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Perfection. My film got absolutely decimated when it premiered in Toronto, which brings up for me one of my primary triggers or whatever it's like not being liked or this idea of perfection of not creating something that is perceived as right. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest chooses questions at random. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights and beliefs that have shaped their lives.
I have joy, I experience joy, it still gives me joy. That's it, that's enough. There is no perfect. That is perfect. And our guest today is someone you may think you have figured out. You've seen Chris Pine on the big screen for a long time by this point. Playing different versions of very good looking heroes must be said. Most famously he played a young captain Kirk in a few star-track movies. He was Wonder Woman's boyfriend and did a star-turn in one of the Jack Ryan films to my kids.
He will always be the charming hero from the Dungeons and Dragons movie. Thank you very much. And yes, these are all guys who always save the day. But it's clear Chris Pine is drawn to characters who push out of masculine stereotypes. They've got a vulnerability that makes them more real. And it makes you wonder what Chris Pine would do if he got to call all the shots if he got to create his own version of a movie hero.
The answer my friends is Darren Barronman or DB for short. He's the main character in Chris Pine's directorial debut poolman. And he is this intensely earnest guy who makes his living taking care of a pool in LA. But he's an activist at heart passionate about fair zoning laws and about better bus routes. And this movie is so weird and big-hearted and holds so much humanity at the same time I knew Chris Pine would be good at this game. Chris Pine, hi.
Oh Rachel, you mean that intro, I would probably keep that intro and play it play to myself as I go to bed. Ernest and Big Hearted, man. That is what it's all really what it's all about. That's sort of all brown for me too. I mean, I love an Ernest Big Hearted character and I love this guy so much. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you very much. It really means a lot. This film is all you. This film is yours. You wrote the script with your friends being gotler. You directed this bad boy.
I did. I did. I did. So of all the stories that you could put all that creative power behind. Yeah. Why this? This whole process of making pull men came from a place of my partner and I call following the giggle and it's a feeling of delight and it's this thing that I feel like as we get older we get beaten into submission by society and culture and parents and what to do and should do's in all of this and.
This idea of impish play that we have as children gets lost along the way and I think this film is my ode to the part of me that wants to smile that there's no rules or regulations to making something other than what brings me.
Extatic joy. So there is this scene with the actor Stephen Tobolowski who plays a kind of antagonist to your character and I don't want to give too much weight but it is just this most beautiful little gift in the middle of this wacko film and it's about forgiveness and it's just the most authentic.
Yeah, that I'm so glad. I mean the whole film to me reads like kind of free jazz or there's a lot happening and it's the tempo of it is kind of insane and I wanted the film to bottom out for one moment and one scene where people shut up and actually actually look at one other talk and I wanted to read as if it were like two eight year olds on a playground.
Being taught by their parents how to apologize to one another and how to say like this is what I'm going to do this and then you're going to do that and then I'd like to hug you and then we're going to hug. But shouldn't we all just keep doing that it's like we forgotten actually how to forgive each other is eight year olds I actually think it's exactly right. Well, it is a wonderful crazy journey of a movie. I appreciate you enjoying for too much. I can't.
Yeah, I really did. It's so congrats on that. Thank you very much. So how do you feel about playing the game? I love an existential card game like anyone else does. Sweet. After a quick break, Chris Pine plays the game. Rachel, I'm a fully realized man. Come on. This message comes from Apple card. You earn up to 3% daily cash on every purchase. That's 3% on products at Apple.
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mattress firm will find you the right mattress from a wide selection of top brands at every budget. Plus if you see a lower price somewhere else they'll match it up to 120 nights with their low price guarantee. Get matched at mattress firm's Memorial Day sale and sleep at night. Restrictions apply see mattress firm.com or store for details. In front of me is a deck of cards. For each question I'm going to show you three cards and then you choose one at random to answer.
There are two rules. You get one skip. If you use the skip I'm just going to swap in another question from the deck. Rule number two you get one flip. You can put me on the spot and ask me the question. I'll answer it but I'm still going to ask you to answer it. I just do it before you. We're breaking it up into three rounds. Okay. Memories insights beliefs. There are a few questions in each of those rounds and because it's a game there's a prize at the end. A physical prize. It is not physical.
It is also existential but I think you can get it. Wow. All right. I like this. Okay. You ready? I am ready. Okay. Let's get these. Round one. One. Memories. Experiences. That kind of thing. I am holding three cards in my hand. One, two, three. One. One. Who was a peer when you were growing up? Who you modeled your behavior after for better or for worse? Pass. Skip. Skip that question. Replacing it with one in the deck. What was a recurring dream you had growing up?
A recurring dream I had growing up is I grew up with this beautiful, sick and more dream my front yard. I had a dream that this elf lived in this sort of subterranean lodge that had a connection with the tree in my front yard. This little door next to my garage. I remember going in and having tea with the elf. It probably was engendered by my mother. Pulled this fantastic recurring story about this family of mice that lived in the second war.
So I think that probably dropped in my brain and percolated around and flowered into that dream. I love that though because it was mostly positive. There was not a version of the dream where the elf was like. I don't have nightmares. Thank God. I have anxiety dreams. I have fantastic anxiety dreams. That was the one growing up that I remember the most. Did you have I won't prod into the anxiety dreams but did you have any anxiety dreams when you were young or that's mostly an adult?
I did. I was a very anxious child and a pretty anxious young man and still am but have wrestled with that demon for long enough that I think we're going to still make at least for the most part now. But no, my more interesting anxiety dreams are now. Moving on, we're still in round one. Next question. I'm getting my cards straight. One, two, three. What's an experience from growing up when you realized your parents didn't have all the answers?
I remember very distinctly. I was 16 years old maybe and I was driving. My father was driving his 1984 gray sob 900 which is a fucking beautiful car. I have so many members of that car and even when my dad was broke he continually spent more money trying to make that car work much to my mother's chagrin. Anyway, but we're traveling south a Laurel Canyon Boulevard. I know exactly where it is and I remember my father saying something and I turned him in the passenger seat.
I looked at him and it was if like the shroud of the impenetrable parental or dissipated and left. And I knew in an instant that he was a boy that became a man. It was so far out. But what precipitated it? I have no idea. I don't remember that. I just remember the distinct feeling. Like that really distinct feeling. Yeah. So did that make you feel unmoored?
I bought, how do I say this? I think I've taken care of myself for a very long time. I think at that point so I think it was more of an intellectual moment. We're finished with round one and now we're on round two and this is a new deck of cards. I know. This is moving. This is the insights round. Things you've learned or things you are learning. I'm trying to cut my cards. I'm a fully realized man. Come on. I got no struggles. I'll go to one. I'll go to this one.
Yeah. What's a lesson you have to keep learning over and over? To be in awe always in reverentia, simple to be in awe always. What's yours? Whoa. I mean, I'll tell you mine, but that I want to sit with that. That's beautiful though. Mine's not as lofty or I mean, I just I'm an innately impatient person. I get that. Where does the impatience go? Are you a perfectionist? No, absolutely not. Oh my god. I wish I were more of a perfectionist. Zero now ever. So what is the impatience from?
Time. I'm urgent about time. I want to use it well. Hate wasting time. And I just want to get on with that. But so it's a constant struggle of like, I want to get on with things, but also you need to sit and find reverence in awe in everything, right? Well, again, you talk about need need to need to me reminds me of the word should. One I should, which I detest the word should. So I don't think you need to do a fucking thing. I think, you know, honestly, it's like what makes you happiest? Yeah.
But so I'm resting this away from you. What are you? Do you find yourself in points when you can't recognize awe and reverence? Of course I do. I'm on the fucking daily. Of course I do. Oh my god. Oh my god. I'm impatient as well. And oftentimes feel this kind of like oblique background static energy of need should go. Do what's happening? Why isn't it this? Why isn't it that?
All of these things that are saying the present moment is not fulfilling X. I was talking to my therapist about this and I was like, I want to be in flow state again. Like making this movie was flow state 24, 7365. Well, what is flow state other than a complete disappearance of the overwhelming reality of the March of time? We go into flow state to forget about our mortality. No, but you can't live there forever. Well, you can't otherwise it doesn't exist.
