, the coastline is where a lot of it's happening there. But it's really comfortable because the weather gets pretty bad. You're off an island, off the south tip of the South Island, so you're getting it's not Arctic, but you're getting towards there, so it can be pretty

bad weather sometimes. Um, and the white tail don't like the wind and the nasty weather at Allso, um, when do they run down there? Do you know? Yeah? I do know. So they'll start the end of April, but through May all the way to the end of May. June. Yeah, it's a different time of year anyway. Anyway, you can get the government down there to open up those borders. We can come down and yeah, crazy next year, they

need to pass out the vaccines before. I think they're gonna let the borders open just but we'll see, we'll see. We're hoping. I mean, our industry might work really relies heavily on the borders opening, so it would be great if they could. But yeah, this is a this is a bad situation for a lot of outfitters. I mean, you know, the big question here is is Canada gonna open? Canada gonna open, you know, and they rely so heavily on American sportsmen there, and you know, in some places

from Europe too. And you know when you when you get your business shut down for two full seasons, it's like that's tough to weather. Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to who I was going to be working for in Canada about potentially coming over, and he had some Canadian clients, but um, yeah, it's almost not worth running the camp for what he can charge the Canadians versus the international is a lot better. It's it's a rough deal. Uh breathe. This has been so much fun. Um, where what's the

outfitter you work for? In case people who are listening this can never actually get down there and go hunting, you ever let us in? So I work for two places where you can bow hunt. That's where I actually live and I'm right now where I rent a house, and that's Glendan Hunting and Fishing UM in New Zealand. And then where I've been doing the tars for Southern Mountain Adventures. And he doesn't like bow hunters, but if you want to go for an epic mountain experience, he's great.

So beautiful country. Yeah awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Sweet Thanks Tony. Great talk catching up. That's it for this week, folks. Make sure to tune in every week for more white tail goodness. I'm your guest host, Tony Peterson and this has been the Wire to Hunt podcast, which is brought

to you by First Light. If you still have a white tail itch that needs some scratching, head on over to our wire to Hunt YouTube channel to check out our how to videos, or go to meat Eater's YouTube channel to watch our one Week in November series. And if that's not enough, go to the meat eater dot com. I'm slash wired and you can see a bunch of articles from Mark myself and a whole bunch of our valued contributors writing on all kinds of different topics related to white tails. M