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The second I say anything, he turns into a completely different person. Cold, super awful. And then I want to definitely leave. And I feel like I'm in the worst marriage. And I feel like... Probably not even fixable. When we do argue, I shut down and I would just kind of like not be close to her for like days and days just because I feel so angry and I just hold it.
All then we've kind of adapted to being just very focused around the family and raising our kids and we lost a lot of that touch with who we are as individuals. But I feel like I'm completely by myself, in a way, just doing the best that I can for my family. They have both been the responsible child. Him, to a large family. as the golden boy, and her to a very small family growing up under communism in Eastern Europe, but where she had to be responsible for herself alone and her brother.
They've been together for 16 years, and they really carved out a course for themselves, on their own. But they're really at the tipping point. Before they come in, she filed for divorce. Each of them basically describes how they're feeling too alone. She feels abandoned by him, he feels choked by her. I have read the intake and I can see the pages of problems that they...
are wanting to present to us and the stories that accompany those problems. And I decided it's time to start very differently. So here we go. Tell me, what are the strengths of your relationship? I think a strength is that we've been together all of these years and we spend a lot of time together. Like we hardly have. lives outside of our marriage where we're just like individuals very independent we do everything together and we spend a lot of time together by choice
By mutual choice. By mutual choice. And that could be a strength, and that could also be a source of some of the other issues. And within that, we share... the same values for our kids and our kids are very central to us as soon as they came into our lives everything that we do is with them in mind to the point where
it creates a lot of blind spots for us in terms of like taking care of ourselves and of our relationship to each other. And so our kids are homeschooled. We spend so much time with them. And so from my perspective, What I feel is missing the most from my life is us having one-on-one time where we go out on dates or we do stuff, just us. We don't have really support around us because, you know, we...
lived in London, Sweden, like everywhere we go we do everything alone. I know people leave kids alone like maybe earlier than we do. But for us, I felt like it was better to a little bit wait. But the pressure of us doing everything constantly alone without the support, there's a year which goes by. We don't have a day. Yeah, easily. And so I brought up a strength and I'm also kind of drawing out what comes with that as well. She's also very good at running the home.
She's a stay at home mom. And so she's running the house often. And sometimes when there's opportunities to do things, I feel like she can make excuses to kind of like not pursue certain, for example, like I might. have a trip coming up where we can go to mexico as a couple and i'm like that's gonna be great and that might be coming from work but she's saying like no you should go with our son instead and you guys have a good time because i need to take care of the dog and
take care of things at home. So that's the pattern that we've had for years now. The pattern being I reach out and I suggest opportunities for us to connect. just you and me, and you, in your very responsible fashion, find explanations for why this cannot be. Yes. What you just are highlighting here... are what happens when you reach out with a bid for connection. Let's go do this, let's do that. Something that is a statement that pertains to the two of you.
Give me an example of one when it was received well. She came to my work holiday party. So the two of us were able to do that. It took a lot of figuring out, but I think you had a good time, right? I had a good time, yeah. Can you say this out loud? I had a good time, that's all. I mean, it wouldn't be my choice of a date, but yes. I had a good time. I had a good time. And here's the piece. I appreciate that you pushed for it.
It's true. I appreciate that you pushed for it. It's these connective tissues that are missing at this moment. Even when something good happens. It demands that you actually state something good has happened because you've become very accustomed at telling each other whatever has not happened. You're very volubile on the criticism and quite famished on the appreciations.
Yes, I feel like that foundation needs to be there where we have a connection beyond our family unit as a couple and that that would address a lot of the things where I might be failing as a partner. I just, literally, I sit here and it just came over me that I am like 100% opposite of what my parents would be.
1000% opposite. My mother would go out to every single event at her work. They would go out as much as they could. We were alone. I remember the first time I was taking care of my brother. Since I was like, we did daily groceries at the age of seven. We did entire summers of manual labor. We're growing up food. You know, it's communist country. So if you want to have different food, you got to figure out how to grow it.
