Is This the Person I'm Meant to Be With?

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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my partner or ex partner right now and we were sort of at a crossroads in our relationship of ten years. trying to figure out where our paths are going and if our own individual paths make sense to keep together or if it makes more sense to Go our separate ways.

Is this the person that I'm meant to be with? Is a question that many people ask themselves and also me. They're in their mid-30s. They came to a place where things could not continue as usual. They had to make a change.

there was a period of time where we were really struggling and we eventually made the decision to what we called a de escalation of our relationship to see what it would look like to live independently but together in the same space and try to see if we can get out of the dynamic that we were in.

It it had to happen because neither of us could continue in the the way that it was going.

So they created a new structure so that they could continue to live together under the same roof, but not be in a romantic relationship. To find a way to lessen the reactivity and the chronic escalation. and a high conflict that became pervasive in the relationship. And things have really improved. This is actually closer to the relationship they've always wanted.

As time went on, we were like, Wait, we're actually liking how we're feeling in this new arrangement, but what does that mean? Like Is it because there's still something there? Or is it because of the breakup or the de escalation that we're feeling?

What's the big fear? You know? You loved each other before? Well what stop it at this time, you know.

I mean

But they are afraid. If we re-engage, if we become a romantic couple again, will we be able to sustain this or is all of this going to fall apart again?

part of me that wants to try again but there's part of me is afraid that we don't know how to make it work. You know? Will we just fall right back into the old patterns? Will we end up resenting each other and ruining what we've established?

We don't want to ruin what we have. We would like it to lead to more, but we don't trust that the more is something that we actually can sustain. So let's listen.

We met through a mutual friend, actually, his ex.

Yeah, who I was dating for a while.

their relationship didn't work out and you know a friendship blossomed into you know a relationship we're texting every day we're hanging out with the same friends we're going out Soon enough we are in a full-blown relationship. That's fun. We're both young, having a good time. I had a lot of friends. We were hanging out, going to bars and stuff like that. And then we were like, we're gonna be together as long as we're having fun.

So that was the original contract, light and easy.

Light and easy, yeah.

So that's phase one.

Yeah, that's phase one. And as you pass the quote unquote honeymoon phase. as we started to get older, that is when the fun maybe started to shift.

He was looking for more more fun, more openness, more exploration, people.

Let's be new people, friends, whatever that may be.

And we used to joke that I had like more wholesome ideas of what I wanted and wanted to do and how to spend my time like I used to complain that we would just be on the go all the time, like Thursday through Sunday, party, bar, club, another bar, another club. At no moment to sit down and have a meal.

I want you with me. Like I want to do this together and you finally dig Yels in the sand about, like, yeah, this is not what I'm doing. Or I'm gonna scale back on how much I'm involved in this.

Do you need him to help you scale back?

Uh yes, at the time I did.

'Cause you kind of otherwise could get lost in the vortex. In the hedonistic word, eh?

How do you put it that way?

Yeah.

For lack of a better word, sure.

Should we find another one or does it state it clearly?

Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Yes. Um, you know, with friends it's it's easy to and especially when you're young living in a city, you're you're doing what your friends are are doing.

But when he tries to slow you down, this is now beyond just this one situation. When he tries to slow you down. or to say, let's sit or let's have a meal or let's not just go go go go. You fight him or you actually know he's providing you with an inner control that you sometimes lack.

So the question. I did fight it. I did resist. Especially if it if it conflicted on what my plans were. The hedonistic stuff? Yes, I was very much fighting it. And then it would only through argument and sort of like him not wearing me down, but like making me feel bad in the conversation, then I would acquiesce to the slowing down. As I gotten older, over time I've realized the calming factor of being in and doing like the wholesome stuff.

I used to resent the characterization of what I wanted to do as wholesome for some reason.

I I understand. I mean because the way that you've labeled things gives it a whole meaning. Why is yours wholesome and yours young free Pleasure seeking, uh adventures, and you like what, the party pooper?

Yeah.

But it's interesting to see how very early on you took on those roles. And my guess is that once they were outlined, they just became more and more Defined.

That's a hundred percent.

And then it starts to filter into everything. It just becomes one is responsible and one is not. One is serious and one is not, one is forward looking, one is not. Is that what happened?

