What you are about to hear is a series Esther calls the Arc of Love. Each session centers around a couple's story, whether it's issues of trust and betrayal, care and aggression, closeness and distance, repair and rupture, polyamory or monogamy. The episodes can be listened to in any order you want, but we're curated with the beginning, middle and end. As always, one of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. Each episode
of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. If you are a content creator, then you are your own brand. And you deserve all the benefits. With Kajabi, you can build your own business the way you want and keep what you earn. Kajabi is an all-in-one platform that helps creators and entrepreneurs build successful online
businesses by unlocking predictable recurring revenue. Right now, Kajabi is offering a free 30-day trial to start your business if you go to kajabi.com slash Esther. That's k-a-j-a-b-i.com slash Esther. Kajabi.com slash Esther. It's divorce, but different if that makes sense. I always ask people why did they choose to come and share their story with me. And particularly in this couple, I was intrigued. They are divorced. They are two divorce lawyers. They've done it in a
very good way according to both of them. I just wanted to make sure that my son would never have to feel like he had to choose between his parents. We remain very much committed to not recapitulating what we see our clients do with being positional and fighting about gas, grills and every little sweater. They both state their explicit desire to be in a divorce that is different from what they have often been engaged with with their clients. Less friction, less accrimony, a reorganization of the
family with an active engagement of both parents. I like where we are. I like the type of family that we have been able to build. It's a little non-traditional, but you know, it works for us. Marriage was hard because it was a show. Yeah, it wasn't you didn't want to play. Yeah, this I like. What stands out here is that the two people in the couple are actually getting along much better, separated and divorced than they did when they were married. That in itself is not
uncommon. What is also not uncommon is that they hover on the border between separate and together with a great deal of ambivalence and a lot of hints, but nothing explicit. You know, when we tell our story and people who know us and they're like, are you doing this because you truly are committed to your son or is maybe there's a chance that you'll get back together
or something like that. I think people wonder. It's also very confusing. It is a very gray kind of emotional landscape to inhabit where the normal guideposts, the culture, society, or people are family provider, aren't there. It's like it was before, but it's not. When we first divorced, we did therapy for about a year. A little more than a year before. A little more than a year before the actual divorce. What did you learn about your communication?
That it was very poor. Because it's very avoided. Yes, that's right. It was very avoided. Now that you remember for him, your lessons she remembers. That's good. Yes. She has the institutional knowledge. That's right. I'm a voydent. Pretty much everything. Confrontation. Confrontation. Even though I'm a litigator and I can't front personally. This is ironic. Yes, but I was that way with my mom. I was that way with you. I don't like conflict.
In places. In places. Where does and in relationships. Yes. Where the stakes are high. But then that doesn't mean I don't have it in me. So I go and I fight other people's battles. Which in some way the stakes are low for me when it's other people's battles. It's not my drama. That's right. Put that in your own words. That resonates with me because this is therapy in New York City. It's me, you and the sirens.
It's easy for me to go to court and fight. These are people's lives who they're going through something like what we went through and sometimes very bad stuff. It doesn't really get to me. I find it easy. So it's not I avoid confrontation. It needs to be qualified. It's I do it for him. It's your nodding so much in recognition. He's very good at what he does. He's very good at. You can tell him. Confronting witnesses and just tearing them apart. But when it's this is the irony of it.
When it's like standing up to me when I say this is what we're doing and even if you're not okay with it. You're like okay and you just won't say anything. To me that's frustrating because I do want your opinion or want your say and something. I think that was kind of the difficulty that we had. So he played gay to Jew but he was quietly resentful? I think so. That's how he says yes.
Why the acting out occurred is because you felt like and you said this before even recently that you feel like you can't talk to me because I come across as a very confrontational person. I don't think in a mean way you can tell me different. But I do. I tell you this is what I want. This is what I feel. This is what's happening. That's kind of where we had the the clash. But sometimes the clash is the reverse of what was initially attractive.
