What you are about to hear is a series Esther calls the Arc of Love. Each session centers around a couple's story, whether it's issues of trust and betrayal, care and aggression, closeness and distance, repair and rupture, polyamory or monogamy. The episodes can be listened to in any order you want, but were curated with the beginning, middle and end. As always, none of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. Each
episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. I guess in a nutshell, she has put her life completely on pause while mine still moves forward. And again, she's had to do that as a necessary factor for us to make this work. The first couple that we meet is in its formation stage. It is a young couple in their mid-twenties.
They have been together since college. They always say it's really strange that we went to Iowa to school to find the other Mexican kid. For the last two years, they live a long distance relationship where she lives in Mexico and he in Texas. I'm the one who travels. And if he can get a secure job in the US, then that's what we're going to do. It's my end of the bargain. For now, when she's a citizen, things can balance out. But I feel like it's a lot.
The circumstances of life are propelling them into a rid of commitment that they may have not followed if they both were in the same place. There's this fear for both of us that immigration laws might be changed. I would want to give you the privilege of being a citizen and being established here. So it makes us act now because things might change legally. And we don't want that to affect us.
And so they grapple with the decision to get married and immigrate and to become a citizen and all kinds of things that sometimes seem to pit immigration against romance. It's just like so business. Like, okay, this is what we have to do. Okay, we have to go sign this paper and we have to get married. Okay, great. And where is the romance in that? This is where should we begin with Astair Peron? Every love story takes place at a particular time and place in history and geographically.
And you are living that. But at the same time, you also have an opportunity to decide what you want to do with the external forces so that it doesn't just feel like a big hand is hovering over you and forcing you to do things. Or do you feel that you have no sense? I think that part of the hand that's moving is that she's older and I feel like she is getting closer to the point of wanting a more stable life and wanting a sort of
greater commitment. So there's that hand hovering over at least me personally. But there's also the external forces of the political context. And I feel like I need to start delivering on a certain maturity level and a certain mindset in order to keep this relationship going and moving forward. Alright, we have a lot to talk about. We have a one-shot deal. But who's in the family? My mom, my dad and I have two brothers that are younger.
I'm the oldest. And you carry the traditional role of the eldest in the family. Do you translate papers for them? Do you sign for them? Are you also not only the first born, but also the first American? Yeah, I gave my mom citizenship. My parents met once before they got married. They talked for like three months over the phone. And then I'm the oldest. I was born here. I gave my mom citizenship. So you've done this already once.
Yeah. To a woman. Yeah. That matters a great deal to you. Yeah. But now that you make me think of it, it was actually a very big moment because my parents have a very traditional marriage. My mom, she's here because he's here. She never really worked. And I mean that in a respectful way. Of course, she worked. She raised three boys, which is a very hard job. But she never had a professional career. So over the last few years, my parents
have had a lot of fights, relationship fights, a lot of relationship issues. And I've been thrown in the middle of it where my dad comes to me. Your mom did this, your mom did that. My mom comes to me. Your dad did this, your dad did that. And they only confided me because I'm the oldest. And I exerted a lot of energy trying to help them out. And she's very dependent on him. So I think that giving me on my parents and on me, yes. So it was very important to
me that I was able to give her the ability to feel independent. As she expressed it, because now she can go out and get a job if she wanted to leave him. She doesn't have to worry about his money because she can go out and do her own thing. So I'm not saying that. No, deeply you feel that? I think so. I've told her. You have. And as painful as it was, it felt good. Exciting, like, to see her try. Take this in. It's okay. I just love my mom. I don't understand relationships as well as you do her.
Oh, God. I think you understood relationships from the cradle on. If you acted the way you did, and if you feel the depth of feelings about them and her and the power structure and her being trapped and wanting to at least give her the agency to be able to leave if she wants, etc. You have understood some major pieces about relationships without any degree it's called life. Thank you.
