Sometimes I think a good way to start is for us to listen to your question together and then take it from there. Sure. Yeah. So my question is... How can I get peace or more peace or get more serene with the fact that instead of becoming more and more empathetic for my mother after I just had a kid. I am actually developing more and more resentment. Everyone keeps saying, since I've become a parent, I now understand mine and I'm so grateful. And I have the polar opposites.
I feel like I have a conflictual relationship with my mom. I don't think she would think so, or she would deny it, let's put it this way. And it was conflictual from my side before I became a mom, and now it's been a year. that I gave birth to my son and every day I keep looking at him and I keep thinking, how come could you educate me like that? Like, no, when I see... vulnerable child in front of me I understand less and less and yeah I find that difficult to process
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And I would become more empathetic or that this would help me resolve some things. I mean, it's definitely not why I had a kid, but I was hoping that in the process maybe it would get me closer to her. And that's definitely not the case.
Tell me a little bit more about your relationship with your mom. She takes a huge space in my head and in my heart, although I get... physically more and more away from her I've moved to multiple countries I think I could reach the point where I could have a kid not being close to her because she would have been in the way one way or another Then you realize that the umbilical cord is infinitely elastic. Yeah, definitely. I think what is hard now is I also don't know how to handle her.
my son's grandma. And I think that's where it's difficult coming from here. My parents divorced when I was 10. So my dad is out of the picture. So she's huge. And even in my family, she's huge. She's the glue. really like pivotal for everything is organized around her how many kids are you we're two so i have an older brother he's 11 years older than me but he's from the first marriage
I'm the only child of my parents together. And basically the education was extremely strict. It's never been about trust and it didn't evolve with time. One would think that, you know, me becoming an adult, she could trust me more or she would be less in control and authority. And this is still very much a place she wants to have. I think I just don't deserve that. So how does that play itself out? Can you give me an example? You've said three big things. She's the glue.
She takes up a lot of space in my interior life. No matter how many countries I've gone to, she goes with me. You know, she's in an invisible suitcase. Yeah. But she's right there. I experience her centrality and her wielding of authority as a lack of trust in me when in fact she succeeded quite well. Meaning... I am as responsible as she was hoping I would be. And more, probably. So it's not that she doesn't trust you, but that she may not trust herself that she has done her job.
well and that she needs to be told you've done a really great job but at this point you still think that when she tells you what to do that it means she doesn't trust you whatever idea I suggest, whatever I do, it will always be welcome with suspicion. Yes, but there may be better ways to respond. But tell me more so I understand. I think nowadays the issue is guilt.
That's the main part. It's always my guilt. My guilt being far away, but still, this is basically the only way I've managed to be at peace on a daily basis. But my guilt, my guilt of not wanting her to be close to my kid because I don't want her to have that kind of relationship with my kid, this authority, this violence.
This violence meaning what? Oh, she would scream, she would be very harsh, very hard. There is no way of, like, everything needs to be absolutely... perfect she definitely doesn't understand that kids are kids and sometimes they don't even make mistakes it's just they are being kids and she but she believes in discipline very strongly is that a family tradition I think so. Yeah, I would say so. My mom immigrated, my parents immigrated before. I think there's very much this idea that...
You need to not make any noise. You need to not be seen and you need to behave absolutely perfectly. Perfection was the only way, basically. And for example, she doesn't have a high school degree, but both my brother and I... We went through high school. We were first generation at uni. He's a teacher. I have two PhDs. Like, you know, it's just been endless and it's never enough. It's never been enough. And I just...
I don't want that for my son now. I don't want him to be seen this way. I see how she is with my son. My brother has two kids and she still very much believes that her role is to discipline them and not to be like the grandma. baking cakes with them for example and i i just don't want that but still i find that very hard to own what happens when you are with your little boy How much of that enters that space? It's huge because I think to a certain extent it helps me not...
making the same mistakes, but then I put myself under a huge amount of pressure to not reproduce the same issues. Basically, whenever I would see myself, then I wanted to raise my voice a little bit because of boundaries being crossed. then I'm instantly thinking, is it wrong? Like, should I do completely the other way? But you also evaluate yourself with the same harshness.