I can imagine you being very attracted to this woman who states her opinion, who speaks her mind, who doesn't get stepped on and that was very attractive. And I can imagine that having someone who was agreeable and often saying yes and not arguing about everything and not challenging and seeming easy going was also very attractive. What we are originally drawn to is often what becomes the source of conflict later. It's just because you get a little more than what you bargained for.
How much was this central to your divorce? Why did you divorce? Actually. Well, for me, a huge issue in our marriage was I'm about moving back to my home state. That seemed to be a thing because when we first got married it was like well, he was still in law school and we were going to get him through school and then move back to where my family is. He's an only child. I have a lot of family and two years turned into ten and I kept
saying, when are we going back? When are we going back? And it was always the avoidance of well, we'll talk about it later. Well, I don't know. Well, my career is starting to really take off. And I felt in a way betrayed by him putting me off because I felt like this is what we had agreed upon and that was very hurtful to me. But have you moved back? We moved back for a little
while. After the divorce. I went back to my hometown and he came to where our son and I were living and was a big sacrifice for him because he had just become partner at his law firm. He's a really good dad and he wanted to be near our son. So he made that sacrifice. So we were there for a couple of years and I think we both realized that career wise and then also
culturally speaking because where I'm from tends to be a lot more conservative. We decided that it was better culturally for our son as well to be in a different environment because we saw the effect that it had on him. Explained to me. He's a little boy and where I'm from there's certain expectations of little boys are supposed to be hyper aggressive athletes, you know, hunting and all of that. It's very macho. It was a very important twist to not make a distinction between like
girl stuff and boy stuff. And he started to kind of get some of that where it was like, oh, I'm not wearing pink because that's for girls or that's for you know. It was a change. You know, I think we both realized that for our son, for the environment and the experiences that we wanted him to be able to have, it was a better fit where we were from. We have tended to try to make decisions primarily, you know, orienting around what we think is going to be good for him and good,
you know, for us too. For 10 years, she longed to go home and they were locked in a struggle about it. So when she finally did and then realized that perhaps it didn't suit not just her son, but also her, that it wasn't just that he was subjective to a masculine code, but that she too was subjected to a feminine code that she had worked so valiantly to try to get away from. So the son became a permitted outlet to claim things that she could not necessarily claim for herself.
I feel like the affair was a symptom of those bigger things. And so once that occurred, then we could actually talk about the issues, which was the moving back to my hometown. You know, I wanted to have another child and he was very ambivalent about that. And, you know, that's not something that you can really compromise on either. You're going to do it or you're not.
He's very concerned about wanting to be financially responsible and I can imagine that it was the thought of having another mouth to feed that was going to put more pressure on him to provide. And then I think probably one of the lesser issues actually, you know, was the affair. And it wasn't so much him. The divorce in terms of the infidelity was a little more complicated because I feel like that was the only way my parents divorced because my father was unfaithful.
And, you know, my mother drew a very hard line. It was like, you've crossed this line and you're out. And I felt like that was it, you know, like this is a line that I feel like we know about that. And how did you feel about what she did? I feel like she was right that she did the right thing for herself. And I think she did the right thing. And trying to teach my brother and I about, you know, having respect for yourself, I guess.
It wasn't so much the divorce as it was would happen afterwards because they were not very kind to each other. Meaning that's an understatement, right? Oh yeah. You know, there was a lot of hard feelings of course on my mom's part. You know, she didn't speak very well about my father. And he didn't say very nice things about her either. The ascendances you are remembering it just when that was you're speaking to him, right?
Like what? You know, I mean, there are times I would hear her say that she hated him. He would make comments about her and, you know, say that she's stuck that she, you know, just really hurtful and I feel like as a kid at 10 years old, I didn't really need to know why they divorced. But I knew all of it because I was dragging to the middle of it. And so when we divorced, it was very important to me to make sure that our son was not dragged into
the middle of it because our problems or our issues or ours and not his. And I think it's worked. Like I said, he's a very, very good father. And you dad? My father? Well, he didn't really make a lot of effort. Did the bare minimum and then did what a lot of my clients do, which is I gave you the child support and don't ask me for anything else. So, you know, I see the way that you are with her son.