As an American born at the age of 21, a child can give citizenship to the parent. For this young man to give his mother citizenship was equivalent of setting her free, of allowing her the rights to decide on her professional life and on her very unhappy marriage. In the aftermath of her becoming an American citizen, his mother is able to start a business
of her own, which she now runs with her husband. And that in itself has created a major improvement in their relationship, but also a massive shift in the power structure of their relationship. She is no longer economically dependent on her husband and she no longer needs to be as emotionally dependent, therefore, on her son. So you have already had to feel very responsible for a woman and her life choices. This is take two of the similar story. You've
had to decide which menu we're going to be, that wasn't going to be like your dad. And you took tremendous strength and pride in helping your mother be free, not be tied and dependent and without any options and helping her to know that she was not alone and that somebody saw what was going on for her. She begged me for it. And you get along with her, because that would be crucial. Yes, I get along with both his parents and his siblings as well.
Say a word for her. She and I see each other often just a two of us. We'll go get coffee or I'll help her out with some of the business things. So I think she enjoys, because it's all women. So I think she enjoys having someone to tell the woman to enter the system. Yes. So she, I think she really likes hanging out and just talking to someone. But I have a question to you, because you have been a responsible son. In many ways you
have been what they call in my jargon a parentified child. It's sometimes the child who has to become a parent. I feel like that. And to take on the role of the parent and the responsibility of the parent in a family. And when you think about you feel like it's more responsibility. And part of you says, will I ever have a chance to play in life? Is there ever a period where I don't have to be responsible? I don't know. You do, right? Do you know that?
This has not to do with how much he loves you or doesn't love you. Do you understand that? No, it doesn't. I just... Being... I started at my job that I'm now when I was 23 and I went out to get this job because I knew that... Or I felt like my end of the deal was to make sure that as long as she can't work to the extent that I can, that there needs to be a roof over her heads and there needs to be food and there needs to be a car. I was
happy to do that. Obviously, that's my end of the bargain for now, right? Because this is temporary. Like when she's a citizen, things can balance out. But I feel like it's a lot. I've had to work very, very hard. And I feel like I'm 35 years old sometimes. I feel like I have kids, you know? Do you feel she gets that? Or do you feel that at this point each of you is in touch with what is hard for you? I think we're in touch with what's
hard for people. And you compete for who has the hardest. Yes, we do. That's the problem. And who wins in this impossible competition of the title of Greater Victim or who sacrifices more or who has given up more of their youth? I think no one's won lately. I know. I know she has told me that I don't sacrifice as much as she does. And that's been very hurtful. He's
an adult. That her sacrifice is not important. I know it is. You know, even just traveling here to New York and taking a flight, I tell myself I can't be doing this twice a month and she does. I wouldn't be able to. So I understand. But I think she doesn't think I understand. And that's very hard. And how come? I think that I know he understands logically. He's an intelligent person. So he understands what I'm saying. What I mean is if you understood
then you would change some behaviors of yours. So for example, then there are times when he will work like he said many, many hours. And then he comes home and he talks more about work and then he wants to go to bed. And for me, it gets a little frustrating because he has work to go to. He has other things to do outside of our lives and then he comes home and he's too tired to connect with me. And I'm just, you know, I'm here because of you.