That you feel she evaluated you. So she lives inside of you more than you care to. And so while you emphasize guilt and you emphasize resentment, I'm also hearing fear. Oh, yes, very much. Very much. Tell me. But just thinking, for example, that she could once hear this conversation makes me feel scared. Of course. Of the reaction. Very much. But you did it anyway. Yeah. Why? Because someone has to. And I'm this person in my family. I'm the one going, pushing back, trying to change.
patterns, trying to change things. And it's very hard. It's very isolating as well. I want my son to have a better relationship. For example, I don't take love for granted from him. I know he owes me nothing. And I hope that one day when he'll be an adult, he'll choose to keep seeing me. But this is very much the relationship we create. And I don't take that for granted. My mom very much takes that for granted. I've heard her saying...
things like that, for example, to my partner saying, you can easily lose your son, but for example, your daughter, you will never lose. And him thinking, whoa, you're very, very far away from the situation. She takes the relationship we have for granted, no matter how far I go. I call less and less. And it's not to hurt her, it's just really to protect myself. Because any interaction I have with her...
It's difficult. Right. And so what do you want? What would make it better at this moment? I think... Maybe hearing that you don't need to be necessarily close to your mom. I think that's one thing where it's hard. I don't hope that my relationship with my mom is miraculously going to improve. It can improve a little bit. But it's more about how do I just accept that things are just the way they are.
How can I also try to explain to my son when he grows up that we might not see grandma more than twice a year because that's best for everyone. Or that's what I chose to be best for everyone. So when I say fear and you say there is a lot of fear, fear of what? I think of her completely denying my feeling and the experience and just staying. I don't know, very confident of her position and making me feel like I'm the one having a problem or I'm the one inadequate. You know...
You described that you have a conflictual relationship with her. Yeah. Means what? Because that's before you had your boy. That's been there for a long time. And the more you react against her, and the more you try to push her away, and the more you realize that she's right inside of you. So... You don't have to separate as much from her physically as you may want to separate from the one that lives inside of you. I think since my son was born, there have been a lot of...
memories and feeling that re-emerged as well. And I mean, I've been in therapy before. I thought I had done the work, or the most part of the work. Wait till you have a child. Exactly. Now it's not the adult anymore that is just... speaking and feeling sad. It's actually also just the kid and I don't know how to help this one. The kid inside of you. Yeah. Do you have memories of you and your mother in tenderness or in softness or kindness or playfulness? Not really. Not really. I think...
She delegated a lot of this to my brother. As I said, he's 11 years older than me. So he was the one playful. And my parents were so conflictual with each other that there was no space for me. And everything else was then at my grandparents. so i don't have much memories of that and i i don't think we've never with her with her but you had it with your grandparents yeah because what makes
The difference in our lives is when we've had it, even if we have had it with someone else. Yeah. That someone loved us tenderly, gently. playfully sweetly not necessarily unconditionally but loved us yeah and that too lives inside of you and Your grandparents may have been very different with you. You're saying yes, so finish the sentence. They were very different with me as grandparents than they were as parents for my mom. Yes. And I think...
I was hoping this to happen. When I say I was hoping that also with having a kid, we would reconcile some of those things. I was hoping that maybe she would become more tender with my son. And this just doesn't happen. They've seen each other a few times. And it just doesn't happen. I think that's very disappointing for me too. At all or slowly? I don't know. I don't know yet.
Maybe it's not been enough occasions, opportunities. But the yet is very important here. Your mother was raised with a lot of discipline. by people who had certain ideas of how they would establish themselves, of how they would navigate migration, and how they would keep their daughters safe. in how they understood gender and that sentence that you lose your son but you keep your daughter is pervasive across cultures. This is not an original statement she came up with.