Yes.

So if you had the word that really described and it wasn't wholesome as in You know. Grandmotherly.

Mm-hmm.

What would it have been for you?

I can't give you necessarily a word, but the image that comes up in my mind is sitting around the table for food. Because I grew up Italian. All of our gatherings were around the table. So whenever I think about what gives me joy and fulfillment, it's like sitting down, having a conversation. So

I get it. But I was wondering That image that you had of sitting around a table, dropping in, being present, connecting with each other, having rich conversations.

Y yes. Yeah. I mean we you know, I grew up home, we had dinner every night, you know what I mean?

And your family background?

My mom is American and my dad is uh Caribbean from the West Indies. So yeah, I grew up in a you know, international slash American home. But I I I guess in terms of like the meal aspect. I I don't know if that was

It wasn't the meal as much as did it seem to you funniest outside.

Yes.

That's what I was doing.

As fun as outside, you know.

He's describing fun is inside. And the word fun wouldn't even need what he would choose, but inside is rich, inside is is where he you choose to whereas you're describing A kind of a an elan to always want to go out.

Because the home is where you chill.

Yeah.

Not doing too much, you're just like there to I guess recharge to then go back out.

So out is where you bring the best of you and the leftovers come home. And and home becomes a place where you don't give much of yourself. Yes. And then that will become very frustrating to him.

Yes.

Yeah. Because then he sees how much attention, focus, engagement, presence you take with you when you go out. And you come home, you take off your shoes, you put your feet up, so to speak. And you hope that nothing is asked from you and you don't have to do squat.

Yes.

What did you just see as I was describing this? You just had a scene in front of you.

Like my typical days or not t yeah, typical days if I don't have much to do or like an argument about to start. You know what I mean? Of like You're just there. There's so much you could be doing. And you're just there. You know what I mean? Where I'm I'm like, I'm in my house. I'm supposed to be relaxing, you know. When you go out, that's when you're exerting energy and doing all that. So when you were saying all that, I just saw all the

He points at an interesting distinction here, because at first it looks like they're having tension around the fact that one of them wants to go out, party.

at the table in conversation, etc. And so he says, But I'm home and you're having a fit with me even when I'm home. That's because his conception is that at home you chill. At home you put your legs up and you don't have to be performative, you don't have to please, you don't have to charm, you don't have to make As a result, the best of him goes out into the world and the leftovers come home.

Mm-hmm.

struggles is not even the word, he just just doesn't like it. And he also doesn't get your presence when you're home.

Then he's going to start to feel a lonely, bored. Frustrated. Agitated. Something

Yes. Then that ended up having follow-on effect. And I have a lot of guilt for the way that I reacted. I think we got into a bad habit of mocking the things that the other person liked.

Each of you.

Both of us in different ways, in retrospect. I would make little digs about the vapid superficial nature of parting, how no one was really interested in getting to know anyone. You know, it was slight offhand comments that I now in retrospect realized I was breaking him down. I was stealing his light. But then when it would come to me making new friends, there would be the little jabs about like, Oh yeah, you all gonna go talk about philosophy or

Boring stuff.

Yeah. Little jokes about being pseudo intellectual or, you know, something like that. That I think war on each other. We didn't have a lot of respect for what the other person brought to the table or was interested in. I regret that. I do. Because I can be difficult. I can be hard. When I've made been made to feel rigid and typecast, it makes me really angry. And so the way that I

What's described here is a rather common pattern. In many relationships. One person doesn't like what the other one does. When they can't get anywhere just repeating that, the comment turns into criticism. When the criticism doesn't go anywhere, then the criticism over the behavior turns into a criticism over the personality. Not what you do, but who you are. Then, as he says, we began mocking each other. We digged. We made the person feel bad about the very thing that mattered to them.

Yeah.

I added my peace to this and it made it worse.

That was very beautiful. That recognition is really important. Because when you start to repeat that on a daily basis to each other, it becomes really It's like each of you basically began to put down the very part that the other person is already struggling with.

Yeah, I think after a while like Because you at that point dug your heels in and was like, I'm not doing this as much or I'm gonna take a pivot and you started to sort of look down on this the things that I guess I was valuing, it chipped away in me and like my self-esteem of like what I like, you know, is what I like frivolous and dumb and stupid. So I think over time it just eroded my confidence in the things that I liked.