My mother just is an extremely social person and workaholic. So when you combine the social life with working nonstop, you know, and I hated it to be alone with my brother that much, for sure. And I think it was like 10 when they took off first time for a weekend and for three days. And I didn't think we were ready to like live by ourselves like that. So I'm now thinking I almost made it like my mission to not do the mistakes my parents.
made with us I just want to make sure all the creatures in my care feel so loved and taken care of I am going to invite you into another way of looking at this You made a choice to do the exact opposite, but you're doing it with the same energy. Like what they do? Yeah. She had all the explanations for why she couldn't be home, and you have all the explanations for why you can't leave home. That's very true. I know. If you look at a choice, then it's different.
But if you look at the way, it's unbelievable how you set out to outdo your mother. And that... began to feel to me like it's the dominant thread of your life, is I'm going to do it better than you, mom. I'm not working outside the house. I'm not gone all the time. I'm glued. I'm glued because I missed out on love. And when we feel abandoned, our coping mechanism is to glue people to us.
The energy, I would almost say the rigidity with which you're doing it, which is why he gets all the explanations for why now, is... I have a feeling remarkably similar to her. And my goal or our goal would be to give you the permission to finally be really different. Oh, my God. I would love that. I 100% agree with what you said. I really think I'm doing different things with the same energy.
I'm listening to the boldness with which I instantly, within 10 minutes of the session, addressed with her the certitude of her story. But it is exactly because she was so convinced that she's doing differently, that what was so obvious was how similar it actually was. Indeed, mom was always gone and she would never go anywhere. But the fervor, the conviction, the non-negotiable stance that was invested in this was actually really one and the same.
And here's this crucial moment of the session. She could have looked at me and said, what are you talking about? and I would have had to completely step back and first create an alliance with her. But what happened is that it landed so strongly that the alliance was created through the intervention. And from that moment, I felt that she trusted me, that I could say things, and I hear how...
stuck she is in her story, in this narrative. I heard it also in the intake interview. Same word, same story. And so... Those are the moments when I go back to one of the first things I said when I started the podcast, which was when a couple comes to see me, they come in with a story and the goal of at least the first session is for them to live with a different story. And with her, it just went very, very, very fast. From that moment on, the door had opened.
Before we move forward, do you mind, I just want to very quickly touch up on what I think is great about us because I feel like I didn't have a goal. Well, first of all, like our mothers adore each other, which there alone is like such a... Not that it's like directly about our relationship, but the fact that my mom absolutely loves this mom, you know what I mean? I think that's very rare in like in-laws. But with us, so we...
When I met him like originally and I think I felt like I've never met anybody like him before. Just talk to you in the second person. Okay. Like I saw his, you know, I always think like hands are very special on people and like I saw his hands and I saw him working and I saw him like... Stop. Stop. Okay. Tell... Yes, it's much harder. It's much harder. So I should kill him as like I'm telling him right now. That's correct. Yes. I'd rather birth a third baby, but let me just...
He's about to say nice things. You know, there's not much really to be worried about. Look what happens when we've gotten so into the criticism and the negative feedback all the time. I know. how suddenly it becomes the most vulnerable thing to say something nice. But I love the fact that you said, I do want to first say something that I also value. Because we had left it out.
It was really the right step. Thank you, thank you. So, I love our sex and you know that. I don't know if he loves it as much as I do, but, you know, I love you so much. You know, my favorite part is when we're at home because I feel very special. You make me feel really good at home. When you're not influenced of anything outside, like your family or other people or the social.
No norms. You see me for truly who I am. And I think that's why we have such a good sex life. And how do you see me the way I am at home versus the way I'm outside of the home? Well, you know they're drastically different. That's why I'm asking. But that's not a strong point now. We're highlighting the good things. This is the bad stuff. But you love me being at home so much because of the way you are and also because of the way I am at home.
Yeah. Versus the way I am outside of the home. Yeah. That also plays into it, right? Yeah. Which it's worth chatting about as well at some point. Well, yeah. Try something else. Shall we? Sure. If somebody says your soup was delicious, I love your soup. What do you think? is a better response. Thank you. I enjoy hearing that. Or, but you don't like my apple pie. That's true. That's a good point. Okay. I know you are eager, but nothing will change if you can't re-establish that more tender, kind.
appreciative part of the relationship and not just about the unit. And she was talking about you. She actually was not talking about the family. That's right. But I don't even know if you could hear it. So we'll do it again. You want me to keep going, saying good things? Whatever else you wanted to say. And you can do it face to face or you can whisper it. I mean, the easiest for me would be me telling you. No. Why? Because for what? Because it's the easiest. I know it.