And in a way, if your mother looks at it, she probably thinks it worked. I think she does. Right. It worked for her and it worked for you. Look. Here is my daughter, how accomplished she is, how she stayed on track, how she became so competent, etc. And so to my son. She's in an interesting paradox because on the one hand she thinks she succeeded and on the other hand you tell her she was off. You confront, you fight, you scream, you this, you that, but in fact...
There's a wide gate with an open door and she walks in and out of your trip, as they say in French, your guts. And that is more you're doing. And that's where you can make change. Okay. Because when you make that change, your relationship with her will change. Any hint of how I do that? Yeah. Yeah.
But there are two parts to this, you see, because you don't want to be like that. But when you make the slightest mistake... what you consider a mistake, or the slightest thing you don't think is the right way to be or the way you want to be, you actually react to yourself exactly the way she reacted to you. There may be some steps in between. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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I tend to think that if we want to change the other, one of the shortest route is to change ourselves. If you can't change what she does... but you can change how you react to what she does, then what she does takes on a whole new meaning. Sometimes when I say that, people say, but I have to be the one or it's all on me again. I think it's liberating. To be fair, I've tried. And I think it's not even I've tried. That's what I do.
in terms of the behavior I have, but then it's the internal dialogue that is very difficult. Yes, yes. That's where I'm stuck. You have different values. You don't want a mother the way she did. You have a different sense of child-rearing philosophy and maybe of relational and intimate philosophy. But... You are very thoughtful about it. You think about it all the time. You scrutinize yourself as a mom. And so, imagine...
that whenever you think your mother doesn't trust you, it's often because she's afraid, because she's not necessarily always trusting herself. And she really thinks... that she has to hold a tight grip. And so sometimes something very interesting happens when instead of trying to push mom away,
Just get out of my business, get out of my space, get out of my head. We in fact say, I probably have never told you that because in effect you have been telling her the whole time that you dislike what she's done. But along that is also to tell her, you know, when I think about where I got my thoughtfulness and my drive and my diligence. and my convictions. I look at you too. I may have landed very different convictions and a drive for very different things. I planted different seeds.
But I got the seeds from you. It's going to be a tough one. Well, let's first see if it even resonates for you. I haven't sent you to anything yet. Do you think it all came just from you or in fact? See, we get our resources, our strengths. sometimes from very good places and sometimes from very challenging places. The things we dislike the most are what ended up producing inside of us.
Exactly that. Your mothering style comes from your dislike of her mothering style. But you are both equally convinced. Yeah. Hot or cold? Nope. Pretty hot. Pretty hot. You have to do nothing yet. Not to worry. No, I'm pretty hot. I want to see if I can help you step out of your stuckness. Because you've been thinking. the same way for a long time. And it's not really helping you. And there are other truths that exist alongside. Mom, I have to thank you. And this is in your head.
for some of the things that are central in my life and that I attribute to you, even though I made different choices about it. the thoughtfulness I put into it, the importance I attach to it, those things come from you. And I want you to know that because I think you don't always know and trust that you have done well and that you can resign from your job now.
I see. I think this I can do. No, no. We're not talking about doing nothing yet. I just want you to react to it. It's hard to say. It's hard to think. To be fair, because I'm thinking, did it have to be that harsh to reach this point? Yes, yes, yes. So thank is a tough one. Acknowledge part of it. I think this I can. I can. You're absolutely right. I don't want to thank her. I just want to tell her, Mom, I just want you to know that so many of my...
beliefs, my convictions, and my diligence to abide by them is mirrored on you. I'm trying to think how she would react. No, no, no. It's not about how she would react. I have never seen a parent say, I hate what you just said. Okay? You know, basically, this is what they've been wanting to hear forever, is that it landed somewhere. The main piece is toward you. It gives you.