And then the pandemic happened.

And now you are, you know. In survival mode at this point.

So they're tracking with me. of escalation. in their relationship. They had become a digging couple that attacks And blames and And then they bring up the pandemic. They start to describe the pressure cooker of having this whole dynamic when there is not even an opportunity to open a door, to meet other people, to get some other input.

We are in the midst of our session.

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We just really struggled with how we both navigated that because on the one hand, our friend group took more liberties with the pandemic, even in the earlier months during the lockdown. And I took a very hard, admittedly rigid line and said, We are not gonna be around anybody. We can't be around anybody because they're all going into big ten fifteen person group.

Hurtful. And I think because of his hard stance. At the time there was no talking or in between about like how we were gonna do it. He kinda just dug his heels in the sand and I had to kind of be along with the program because that's just how it was. You know, you really wasn't budging. And I think that's when the conflicts really started to kick off.

And for every time I relinquish, I resent you more.

Yeah. Each time I had to give up a part of my view or like what I would do or my own autonomy in the situation because there's this person that's just making the rules.

And where is all of this stored right now?

Yeah, still Yeah, still a little bit of the control and autonomous piece. And I think that's really where I guess I struggle where to go forward of like exercising that autonomy, but also doing it in an apartment as well, and not the same way.

Are you surprised that you relinquished your ideas or your coping mechanisms and that you kind of allowed him to No.

I'm not surprised.

Tell me.

I think in my relationships with family, I do get steamrolled quite a bit, especially with my mom and my sisters. And I think that translated in people pleasing with friends. you know, just taking the easy way route or just the path of less resistance and conflict avoidance. So I guess it's not surprising that I let this happen or this happened. And I think part of that is I resent that in myself. because I don't think I like that as a quality.

Is there that?

Yes.

And what is dad's role in this?

More like me, the laid back path of least resistance. less outspoken in a room of people who have a stronger personality. However, still has things to say when asked. So I think in this whole dynamic with moms, sisters, He was kinda like me, kinda like, uh we'll let them talk

That's we'll let them talk and we'll go do our thing. Or we let them talk and we'll do what they want because happy wife, happy life.

Yes. We we'll let them talk and do what they want until, you know

Really mm.

Until it really matters.

But most things don't matter enough to put up a stink.

Yeah.

And you wink at each other?

Yeah, we were like, how do they you know? We were just kind of commiserating as to why whatever they were talking about was as important. I think my dad was very much on the What are you guys talking about? You know what I mean? So I think I kind of took the stance of my dad. And um that's something that I'm trying to work on not having more and standing up for myself.

I wanna respond to that?

Just that, you know, I recognize that I also felt that the way that I conducted myself is something that I ended up presenting in myself. I still hold a lot from the pandemic as well, less about how he showed up for me, but more about how I showed up for myself and how I conducted myself because I felt that I was very I almost felt like it felt tyrannical. That's the word I always have in my head. I feel like a tyrant.

Because you were scared?

I was terrified. I mean I realized I had a lot of anxiety issues around Contamination and I mean I woke up every morning and I looked at the numbers and I would read the graphs and it was a moment that I wasn't really proud of. Uh, in retrospect, I don't know if I could have done anything differently'cause we didn't know what this thing was at the time. And I was trying to protect us. I mean, that's how I remember it. It was very li felt very life or death at the time. Yeah. But I think that.

You brought up your entire cultural arsenal.

Yeah.

Hehehehe

Yeah.

But I understand that underneath this was fear. In the same way that when you say I'm holding on tight to my autonomy in a kind of a defensive way. It's not because I trust it so well that it's gonna manifest. It's because I actually experience its fragility. Uh the same way that you become rigid when you are scared and it looks like you're a controlling dude.

The yeah, the fear of uncertainty.

I guess what you're saying is like He's not the absolute truth just because

Because it sounds like it. Right.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.

And it's your opportunity.

Yeah.

I think when the pandemic finally you know, the vac we were vaccinated

We don't understand each other anymore.