You can't live there forever and take everything away. What are you left with? You're left with sitting here now. So you better get really good at dealing with getting good with boredom, getting good with frustration, getting good with all of that. Yeah. All right. We're moving three new cards still in insights. One, two, three. Two. Two. What's a goal you're glad you gave up on? Perfection. That really was a goal? Yeah. In everything or in a particular project? No, no, no.
I had this. I was a very hard driving boy and man. And you know, and I think actually coming back to my phone, my phone got absolutely just decimated when it got premiered in Toronto, just like obliterated. I didn't read any of it. This movie, Pullman. Yeah. I didn't read any of them. Thank God. But I've heard enough to know that people really didn't like it.
Which brings up for me one of my primary triggers or whatever is like not being liked or this idea of perfection, of not creating something that is perceived as, right? Yeah. Yeah. So in many ways, this journey thus far with this has been so great to remember. I have joy, experience joy. It still gives me joy. That's it. That's enough. There is no perfect. That is perfect. There's nothing more perfect than that. And that perfect cannot be contained. You can't write about it.
You can't put it in a box. You can't give it any sort of award. It's much more special than that. And art is what is perfect art is laughable. It's laughable. It's it's an ethical. We're going to take a quick break. Then we get a glimpse into Chris Pine's safety. One of my defense mechanisms is being cerebral using words to block the emotion. Jasmine Morris here from the Storycore podcast. Our latest season is called My Way.
Stories of people who found a rhythm all their own and marched to it throughout their lives. Consequences and other people's opinions be damned. You won't believe the courage and audacity in these stories. Hear them on the Storycore podcast from NPR. Wait, wait, don't tell me isn't just jokes about the week's news. It's also life hacks. For example, here's actor Karen Allen revealing how she got her starring role in Raiders of the Lost Ark. He said, how well can you spit?
And I just found it coming out of my mouth. I said, oh, I'm going to hawk them with the best. I'm Peter Segal. If you want to increase your self confidence, then listen to the Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me Podcast from NPR. The Embedded Podcast brings you eye-opening reporting. There's something that hasn't been disclosed yet. Immersive journalism. I could smell the smoke. I could smell the dust. Personal stories. I was scared. Like, I can't protect you.
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Is there anything in your life that has felt predestined? Do I have another skip? Uh-oh. I find this a boring question, unfortunately. I'll ask you. I want you to engage on why? Why is it... Did you ever think about becoming a psychologist? Did you ever get into... Did you study psychology? Nope. But I am super curious about people. You never wanted to get into that line of work. Uh, no, because I get frustrated with people. So I'm going to flip it on you. What is yours?
Anything felt predestined? Well, I have... I don't know how I feel about destiny in general. Interesting. And if that's a concept that serves me. Um... Hmm. I... I also don't necessarily think that everything serendipitous that happens to me is coincidence. I'm not so interested in just dismissing those things, those synchronicities in life that are... Sure. I'd like to see more meaning in those. I think I... I think I was a predestined that I...
That I met my husband a few months after my mom died when I was like swearing off all romantic life. Um, I don't know, but that predestined feels like a really big, heavy word for it. But... Um... But it sort of feels like it has a glimmer of that, if that makes sense. I don't know if that fulfills the definition of something that's predestined, but that's my answer. But you came up with these questions, huh? Ha, ha, ha, ha, with help. Then why choose this question about predestination?
Oh, what? Because lots of people have... Hmm, lots of people are very interested in this idea and have real answers that say, affirmatively, yes. Things feel very... As they were meant to be for me. So, I like you prefer the story of synchronicity having meaning. That is much more delightful to me than the opposite. I would rather not believe in entropy and chaos, and I would rather believe, no, there is something to that.
There is something more important than us happening, because that gives me... That takes some of the onus of being alive off my shoulders. So, religion, religion to me makes a lot of sense. I don't engage with it personally, but it makes a lot of sense. So, the idea of predestination on a very... on topic, Pullman felt predestined, but let me explain that. I call it like a snowball. A snowball starts growing and at certain point the snowball is so fucking large, just falling down hill.
So, he can't do anything about the snowball falling down, you just get out of its way, and let the whatever snowball rock, whatever fall down the hill. That's what acting is felt like, that's what writing and directing and acting in this film is felt like. That idea of it being faded, I totally buy it. Huh. And that compromise, surrendering... I mean, you had total agency over this film.