A way to experience a positive identification with your mother when what lives inside of you is a multitude of negative identifications. There's a reason to what I'm saying this. It's not just to be sweet. You need to be able to connect with parts of you that resemble her from a place of acceptance because they're good. Okay. Yeah. Just stay with that. It's okay. Because you fight when you're with her and you cry when you're alone. Loosen your jaw for a moment.
Just open it and loosen it. Because it's very, very tight. And you hold so much. It goes to us. places that are just so deep like thinking there are good things then to like as well that's where it lands and that's yeah harsh good things inside of you yeah that may have come from not such good things between the two of you. Yeah, I think I'm the first one that needs to be convinced by that and work on that. And you can put your other hand over this one.
And just massage the heart. Because you're harsh with yourself. This is a very intuitive moment of tenderness with you. Yeah. And you can breathe right into your hands. Where did you just land? I would be fine to be a little bit more gentle with myself. Without... thinking of her in the mix but more gentle and that's it'd be fine if things are not perfect or because because you can still yeah raise someone
good even if you don't do things perfectly. Is there a question mark at the end of this? Want to talk to my sons? I think... It's not something I'm going to be able to, it's definitely a hard work, but if I can go back to this idea more often, I think life would be a little bit sweeter. one of the ways you go back is you put your hand right it was you naturally your hand came straight to your chest and to your heart and then you put the other hand over it
And then if you want, you put your hands across your arms. And you do it especially when you do something you don't like. And this holding... He says, I'm worthy of love even when I fuck up, basically. I'm a good mom even if I do something that I don't think is the thing that's going to land me in the hit parade.
No, this thing ain't going to damage them for the rest of their life. It's not every little boo-boo becomes the determining factor of their future. Because the point is not to replace one perfection with another. No, it's to make life bearable. I know it's still short, but I thought that one year into that I would have let go on this idea of the perfect mom and I still have not. And it's not very enjoyable.
No, plus here I am having supposedly a conflictual relationship with my mom, but I'm as loyal as can be. Yeah. See, the change doesn't come from keeping the structure but changing the outcome. I mean, similar rigidity, similar dogma, just different religions. The goal is to introduce the flexibility into the religion, to highlight the spirit over the law. I understand. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.
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I like who I was in mom land. I think when I just spend time watching my son for who he is, like not trying to impose a structure or an activity, but just being like... This is you. I just intentionally decide that I'm going to withdraw a little bit and just watch and let him. do his thing on his own, on his term, play with the things he wants and just...
Just enjoy watching that because I find that mesmerizing. And then I just see him explore whenever he does something new that is entirely up to him and that I didn't try to trigger. And I can just see. the pride he has, then that's where I'm like, yeah, that's the kind of parent I want to be, allowing that kind of pride to emerge. I see him as a little animal as well.
It's not been domesticated and then you can just see it grow. And I love seeing that. I think there's so much for me to learn there too. So when I go to observe the animals in the wild... And I bring my open curiosity. And I don't try to impose anything because... If I am with the animals in the wild, there's nothing for me to impose. And I take my binoculars and I watch and I observe and I am enchanted by the...
intricate world I am looking at. So many times you will tell yourself, I'm going in the wild. Not I need to take care of my kid. I'm going in the wild. It's nice. I like that. And you take your binoculars with you. And you remember, in the wild, human beings don't control too much. Even adults. And by the way, the wild has existed long before you came along. And it has been knowing how to structure and regulate itself forever. So have babies.
They need holding and soothing and they need interpreting of the world they live in. Thank you for this one. Which one? The wild. The wild and the binoculars. It's one I will easily remember. We can have a few more. But I was also noticing how every time you feel that something is given to you and that you are receiving, you're putting your hand right on your heart. And that...
also can accompany you. A sense of awe, because babies induce a sense of awe in us, as well as dread. It goes back and forth sometimes. Those are very clear and very practical things I can hold on to. You like that? I definitely do like to be anchored to things. Otherwise, emotions get very intense. And the story in my head goes very, very fast. And I can easily see myself trying to control things and then remember just go back to the wild.