It's like we had I don't know how you might describe it a bit differently, but I when I came out I had a new l lease on life. I was just like I lost. Yeah. I went in twenty eight and I came out thirty, thirty one. And it it's something about hitting thirty while inside and not having that ability to

Yeah, when you got out it was you were on a mission, but I think for me the aftermath was feeling like I lost friendships because I just was isolated when my friends were out non isolating, you know, they were out and about making connections or memories that I wasn't a part of, so I felt like I lost out on that. And then I guess there was a whole cultural conversation around race at the time and again because I was isolated I didn't really get to experience that as well because

They describe the lockdown The suffocation, how it exacerbated all their dynamics. but also what was happening in the world outside. Here was Black Lives Matter, as he calls it, a whole racial conversation was taking place that I could not participate in. And that was one in which I may have found some of that very Assertiveness, autonomy, confidence, self-worth that I was struggling with without having to do it alone.

So yeah, you I think you were thriving and I was not.

I'd call it thriving. I the way I describe it and I think it matches our styles too is that w I came out feeling this urgency, this anxiety to make up for less time, which always forces me into action. And I think you experienced it more of a kind of like a a sadness or a depression and it made you just kind of like Kind of feel like defeated, like the wind had been sucked out of your sails, like you had lost everything. You would always say, I just lost this and I lost that.

felt the same coming back. So yeah, I c I kinda felt like

And then what did you do?

I think I'm still in that process of finding my way. But I think finding my way was going inward, figuring out what I liked, connecting with myself. And I think in a way I became a recluse'cause I didn't wanna like socialize. I think I developed a anxiety of socialization. I didn't really wanna talk to people as much. I kinda became a the opposite of what I became going into the pandemic.

Was it real that they had left you?

Yeah.

It's like we switched roles.

Swiss rolls. I didn't feel relevant.

Yeah, wow, wow.

I didn't feel relevant. I guess I didn't feel important anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But you see the the interesting thing is that It may look like when you're wearing your I'm out and about. socially hyperactive on the scene phase, that that was an expression of confidence. What I'm hearing from you is that that was a way of dealing with the lack of confidence.

I don't think it's not a good thing.

I don't really think it. And so then somehow you think this is the problem now because you're no longer going out and reaching in the same way. But maybe this is actually Not the problem, but the first version was not necessarily the problem, but the first version was

Yeah.

As long as it was fast and constant, so you don't have to think Yeah. In a way. This is more painful. This is what you've defended against all along. But this actually gives you the opportunity to really develop the confidence.

Yeah, like I put a lot of value on what party I was going to, what friend that I made, how what hookup I had, and the frequency of it all, I guess in my mind meant that I mattered.

I don't want to speak for you, but th my interpretation of how things were is that you started to look to me. You felt like without me, you were lost. Like without you, no one wants to hang out with me. They all want to do with you. And I'm like, what is this? You were the one that brought me into the fold. You were the one that showed me so much. You were the one that

It's amazing. You actually did rely on him to be your fun machine. The same way that he somewhere relied on you to be the container that reminded him that it's time to come home on occasion. but he didn't like it, but he knew he needed it somewhere. And you, in a way, Also needed him to be delightful fun seeking guy when he actually turns to you with the gravitas.

Yeah, I never thought of it that way.

Yeah.

Say it in your own words.

I wanted that closeness and intimacy from you and I wanted you to almost be more serious and when the moment it started to happen, it was almost like the very thing that I was asking you for before. I was now cursing you for not giving me. Yeah. So you kind of probably felt like you were in a catch twenty two.

Well yeah, I just definitely felt inadequate because it was like, Well the one thing that I'm good at I'm not even doing which is like the fun and like, you know, Making things happen, cheering you up, I had become the cloud now. and I guess obsolete to you, you know, in that period. So then We're both kind of like something needs to kind of happen. We need to shake things up.

This whole session we are tracking the progression of the relationship. From the beginning to where they are now. Now they're at an impasse. They're constantly picking at each other They can't take it anymore and they decide we need to do something. If we need to do something, it seems to them that only a structural shift can stop the repeated patterns that they are caught in.

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I said we needed to change something. I don't know what it was that we needed to do, but I knew it couldn't go status quo. We both agreed that it just could not go on like this. Yeah. And we eventually landed on what we s called a de-escalation. of our relationship where we would effectively break up. But the board breakup didn't feel like it fit. for me it just felt like we're not gonna do the divorce

Yeah.

