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Download the Viator app now and use code Viator10 for 10% off your first booking in the app. One app over 300,000 travel experiences you'll remember. Do more with Viator. Miss matched sexual desire or desire discrepancy is one of the most common problems that couples bring to sex therapy. She just never really enjoys it. Which is kind of depressing for me because pleasing my partner is like number one goal in sex.
I have a very, very low need for sexual anything. If I'm honest, I feel like he is in the mood always. Ideally, I would say I was every day. At the extremes, it's one person saying, if I never had sex again, I would notice it and I would miss it for a moment. And the other person saying, if I had it my way, I would want to have sex almost every day, if not every day. One person never interested. One person always interested. That kind of real pulls to the corners.
And this is what happens in this couple. The problem really came when we were done with babies because that's when he assumed that our sex life wouldn't start up again like normal. And I think he never realized that those years I was kind of just going along to go along. Recently, because we've been trying to have more, we're probably, I mean, not every day, but it's pretty close, like, 20 times a month.
So, I mean, the frequency at this point is not an issue, it's just, test case scenario is not uncomfortable for her. They have tried quite a few things lately. Red Books, consulted people, watched videos, educated themselves, and they have begun to understand that while it looks like it's about a mismatch desire, there is way more that is occurring at a hard point. At a hard of their erotic stalemate. We've been married now for 17 years and we have four children.
We somehow miss this part about each other's somehow, even though we knew everything else. Welcome. Thank you. It's nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. And tell me what has helped, what has made a difference. I don't even know yet on what. I think for me, just knowing that sex is a kind of an expression of love for me, and it's like how I feel like a really deep connection with her.
And I think there's just, I had this, I had this stereotype, I was just, you know, guys want to have sex, they want to have sex. And I think that reading about that is being kind of connected to our relationship, I mean, an important part of our relationship kind of helped both of us kind of view it differently. So both of you? Did it change anything for you? Yeah, I don't think we ever talked about what sex was for our relationship before.
And I don't know, so I feel like just through, I guess, individual counseling and marriage counseling, we've learned to communicate better and express that. So I don't think I ever really realized why it was important before. So when you understood that sex for him is not just about getting off, but getting close. How did that land on you? It's hard because I understand that's what he, like how he feels connected, but it's not something I, sex is like, I don't know.
It's a very rarely pleasurable experience. It's not really something I'm particularly interested in. And I could very well do without it for most of the time and everything. Can I ask you? Because I understand that sex is an issue. And we came to talk about sex. What is the issue? How do you define the issue? I guess, like, in the last year, we've definitely started having sex more regularly.
I guess, you know, because we've known it's important, but I really like to make it pleasurable for my partner. And that's something that we just can't seem to make happen. I want her to enjoy it. Like the same way I enjoy it, or at least make it not uncomfortable. Like, you know, then it kind of leaves the other problems because then I start feeling bad that she's uncomfortable and then it kind of goes off the rails. How about you going, take me on the rails?
Yeah, like if I guess that's been the one negative and kind of talking about it more and like understanding more is like, I got way more aware of when she's just kind of doing it to do it. And that makes me feel bad. And then it kind of ends things like, you know, I don't know. So you stop. Yeah. And. And just yeah, that's that's it. I mean, you roll over, you talk about it, you weep, you get mad.
I mean, I usually go and finish myself because like, I'm that at least kind of helps me sleep. And then. I don't know, I definitely feel bad, but I also just, I know it's, you know, it's not her fault. Like it's not intentional. It's not. Yeah, like it's not something that she's doing on purpose to me, but it's also, I guess because I was looking for that closest and didn't get it. Like, I know that I'm not super cuddly or like really happy when I'm come to bed.
I try to consciously like still like, you know, cuddle her, but it's just not the same, I guess. And for you. Um, the issue is. I saw the issue as like just how different we view what sex is in our lives and our importance because we used to fight because the frequency was a problem. He used to get upset and take it very personally. Like if I didn't want to as if it was, you know, I found him unattractive or I wasn't happy with our marriage, which neither was true.