And then we grant. Do you think if you can do more of that with yourself as a mom, that you will be less reactive every time? Your mom comes closer to you because you will actually experience more boundary, which means more clarity around your role and expectations of yourself. I think there's experience, like time and repetition of knowing that what I do with my son is aligned with who I want to be. I was tempted to say it's the right thing, but now I...
just corrected myself. I think more of this will help me be less shaken whenever my mom questions what I do or suggests very strongly that what I do. is not the right way to do. You know, it was a while when I had this intervention that I would do in couples, but I think it can be done probably quite nicely between mom and daughter. If she criticizes you, you can do the defensive justifying. I know what I'm doing. I'm not 20 years old. Stop budging me.
And the reason it isn't useful is because while you're doing that, she's creeping under your skin through the big door. That's part of why it's not useful. It's not that there is anything wrong in what you say. It's just that it doesn't accomplish what you want. It doesn't really establish the boundary. So I used to think, what? What would be one of these other images like going into the wild? And at the moment, the person criticizes you, her.
Instead of saying, stop criticizing me or putting me down all the time, you would say, I really appreciate how you are continuously trying to make me a better person. And if you love, that's a very good sign. It's a dedication to see you, till today, continue to try to make me a better person. I appreciate it.
And inside of you, the rest of the sentence is, and I'll continue to do what I want to do. Then the two shall coexist. Yeah. So instead of you criticizing me, you're putting me down, you're challenging me. it becomes you are continuously trying to make me a better person. Thank you. And honestly, there is nothing to answer after that. This is not for her. This is for you.
This is a boundary making for you. She may or may not like the comment, but it usually stops the conversation. Yeah. Without your having to react. Yeah, because so far, I mean, defensive I've been doing for a while and then the alternative has been to just try to escape. But I would still be boiling inside and I think that's where it's hard versus maybe with this one.
We can move on. I mean, we can try to move on. We need a repertoire of 10 of those. Yeah. Okay? Because you play different songs at different times. You don't have one song on your playlist. Yeah. So give me one of her comments to you. Actually, it's anything I say with the, are you sure? Are you really sure? Which means you're obviously doing the wrong thing. Now, go to the wild.
And go into that playlist and take it from behind and mold it into something else. I think a real one which would be... Because I think it's true is to say, I'm not sure, but I trust that if it's the wrong thing and I need help, I know you'll be there. Wonderful. I think this one is a genuine one. Good. manipulative or trying to yeah yeah I think this I can say great what I would like you to watch is that when you approach it from this place Your body is not activated. You're not...
tight and clenched and ready to fight in order to protect yourself, to prevent her from entering when she's seeping through. The purpose of this answer is the boundary, the buffer. the envelope around you. And even when she says, Tu es sûre? You sure? You can always say, That sentence of yours has really been instrumental in building my confidence. Now, be clear, none of it is manipulative and none of it...
is wrong, mistaken. In every sentence you make, there is a truth, a truth. There are other truths, but they must be true. And it is. Her questioning of you. is in part what has created the drive inside of you. Just? Curate. Yeah. We can go in many different directions today, but since you like the practical and the usable... The first part here is about getting you unstuck. You're stuck. And you say, what's another way I can deal with this? And so instead of...
getting her off your back, you're going to respond in a way where she's not on your back. Yeah. I think a hard thing is whenever I get compared to her. And my first reaction is to be upset and then to question, is this true? And I think that's one of the things that is hard to accept sometimes, like part of the anxiety, part of the control.
Some of those things, when I hear you just like your mom, it drives me nuts. And I would like to reach a point where it doesn't really drive me nuts. And I can just think, yes, for those things, I took that some. I'm very different and that's okay. Who says that? My partner from time to time. He knows how to get to you. Yeah. But...