It's easy to say things to me, but it doesn't really change the dynamic between the two of you. Just practice it. Okay. You know, I love how you are with a voice. Of course, I think you're the best dad. Thank you, darling. In some ways, as far as your interaction with them. Of course, I think you could spend more time with them when you come back. Oh, my God, now we're doing the same thing. Excellent.
I caught myself. Yes. Yes. That filter is essential. Perfect editing. Thank you. She heard what I had said to him. and she caught it when she did it herself. Basically, it had come to a place where they couldn't say one positive statement that wasn't qualified, and that didn't have a but in there.
And when there is a but, we tend to hear the second part of the sentence more than the first. So there was a reason that I started the session asking them, tell me about what's good, what's strong, what's an asset. Partly is because I could sense they were just eager to plunge into the problems. And we are better able to deal with the problems when they sit on top of a foundation of something that is good. So that's why I had asked. And it's such a...
powerful diagnostic question. Are people actually able to say this without qualification? Are they able to say to the person that they're saying it to? Or do they look at me? Because it's actually too vulnerable to look at a person and say, you know, you are a fantastic father. You're my preferred lover. I loved your hands from the first day I met him. And she tells him a lot of very special things.
She realizes that when you've developed a kind of a carapace and a defensive position in a relationship, saying nice things to the other, to their face, has become quite vulnerable. And of course, I also love how you are with my family. I see why everybody loves you at your job. But just because the way you treat people, you know, it's so rare. And, you know.
i kind of love how we did everything alone in a way and i love how we always toughen up like the hard times yeah because it's like we're always alone right Because, like, we're so good together sometimes. I feel like we're so perfect. Because we know each other so well. And because we, I think at the end of the day, we still feel like... We've never met anyone like each other, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same way. The word alone is at the heart.
of her experience and in part she was alone when mom wasn't home and was always out but her experience now is that we are alone we are two breathing the strength into one and therefore i am not alone in the way i used to feel I'm alone and strong. I'm not alone and scared because we are together. But there is an aspiration toward merging that also is part of the way she describes. the oneness. And then one of the things that's difficult for us is how different I grew up.
with my family and when i interact with them i wonder how you see me and what it does to you when i interact with my siblings with my parents i often feel like you think i love them more And I want to spend more time with them. Or when we involve other people in our family, sometimes it's hard because of how different they are culturally and because of my relationship and the way I am with them.
I guess because of the way I was raised, we're so close. And that put a lot of extra tension. I mean, that's why I filed for divorce, because the way his family is a massive problem for us. And it's like there's this part of me which I love them so much. You filed for divorce? Well, I mean, like almost. I emailed his mother that I'm doing it. It was like five weeks ago. I was like, that's it. This was the closest we've ever been to splitting up.
And it's a situation where... One second, one second, because we're about to shift. It's an amazing non sequitur. From all of what you just said, you go into the, that's why I filed for divorce? From family, yeah, because of its relationship. And what happens to all what you just said? I was that hurt that I thought it erased it. I don't know. It was secondary. Because at the end of the day, I feel like.
If he's not going to be with me all the way and take my side, I need to be around and healthy until at least the kids are like 18 and can go and do whatever they want. So if I am the only one making sure I'm standing, then... Yeah I did think it was bigger than all the good stuff. The very behavior that she is bemoaning vis-à-vis his family and how he takes their side and how he loves them so much.
is exactly what initially attracted her, which was that he loved them so much. And so she thought, here is someone who knows to love, to be kind, to be loving in a family, to be a good dad, to be a good husband, to be everything I never had. But now that it wasn't all about her, it became intolerable, too painful. And I was very surprised when she said, that's why I filed for divorce. First of all, given what had just preceded. But also because...
In fact, that is partly why you think you filed for divorce now, but it is equally why you married him 16 years ago. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? comes from the NPR podcast Up First. Staying on top of breaking news takes more energy and attention than ever before. But imagine, how much time could you save if you limited your news consumption to just 15 minutes a day?
