I Have a Crush on a Coworker

In this following session, we discuss assault and I want you to know this before you listen.

Hi, Esther. I am calling because I have a crush on someone I work with. And I'm not sure what, if anything, I should do about it.

The reason I'm conflicted is because one, I'm newly divorced. I've been divorced for six months. And while it was a long time coming and I've made peace with it, it still feels very fresh. And I'm not sure when is the proper amount of time I should be waiting before I start a new romantic relationship.

And the other piece is the fact that we work together. We are on the same team, so it seems that there are many ways that this could go badly and that deters me from entering a romantic relationship with this person. And at the same time, I feel very drawn towards this person and can't help but want to pursue a romantic relationship with him. So I would appreciate some guidance and insight from you. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Breakthrough the busiest.

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Is your crush shared, known, or held in your internal fortress? So I'm pretty certain that it is shared. It hasn't been talked about. We haven't really said anything to each other about it. But I'm very confident that he feels the same way. Tell me more about How the crush came to be known to you? Was it there before, but it waited for the permission to reveal itself to you because you were still in the unraveling of your marriage?

So it wasn't known to me or I didn't realize it until the divorce happened. we had been working together for a while before that and with this job that I have I made a lot of new friends and I kind of overlooked him, to be honest, and thought uh it just wasn't even a thought in my head. But during my divorce I went out with a few of my work colleagues, including him

And I had a thought, like, wow, this person is easy to be around. I really enjoy spending time with him. Like it's nice to know that there are nice, attractive guys out there that I share more interest with. And that's when I kind of started crushing on him a little more. It's become a verb now. Okay. Yes. Yes. And after my divorce was finalized, I went out dancing with a few

friends and he was there and we danced together and it was very nice. I enjoyed it. And then I thought, oh boy. Um I kind of like this person. And I just haven't been sure like what to do with that information. It kind of freaks me out that I'm in this situation. Because you work together, because you just recently divorced, because of the timing of it, because of the surprise of who it is. Because it's a feeling that you don't know. There are many possibilities. What freaks you out?

So a few of the things you said, um The fact that I am so recently divorced and there's more to that story too. Like Yep, I'm gonna ask. I was um I was gonna go out to a show with a a bunch of friends. It was a big group of us, including my crush, and for one reason or another everybody kinda backed out of it last minute. So it was just gonna be me and him.

And this is when we were already in the divorce process. So like emotions were kind of high and my husband like totally freaked out about it and he was like saying a lot of really negative things. about my coworker and basically that he was just a player, that he was looking for like the right place and right time to make a move on me.

And because he didn't know that we were getting divorced it made it worse because he didn't, you know, check in to make sure it was okay that I was going with just him. And he said a lot of really horrible things that made me kind of doubt my coworkers' intentions, even though he had never really done anything to like show me that his heart wasn't in the right place.

'Cause after all of that happened and the divorce was finalized, like I went out to a movie with him and his other friend who was a female and she's married and they're like old friends and they hang out sometimes and it was completely um What's the word I'm searching for? He was clear. He wasn't premeditated. Right. He wasn't conspiring one thing while presenting one thing while conspiring for another. Right.

But before I knew that and my husband had kind of put all of these things in my head about him, I had a lot of doubt about this person. I was like you know, is he just an opportunist kind of waiting for the right place and the right time? That sort of put me off.

Of course the fact that we work together, I mean everybody tells you that you shouldn't date a coworker, that it, you know, don't crap where you eat and all of that. And also like if it didn't work out, that would be very awkward'cause we're on the same team, we work in the same department. So that potentially is not a great idea.

Tell me about your marriage and your divorce. You told me kind of the last gift your husband dropped in your lap, which was to make you doubt yourself and your judgment of people. What preceded and what led to where you ended? So I guess just for some background, we met when we were young. Um, we went to high school together, but we never actually met in high school.

until, you know, way down the road after college. We were both twenty-two when we met. And at the time I was coming out of a lot of really abusive relationships. and feeling rather fragile and like I just needed some stability in my life. Of course. And he was kind of that opportunity for me because he had a good head on his shoulders, he was a good person, stable job, so it just kind of made sense.

He treated me very well and I felt very safe around him. But as time went on, it became clear that we didn't share a lot of the same interests and I didn't feel very emotionally supported by him throughout our entire marriage. And that was really harmful to me. Like I had all of my comforts, you know, financial stability. Lived in a beautiful house. Anything that I needed was taken care of.