I get it. Yeah. And what is your life like in Mexico? It's actually pretty great. When I'm in Mexico, I'm with my parents and my sister who still lives at home. And I work from home. So I work at my computer. So you work from home in what sense? I work helping women, mostly women start their own businesses and put their businesses online. So you have a career. Yeah. I do work. And you can do it from anywhere. Correct. It's not like you
have put that part. Okay. I wasn't clear on that. So the reason why I started doing that work was because I started with you. Yeah, exactly. But because of the travel, it's not like I can establish myself anywhere. It's not like I can have employees and grow and everything like that. So it's a balance, definitely. When did the pressure start to mount? How many years were you together in the US versus a part? It's about to be two years. Yeah, it's almost
two years. And at this time, when you don't see each other and you get into arguments, you think it's because you don't get to be enough together. But then when we are together, you end up in things arguments as well and then you wonder what are we going to do. Yeah. So there's less and less joy and there's more and more friction. You say, I do everything I can and you say, obviously, you don't. And then you break down and you say, you have
no idea. I'm killing myself at my job. I'm doing the old thing that men have always done. I try to take care of you the best way I can and she still comes and says, but that's not the way I really need you to. Yeah. And then you say, you know, what more can I give you than my entire life being, you know, dictated by our circumstances. But then when you come together, you don't get to actually experience the closeness because you constantly
arguing about the lack of closeness. Yeah. Yeah. All right. What are we going to do? I don't know because as is it's going to wear you down. Definitely. Well, I don't know which one of you is going to snap first and just say, I can't do this. I already did about a month and a half ago at my job, I had gotten a really big promotion back in November. I felt like, and I told her this, she didn't like that I got promoted. First of all, we're
very jealous people of each other. That's not a secret because one of the first things that she asked me when I got promoted was, so now there's going to be women messaging you. You're going to give them your number. And I immediately thought we're going to have problems. The way she expressed it was, she felt like, I loved my job more than I love her. In my mind, they were two different things. That description that she had before.
Which one? He gives everything to work and when he comes home, he talks more about work and then he checks out. And on occasion, I'm left feeling rather lonely. Fair? Fair. Okay. That's what we're talking about. It's not you love more is that when you are as absorbed as you are. And this idea of you love your job more than you love me, this is off. Don't... Yeah, no. That's how I meant. Okay.
How do I find a way to love what I do to be completely invested in it, etc. But when she visits, I change something so that I have something left inside of me to also give some energy to us. Otherwise, I put everything in work and I bring the leftovers home. And then when I come home, all I really want to do is chill. I put my feet up and not have to make any effort and not have to talk. And then she can say, what am I here for? You
completely exhausted. It doesn't seem to make a difference if I come or if I don't come. I'm imagining a narrative like this. Yes, of course. Hot or cold. Very hot. Fix it. Or would you add to it? Because I think that he... That doesn't mean any of this is true. Right. That's what I feel. So I think that when I'm asking you questions about are people going to be texting you, etc. I know it's easier to think, oh, maybe she's jealous.
Rather than think she's just thinking, this is going to take up even more of my time and more of my attention. Now I have to be answering the phone when I'm not at work as well. Can there be both? Yeah, but I think that it's... We have tried to work on the jealousy stuff. And I feel like when it comes to the work, that's not what's in my mind. I'm just more concerned about what is the jealousy. I think that it was hard because it's always
been... I was older than he was when we met. I'm still older than he is, but... That won't change. Never gonna change. But I think that I met him and I knew of him and I knew who he was. I knew stuff about him before we actually got together that's always a state in the back of my mind. He's handsome. He was popular. People like him. And what was it like when he picked you? I honestly didn't take it seriously. And he... I did not take it seriously because people,
like my friends, used to tell him that you have no chance. She was smart. She was popular, intelligent, pretty amazing personality. I've never felt like I was good enough for her. So I was always told that I didn't have an opportunity with her. So for me, it didn't make sense that why is this like player? Why would he be interested in someone like me who's not doing? And the answer was... How have you answered it? Now that you know... Like why he was interested?
Why you? I mean, at first I thought that it was like a game. Reaching beyond this. Yeah, I'm going to try and get this girl that his friends were telling him. It's impossible. She's never going to pay attention to you.
And so I thought he was just seeing what was that. And at first, because we get along so well, it was an instant connection for us because it was like you understand me in a way that a lot of people wouldn't because you understand my culture, you understand my language, you understand a lot of things about me that people here at college don't. So for us, it was always super easy to get along. Did you present yourself in a more American way? In college? Me? No, I think we were just...