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Up First is a daily show that covers the three most important stories of the day in just 15 minutes. Episodes touch on the essential stories you need to know and cover topics like international conflict, the new administration, and so much more. I listened on the train on my way to the studio today, and I really appreciated how short and to the point episodes are. If you're looking for more news and less noise, you can listen to the Up First podcast from NPR today.
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who is not mentally all there, I felt like he betrayed me more than like if he had an affair, basically. Because he knew how hurtful that was. And for me to find this text message, after he's telling me he's not socializing with this person, not talking to him, I find this text message saying, oh, I love you and I want to hang out with you. She's with the kids. We can hang out.
This guy makes up a story that I named our first family pet after nickname he had in high school. This guy is like a 50 year old man. Somehow I'm supposed to know that his nickname in high school was something. I named my dog belittling him by doing this. His family believes that I tried to belittle their relative by calling our dog, making up the name, choosing this...
Like, most insane... Can I just... Where are you going while all of this is happening now? I can respond to it. Like, I can... You're just waiting for your turn? I can certainly speak to it. No, no, no, don't. Don't. Because the whole situation has very little to do with the dog and the relative. And the names and all of that, you are mired into the story.
It's the same as what I said about your parents. You're mired in the story and you're not seeing the pattern. You're not with me. That means you're against me. It's either or. You cannot say this and do that. Ambiguity is inexistent in this situation. Finding ways to appease people so that one can continue to be in relationship. cannot feature here. And you're about to throw your entire family, 16-year relationship, everything you've just highlighted that you value so much.
into the dumpster because of this? I don't want to demean it or devalue it, but it's like, seriously? Because I feel like the justice of being accused of something I haven't done. And then he accused me of witchcraft if I send bad vibes to his art projects. Where is your sense of humor? Where is your... Oh, this is an interesting plot. This is quite a play. It's so insane that it should be like a freaking... And where is your bonding around what families sometimes can create such elaborate...
schemes and stories. And where is your good deal with your family? I would have all of that if he was with me, if I felt he was with me. No. Here is the thing. If he agreed with you... and just said yes, like a good puppy, you would lose much respect for him. Because if he's a good puppy with you, he's going to be a good puppy with everybody. and you like strong people with personality and integrity. What you're asking him, if he was to do so, would lessen your esteem for him.
You'd feel better because he sided with you. Which he did at home. But you won't have much respect for him. Because what you just said is, I like your decency. I like the way you treat people. I like it for others, but when it's me, I need you to just join me. So you find...
Him expressing his love for the person who caused me so much hurt. You find that decent. Because I find it pacifying mental illness. It's never going to get fixed. I think that by putting yourself in the center of the plot... You are not helping him and he can't think. Well, that's for sure. Because he is busy making sure that he doesn't have you on his negative side. And then he can't really look at what's happening with the family.
Because you've made it about you. They brought me in. My mother is not well and her receiving an email about how she's decided to end the relationship and being asked not to contact us. My mother's not in a good health. Yeah, but now we're going to start blaming people for heart attacks. So wait a minute. No, yes. I'm just saying.
Your families get along. Your first sentence is about how the mothers love each other. Your next thing is about how great of a dad he is and how much of a sense of family he has. And then the next thing is about how you are going to regulate how he's going to handle his family.
I mean, if the guy is not well and out of his mind, then he needs to be the central figure. But you've made it about you. And now it's about the two of you and he's betraying you because he told you one thing and he went to handle his family another way. Because that's what we do in a collectivist culture. You tell everybody what they want to hear. I think you're right. And it's an art.
If you want to navigate all these relationships, you have to tell each one that their soup is the best. There's a lot of nuance. There's a lot of... Oh my God, so true. It's not simple. And especially when it's your own family too. Like we're talking about someone that's very close to me that I see as a close mentor and someone that I owe.
as well. Like most of my family, they've done everything they could to make sure that I'm okay. So for me, it's not as simple as just speaking my mind, saying why immediately feel. There's also this currency. that goes back and forth. Right. But your strength is that you say things just as they come out. His strength is that he can hold it a little bit. scan the landscape, and then navigate and negotiate the multiple connections. And you can turn to him and say,
you are betraying me, you are weak, you are pandering to everybody and all of that. But you can also look at him and just say, It's quite amazing how you are able to juggle all these things. And then you can say to him, what do you think? Because you become artful at knowing what everybody else thinks and needs and wants.