However, there is a big emotional gap there and there were multiple it was like death by a thousand cuts. There were a lot of different things that made me feel completely alone in the marriage. And we ended up separating for a short period of time a few years ago. we decided to get back together and give it another shot. I had said, you know, this is what I need in order to continue with the with the marriage.

And things got better a little bit and then they kind of fell off again. I didn't feel like there was much effort. on his part and investing in the emotional side of our relationship and working through the things that that were hurting me. and it just reached a point where I became emotionally detached because I was so exhausted.

from all of this work that I was trying to put into it. And there were obviously like hurt feelings on both sides of it. But that's kind of in a nutshell what happened. If there was a cartoon

of the two of you, what would the bubble above your head say, and what would the bubble above his head say? If you had one line That's a good question. Um mine would say I need you to understand me. I need you to see me. And his would say, but you're not forgiving me for anything. You're not moving on. And what would you have to forgive him for? All the times he didn't show up for me when I needed him to.

the times where he stood me up to family events and to things that were very significant to me. For the times where I told him what was important to me and it was brushed aside.

There's a lot of grief there too. Yeah. And part of what I'm hearing in your question is: is my crush? A grief reaction or an expression of desire? Right. I want to make sure that this is coming from a place of genuine interest and compatibility versus, you know, a bounce back. Finding things in the other person that I didn't have in my marriage. Mm-hmm. How many years were you together with your husband? Um we were together for nine years and we were married for six of those years. Okay.

And was there anything to what he was saying about but you're holding on? I can't repair with you because you stay in the flats of the rupture? I didn't feel like that was fair because I had forgiven him over and over and over again and remained very hopeful. um chose to stay in the marriage because I wanted to make it work. But yet the past was still present, even after we decided to give another shot and get back together after separation.

he still stood me up to an event and then he said, But you're not forgiving me. You have to you have to trust me that I won't do it again. And he gave me no reason to trust him after that. So I didn't feel that that statement was fair. Maybe after the first time it would have been fair if I had kept bringing it up. But after, you know, the third, fourth, fifth time that And how did you understand it? Lack of care, lack of understanding of what's important to you, selfishness, misunderstanding.

I mean, I interpreted it like he just doesn't care because I've told him the significance of what's important to me and why that's important to me. And so If he still isn't showing up then that's to me like wilfully negligent. So you divorced him? Yes. Did we divorce you? He made it clear that he is still there for me. I think that he will move on eventually, but because we separated and got back together once before, I think maybe he didn't believe me that I was leaving.

So I don't know if he's truly divorced me or Or not. Do you share similar circles? Hm, not really. We used to. Um, but we had a falling out with our only group of friends that we hung out with. So we really didn't share friends.

And therefore the friends at work became of utmost importance to you. Right. I didn't have a community. I felt very isolated and didn't really have a large circle. So when I met the people at work that have now become my friends, it's sort of

opened my whole world up. And you don't want to fuck it up. Yeah. I don't want to mess that up. Yes. I love the people I work with and they're all wonderful people and I don't want to I if if me and my coworkers started dating and things didn't work out, it would be awkward. In the midst of our session. There is still so much. Yeah. Stay with us. Where should we begin? Don't fall prey to the idea. Stylish means you have to do that. Quite the opposite. Wardrobe with quality.

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My first thought when you said I have a crush, and I just thought maybe the first thing that came to my mind was to say to you, Sabre it. I mean, even if you keep it to yourself. Just the idea that After loss, after endings, when you re experience for the first time openness, eyes that look outward. People you feel drawn to, intense attraction, desire, crushes, savor it. You don't have to be out of control. You can just be pleased with the fact that you're alive, that your erotic energy is back.

Not just sexually, in the sense of open, curious, imaginative, telling stories to yourself, fantasizing about possibilities. Before you get all anxious. It's a separate issue. What shall I do about it? And how do I make space for this moment, this experience? Maybe he is just rebound because he brings back that energy inside of me and it will manifest itself and express itself with someone else. But that transition itself of what happens after you close a door.

And when you wonder when where will I have that feeling again, when you have it, it's a bit scary because it's messy, because crushes feel unruly. They are hard to contain, they want to take over, but they can also be very generative energy. So just that was the first thing I thought about. Savour it.