And we just were like, we just need some time to breathe. That was the decision. And I won't lie and say there wasn't a practical elements to the decision too, because like m living in an expensive city also means like, okay, are you gonna live by yourself? So maybe the more traditional way would have been to give each other some physical space. Yeah. But we decided like at least for now we need to be able to do like a live in separation or de-escalation.

And you draw the line at sex.

Yeah. Yeah.

But not physical intimacy generally. Right. There's been times where we Cuddle, sleep in the same bed.

Hugs, all that, you know. Affection.

Yeah.

So, you know, it i externally people see or our friends and you're like, Yeah, what are you d what's going on? Like, you know, or most people go like, well, what's really different?

Yeah.

What's different is that you try to create a demarcation that would enable you to have a much more differentiated relationship. Yeah. Where not everything one of you does, the other one has a reaction to. So you can call it de escalating, but the de-escalation is connected to the differentiation. Yeah. Now of course the interesting thing is how does it work? And why is it that the no sex becomes the thing that helps you do this? Because if you ask, you know Where do we go from here?

Mm-hmm.

So how do you the issue is not how do we go from this back to being a romantic couple. The issue is how do we maintain a more differentiated stance in our romantic relationship.

Yeah. to maintain our individual autonomy of ourselves.

Having had the independence to live my life a bit more separately has allowed me to re-engage with that part of myself that I I thought was lost when I was feeling so rigid in the old dynamic. And I've seen changes in him too. So now we're like, are these changes that we're seeing where we're having more fun together, we're hanging out in a way that feels better, like something we haven't felt in a long time. Are they a by product of us being a separated?

But they are going together. It's the kind of separation that is enabling each of you to strengthen certain parts inside of you without needing the other person to do it for you.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. If he's not my... boitoy, then I have to become more connected to the part of me that wants fun and deal with the anxiety that comes with it. if I don't have him being the Mr. Structure and Containment, then I have to find some of this myself. Without thinking that that makes me boring and unwanted and undesirable as a friend and all of these associations that come with what you have called wholesome.

I like a lot of things. Um

You're a music guy, right?

They have a music guy. Hip hop, R and B, pop, you know what I mean? Throw in a little Britney Spear, you know.

Well, so that's the thing you need to remember is he may like other music and it doesn't change how you like the music you like. Yeah. Because that's inside of you. That's something you feel very clear and confident about. So if he says I hate that kind of music or how can you listen to this or come and listen to whatever what are you into?

A more like rock music.

Okay.

All right.

You know, it doesn't ruffle you. That feeling that you have around music is what you want to develop around the other things in life.

Yes. That's what it is. It's just making more decisions that are totally based off of no influence from anyone else or anyone. You get to actually know exactly what you want. Like you and you get what you want instead of like either compromising with someone else or

It's funny you bring up music because it's been a place that we've connected even though it's so different for us. Like it's like a sphere that we kinda meet at. We go to karaoke, we and we have so much fun. We sing in the house. We like we both like to sing. But w you know, I put on m my country rock song and you're just you know, you listen to it and then you put on your R and B pop song and I listen to it and then we kind of like

each other notes.

So you have a template.

Yeah.

It gives you a sense of what does it feel like? When it's more differentiated.

Yeah.

So how do I maintain that closeness to him, that intimacy with him, without that sense that I relinquish, that I melt into him?

Yes. That's the question now. We do go back to this. Can I build this autonomy or work on this individual piece of me? without being distracted by you and maybe the things that trigger me about you and what you're doing.

That's the next level of differentiation.

Yeah.

You get to have your opinion. But mine doesn't dissolve because of it. And neither does it have to become belligerent. Defensive.

Oh defensive, right, offensive, yes.

Fight.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know. So why the urgency to solve the riddle now?

I think it's like can we go on like this forever?

Why f well forever? Go on, first of all. It doesn't have to be forever versus now. Yesterday versus never.

For me I guess it's a a limbo of like, are we together, are we not together, are we just kinda roommates just with the connection, you know? I I guess it's Me wanting a definition and then like

in order to

than a further commitment. I guess of like, are we gonna continue living together for the next 10 years? Are we gonna get married? 'Cause

Yeah.