What makes me upset is the reaction I have, you know, like think, am I really like my mom? Like, would it be that bad to be like my mom? And then you have to remember the difference between... the raw material and the outcome. You want to find some positive identification, and it's not hard to find. It's absolutely there.
If you have someone who constantly questions you, you become someone who, like you, this is not always the case, who is A, very, very driven, and two, constantly questioning herself. Yeah. And her questioning herself is sometimes annoying and sometimes probably a source of her discernment. Yeah. You don't want to turn this into a rosy thing, but you have sources of positive identification if you think about it in a different way than the linear, narrow lens.
The piece around child-rearing is the perfect example. I have a very different philosophy, but I am very convinced about it. I operate from conviction. So does she. We have different convictions. But I definitely know that my conviction came from the same raw material as hers, even though I want to do it very differently. Not because it's right, but because it's that way that I want to try it. I see. Yeah, and she definitely was always a very... How to say...
She's been a very present mom, not a perfect one, but she's been there. The reason we look for the positive identification is not because... You want to turn your perception of your mother upside down. It's because you want to learn to be kinder with the parts inside of you. It's the self-acceptance. It's not just accepting her.
It's that by seeing her differently, you get to accept you more. I've been seeing her from a very negative perspective for a very long time. There's a lot of work to do there. That's why we focus on the self-acceptance and on a retelling of the story in a way where it's not all black and white. Good. and bad, but where you get to see that some of those things that you've taken, even though you've landed in a very different place, the process that you've engaged with.
is in part from her. And that's okay. It's actually the way we grow up. Actually, just hearing it's okay feels good. Thank you. You know why all of this is super important beyond your own learning to accept you? It's because at some point your little boy is going to do things you don't like. Welcome to motherhood. And that's the moment because you've already intimated that. And if you are into the, you must do my way because I'm busy proving to my mother that my way is the right way. Yeah.
I would like to free him from this. Of course. That's why we're here. I'm well aware. But that's why I'm linking this. Because this is how this stuff passes on. This is how the intergenerational thread weaves itself. You, my boy, need to prove that I'm doing the right thing because that's what I'm busy telling my mother. Yeah. This is where I often say, and then he's recruited for a play that he never auditioned for. And on this, this I've heard. I like very much, but it's like, it's like.
What story has he just entered that he didn't apply to be in? And to be fair, when you say that, what I hear is also like, it must be nice to have a mom that feels like somewhat comfortable in her own skin. And definitely it wasn't the case for mine. I can try to tell him be free or be happy. You're perfect the way you are. If I don't do that for myself, how can he believe that? You got it. Good. There it is. 20 more years to go. Oh, I have adults. I'm not done. I have a ton to learn.
You know, if it helps you to know that... This is going to happen anyway. I live the same wild as you in the wilderness together. Just so you know, you do... some things very differently. And then you realize that you do some things that you had promised yourself you would never do. And you say, can't believe I'm saying this, I'm doing this. But...
Instead of just going and thinking, that's exactly what I should do, you then go and you tell them, I really didn't like that I did this or said this. And that's where you become different. Not because you avoided the whole thing, but because you were able to take responsibility about it. Can I call you back in 10 years or 15? We'll have a date. Okay, great. Thank you very much. You're welcome.
If you are a regular listener to Where Should We Begin, you know that Esther loves to end a session asking people to write to her. She wants to know what stayed with them. what prompted new conversations, what worked, what didn't work. And in the spirit of following up, a few weeks after the session that you heard this week with a new mom, she sent us a note.
And she did start a conversation that she really needed to have with Esther's urging. So if you are interested in where her story is going, you can follow up at Esther's Office Hours. on Apple subscriptions later this week. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from Two Points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, it could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call.
Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estheraparel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Atten.
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Support for the show comes from New York Magazine's The Strategist. Every year around the holidays, there's always those people that you struggle to find the right gift for.
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