But then when you tell me the past continues to be present, I had a series of abusive relationships. I met my ex. And he came as an anchor, a force of stability, someone who wouldn't hurt me. And basically what he told me at the end was if you get yourself go with that other dude, he's gonna hurt That's the subliminal message. So tell me a little bit about this trajectory. Before you met your ex, what w I mean?

You didn't have a crush on your ex. It was a rational decision. You know, and sometimes we go back and forth between passionate relationships and reasonable relationships. Between what I am drawn to and what may be good for me. and these are major questions that many of us grapple with in terms of our love stories. So what happened before that made you choose him?

How did you miss because in effect you're saying, What am I not seeing with my crush? But it's what did you not see with your husband either? Because you were taken by the notion of he's solid, good job, house, you know. He's solid, but he may not be particularly emotionally attuned. And I don't know what preceded, but often the glasses we wear in one relationship When we take them off, allow us to see a whole bunch of stuff in the next relation.

Yeah, that's totally fair. Um before I met him, I had come out of two abusive relationships. The first one was the worst. Um I had a best friend in high school. We both went off to college our first year and came back that summer together and she introduced me to this man that she was friends with. And He and I had a week-long fling. Um, it was a lot of fun. He was really smart. But he was also dealing with a mental illness and during the time we were together he

I guess went off of his medication and was sort of in withdrawals. And that caused him to behave really abusively towards me. And it really harmed my self esteem. He told me a lot of things uh about myself. in attempt to try to get me to open up to him. And I was nineteen, I I didn't know myself really that well and And he was with? He I think was twenty or twenty one. He's a couple of years older. Can I invite you just so that I don't make false assumptions?

If you here and there can be a little more specific. It will help me understand you. Because abusive can mean a lot of different things. Playing with my head can mean a lot of things. Mental health illness can mean a lot of things. Right. So If I can ask for a little bit little bit of filling the gaps. I know we're only meeting one hour and I do not want to ask you to open anything that we cannot close. Okay.

Okay. Well to be more specific, he had uh bipolar disorder. Yep. And um there was a lot of verbal abuse. just breaking me down mentally. He told me that there were certain things about myself that weren't attractive physically and just emotionally that I was immature, that I was shallow. And it definitely screwed my head. And then when he actually came off of the medication it escalated to the point where um he hit me across the face. Um

Then he had a complete emotional breakdown and was crying. He broke a plate and said that he was gonna cut himself with it if I left. and then I went upstairs'cause we were in the basement of his family's home. So I went upstairs to his parents and then he followed me and then physically assaulted his father. um, push him down and was just raving, um, out of his mind, angry. So that was the first relationship that I got out of.

Um, then I find out my my best friend who introduced us kinda ghosted me after that, didn't hear from her, and then she later told me that she had been hanging out with him after that happened. And I didn't realize it at the time, but in hindsight I think that maybe they had some sort of relationship that was going on that I didn't know about. So um not only it was like insult to injury, like not only had I been through this ordeal,

ended up dropping out of college because I was so upset about it. Um, but now I lost my best friend. So that was awful.

And I can't remember how long it was after, probably a year or so, a year or two, I got into another relationship. and the guy was love bombing me. He was escalating the relationship very quickly, telling me what I wanted to hear. saying that he loved me, that he wanted to build a future with me and I went for it. We moved in together. And then things escalated again with him. He became very jealous and he was just very possessive. Um, didn't want me to have a relationship with my family.

Ah, okay. So that's that version. Right. Because one version is that from being idealized you become demonized. the other version is from being a free person, you become a possession and you become the person who is recruited to deal with a lot of abandonment issues and that manifests in jealousy. Correct. You're exactly right. He was adopted And he had a lot of abandonment issues from his upbringing. Yeah. And I was not equipped to deal with that. I didn't know

even how to identify what was happening. I just knew that it felt wrong and I felt Very trapped, but and things escalated into me feeling physically unsafe where he would yell and scream and put holes through walls I had to lock myself in the bathroom a few times so that he couldn't get into me and then I finally you know, left, packed up all my stuff in my car and just got the heck out of there and moved back in with my parents. How long did that last?

It was not long. Okay. I think f from the time we met to the time we broke up, it was probably less than a year.

So one thing that just jumps at me is in these two well is a lot of things. It's like you had a lot of experience in your formative years. And Tough experience, challenging ones, but you have very good survival instincts. You know when it's off. And it takes a moment to organize. But then you go. This is the third time you're doing it, right? You left boyfriend one, you left boyfriend two, you left husband three. You have a sense in you when it's off.