So now the frequency is probably what you're okay with. The frequency is not my preference, right? And like, sometimes I know going in, it's not going to be great for my end and I'm just kind of being there because I understand that this is important. And that's what he wants and expects. And then sometimes we muddle through it. I find. And then sometimes we don't because especially he gets.
I guess he's more aware, like he said. And how is that different for you between him not knowing what your experience is and him checking in with you noticing you're not into it. And then I feel bad. I mean, I always feel bad because I understand that this is what he needs. I feel differently that he's noticing you is that better that he's more aware of you more attuned to you. I don't know really. I mean, I feel like it ends up more or less with more disappointment.
So I don't know if that's like for him. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's, I don't really feel like it's changed much for me. Okay. So I have 10 questions. Maybe 15 for that matter. There's a lot of things I want to make sure I understand and they're not in order of importance, but you're using words and these words represent entire experiences. And I don't know what they represent for you. So first word is sex. What sex are we talking about?
I mean, it's normally a PIV sex or sometimes oral sex, but I mean, for me, like, it doesn't really matter what we're doing. Like, you know, if I can make her feel good, like, that's like the best for me, which it doesn't, I feel like it's never really happened. But that's almost more important than like my own orgasm or my own climax. When you say, I've never, I don't feel that I've ever given her much pleasure. What's that like for you?
I mean, it's disappointing. Like, it's frustrating. I want her to experience like the way I'm experiencing it. I think recently she's like, well, tell me like, what does it feel like for you? And I'm like, I can't even compare it to anything like, yeah, I can't think of something that is anywhere near like the level of like an orgasm for me. Like, if she does orgasm, I feel like, I don't know, you've described it as a as a burp. Like, I want her to kind of have that same like elation and that.
Just that feeling of like bliss and closeness and everything afterwards. See the loss for you. Do you experience it as a loss? I guess a little, she tends to just kind of get in her own way and get in her own head and literally if there's anything I could do to help her get past that I would, I just don't know what to do. I'm going to take a pen and paper because I have too many things that are thrown into my head and they're going too fast.
Okay, so I'll tell you words that are on my page, right? I'm going to ask you, define sex. Oh, I guess penis in the vagina. And that ends with an orgasm or should end with an orgasm. I guess, yes. When I ask them to define sex, Mrs. Hall very much performance driven, outcome driven model. Another way of thinking about sexuality is that sex is not just something you do, sex is a place you go.
With yourself inside yourself, with a partner or partners, and that it is an experience. And that is where I hope the conversation can go because it's become so restricted. Penance in a vagina that ends with an orgasm and so much pressure exists between them about that. One thing is quickly becoming clear to me is how to invite them to shift from a performance driven way of thinking about sex to a pleasure focus on sex. What feels good rather than what works?
And do you ever have sexual activity that isn't meant to end in an orgasm? I guess not. We'll cut it on the couch or hug or kiss or definitely not intended to be sexual. One thing that we've been working through is she has a pretty strong bristle reaction to touch in general. So we've been trying to non-sexual touch more, just hugging and kissing throughout the day when we see each other just to kind of... And does that feel different to you or that too could be?
I'm fine with that, because for the longest time I would not do much of that because it came with the demand. I felt like he would interpret that and then he'd be like, but you did that before, so why aren't you interested now? Or he would accuse me of trying to tease him? And so I kind of just backed off and just wouldn't do anything that would turn him on because the minute I turn him on he's going to want more.
And if I give him a kiss it's going to have to go all the way and so I'd rather not give him a kiss and not have to endure. Yeah, I'd rather not build up the expectation unless I know I'm willing to... I have to commit in my mind and... So I would have to mentally be able to say I can sustain it all the way until bedtime. But you think if I give him a signal at five, he's going to have an expectation at 10.
Yes. And so I would rather lower expectations and then be pleasantly surprised at the end versus having this problem. So she just described sex as the problem. And in this dynamic where one person is the pursuer and one person with holds or is avoidant, you can instantly see this negative cognition, this thought that says, stop right in the beginning because if you give him the slightest, he's going to want the whole thing. This is part of the vigilance.
Each constantly tracking and the other, vigilantly following every sign in the body, the eyes, the behaviors of the partner. So you have a whole strategy? I tried but you know I mean I don't necessarily know how effective it is because we've been finding out this on and off for a while now. I think that's one thing that I've learned though that it's something that we need to do during the day and that that will kind of help like normalize the touch to that.
At 10 when I go to touch her like it's not an immediate shutter like whistle which obviously is no fun to be on the receiving end of that. And so it's not fun for her because she's reacting the way so. Can I ask you something? Do you ever approach her after you have masturbated? So that you don't come with an acute edge? Approach her for sex or just for both. Not usually for sex. But even for sex actually it's more pertinent if it's for sex because one of the dynamics is your pent up.
She tracks your being pent up. She decides what strategy to use in relation to your pent upness. Her mindset is primarily about how to avoid it. What's the least I can do and you is what the least I can get in quotation. That's the mindset. That's not even the bodies. Have you approached her when you're not in a state where you think I depend on her for relief and for connection? Both. So that I can be relieved by myself and I can connect with her without this being the central plot.
It's just a question and there's not a prescription. But have you had that experience of decoupling? I think not intentionally but I do think that does happen and because of that or whatever reason I'm not expecting anything. And then sometimes she will initiate actually. Yeah. That does happen. And you don't expect. Right. She has freedom. She has space. She can want because she is not only responding to your wanting.
At this moment when it's polarized like this, there's your wanting and her not wanting. If you can approach her not from a place of that kind of wanting. Then she can get in touch with what do I want rather than just how do I manage what he wants? Which is what she has done how many years together? Twenty. So she's been doing that for about 20 years. Yes. Manage you wanting. Is that resonates? Yeah, it does. Put it in your own words. For me, sex is kind of a chore.
It is something that is expected and it like I have never experienced what he, he, like I sometimes think that he's like exaggerating it just to like make me feel like. This is what you're missing out on in some sense because I have, like I just have never ever felt the need like I'm just kind of like. All right, that was okay, but it definitely was like the way that I feel like it's almost like yeah. And okay is what what happens in your body? Tell me the body.
I mean, it's like a little rush, but it's also very quick. That's the orgasm. Yeah, like it. But the pleasure, the pleasure is not the orgasm, the whole experience. What's it like? What do you, what do you experience? A heart rate increase, a sweaty palm, a state of a rousal, an experience of desire, a closeness to with him, an openness of your body, a change in your breath. I don't know. I think I get a little flush. I don't look at him. Don't talk about sex and look at him.
That's been the problem for me too long. You can look at me or you can look at me. I don't know how to else, like I've told him this before and I think he thinks it's odd as well. But like I can sometimes like orgasm with my mind without doing a single like I can just be sitting here. It's also not. I've never felt that I feel like the peaks that like we talk about, but I don't need to do anything.
So I can just kind of build up enough in my mind and then it kind of like happens and then I'm like, okay. For me, that is actually something very useful for you to know and very powerful. That speaks to the opposite of how you think of yourself. You've decided he's sexual and I'm not. If you can bring yourself to orgasm just with your mind, imagine how sexual you are. There are two simultaneous realities here.
One is that contrary to the way that they have organized themselves, he's sexual, she's not. The fact is that she's orgasmic and she can bring herself to climax just from thoughts. So physically, this is not the issue. But on some level, his needs are too much at the center of her experience. On the other end though, even though she physically is very responsive, it's not of interest to her. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.
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I have a very probably strange relationship with... Because as a whole, I find sex very just like... I usually don't like watching an on television. I don't really like being like around it. Like I kind of just don't want to deal with it. When you watch it, you feel what? Mostly uncomfortable. But you see, that word uncomfortable, I've written it in big. But the uncomfortable has a thousand facets. What is uncomfortable for you? There is... I should be here seeing this. This is something that...
It's private. It's private. I should not be the third party here watching this. So when I watch it, my discomfort is... It's like I get very awkward. It's just like this childish... I think that's the best way to put it. It's very silly, very... I don't know. I know he doesn't like it. But I also don't know how to stop. Is it gross? Yeah. It's like... Like the cringe right now. Is it... Is it gross? Or is it dirty? It is gross. I don't like a lot of... Not just for this.
Like I'm not into any kind of human bodily functions. They're all kind of gross. I've had children. It's kind of a mess. The human body just makes all kinds of mess. I really don't like that. In general, there's a lot of hand... I make him hand wash a lot in between things. Because I can't deal with the idea of that touching me. So yes, it is definitely gross. And when you are on the couch... Like just... When you're cuddling on the couch, is that... I don't mind like that.
That cuddling and touching, like I said, as long as it doesn't require a absolute... Like this is a firm yes now. I'm okay with it. I'm okay, doesn't mean I like it. I enjoy it. It feels good. You know? There's a lot of other things besides... Intolerated, very narrow and... For being as involved with him, it needs more. Not more frequency. Got for bit. More quality. More ease. More enjoyment. Yeah, absolutely. I like to think of myself as a warm person.
But like... I don't think I'm a very touchy, highly-pleased or really sensitive person in general. I definitely am with our children, but I'm not a general a very touchy person and neither were... Or really my parents were either. If we had another conversation, I would have wanted to explore further her aversive responses to the human body, the fluids, to her description of children. and has she noticed about it.
And I also would have wanted to speak further with her and to explore together what she meant when she says, I'm not a touchy, philly person. That is such an expression, but it connotes a whole experience of closeness, connection, boundaries, boundary intrusion. What is her experience of touch or what has been her experience growing up with the absence of touch? Didn't mean a bit about the background. Okay. We'll be here forever. I'm an only child.
My father passed away a little over, I think it's been 10 years, more than 10. It's like 11 or 12 years now. My mother is still around. She lives very close by. Where they're from? They're from Taiwan. Anyway, born? I was born here. They came over for college. My parents did not have a great marriage. I felt like my mother was almost always on the brink of wanting to leave. She did not actually do that until I was in college. And my parents are just weird, they're weird people, I think.
That's another word. These are words that represent worlds. So what is weird for you? My parents are two people that, my mother especially loved work. And when, oh, I'm turning this age now. And if I don't have a baby, I probably won't have a baby. Probably should have a baby. Had a baby. And like the expectation of what a baby was and what a child is was like, I think, completely different from like what my mother especially mentally imagined. She is a very critical person. She's never happy.
Like nothing I did was ever right. Like even my own children are not what she thinks children are. Like it's like she spends time with them and then she has nothing but a litany of complaints which are mostly kids just being children. I see her, talk to her, but I have a thousand strategies and ways to kind of manage and how I want to deal with it. And I mostly just try to limit what I can. Where both of us are not mad at each other. Where I was just thinking.
With your mother, you manage her criticisms. With him, you manage his yearning for closeness. But you're always managing. Yeah, I try to balance. I try to balance it so that like you know what they want and you know to manage them. But there's not enough space for you to ask yourself and what do I want. I don't know what I want. You don't know because partly because there's no space to ask to be curious about the question.
And sexual interest or sexual curiosity or sexual desire involves owning the wanting. Desire is wanting. And you straddle him, you straddle her, you straddle for children. But I'm just noticing that you feel with what these people need, want, feel, think and have to say. So my image as you were talking is to see this body of yours closing because that's a boundary you can create for all their needs to not penetrate you. Because they have a lot of them.
Criticisms, needs, needs, comments, wishes, frustrations. And you tighten and tighten your body. And it becomes wound up and everything else that touches it it bristles because it just says, this is my little world that belongs to me. And everything else stay outside for a minute. You know it's true. Yeah. I'm feeling you as you speak, but I need to know if... Right, like I feel like all day I'm just bouncing around, bouncing what everyone else's things are.
And so like I don't really like know who I am in some ways. I don't think I ever really did because for so long when I was a kid I built up whatever my mom wanted, right? Like what was I supposed to be? And then because I'm an only child, I was very lonely. As a kid because it was either a study or I was stuck with my parents. You know, like I had friends and stuff, but I wanted the family that I have now. I wanted kids and I didn't want them to feel these things and stuff like that.
So I'm very lucky for having a partner that much better than what I saw as marriage for my parents for sure. How was you then? He's okay. He's definitely more affectionate. My mother, but my father was a compulsive gambler. You know, he'd disappear for days and you know, come back in the middle of the night. I could hear them fighting or he'd come in my room crying. Like so it was hard.
I mean, I understand on one hand why my mom wanted to get a divorce because it was a lot to deal with like this and you know, money issues of course. So I get it to a degree like, but it's also hard when you're growing up hearing that all the time too.
Like any kind of like my mom always told me like that's why I'm an only child because she did not have another one because she was afraid that she would have to get divorced and like I was such a hard child to deal with that if she had to have two or three, like how would she manage? My father's gone now. I mean, we had an odd relationship I guess. Like I mean, he was, I mean, I don't know. My parents said they were imperfect people and then together they just made like kind of like
an imperfect like life, right? Like you know, they had different things. He was what? He was, he was strange. My father, he would disappear. He would cry. Like my parents would buy me like my parents always just buy stuff to kind of, you know, if he was gone for a while or if he hit me, then they would buy me like a stereo. Like you know, so it was kind of just this odd life. He also had ADHD like. Yeah, I mean, that's probably why he, that's probably why he gambled.
Yeah. And you think you have it too? Oh, I definitely have ADHD. I'm on medication but I still don't, that's I know if it's perfect. I'm struck by how she talked about so many aspects of her childhood, the loneliness, the absence of her father and the inconsistencies between harshness and then overindulgent stereo systems and between the belligerence, between the parents and the economic tensions.
And I wish I had acknowledged some of that, including, she did say in the middle of this, but I wanted a different family and I've created that and I have four children and I have a fantastic partner with whom I created the marriage that is way different from the one that I grew up with. And I missed all of that. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for Weshud we begin comes from fabric by Gerber Life.
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M-E-E-T fabric.com slash Esther. Policies issues by Western Southern Life Insurance Company, not available in certain states. Prices are subjected to underwriting and health questions. Support for where should we begin comes from Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one platform that you can use to build a website and help people find your adventures. Whether you're seeking a location for your podcast, teaching language courses, or selling handcrafted ceramics,
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you're being physically? My one therapist I mentioned how like that could be like a reason why like I just float out and everything that, especially because it's not something that I'm particularly like engaged or interested in wanting to stay in, right? Like in some sense unfortunately. So that's why I like my mind. Can you take his hands one moment? Sure. And put it somewhere on you where you would like it to be. Turn face each other and probably having. I just want to
do whatever you want it to be. And now put it at the pressure that you would like it to be. If you want close your eyes and do nothing else but see if you can feel that hand on your knee. And then just breathe like deep breath in and you can count for three, two, one as a breath out. He ain't going to do anything. He's not going to ask for anything. It's entirely yours. You can lift it. You can move it. You can keep it there. This is about it's exactly what I want.
You see what makes touch sexual is not where you touch it nor the involvement of genitals. It's where it connects with sensuality, with pleasure, with control, not as in being in control but as in surrendering. It's letting go. That's concept of control. And when we talk about initiating, this is initiating. It's not about foreplay which is five minutes before the real thing and the
real thing isn't of course and you know that it worked because there's an orgasm. That is a very particular script but it's also very narrow script and it's one that is not doing you good at this moment. How is this? Oh this is fine. Like I mean. What? It's like the best. It's the best you have to describe anything in this realm. That's fine. I mean I don't know. Tell me more about fine. I mean I think I probably would like more touch like but I don't like the expectations that come
with it. So it's like like I said like he's always talked about how that's how he feels close and connected and that is not what I need to feel close and connected. Look I know that you you have and it doesn't mean that it's not true but you have over the years each of you told yourself certain things. And the more you say I don't need this. I don't need this. What you insist on persists and you can create a reality with those words but you also do not want to continue
have sex that you grin and bear. No sure. So I think that what may be more helpful at this moment instead of saying I don't I don't I don't he's to say I have not yet I have not yet experienced an openness around touch because I often experience a demand and I don't know yet and I'm a young woman and who knows where I'm going to go it's a part of me I have never explored. I know I'm a D. or I know my mind takes me fast in places but that doesn't it's pieces of information but it's
not pieces of an identity. If you keep saying I'm not I'm not I'm not you don't leave the door open. It's about developing self-awareness. It's not about responding to his pleas. It's about developing a sense of autonomy so that you're not just managing other people's needs. It's about discovering things that you like. Even if there's small mean small is who decides they're going to be big for you.
Now the way you just moved and you moved the mic and you come close to him and you plot yourself against him and you took his hand and you put it exactly around your hip you knew exactly where you wanted it to be. This all of that where gesture upon gesture of somebody who knows who has a sense. The knowing is a sense knowing it's not an intellectual knowing and then owned it. How was that for you? I definitely enjoy like non-sexual touch. I think that's something that
in the last year we've gotten better at. I guess she's never told me how she wants to be touched. Like we've tried. She just did. That's one little thing. I just I believe you. Like we've I know like she likes more pressure. We've tried like massages beforehand which I think helped. I mean it's hard to you know we've tried so much and it all is right it depends on your mood and sometimes something works and sometimes it doesn't but like I feel like that
has helped. Works means what? Works means like gets her like into a headspace to want to have sex. He begins to talk about how much they have explored non-sexual touch but it lasts one sentence. It instantly becomes non-sexual touch meant to make her want to be more sexual with me. So there is no non-sexual touch. She may be more single-minded in how she views herself as non-sexual but so does he. That's why I stop him to ask what do you mean by it works because I had a sense
that it meant it's just a lead-on for the other thing. That thing in and of itself does not really do it for me. What are other ways you can experience closeness? Because there is experience in closeness and then there is alleviating or relieving yourself and the fact that it seems that it helps you go to sleep. It chills you. It relaxes you and you have it in your mind that it has to be with her. It doesn't have to be with her but it just ideally it would be with her.
Yes but ideally it will be with her but probably not nearly. Here is your question. You can have frequency or you can have quality at this moment. If you want quality and you want her to be engaged and you want a partner who is enjoying it and says I want this too then you have to step back. We've kind of tried both and either has worked so that's why we're here. I mean but this was quality. Yes. And this was a very simple what do you like without saying what do you like? It says take my hand
and take it wherever you want it to be. We can do that at home. We can do that on the couch and if it doesn't lead anywhere else it doesn't have to lead anywhere else. Then you go, you take care
of yourself but you want feel taken care of yourself rejected. Yeah I think that's definitely part of it that I'm trying to deal with is that it does feel like rejection and I guess part of the frustration is the best case scenario is fine and you know it's I think yes if we had more quality satisfying for her interactions it would make the times that we didn't easier but that's something we haven't figured out.
I would refer the quality that's where we were having the problems because for me the idea would be obviously we both want to like when it's good it's good right but as a whole I don't know like I just it does not come up in my mind it is not something that like naturally I'd be like oh this is what I would like to be doing right now either. No but you don't have spontaneous arouse. No. No. That's okay and loads of people particularly loads of women have responsive desire.
We're definitely opposite. Yeah so Emily Nagoski in her book come as you are describes it very beautiful you have you are responsive but you're not going to be responsive if you experience the man. You're going to be responsive if there is invitation and even more so you're going to be responsive when the invitation comes from you not from him because it's so hard for you to experience his
as an invitation rather than as a demand as a need. When he needs you and he comes with you with that need that emotional need not just a sexual need it's an emotional need in the language of sex then you can be nice and you can be kind and you can do it because you're taking care of him but you experience nothing pleasurable for yourself except the fact that you feel good about having been nice to him and on occasion you start to resent it too. Very true. Okay so that script
is what is standing in your way at this point. Sometimes we engage in sex because we are aroused sometimes we engage in sex because we have desire but we don't experience the physiological arousal yet just the thought of it is nice I know I feel good but physically in my body I feel nothing yet so I do things with myself and with my partner and I start to experience arousal that comes next
and sometimes I start because I have willingness. If you stayed like that for a chunk of the evening and it was completely completely on your term there's a good chance that you would say this would be a nice thing to do with him for him and with him and it would be willingness no you would still not have any arousal you just would just have a thought in your head but it would be yours and that is what would give it the flavor of desire because it would be self-generated.
He says nothing turns me on more than to see you turn down that's all I would want is to please you they're very few straight women who say that what changes her is what happens to her is how she awakens herself how she ignites herself not what happens to him
and that means that she needs to be able to enter into her body into your body and to experience it pleasurable relaxing inviting no responsibility responsibility for you will be the killer of sex I have to no that's true and I have to because otherwise he's upset and if he's upset then tomorrow
we're going to argue and if we argue then we're not going to be a good family and then our kids are going to see everything that I always promised I would never do in front of my kids yeah that's pretty much how our arguments went yeah give me the sequence yeah I mean it would be a failed
frustrated encounter we would yell we would fight we would sometimes he would storm off you know he I mean we're both cold to each other to be fair like we both get cold but it's a noticeable difference for him I guess in the degrees of like the difference when he's happy and when he's not
and especially with with the frequency thing was it's like okay one day okay two days it's like three is like when like that's about when like I feel like yeah like his limit of being able to and then it's like then it almost becomes like a forced encounter like because we have to now because we've
because what because we've let it kind of slide for like and what happens to you I mean what is so I mean something that like I'm trying to avoid and and maybe doing other things like being close for another ways would help that but yeah I just I feel like that lack of of closeness and that
like that lack of connection and but you want a lingual hmm you feel very close here I watched you right no and I think that's part of it is we've only had that one way to feel that that's what I mean you want a lingual okay I'm sorry I rely on sex yes the only way yeah I'm not saying that you're
not going to wish you had more sex and more frequently than you will but the way that it it pence up inside of you energetically and how you experience it as a complete severing of the tie from her is is acute you need to learn other means to self-suit and to regulate so that you know that a mercy what she experiences is the pressure and the urgency yeah how do I count myself how do I help myself go to sleep how do I not have anxiety because when you can't sleep you get
anxious and then you rely on sex for your anxiety that has not much to do with sex anymore for connection either so do you feel that you can leave with a few things with you yeah yeah I definitely feel like yes we need to find a way to kind of disassociate that and and I would like to feel that
closes I mean that's what I want from our relationship to but I I don't know but okay punctuate yeah see you sue in your positions that you want to constantly reiterate you know your positions by heart yeah don't bother you you can switch roles and you know exactly what the other one's going to say
so it's nice for him to hear I want that and not just because you want that but I want that that's a clear I want statement on it it's beautiful receive it want to try it again without the butt yeah yeah yeah I want the closeness I want us to find a way to have that non-sexual no I appreciate that
and by the way the way he strokes your hip in the last hour is not just affectionate it goes in and out it's affectionate it's sensual it's sexual it's it's beautiful it's pleasurable and you notice it sometimes you don't notice it at other times it's in the body and outside the body inside myself
outside myself and that melody is a very it's one of the many sexual melodies but it is a sexual melody yes and I think I would be more comfortable with it on a regular basis if it didn't always carry stuff with it like it's because yeah here's another way of saying that I love it when I
can sink into it because that's the thing it is that's true yes I like I really do enjoy it for what it is like when it stays what it is and that will at times become an invitation where should we begin with Esther Porelle is produced by magnificent noise we're part of the Vox media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine and the cut our production staff includes Eric Newsom Eva Walsh over Destry Sibli Huette Katana Sabrina Farhi Elinor Kagan Kristen Muller and Julianna
original music an additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin our Esther Porelle and Jesse Baker we'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton Mary Alice Miller Jen Marlar and Jack Saul you deserve to feel your absolute best
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