Like because it college, he's Latino, but I was international. So it's a difference. We're different, like types of students. So I was the only student from Mexico, technically, like Elio International student from Mexico, but there were other students who have Latino heritage or Latino, but are actually American and because he has an American citizenship, he's not considered it. She was actually disappointed when she looked me up. I did like it. And she saw us from Texas.
Yeah. The first time I saw him, he was working at a cafe. A cafe. A cafe on campus and I saw him and I was like, that guy is Mexican. I'm so excited. He's cute, he's Mexican. And we have the database where you can look people up. So I saw his tag and I saw his name. And I looked it up and it comes up that he's like from Texas. I was like, oh no.
Why? What is the meaning of this? I don't know, this is the right word, but there's the whole like real Mexican and fake Mexican because there's a lot of people that grow up here in the states and they're Mexican, but they don't really understand life and culture over there. You connect differently. It's not that this counts their identities because I know there are a lot of people now who are in this gray area, where in the US they're not American, but in Mexico,
nobody considers them Mexican. So they're searching for their identity. I think that's the difference. Does that make sense? Yes, of course. So that's why we connected because she, even though she was a little bit disappointed about some Texas when we talked, she realized that I lived there and that in fact I did have that identity. And I speak Spanish and that it sounds like, oh. While they talk about who is the true Mexican, I realized that for that part of their relationship,
I am not needed. That is actually where they are complicitous with each other. And of course, the background story of she was the unattainable girl and he was the player who was going to pursue her. That remains very central to the origins of their relationship. And at the same time, at this point, one of the key conundrums that they grapple with exists rather outside of that context. That story adds coloring to it, but it is not essential.
The dynamic by which in a couple people compete for who should listen to who and who deserves the empathy of who, in which one person says I feel something and the other person says, but I'm doing so much already. That actually is a dynamic that transcends color, origins and background stories. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.
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I have a question for you. When she tells you that she feels something, whatever she says, I would love more attention or I feel a little bit like I've just been the whole day alone here and I'd love to talk when you come home or this is hard for me. Do you immediately feel pressure? I don't know if pressure is the right word. Why would be the right word? Motivation. Yeah, like you have to do something. Like I want to do something. Like you want to do something
and you have to fix it. Yeah. Right. Partly because this kind of competence, instrumental competence, fixing things, I think is a little bit part of the way that boys are socialized and partly because that's been your role in the family. If your mother has a feeling, you need to do something about it. Yeah. And if you can't do anything about it, then you want her to understand you. Yeah. And it instantly becomes whose sacrifice or whose burdens are bigger.
Rather than just simply taking her in your arms and just saying, thanks for reminding me. Or you know what? Let me take a quick break and I'll get some energy for us. Or I know it's been a tough day. Or I know that some days it must be lonely for you. And
that's about probably all she needs. She doesn't need you to fix it. She doesn't need you to become defensive about why it is that you have nothing left to give because you work so hard because you making sure that you can provide for her and for your whole family and that you're 23 and that you live like you're 40. In fact, she doesn't need the whole saga. First of all, she knows she appreciates it.
But all she needs is just someone who says, I know where you're at. And that means you have to do very little fixing. This dynamic where one person expresses a feeling and the other person experiences that as a burden upon which they need to act in order to fix it so that the feeling goes away is a very common dynamic in relationships. It is often a man who takes the role of the instrumental fixer. And when I say you have to do very little, it is not that there is not much to do.
But the doing isn't about fixing. The doing is simply about making space and allowing the other person to express whatever they express. And that in itself makes the feeling if you want go away rather than trying to fix it, not being able to do so and then wanting sympathy for how hard you have tried because you are suffering with your powerlessness in making the feeling go away. It is such a common couples dynamic that we are addressing here. And very difficult for many of us
sometimes to just simply say, I hear you, I know it's tough. You had a hard day and to think that that is actually equivalent to doing a lot. You overburden yourself with your motivation. And in the end, she doesn't get the acknowledgement that she needs or that she wants because either you can fix it right away, either you start to become critical about how she feels the way she feels because you are trying so hard and you are still not able to make the feeling go away.