And I don't know if you did it alone or if you had good support or if you found other friends. Or your parents, or your family, or your civilian I don't know who's around you, but who who accompanies you through these various stages of life? Because a chunk of it is developmental stages. And you're telling me about these boyfriends, but you may have had other relationships and other friendships that actually were not abusive and destructive and intimidating and frightening. So

I I'm I'm looking just through one very small keyhole here. So give me just a tiny bit. Who who has accompanied you? Because even in boyfriend one. Part of what kind of got to you that he got to play with your head and talk about you as being shallow, which I have a feeling you don't think of yourself as shallow at all, and you certainly don't think of yourself as dumb.

Which is part of why he impressed you because you thought he was smart. And that, you know, you thought we are part of a similar inclination. and you have a very good way of understanding what the dynamic was. I don't know if you're left wondering why didn't I see or should I have seen it sooner or should I have reacted sooner? I also want you to cut slack at nineteen you're nineteen. At twenty two you're twenty two.

And what you're highlighting may not be the sum total of what actually has been shaping. You're right. It's a very small snapshot of my relationships up to that point. I do have good solid support from my family. My mom and my dad I'm both very close with. they didn't have a very great relationship and I think I mean I did have, you know, boyfriends in high school that that treated me well. So it's definitely not like these are the only experiences I've had.

But I guess leading up to that point, like my parents' relationship and marriage had sort of disintegrated after I graduated high school. So I went off to college and when I came back for winter break, they were divorced. In living separate places. So I think I was really upset about that. I was feeling very vulnerable and lost. Was that a total surprise? No. It was not a surprise. Like I knew they didn't really get along. But they waited for you to be gone. Right.

So that was like clear to me. It it didn't mean that it was any less difficult, but I understood it. Yeah. How much have these three experiences left you doubting yourself or wondering what am I missing? Or or are you able to put it in a broader context of your life and say, I've had better, I've had Less good and I've had some that I cringe when I think about. I think I can put it more into context now because I've always landed on my feet and that built a lot of confidence in me over the past

fifteen odd years that I've had these experiences. That's what I meant by good survival instincts. You land on your feet, it I I see it. Yeah. We have to take a look at the So stay with you. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from shop. The early days of starting a business are equal parts exciting and terrifying. It's a big risk, but it's one worth taking as long as you have the right to And if

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What is the question or the fear that inhabits you in relation to? this crush. I said I have a feeling you were asking me, is it a grief reaction? Which if so, you need to tell me what that means for you. Or am I really drawn and entering a new era and a new stage of my life again? I think the fear is that I'm gonna fall too quickly into something again because that was the common theme.

in my relationships, it didn't work out. I got involved way too quickly. I didn't take things slowly to try to get to know the person very well before I made a commitment to them. to be in a relationship. So my fear is that I'll get caught up in my emotions again, think, you know, ah, this is such a great person, I'm having so much fun, and then find myself in the same situation where I'm with somebody that

is not good for me long term. Okay. And I don't know if I'm making up reasons why I shouldn't pursue something that could potentially be really good for me.

So I'm kind of struggling with that. Except that you just did a very interesting glitch. You went from I fall, I get blindsided, I get all flattered. I miss out. When in fact what you're asking me is how do I let this thing ripen, like a fruit? And how do I slow it down? That doesn't mean I check out. That doesn't mean I pass. It means that I um I fantasize by myself and I take things and I let the relationship mature. Somewhat. That's very different from hit or miss.

What you just described is I lose myself, I plunge, or I check out. And what you're asking me is: how do I enter? The house, spend some time in the lobby, go into the living room, discover the kitchen, go to the bedroom, the rooms, How do I transition from crush and fantasy to actually meeting the person? How do I let the person enter my world without having a relationship with my crush completely? How would you do it? Let's walk through the steps of a slower Building of a relationship.

Yeah. Well part of why I am excited by my crush is because we have known each other for a year just as friends. And I have met one of his friends just from his life that he's had long term and that felt really good to me. So I've really enjoyed just getting to know him in that context. So I think if that could be translated into just spending time together. and learning more about each other. That could be How do you imagine it?