It's a long time, you know what I mean? Or are we gonna eventually move out and kind of really, really make that transition? So I guess it's just getting out of the limbo. that we've been in for like

A year.

A year now, so

Or is the question is is the current state that we're in holding us back from other like there's nothing on relationshi

She's the main piece of it

And no there's nothing on paper. No one's holding each other back.

No.

But like are we psychologically holding ourselves back um I don't necessarily dislike it. I just don't know if you can do it in perpetuity.

No, forget the perpetuity for a second. You keep going back and forth between on the spot versus never.

Mm-hmm.

but what if if you ever wondered that in fact it is the very lack of definition That looseness that can feel destabilizing that is also creating the space for both of us to actually make the changes that we've been wanting to make. When we were defined and committed, we got stuck. You're not stuck, you're undefined, which is contrary to traditional script.

Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

I like that.

You know, what are you? Are you really together? Are you not together? Are you sleeping together? You're not sleeping together. Do you see other people? Do you not see other people? It's kind of summarized in four or five questions.

Yeah. You'd be surprised how many people ask you straight up.

Of course.

You feel like you're on the defense, like you have to litigate your

You can also just say it's probably one of the better times we've had in a long time. It is. That's all we can say. Something about this terra non ferma, this moving ground underneath us, is actually doing us good. And if we decide at some point not to stay together, we will have developed... a type of maturity in relationships that we can take with us in life. It's like because we feel better we should stop this and make a decision.

Ha ha ha. Yeah.

Because I feel better I can take off the brace. But it is the brace that is helping me walk better.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's keeping on for a little longer. Because it's creating movement and you need a movement and you need a change that is individual. You're working on your own stuff in the context of a relationship that is Giving you the safety and the freedom both to deal with this. Even if it doesn't have a name and doesn't get defined and makes people curious and and all of that.

Yeah those comments we used to make stopped. in the last year. The digs and the Snide remarks and the trivialization of what we like and I have like a whole new perspective of him.

So we're learning how to be in relationship different. We're learning not to have our partner be part of a cover up operation of some of our inner challenges. And we have a unique opportunity. We love each other enough. To do this with each other. artificial it's not even artificial, but in this creative actually construct that we've just come up. Do you sleep with other people? What do you do sex wise? You hook up with other people, both of you. Okay. So you're not like starving for the

Okay.

And do you connect with each other? Do you hook up with each other on occasion?

It's happened over the f the year. It's always been something that's given me maybe a little bit more

Because you instantly think what does it mean? Does it mean we're back together? Does it mean we're gonna connect, we're gonna commit, we're gonna marry, we're gonna have children, we're gonna

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. What is it going to be?

You didn't become queer to do the straight lift

I know right. Sure.

Exactly.

Leave that!

Right. Right. That's so true.

I mean, I understand. It's like what does it mean if we cross that Rubicon again? You know? It means primarily that. We were into each other and we have a deep connection and we wanted to express it also physically and leave it at that for that night or morning or whatever.

Yeah. in limbo for about a year now and I know for me I'm kinda like I don't

That's what I'm doing.

Yeah, I do understand. Yeah, I do, yeah. It makes a lot of

Okay.

A lot of sense.

So you asked where we go from here and my my only thought that accompanied me the whole time is if this thing continues as it is going and it feels good, you will have your answer. But don't choke it. Yeah. Because it it we should know, we should know, we should know. We know. What we know is what we are experiencing that is not in the title, but that is in the actual interaction, in the things that are changing inside of us and between us.

Yeah.

It's like th there's nothing somebody from the outside can can answer here. It's really the quality of the relationship is going to be with what you decide.

Yeah. And I I like that concept of like if we did you know, somehow make the ground stop moving under rest. It wouldn't allow for the movement forward. We would neither get stuck again or I don't know. Just it wouldn't allow us to keep moving forward. So in a way the uncertainty is the medicine, I guess.

Yes.

So often people ask me if they should work on themselves, in quote. before they can be in a relationship. And this is a very accepted notion in our very individualistic society. Go away, retreat, have a relationship with yourself. work out the kinks and then when you feel good about yourself then go and find someone who's gonna feel equally good about you as you do.

Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhe, and the Speaker. Muller and Julian Hatton. Original Music and Additional Production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

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