Yeah, it's hard. And that piece of you feeling that you are this person with all these people who depend on you, your children in which that is not a role that you want to stay in. While I'm interested in the sense of responsibility that he feels over the psychological well-being of the women in his life, I'm also interested in how this young woman seems to be much more independent
when she is in Mexico without him than when she is with him. Something happens to her whereby she relinquishes her choices, her ability to move and she puts herself into the role of needing to be cared for. Like my fantasy at this particular moment is that when you're in Mexico, you're much more independent than when you're here. It's like you give up all your resources when you show up here and you plop yourself and in a way you say to him, now you do. I've done my part which is to show up
and now you do the rest. And you are not the same person when you're here and when you're there. Yeah, no. That's true. It's very true. Like when I'm in Mexico, my phone doesn't work for example. So sometimes we don't even text or talk and at the end of the day when I come back home, it's like just checking in and that's fine. And you do things in Mexico. Yeah, so I... Besides work. Yeah. And you have friends. Yeah. And you have fun. Yes.
And none of that travels with you. No. So that's a problem. Yeah. Why? Why? Because the matter is an exercise. I'll say. A lot. He loves the independent woman but the independent woman doesn't come to Texas. He stays in Mexico. That's very true. That is true. I think it might be just an excuse but I feel that I really think like it's... I haven't come to the acceptance yet that... Okay, this is like I'm actually coming. See, that's your version of what he does.
You two stop living. Yeah. You have more than one home now. Yeah. You have two homes. And you need to live in each home. With your activities, your people, your habits, your schedules and they both become your homes. You have freedom. You can come. You can go. You can decide if you want to come less often, more often. But there is a part of you that does it and says to him, I'm doing all of this for you. Therefore you need to... And that's a story that you're
choosing. What would happen if you said, I'm choosing this for me? Are you allowed to make these choices for you or are these only things that a woman can do for a man? Are you allowed to leave home on your own terms? For things that have nothing to do with a man is waiting for me. Yeah, that's a thing. You are me. Yes. Okay. You know that? Yeah. You agree? Believe you. We run board. Which is why I love her. Okay. It's like what I was describing her when she was in school.
Her is right here. You're we're always so independent that the reason being with you makes me feel safe is because I don't feel like I have to take care of you. Like I've never felt like you're going to be someone that like with my parents that just one of them doesn't work and I have to take care of you forever. I've taken this responsibility because in like I've told you multiple times, I know it's temporary that you do want to have a career that you're not just going to be bound to me
and I love that. But she's also telling you one more thing. I am very independent but on occasion, I like a little bit of attention. Without your thinking that that means that you have to take care of me. Right. Because you live between the two extremes. Yes, he does. Same on. No, no, he. Oh. I think you do feel like I am working, I'm independent and therefore I have no needs. Exactly. And therefore you feel that
when you come home like, okay, cool, you know, we both work, we do our thing, now let's go to bed. And and I still want to like connect with you because I miss you. I mean, I love you. I want to be with you and so I feel like when you come home and you're just like, you're good, you know, and that's it. But there are things that that hold on when I say, what did you hear her say just now? I heard her, I heard you say that I'm there but I'm not there mentally. No, no, that's a paraphrase.
You know, when we are in a rebuttal and we disagree on stuff, generally we can tolerate listening to ten seconds before we forget what has just been said because we're busy with our response. So say it again and just listen and then before you answer, just see what I'm hearing you say and repeat it. Let it land on you before you go right out with your rebuttal. The problem I think is that when you are with me, you are not present.
All right, I'm going to give you a frame of structure. X, Y, Z. When you do X in situation, why I feel Z. Because then you're talking about you and what your experiences and you're not busy describing him for which he will then become defensive because none of us want to be defined by anybody else. So when you do X in situation, why I feel Z. When you are still thinking about work and other things that are unrelated to our relationship, when I am with you, I feel completely lonely and ignored.
What I'm hearing you say, what I'm hearing you say is that when I am thinking about work and things that have nothing to do with our relationship, when I am around you, you feel alone. Is this it? You can ask so you know that you captured it. Is this it? I think I feel more lonely than alone. What? I don't engage you, so you feel lonely. Do I rebuttal now? I don't know. Can you respond without rebuttal? Meaning, you don't have to justify yourself, you don't have to defend yourself.
You don't have to counter-attack. You can just simply say. I understand. I do. I know you said don't defend yourself. It's I'm not trying to defend myself. I do understand how you feel because I do genuinely feel that if the roles were reversed and we were living in Mexico and you were working all day and coming home. And I was trying to engage you maybe on a book I read or something and you just were checked out. I would probably feel lonely as well. Great. That's a wonderful answer.
I would probably feel lonely. I feel lonely when you're not here and I've told you that. Even when you're just not here and you're traveling, I feel lonely coming home to the apartment. So I understand that's probably how you feel. The focus is on switching from reactive to reflective. And so I introduce a way for him to practice reflective listening. And for her to speak in a way that takes ownership over her feelings and speaks about her without
it becoming statements about him. What do you do for fun? I watch soccer. And when you are together. We try to find we try to make every Friday date night. So we try to find like maybe a food that we want to try like Moroccan or something and then we go to a movie. And then on the weekend. Because it is parents. We might visit my parents or we'll stay inside. I'll admit that I don't know if you do that for me. Like if you just say. I know you want to stay in. Because you.
And you spend most of your time just to two of you. Yeah. And where are all the color trends? Gone. Well hers live in her friends live in different countries. And I just barely interact with mine. They live in different states. You like a cactus? Explained. It means you you lack connections with others that are playful, friendly, easy, light, fun. That in itself is going to suck the oxygen out of both of you. Because you're expecting everything from each other. Yeah.
If your only value for being here is measured by his acknowledgement. And if he's the only one that can tell you it's nice to see you. That's too much on one person and not enough for you. I realize that we've been talking for two hours about their challenges and the difficulties and the burdens of their relationship. And there's a major dimension that has not been addressed. These are two young people in their 20s. Where is the fun?
I want to make sure that we don't forget that erotic dimension of their relationship, that feeling of a liveliness, a vibrancy of vitality, that one hopes to find throughout the relationship but certainly in the beginning of a relationship. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. Support for Weshad we begin comes from quints.
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Joe versus himself you can find it right now over at today explained we drop an episode every afternoon Monday through Friday you'll love it. So how do we first of all create a social circle for you? This is not good ecology. I feel like I haven't created a social circle for myself because I have felt like it would be unfair because I'm going to make you feel like I'm just trying to get away from this relationship
and I'm tired of you. I mean personally I like to stay in because I'm tired but like I also know you need friends. You're holding each other too tight. You're holding each other too tight and everything gets personalized. I don't want you to feel X so I'm going to deprive myself off. And in the end you're going to suffocate each of you. You need more than one person in life
and you need people with whom you have other kinds of interactions. And then when she comes you can say I have this group of people let's go and meet such and such and maybe she'll meet somebody there and then she'll give me makes a new friend as well and each of you feel multiply supported irrespective of the borders irrespective of the travel that people you don't need any INS to help you change this. You can do this on your own.
You know there are big things which you may not be able to influence but there are small things that are just as big actually that you can change as of today. You don't prove anything to her by going into a sensory deprivation tank and experiencing nothing of life as a way to show to her that she's the only thing in life that matters. Does she put guilt on you? You feel that she
or do you feel that you cannot separate yourself? I think that when you talk about your sacrifices versus mine and it frames in the context of your sacrifices are greater you make me feel guilty. So yeah I think you two put guilt on me. So when I when I talk about things that I'm sacrificing you feel that's me trying to guilt you into. I don't think you're doing it on purpose but that's just how I am. I feel guilty and I start feeling like maybe I should be doing more to make you
feel better. Let me suggest something. When you feel guilty in this particular instance it's a noble feeling and it's useless. At the best you should be appreciative. Instead if you feel guilty it still is about you. If you are thankful then you're saying to her I'm a lucky man that I have a woman who's willing to travel across the border with all of the what that means twice a month to be with me. Man I'm gonna save her this. Can you imagine this? Wanna try it?
I always tell them like you're suspicious. I don't know if you're so close to what. I don't want you to do it from a place of I owe you. I want it's a very different feeling. When you just say I'm so appreciative because you make this possible for us and that will make her feel a special to acknowledge tree that what she does has meaning and it will make you feel that you are important to her and it's a win-win on every front.
Love comes with an element of entitlement in which I feel deserving of the fact that you love me and when you do all this for me when you travel for me one would hope that he would feel appreciative thankful and good about himself for being that important in someone else's life. Unfortunately at this moment he still feels that he has to tell her I'm working hard for this.
I'm not just receiving I am meriting what you're giving me I do my share and part of this he acknowledges is that he still doesn't feel good enough about himself to just appreciate the entitlement of love rather than the conditionality of love. It's very hard because I don't feel appreciated. You stuck. I am. You stuck. You don't feel like you deserve this until you tell her what you're doing for her too. Yes. Rather than just receiving this.
It makes if you're not good enough. But no it should make you feel marvelous. You're already good enough. So will you tell him one more time how much you give things up to be with him? It's right. It's really hard to structure my life around our relationship and I do it every month. I get on planes. I cast the border and I do it even though it's it's really difficult. Thank you. That's all I need to hear. Like honestly that is all I want to hear.
Just what is your nickname for her? I call her Wapa. Wapa. Princess. So that's where you want to start. With that word. Thank you Wapa. Thank you. Say it again. Thank you Wapa. What is beautiful about this couple is that they come in the beginning and so many times couples come often when it's too late, often past due date. Here everything is still in the make and so the dough is still hot and it can still be baked. You just heard a classic session of where should we begin with Esther Perel?
We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and partnership with New York magazine in the cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast for the transcripts or show notes on each episode or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of mating and captivity in the state of affairs. She also created a game of stories called where should we begin. For details go to her website estherperel.com.
If you've been enjoying this podcast here's a look into what else is happening at New York magazine. I'm Corey Seeket and I'm here with Reeves Wideman who has written about the American obsession with NDAs. Where did they come from? Why are they everywhere? And are they good for anything besides covering up for abusers? After you've poked around NDAs for a while do you see NDAs used mostly as tools of abuse and coercion? You see positive results like where did you land on
NDAs? I think in most situations it is used as a way to sort of claim power but not even necessarily to do a bad thing. It's just kind of it is this now the sort of boring standard tool in the toolbox of corporations or powerful people. But now it's being used on the people at the bottom. It's the warehouse workers at Amazon being made to sign them or like I was just trawling job listings while doing this story and there were NDAs for forklift drivers and like people working in butcher
shops. And I think on the one hand it's just kind of like well I might as well there's no downside for me to do this. But it is also just another way that you sort of keep your employees or people you get into a relationship with that you sort of keep your thumb on them. So I do think it is at the end of the day the people who are giving them out by and large are trying to control someone.
Do you think that they're going to become standard for like literally every interaction in job interview and possibly relationship as well or do you think they're just finally going to die or become outlawed? Like where do we go from here? You know it was corporations first then it was celebrities then it was just rich people who aren't famous but they also want to protect their privacy. The next frontier is people like you and me and and are we going to start giving them to
their partners. You know I think some people are going to start experimenting with it. It doesn't take much to go online, download a free NDA and without even consulting a lawyer and hand it over to someone. I did as a joke send one to my girlfriend. She hasn't signed it yet but I yeah at least sent it. So that's Reeves Widermint who may or may not be single soon. You can read his work on NDAs in our beautiful print magazine in your own home or on nymag.com slash lineup.