You made this film, but in some ways it got to a point where it took on a life of its own, and then you just let it happen? Uh, no, let me again explain. The process of... like, I had this idea, I tried to find a screenwriter, it can fall through. I wrote the thing, couldn't stop thinking about it, I made as well directed. Predestine, I'm not sure. Somehow faded in like, there was no other thing that could be happening.
Yes, to your second point about the... it took on a life of its own, one of my defense mechanisms is being cerebral, using words to block the emotion. And so this film, this process of making this film, was a way for me to simply follow in this thing. Simply follow emotion. So this idea of like... it came out, this is what my brain modding wanted to do collectively together. There's the most harmonious in that regard, which is not an answer to your question, but I think...
No, but I like to or it went. Last one. Okay. Okay. One, two, three. Through New Cards, pick a card. Okay. Has your idea of what it means to be a good person changed over time? Mmm. That's my idea of what it means to be a good person. Mmm. Change. Time. Let me go Jackson Pollock this for a second. So the way that I hear that, to be a good person, I like this idea. I remember learning it when I was learning some form of meditation.
And I think it's a Buddhist meditation with a loving kindness meditation. Where do you start? You start with yourself. So a lot of what I hear that question as is how... It's my evolving sense of what it means to be a good person is to begin by being as kind as you can to yourself. And hopefully from embracing yourself that deeply, that love transmits itself outward. Do you see that manifesting in your external relationships? When you are kinder to yourself, does your life get better?
Do your relationships get better? Yes, of course. I mean, you talk about frustration, I think. That kind of like... I also think about the idea that the fist is not a closed fist, it's not an open fist, it's a fist that the ready. The fist that the ready can do anything. It can crunch, it can... You know, it can be as like delicate as a ballet answer. You want to be supple. So becoming supple allows for anything to happen. You can arrive whatever way this throne at you.
If you're rigid and things aren't conforming to what you need it to be right now, it makes you miserable and you getting miserable, then you become miserable. It can be other people. Yeah, I have found for sure that I'm marching more, I think, in that direction. You won the game. What did I win a hug? A virtual hug! You won a hug, but you also won a trip in our memory time machine. So this is the deal with the memory time machine.
You get to revisit one moment from your past that you would not change anything about. You just want to linger there a little bit longer. What moment do you choose? I was in my front yard four years ago and it was one of these days in spring where it doesn't know whether or not it wants to be hot or warm if it's raining or cloudy or sun-filled and Los Angeles. And it was the first bloom of my flowers in my front yard and I had this great big garden that kind of looks like controlled chaos.
It's like a wonderland of plant life. And I'm standing in like a foot of warm water and I'm looking up at the sky. And the clouds break and there's this like general rain of water coming down. And the sun comes crests over this gray cloud and shines its gorgeous light through all of these very delicate rain drops that are coming down and I swear to God it was like... It was like communing with God.
It was like a moment of talk about being an arch. It was like what on earth that was, you know, how awesome it is to be alive. Yeah. Chris Pine, his new movie that he wrote directed in stars and is called Pool Man. Chris, this was great. Thank you. Thank you very much. If you want more from Chris Pine, we've got a bonus Wild Card Plus episode available now. Chris talks about the tension between being an introvert and being a movie star.
One of my most favorite lines I've ever said in the part is I was raised to be charming, not sincere. And that resonates very deeply with me. You'll also get to hear last week's guests, Esa Rae, answer an extra question. Wild Card Plus is a new way to support our work here at NPR. And you get perks like sponsor free listening and bonus episodes with more for our guests. Check out Wild Card Plus by going to plus.npr.org slash wildcard.
Next week on Wild Card, we hear from poet laureate Ada Lemone. Do you think there's more to reality than we can see or feel? A 100,000 million percent. Yes. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard with help from Lauren Gonzalez. It was fact checked by Susie Cummings and mastered by Maggie Luthar. Wild Card's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romtean Auroblui. You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org.
We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then. I love the dialogue as ridiculous as it is sometimes. We're talking about the romance, the clothes, and the nudity and obviously the queen's hair. We'll see you in the next episode.