I mean I would imagine it is like going on really good dates. Um, going and doing activities that we both enjoy together. Which we already have, but it wasn't in the context of a date. You want it to be in the context of a date or you want to still be going as friends? I would like it to be in the context of a date. You do. I do. You're very clear about that. Yes.

But for that to happen, you can go in two versions, right? There are probably many more. But one version is you you you pre-establish that the relationship is changing. And in the other, you go as friends and it unfolds that there is more here. Sure. I didn't consider that. Thank you. Um I didn't consider that. I can feel it kind of going in that direction already, just with the times we have. Spent together as friends?

the time where we went dancing with with a few other friends, the other friends just kind of went away and it was just us. So I can kind of feel it like organically progressing that way. And it was just really nice, you know. And it didn't have to be like in a category, it just kind of was. And I enjoyed that. It was really refreshing. I haven't really had anything like that. Like that meaning. Something that progressed organically. Right. That's what I meant by ripening.

Sure. Yes, organically ripening. It's the same. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's the same. It's exactly it. At this moment. Maybe there is less for you to do than to allow for what is happening to continue to manifest. I'm just An overthinker, I think. Um I think things to death and Yeah, yeah. I see Yeah. Um if you didn't already know that by now. Um use it wisely. It's not in but not in this context. In this context you I mean, you are thinking, but you're also telling me something is developing.

We are both active participants in it. It's not like it's happening unbeknownst to us. He knows you're recently divorced. Mm-hmm. So he may think I wait for her. She just came out, he may think it's like you wait for a little bit of a clue from him, he waits for a little bit from a clue from you, and there is something very teasing about that too.

you kinda feel the vulnerability of the uncertainty, you don't know, you would like to know, you would like to firm it up, but at the same time you don't want to be bold about it because if it's not mutual then you're gonna be rejected and you don't want to experience that either. So you tiptoe, he tiptoes you know, and then at some point Sometimes people are in the middle of a dance, in the middle of a song, in the middle of a walk, and they reach out for each other.

They don't have a conversation about it necessarily. They reach out to each other because they feel it, they know it, and they can trust it. It's a little less rushed, it's a little less impulsive, it's less coming from a place of I can't control this force that is rising inside of me and I I'm about to succumb, I'm about to succumb. It's it is there, but it is held preciously.

And you may need to meet him two, three more times. That's not like this is a five year uh ripening process. I would hope not. I think I don't think that would be very fulfilling to me. No. No. That would be frustrating. Yes, yes, yes. Um in your head you're rearranging your work so that you would feel that the route is clear and you're not gonna be stepping in

You know, contradictory interests and things like that. But I wanna understand. You worry about it not being reciprocal? No, because you feel that it's mutual. You worry about going fast and not really looking around because you have done that at other times.

So then the next thing is how do you move with your eyes open? So a part of that involves talking to other people. Who know him, who are working with him or who have friends. Because a major piece of dating these days, sometimes, is that People don't involve enough of their lives in the dating. So they d they date one on one.

And if you do one on one all the time, you'd really lack all the context of a person's life that allows you to know more about who they are, how they react, how they treat other people. What's been their story, what are the other major events of their love lives, etc. So since you work together, since he's been there for a while, since you know each other for a year, there are other people around.

then you can invite a few of them to go out with you or to come to your home and um Certainly going out with people and yes, you what you uh you have a sense is that others are sensing something is happening between the two of you. Then go to some of the people that you trust and that you know b more and just check and say, Am I inventing this or is this really what happened? Yeah, I talked to one friend about it.

And she said, you know, I was wondering if something would happen between you guys after you became single again. I was wondering about that. And I said, Oh, really? Okay. Um Next question, what makes you think that? go back and c what makes you what you know And is this just youth wandering or is this a collective wandering here in the unit or whatever in the department? But it's kind of what is it that you people have been feeling, sensing?

Anticipating and often that colective sniff is very important. I don't like that. That's funny. There's a way in which people have a sense, incoherent, sometimes unarticulated, of energies between people. These two It looks like. I wonder if And meaning that you don't have to deal with all of this just by yourself. Use other radar. That's that's a great idea. I got to talk a little bit with his good friend that we went to a movie with and it was all three of us. just kind of talking

you know, I learned a lot about him. And that was really great to just hear a different perspective on this person who I have my own experience with, but like how how is he perceived by the other people in his life? Yep. Yep. What did you learn? What's one thing that stood out? Um, he's very competitive. He's extremely competitive, which I knew, but I didn't I didn't quite know until I talked to her. He played competitive sports growing up, that's how they met.

and she said he always had to be first. He always had to be the first one. And I said, Oh, where did that come from? And he was like, I don't I don't know. I just always had to be first. He said, I'm better about it now. I don't I don't need to be first anymore, but Yeah, I was I was that person. And I I thought that was very interesting.