And it's like there's nothing that you wouldn't do for him. And I'm very grateful for that because I know what it feels like to feel like an inconvenience to feel like, you know, you're just a burden. And I can't imagine that it isn't beautiful for you to hear her say this. Does she do that often? Yeah, actually. Good. Let me ask you a strange question. Maybe it's not strange, but do you have a sense that you can preserve this divorce in its beauty as it is,
as long as other partners don't come into the picture? I mean, that's the $64,000 question. But I don't think I'm the first one to us to think about this, right? No. It's a fear that I have. A huge fear. I worry that it's going to change the dynamic. I worry about somebody else being in the picture and me losing my role with our son. I tend to do this with everything. I just catastrophize everything. And it just then spins out control and, you know,
just becomes... So, I'm going to meet someone and she's not going to let me see my kid. Oh, no, I don't know. I worry about her meeting somebody. I never think about it in terms of me. What happens to you? You've gone into the priesthood? Pretty much. Yeah, no. Why did you divorce? And who wanted this divorce in the first place? I think the moving thing was a major thing. And I also think that having another child was a major thing. Would you have one now? But I have a child now. Together.
Oh, no. No. I'm 42 now. And to think about it 50, yeah, you know. I don't think I could have another child. And you're also right from the standpoint. No, you come up with some thought that you just showed me your catastrophizing thing. You come up with a thought. You just blur out something. And then it becomes a reality. And then it becomes a truth. And then it becomes a decision. It's absolutely... Sorry. You agreed with that. I don't think you disagree actually either.
That's not the point. I mean, you just showed it to me. It's like, so what? So then you turn 50 when you have an 80-year-old and you will not think two seconds about it. You will just be feeling like you're blessed and you're happy to have a birthday party. You won't be thinking about you rage that day. I promise you that. But you make a statement and that proclamation becomes a prediction. But I'm thinking about it because it is one thing that you both value enormously and
that you do beautifully together. Why restrict yourself to one? The rest are just all kinds of fears and worries and just thoughts that you feel you had with that have no rhyme and reason actually. What you just did now is what you probably did five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. You stood in your own way and you instigated your own demise. And I'm sure that you're very good at seeing other couples do that. But we all have blind spots. Yeah. Sorry. It's true. I just seemed like
what had to happen in a way. You were very adamant about going back. And at that time I wasn't. And it didn't seem reconcilable. Yeah. But then there was the baby thing. And that was that was a big issue. You can't compromise on that either. You're going to do it or you're not. You can't have two half babies. Right. What you're seeing is that you got on a track. And that track of we're not getting along. We want different things. We are stuck. We're not moving.
It's not getting better. Well, there is nothing else we can do. I guess the only thing to do is to divorce. It becomes this thing that has its own moving force and it leads to this inevitable. It's not inevitable at all. And from what I understood from the little bit I'm getting is you're not divorced. I mean, yeah, on paper. But you're not divorced. I've been mining the reasons for why they divorced. And at the same time, what I see in front of me
may not only be just a divorce. And so I decide to take on a different tack. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin Comes From Master Class? We live in a culture that's obsessed with staying young and vibrant. But seriously, I think that sometimes way more useful than a face cream or a fat diet is our ability to stay curious and lifelong learners.
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25% of your first month. That's 25% of your first month of Seeds DS01 Daily Sin Biotic. At Seed.com slash a stair code 25 a stair. 8 years ago when we started where should we begin? Jesse Baker our executive producer was reading through hundreds of applications and she called me in a panic to say everyone had written in the exact same issue and that she was terrified at all the episodes therefore we're going to be
the same and she says to me a stair no one's fucking anymore. So I explained to her that often when the sex dries up that's when people come to me to talk about the emotional desert that they're living in because in order to want sex it needs to be sex that is worth wanting and that sexuality is a coded language to really excavate our deeper emotional needs fears wishes aspirations traumas and this is really the hard and soul of my new courses on desire which we are releasing
September 17th. The first course bringing desire back is for you if you are stuck and you want to just get unstuck from the sexual blocks overcome the shame understand and unwrap the misconceptions
about sexuality. If you want to practice playing your way to a more erotically fulfilling life then I would say the second course of playing with desire is the one for you and if you are eager to do it all it's easy to get both you become a subscriber on where should we begin today and you'll also get an exclusive discount code to purchase the courses when they become available September 17th. Special discounts like this are just one benefit for subscribing to where should we
begin on Apple Podcasts. For a small monthly fee you'll get ad free listening to all episodes plus behind the scenes bonus content with me like so many times you say what happened to this couple. Where did that leave them? Where did they go with this? This is all on the Apple Podcast subscription. I invite you to subscribe today. I mean you get a long better than you were when you were a couple. Yes we get a long better.
You're a better couple you better as parents you better with each other and there is actually no room for others. Call it what you want. Yeah I mean I feel like we're definitely still very connected. I feel like that's a big reason why I haven't let anyone else really into my life
romantically. I think I know that I have dated more than than he has but none of it is ever really serious or I don't let it go there because I don't want to just rub what we have which is to be able to spend those holidays together to go on vacations together with our son and with my mom comes with us and it would take someone who's very understanding I guess but. He won't happen. Right not because the person doesn't exist it won't happen because you don't want it. Right I
mean that's true. I like where we are I like the type of family that we have been able to build it's a little non-traditional but you know it works for us. I mean I I mean if anything is I listen to you and I think I could think of them as having a very nice divorce or I could think of them as having a very nice different marriage. Lat leaving a part together. The fastest growing couple in America is the lat you're a lat you live a part but you are together. Now you could
say we are divorced or you could say we have a new marriage. We get the best of each other. We don't have to deal with too much of the grind of each other. We don't really want other intimate partners because we feel that they would disrupt sexual partners on occasion probably we have because that's the one thing we don't share at this moment and we are we're a couple. I mean I mean we we do everything together and I hadn't thought about it that way actually but
what does it sound? I think it sounds okay to me. Yeah I mean it's it's remarkable just that framing of it not being divorced but being in a kind of way married just differently married and not even the word marriage because that's I mean all these words marriage divorce etc they're so fraught and they carry stuff with them. You didn't end your relationship. You changed your
relationship. Right. I think because the word marriage has so many connotations to it to say that it's a different kind of marriage I think would in a way make me uncomfortable I guess because well you're importing religious things into it. Right because there's a whole religious part of it. Say more. Well you know just my family and my cultural background you know the the concept of
marriage is something that's very defined. What is your culture background? Mexican American and you know we grew up Catholic so you know it has a particular effect when you use the word marriage. Explain it to me. Marriage is something that's very to me very confining. It's all or nothing. I was never the type of person that grew up wanting to be married you know because to me the thought of marriage is just very restrictive. For all or more so for women? Mostly for women.
Probably matters to be more precise. Correct. This is a moment when what she says goes way beyond her own individual story even their individual story. I mean she's not the first woman who has told me I needed to be married. I didn't want to be married. You need to be married to be able to be a whole woman to be able to have a family but the experience of marriage itself from where she came from she saw as one long
life of subjugation and subservience. A good for instance is you know I there are a lot of things that I like to do. I love to travel. He does not like to travel because it's very stressed out but the experience and then being in a new place and all this stuff so we never really traveled much when we were married because he didn't like to do it. Since we've been divorced I just go and do
it. I mean I just came back from Italy because I was like I want to go for my birthday and so I'm going to do it and I didn't have to ask him or get his opinion all I needed to know that he was going to be available to take care of our son while I was gone for 10 days. And I always had this sense of when you're in a marriage like everything that you do you have to run it by your partner and that's very aggravating to me because there are just sometimes I just want to do what I want.
So the institution of marriage itself is something that was never really appealing to me but now you kind of have the marriage you would have wanted or always wanted. The one in which you get to do more of what you want without having to ask for permission without feeling restricted and confined. Without having to do the all or nothing.
Right. I mean I feel much more free now even just you've got the marriage that you wanted to have but didn't think that you could have because that's not how you define marriage. Right. That's not how I present it to me. Fascinating. You have the freedom that you would have wanted that you didn't think a woman can experience in the context of marriage and you have the companionship that you wanted with other burdens and the restrictions that came with it.
Correct. So I finally have the relationship I want. Yeah. I guess. One in which I get to travel to Italy with a father who takes care of our kid for 10 days and I don't even have to negotiate it. Right. This is like this is what I'm doing.
Right and it was that that context of marriage where it was like I felt so restricted and confined and you're a mother now so you can't do this and you can't do that and and again it wasn't anything that he said or he demanded it was something that I imposed on myself and it led to me being you know a very unhappy person.
If she had come to you in the old marriage that you had and said I want to go to Italy which she wouldn't have done not because you would have said no but because she didn't think one can as a mother as a wife etc. But what would have happened you think? I don't think it would have been good because I think I was doing a kind of mirror thing to what she was.
I thought that I mean I don't have any kind of religious connotation to it but I view it in a kind of way that there are just certain ways and norms about how married people are supposed to be. I know what would have happened. First you would have complained we can't afford it. Yes. Which wouldn't have been right. Would not have been the case. We can't afford it and then you would have chastised me about why would you want to go
for 10 days leaving me and our son I mean I can just hear it. Yes. Keep going. And then I would feel bad and feel guilty and then I wouldn't do it. But then I would be mad at you because I wanted to do something. I didn't because you didn't want me to and I felt like I had to be a proper wife you know that I would have to do what's right for the family.
And then keep going. And then I would not do it. I would be resentful and then I would not be nice to you and then and then it would just lead to the arguing that we were doing. And then and then take it all the way to the affair. That's kind of how this thing got set up. So now we're bickering. You are feeling bitter and deprived. He feels unappreciated. Yep. And then we want to pick it up from here. Mr. Oh yeah I mean that was also a product of
you know me being avoidant about a lot of other things too. I'm an only child. My mom dies. She dies on a Saturday and back at work on a Tuesday. I didn't do it. She died at 59. And you? That's nine years ago. Yeah. 34. And I was very close to her. And I knew that. That's where you learned to yes to not get her upset to make sure that she was happy to make sure that she she adored you. I feel like I haven't still dealt with all of her.
My mom. I was an only child and she could be the most loving self-sacrificing, wonderful mom, but she could also be a terrorist. She was tough. She could rip into a person. It'd be so me. I was afraid of her. And in some ways she's dead and I'm still afraid of her. It was you and her alone? No. There was my dad but my dad was a very docile guy. And he just sort of didn't engage and they didn't have a great relationship. But they stayed married.
I mean it's interesting how we're talking about divorces that are marriages and marriages that are divorces. I was in an intact home that was not intact at all in many ways. And I. My friend and colleague Megan Fleming calls it an invisible divorce. People who still are officially married. But basically I completely disconnected from each other and apart in just about every aspect of life except for the basic infrastructure, a dance institution of marriage. And it was like that. It wasn't
always like that. But when I was a kid I didn't know if my mom was going to be good loving mom or screaming and yelling mom. And so I learned to tell jokes and be funny or fight with words or put on a show and do you know a song and dance. And part of what's hard is I feel like I've just repeated every day. I mean I go and I do this you know performing monkey routine as a lawyer putting out a show and I damn good at what I do and I get good results but it takes a toll on me
because I never stop. Because I want that validation. I want that win. And it just is draining to live that way. And marriage was hard. Because it was a show. Yeah. It didn't want to play. Yeah. This I like. You know we can talk about work. We can talk about family and things and it was so different when it was within the context of marriage is very resentful of having their feeling like we had to do certain things because that was what I thought you thought we had to do or I thought we had to
do and it wasn't necessarily what I wanted to do. And I am you know I've come out of my shell a little bit and we do like travel a little bit more right. I just feel like there's less expectation less pressure on each other now that there was before. Yeah. You know for a long time too there was a period where I viewed you in very similar way to my mother. I'm very confused. Also. Well my mom is ethnically the same.
Which is what? Oh Mexican. Mexican. Sorry. And you both can be very direct. And sometimes I experience you would experience you both as harsh and there were sometimes I feel like I was experiencing you what you were saying or how you were spawning and it was like all filtered through the experience of my mom. So interestingly I don't think you divorced each other but I do think that you divorced your family as a virgin. You can have finally the relationship that you each
want to have. One in which you don't have to be a constant performer, buffoon and pleaser. And one in which you don't have to feel that everything about being in a relationship is confining. Yeah. Yeah but it's how do you share rules when you travel? Oh yeah I'll stay in the same room. Not saying bad. Not saying bad. Do you ever want to change bets? I've never given it a thought. No. No I don't think about it or no I don't want to change bets.
When they describe how they travel together and they share the rooms together, the familiarity, the intimacy, the coziness between them is clear. And of course I'm going to ask and what about the bets and the answer and how fraught it is tells me not that they haven't thought about it but how much pain is still lingering around it. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. We're calling it a touch more. Because women sports is everything pop culture, economics, politics,
you name it. And there's no better folks than us to talk about what happens on the court or on the field and everywhere else too. And we'll have a whole bunch of friends on the show to help us break things down. We're talking athletes, actors, comedians, maybe even our moms. That'll be a fun episode. Whether it's breaking down the biggest games or discussing the latest headlines, we'll be bringing a touch more insight into the world of sports and beyond.
Follow a touch more wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Wednesday. I guess maybe just we're not not there yet maybe. Because for me the affair was a very, very deep blow to me. I mean I never thought of myself as somebody that would do something like that. And I still feel guilt about I mean I don't like causing pain. And knowing that I caused you that amount of pain is hard. I mean it's like oh it's hard for me and that. But I don't know
what I'm trying to say other than do you know what I'm trying to say? I feel like you feel very guilty because of how you made me feel which you made me feel really bad. But you made me feel bad at the time. So I don't see why you feel the need to beat yourself up about it all the time. Like we're here now and I feel like we're in a better place now than we were then. I guess yes we are. But this is something that I do a lot with other things too is beat myself up.
There is like a huge swell of emotion that is just always underneath the surface with me. I can cry like that. There's enough there that I could just let it go and I'm not sure how long it would take before it would stop. But I'm scared of all of that pain that I have. And when you were in marriage one point or you'd just happen to you too? I didn't cry much. And you? He saw your sadness or he saw most of your resentments? Probably mostly their resentment. Would you agree?
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he saw the sadness maybe if you had maybe you would have reacted differently. I don't know. But I think he saw the resentment and then I think he resented the resentment. He would say things like you only want to go back because of your mother. You made a comment about I needed to cut the apron strings several times. Well if I can't be with my mother why should you be with yours? It almost felt like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah there was certainly some of that. I mean who's
on Billy Concord where we're really talking about here? Right. That's yeah you're right. I was so resentful of her mother and the thought of going down there and being subsumed in all of that. She has this family. She has all of this. I just have the memories of a mom who was simultaneously really great and sacrificed and all of it but carrying around all of the other stuff. And then thinking professionally and how culturally different it was and everything else and
I was terrified that I was going to lose myself there. But I'd be nothing. You know it was terrifying but I did it. Well I did the same thing in the beginning. Yeah. And that's why I was very resentful towards you because you're making it sound because you would do that thing. I'm going to go down there. I'm not going to know anybody. You know and it would just be this whole rabbit. That's rabbit hole. That is the blah blah. That's the way he can conjure up a story. The real thing was he
was jealous. Why do you and I don't and if I don't why should you? And I'll put down what you do because it's in fact what I want. How dare you talk to your mother every day when I can't. And not just I can't because my mother is dead but even if I did I would never know if I would have a good day or a bad day with my mom and how dare you have such a wonderful time. Are you very honest? That's absolutely right. I mean there's always the blah blah. The burning, the child. That's the
music that accompanies. That's the background. Right. But that's not the real stuff. Every music has a light motif and then some stuff around. You need to listen to the light motif. That's absolutely right. It was envy. But they're my mom. You know and probably envy about you know just the family thing more largely. Well and that's why I get upset about our son not having a sibling. That was something that was very important to me because I know what it's like to have one
and I didn't want him to be alone. And I felt like whenever we tried to talk about it the answer was always no and it was is that forgotten today? I don't know I'm turning 40 next week so. Yeah so that's not that. I mean you exercise power in places that are not necessary and just don't bring the money into it because that's the real lame one because both of you probably
your parents did not think do I can I afford it when they had you. That's true. Bullshit. They had you because they wanted to have you and then they gave you everything they had which wasn't much to begin with and then you are the ones who made it and then you're going to say we can't afford kids that the bourgeois values you want to know. No. No you're right. Well that's what I would say to him like well you know we'll figure it out. I think that was his biggest problem with everything
was the I guess we'll figure it out was just not good enough for him. Right so when he is afraid he exercises control. You're not alone you know just don't think you're unique but you have a good deal now you have a good arrangement in a very interesting way you're in marriage to point oh you did just enough divorcing you know he did just enough divorcing to be able to free yourself from what you consider the constraints and don't look to him for your confidence
because he doesn't he's not a good source. I'm sure you have friends who are actually better than him. I mean he'll give you lots of wonderful things but if you want to do something and you're not sure unless you change unless you fundamentally change and you think that her driving isn't your diminishment and that she can never have more than you more family more motherly love more of her
travels more she can't have more if you don't and if you're going to rise to the occasion that's a piece that's going to change you're going to become generous in a different way instead of we can't it will be I would love this for you that'll be three point oh and of course to me it's obvious
that you would have another child because it's the thing that you enjoy that you do well and because on some level if you really want to give her back something it's that it seemed to me that he owes her an apology and he's looking for a way back into the good grace
not just as the father of the boy but also as her partner it's clear that there is a lot of love still between these two people but it began to explore to what extent having another child since that's what brings them together at this moment could actually be the symbol of his apology
many times when one partner says to the other we can't do it you can't do it blabla it's not because they don't trust you it's because it's the thing they would want and they don't feel they are capable and I think that's the same with another child we had one and I felt like I was
failing at it miserably all of the rest of it and when it came time to deal with a second I felt horrible and I was afraid and this is going to sound kind of sick but sounds horrible I thought you were too attached to him and not to me I felt like we had a relationship and then we had a
child and then you know and it's that sounds horrible and it's selfish but I did have those feelings like I was you know like you're a chap liver yeah like oh yes I was chap liver here's the kid and he gets all of the attention from you and and all of the rest of it and I once was that person
and now I am displaced and if we have one more I'll never get anything it's not a sick thought it's actually a rather common thought not many people are as blunt as you do there to say it but just so you know it's a thought that crosses many partners mind I don't I don't like that I felt that way
well in a way I feel surprised that that's how you felt because I felt that I was trying to keep us connected I was always the one suggesting that we go out just to two of us and we get a babysitter and you were always saying oh you know I don't want to leave him with a babysitter he's
too young what if something happens to him and he can't speak and so that was very difficult for me because number one I already felt like I couldn't go out and have relationships with other people like with my girlfriends and have dinner and whatever and then I couldn't have a relationship
with you either because you don't want to go anywhere because we were always at home with our son so and that just fed into that the whole confinement that I felt in marriage because it's like well I can't go out with my friends you don't want me to be with my family and then I want to go out
with you but you don't want to do that either so it was just further tightening the news around me and I'd say that I didn't love our son very much and they were spending time with him I still do but part of the reason why I feel like the current situation works is because I get my time
with him and then I also get the time for myself to go and get my nails done or go watch a movie by myself that isn't Disney you know um say here my my girlfriends complain that you know they never have time to just take a shower or to go get a petty or whatever and I'm like
join my clan right I'm like well you know if I want to go get a pedicure I just call him up and say hey can you take him because I have some stuff to do and I guess that's the whole the freeing part about this situation is that I am in no way suggesting I don't know if that's what you do not go back
no no no no but I'm turning 1.0 yeah no and I think if anything I feel like he should forgive himself for the affair part because and maybe it's just part of my nature to find you know the silver lining and everything but he said you free yeah as weird as it sounds if we're going to
take anything positive from the situation I don't think that we would have been able to find this place without that as weird as it sounds for some reason you've decided that you needed to call this we are divorced and took two minutes at what you wrote and I thought that's weird
that's only thing that's weird I think this people finally have the relationship that they both would want what is clear to me is that there is no one size fits all and that we've never invested more in our intimate relationships than we do today and we've never crumbled more under the expectations
that we bring to our relationships in this particular case they actually had already rewritten their story but they didn't know how to title it because so often we find that it is the language that we use that is in itself confining we lock ourselves up inside a concept
and we forget how to cultivate the quality of our experience my work is to accompany people in their quest for what will be a meaningful driving relationship in which they can find themselves alive and vibrant and vital because ultimately my big why is that it is the quality
of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives you just heard a classic session of where should we begin with Esther Porelle we are part of the box media podcast network and partnership with New York magazine in the cut
to apply with your partner for a session on the podcast for the transcripts or show notes on each episode or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter go to estareporelle.com estareporelle is the author of mating and captivity in the state of affairs she also created a game
of stories called where should we begin for details go to her website estareporelle.com on September 28th the global citizen festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty watch post Malone doja cat Lisa jelly roll in Rao Alejandro as they take
the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty defend the planet and demand equity download the global citizen app to watch live learn more at globalcitizen.org slash box if you've been enjoying this podcast here's a look into what else is happening at New York
magazine i'm kory sega i'm an editor at New York magazine i'm talking with madeline li young colman she's written for us about how we treat animals at the end of their lives about the most difficult decisions that none of us ever want to make and the big question we have is who is
this medical care for is it for them or is it sometimes for us hi madeline hi kory i'm really scared to talk about this topic on air because i don't want to start crying that is the big hazard here for both of us that we'll get very upset as as most people in america we have had pets die and
pets come and go and it's tough it's true and not only had them die but had to make the decision about when they died you you said that vets oh a vet said to you like nine times out of ten people have waited too long yeah she says of the uthanae jacay says that she sees nine times out of ten
it's someone who's waited too long versus people who are bringing a pet into be euthanized who she doesn't think would need it the phrase you bring up is a phrase we've all heard which is the phrase you'll know when but we we do clearly do not know when and both of us have not known when in our
lives like how how should people who are struggling with this like no when there are actually some checklist that you can find online that basically help you evaluate your animals quality of life but ultimately the only thing that actually prepares you to make the decision is having been through
it before you were calling vets and pet owners and asking them about animal death and end of life and all this terrible stuff what was the one thing you heard that surprised you the person i talked to who used to work at a shelter found that when people would bring their dogs into be
euthanized people who really love their dogs but just couldn't afford to treat them or just need to put them down for whatever reason they would all bring their dogs the same last meal a McDonald's cheeseburger you were kidding me what every single person she said basically would
bring into McDonald's cheeseburger for their dogs to eat and kind of upset they have chicken bones finally what they all want to eat that's all they want to eat is chicken bone let them have them that's madeline the young Coleman and you can find her story on animals ethics and death in our print magazine in your own home which you should just subscribe to and receive there or at nymag.com backslash lineup that's nymag.com slash lineup