And that usually goes hand in hand with not really knowing what you think anymore because you're busy in everybody else's psyche. And that's where your strength comes in. And now you start to have complementarity of high quality. But this is a missed opportunity. In effect, this becomes a marital crisis. You fight for divorce. And my mom is very heartbroken over all of this.
Another thing I could maybe share is that us moving back to the States from Europe, part of what we were excited about is to have the kids close to my family. And so this... It changed everything. We didn't expect it. It put a lot of tension and pressure, created a lot of problems for us. What she's sharing here is probably just a percentage of things that have come up in the family that have cost. issues for us. But they're all about the same thing. Who do you fight for?
It doesn't matter what the situation is. That's why I'm saying don't get mired in the story, in the details of the plot. The dance is the same one each time. You stand up for them, not me. You're in a triangular competition all the time. The tension that's highlighted between them is that he cannot speak about himself outside of the context in which he sees himself vis-a-vis his family. There is something in the way that he talks about the mother, the uncle, the sister, that it's understandable.
why she experiences this in somewhat of a competitive way in which she needs to carve her place. But on the other end, it is also so that... She really feels that he's there for her only when there's nobody else around, not physically and not internally for him. In that triangular competition, you learned where and when. Because that usually doesn't start in adulthood. It's a triangulation. The only thing I can think of is when my dad grew up, the girl was extremely favored.
You know, like my dad always wanted a dog, never got in. And the second she could talk and said she wants a dog, there was a dog, you know, things like this. Were you your father's favorite? He implemented identical. Like, I mean, I could burn the house down. Did your mother tell him that he kept putting you first? No.
My mother completely emotionally neglected me all my life and turned all her love to my brother to even it out. All right. Welcome to the family plot. You will recognize that it's the same thing each time. It's always about who comes first, who gets the affection, who gets the loyalty. Because the way I grew up, that I was competing for my mother's love. Him proving to you that you are number one is the greatest victory you can have. I mean, it's interesting. We've talked about the two of you.
And in a way, we've talked more about your families than you. They're very, very present in this, but you're not always clear what their presence is doing to the two of you. When you start talking about how your mom is still affected, you are in effect saying to her, my mom's well-being matters more than yours. She's not off. You don't experience your sense of self as separately from the family that you come from. Yes.
And you have tried very hard to create a sense of self that is different from the family that you come from without realizing how tight you are. Yeah. And so the question is, how do you bring some more freedom and space and independence between the two of you and more adult connection between the two of you? So that when you ask him things...
You don't just ask him things from a family triangular perspective, but you ask him things as a partner. The things you want from him are not from your partner. They are all corrective measures to your childhood. That's so crazy. But I also... Because the kids, I don't want to defend myself, but I also never want them to feel the way I felt. I know that. Oh, do I know that. The choice of homeschooling them and the choice of not finding anybody to leave them with over years.
When that happens, I'm going to protect them from ever having to feel what I felt and hurt me so badly. And you're doing it probably beautifully. Your kids don't feel lonely, but the two of you are feeling more lonely than is necessary at this moment. He can't convince you to go do something with him. Fun. playful, alive. And there's a resentment that builds up inside me because there's a lot that I bottle in as well. Like my emotions, I don't express them all the time.
I'm more thinking about feelings rather than feeling them in my body. And so when we don't get that time to ourselves, I become more resentful. I start to distance myself. Then if I spend time with my family, I feel like sometimes she might be a little bit jealous. I might go out with my sister and she might tell me like, oh, what did you guys do? And I can already feel that there's some kind of a questioning or attention.
And I can tell you why. Because he has like a different measurement for people, the whole world and his family. When he's with his sister, she's the most brilliant person he knows. He wants to take pictures with her. He loves her. All these things he never does with me. He never wants to take photographs with me. Don't do that. Because you're doing it on the heels of him telling you, I want to go out with you. I want to have fun with you. I want to be playful with you. And you are...
more hooked to your jealousy and your competition than your desires with him. It's off. You understand? He doesn't want to take pictures with you. You repeat that all the time. And it becomes the story, because relationships are our stories, and we have this tendency to confuse our stories with the truth. All of us.
But honestly, like when he says his mom is not well, I want to eat this table right now. How mad that makes me. Because his mom is not well for a very, very long time. Hold on. Because we were talking about the two of you. So for a minute, we're not going to bring a family member in here. Okay. We're going to just meet the couple. Okay. And I want to make sure that you get the space. You know, you were talking about how you're holding things in.
Yes. And how, in effect, you find yourself constantly in a choice between speaking up and saying what you think or feel versus managing her reaction. And the more you manage her reaction and the more resentful you are becoming. And the more resentful you become and the more you take distance. And the more she starts to feel jealous. And the more you have to navigate.
the competing needs of other people. And the less, what did you say so beautifully? I think about my feelings because I can't feel them. Right. And that's detrimental to me, to my well-being. It's funny, he told me the other day, he's like, the second I saw you, I knew I can be like a yes guy. So you find me interesting, basically. Yes, I couldn't agree with you more. And you're losing that.
I'm losing that. And you're not going to like yourself and you're not going to like her. Yeah. And instead of waiting till she agrees with you... Bring your initiative, not as a task, as a need, as a wish. Right, so I should stand my ground, be more assertive. But not in opposition to her.
You are assertive at this moment when you are in opposition to her. Sometimes you may just say, let's do this and then be reassuring to her. Sure, absolutely. Yeah, and what I would expect is... her being in opposition to me at that point i tend to be very optimistic and i tend to be like hey let's do this this is going to be fantastic it's going to be good for us we're going to experience some joy right
And she might be like, no, you might only want to do this for selfish reasons or like you're making these types of friends because it serves you in a particular way. And so that's why she's not interested and she doesn't join. that call to do something different. She won't join me in in the experience. Okay, and then what happens? That can escalate into an argument. It could turn into something quite big where she starts bringing up things from the past.
that i haven't done well and then at that point i'm just like all right so so that's part of the reason why i'm very careful about what we choose to do like the holiday party is an example like I knew that maybe she wasn't going to be like 100% thinking this is going to be the funnest thing in the world. But I did know that at the end of it, she's going to be very glad and happy that she got to do it. But there was some work. How did you do it? How did you manage?
Have her join you. Get me out of town. Yes. I like the humor with which you... If you could have some of that in your house, it would go longer. The humor. Humor is important. getting her to really imagine herself being next to me and how important it was for me to have her there. I kept telling her, it's going to be great for you to come. I want everyone to meet you. Lovely. And she was in and out of it.
Like she was like, no, I'm not going. Yes, I'm going. There was a dance. She gives you a run for your money. You're good at this. My God. This is to hone your chops. Every time she resists, you tell her, I so love how you're making me stand up for myself. How you're strengthening my will. In the example... of the holiday party they highlight once more what i called earlier in the session the high quality complementarity between them on some level not consciously at all he chose her
because she would help him stand up for himself. She would actually help him say what he needs, say what he wants, which she's very good at, including when he wants her to come with him to the party. And on the other side, she chose him with a sense that he could bring her the warmth of family that she never had and the love. that he could share with them, she imagined he could also bestow upon her. And that complementarity by which one person
brings connection and the other person brings individuation is a very powerful pool of attraction between two people. We are in the midst of our session there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us Support for Where Should We Begin? comes from Nutrafol. Many of us have had what you might call a hair journey. Maybe you tried hundreds of sample sizes until you found the perfect product.
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This week on Unexplainable, the final installment of Good Robot, our four-part series on the stories we tell about AI. So what I want you to do first is I want you to open up ChatGPT. This time, the robots. And I want you to say, I'm going to give you three episodes of a series in order. Come for our jobs. Why are you laughing? I don't know. It's like a little creepy. Good Robot, a four-part series about AI from Julia Longoria and Unexplainable, wherever you listen.
Today Explained, Sean Ramos from here with Nadira Goff, staff writer at Slate. Nadira, Disney's got a new movie coming out this week. Is everyone enchanted? No. I think that there is a lot of confusion and a lot of controversy around Snow White. Magic mirror on the wall. Who is the fairest of them all? But yeah, it's safe to say that not everyone is enchanted. This was my father's kingdom. A place of fairness. Wept the queen.
Changed everything. Now I have to ask, as a student of the Brothers Grimm, how many controversies are there? Well, you're in luck. You're so lucky today is your lucky day because there happens to be about seven. Oh my goodness! It's a human. What did you think I was? Nothing. Ghost. Snow White and the seven controversies on Today Explained. Come have some fun with us. You deserve it.
One other small thing that I might add here. So for New Year's, we went out of the city, we went upstate. At the best time of my life. Those are the things she loves to do the most, where there's the fewest amount of people, where we're not in public, where we're in nature. But that's what I was going to tell her. While I tend to now go more into the serenity of nature, like we were making fires in this upstate property, there was absolutely nothing else to do.
we were making the fires with the kids at night we were making puzzles there was no technology doing my husband's idea of good time take the kids grab them and eat junk food and watch movie on time square you know for me that's like That's a big screen. You take them from screen they looked at home, from screen on TV. And then I was like, well, so since you were already up there, why didn't you take them to Central Park? You know, because I like present activities. I like much more pure...
and healthier in every single way versus his idea, the things he wants to do. Of course I like to see movies here and there but like so many times he offers ideas and he doesn't offer help with the logistic like how are we going to do it then so if we're going to do this are you going to help me to okay may i yes He comes with an idea, you say, what should we do to make it happen? Instead of even vocalizing it. You are in the criticism and into the resentment before anything.
And if they want to schlep together to Times Square, your kids are being homeschooled. It's not like they're going to get contaminated. Yeah. You care about certain things and it's very important and you value them. It doesn't have to be purist in order for it to stand. It will stand. So when he comes with an idea, you're not responding to the idea. You're responding to your abandonment of this man. The response is instantly, I'm all alone with everything. It's a response from your childhood.
Me with the kids is like me with my brother. And I have to attend to everything. And you fall in the trap every time. You see? What can I do? Well, you tell me. You're smart. It's a pattern. It's a pattern. Don't play helpless. Because you take on the role of the victim in the house. I'm so good. I'm so kind. I care about everyone.
I'm always happy to be wrong, and maybe that's part of it too. No, but you come home with an idea, and she goes into the book, but who's going to do this and who's going to do that? Mm-hmm. What do you do? Sometimes it does upset me to the point where we argue about it. It makes me feel like I hate that I have to get to this level where we have to discuss it in this manner. Don't! See, the thing is that you respond as if she's the one leading you. I have to lead more. Yes. Yeah.
Some ideas are easier to implement than others. Sometimes I tell her, hey, why don't you go with your friends? Because I see it does her a lot of good as well to be doing things on her own. So I'm like, why don't you go with your friends and just take a trip? And that's something I do bring up pretty every now and then. So it's also those types of ideas. Has she done it? Never. He's never been with the kids and the dog alone.
I took the kids to Europe. I had all of them for six weeks. He goes on business trips seven days at a time. So why don't you? She has the opportunity sometimes. No, we all know that. But why don't you is not about you. Because you're going to think I'm crazy even more, but... No, I have not had that thought. Because I don't think he takes care of all of them as well as I would. I have not had that thought. And I want you to not necessarily. Okay.
Take that detour. Okay. So what did you say? Because I don't think he takes care of them as well as I do. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not there. And I guess at the end it goes back to my childhood where the fraction of... Me leaving them and possibly them having like a lower quality of everything in a way, you know what I mean? Like they're not going to go to park for as long. They're not going to maybe, you know, now as I'm saying it, it sounds so insane.
Honestly. It's not insane. It's raw. It's fragile. It's traumatic. Yeah, I feel like I can't meet them. Right. But not because of him. It's actually not. Okay, we need to establish that once. You need to establish that. It's not because of him. There is a level. I called it rigidity. I will control this to the nth degree. To make sure that there is not an ounce of what I felt in my childhood that my kids will feel. Yeah. But what is that, Jesus Christ?
How did I took it to that level? It's almost like unreasonable, you know what I mean? It's not almost. But it's understandable. There's something so... Not grounded in reality, but grounded in trauma. Grounded in early deprivation. Where it becomes a dogma. To the point where him one minute with the kids alone, after I've described how much he's a fantastic father, is inconceivable to me. And it's not about him. 100% agree.
But what I would love is opportunities for me to also grow as a father, to be alone with my kids, for me to do things my way, not just the way she wants them. If you are able to vacate the space and let him take over, it's not just... To see if he's capable and if he can do it his way or as well as you. Because you're not the boss of the criteriums here of what is good parenting. But the most important reason for you to do this.
is that if you can allow him and you can begin to trust him, you will finally take care of the original wound that you're not. all alone with everything on your shoulders. No, I agree. I have 100% to do it. I have to switch everything. It's not just to see if he's capable. It's actually... It doesn't even matter if he's capable. I mean, we all know he's capable. They're more than capable. Okay. Can you say that to him?
I know you're capable of doing it, even if you do it a little bit differently. I know you're very particular, but yeah, I can... I know nobody's going to be dead when I come back. There's things that I could do at home, but what I also need is like the... feeling good and that you trust me and that we're like on this mutual mission so when she doesn't trust you this may help you it's not because she doesn't think you're not capable
When she doesn't trust you, it's because she is holding on tooth and nail to that voice inside of her that says there's nobody there for you. And you have to do it all alone. She's dying to let go of that voice, but she also has built an entire life around that voice. And so she is afraid that if she loosens it a little bit, the whole thing can dissolve on the spot. It's irrational. It's not real. But the fear is very real.
And that I'm a bad parent also. Yes, yes, yes, of course. Because you're trying to be the parent that your mother never was. You know, it's all that theme. So when you are talking to her and she doesn't trust you... Don't start saying, I'm capable. Just tell her you're not alone. That's a great tip. I love that. Do you understand? It's about... talking to that part of her that is afraid to loosen this thing even a millimeter because her entire coping survival strategy is organized around this.
This idea that if you, what was it, don't take the same amount of time in the park is going to make her be a bad mother. It's intense, it's extreme, it's debilitating. And it's not allowing her to go away with her friends, to go see a movie, to go with you to a party. She's drying up in her own well. And when you think she's controlling
which of course she is, because control is the mechanism with which she tries to protect this identity. In your head, just think fear. Fear is not the word, terror. Tell me what has been your experience hearing all of this? Well, absolutely mind-blowing, first of all. I can't believe it. It sounds so true to me. It rings like...
With every fiber of my body, I think that's what it is. You know, that's where it all comes from. So I'm shocked that I didn't see it myself, where it comes from. I'm shocked I didn't see how rigid that was. But... I almost feel like I have a green card now. Like I'm not a bad mom if I do that, you know. Well, that you have like now.
Some kind of permission or confirmation that you can take care of yourself too. Yeah, it doesn't make me mad mom. Of course. It's so embarrassing. Makes me feel like I'm not an intelligent person, you know. How could I not see that? I put it together myself. It's always easier to see it in others. And it's not that you didn't see it. It's that... The part of you that made that vow a long time ago is organized around you not seeing it. Otherwise, you're going to go off for a weekend.
And it has tried to convince you your entire life that one evening away is going to affect their entire future. Yeah. And it is... First of all, inaccurate. Second of all, you may end up proving your mother wrong, but you may not do right by your kids. And my marriage, probably. Your marriage, that's a given. That is not a maybe. Here's the irony. This is the first time in the history of humankind that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple.
On the long list of what your kids need, attending to your relationship is huge. Because it actually will give them the family that you so much wanted them to have. It's the most important thing. This is actually not where the session ended. They had planned to go all together. with the family because the children actually had accompanied them and were waiting the entire time in another room and the family had decided to go for lunch in the neighborhood where she used to work and
The suggestion was that after lunch, dad and the kids would do their thing in town, picking up on him being alone with the children in the city. But for her... to go and do something of her own and especially to walk around in the old neighborhood where she used to work before she was married when she still felt free and playful and partied a lot and had a very different connection of who she was then.
What happened to them was actually quite interesting and I invite you to listen to the follow-up on my subscription on Apple Podcasts where I put all the follow-ups. of many of the sessions that we do. But in listening to this session, right now as I arrive at the end, it's clear that I did a lot of work with her. I didn't focus on her because the issue was bigger on her side.
I focused on her because I tend to go where I think there is greater flexibility and nimbleness for change. And I felt it. Whenever I would say something, I knew that she was loosening. the knots that were tying her together. And so if she could shift, he would follow. This is in case you want to know a little bit about what goes in the mind of this particular couple's therapist.
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.