I I found it very attractive. I found it endearing that he's, you know, very determined and very, you know, stubborn. Those are qualities that I also have in different aspects of my life. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And when you have a crush The beauty of a crush is that it has an imaginative capacity of interpreting everything in the positive. Everything becomes a draw.

Yeah. It's just my anxiety that makes it negative, right?'Cause, you know, he he's very different than me in a lot of different ways. He's like probably one of the least politically correct people I've ever met in my life. And there are certain things that he'll say sometimes that just make me cringe and roll my eyes and then

he'll laugh and then I'm like, Why would why would you say something like that? And then he'll say, Oh, you know, it's it's more me making fun of it than anything and um You know, those things stick in my mind like, oh, is that a red flag or is it just like a difference between us? So take your time, collect your info, spend time with him. I mean, there is Except for this notion that if I don't do it now it may slip through my fingers.

There is nothing that's pushing you. Sometimes the push comes from I need to know that I've moved on and that I'm in a new phase and that I've met so you know, but you can regulate that. It's not is this grief or is this regeneration? It's how do I allow for this new experience? But I also don't need to let it completely sweep me. You know. I mean crush and passion swe follows the language of I I was swept. I can't control any of this. It just it takes me over.

Everything can be reinterpreted. And then there is a piece inside of you that says, but open your eyes, watch a tiny bit more. They don't stand in opposition. In fact, when you interpret something in the total positive and you embellish it and turn it, you know You could ask the voice inside of you that is more reluctant and more cautious and more on the anxious side, hey, what do you think? It could actually develop a bit of a stereophonic system. Yeah, just sort of a balance.

Between the those two Yeah. What does this one say to that one? What is this one notice that that one didn't? How do these two approaches, those two voices inside of you, these two parts of you at this moment communicate with each other? And sometimes you may have to say to one, Can you just move aside for a second? I need to hear the other one because you've been so loud in my ear. If I only listen to you I'll j

You know. And then sometimes you say, you know, you're s so constraining and you're so distrusting and you're so fearful. Maybe you could push aside for a minute and I can go and and They don't have to be in a balance, but they have to be in a dialogue. They need to make space for each other because each one is telling you something important. It's not an easy thing to do because crush doesn't like to be reasoned with and reason hates to lose control.

And you have a task inside of you that seeks to integrate these two and that didn't start today. It's not a new dilemma for you Is that accurate?

Yeah, I I think trusting myself has always been a journey or like a learning experience. Because there were a lot of times in my life where I didn't feel like I could trust my own judgment. And then outside voices. telling me I couldn't trust my own judgment, that I was somebody that needed to be protected, that I was somebody that, you know, that was fragile. And I don't I don't think that way about myself. I I don't think that's who I am.

So each step that I've taken in my life to stand on my own feet independently, to live on my own, to create a a career a fulfilling career without a college degree, to pursue my passions. all of these things like gave me a lot of confidence. It's just the relational pie like that's me on my own, right? Like now it's just the relational piece where it's me in relation with others. It's not you r you on your own.

It's you on your own with work and that is a system of relationships. It's you with your parents and that's relationships. It's you with your friends and that's relationships. You're creating a juxtaposition that is not accurate.

I understand what you're saying. This one is about me and the romantic relationship brings in a whole other dimension. And I'm suggesting that you take your strength your relational strengths, your confidence, your radar, your ability to look around you, all of that, and that you bring some of it into Maybe tempering the crush a tiny bit.

But not making it disappear, not making it either about passion or about constraint and reason. But listen here and listen there and listen because they live together. Yeah. I guess a better way of saying it is like my relationship with myself versus my relationships with others. Will you keep me posted? Yeah, of course. Just send me a voice message at some point so I know where all of it landed and when's the next time you went to dance.

Well, I there may be an opportunity for that coming up uh at the end of the month. So I'll let you know. Great. Keep me in on the details. I will. Thank you so much. Alright, thank you. Bye bye. This was an Est Air calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore,

Estare could be answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at EsterPorel.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhey, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack.